New build - fouled plugs and rough running

[chris.m.j]

To the OP, did you do this build yourself, or was it done by the shop?

I disassembled, took cylinder and heads in for machining, the shop clearanced and assembled the bottom end, and I assembled the top end. I did the heat cycle and they put the map in but didn't run it at the shop cuz I had to correct something in the top end.

I spoke with them before the build and they were cool with that and have been helpful along the way.

[FXDBI]

http://www.surdyke.com/PartsMain.aspx?PartNumber=22179-99A&SubCatID=207&CatID=6&Name=Screamin'; Eagle®&CatName=KIT, 1550 PISTON, H/C STD

Those are the same 10.25/1 pistons I used.  Did the shop provide you with easy start cams?   What was done to the heads?  What tuner are you using?   Bob

[Scotty]

It's hard  when we only get partial details and told the wrong thing so you are being your own worst enemy asking for help with the wrong details.
Now at 170psi maybe you have S&S EZ start cams and you have set the pushrods wrong for the EZ start cams
Can you check what cams you have really as your other thread with setting the pushrods EZ start cams were never mentioned.

[Hossamania]

To the OP, did you do this build yourself, or was it done by the shop?

I ask again.

[kd]

Reply 25 gets most of it Hoss.   

[Hossamania]

Reply 25 gets most of it Hoss.   

Thanks, I thought I had gone through the thread again to look for that, but I missed it.

[Hossamania]

Pull your oil dipstick and smell for fuel. If you do, change it before starting the motor again. Try loading a new map, and give it another go.

[kd]

Old age sets in and stuff like that is a regular occurrence.   

[Mirrmu]

is the porcelain well covered or just the fuel ring

[chris.m.j]

It's hard  when we only get partial details and told the wrong thing so you are being your own worst enemy asking for help with the wrong details.
Now at 170psi maybe you have S&S EZ start cams and you have set the pushrods wrong for the EZ start cams
Can you check what cams you have really as your other thread with setting the pushrods EZ start cams were never mentioned.

Yeah I know. That's my bad. Just not sure how much to list when asking these questions. I can see why some folks list all of their upgrades in their posts. Let me try again.

S&S 585 (not EZ start)
SE Hydraulic cam plate
Adjustable pushrods
New valve springs
SE 10.25:1 pistons
.030 cometic head gasket
Head work done (don't have the cc's)
RB Racing LSR Blackhole 2-1
S&S stealth air cleaner
Power Vision (ECM flash)

The bike starts right up on first crank, it was at 170-175psi at warm up temp, and it runs rough and slightly irregular.

Didn't have a strong smell of gas in the oil. And can't remember exactly about the porcelain on the plugs. Definitely the fuel ring (base ring?) and ground strap are soot covered.

Like I said before, I want to try and correct any assembly mistakes I may have made before taking it back and asking for a new tune. The shop is pretty patient with me but they're busy and I don't want to be a nuisance (like I am on this thread).

[Scotty]

Yeah I know. That's my bad. Just not sure how much to list when asking these questions. I can see why some folks list all of their upgrades in their posts. Let me try again.

S&S 585 (not EZ start)
SE Hydraulic cam plate
Adjustable pushrods
New valve springs
SE 10.25:1 pistons
.030 cometic head gasket
Head work done (don't have the cc's)
RB Racing LSR Blackhole 2-1
S&S stealth air cleaner
Power Vision (ECM flash)

The bike starts right up on first crank, it was at 170-175psi at warm up temp, and it runs rough and slightly irregular.

Didn't have a strong smell of gas in the oil. And can't remember exactly about the porcelain on the plugs. Definitely the fuel ring (base ring?) and ground strap are soot covered.

Like I said before, I want to try and correct any assembly mistakes I may have made before taking it back and asking for a new tune. The shop is pretty patient with me but they're busy and I don't want to be a nuisance (like I am on this thread).

Ok well not knowing the head cc so let's just assume it's around 85cc that means static compression is around 10.6:1 and corrected around 9.5:1 200psi which could indicate a problem only getting 170psi but then it could just be the gauge you are using since it is the same on both cylinders.
Hopefully it's just the gauge and you need to get it tuned or get a better base map.

[Mirrmu]

you may not of done anything wrong and could just be nerves

Since you have run it so little the plugs will be true and give you an accurate picture of things, deal with engine build later

Do you have powervision

[jrgreene1968]

I'd check compression again.. with a different gauge. Also make sure throttle blade is wide open when checking compression, or it will be low.
If compression is where it's supposed to be, I'd load it up and carry to a tuner and have it tuned, before washing down the cylinders.
585,s are good cams, but you definately need more compression than 170 psi. I just took a set out of my bike, compression was 10.7:1, with 200 ccp. Only thing I didn't like about them is they start pulling kinda late.. but they will pull to redline. Also love the nasty idle the 585,s have.
You may not have anything wrong at all. I've seen compression testers read off dozens of times, especially el cheapo testers. Good luck

[chris.m.j]

Ok maybe a bad comp gauge. I bought it new from NAPA for $70, so not the cheapest but not high end.

I can't imagine I'm using it wrong. Screw in a connector and attach a hose. Hold throttle wide open and crank about 8 times. I disconnect the fuel pump fuse and unplug the ignition.

In my current situation should I warm the bike up or test it cold?

[jrgreene1968]

Be sure your battery is fully charged, might even hook a charger to it to help. I'd also pull spark plugs from both cylinders to help spin faster.
And brand of tester don't matter. I bought a brand new snap on a few years ago that was 20 psi off. Tool truck replaced it, but goes to show, even high dollar tools can be fubared.

[chris.m.j]

Alright, my compressor tester must be off. I got a different one and it reads 185-190psi (cold engine) on both cylinders. Which sounds better but I tested again with an ounce of oil in each and got 225-230psi (cold engine).

Any thoughts on those numbers? I assume high numbers are better. But the fact that it went even higher (another one inaccurate comp tester?) with added oil makes me worried about rings. Could those be my issue?

I am 100% certain the oil ring is dot side up. I put them on wrong initially and had to correct it. Would putting a ring on, taking it off and putting it back on cause a problem? Am I confusing black plugs as soot when it's really oil? It looks dry but it covers the base ring, porcelain, and ground strap.

[FXDBI]

Alright, my compressor tester must be off. I got a different one and it reads 185-190psi (cold engine) on both cylinders. Which sounds better but I tested again with an ounce of oil in each and got 225-230psi (cold engine).

Any thoughts on those numbers? I assume high numbers are better. But the fact that it went even higher (another one inaccurate comp tester?) with added oil makes me worried about rings. Could those be my issue?

I am 100% certain the oil ring is dot side up. I put them on wrong initially and had to correct it. Would putting a ring on, taking it off and putting it back on cause a problem? Am I confusing black plugs as soot when it's really oil? It looks dry but it covers the base ring, porcelain, and ground strap.
[/quote

If you assembled it did you scrub those bores clean clean clean so a soft white rag comes back white when u wipe the bore? The increase in pressure with oil indicates a improved seal with oil pointing to a ring problem. Gaining 35+ccp points to a ring seal question.  Bob

[Hilly13]

That's a big jump in comp after adding oil, you said an ounce, is that a literal amount? If so that's like taking up 29cc's of space, you would expect a big jump in measured compression if that's the case.

[chris.m.j]

That's a big jump in comp after adding oil, you said an ounce, is that a literal amount? If so that's like taking up 29cc's of space, you would expect a big jump in measured compression if that's the case.

No you're right. It was 15ml. That's what the service manual says to use. Bad typing again on my part.

[Hilly13]

That's ok, just checking mate.
Are you able to do a leak down test?
Bob asked previously if you scrubbed the bores clean?

[kd]

Typically a couple of squirts of oil is enough to seal the rings.  As said, too much oil can raise the compression on volume displaced alone.  It will also flood the valve seats and skew the results expected to just test ring seal and rule out either rings or valves because it seals them both.

[chris.m.j]

I scrubbed the bores with warm soapy Dawn water, dried them out, and repeated a few times. Then wiped out with a solvent. They were good to go.

I read differing opinions about using solvent but the shop said they did so i went with it.

[chris.m.j]

Typically a couple of squirts of oil is enough to seal the rings.  As said, too much oil can raise the compression on volume displaced alone.  It will also flood the valve seats and skew the results expected to just test ring seal and rule out either rings or valves because it seals them both.

Let's say the first test (170psi) was wrong from a faulty tester and the last one (225psi) was skewed cuz I put in too much oil. Can I accept the middle one (190psi, cold engine) as an accurate reading and assume the rings and valves are ok and it's the base map? Or can you have decent compression and still have sealing problems?

I just want to have everything taken care of on my end before going back to the shop for a different map. Everyone can imagine how the conversation goes when a DIY guy trailers in a bike and implies something the shop did might be off.

[Scotty]

Typically a couple of squirts of oil is enough to seal the rings.  As said, too much oil can raise the compression on volume displaced alone.  It will also flood the valve seats and skew the results expected to just test ring seal and rule out either rings or valves because it seals them both.

Let's say the first test (170psi) was wrong from a faulty tester and the last one (225psi) was skewed cuz I put in too much oil. Can I accept the middle one (190psi, cold engine) as an accurate reading and assume the rings and valves are ok and it's the base map? Or can you have decent compression and still have sealing problems?

I just want to have everything taken care of on my end before going back to the shop for a different map. Everyone can imagine how the conversation goes when a DIY guy trailers in a bike and implies something the shop did might be off.

Do you still have your stock map? If you do and you can put it back in it would not hurt to start and run to see if it stops running rough.
If you are sure you put everything together properly or even if you are not sure the only way you are going to find out is get it started and ride.
Now if you can't put the stock map back in and you are beholden to the shop to do it then your only choice is to talk to them.
All anybody on this thread is doing is making educated guess's and opinions vary.

[Hilly13]

Scotty's right we are guessing, the 190ish reading you got is ballpark for your build though, things we don't know, deck height, combustion chamber CC's, but on average that would be close, I'm with the blokes that say it's the tune, over here 190 is an aimed for target as a corrected compression number, state side they favour more but tuned well that should be reasonable engine for its size.