New wheel bearings won't spin

[Heinz]

 I've put in many wheel bearings over the years and I have run into an issue that I haven't seen before. Bike is 2010 CVO Ultra Classic. I  Removed old wheel bearings, rear wheel, and they came out easy enough. I first installed the right wheel bearing, the ABS one, and put it in until it bottomed out. Then I put the sleeve in made sure it was straight and installed the left bearing until it bumped into the sleeve. Easy enough so far. The sleeve was set really straight but I put the axle in all the way through just to perfect the sleeve alignment. After install neither of the bearings spin or move with my fingers. Never had that happen before.  I'm currently installing a new engine and transmission and the swingarm is off (waiting for parts) so I can't do a test by installing the wheel and spinning it. Thoughts?

[tommy g]

I have a nice installer tool I purchased from Georges Garage. After several installations my experience has been the same as yours and to date no issues.

[Scotty]

Think about it you are trying to spin the inside of the bearing that when mounted does not move!
The center is held still and the outside turns.
Just mount the wheel without the brake and belt and it will spin like normal.

[Heinz]

Think about it you are trying to spin the inside of the bearing that when mounted does not move!
The center is held still and the outside turns.
Just mount the wheel without the brake and belt and it will spin like normal.

I see what you are saying and it makes sense but the service manual says to replace the bearings "... if there is drag, rough rotation, abnormal noise or anything unusual." How can you determine those factors if you can't spin the bearing?

[Heinz]

I should also point out that I bought this OEM wheel 2 years ago and this is the first time I've replaced bearings on this particular wheel. Furthermore, admittedly these bearings were a lot harder to get out than others that I have removed from other wheels. It took a lot of strength and manpower to get the wrench to move and at the time I was blaming it on my old age. But putting the new ones in with a little anti-seize coating they went in like a hot knife through butter.

[borno]

The rubber seals on the bearings will cause some drag especially when new. Probably what is going on.

[les]

So, your gut tells you "something ain't right"?  Then it probably isn't with the experience you have with installing wheel bearings.  It could be that you accidentally pressed the inner race too hard against the tube.

[Ohio HD]

Were the bearings put in by a proper wheel bearing press, or tapped in?   

[Heinz]

Were the bearings put in by a proper wheel bearing press, or tapped in?

Jims Tools wheel bearing remover/installer.

[Heinz]

So, your gut tells you "something ain't right"?  Then it probably isn't with the experience you have with installing wheel bearings.  It could be that you accidentally pressed the inner race too hard against the tube.

Les, you motivated me to act. I removed the left bearing. The right bearing spun freely. I replaced the left bearing with a new one and was very sensitive to stop once I felt any resistance at all with the spacer. Now both bearings spin. I must have put just a tad too much force against the spacer in the initial installation. Just one less thing to worry about even though the redo may not have been necessary.

[Coyote]

I'd bet you wasted a perfectly good bearing. 

[rbabos]

So, your gut tells you "something ain't right"?  Then it probably isn't with the experience you have with installing wheel bearings.  It could be that you accidentally pressed the inner race too hard against the tube.

Les, you motivated me to act. I removed the left bearing. The right bearing spun freely. I replaced the left bearing with a new one and was very sensitive to stop once I felt any resistance at all with the spacer. Now both bearings spin. I must have put just a tad too much force against the spacer in the initial installation. Just one less thing to worry about even though the redo may not have been necessary.

No more then torquing the axle nut would do.
Ron

[Coyote]

No more then torquing the axle nut would do.
Ron

Exactly. 

[Scotty]

So, your gut tells you "something ain't right"?  Then it probably isn't with the experience you have with installing wheel bearings.  It could be that you accidentally pressed the inner race too hard against the tube.

Les you are not correct in this......When you torque the wheel the center will now be pressed in away from the outside of the bearing put more stress on it the necessary.
I have discussed this with a lot of people and pulled the bearings out of wheels and put them in and did a lot of checks and the bearings that last the longest are the ones where the installer is torqued up to the wheel axle specifications.
I don't care what other people do but after a raft of bearing failures on late model HD's after following advice on this forum about putting in the bearing so it just touches the inner spacer I found that information to be wrong or 

[rbabos]

So, your gut tells you "something ain't right"?  Then it probably isn't with the experience you have with installing wheel bearings.  It could be that you accidentally pressed the inner race too hard against the tube.

Les you are not correct in this......When you torque the wheel the center will now be pressed in away from the outside of the bearing put more stress on it the necessary.
I have discussed this with a lot of people and pulled the bearings out of wheels and put them in and did a lot of checks and the bearings that last the longest are the ones where the installer is torqued up to the wheel axle specifications.
I don't care what other people do but after a raft of bearing failures on late model HD's after following advice on this forum about putting in the bearing so it just touches the inner spacer I found that information to be wrong or 

While on the topic, I don't remember exactly but think it was Jims tool that was incorrectly machined to correctly press or apply the correct pressure points on the bearing as to not separately load the outer race against the inner. Nothing like paying top dollar for a fk up tool and expecting correct results. I'm sure it's not just me that noticed this tool error.
Ron

[Heinz]

I'd bet you wasted a perfectly good bearing. 

Trust me, it's not the first time I've pissed my money away on harley parts.

[PoorUB]

The bearing installer I have has a recess on the one washer. No clue why, I feel that a flat surface driving the inner and outer race at the same time is necessary for the second bearing. I flip the washer over and use the flat side to drive the bearing. maybe the OP has a similar screwy tool. I have also seen where the sleeve gets slightly off and the bearing does not get driven in far enough. I have considered getting a piece of tubing slightly smaller than the ID of the bearing to help guide the sleeve and bearings.

In this case it sounds like the second bearing was pressed in too far. If it were my bike I might have taken the chance and tried to pull it out a RCH.

[Coyote]

The bearing installer I have has a recess on the one washer. No clue why, I feel that a flat surface driving the inner and outer race at the same time is necessary for the second bearing. I flip the washer over and use the flat side to drive the bearing. maybe the OP has a similar screwy tool. I have also seen where the sleeve gets slightly off and the bearing does not get driven in far enough. I have considered getting a piece of tubing slightly smaller than the ID of the bearing to help guide the sleeve and bearings.

In this case it sounds like the second bearing was pressed in too far. If it were my bike I might have taken the chance and tried to pull it out a RCH.

Exactly what I do.

[attach=0]

[rbabos]

The bearing installer I have has a recess on the one washer. No clue why, I feel that a flat surface driving the inner and outer race at the same time is necessary for the second bearing. I flip the washer over and use the flat side to drive the bearing. maybe the OP has a similar screwy tool. I have also seen where the sleeve gets slightly off and the bearing does not get driven in far enough. I have considered getting a piece of tubing slightly smaller than the ID of the bearing to help guide the sleeve and bearings.

In this case it sounds like the second bearing was pressed in too far. If it were my bike I might have taken the chance and tried to pull it out a RCH.

There in lies the problem with the tool and not paying attention can cause problems. Pressing the first bearing in there is no issue with the tool design but pressing the second bearing in, the first bearing should be either supported on either both inner and outer or just the inner. Never ever the outer part of the bearing.  Sleeve goes in and second bearing is pressed in pressing on both inner and outer at the same time. Beware of the tool at this stage. I think you can flip it over to flat surface. This way there is no pressure difference between inner and outer races on either side so all you are doing is making contact on the inner spacer. Once contact is made and the spacer is square to the faces of the bearings inner races, you can press your balls off, or at least what clamping the axle nut would give. There will be no unwanted loading at the bearing balls this way. That's usually what kills them as in short life span. Anyway, that's my 2c
Ron

[rbabos]

The bearing installer I have has a recess on the one washer. No clue why, I feel that a flat surface driving the inner and outer race at the same time is necessary for the second bearing. I flip the washer over and use the flat side to drive the bearing. maybe the OP has a similar screwy tool. I have also seen where the sleeve gets slightly off and the bearing does not get driven in far enough. I have considered getting a piece of tubing slightly smaller than the ID of the bearing to help guide the sleeve and bearings.

In this case it sounds like the second bearing was pressed in too far. If it were my bike I might have taken the chance and tried to pull it out a RCH.

Exactly what I do.

[attach=0,msg1280385]

That's a good idea.
Ron

[Hilly13]

The bearing installer I have has a recess on the one washer. No clue why, I feel that a flat surface driving the inner and outer race at the same time is necessary for the second bearing. I flip the washer over and use the flat side to drive the bearing. maybe the OP has a similar screwy tool. I have also seen where the sleeve gets slightly off and the bearing does not get driven in far enough. I have considered getting a piece of tubing slightly smaller than the ID of the bearing to help guide the sleeve and bearings.

In this case it sounds like the second bearing was pressed in too far. If it were my bike I might have taken the chance and tried to pull it out a RCH.

Exactly what I do.

[attach=0,msg1280385]

That's a good idea.
Ron

It is and I can't believe it never occurred to me 

[PoorUB]

I looked quick, Schedule 40 PVC is 1.040" OD. Cut a piece just short of the distance between the outer sides of the bearings, then split it with a fairly wide kerf. It should just fit snug into 1" or a bit more kerf and it will fit in 25MM bearings.

[Coyote]

 [attach=0]

[attach=1]

[Heinz]

There in lies the problem with the tool and not paying attention can cause problems. Pressing the first bearing in there is no issue with the tool design but pressing the second bearing in, the first bearing should be either supported on either both inner and outer or just the inner. Never ever the outer part of the bearing.  Sleeve goes in and second bearing is pressed in pressing on both inner and outer at the same time. Beware of the tool at this stage. I think you can flip it over to flat surface. This way there is no pressure difference between inner and outer races on either side so all you are doing is making contact on the inner spacer. Once contact is made and the spacer is square to the faces of the bearings inner races, you can press your balls off, or at least what clamping the axle nut would give. There will be no unwanted loading at the bearing balls this way. That's usually what kills them as in short life span. Anyway, that's my 2c
Ron

Ron, your explanation makes a lot of sense and I'm sure it has made a lot of readers think about how they install wheel bearings. I attached a picture here of a component of my kit and you can see the installer tool favors pressure on the outside because it is countersunk slightly on the inside portion. I wonder what the thinking was with the engineers who designed this? You are right, the tool should be flat when pressing the 2nd bearing in so contact with the spacer is made by pressing the inside portion of the bearing into it not from pressing the outside part of the bearing into the spacer like my tool does. By flipping the tool around you get a flat installer but you lose the pilot to line up the spacer and the bearing. I'm thinking that putting a lathe to it and making it flat along the entire surface will solve the problem. I assume that can be done.

And for lining up the spacer with the bearing on the other end that was just pressed in, I like PoorUB's idea of kerfing a a piece of schedule 40 3/4 inch pvc. I went to the hardware store and bought a piece. It was about 25.5 mm before the kerf on the table saw. Once I made the cut it fit inside my 25 mm bearing and spacer really nice with room for the bolt to pass through. Thanks for the insight and tips. I hope I understood everything correctly.
[attach=0]

[rbabos]

There in lies the problem with the tool and not paying attention can cause problems. Pressing the first bearing in there is no issue with the tool design but pressing the second bearing in, the first bearing should be either supported on either both inner and outer or just the inner. Never ever the outer part of the bearing.  Sleeve goes in and second bearing is pressed in pressing on both inner and outer at the same time. Beware of the tool at this stage. I think you can flip it over to flat surface. This way there is no pressure difference between inner and outer races on either side so all you are doing is making contact on the inner spacer. Once contact is made and the spacer is square to the faces of the bearings inner races, you can press your balls off, or at least what clamping the axle nut would give. There will be no unwanted loading at the bearing balls this way. That's usually what kills them as in short life span. Anyway, that's my 2c
Ron

Ron, your explanation makes a lot of sense and I'm sure it has made a lot of readers think about how they install wheel bearings. I attached a picture here of a component of my kit and you can see the installer tool favors pressure on the outside because it is countersunk slightly on the inside portion. I wonder what the thinking was with the engineers who designed this? You are right, the tool should be flat when pressing the 2nd bearing in so contact with the spacer is made by pressing the inside portion of the bearing into it not from pressing the outside part of the bearing into the spacer like my tool does. By flipping the tool around you get a flat installer but you lose the pilot to line up the spacer and the bearing. I'm thinking that putting a lathe to it and making it flat along the entire surface will solve the problem. I assume that can be done.

And for lining up the spacer with the bearing on the other end that was just pressed in, I like PoorUB's idea of kerfing a a piece of schedule 40 3/4 inch pvc. I went to the hardware store and bought a piece. It was about 25.5 mm before the kerf on the table saw. Once I made the cut it fit inside my 25 mm bearing and spacer really nice with room for the bolt to pass through. Thanks for the insight and tips. I hope I understood everything correctly.
[attach=0,msg1280532]

Had this conversation with an Indy a few years ago. He pulled out his bearing toosl and showed me he already machined it flat, finding it could cause problems as is or already ran into a problem with it. Mind you, he has a lathe and milling machine in his shop being an X machinist it was a piece of cake. Thing is, he saw the issue with the tool, as he does a lot of bearings with it long before I came along.
Ron

[les]

The bearing installer I have has a recess on the one washer. No clue why, I feel that a flat surface driving the inner and outer race at the same time is necessary for the second bearing. I flip the washer over and use the flat side to drive the bearing. maybe the OP has a similar screwy tool. I have also seen where the sleeve gets slightly off and the bearing does not get driven in far enough. I have considered getting a piece of tubing slightly smaller than the ID of the bearing to help guide the sleeve and bearings.

In this case it sounds like the second bearing was pressed in too far. If it were my bike I might have taken the chance and tried to pull it out a RCH.

There in lies the problem with the tool and not paying attention can cause problems. Pressing the first bearing in there is no issue with the tool design but pressing the second bearing in, the first bearing should be either supported on either both inner and outer or just the inner. Never ever the outer part of the bearing.  Sleeve goes in and second bearing is pressed in pressing on both inner and outer at the same time. Beware of the tool at this stage. I think you can flip it over to flat surface. This way there is no pressure difference between inner and outer races on either side so all you are doing is making contact on the inner spacer. Once contact is made and the spacer is square to the faces of the bearings inner races, you can press your balls off, or at least what clamping the axle nut would give. There will be no unwanted loading at the bearing balls this way. That's usually what kills them as in short life span. Anyway, that's my 2c
Ron

Yes, you can actually flip the JIMS tool (or Georges tool, which is what I have) and press with the flat side for the second bearing.  That's what I do to make sure I don't side load during the install.

[Scotty]

Yes, you can actually flip the JIMS tool (or Georges tool, which is what I have) and press with the flat side for the second bearing.  That's what I do to make sure I don't side load during the install.

But you are side loading the bearing............. By only pressing the bearing in until it lightly touches the center spacer as you said in your other post you are then forcing the center of bearing inwards when the axle is torqued and side loading the bearing. Might not be much but it does not take much to make them wear quicker.
That is why i torque the installer to the specified axle torque to make sure that when the axle is tightened there is no chance of side loading.
This install the bearing till it lightly touches the center spacer is just plain wrong and if you are having wheel bearing failure check your spacer is square on the ends and the correct length and tighten the install the full axle torque and you will have much better luck.

[PoorUB]

Yes, you can actually flip the JIMS tool (or Georges tool, which is what I have) and press with the flat side for the second bearing.  That's what I do to make sure I don't side load during the install.

But you are side loading the bearing............. By only pressing the bearing in until it lightly touches the center spacer as you said in your other post you are then forcing the center of bearing inwards when the axle is torqued and side loading the bearing. Might not be much but it does not take much to make them wear quicker.
That is why i torque the installer to the specified axle torque to make sure that when the axle is tightened there is no chance of side loading.
This install the bearing till it lightly touches the center spacer is just plain wrong and if you are having wheel bearing failure check your spacer is square on the ends and the correct length and tighten the install the full axle torque and you will have much better luck.

I don't think you need to torque the bearing installer to the same torque as the axle. First off they are different thread sises so the force will be different. I just snug the bearing installer down good and never had a problem.

If you want to nit pick then tell me what is the correct length of the sleeve? Most guys don't realize that it doesn't matter with the sealed bearings as long as the sleeve is longer than the space between the bearing counter bores in the wheel. I was surprised when I did the bearings on my 2010. I bet the sleeve was a good 1/2" longer than one would think it should be. Anther few fractions of and inch and I could have stuffed a second bearing in the bore if I lopped off the sleeve to match.

[les]

Yes, you can actually flip the JIMS tool (or Georges tool, which is what I have) and press with the flat side for the second bearing.  That's what I do to make sure I don't side load during the install.

But you are side loading the bearing............. By only pressing the bearing in until it lightly touches the center spacer as you said in your other post you are then forcing the center of bearing inwards when the axle is torqued and side loading the bearing. Might not be much but it does not take much to make them wear quicker.
That is why i torque the installer to the specified axle torque to make sure that when the axle is tightened there is no chance of side loading.
This install the bearing till it lightly touches the center spacer is just plain wrong and if you are having wheel bearing failure check your spacer is square on the ends and the correct length and tighten the install the full axle torque and you will have much better luck.

I definitely understand your advice about not side loading the bearings, and is why I advised the OP to consider re-doing the job.  Also, that wheel bearings require a touch and experience to properly install and you can't just depend on the tool to automatically get them right.  The tool helps, but you still need to understand (as you imply) what's going on.

In reading your posting, once the stack (left inner race, tube, right inner race) are touching, then the assumption that metal stack will collapse under torque is what I'm scratching my head about.  If that happens, then the design is flawed.  The OP installed the bearings the first time with side load, increasing the risk of premature bearing failure.  IMO, the final axle torque can't squish the stack beyond the metal-to-metal stack.  Again, otherwise the entire design and parts would be flawed.

[Scotty]

If you want to nit pick then tell me what is the correct length of the sleeve?

As long as it is longer than the internal bore of the wheel. Harley have had faulty sleeves that were short and not square so I don't know where you were headed with that comment. Both are documented on this site if you care to search.

[Scotty]

In reading your posting, once the stack (left inner race, tube, right inner race) are touching, then the assumption that metal stack will collapse under torque is what I'm scratching my head about.  If that happens, then the design is flawed.  The OP installed the bearings the first time with side load, increasing the risk of premature bearing failure.  IMO, the final axle torque can't squish the stack beyond the metal-to-metal stack.  Again, otherwise the entire design and parts would be flawed.

Just touching the inner spacer can be a trap as unless you have a good look you can still be a thou or 2 away from the spacer because people want the bearing to spin freely. However when you put the axle in the with the spacers it will compress slightly under torque and if the out bearing does not move the inner part is side loaded. Better to reduce that whilst installing the bearing and forget about HD's stupid advice about check the bearing with your finger for roughness. You might get it right Les but if just one person takes my advice then I have done the right thing by telling how I do it. No failure now on the same wheel that failed 3 times in 30k and is now 140k doing it my way.

[Heinz]

Being the OP this thread has been a very good learning experience for me about things I have not thought about before. From the excellent comments, I decided to get two 25 mm pilot installers and have them put on a lathe so that the inner part of the installer faces are level with the outer part. That way the entire bearing is being pressed with no side loads when making contact with the spacer, unlike most of the present installer tools. Using two installers that have a long enough pilot so that they capture the spacer on both ends insures a near perfect alignment with the spacer and the bearings.

I sacrificed two new bearings that were put in without the new installers just to do a new install and test the tools. I estimate I used 15-20 ft. lbs. of torque when installing bearing no. 2. When I removed the tools I was pleased to learn that (1) the two bearings spun freely, and (2) when I slid the axle in it fit perfectly. They key was to have pilot installers that were long enough to capture the spacer, that are machined flat on the surfaces that contact the inner and outer bearing races, and the pilots need to be a tight fit/tolerance with the bearings and spacer.

[Scotty]

 

[Hilly13]

Been a good thread to clarify something that's very often done slightly wrong 

[PoorUB]

I was thinking of making new plates for my wheel bearing installer with pilots too, only thing is I would make them fit a 25 MM bearing then it will fit both diameters, but make the pilots about 1-1/2" longer than the bearing thickness and machine a taper on the end of the pilot. As you force the bearing into place it should guide the sleeve in place.

[98fxstc]

Bookmarked this one
Only ever done the timkens but I will need to do the Fatbob soon
Thanks

[Schex3x]

Some good ideas posted here.

When I replace bearings, I first make sure the bearing bores are clean and no burrs, then oil the bore and the bearing. Get the first bearing seated well, then get the second bearing close to the spacer, then use the driver by itself and tap on it to get the bearing home, just small taps is all that's needed, check the spacer after each tap.
When it's correct, you can still move/align the spacer, but it will also hold it's position.