Hi all,
I've recently picked up a 23 flhtk with the 114 M8.
Overall it's a pretty cool bike, however I have a question about its performance.
I've completed running it in carefully, and with about 1500 ks on it, I thought I'd see how it goes.... I should add it's completely stock. The motor runs out of usable power around 4000rpm. There is no way in hell it would get anywhere near the redline of 5.5k.
A question for those of you that have owned or ridden a stock 114 - Is that normal? (That the engine has no power past 4k)
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: pauly on October 16, 2023, 10:15:42 PMHi all,
I've recently picked up a 23 flhtk with the 114 M8.
Overall it's a pretty cool bike, however I have a question about its performance.
I've completed running it in carefully, and with about 1500 ks on it, I thought I'd see how it goes.... I should add it's completely stock. The motor runs out of usable power around 4000rpm. There is no way in hell it would get anywhere near the redline of 5.5k.
A question for those of you that have owned or ridden a stock 114 - Is that normal? (That the engine has no power past 4k)
Thanks
Pauly
All stock Harleys since conception have been slugs past 4k.
Hi BigT,
Thanks for the reply. It's been a while since I had a new Harley . Last was an 07 Softail which wasn't as bad as this one! (In that I never thought there was a problem with it because it was missing it's top end).
Pauly
Quote from: BigT on October 17, 2023, 06:00:33 AMAll stock Harleys since conception have been slugs past 4k.
A tune can help with that. In order to keep the warranty you might be able to get a "stage 1" flash tune from the dealer. Not sure what is offered from the Moco in that regard.
And then of course there is the route of changing cam and a tune. A friend did their "torque" cam and it woke up quite a bit, keeping warranty.
It should rev to limiter. My Nephew is a HD tech and says go back to dealership
Quote from: JSD on October 17, 2023, 02:55:15 PMIt should rev to limiter. My Nephew is a HD tech and says go back to dealership
I agree. But be aware it has a pretty aggressive speed limiter, so if you are trying to run it out in an upper gear, it may be hitting that.
Hi Hoss,
I'm hoping to stay stock for a while with this one. I'll see what the dealer comes up with tomorrow.
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: Hossamania on October 17, 2023, 02:47:49 PMA tune can help with that. In order to keep the warranty you might be able to get a "stage 1" flash tune from the dealer. Not sure what is offered from the Moco in that regard.
And then of course there is the route of changing cam and a tune. A friend did their "torque" cam and it woke up quite a bit, keeping warranty.
Hi Jed,
Ah that's what I wanted to hear. Thanks for that. It's in for its first service tomorrow so I'll see what the dealer has to say.
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: JSD on October 17, 2023, 02:55:15 PMIt should rev to limiter. My Nephew is a HD tech and says go back to dealership
Hi again Hoss,
Nah.. I was not doing a really high speed. Would have been less than 150ks.
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: Hossamania on October 17, 2023, 02:59:39 PMQuote from: JSD on October 17, 2023, 02:55:15 PMIt should rev to limiter. My Nephew is a HD tech and says go back to dealership
I agree. But be aware it has a pretty aggressive speed limiter, so if you are trying to run it out in an upper gear, it may be hitting that.
What gear were you in? It should easily pull to the rev limiter in 4th gear & below.
I wouldn't run it to 5000rpm with a stock EPA compliant tune. Isn't the stock WOT AFR like 14.5:1?
That's crazy when max power is achieved @ 12.8 to 13.2. Yeah, I've heard all the " engines today are built for it" nonsense.
Pretty sad when a 114cu.in. can't even hit 85hp in stock form. Talk about neutered.
Quote from: 60Gunner on October 18, 2023, 09:14:19 AMI wouldn't run it to 5000rpm with a stock EPA compliant tune. Isn't the stock WOT AFR like 14.5:1?
That's crazy when max power is achieved @ 12.8 to 13.2. Yeah, I've heard all the " engines today are built for it" nonsense.
Pretty sad when a 114cu.in. can't even hit 85hp in stock form. Talk about neutered.
stock tune commands 11.8 AF at WOT, zero issues running an M8 to the limiter on the stock tune
Quote from: pauly on October 16, 2023, 10:15:42 PMHi all,
I've recently picked up a 23 flhtk with the 114 M8.
Overall it's a pretty cool bike, however I have a question about its performance.
I've completed running it in carefully, and with about 1500 ks on it, I thought I'd see how it goes.... I should add it's completely stock. The motor runs out of usable power around 4000rpm. There is no way in hell it would get anywhere near the redline of 5.5k.
A question for those of you that have owned or ridden a stock 114 - Is that normal? (That the engine has no power past 4k)
Thanks
Pauly
something is clearly wrong as a stock M8 engine will run cleanly to the 6k rev limiter, however they do nose over power wise in the upper RPM's
As long as he's talking about gears 1-4, yes. Speed governor limits them to ~110 MPH.
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 18, 2023, 10:23:45 AMAs long as he's talking about gears 1-4, yes. Speed governor limits them to ~110 MPH.
correct, however he noted "
I was not doing a really high speed. Would have been less than 150ks" which would have been well below the speed limiter
Hi Dttjglide,
I tried it in 3rd and 4th I believe. I tried it in third this morning on the way to the dealers and it pulled to 5k ok. ....the only difference is that in my previous test I had ridden about 300ks, when for this test I'd ridden about 40 ks.
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: DTTJGlide on October 18, 2023, 01:55:23 AMWhat gear were you in? It should easily pull to the rev limiter in 4th gear & below.
Hi 60gunner,
Well.. it is what is is eh. I'd love it to idle like a shovel, handle like a Buell, and last like a knucklehead, but it's a great bike anyway. I tested it again on the way to the dealers and it got to 5k ok.
Thanks
Pauly.
Quote from: 60Gunner on October 18, 2023, 09:14:19 AMI wouldn't run it to 5000rpm with a stock EPA compliant tune. Isn't the stock WOT AFR like 14.5:1?
That's crazy when max power is achieved @ 12.8 to 13.2. Yeah, I've heard all the " engines today are built for it" nonsense.
Pretty sad when a 114cu.in. can't even hit 85hp in stock form. Talk about neutered.
Hi Jamie,
It got to 5k all right this morning on the way to the dealers. The dealer tells me it's all good. Hope it never becomes an issue again, but at least it's been logged as a problem before the first tune.
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: Jamie Long on October 18, 2023, 10:21:58 AMQuote from: pauly on October 16, 2023, 10:15:42 PMHi all,
I've recently picked up a 23 flhtk with the 114 M8.
Overall it's a pretty cool bike, however I have a question about its performance.
I've completed running it in carefully, and with about 1500 ks on it, I thought I'd see how it goes.... I should add it's completely stock. The motor runs out of usable power around 4000rpm. There is no way in hell it would get anywhere near the redline of 5.5k.
A question for those of you that have owned or ridden a stock 114 - Is that normal? (That the engine has no power past 4k)
Thanks
Pauly
something is clearly wrong as a stock M8 engine will run cleanly to the 6k rev limiter, however they do nose over power wise in the upper RPM's
Could be a symptom of sumping.
Hi Hoss,
That's what I was thinking too. The fact that I'd done 300 or so ks when the problem showed itself may indicate that. I guess all I can do is ensure the dealer knows about the issue, and (if it shows itself again) will take an active approach to resolving it.
Thanks
Pauly.
Quote from: Hossamania on October 19, 2023, 04:23:26 AMCould be a symptom of sumping.
Quote from: Hossamania on October 19, 2023, 04:23:26 AMCould be a symptom of sumping.
With the latest and greatest HD pump? Surely you jest... ;p.
I'm kidding of course. I wouldn't trust the moco to ever get it right when it comes to oil pumps and sumping.
This latest pump has burned up a few builds already due to sumping despite what most claim as to solving it.
If the OP did indeed sump so easily in a stock bike...?
I've only done a handful of m8 builds with another sitting here. It won't leave with an HD pump.
Well I've asked the dealer to note it down, and next time I have a long ride I'll check after 300ks, if the bike is not revving again. Hopefully any issues will be found and fixed in the warranty period!
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: 60Gunner on November 01, 2023, 11:22:41 AMQuote from: Hossamania on October 19, 2023, 04:23:26 AMCould be a symptom of sumping.
With the latest and greatest HD pump? Surely you jest... ;p.
I'm kidding of course. I wouldn't trust the moco to ever get it right when it comes to oil pumps and sumping.
This latest pump has burned up a few builds already due to sumping despite what most claim as to solving it.
If the OP did indeed sump so easily in a stock bike...?
I've only done a handful of m8 builds with another sitting here. It won't leave with an HD pump.
Hi all
Update on this issue - it's no longer an issue, however drinking oil became a problem.
I've been unable to replicate the lack of performance in 4000 ks, and I've tried in numerous conditions.
What did seem to become an issue was oil consumption. It seemed that every few hundred ks, I'd loose another couple of notches on the dipstick. Anyhoo, about 2 weeks ago, I loaded the wife and some luggage, let her know I was going to hammer it a few times, and did exactly that, a number of times over a 600 k ride. The oil consumption has stopped.
So, for those of you that are suffering oil consumption with your m8, and haven't tried aggressively seating your rings, turn off the traction control, and give it a go. YMMV but it seems to have worked for me.
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: pauly on December 23, 2023, 02:30:45 PMHi all
Update on this issue - it's no longer an issue, however drinking oil became a problem.
I've been unable to replicate the lack of performance in 4000 ks, and I've tried in numerous conditions.
What did seem to become an issue was oil consumption. It seemed that every few hundred ks, I'd loose another couple of notches on the dipstick. Anyhoo, about 2 weeks ago, I loaded the wife and some luggage, let her know I was going to hammer it a few times, and did exactly that, a number of times over a 600 k ride. The oil consumption has stopped.
So, for those of you that are suffering oil consumption with your m8, and haven't tried aggressively seating your rings, turn off the traction control, and give it a go. YMMV but it seems to have worked for me.
Thanks
Pauly
Happy for you Pauly
Quote from: pauly on December 23, 2023, 02:30:45 PMHi all
Update on this issue - it's no longer an issue, however drinking oil became a problem.
I've been unable to replicate the lack of performance in 4000 ks, and I've tried in numerous conditions.
What did seem to become an issue was oil consumption. It seemed that every few hundred ks, I'd loose another couple of notches on the dipstick. Anyhoo, about 2 weeks ago, I loaded the wife and some luggage, let her know I was going to hammer it a few times, and did exactly that, a number of times over a 600 k ride. The oil consumption has stopped.
So, for those of you that are suffering oil consumption with your m8, and haven't tried aggressively seating your rings, turn off the traction control, and give it a go. YMMV but it seems to have worked for me.
Thanks
Pauly
That doesn't happen. Your rings were seated long before that.
Quote from: wfolarry on December 24, 2023, 04:49:54 AMQuote from: pauly on December 23, 2023, 02:30:45 PMHi all
Update on this issue - it's no longer an issue, however drinking oil became a problem.
I've been unable to replicate the lack of performance in 4000 ks, and I've tried in numerous conditions.
What did seem to become an issue was oil consumption. It seemed that every few hundred ks, I'd loose another couple of notches on the dipstick. Anyhoo, about 2 weeks ago, I loaded the wife and some luggage, let her know I was going to hammer it a few times, and did exactly that, a number of times over a 600 k ride. The oil consumption has stopped.
So, for those of you that are suffering oil consumption with your m8, and haven't tried aggressively seating your rings, turn off the traction control, and give it a go. YMMV but it seems to have worked for me.
Thanks
Pauly
That doesn't happen. Your rings were seated long before that.
Or not. In any case doing this now really changes nothing. Rings are seated or no seated (and never will be) by this state.
Okydoky - SOmething else changed on that ride then. I don't know what, but the oil consumption has stopped.
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: ultrafxr on December 26, 2023, 03:03:54 PMQuote from: wfolarry on December 24, 2023, 04:49:54 AMQuote from: pauly on December 23, 2023, 02:30:45 PMHi all
Update on this issue - it's no longer an issue, however drinking oil became a problem.
I've been unable to replicate the lack of performance in 4000 ks, and I've tried in numerous conditions.
What did seem to become an issue was oil consumption. It seemed that every few hundred ks, I'd loose another couple of notches on the dipstick. Anyhoo, about 2 weeks ago, I loaded the wife and some luggage, let her know I was going to hammer it a few times, and did exactly that, a number of times over a 600 k ride. The oil consumption has stopped.
So, for those of you that are suffering oil consumption with your m8, and haven't tried aggressively seating your rings, turn off the traction control, and give it a go. YMMV but it seems to have worked for me.
Thanks
Pauly
That doesn't happen. Your rings were seated long before that.
Or not. In any case doing this now really changes nothing. Rings are seated or no seated (and never will be) by this state.
I have a Road Glide Limited 2021.
Regarding the oil consumption.
I understand this result is considered not possible.
I was experiencing the same thing up to about 6000 miles.
I figured what the heck and gave it a try the same way the OP did and spent a weekend hammering it up to redline and down-shifting with high revs.
I had the same results as the OP.
I also have a Road King 2021 and have not had the same issue.
I love it when the impossible becomes possible! ;-)
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: L88 on January 07, 2024, 07:53:50 AMI have a Road Glide Limited 2021.
Regarding the oil consumption.
I understand this result is considered not possible.
I was experiencing the same thing up to about 6000 miles.
I figured what the heck and gave it a try the same way the OP did and spent a weekend hammering it up to redline and down-shifting with high revs.
I had the same results as the OP.
I also have a Road King 2021 and have not had the same issue.
Quote from: pauly on January 31, 2024, 02:00:13 PMI love it when the impossible becomes possible! ;-)
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: L88 on January 07, 2024, 07:53:50 AMI have a Road Glide Limited 2021.
Regarding the oil consumption.
I understand this result is considered not possible.
I was experiencing the same thing up to about 6000 miles.
I figured what the heck and gave it a try the same way the OP did and spent a weekend hammering it up to redline and down-shifting with high revs.
I had the same results as the OP.
I also have a Road King 2021 and have not had the same issue.
This link (http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm) will support your findings. It's something we have discussed here before. It's the method I have always used successfully. I admit when I started to do building hot rod engines back in the early 70's, it was more because I was impatient and fell into it mostly by accident. The first couple of oil changes at 50 then 100 or so, getting it up to temp while accelerating and decelerating, cooling it off when up to temp (heat cycles) and doing it again and it happens on its own. Look at the pics of the pistons and the light bub will come on.
If you really want to learn something about rings Total Seal has quite a few videos on YouTube that explain a lot.
Quote from: ultrafxr on December 26, 2023, 03:03:54 PMQuote from: wfolarry on December 24, 2023, 04:49:54 AMQuote from: pauly on December 23, 2023, 02:30:45 PMHi all
Update on this issue - it's no longer an issue, however drinking oil became a problem.
I've been unable to replicate the lack of performance in 4000 ks, and I've tried in numerous conditions.
What did seem to become an issue was oil consumption. It seemed that every few hundred ks, I'd loose another couple of notches on the dipstick. Anyhoo, about 2 weeks ago, I loaded the wife and some luggage, let her know I was going to hammer it a few times, and did exactly that, a number of times over a 600 k ride. The oil consumption has stopped.
So, for those of you that are suffering oil consumption with your m8, and haven't tried aggressively seating your rings, turn off the traction control, and give it a go. YMMV but it seems to have worked for me.
Thanks
Pauly
That doesn't happen. Your rings were seated long before that.
Or not. In any case doing this now really changes nothing. Rings are seated or no seated (and never will be) by this state.
I build a high horsepower sportster engine for a lady customer ,she wanted it quickly ready to go on a long trip trough Scandinavie. I rode the bike with Shel rotella 10w40 for the first 400 miles and then changed to the oil to synthetic 20w 50 and let her ride off . She came back after 2000 miles and told me the bike used a lot of oil and had bleu smoke ...rings not seated properly because to early use of the synthetic oil and not enough riding in miles. Changed the oil again to Shell Rotella and hit the bike for 100 miles ,the hard way , high rpm's and very fast riding with a lot of rpm changes up and down ....the bike has now 7000 miles and runs like hell , the breather tube is completely dry and she runs synthetic oil . Ring seating can be done but you have to know what you are doing .
Update - Its burning oil again. The data suggests about 300ml every 4000 Ks at the moment.
I told the dealer its a problem and they told me Harleys instructions on it - IE; "M8 motors are within spec if they use up to 1 litre of oil per 250 Ks." - The dealers hands are tied.
What a crock of :turd:
None of my other cars, bikes or marine vessels have ever used anywhere near that amount of oil unless there was a severe problem.
So - given its a 2023 model - suggestions appreciated. I have re-routed the breathers away from the inlet but asides from that the bike is (motor/exhaust/intake) dead stock.
Thanks
Pauly
Thanks
Pauly
I don't call that fit for purpose Pauly, you might have a case under our consumer protection laws?
Hi Hilly13,
I'm in Australia. The government protections here are a front and actually achieve very little for the people. They are more to give people the illusion of protection. "Fit for purpose" is very debatable, particularly with a vehicle that will travel many thousands of ks, as long as you keep putting oil in it!
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: Hilly13 on Yesterday at 10:17:46 PMI don't call that fit for purpose Pauly, you might have a case under our consumer protection laws?
I just did a quick conversion, your oil use converts to about 1/3rd of a quart to 2500 miles. I don't find that to be outrageous, if a little annoying. That puts it at about a quart between oil changes if you go 7500 miles, still not outrageous, almost normal.
Does it do it all the time, or just certain conditions, like a lot of back road lazy riding and also high speed long distance travel?
In that case I miscalculated. It's more than that. And it sure is annoying. When I'm back on my PC, I'll see where I stuffed up.
Quote from: Hossamania on Today at 06:15:13 AMI just did a quick conversion, your oil use converts to about 1/3rd of a quart to 2500 miles. I don't find that to be outrageous, if a little annoying. That puts it at about a quart between oil changes if you go 7500 miles, still not outrageous, almost normal.
Does it do it all the time, or just certain conditions, like a lot of back road lazy riding and also high speed long distance travel?
I also don't think 1 litre for every 250 kms is anywhere near normal or acceptable.
Didn't HD have a "1 qt/1000 miles" is a non warranty issue?
I know at one point Ford's was 1 qt/500 miles was acceptable.
Quote from: pauly on Today at 05:50:45 AMHi Hilly13,
I'm in Australia. The government protections here are a front and actually achieve very little for the people. They are more to give people the illusion of protection. "Fit for purpose" is very debatable, particularly with a vehicle that will travel many thousands of ks, as long as you keep putting oil in it!
Thanks
Pauly
Quote from: Hilly13 on Yesterday at 10:17:46 PMI don't call that fit for purpose Pauly, you might have a case under our consumer protection laws?
I'm in Aussie as well mate, a bloke on the Aussie forum had a go with one of the brizzie HD shops, his was rust, he won in the end, was a long fight and they did the non disclosure clause thing so he couldn't say exactly only that he was happy with the result and will never buy another Harley, haven't heard from him since so I guess he ment it.