New build - fouled plugs and rough running

[chris.m.j]

2005 Wide Glide EFI that just went from 88 to 95", hi flow air cleaner, 2-1 exhaust, adjustable pushrods, S&S 585 cams. I'm getting 170-175psi on each cylinder with little to no leakage. And it has a base map in it for the break in period.

It starts up fine but is running rough. Stayed rough for the short ride I took it on and it died once when coming to a quick stop. Starts up fine again. Both plugs are fouled - black and sooty. Any suggestions? The service manual says lists piston rings, valves, wrong plugs, or running rich under 'fouled plugs' troubleshooting.

Does the 170-175 psi eliminate rings and valves as the problem?

Could the base map the shop put in be off? I have an RB Racing pipe and they've said before they don't see too many of those.

I hesitate to say this because it might be a non-issue that distracts from above but there's a slight swish-swish-swish sound coming from either the intake module or the front rocker box. Like I said, this may be completely unrelated.

Thanks for the read.

[86fxwg]

Havent ran the Compression #'s but il bet a tune will fix ur issues!


86

[Scotty]

If you used flat top pistons and a .030 head gasket with the S&S 585 cams then your around 170psi is correct.
The map sounds like it is running real rich and doing more harm than good and you need to fix it urgently.
Personally I would have shot for a 190psi finish with a different cam but that's me.

[kd]

   and urgently as in do not run it any longer.  Hopefully you haven't washed down the new cylinders and rings.  Get it on a dyno with a known good tuner before you run it more.

[1workinman]

  and urgently as in do not run it any longer.  Hopefully you haven't washed down the new cylinders and rings.  Get it on a dyno with a known good tuner before you run it more.

Base map for heat cycle and get it on the dyno is what I thought was the right way to do that

[Scotty]

The can heat cycle and run in while they are tuning the bike on the dyno - well a good one can

[chris.m.j]

If you used flat top pistons and a .030 head gasket with the S&S 585 cams then your around 170psi is correct.
The map sounds like it is running real rich and doing more harm than good and you need to fix it urgently.
Personally I would have shot for a 190psi finish with a different cam but that's me.

Yea, flat tops and .030.

I'll call the indy shop I'm working with tomorrow. It's maybe run for about 10 minutes with a one mile test ride. Won't run it anymore. Any damage done so far?

[chris.m.j]

  and urgently as in do not run it any longer.  Hopefully you haven't washed down the new cylinders and rings.  Get it on a dyno with a known good tuner before you run it more.

Base map for heat cycle and get it on the dyno is what I thought was the right way to do that

This shop says heat cycle, then base map for break in, then final tune with dyno and on-the-road tuning.

[kd]

Most good tuners will tell you to heat cycle once or twice with a "known good" base map and if no leaks trailer it in for tune and break in.  Break in is not the 1,000 miles some think.  It happens in the first hour or less. If you are going to do closed loop tuning you need to be close to be within the range your tuner will adjust.  What tuner device?

[Scotty]

This shop says heat cycle, then base map for break in, then final tune with dyno and on-the-road tuning.

Problem with a rich map is all that goes out the window..........explain the problem to them and see what they say and if you don't like it get another tuner.
They are not going to take responsibility for washed down cylinders and the problems that come with that in the long run.

[chris.m.j]

Could the swish-swish-swish I hear be an intake leak? And then the EFI overcompensates by sending more fuel?

Can I test that with propane or is it too risky to run the engine?

[Scotty]

Exhaust leaks make a sound never really heard a intake leak but some cams make the slide rattle but that is carby thing.

[chris.m.j]

I found a similar post on this site, 95" build with rough idle and black plugs:

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=34673.msg357851#msg357851

I'll double check the intake sensors, etc, and talk to the shop.

[prodrag1320]

compression is going to be too low for the S&S 585 cams,it really should have been set @ 10.5-1 minimum.even when tuned,it`ll be soft on the bottom & not very good in higher RPM`s either

[chris.m.j]

compression is going to be too low for the S&S 585 cams,it really should have been set @ 10.5-1 minimum.even when tuned,it`ll be soft on the bottom & not very good in higher RPM`s either

When you say compression too low is that based on the 170psi from the compression test or from the assumed compression ratio of the build?

I guess I'm asking is something off from me reassembling it incorrectly or something off from the shop's build ingredients/recipe? My first post maybe wasnt entirely clear but the bike is getting a full stage 3. So heads cylinders piston cam exhaust etc.

The shop says 100/100 in their 95" builds and they've been around a while. We'll see how it works out.

[Hossamania]

100/100 is very doable on a 95". Mine is (or was about 80,000 miles ago) 99 horse, 108 torque. I did not measure cranking pressure back then, but have 175 ccp now, different cam and heads than yours, but not overly high compared to yours. It still pulls like crazy, so I don't think I've lost much ccp over the years, uses no oil.
Get that thing to the shop and let them tune it.

[Scotty]

compression is going to be too low for the S&S 585 cams,it really should have been set @ 10.5-1 minimum.even when tuned,it`ll be soft on the bottom & not very good in higher RPM`s either

When you say compression too low is that based on the 170psi from the compression test or from the assumed compression ratio of the build?

I guess I'm asking is something off from me reassembling it incorrectly or something off from the shop's build ingredients/recipe? My first post maybe wasnt entirely clear but the bike is getting a full stage 3. So heads cylinders piston cam exhaust etc.

The shop says 100/100 in their 95" builds and they've been around a while. We'll see how it works out.

Well that cam with flat tops in a 95 is going to get it's ass whipped by stock 88's so be ready when they take off and leave you for dead.
Don't know who gave you the recipe for that build but it's wrong...........sorry
Should have chosen a cam to get the PSI up like the 551
You want torque to have the most fun on a street bike and the 585 works better in a 124" than a 95"

[scott7d]

I'm naïve to all of this, so I hope this isn't a dumb question:

Who do some shops let people ride around on an untuned bike? From what I understand, heat cycles can be performed, or possibly some other procedures on the dyno?

To the original poster, I hope you get it squared away and I didn't mean to hijack your post. I just try to participate in learning moments when I can.

[Scotty]

I'm naïve to all of this, so I hope this isn't a dumb question:

Who do some shops let people ride around on an untuned bike? From what I understand, heat cycles can be performed, or possibly some other procedures on the dyno?

To the original poster, I hope you get it squared away and I didn't mean to hijack your post. I just try to participate in learning moments when I can.

Different opinions and different ideas probably. Everybody's guy is the best until the "Potty mouth" hit's the fan 

[FXDBI]

Are they S&S 585's easy starts? I ran them in a 95@210ccp they came alive about 2800rpm and pulled to the limiter(heads were ported 1.9/1.6 valves).  Bob

[Scotty]

Are they S&S 585's easy starts? I ran them in a 95@210ccp they came alive about 2800rpm and pulled to the limiter(heads were ported 1.9/1.6 valves).  Bob

Now give us the entire build, pistons, heads cc, head gasket used? This guy is already confused and now he is going to read this and think he should get the same.
You must have high compression domed pistons and your heads cut to around 83cc

This guy is running flat tops and based on his cranking compression has hogged out heads as his cold crank compression & corrected compression is 170psi 8.5:1
Uncorrected would be about 9.4:1 and with those 585 cams it will be a dud.

[FXDBI]

Are they S&S 585's easy starts? I ran them in a 95@210ccp they came alive about 2800rpm and pulled to the limiter(heads were ported 1.9/1.6 valves).  Bob

Now give us the entire build, pistons, heads cc, head gasket used? This guy is already confused and now he is going to read this and think he should get the same.
You must have high compression domed pistons and your heads cut to around 83cc

This guy is running flat tops and based on his cranking compression has hogged out heads as his cold crank compression & corrected compression is 170psi 8.5:1
Uncorrected would be about 9.4:1 and with those 585 cams it will be a dud.

Yes I used S/E cast domes ,heads set at 83cc and .030 gaskets, agree with you 100% it will be a dog if it is really set @170. Using 585 easy starts it cranked around the 170 mark, you have to run it on one cylinder over 600 rpm to get a factual reading which was 210/212 ccp. Original poster needs more info on what the shop used and who assembled it the shop or did they just provide parts?   Bob

[Don D]

It may hit a peak of 100/100 but be a slug to ride. Not a lot of torque under the curve. The base map you got is nowhere close and I would fix that right away before anymore running, better yet go straight to the tuner.

[Hossamania]

To the OP, did you do this build yourself, or was it done by the shop?

[chris.m.j]

Alright guys, let's bring this back around.

I'm a novice but trying to keep up. I come on here and read and read and talk to the shop and try to remember stuff but get confused on some of the details. I think most of the mistakes I make are typing stuff wrong on these forums cuz I have 10 different internet  tabs open.

The piston part numbers are 22122-99A. On second review, I don't think that's the flat top. I'm sure the shop told me but when I talk to them it's usually kind of a rolling conversation with stories and what not which is fun but I should probably write stuff down.

Im sorry for the confusion on here and I appreciate all the help. But I don't need comments on what cam I should have run now. I asked those questions last fall and talked to the shop and that ship has sailed until I get this bike on the road and see how it rides

I just want to trouble shoot the rough running and sooty spark plugs and rule out any errors I made before taking back to the shop for a new map. The last thing a shop wants to hear is "well I read on the internet..."

The consensus seems to be a bad fuel map so I'll see what comes from that.