HarleyTechTalk

Technical Forums => EVO 1340 => Topic started by: JW113 on May 20, 2018, 10:49:46 AM

Title: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on May 20, 2018, 10:49:46 AM
One thing that drives me nuts with the Evo 5 speed is that it is nearly impossible to shift from 2nd to neutral. Older BT 4 speed, XL 4 speed, even TC 5 speed, no problem they all just snick right into neutral from 2nd with a slight bit of pressure on the level. Evo 5sp, no way, jumps straight to 1st. When I had my '91 apart fixing a broken shifter pawl spring, I kind of remember why this is. Seems the way the dentents are cut into the drum it just skips over the neutral detent.

Anyway... I want to fix this. Question: will the TC 5 speed shift drum fit into a Evo 5 speed? If not, then does the Baker smooth shift kit allow you to get into neutral from 2nd?

thanks,
JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Diver625 on May 20, 2018, 06:23:35 PM
I don't have the answer to your question but I know if I shut mine off neutral is easy to find.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on May 21, 2018, 12:40:39 AM
same thing.trikes up at the hd mech for different pipes and said its next to impossible getting neutral from 2nd.you have to go to 1st first then neutral even then it can be difficult.hes going to check it out but basically said thats how they are.i thought the evo boxes were a lot better.not very happy.even my 4sp shovel is better.the only thing i like is the hydro clutch.why didnt hd rectify this?
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JC 92FXRS on May 21, 2018, 12:47:12 AM
JW, curious as to why you want get N from 2nd...just a question is all.
I can hit N in from 4th if I'm not aggressive enough on the up-shift. Blown a couple of shifts in all gears doing that.
Cheers, jeff
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Breeze on May 21, 2018, 04:47:10 AM
My 1992 Dyna owners manual states that you can't shift to neutral from 2nd. I don't remember if there was a explanation. I can look it up if wanted. It never bothered me, cuz I never go that way, always to 1, then N.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on May 21, 2018, 07:36:10 AM
Why? Because when I roll up to a stop light, I am always in 2nd. Seems like a total waste of time and clutch to have to shift down to 1st just to get into neutral. All of my other bikes pop right into neutral from 2nd easy as pie. Evo 5 speed won't. Where's the logic in that?

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Pete_Vit on May 21, 2018, 08:02:43 AM
I get lucky SOMETIMES and am able to get neutral from 2nd, when I do...I know It's gonna be a good day   :hyst:
a very light touch seems to work best  :up:
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: ecir50 on May 21, 2018, 08:59:21 AM
to answer your question yes the drum is a swap but not without all other associated parts.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on May 21, 2018, 02:55:56 PM
Quote from: Breeze on May 21, 2018, 04:47:10 AM
My 1992 Dyna owners manual states that you can't shift to neutral from 2nd. I don't remember if there was a explanation. I can look it up if wanted. It never bothered me, cuz I never go that way, always to 1, then N.
so are all evos like this. thank you
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on May 21, 2018, 03:00:08 PM
Quote from: JW113 on May 21, 2018, 07:36:10 AM
Why? Because when I roll up to a stop light, I am always in 2nd. Seems like a total waste of time and clutch to have to shift down to 1st just to get into neutral. All of my other bikes pop right into neutral from 2nd easy as pie. Evo 5 speed won't. Where's the logic in that?

-JW
im with you jw .at least the trike makes it a bit easier to put up with but still anoying
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Deye76 on May 21, 2018, 04:09:58 PM
"will the TC 5 speed shift drum fit into a Evo 5 speed? "
Yes, with the gear set. Just installed a low mileage 5 spd gear set and drum from my 2004 Roadglide (6 spd install @ 8K) into my FXR trans case. Clutch cover, and drum cover fit no problem. I like the stop on the shift lever in first & fifth. Energy One clutch, neutral super easy to find. Wish I had the coin to backcut those gears. Someday.
I agree with you JW, like costing up to a stop light and a 2nd gear tap into neutral.

Edit: "The latest model 5 speed shift drum will work fine with the earlier gearsets."
I didn't know that, thanks.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Dan89flstc on May 21, 2018, 05:23:44 PM
The latest model 5 speed shift drum will work fine with the earlier gearsets.

You will also need to change to the latest shift pawl/shaft, and also you will need to replace the shift shaft bushing in the case.

This is the setup I have on my `89 Softail, shifting feels much more precise, but I have never tried getting into neutral from 2nd gear.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: rageglide on May 29, 2018, 08:32:58 PM
Semi old post... but I've run a Baker drum in my '94 softail for close to 20 yrs and it drops into neutral from 2nd.  Was cheap upgrade back then, not sure about now.  new pillow blocks and a new drum.   Love it.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: K4FXD on June 03, 2018, 04:34:45 PM
Heck sometimes I can get neutral when the motor is running.  :hyst:

I know no help  :soda:
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Hossamania on June 04, 2018, 04:44:32 AM
I never could get from 2nd to neutral on my '95 Heritage, but didn't worry about it too much either.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: moose on June 04, 2018, 05:17:30 AM
why would you want neutral sitting at a light    what if you have to get out of the way real fast  that ASSumes that you have left your self a way out
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on June 04, 2018, 05:18:31 AM
Not a deal breaker by any stretch, just an annoyance because all of my other scoots easily drop into neutral except this one. I took a look at what it would take to switch the TC parts needed into the Evo trans, pretty expensive. So I think the reality is buy a Ultima 6 speed for my RK and use it's 5speed guts in the Evo, or like Bob suggested, go Baker.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on June 04, 2018, 05:21:39 AM
I always sit at a light in neutral. Why wear out the clutch release bearing? You'd be amazed how fast I can drop it to 1st & go, although in the past 50ish years of riding, never had a situation where I "had" to do that.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on June 04, 2018, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: JW113 on May 20, 2018, 10:49:46 AM
One thing that drives me nuts with the Evo 5 speed is that it is nearly impossible to shift from 2nd to neutral. Older BT 4 speed, XL 4 speed, even TC 5 speed, no problem they all just snick right into neutral from 2nd with a slight bit of pressure on the level. Evo 5sp, no way, jumps straight to 1st. When I had my '91 apart fixing a broken shifter pawl spring, I kind of remember why this is. Seems the way the dentents are cut into the drum it just skips over the neutral detent.

Anyway... I want to fix this. Question: will the TC 5 speed shift drum fit into a Evo 5 speed? If not, then does the Baker smooth shift kit allow you to get into neutral from 2nd?

thanks,
JW

Yes, the newer ('02 and up) TC five speed stuff will bolt into any five speed case. I have done this many times. The drums are pretty much the same up to '01. The '02 and up drum and pawl are great upgrades. I prefer them over the Baker units (I know, blasphemy). Even took a Baker drum out of my red FXR to put in the newer TC stuff.

The '02 drum, pillow blocks, pawl and pawl case bushing have to be replaced together, the pawl set screw can also be replaced with the new fixed position type. The original five speed top cover and neutral sensor can be retained but will indicate neutral in neutral and fifth gear.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: tomfiii on June 04, 2018, 12:03:03 PM
The later twinkie cover has the neutral switch offset slightly ,so no neutral light in 5th.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Deye76 on June 04, 2018, 04:08:34 PM
"neutral sensor can be retained but will indicate neutral in neutral and fifth gear. "

:up: I don't mind the N light in 5th, with a larger motor in a FXR, I can be in 5th without trying or realizing, and risk a lugging situation.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on June 27, 2018, 03:07:53 PM
in what year did hd retify this. so what im reading a later model drum will fix this thanks
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on June 27, 2018, 03:20:22 PM
did you fix your problem jw 113
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on October 03, 2018, 03:18:50 AM
getting neutral from 2nd would be good but as said next to impossible but ive got used to getting neutral from 1st is quiet easy if done gently but thats on the trike
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on October 03, 2018, 07:52:38 PM
No arguement that getting into neutral from 1st is easy. My arguement is that it's totally unnecessary to have to go into 1st to get into neutral. My TC, Shovelhead, and Ironhead all snick right into neutral from 2nd, no problem at all. The Evo won't. Just pisses me off, ya know?

And no, have not done anything with it yet. I see a 5 speed gear set on Ebay, including shift drum, for $100. I pinged and asked what year, the response was "the guy told me it was from an 06". Okay......

Any suggestions on how to tell if this is REALLY a late TC 5 speed or not? Does the shift drum have some telltale signs that distinguishes it from the earlier version? Hate to throw a $100 bill in the garbage!

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: rageglide on October 03, 2018, 08:49:24 PM
Almost positive it's a shift drum thing.  5 Speed is a 5 speed.  HD did a few things with later 5 speeds (besides the positive stop, less likely to overspin drum).  Change the drum and blocks I'm sure your evo will shift like your RK.  Buy the complete set, cheaper than buying just the shift drum and pillow blocks.  If the gears are junk bfd.  If bearings are junk, bfd r/r em
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on October 03, 2018, 08:53:57 PM
my shovels good too.id hate to waste $100 to but it might be a good price to take the risk
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: rageglide on October 03, 2018, 09:01:15 PM
My shovel hits neutral darn near any direction lol   But 1st or 2nd either one, easy peasy.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: tomfiii on October 04, 2018, 12:46:43 PM
I  drove friends updated trans and all associated parts and it feels weird that the shifter stops all movement when shoving up in 5th and down in first after those gears .
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 01, 2019, 10:50:13 AM
It has been a while since I asked about this, but have finally moved on it. Rather than try to round up the stock HD 2000-2006 parts which I know would work, I took a gamble and went with the Baker smooth shift kit, and replaced the shifter pawl as well. Hope to fire it up this weekend to see if the money/effort was worth it, to be able to shift to neutral from 2nd. Fingers crossed...

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Pete_Vit on March 01, 2019, 12:29:00 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 01, 2019, 10:50:13 AM
It has been a while since I asked about this, but have finally moved on it. Rather than try to round up the stock HD 2000-2006 parts which I know would work, I took a gamble and went with the Baker smooth shift kit, and replaced the shifter pawl as well. Hope to fire it up this weekend to see if the money/effort was worth it, to be able to shift to neutral from 2nd. Fingers crossed...

-JW
:up:
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on March 01, 2019, 04:01:26 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 01, 2019, 10:50:13 AM
It has been a while since I asked about this, but have finally moved on it. Rather than try to round up the stock HD 2000-2006 parts which I know would work, I took a gamble and went with the Baker smooth shift kit, and replaced the shifter pawl as well. Hope to fire it up this weekend to see if the money/effort was worth it, to be able to shift to neutral from 2nd. Fingers crossed...

-JW
can you post the outcome.i eventually want to put a reverse on my trike but will have to get a later model 5sp as mine is the early series and wont fit.aparently theres only a couple of models i can use, mid 80s that will work before they went to rubber mounted thanks
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 11, 2019, 06:58:39 PM
Just took the bike for a spin. Although it was not a huge amount of work to install, my impression of the Baker shift drum:   :crook:

The ONLY reason I swapped it in was to get from 2nd to neutral, and the Baker sure does not. Just like the stock one. I had asked the guys there several times about this before I bought it and could not get an answer. I rolled the dice, got snake eyes, money down the drain. Damn. Back to cruising Ebay for a 2002-2006 stock drum...

:emsad:

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on March 11, 2019, 07:27:56 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 11, 2019, 06:58:39 PM
Just took the bike for a spin. Although it was not a huge amount of work to install, my impression of the Baker shift drum:   :crook:

The ONLY reason I swapped it in was to get from 2nd to neutral, and the Baker sure does not. Just like the stock one. I had asked the guys there several times about this before I bought it and could not get an answer. I rolled the dice, got snake eyes, money down the drain. Damn. Back to cruising Ebay for a 2002-2006 stock drum...

:emsad:

-JW

Along with that '02-'06 drum, you will also need the pawl and the longer case bushing. The new drum is not compatible with the old pawl. Have used this setup in all of my FXR builds. I even tore apart the trans in my red/white bike to replace the Baker stuff with the late model TC stuff.

Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 11, 2019, 07:49:44 PM
While swapping the drum, I also replaced the pawl assembly with the Baker version to get rid of that hairpin spring. Is that too also not compatible with the 02-06 drum?

thanks,
JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on March 11, 2019, 08:51:09 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 11, 2019, 07:49:44 PM
While swapping the drum, I also replaced the pawl assembly with the Baker version to get rid of that hairpin spring. Is that too also not compatible with the 02-06 drum?

thanks,
JW

Unfortunately it is not. The Baker stuff and the '02-'06 harley stuff are not interchangeable. they have to be used as matched sets. The '02-'06 pawl requires a a longer bushing in the case. It will be a bunch of work, but well worth it. To swap out the bushing in the trans case, the inner primary will have to come off. Enjoy.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on March 12, 2019, 04:19:02 PM
WOW all apart again ?
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 12, 2019, 06:55:09 PM
Hey Turbo, msg received. Your mail box is full.

:SM:

Dave: no, not all apart. Not yet anyway. Am collecting the parts to pull the Baker drum out and install stock late 5 speed drum as Turbo had advised way back at the top of this post. Some people just don't listen.
:doh:

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on March 12, 2019, 08:08:22 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 12, 2019, 06:55:09 PM
Hey Turbo, msg received. Your mail box is full.

:SM:

Dave: no, not all apart. Not yet anyway. Am collecting the parts to pull the Baker drum out and install stock late 5 speed drum as Turbo had advised way back at the top of this post. Some people just don't listen.
:doh:

-JW

Fixed.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on March 13, 2019, 01:40:41 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 12, 2019, 06:55:09 PM
Hey Turbo, msg received. Your mail box is full.

:SM:

Dave: no, not all apart. Not yet anyway. Am collecting the parts to pull the Baker drum out and install stock late 5 speed drum as Turbo had advised way back at the top of this post. Some people just don't listen.
:doh:

-JW
looks like your on track now.wont the primary have to come off.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 13, 2019, 02:33:14 PM
Turbo, do you know off hand what changes were made to the 02 and up drum? My 01 Road King shifts to neutral from 2nd. Part number for that ends in 00. So was a 2000 up part. Assuming until 02. Any idea what year the drum was changed to allow it if it was before 2000?
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on March 13, 2019, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: cheech on March 13, 2019, 02:33:14 PM
Turbo, do you know off hand what changes were made to the 02 and up drum? My 01 Road King shifts to neutral from 2nd. Part number for that ends in 00. So was a 2000 up part. Assuming until 02. Any idea what year the drum was changed to allow it if it was before 2000?

I suggest you look at some pictures of the drums. The differences will be obvious. Ebay is a good source for images. FWIW, I have never paid attention to weather one of my transmissions would shift into neutral second. Honestly, and being a prick, that's a functionality that I dont give a "Potty mouth" about. Look at the drums. The differences will be obvious.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: ecir50 on March 13, 2019, 03:38:04 PM
most notably its hollow and lighter.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 13, 2019, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: turboprop on March 13, 2019, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: cheech on March 13, 2019, 02:33:14 PM
Turbo, do you know off hand what changes were made to the 02 and up drum? My 01 Road King shifts to neutral from 2nd. Part number for that ends in 00. So was a 2000 up part. Assuming until 02. Any idea what year the drum was changed to allow it if it was before 2000?

I suggest you look at some pictures of the drums. The differences will be obvious. Ebay is a good source for images. FWIW, I have never paid attention to weather one of my transmissions would shift into neutral second. Honestly, and being a prick, that's a functionality that I dont give a "Potty mouth" about. Look at the drums. The differences will be obvious.
But he does, so in his interest my question was in regards to why should he  limit his search to the 02 and up drum. And right it's not a big spread in years and the old number has been superseded to the 02 suffix. But if someone says hey I got a drum out of my 01 I'm going to throw out and it fits the functionality he wants. Is there a reason to turn it down?
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on March 14, 2019, 05:25:43 AM
Quote from: cheech on March 13, 2019, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: turboprop on March 13, 2019, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: cheech on March 13, 2019, 02:33:14 PM
Turbo, do you know off hand what changes were made to the 02 and up drum? My 01 Road King shifts to neutral from 2nd. Part number for that ends in 00. So was a 2000 up part. Assuming until 02. Any idea what year the drum was changed to allow it if it was before 2000?

I suggest you look at some pictures of the drums. The differences will be obvious. Ebay is a good source for images. FWIW, I have never paid attention to weather one of my transmissions would shift into neutral second. Honestly, and being a prick, that's a functionality that I dont give a "Potty mouth" about. Look at the drums. The differences will be obvious.
But he does, so in his interest my question was in regards to why should he  limit his search to the 02 and up drum. And right it's not a big spread in years and the old number has been superseded to the 02 suffix. But if someone says hey I got a drum out of my 01 I'm going to throw out and it fits the functionality he wants. Is there a reason to turn it down?

For the sake of everyone following this discussion, why dont you post some pictures of the various year groups. Then we can talk. You have do a little work yourself.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Dan89flstc on March 14, 2019, 03:41:49 PM
 
Quote from: ecir50 on March 13, 2019, 03:38:04 PM
most notably its hollow and lighter.
The main difference is the roller detent feature to hold it in gear. 

The change came out on 2000 Softails, 2001 for the rest of the Big Twins.

[attach=0,msg1287112]
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 14, 2019, 04:43:05 PM
Quote from: turboprop on March 14, 2019, 05:25:43 AM
Quote from: cheech on March 13, 2019, 09:25:00 PM
Quote from: turboprop on March 13, 2019, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: cheech on March 13, 2019, 02:33:14 PM
Turbo, do you know off hand what changes were made to the 02 and up drum? My 01 Road King shifts to neutral from 2nd. Part number for that ends in 00. So was a 2000 up part. Assuming until 02. Any idea what year the drum was changed to allow it if it was before 2000?

I suggest you look at some pictures of the drums. The differences will be obvious. Ebay is a good source for images. FWIW, I have never paid attention to weather one of my transmissions would shift into neutral second. Honestly, and being a prick, that's a functionality that I dont give a "Potty mouth" about. Look at the drums. The differences will be obvious.
But he does, so in his interest my question was in regards to why should he  limit his search to the 02 and up drum. And right it's not a big spread in years and the old number has been superseded to the 02 suffix. But if someone says hey I got a drum out of my 01 I'm going to throw out and it fits the functionality he wants. Is there a reason to turn it down?

For the sake of everyone following this discussion, why dont you post some pictures of the various year groups. Then we can talk. You have do a little work yourself.
I made no request for you to do any work for me or on the subject! Hence the "off the top of your head".  So don't take it as such that I'm asking you to research for me! Was just a general ask as it seems you've researched the subject but not in regards to what he wants out of the newer drum and a little bit of curiosity on my part. So if you knew "off the top of your head", seems simple. If you don't know you don't know, I for one don't and as I haven't got any need to do what he's trying to obtain got no real work to do. If I was Id for sure research it and share with the class.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: ecir50 on March 14, 2019, 07:31:23 PM
Here is the numbers I had on hand when did the hollow drum swap.

shifter drum (HD 33383-02)
shifter mechanism  (HD 34972-02B)
shifter mechanism sleeve  (34979-00)
gear selector centering screw (HD 34978-00A)
neutral switch (33904-00A) normally open, white one.

Recently took it out, playing with a N1 and a Pingel right now.

Good BAKER Gearheads video on the neutral switch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48MefjRh97c

Jims Shifter Shaft Sleeve Tool 1664
http://www.jimsusa.com/pdf/instruction-sheets/1664-IS.pdf





Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: kd on March 14, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
I think the N1 solves all of the problems finding neutral and ordered it in my GrudgeBox.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 15, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
FWIW, I have no problems finding neutral on any of my bikes. Even with an Ironhead! The point of my complaint with the Evo 5 speed is how to get into neutral. Can only be done from 1st, whereas any of the other four bikes I own can be done easily and reliabily from 2nd.

I get it, this is no big deal to many/most people, to have to shift into 1st to get into neutral. The absolute primary reason I hate that is because I'm a big city boy, ride daily to work and back through 25+ stoplights, some of them very long. I'm not one to sit at a 2-3 minute stop light holding the clutch in, so I pop into neutral, preferably as I roll up to the stop. Which, 99 times out of 100, is in 2nd gear. So why shift to 1st to simply get in to neutral? Clearly Harley-Davidson agrees, as all of their big twin bikes since 2000 allows you do get from 2nd to neutral (as did the Shovelhead 4speed before it). It's the Evo 5 speed that does not. And I have no idea how the Evo Sportster 5 speed trans does, but the Ironhead 4 speed also goes easily from 2nd to neutral.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 15, 2019, 03:18:29 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 15, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
FWIW, I have no problems finding neutral on any of my bikes. Even with an Ironhead! The point of my complaint with the Evo 5 speed is how to get into neutral. Can only be done from 1st, whereas any of the other four bikes I own can be done easily and reliabily from 2nd.

I get it, this is no big deal to many/most people, to have to shift into 1st to get into neutral. The absolute primary reason I hate that is because I'm a big city boy, ride daily to work and back through 25+ stoplights, some of them very long. I'm not one to sit at a 2-3 minute stop light holding the clutch in, so I pop into neutral, preferably as I roll up to the stop. Which, 99 times out of 100, is in 2nd gear. So why shift to 1st to simply get in to neutral? Clearly Harley-Davidson agrees, as all of their big twin bikes since 2000 allows you do get from 2nd to neutral (as did the Shovelhead 4speed before it). It's the Evo 5 speed that does not. And I have no idea how the Evo Sportster 5 speed trans does, but the Ironhead 4 speed also goes easily from 2nd to neutral.

-JW
I'm with ya JW113, I like that fact also. For the same reasons. As I've ridden and owned a Evo of that nature. Just the hollow, roller arm detented shift drum supported in the ball bearing pillow blocks has been in play since the 2000 Softails. And all through this thread it's claimed 02 up is the fix. But in actuality if you come across a take out from a 2000 up Softail you're in business. Now there is a 02 up revision to the shift drum which supersedes the earlier drum. It's not the fact it's hollow, nor roller arm detented. I don't have any first hand idea what the revision was nor held the old drum and the revised in my hand. I did search a little, didn't really come up with anything eye catching, nor trust any Ebay pictures as an actual representation of the part number it's claimed to be. So I thought maybe Turbo Knew as he seems well versed and knowledgeable, so I asked  and you see where that went.
Oh well, Hopefully someone that is aware can chime in just for the sake of the differences and how well the revision improves it or what the intent of the revision was.
Best of luck!
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: ecir50 on March 15, 2019, 03:36:14 PM
don't understand why this matters since the part number now is -02. Harley got rid of the -00 for a reason obviously. 
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 15, 2019, 03:49:38 PM
Quote from: ecir50 on March 15, 2019, 03:36:14 PM
don't understand why this matters since the part number now is -02. Harley got rid of the -00 for a reason obviously.
Yeah, everything Harley changes ends up better.  :scratch:
Just for the sake of knowing the differences would be one. The other is, I don't think he's wanting to roll down to the dealer and get all the revised parts new. A nice used setup off of Ebay would be way more economical and it does what he wants out of it. And firsthand I have a 01 Road King since new, never been into the trans, so it has -00 drum. 65,000 beat the "Potty mouth" out of miles and shifts fine still!
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: ecir50 on March 15, 2019, 04:03:07 PM
Yeah OK but the -02's are plentiful and cheap so no need to look for one out of a -00 from a softail.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: david lee on March 16, 2019, 02:53:44 PM
Quote from: rageglide on October 03, 2018, 09:01:15 PM
My shovel hits neutral darn near any direction lol   But 1st or 2nd either one, easy peasy.
my shovel is the same but you have to be moving
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 17, 2019, 05:40:30 PM
Quote from: ecir50 on March 15, 2019, 04:03:07 PM
Yeah OK but the -02's are plentiful and cheap so no need to look for one out of a -00 from a softail.

My 2000 up reference wasn't meant as he should specifically look for a 2000 Softail.
As this thread was pretty much solved within 10 post, anything after that was just tidbits of info and discussion. And the 02 up intrigued me and prompted me to research lightly and made me aware of the 02 up revision. And that research didn't really net any major differences to the drum. So as there are many knowledgeable people on here I figured someone was aware of the revisions and any improvement they made to the shift setup if any and could recite them as easily as their birthdate. Simple as that.
For what it's worth if anyone goes to the dealer there is this part number: 33386-02 CAM SHIFTER/LEVER KIT, w/ 11342, 33301-00A, 33383-02, 34972-02B & 34978-00.
And it's what they give you if you order a drum for the earlier Twincam bikes. Comes with the drum, shift lever, and one of the pillow blocks. So the other pillow block would also need to be bought.
But onto the 02 up. If a guy reads this and it makes him want to update his Evo 5 speed. So he's at the swap meet, ask the seller at the table if he's got any 02 up shift drum setups. The seller replies no, but I got a 2000 Softail take out or maybe a 2001 FLT takeout. Then the guy that read this thread says that isn't going to work, the HTT thread says 02 up. But that's not the case. If he buys either of those is he going to get the smoother shifting, lighter, roller arm detented, ball bearing drum? YEP Is it going to allow him to go down to neutral from 2nd? YEP Is it the latest revised drum? NOPE
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 08:24:56 AM
So I've received the late 5 speed drum, blocks, & shift arm from ebay, and the trans top cover arrived yesterday. One curious thing though, the part number on the inside is ground off, and from what I can tell, it does not look any different than the Evo style cover. It's been said that with the TC drum and Evo cover, neutral light comes on in neutral and 5th gear. So the neutral switch is relocated on the TC trans cover, right? Is it in a drastically different locoation than the Evo?

I did ping the seller and ask WTF is up with the part number ground off, will probably send it back.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on March 19, 2019, 11:04:50 AM
Quote from: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 08:24:56 AM
So I've received the late 5 speed drum, blocks, & shift arm from ebay, and the trans top cover arrived yesterday. One curious thing though, the part number on the inside is ground off, and from what I can tell, it does not look any different than the Evo style cover. It's been said that with the TC drum and Evo cover, neutral light comes on in neutral and 5th gear. So the neutral switch is relocated on the TC trans cover, right? Is it in a drastically different locoation than the Evo?

I did ping the seller and ask WTF is up with the part number ground off, will probably send it back.

-JW

Post a pic of the cover. The sensor on both covers is in a very similar location, but there are external differences between the two.

I think I have a cover you can have if yours is not correct.
(Admins dont get your panties in a wad. Not selling).
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 02:31:17 PM
Sorry, I'm lazy!
:SM:

Here are the pix that are on ebay. And indeed I can see in one of them that the p/n is ground off. Don't understand what that's all about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin-Cam-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-00-06-Softail-P-N-34541-00-2/172397075527?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Hossamania on March 19, 2019, 02:59:27 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 02:31:17 PM
Sorry, I'm lazy!
:SM:

Here are the pix that are on ebay. And indeed I can see in one of them that the p/n is ground off. Don't understand what that's all about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin-Cam-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-00-06-Softail-P-N-34541-00-2/172397075527?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

-JW

Maybe it's hot and he thinks it's a serial number?
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 19, 2019, 03:14:30 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 02:31:17 PM
Sorry, I'm lazy!
:SM:

Here are the pix that are on ebay. And indeed I can see in one of them that the p/n is ground off. Don't understand what that's all about.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Twin-Cam-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-00-06-Softail-P-N-34541-00-2/172397075527?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

-JW


Is that the one he indeed sent you? One pic just seems blurry, but appears number there. Maybe sandblasted, the 34543-00 is the part number on that 2nd picture
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: ecir50 on March 19, 2019, 03:17:17 PM
I appears you have the right one. Notice in below examples the distance between the recess area for the neutral switch. Also the later model has a has a large flange on the front between the two front holes.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Drag-Specialties-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-for-87-99-Harley-Touring-Softail/302948191180?epid=1511821509&hash=item46891e8bcc:g:vNEAAOSwF5Vb4dXb

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Drag-Specialties-Chrome-Transmission-Top-Cover-98-06-Harley-Touring-Softail-FLHX/132978357633?hash=item1ef620b581:g:~p8AAOSwbURcgBzL

I used the early model cover on the drum swap as you are doing and the neutral light did come on in 5th. There is a good bit of movement when cover is loose so may have been able to tweak it when fasten to not allow the 5th neutral. Kinda got used to it like that and just left it alone. Now when I went to a N1 noticed internally the covers are different too The early cover interfered with the drum, could have clearanced but the later model fit without doing so. Sorry haven't tried the later cover with the drum swap but you should be ok if have later cover.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 19, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
And for the sake of everyone following this discussion, I had some extra time, got my assignment done as previously directed in this thread and going to post some pictures.  :hug:
It appears the later drum had an extra flange to tie the shift pins together. Must of had some issues with bending or them flexing.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 19, 2019, 03:22:22 PM
And for extra credit I have some cover pictures and differences I seen.  :hug:
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Deye76 on March 19, 2019, 04:30:43 PM
Well done!
Note: the early cover is compatible with a later drum.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 08:48:15 PM
Nice work Cheech, but in fact the one I have here is not like either of those two in your pictures. Compare this picture of the inside view to two inside views you posted. Note the gasket surface. This one is almost perfectly rectangular. And note the placement of the injection gates. And the part number of this one has been clearly ground off with a grinder, he scarred one of the ribs next to the part number with the grinder. Why would somebody go to the trouble to do that?

I have no idea what I have, and the seller has not responded yet.

[attach=0]
[attach=1]

I guess I'll also dig around on ebay and try to find one that looks the same.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 19, 2019, 09:01:42 PM
Well I think I know why it does not look like the *stock* HD part, and why the part number is ground off. From what I can tell, it is V-Taiwan p/n 43-0504.. Which, by the way, can be had brand new for LESS than I paid for this supposedly OEM part. Time to contact ebay and bitch...

-JW

Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: cheech on March 19, 2019, 09:04:19 PM
If you bought the exact one in the link that you posted earlier and he sent that. That's clearly not what was represented in the ad then. Total BS. Seems a need to dispute. Appears aftermarket to me. Its missing all the other markings the 2 OEM show on the inside also. And shaky as the switch recess is narrow as the Early OEM
LOL, you were posting as I was.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Deye76 on March 20, 2019, 07:16:05 AM
Ebay is a crap shoot. Actually buying the correct ~ one is safer. I have a aftermarket clutch release trans end cover on my FXR, as good as any OE. Have been hearing the aftermarket inner primary cases are OK too. Sometimes you have to buy foreign parts to keep these older models on the road.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on March 20, 2019, 07:52:29 AM
Much more often than not Ebay has been OK, and very often the ONLY place you can find hard to find parts. Yes, I've had to use aftermarket parts on occasion, but what burns me about this transaction is the deception. I try to avoid V-Tiwan parts at all cost, since 99% of anything that I've ever bought from that company is now in the landfill. There appears to be quite a few of the real deal for these trans top covers on ebay, I'm guessing many of them from guys converting their 5 speed to 6 speed. Rather have the real deal anyday over aftermarket. The only reason I'm chainging the trans top is to relocate the neutral switch so it don't come on in 5th. I can't trust V-Tiwan to get the switch hole in the correct location. They are incredibly half-ass at anything that requires precision.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on September 15, 2019, 02:51:42 PM
Well this story has a happy ending. Since it was screaming hot this weekend, I figured what the heck, might was well go out into the SOUTH FACING shop, sweat my can off, and swap the shift drum. While at it, I also changed the rear pulley back to a 70T. Took most of Friday and half of Saturday, but it's all back together and just went for a shake down cruise. YAY! It snicks right into neutral from 2nd gear now. Time to start thinking of the next annoying little personality quirk to improve.

:baby:

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on September 15, 2019, 03:12:16 PM
Quote from: JW113 on September 15, 2019, 02:51:42 PM
Well this story has a happy ending. Since it was screaming hot this weekend, I figured what the heck, might was well go out into the SOUTH FACING shop, sweat my can off, and swap the shift drum. While at it, I also changed the rear pulley back to a 70T. Took most of Friday and half of Saturday, but it's all back together and just went for a shake down cruise. YAY! It snicks right into neutral from 2nd gear now. Time to start thinking of the next annoying little personality quirk to improve.

:baby:

-JW

You swapped in the late TC style drum and pawl?
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on September 15, 2019, 03:20:11 PM
Yup.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: turboprop on September 15, 2019, 03:46:54 PM
Quote from: JW113 on September 15, 2019, 03:20:11 PM
Yup.

-JW

I think I have  discussed this before on this page. I build about a dozen five speed transmissions every year. Most of them are for FXRs in my buddies bikes but that doesn't matter. I initially bought into the Baker drum and pawl update but eventually realized that my stock '05 bagger shifted much better than the gear set in one of my bikes that had the Baker stuff. Like you, I eventually bit the bullet and pulled the Baker stuff in favor of the late model TC.  Every transmission I have built since then has the late TC drum and pawl. I also have the gears back cut, and micro polished.

Glad to hear you found success after biting the bullet on this.
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: JW113 on September 15, 2019, 05:25:02 PM
Exact-a-mundo, I had installed the Baker kit, which is what I just pulled out of it. I pinged Baker multiple times, asking if this kit allowed shifting from 2nd to neutral, which was my main concern. All I got back was nonsense, how much better my trans would shift with their kit. Which, by the way, did not turn out to be true, and they never would answer if their kit allowed shift to neutral from 2nd. It DOESN'T. Same as stock EVO trans. And it also did not eliminate the false neutral between 3rd and 4th. Am very happy with this stock TC drum, does exactly what I need it to, and so far, no false neutrals either.

-JW
Title: Re: 2nd to Neutral
Post by: Deye76 on September 16, 2019, 06:03:07 AM
"Am very happy with this stock TC drum, does exactly what I need it to, and so far, no false neutrals either."
:up:

My thanks to turboprop for turning me on to the 98' & later stuff. The 3.15 primary ratio is so much more enjoyable, starting, and highway speeds.