2005 Wide Glide EFI that just went from 88 to 95", hi flow air cleaner, 2-1 exhaust, adjustable pushrods, S&S 585 cams. I'm getting 170-175psi on each cylinder with little to no leakage. And it has a base map in it for the break in period.
It starts up fine but is running rough. Stayed rough for the short ride I took it on and it died once when coming to a quick stop. Starts up fine again. Both plugs are fouled - black and sooty. Any suggestions? The service manual says lists piston rings, valves, wrong plugs, or running rich under 'fouled plugs' troubleshooting.
Does the 170-175 psi eliminate rings and valves as the problem?
Could the base map the shop put in be off? I have an RB Racing pipe and they've said before they don't see too many of those.
I hesitate to say this because it might be a non-issue that distracts from above but there's a slight swish-swish-swish sound coming from either the intake module or the front rocker box. Like I said, this may be completely unrelated.
Thanks for the read.
Havent ran the Compression #'s but il bet a tune will fix ur issues!
86
If you used flat top pistons and a .030 head gasket with the S&S 585 cams then your around 170psi is correct.
The map sounds like it is running real rich and doing more harm than good and you need to fix it urgently.
Personally I would have shot for a 190psi finish with a different cam but that's me.
:agree: and urgently as in do not run it any longer. Hopefully you haven't washed down the new cylinders and rings. Get it on a dyno with a known good tuner before you run it more.
Quote from: kd on June 06, 2019, 04:30:22 PM
:agree: and urgently as in do not run it any longer. Hopefully you haven't washed down the new cylinders and rings. Get it on a dyno with a known good tuner before you run it more.
Base map for heat cycle and get it on the dyno is what I thought was the right way to do that
The can heat cycle and run in while they are tuning the bike on the dyno - well a good one can
Quote from: Scotty on June 06, 2019, 03:32:47 PM
If you used flat top pistons and a .030 head gasket with the S&S 585 cams then your around 170psi is correct.
The map sounds like it is running real rich and doing more harm than good and you need to fix it urgently.
Personally I would have shot for a 190psi finish with a different cam but that's me.
Yea, flat tops and .030.
I'll call the indy shop I'm working with tomorrow. It's maybe run for about 10 minutes with a one mile test ride. Won't run it anymore. Any damage done so far?
Quote from: 1workinman on June 06, 2019, 05:00:24 PM
Quote from: kd on June 06, 2019, 04:30:22 PM
:agree: and urgently as in do not run it any longer. Hopefully you haven't washed down the new cylinders and rings. Get it on a dyno with a known good tuner before you run it more.
Base map for heat cycle and get it on the dyno is what I thought was the right way to do that
This shop says heat cycle, then base map for break in, then final tune with dyno and on-the-road tuning.
Most good tuners will tell you to heat cycle once or twice with a "known good" base map and if no leaks trailer it in for tune and break in. Break in is not the 1,000 miles some think. It happens in the first hour or less. If you are going to do closed loop tuning you need to be close to be within the range your tuner will adjust. What tuner device?
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 06, 2019, 06:03:02 PM
This shop says heat cycle, then base map for break in, then final tune with dyno and on-the-road tuning.
Problem with a rich map is all that goes out the window..........explain the problem to them and see what they say and if you don't like it get another tuner.
They are not going to take responsibility for washed down cylinders and the problems that come with that in the long run.
Could the swish-swish-swish I hear be an intake leak? And then the EFI overcompensates by sending more fuel?
Can I test that with propane or is it too risky to run the engine?
Exhaust leaks make a sound never really heard a intake leak but some cams make the slide rattle but that is carby thing.
I found a similar post on this site, 95" build with rough idle and black plugs:
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=34673.msg357851#msg357851
I'll double check the intake sensors, etc, and talk to the shop.
compression is going to be too low for the S&S 585 cams,it really should have been set @ 10.5-1 minimum.even when tuned,it`ll be soft on the bottom & not very good in higher RPM`s either
Quote from: prodrag1320 on June 07, 2019, 03:52:18 AM
compression is going to be too low for the S&S 585 cams,it really should have been set @ 10.5-1 minimum.even when tuned,it`ll be soft on the bottom & not very good in higher RPM`s either
When you say compression too low is that based on the 170psi from the compression test or from the assumed compression ratio of the build?
I guess I'm asking is something off from me reassembling it incorrectly or something off from the shop's build ingredients/recipe? My first post maybe wasnt entirely clear but the bike is getting a full stage 3. So heads cylinders piston cam exhaust etc.
The shop says 100/100 in their 95" builds and they've been around a while. We'll see how it works out.
100/100 is very doable on a 95". Mine is (or was about 80,000 miles ago) 99 horse, 108 torque. I did not measure cranking pressure back then, but have 175 ccp now, different cam and heads than yours, but not overly high compared to yours. It still pulls like crazy, so I don't think I've lost much ccp over the years, uses no oil.
Get that thing to the shop and let them tune it.
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 07, 2019, 12:21:22 PM
Quote from: prodrag1320 on June 07, 2019, 03:52:18 AM
compression is going to be too low for the S&S 585 cams,it really should have been set @ 10.5-1 minimum.even when tuned,it`ll be soft on the bottom & not very good in higher RPM`s either
When you say compression too low is that based on the 170psi from the compression test or from the assumed compression ratio of the build?
I guess I'm asking is something off from me reassembling it incorrectly or something off from the shop's build ingredients/recipe? My first post maybe wasnt entirely clear but the bike is getting a full stage 3. So heads cylinders piston cam exhaust etc.
The shop says 100/100 in their 95" builds and they've been around a while. We'll see how it works out.
Well that cam with flat tops in a 95 is going to get it's ass whipped by stock 88's so be ready when they take off and leave you for dead.
Don't know who gave you the recipe for that build but it's wrong...........sorry
Should have chosen a cam to get the PSI up like the 551
You want torque to have the most fun on a street bike and the 585 works better in a 124" than a 95"
I'm naïve to all of this, so I hope this isn't a dumb question:
Who do some shops let people ride around on an untuned bike? From what I understand, heat cycles can be performed, or possibly some other procedures on the dyno?
To the original poster, I hope you get it squared away and I didn't mean to hijack your post. I just try to participate in learning moments when I can.
Quote from: scott7d on June 07, 2019, 06:57:31 PM
I'm naïve to all of this, so I hope this isn't a dumb question:
Who do some shops let people ride around on an untuned bike? From what I understand, heat cycles can be performed, or possibly some other procedures on the dyno?
To the original poster, I hope you get it squared away and I didn't mean to hijack your post. I just try to participate in learning moments when I can.
Different opinions and different ideas probably. Everybody's guy is the best until the "Potty mouth" hit's the fan :idunno:
Are they S&S 585's easy starts? I ran them in a 95@210ccp they came alive about 2800rpm and pulled to the limiter(heads were ported 1.9/1.6 valves). Bob
Quote from: FXDBI on June 07, 2019, 09:31:17 PM
Are they S&S 585's easy starts? I ran them in a 95@210ccp they came alive about 2800rpm and pulled to the limiter(heads were ported 1.9/1.6 valves). Bob
Now give us the entire build, pistons, heads cc, head gasket used? This guy is already confused and now he is going to read this and think he should get the same.
You must have high compression domed pistons and your heads cut to around 83cc
This guy is running flat tops and based on his cranking compression has hogged out heads as his cold crank compression & corrected compression is 170psi 8.5:1
Uncorrected would be about 9.4:1 and with those 585 cams it will be a dud.
Quote from: Scotty on June 07, 2019, 11:52:12 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on June 07, 2019, 09:31:17 PM
Are they S&S 585's easy starts? I ran them in a 95@210ccp they came alive about 2800rpm and pulled to the limiter(heads were ported 1.9/1.6 valves). Bob
Now give us the entire build, pistons, heads cc, head gasket used? This guy is already confused and now he is going to read this and think he should get the same.
You must have high compression domed pistons and your heads cut to around 83cc
This guy is running flat tops and based on his cranking compression has hogged out heads as his cold crank compression & corrected compression is 170psi 8.5:1
Uncorrected would be about 9.4:1 and with those 585 cams it will be a dud.
Yes I used S/E cast domes ,heads set at 83cc and .030 gaskets, agree with you 100% it will be a dog if it is really set @170. Using 585 easy starts it cranked around the 170 mark, you have to run it on one cylinder over 600 rpm to get a factual reading which was 210/212 ccp. Original poster needs more info on what the shop used and who assembled it the shop or did they just provide parts? Bob
It may hit a peak of 100/100 but be a slug to ride. Not a lot of torque under the curve. The base map you got is nowhere close and I would fix that right away before anymore running, better yet go straight to the tuner.
To the OP, did you do this build yourself, or was it done by the shop?
Alright guys, let's bring this back around.
I'm a novice but trying to keep up. I come on here and read and read and talk to the shop and try to remember stuff but get confused on some of the details. I think most of the mistakes I make are typing stuff wrong on these forums cuz I have 10 different internet tabs open.
The piston part numbers are 22122-99A. On second review, I don't think that's the flat top. I'm sure the shop told me but when I talk to them it's usually kind of a rolling conversation with stories and what not which is fun but I should probably write stuff down.
Im sorry for the confusion on here and I appreciate all the help. But I don't need comments on what cam I should have run now. I asked those questions last fall and talked to the shop and that ship has sailed until I get this bike on the road and see how it rides
I just want to trouble shoot the rough running and sooty spark plugs and rule out any errors I made before taking back to the shop for a new map. The last thing a shop wants to hear is "well I read on the internet..."
The consensus seems to be a bad fuel map so I'll see what comes from that.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 08, 2019, 11:17:47 AM
To the OP, did you do this build yourself, or was it done by the shop?
I disassembled, took cylinder and heads in for machining, the shop clearanced and assembled the bottom end, and I assembled the top end. I did the heat cycle and they put the map in but didn't run it at the shop cuz I had to correct something in the top end.
I spoke with them before the build and they were cool with that and have been helpful along the way.
http://www.surdyke.com/PartsMain.aspx?PartNumber=22179-99A&SubCatID=207&CatID=6&Name=Screamin' Eagle®&CatName=KIT, 1550 PISTON, H/C STD
Those are the same 10.25/1 pistons I used. Did the shop provide you with easy start cams? What was done to the heads? What tuner are you using? Bob
It's hard when we only get partial details and told the wrong thing so you are being your own worst enemy asking for help with the wrong details.
Now at 170psi maybe you have S&S EZ start cams and you have set the pushrods wrong for the EZ start cams
Can you check what cams you have really as your other thread with setting the pushrods EZ start cams were never mentioned.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 08, 2019, 11:17:47 AM
To the OP, did you do this build yourself, or was it done by the shop?
I ask again.
Reply 25 gets most of it Hoss. :wink:
Quote from: kd on June 08, 2019, 03:50:45 PM
Reply 25 gets most of it Hoss. :wink:
Thanks, I thought I had gone through the thread again to look for that, but I missed it.
Pull your oil dipstick and smell for fuel. If you do, change it before starting the motor again. Try loading a new map, and give it another go.
Old age sets in and stuff like that is a regular occurrence. :hyst:
is the porcelain well covered or just the fuel ring
Quote from: Scotty on June 08, 2019, 12:44:44 PM
It's hard when we only get partial details and told the wrong thing so you are being your own worst enemy asking for help with the wrong details.
Now at 170psi maybe you have S&S EZ start cams and you have set the pushrods wrong for the EZ start cams
Can you check what cams you have really as your other thread with setting the pushrods EZ start cams were never mentioned.
Yeah I know. That's my bad. Just not sure how much to list when asking these questions. I can see why some folks list all of their upgrades in their posts. Let me try again.
S&S 585 (not EZ start)
SE Hydraulic cam plate
Adjustable pushrods
New valve springs
SE 10.25:1 pistons
.030 cometic head gasket
Head work done (don't have the cc's)
RB Racing LSR Blackhole 2-1
S&S stealth air cleaner
Power Vision (ECM flash)
The bike starts right up on first crank, it was at 170-175psi at warm up temp, and it runs rough and slightly irregular.
Didn't have a strong smell of gas in the oil. And can't remember exactly about the porcelain on the plugs. Definitely the fuel ring (base ring?) and ground strap are soot covered.
Like I said before, I want to try and correct any assembly mistakes I may have made before taking it back and asking for a new tune. The shop is pretty patient with me but they're busy and I don't want to be a nuisance (like I am on this thread).
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 08, 2019, 09:44:03 PM
Yeah I know. That's my bad. Just not sure how much to list when asking these questions. I can see why some folks list all of their upgrades in their posts. Let me try again.
S&S 585 (not EZ start)
SE Hydraulic cam plate
Adjustable pushrods
New valve springs
SE 10.25:1 pistons
.030 cometic head gasket
Head work done (don't have the cc's)
RB Racing LSR Blackhole 2-1
S&S stealth air cleaner
Power Vision (ECM flash)
The bike starts right up on first crank, it was at 170-175psi at warm up temp, and it runs rough and slightly irregular.
Didn't have a strong smell of gas in the oil. And can't remember exactly about the porcelain on the plugs. Definitely the fuel ring (base ring?) and ground strap are soot covered.
Like I said before, I want to try and correct any assembly mistakes I may have made before taking it back and asking for a new tune. The shop is pretty patient with me but they're busy and I don't want to be a nuisance (like I am on this thread).
Ok well not knowing the head cc so let's just assume it's around 85cc that means static compression is around 10.6:1 and corrected around 9.5:1 200psi which could indicate a problem only getting 170psi but then it could just be the gauge you are using since it is the same on both cylinders.
Hopefully it's just the gauge and you need to get it tuned or get a better base map.
you may not of done anything wrong and could just be nerves
Since you have run it so little the plugs will be true and give you an accurate picture of things, deal with engine build later
Do you have powervision
I'd check compression again.. with a different gauge. Also make sure throttle blade is wide open when checking compression, or it will be low.
If compression is where it's supposed to be, I'd load it up and carry to a tuner and have it tuned, before washing down the cylinders.
585,s are good cams, but you definately need more compression than 170 psi. I just took a set out of my bike, compression was 10.7:1, with 200 ccp. Only thing I didn't like about them is they start pulling kinda late.. but they will pull to redline. Also love the nasty idle the 585,s have.
You may not have anything wrong at all. I've seen compression testers read off dozens of times, especially el cheapo testers. Good luck :up:
Ok maybe a bad comp gauge. I bought it new from NAPA for $70, so not the cheapest but not high end.
I can't imagine I'm using it wrong. Screw in a connector and attach a hose. Hold throttle wide open and crank about 8 times. I disconnect the fuel pump fuse and unplug the ignition.
In my current situation should I warm the bike up or test it cold?
Be sure your battery is fully charged, might even hook a charger to it to help. I'd also pull spark plugs from both cylinders to help spin faster.
And brand of tester don't matter. I bought a brand new snap on a few years ago that was 20 psi off. Tool truck replaced it, but goes to show, even high dollar tools can be fubared.
Alright, my compressor tester must be off. I got a different one and it reads 185-190psi (cold engine) on both cylinders. Which sounds better but I tested again with an ounce of oil in each and got 225-230psi (cold engine).
Any thoughts on those numbers? I assume high numbers are better. But the fact that it went even higher (another one inaccurate comp tester?) with added oil makes me worried about rings. Could those be my issue?
I am 100% certain the oil ring is dot side up. I put them on wrong initially and had to correct it. Would putting a ring on, taking it off and putting it back on cause a problem? Am I confusing black plugs as soot when it's really oil? It looks dry but it covers the base ring, porcelain, and ground strap.
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 09, 2019, 01:47:56 PM
Alright, my compressor tester must be off. I got a different one and it reads 185-190psi (cold engine) on both cylinders. Which sounds better but I tested again with an ounce of oil in each and got 225-230psi (cold engine).
Any thoughts on those numbers? I assume high numbers are better. But the fact that it went even higher (another one inaccurate comp tester?) with added oil makes me worried about rings. Could those be my issue?
I am 100% certain the oil ring is dot side up. I put them on wrong initially and had to correct it. Would putting a ring on, taking it off and putting it back on cause a problem? Am I confusing black plugs as soot when it's really oil? It looks dry but it covers the base ring, porcelain, and ground strap.
[/quote
If you assembled it did you scrub those bores clean clean clean so a soft white rag comes back white when u wipe the bore? The increase in pressure with oil indicates a improved seal with oil pointing to a ring problem. Gaining 35+ccp points to a ring seal question. Bob
That's a big jump in comp after adding oil, you said an ounce, is that a literal amount? If so that's like taking up 29cc's of space, you would expect a big jump in measured compression if that's the case.
Quote from: Hilly13 on June 09, 2019, 02:37:17 PM
That's a big jump in comp after adding oil, you said an ounce, is that a literal amount? If so that's like taking up 29cc's of space, you would expect a big jump in measured compression if that's the case.
No you're right. It was 15ml. That's what the service manual says to use. Bad typing again on my part.
That's ok, just checking mate.
Are you able to do a leak down test?
Bob asked previously if you scrubbed the bores clean?
Typically a couple of squirts of oil is enough to seal the rings. As said, too much oil can raise the compression on volume displaced alone. It will also flood the valve seats and skew the results expected to just test ring seal and rule out either rings or valves because it seals them both.
I scrubbed the bores with warm soapy Dawn water, dried them out, and repeated a few times. Then wiped out with a solvent. They were good to go.
I read differing opinions about using solvent but the shop said they did so i went with it.
Quote from: kd on June 09, 2019, 04:41:22 PM
Typically a couple of squirts of oil is enough to seal the rings. As said, too much oil can raise the compression on volume displaced alone. It will also flood the valve seats and skew the results expected to just test ring seal and rule out either rings or valves because it seals them both.
Let's say the first test (170psi) was wrong from a faulty tester and the last one (225psi) was skewed cuz I put in too much oil. Can I accept the middle one (190psi, cold engine) as an accurate reading and assume the rings and valves are ok and it's the base map? Or can you have decent compression and still have sealing problems?
I just want to have everything taken care of on my end before going back to the shop for a different map. Everyone can imagine how the conversation goes when a DIY guy trailers in a bike and implies something the shop did might be off.
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 09, 2019, 07:26:22 PM
Quote from: kd on June 09, 2019, 04:41:22 PM
Typically a couple of squirts of oil is enough to seal the rings. As said, too much oil can raise the compression on volume displaced alone. It will also flood the valve seats and skew the results expected to just test ring seal and rule out either rings or valves because it seals them both.
Let's say the first test (170psi) was wrong from a faulty tester and the last one (225psi) was skewed cuz I put in too much oil. Can I accept the middle one (190psi, cold engine) as an accurate reading and assume the rings and valves are ok and it's the base map? Or can you have decent compression and still have sealing problems?
I just want to have everything taken care of on my end before going back to the shop for a different map. Everyone can imagine how the conversation goes when a DIY guy trailers in a bike and implies something the shop did might be off.
Do you still have your stock map? If you do and you can put it back in it would not hurt to start and run to see if it stops running rough.
If you are sure you put everything together properly or even if you are not sure the only way you are going to find out is get it started and ride.
Now if you can't put the stock map back in and you are beholden to the shop to do it then your only choice is to talk to them.
All anybody on this thread is doing is making educated guess's and opinions vary.
Scotty's right we are guessing, the 190ish reading you got is ballpark for your build though, things we don't know, deck height, combustion chamber CC's, but on average that would be close, I'm with the blokes that say it's the tune, over here 190 is an aimed for target as a corrected compression number, state side they favour more but tuned well that should be reasonable engine for its size.
At this point, with even compression, go back to the tune.
If you can/want to try a different power vision map this is one that should get you started and might be worth a try
https://app.box.com/s/3gto68x77p7u2i5jfhl7vwj9k75dtplb (https://app.box.com/s/3gto68x77p7u2i5jfhl7vwj9k75dtplb)
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 08, 2019, 11:48:16 AM
Alright guys, let's bring this back around.
I'm a novice but trying to keep up. I come on here and read and read and talk to the shop and try to remember stuff but get confused on some of the details. I think most of the mistakes I make are typing stuff wrong on these forums cuz I have 10 different internet tabs open.
The piston part numbers are 22122-99A. On second review, I don't think that's the flat top. I'm sure the shop told me but when I talk to them it's usually kind of a rolling conversation with stories and what not which is fun but I should probably write stuff down.
Im sorry for the confusion on here and I appreciate all the help. But I don't need comments on what cam I should have run now. I asked those questions last fall and talked to the shop and that ship has sailed until I get this bike on the road and see how it rides
I just want to trouble shoot the rough running and sooty spark plugs and rule out any errors I made before taking back to the shop for a new map. The last thing a shop wants to hear is "well I read on the internet..."
The consensus seems to be a bad fuel map so I'll see what comes from that.
I think you are handling this well and I will comment on which cam you should run, run the one you got just get the compression in line. 195 ccp target is a good target but this cam will easily handle more and still be tune-able.
Lot of correct information on the Internet.
Often the person you talking to is up to something if they don't like
Got a cheap borescope off amazon and took some pics. Hope they're clear enough. These are the rear cylinder. Presumably the oil is what injected yesterday for the last pressure test. The walls look good. Not sure about that grime around the edge.
These are the front cylinder. A little more grime on the piston. And some vertical lines on the bore. Same story with the oil, presumably injected by me. How would these rings rate?
This is the front cylinder after the heat cycle on a new build. Most of the background can be found here:
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=109186.0
That discussion is more about troubleshooting a rough running bike. This is a more specific post about the condition of the bore and rings based on the pics.
The oil in the pic is what I injected during compression testing.
Any thoughts? Do I need to take it apart again?
Rear cylinder which doesn't have the vertical lines like the front bore. Less grime on the piston, too.
Hard to tell by liking at pics.. but them vertical marks ain't supposed to be there. Sure it was absolutely clean , cylinder, pistons and rings?
Did the pistons slide right in when assembling? Did you check end gap on rings?
Sure you didn't break a ring when assembling?
Quote from: jrgreene1968 on June 11, 2019, 10:24:25 AM
Hard to tell by liking at pics.. but them vertical marks ain't supposed to be there. Sure it was absolutely clean , cylinder, pistons and rings?
Did the pistons slide right in when assembling? Did you check end gap on rings?
Sure you didn't break a ring when assembling?
yeah, in one pic it looks like ring end gaps, in the other, not sure what to call it, but ring chatter :unsure:
Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.
Quote from: FLDavetrain on June 11, 2019, 11:39:46 AM
Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.
I saw a similar comment about borescope pics on another forum. So if compression is good it's ok to move forward with break-in, tuning, etc.?
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 11, 2019, 12:25:42 PM
Quote from: FLDavetrain on June 11, 2019, 11:39:46 AM
Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.
I saw a similar comment about borescope pics on another forum. So if compression is good it's ok to move forward with break-in, tuning, etc.?
As long as your tune is good. How do you know until it gets monitored?
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 11, 2019, 12:25:42 PM
Quote from: FLDavetrain on June 11, 2019, 11:39:46 AM
Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.
I saw a similar comment about borescope pics on another forum. So if compression is good it's ok to move forward with break-in, tuning, etc.?
Well looks like your cruising forms looking for the answer that suits you. To me it looks like the bores were never clean enough to start and are starting to glaze over and are not seated properly. Will they seat with a good tune :nix:. I do a compression test on a fresh engine before I run them, also turn them over with the plugs out until the oil light goes out a few times. Did you check the function of the piston oilers when u had the top off? I could go on and on with questions things a guy just does automatically on machine assembly its a learning curve. Good Luck with it! Bob
:agree:
I wash my cylinders out and scrub them clean then I use ATF (automatic transmission fluid) and white paper towels and keep cleaning them till those white paper towels come out clean. I know some guys use Marvel Mystery Oil but it's not easy to find where I live.
If you just gave them a quick wash then still lots of grit and solvent trapped in the bore which causes problems.
Only person who knows what you did is you.
It's going to take more a good wash for those cylinders. It looks like they were bored too big and what you see are tool marks from the boring bar. Where is the cross hatch? Do you think you might have issue with the rings lining up? I know the experts here don't think that.
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 11, 2019, 03:07:19 PM
It's going to take more a good wash for those cylinders. It looks like they were bored too big and what you see are tool marks from the boring bar. Where is the cross hatch? Do you think you might have issue with the rings lining up? I know the experts here don't think that.
Rings very well could be lined up Max :nix: Don't know what was done for assembly checks or what the parts looked/measured to at the start. Don't even know what was done to the heads or the chamber size. If it was me fixing it I would take it apart and go thru it . Bob
Added: No mention of any crank checks either :scratch:
Quote from: FXDBI on June 11, 2019, 06:04:23 PM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 11, 2019, 03:07:19 PM
It's going to take more a good wash for those cylinders. It looks like they were bored too big and what you see are tool marks from the boring bar. Where is the cross hatch? Do you think you might have issue with the rings lining up? I know the experts here don't think that.
Rings very well could be lined up Max :nix: Don't know what was done for assembly checks or what the parts looked/measured to at the start. Don't even know what was done to the heads or the chamber size. If it was me fixing it I would take it apart and go thru it . Bob
Added: No mention of any crank checks either :scratch:
I agree.. I'd take it apart and start over. Like max said.. there's way to much going on there. I asked a few questions above, but he didn't answer.
Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.
I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 11, 2019, 07:49:58 PM
Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.
I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.
:up:
Check comment by the Admiral.
Check the bore size (and round and true) and hatching while you have it apart.
Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't.
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 11, 2019, 07:49:58 PM
Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.
I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.
Don't kid yourself if you think all of us have never had to take something apart again after a overhaul. Its all part of the learning curve of fixing things. You did the right thing stopping before you do damage and investigating, much cheaper than going to failure. Any buddy tells you they never had to disassemble anything in there life a second time is a bare faced liar. Don't let it get you down learn from it and move on. Bob
Quote from: FXDBI on June 11, 2019, 08:59:33 PM
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 11, 2019, 07:49:58 PM
Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.
I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.
Don't kid yourself if you think all of us have never had to take something apart again after a overhaul. Its all part of the learning curve of fixing things. You did the right thing stopping before you do damage and investigating, much cheaper than going to failure. Any buddy tells you they never had to disassemble anything in there life a second time is a bare faced liar. Don't let it get you down learn from it and move on. Bob
I have never had to do it twice.......3 or 4 times maybe but never just twice :potstir:
Borescopes have caused many an engine to be torn down needlessly...
Makes folks believe the shy is falling.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on June 12, 2019, 04:20:10 AM
Borescopes have caused many an engine to be torn down needlessly...
Makes folks believe the shy is falling.
This guy knows what he's talking about, he actually does it for a living.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on June 12, 2019, 04:20:10 AM
Borescopes have caused many an engine to be torn down needlessly...
Makes folks believe the sky is falling.
I agree with Scott.
MIKE
100% agree with Scott (and that don't happen often) Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill.
well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about :unsure:
Quote from: Pete_Vit on June 12, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about :unsure:
Hmm, I thought it was me.
To the OP, tying into this and your other thread, a good plan of action would be to get it on a Dyno and get it tuned. Heat cycles can be done, the motor monitored, and the tune adjusted immediately to prevent further damage.
Then, if it really is found to have issues, it can be dealt with. It may not be an issue with the work, it seemed more a tuning issue.
But that's just me, and again, I may be the one mentioned that doesn't know what he's talking about, definitely not the first time.
The bottom line in this thread and regardless of peoples opinion which will always vary, none of us were there when he assembled it.
The OP has had a few problems along the way and only he knows if he truly has skipped or missed steps that some people just do not even thinking about it.
Not cleaning the bores properly can reduce piston ring life and sealing quite dramatically, however the motor will still run.
A broken or jammed oil ring and the motor will still run.
Then again a piston circlip could not be seated and pop out and ruin his entire day.
Too many variables and not enough information and I didn't build it or supply parts so it's hard to judge and to help.
What information has been provided that there is anything wrong with build,
Running rough?
Quote from: Mirrmu on June 12, 2019, 02:35:26 PM
What information has been provided that there is anything wrong with build,
Running rough?
No there has been 3 or 4 threads so if you have not read them all then you probably don't understand what is going on.
You need to go read all his threads from this build from injectors not working to cams possibly not installed correctly to pushrods not installed properly.
Read them all and form an opinion because just like backsides we all have one and they all smell just as bad.
By all means go for it.. We can all learn something here.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 12, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on June 12, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about :unsure:
Hmm, I thought it was me.
To the OP, tying into this and your other thread, a good plan of action would be to get it on a Dyno and get it tuned. Heat cycles can be done, the motor monitored, and the tune adjusted immediately to prevent further damage.
Then, if it really is found to have issues, it can be dealt with. It may not be an issue with the work, it seemed more a tuning issue.
But that's just me, and again, I may be the one mentioned that doesn't know what he's talking about, definitely not the first time.
Not you Pete or Hoss
His post has been removed
Referred to over-reaction after using a borescope for pics
I know if I had vertical lines showing in a cylinder, I would be having a good look at them
Quote from: 98fxstc on June 13, 2019, 12:57:31 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 12, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on June 12, 2019, 08:47:51 AM
well I'm glad I don't have a bore scope then, my untrained eye, looking at pic 3 and 4, looks bad, I guess I'm the guy 98fxstc
"Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't." is talking about :unsure:
Hmm, I thought it was me.
To the OP, tying into this and your other thread, a good plan of action would be to get it on a Dyno and get it tuned. Heat cycles can be done, the motor monitored, and the tune adjusted immediately to prevent further damage.
Then, if it really is found to have issues, it can be dealt with. It may not be an issue with the work, it seemed more a tuning issue.
But that's just me, and again, I may be the one mentioned that doesn't know what he's talking about, definitely not the first time.
Not you Pete or Hoss
His post has been removed
Referred to over-reaction after using a borescope for pics
I know if I had vertical lines showing in a cylinder, I would be having a good look at them
I'd have no problem if it was me, I've only rebuilt 2 EVO motors in my life, If I had a borescope, I'd be going nuts I think, so I really don't have much experience, but that being said, I know what my jugs look like when I took 'em off and how they looked when I got them back from the machine shop, those pixs looked suspicious :crook:
thanks 98fxstc! :beer:
Do this simple test, pull out your borescope and look in any of your buddies factory untouched bikes and then tell us how you feel about yours.
It is together and running. I would get it tuned and ride it, but keep an eye on it. Pistons and cylinders are relatively inexpensive so if it starts burning oil, tear it down. Good chance there is nothing wrong and the bore scope is making it look worse than it is.
I put together a 107", broke a piston ring during assembly. I put 4,000 miles on the build before the oil consumption got simply terrible. I took a trip with it and was pouring in a quart of oil every 500 miles. Rode it home, tore it down and found the broken ring, big score in the cylinder, but never found the 1/2 long piece of missing oil ring. I was in a hurry as I had a big trip scheduled and replaced the cylinder an rings, pistons were good. Ran that build for 10,000 miles and it slowly started burning oil again. Tore it down but couldn't find any reason for the oil consumption. Put in a HD 96" to 103" big bore kit, stock 103" pistons and cylinders and it ran great. Found the broken oil ring in the oil filter and a chewed up oil pump that was still in one piece and pumping good pressure. No more oil issues. Blew a head gasket in Montana and traded it off on a new Limited! Cams, exhaust and a tune in the Limited and I am done. The heads will never come off!
Quote from: PoorUB on June 13, 2019, 11:04:18 AM
It is together and running. I would get it tuned and ride it, but keep an eye on it. Pistons and cylinders are relatively inexpensive so if it starts burning oil, tear it down. Good chance there is nothing wrong and the bore scope is making it look worse than it is.
I put together a 107", broke a piston ring during assembly. I put 4,000 miles on the build before the oil consumption got simply terrible. I took a trip with it and was pouring in a quart of oil every 500 miles. Rode it home, tore it down and found the broken ring, big score in the cylinder, but never found the 1/2 long piece of missing oil ring. I was in a hurry as I had a big trip scheduled and replaced the cylinder an rings, pistons were good. Ran that build for 10,000 miles and it slowly started burning oil again. Tore it down but couldn't find any reason for the oil consumption. Put in a HD 96" to 103" big bore kit, stock 103" pistons and cylinders and it ran great. Found the broken oil ring in the oil filter and a chewed up oil pump that was still in one piece and pumping good pressure. No more oil issues. Blew a head gasket in Montana and traded it off on a new Limited! Cams, exhaust and a tune in the Limited and I am done. The heads will never come off!
So your telling us you had less than stellar results doing your own engine work and you wont be doing any more? Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean. Bob
Quote from: FXDBI on June 13, 2019, 01:43:34 PM
Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean. Bob
:up:
Quote from: 98fxstc on June 13, 2019, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on June 13, 2019, 01:43:34 PM
Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean. Bob
:up:
As my old Apprentice Master used to say, cleanliness is next to godliness.
That bottom pic in the second lot shows, what looks to me anyway, a lot of oil in there, could explain the high CCP reading.
Quote from: FXDBI on June 13, 2019, 01:43:34 PM
So your telling us you had less than stellar results doing your own engine work and you wont be doing any more? Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean. Bob
I literally have rebuilt hundreds of engines over the years and my 107" project was a lemon from day one. The cause of the oil burning from the second go-round was not obvious. After the second rebuild the oil consumption was minor, practically none, it just got worse over time. It had to be ring seal. As I pulled the heads, did nothing to them and dropped them on the 103" and it did not use a significant amount of oil. Pretty sure the head gasket was caused from a pulled stud. When I torqued the heads when it went back to a 103" one stud torqued funny, it just didn't feel right. I went back and re-torqued before finished the top end and it torqued fine so I ignored it. I should have listened to my gut feeling.
Some of the issues were the result of being rushed as I had plans in place to travel. The one rebuild started Monday evening, ordered parts next day air Tuesday, put it together Wednesday, 100 mile ride Thursday evening and a oil change, then pack up Friday night and headed to North Carolina Saturday AM, all while working 10 hour days at my job.
Also, I am far from a handy man and have rebuilt everything from weed trimmers to car engines and diesel truck and tractor engines with extremely few failures. I was trained as a heavy equipment mechanic, but did not pursue it, but did work for friend over the years. My Yamaha R1 I have talked about was rebuilt from a collection of used parts. It doesn't use oil and runs like a top. About 6,000 miles of abuse and it keeps on ticking. My buddy gives me crap about it. He tells me I can't build Harleys, but I can slap together a 1000 CC sport bike engine with used parts and it runs like a top. I did a 95" on my '05 Ultra that ran like a champ.
Bob, I am sure you have never had one that just wouldn't cooperate! All of you builds were 100%, every time!
Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.
Quote from: Ohio HD on June 13, 2019, 05:11:54 PM
Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.
I agree, Especially when opening them up to a 107". Mine were bored by one of the best, right here on this group.
Quote from: Ohio HD on June 13, 2019, 05:11:54 PM
Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.
Well that's pretty nieve. I've probably only bored 300 to 500 cylinders and while I've done less than 50 HDs, there really ain't any art. It's simple machine work. Nothing else.. It's all about getting the right finish and clearance. Nothing more.
Quote from: PoorUB on June 13, 2019, 05:01:10 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on June 13, 2019, 01:43:34 PM
So your telling us you had less than stellar results doing your own engine work and you wont be doing any more? Engine work isn't really for most home handymen its best left to someone who has a good understanding of assembly work. You need the tools and knowledge to use them to do all the checks required and you can never be too clean. Bob
I literally have rebuilt hundreds of engines over the years and my 107" project was a lemon from day one. The cause of the oil burning from the second go-round was not obvious. After the second rebuild the oil consumption was minor, practically none, it just got worse over time. It had to be ring seal. As I pulled the heads, did nothing to them and dropped them on the 103" and it did not use a significant amount of oil. Pretty sure the head gasket was caused from a pulled stud. When I torqued the heads when it went back to a 103" one stud torqued funny, it just didn't feel right. I went back and re-torqued before finished the top end and it torqued fine so I ignored it. I should have listened to my gut feeling.
Some of the issues were the result of being rushed as I had plans in place to travel. The one rebuild started Monday evening, ordered parts next day air Tuesday, put it together Wednesday, 100 mile ride Thursday evening and a oil change, then pack up Friday night and headed to North Carolina Saturday AM, all while working 10 hour days at my job.
Also, I am far from a handy man and have rebuilt everything from weed trimmers to car engines and diesel truck and tractor engines with extremely few failures. I was trained as a heavy equipment mechanic, but did not pursue it, but did work for friend over the years. My Yamaha R1 I have talked about was rebuilt from a collection of used parts. It doesn't use oil and runs like a top. About 6,000 miles of abuse and it keeps on ticking. My buddy gives me crap about it. He tells me I can't build Harleys, but I can slap together a 1000 CC sport bike engine with used parts and it runs like a top. I did a 95" on my '05 Ultra that ran like a champ.
Bob, I am sure you have never had one that just wouldn't cooperate! All of you builds were 100%, every time!
Is all good Poor, I have had my failures over the years. Did a in frame rebuild on a old tractor when I was 13 with a 76yr old mechanic. Almost 64 now worked 40+ years has a millwright. Overhauled more things than I can remember and still learning, still make mistakes has well. Learn and continue is my motto. Bob
I'm very interested to see how this turns out for the op.
Have you started to disassemble?
Quote from: Hossamania on June 14, 2019, 04:10:00 AM
I'm very interested to see how this turns out for the op.
.me too!!
would like to of seen a video and the plugs,
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on June 13, 2019, 05:58:26 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on June 13, 2019, 05:11:54 PM
Harley Davidson cylinders are not easy to bore, then finish hone and keep relatively straight and round. That's a lot of the problem with builds. Only use guys that have bored literally thousands of cylinders well. There aren't as many as you might thing out there.
Well that's pretty nieve. I've probably only bored 300 to 500 cylinders and while I've done less than 50 HDs, there really ain't any art. It's simple machine work. Nothing else.. It's all about getting the right finish and clearance. Nothing more.
:up:
Quote from: Hossamania on June 14, 2019, 04:10:00 AM
I'm very interested to see how this turns out for the op.
Not great! I tore it down and just re-assembled and I've only done a 30s and 1min heat cycle but the plugs are fouled with oil (shiny black). I peaked in with the borescope and saw oily grime on the piston head. It looks like the same as the pics in a previous post so I think it was oil last time too and not soot. I assume the rough running is from spark plugs fouling and interrupting the spark. When I had it apart both exhaust ports and manifold pipe inlets were covered in a greasy black film.
I took the engine down all the way to the pistons and put new rings on it. I measured the end gaps, staggered the end gaps per instructions, and used a new ring compressor and they went on fairly easy. Replaced the cylinder base gasket and the cylinder deck dowel o-ring.
The cylinders look fine but I scrubbed them again in soapy water and wiped (and re-wiped) with ATF until clean. I put them on with a coat of oil in the bore. Put new cometic head gaskets on and torqued to spec (9-14-22-35-42ftlbs) and in sequence (see next post about sequence in the manual). Followed the manual for the rocker housing and rocker covers. Adjustable pushrods per instructions - top dead center compression with bleed down time for each.
I compression tested cold engine at 180psi which seems low. I put in about 4ml of oil and compression tested again and it was still 180psi.
What am I looking at:
Pushrod adjustment? Maybe cuz the compression is low but that shouldn't have anything to do with oil in the cylinder. I can re-adjust the pushrods just for the sake of it but I don't see what that will do for the oil.
Blow-by past the rings? Would the constant compression test with and without oil rule that out? If the rings were bad wouldn't the oil fix that?
What about ring seating? If I did a heat cycle before with the old rings would that mess anything up now with the new rings? Do you only have one shot at a heat cycle and if you mess it up do you have to replace the rings AND treat the cylinder again?
Is the head gasket messed up? I don't see any oil leaking for the two short runs I did. Can it leak in to the cylinder without leaking out? I followed the torque specs and did short-short-long-long but it's not clear if going front to back or back to front makes a difference. It looks like the figure of the cylinder head in the manual doesn't match the actual part. I'll post a pic in the next post.
Three photos of the cylinder head. Two from the manual where one is loosening head bolts and the other tightening. Then the third pic is from the cometic instructions.
What's confusing with the manual is the loosening figure has front/rear listed but the depiction of the curved oil groove and the large flat spot by bolt 3 are flipped front to back. That curved oil groove should be on the intake side of each head and the larger flat spot that has front or rear marked on it should be by the exhaust side. If you follow front/rear you'd work inlet side to outlet side but if you follow the groove and flat spot you go outlet to inlet
The second pic in the manual doesn't have front/rear anymore. So now the figure of each head is correct but only if the top one is the rear and the bottom is the front. So you can see read it as either inlet to outlet or outlet to inlet again.
The cometic instruction doesn't have the curved groove but only the larger flat spot by bolt 3. And it only has one cylinder shown. This figure tells you to work outlet to inlet.
Does it matter which way you go? I did short-short-long-long at the required torques but I went outlet to inlet.
The first pic didn't attach in the last post.
Edit: Never mind it did post.
I'm late to the party.
I would not have tore it down. I would have taken it to the tuner and let them have at it. If there were or are any engine problems they would have found them. I think you have made a mountain out of a mole hill. But now will never know.
Since it is once again back together, I would take it to the tuner and let him sort it out. If there are any non tuning issues he will find them and most likely will be able to fix it correctly.
Good luck
RE; torquing cylinder heads , or any other machined piece.
As long as you pull it down evenly it really doesn't matter where you start.
Find a mentor to help you or pay a pro.
Quote from: K4FXD on June 21, 2019, 10:07:00 AM
Find a mentor to help you or pay a pro.
Man, a mentor would be nice. I'm a one man band around here. I've learned a lot so far but just not enough I guess. If I don't figure this out soon it's going to the pro. Baby number two is coming in August and my time will be filled.
Take it to the tuner. If it were mine that is what I'd do.
Only because I don't have a dyno or the software to tune a FI bike.
So I build the motor, send to tuner, get back good running bike. Or the tuner says "Hey dude you F'ed up the (insert anything that could be F'ed up)
Ive been a wrench in one form or another for almost 40 years.
doing a good job, follow everything in the manual and you will be fine
a tuner not going to determine an oil problem in the cylinders
but i would do some more heat cycles for 2 or 3mins each, and if dont notice anything significant from your assembly (oil pissing out, significant noise) then i would take it for a ride keeping the rpms up, changing gears, try and hit 4000-4500rpm, 20-30mins
then check out
Like the rest of the pros have already done, I'm going to bow out.
Take it to a tuner, let him get the MAP right. You can't turn a screw on a FI bike to lean it out.
Good luck.
Let us know how it turns out.
Update on the build: it was the map put in by the shop. The re-assembly was good on my end. So that's a confidence booster.
My apologies for the scatterbrained trouble shooting on here. This was the first time trying this big of a project and I really didn't want to be "that guy" bringing a DIY bike back in. I'm pretty confident in the shop that if I would have let them do everything start to finish it would have been fine. But long story short they had to change their routine a little for me and I'm very appreciative.
Thanks to all those that helped on here. It was fun and I learned a lot.
Thanks for the follow up, glad you got it sorted out.
It's all about the tune.
how did the tune affect the oiley spark plugs ??
Quote from: chris.m.j on June 06, 2019, 06:03:02 PM
Quote from: 1workinman on June 06, 2019, 05:00:24 PM
Quote from: kd on June 06, 2019, 04:30:22 PM
:agree: and urgently as in do not run it any longer. Hopefully you haven't washed down the new cylinders and rings. Get it on a dyno with a known good tuner before you run it more.
Base map for heat cycle and get it on the dyno is what I thought was the right way to do that
This shop says heat cycle, then base map for break in, then final tune with dyno and on-the-road tuning.
Follow the lead of others here. The tune needs to be fixed right out of the gate.
Quote from: dsvracer on August 02, 2019, 06:13:47 AM
how did the tune affect the oiley spark plugs ??
The tune was commanding more oil be sent into cylinders
Quote from: Mirrmu on August 02, 2019, 03:44:48 PM
Quote from: dsvracer on August 02, 2019, 06:13:47 AM
how did the tune affect the oiley spark plugs ??
The tune was commanding more oil be sent into cylinders
Huh more oil, i guess more fuel? Unless you have a two stroke! :wink:
Aren't you supposed to leave the dowel oring out when using the cometic mls head gaskets?
Quote from: Mirrmu on August 02, 2019, 03:44:48 PM
Quote from: dsvracer on August 02, 2019, 06:13:47 AM
how did the tune affect the oiley spark plugs ??
The tune was commanding more oil be sent into cylinders
I don't think that the tune controls the oil to the cylinders it does control fuel and timing events . A tune that is not proper will or can wash off the cylinder wall or be too lean . The reason to tune it after heat cycle for me . Glad you got it fixed .
Ok, washing oil from cylinder walls?
Maybe one of the tuners can provide some feedback on how the tune make oily spark plugs
He said sooty plugs in the first post, could of be really rich with other tune issues as well, it's all good now and that's all that matters :teeth: