New build - fouled plugs and rough running

[Hossamania]

At this point, with even compression, go back to the tune.

[Scotty]

If you can/want to try a different power vision map this is one that should get you started and might be worth a try
https://app.box.com/s/3gto68x77p7u2i5jfhl7vwj9k75dtplb

[BVHOG]

Alright guys, let's bring this back around.

I'm a novice but trying to keep up. I come on here and read and read and talk to the shop and try to remember stuff but get confused on some of the details. I think most of the mistakes I make are typing stuff wrong on these forums cuz I have 10 different internet  tabs open.

The piston part numbers are 22122-99A. On second review, I don't think that's the flat top. I'm sure the shop told me but when I talk to them it's usually kind of a rolling conversation with stories and what not which is fun but I should probably write stuff down.

Im sorry for the confusion on here and I appreciate all the help. But I don't need comments on what cam I should have run now. I asked those questions last fall and talked to the shop and that ship has sailed until I get this bike on the road and see how it rides

I just want to trouble shoot the rough running and sooty spark plugs and rule out any errors I made before taking back to the shop for a new map. The last thing a shop wants to hear is "well I read on the internet..."

The consensus seems to be a bad fuel map so I'll see what comes from that.

I think you are handling this well and I will comment on which cam you should run, run the one you got just get the compression in line. 195 ccp target is a good target but this cam will easily handle more and still be tune-able.

[Mirrmu]

Lot of correct information on the Internet.

Often the person you talking to is up to something if they don't like

[chris.m.j]

Got a cheap borescope off amazon and took some pics. Hope they're clear enough. These are the rear cylinder. Presumably the oil is what injected yesterday for the last pressure test. The walls look good. Not sure about that grime around the edge.

[chris.m.j]

These are the front cylinder. A little more grime on the piston. And some vertical lines on the bore. Same story with the oil, presumably injected by me. How would these rings rate?

[chris.m.j]

This is the front cylinder after the heat cycle on a new build. Most of the background can be found here:

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=109186.0

That discussion is more about troubleshooting a rough running bike. This is a more specific post about the condition of the bore and rings based on the pics.

The oil in the pic is what I injected during compression testing.

Any thoughts? Do I need to take it apart again?

[chris.m.j]

Rear cylinder which doesn't have the vertical lines like the front bore. Less grime on the piston, too.

[jrgreene1968]

Hard to tell by liking at pics.. but them vertical marks ain't supposed to be there. Sure it was absolutely clean , cylinder, pistons and rings?
Did the pistons slide right in when assembling? Did you check end gap on rings?
Sure you didn't break a ring when assembling?

[Pete_Vit]

Hard to tell by liking at pics.. but them vertical marks ain't supposed to be there. Sure it was absolutely clean , cylinder, pistons and rings?
Did the pistons slide right in when assembling? Did you check end gap on rings?
Sure you didn't break a ring when assembling?

yeah, in one pic it looks like ring end gaps, in the other, not sure what to call it, but ring chatter   

[FLDavetrain]

Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.

[chris.m.j]

Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.

I saw a similar comment about borescope pics on another forum. So if compression is good it's ok to move forward with break-in, tuning, etc.?

[Hossamania]

Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.

I saw a similar comment about borescope pics on another forum. So if compression is good it's ok to move forward with break-in, tuning, etc.?

As long as your tune is good. How do you know until it gets monitored?

[FXDBI]

Nothing alarming at all. Be aware that scoping cylinders with that light and camera blowing up images can make any wear line even typical ones look like a mountain of problems, then you tear it down and scratch your head wondering where's the problem.

I saw a similar comment about borescope pics on another forum. So if compression is good it's ok to move forward with break-in, tuning, etc.?

Well looks like your cruising forms looking for the answer that suits you.  To me it looks  like the bores were never clean enough to start and are starting to glaze over and are not seated properly.  Will they seat with a good tune   .  I do a compression test on a fresh engine before I run them, also turn them over with the plugs out until the oil light goes out a few times. Did you check the function of the  piston oilers when u had the top off?   I could go on and on with questions things a guy just does automatically on machine assembly its a learning curve.   Good Luck with it!  Bob

[Scotty]

 

I wash my cylinders out and scrub them clean then I use ATF (automatic transmission fluid) and white paper towels and keep cleaning them till those white paper towels come out clean. I know some guys use Marvel Mystery Oil but it's not easy to find where I live.
If you just gave them a quick wash then still lots of grit and solvent trapped in the bore which causes problems.
Only person who knows what you did is you.

[Admiral Akbar]

It's going to take more a good wash for those cylinders.   It looks like they were bored too big and what you see are tool marks from the boring bar.  Where is the cross hatch?  Do you think you might have issue with the rings lining up?  I know the experts here don't think that.

[FXDBI]

It's going to take more a good wash for those cylinders.   It looks like they were bored too big and what you see are tool marks from the boring bar.  Where is the cross hatch?  Do you think you might have issue with the rings lining up?  I know the experts here don't think that.

Rings very well could be lined up Max     Don't know what was done for assembly checks or what the parts looked/measured to at the start. Don't even know what was done to the heads or the chamber size.  If it was me fixing it I would take it apart and go thru it .   Bob

Added:  No mention of any crank checks either 

[jrgreene1968]

It's going to take more a good wash for those cylinders.   It looks like they were bored too big and what you see are tool marks from the boring bar.  Where is the cross hatch?  Do you think you might have issue with the rings lining up?  I know the experts here don't think that.

Rings very well could be lined up Max     Don't know what was done for assembly checks or what the parts looked/measured to at the start. Don't even know what was done to the heads or the chamber size.  If it was me fixing it I would take it apart and go thru it .   Bob

Added:  No mention of any crank checks either 

I agree.. I'd take it apart and start over. Like max said.. there's way to much going on there. I asked a few questions above, but he didn't answer.

[chris.m.j]

Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.

I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.

[98fxstc]

Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.

I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.

Check comment by the Admiral.
Check the bore size (and round and true) and hatching while you have it apart.
Most of these guys know what they are talking about.
One doesn't.

[FXDBI]

Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.

I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.

Don't kid yourself if you think all of us have never had to take something apart again after a overhaul. Its all part of the learning curve of fixing things. You did the right thing stopping before you do damage and investigating, much cheaper than going to failure.  Any buddy tells you they never had to disassemble anything in there life a second time is a bare faced liar. Don't let it get you down learn from it and move on.   Bob

[Scotty]

Better safe than sorry I suppose. I could probably use the practice. So second time around I'll get those cylinders extra clean, put the rings in extra careful.

I need a break from these forums, and you guys need a break from me. Thanks for the help.

Don't kid yourself if you think all of us have never had to take something apart again after a overhaul. Its all part of the learning curve of fixing things. You did the right thing stopping before you do damage and investigating, much cheaper than going to failure.  Any buddy tells you they never had to disassemble anything in there life a second time is a bare faced liar. Don't let it get you down learn from it and move on.   Bob

I have never had to do it twice.......3 or 4 times maybe but never just twice 

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Borescopes have caused many an engine to be torn down needlessly...
Makes folks believe the shy is falling.

[Deye76]

Borescopes have caused many an engine to be torn down needlessly...
Makes folks believe the shy is falling.

This guy knows what he's talking about, he actually does it for a living.

[MikeL]

Borescopes have caused many an engine to be torn down needlessly...
Makes folks believe the sky is falling.

I agree with Scott.   

                                                                                                       MIKE