alright folks... My oil pressure light has been on since a I picked it up from the dealer last Friday after getting a new drive belt and had them do a fluid change while there.
I removed the wire from the sensor and the light went out, touched it to the sensor and comes back on. So I don't think it's grounding out somewhere in between. In the process of removing the wire, I noticed the top portion of the sensor was cracked. So I replaced it with a new sensor... Light is still on and at all RPMs
There is no rattle or knocking at all from the engine top or bottom.
I pulled the sensor off and started the engine and oil does flow from the sensor hole. It's not spraying out, but at an idle it's a steady stream.
As a reminder, I did lose the oil pump back in April this year and replaced with a stock replacement. Have ridden 2000+ miles since the change with no issues. Perhaps a piece of debris got dislodged during the oil change and caught in a passage?
I hope your not riding it. Put a gauge in the sensor hole for a brief test. Idle and around 2,00O but brief. What happened to the previous pump?
Maybe the dealer removed the screen for cleaning and caused a problem at that point.
Quote from: kd on December 08, 2023, 07:58:27 PMI hope your not riding it. Put a gauge in the sensor hole for a brief test. Idle and around 2,00 but brief. What happened to the previous pump?
Maybe the dealer removed the screen for cleaning and caused a problem at that point.
I'm not exactly sure what happened first. But the pump drive gear exploded.
I rode it off the trailer and out to the office and back. About 8 miles total to see if it would go out when warm, no luck. Oil is definitely flowing, and tappet screen is clear.
I'll throw a gauge on it and see what it says.
Lifters would clatter with no oil pressure . Unless solids
In your first post, first sentence, the Dealer effed it up
These days, the parts guy at the dealer chuckles and says the Evo is older then the service technicians that work there.
Quote from: 98s1lightning on December 11, 2023, 10:07:06 AMIn your first post, first sentence, the Dealer effed it up
These days, the parts guy at the dealer chuckles and says the Evo is older then the service technicians that work there.
Perhaps... My bet is the fluid change dislodged some debris that is now partially blocking an oil passage... Just my feelings.
When I did the oil pump repair, I was on a very tight time constraint. So I didn't drop the oil pan or open the crankcase. I flushed it and inspected with a light and borescope, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if a piece of metal, gasket, or just junk from the hoses got into the oil system and is now in one of those little oil passages.
A pressure gauge would help tell the story.
Idk how to post pics but VULCAN makes a nice stainless gauge adapter for where the lifter screen is accessed
Six, put a gauge on it. Your an engineer. You know all about facts and how important they are. Flow doesn't need pressure when you have roller bearings dumping the oil.
My point with the screen is checking the flow through there too. With that plug installed again, wrap the tip of an air nozzle and blow backwards through the oil pressure gauge port. (The screen chamber feeds the oil pressure gauge gallery directly.) Reinstall the gauge and check for a change in pressure. If anything is holding a valve open there will be a huge pressure drop.
The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter. If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues. It is also one of the last things changed before the oil pressure drop. If the oil pressure drop was immediately after the service it's a top candidate. BTW, were any oil lines removed for any reason?
I want to repeat, if you can't confirm oil flowing in a decent amount through the screen port or the gauge port on the crankcase, don't get too carried away with running it.
You mention that the Dealer did a Fluid Change on Your EVO.
Do You happen to know if they put a Twin Cam Oil Filter on there instead of an EVO Filter?
I have heard numerous times over the years that the Twin Cam Filter is more restrictive of Oil flow than an EVO Filter.
I don't have any hands-on personal experience with that, I have always used the Evo Filter on an EVO, and a T/C Filter on a T/C.
So, how true that statement may be, I really don't know.
Someone may have a better explanation about the Filter usage than Me.
Quote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 07:22:45 PMSix, put a gauge on it. Your an engineer. You know all about facts and how important they are. Flow doesn't need pressure when you have roller bearings dumping the oil.
My point with the screen is checking the flow through there too. With that plug installed again, wrap the tip of an air nozzle and blow backwards through the oil pressure gauge port. (The screen chamber feeds the oil pressure gauge gallery directly.) Reinstall the gauge and check for a change in pressure. If anything is holding a valve open there will be a huge pressure drop.
The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter. If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues. It is also one of the last things changed before the oil pressure drop. If the oil pressure drop was immediately after the service it's a top candidate. BTW, were any oil lines removed for any reason?
I want to repeat, if you can't confirm oil flowing in a decent amount through the screen port or the gauge port on the crankcase, don't get too carried away with running it.
yeah, I'm working on getting a gauge.
I pulled the tappet screen, it was clean, and there was oil there, but I didn't run to see how much was coming through. I've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 07:52:17 PMI've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.
That's an old wives tail. They don't interchange.
(https://imgsh.net/i/CKXIJwA.png)
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 11, 2023, 08:02:46 PMQuote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 07:52:17 PMI've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.
That's an old wives tail. They don't interchange.
(https://imgsh.net/i/CKXIJwA.png)
filter.... oil filter... :hyst:
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 08:04:02 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on December 11, 2023, 08:02:46 PMQuote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 07:52:17 PMI've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.
That's an old wives tail. They don't interchange.
(https://imgsh.net/i/CKXIJwA.png)
filter.... oil filter... :hyst:
:emoGroan: man, I need to clean these reading glasses.... :hyst:
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 11, 2023, 08:09:20 PM:emoGroan: man, I need to clean these reading glasses.... :hyst:
hey, I got a laugh out of it... I had to reread my post twice to make sure I spelled it right.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 07:52:17 PMQuote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 07:22:45 PMSix, put a gauge on it. Your an engineer. You know all about facts and how important they are. Flow doesn't need pressure when you have roller bearings dumping the oil.
My point with the screen is checking the flow through there too. With that plug installed again, wrap the tip of an air nozzle and blow backwards through the oil pressure gauge port. (The screen chamber feeds the oil pressure gauge gallery directly.) Reinstall the gauge and check for a change in pressure. If anything is holding a valve open there will be a huge pressure drop.
The other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter. If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues. It is also one of the last things changed before the oil pressure drop. If the oil pressure drop was immediately after the service it's a top candidate. BTW, were any oil lines removed for any reason?
I want to repeat, if you can't confirm oil flowing in a decent amount through the screen port or the gauge port on the crankcase, don't get too carried away with running it.
yeah, I'm working on getting a gauge.
I pulled the tappet screen, it was clean, and there was oil there, but I didn't run to see how much was coming through. I've read about dealers using TC filters, the service ticket calls out the correct -80A filter, but who knows.
Yes, I realize you checked the screen. My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged. Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change.
As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated. The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure.
Quote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 08:48:47 PMYes, I realize you checked the screen. My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged. Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change.
As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated. The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure.
no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 08:58:35 PMQuote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 08:48:47 PMYes, I realize you checked the screen. My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged. Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change.
As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated. The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure.
no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.
The oil passes through the screen chamber on the way to the gallery to the pressure switch. All you did was blow out that link. With the pressure switch in, blow into the screen chamber with a rag sealing the air nozzle. That will push back on that part of the gallery and clear it. Not important but it will also feed past the pressure switch to the lifters and pushrods.
Do you have another filter to try?
Quote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 09:19:28 PMQuote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 08:58:35 PMQuote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 08:48:47 PMYes, I realize you checked the screen. My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged. Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change.
As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated. The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure.
no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.
The oil passes through the screen chamber on the way to the gallery to the pressure switch. All you did was blow out that link. With the pressure switch in, blow into the screen chamber with a rag sealing the air nozzle. That will push back on that part of the gallery and clear it. Not important but it will also feed past the pressure switch to the lifters and pushrods.
Do you have another filter to try?
I sure do. I have several known good filters.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 09:20:39 PMQuote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 09:19:28 PMQuote from: SixShooter14 on December 11, 2023, 08:58:35 PMQuote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 08:48:47 PMYes, I realize you checked the screen. My point is blowing back may confirm there is air passing through the system and not plugged. Restarting it and getting better oil flow will indicate a change.
As far as the filter goes, if oil isn't getting to the pump (or the lack of sump oil due to low flow causes the sump return system to pick up, carry and introduce air) the pressure can be defeated. The aerated oil can cause cavitation in the pump and consequently no pressure.
no luck there. blew air in the pressure sensor hole and it sprayed out the tappet screen hole, a small bit of oil. Started and didn't see any oil in the screen hole and still no pressure.
The oil passes through the screen chamber on the way to the gallery to the pressure switch. All you did was blow out that link. With the pressure switch in, blow into the screen chamber with a rag sealing the air nozzle. That will push back on that part of the gallery and clear it. Not important but it will also feed past the pressure switch to the lifters and pushrods.
Do you have another filter to try?
I sure do. I have several known good filters.
If you know it to be correct for your Evo you can always try one. If it's not visually identical it may be wrong. (The twin cam filter should work but with reduced flow due to filter element difference.). If it works then you found the problem. If not wrap the filter and save it for you next service.
Quote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 09:34:32 PMIf you know it to be correct for your Evo you can always try one. If it's not visually identical it may be wrong. (The twin cam filter should work but with reduced flow due to filter element difference.). If it works then you found the problem. If not wrap the filter and save it for you next service.
thanks, I'll swap them tomorrow and see what happens. Also gonna double check hoses and fittings. Never know if something is pinching a line or something.
I did blow air into the screen hole with the pressure sensor in. No luck, ran it for a few seconds but no oil in the screen hole, so I shut her down.
Quote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 07:22:45 PMThe other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter. If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues.
The oil filter is on the scavenge side of the oil circuit, it will have no effect on oil pressure.
Quote from: Dan89flstc on December 12, 2023, 05:09:38 AMQuote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 07:22:45 PMThe other thing not mentioned yet is the "new" oil filter. If the bypass is open it can cause similar issues.
The oil filter is on the scavenge side of the oil circuit, it will have no effect on oil pressure.
:agree: correct^^^^^^^^^^^^
I had a 1998 Evo Ultra come in about two years ago with "low oil pressure". It checked good with a mechanical gauge. It took two or three new sending units to get one that turned off the light. If I recall correctly, the one that worked came from Cycle Pro.
Quote from: kd on December 11, 2023, 09:34:32 PMIf you know it to be correct for your Evo you can always try one. If it's not visually identical it may be wrong. (The twin cam filter should work but with reduced flow due to filter element difference.). If it works then you found the problem. If not wrap the filter and save it for you next service.
tried swapping the filter but no luck. still not getting oil through the tappet screen hole. gauge is installed in the sensor hole and is of course showing 0.
I thought maybe the pump had lost prime or gotten air in it during the fluid change. So I pulled the check ball out the top of the pump and poured in a good bit of oil and turned it over with the plugs removed. No luck, the oil in the check valve hole isn't even moving.
At this point, I'm thinking the pump gears aren't turning, maybe a sheared key?
Welp, found the issue.... The retaining ring that goes against the crank bearing was sitting in the bottom of the cam chest and the oil pump drive gear and worm gear are a bit chewed up but not terribly bad. cam, pinion, and breather gears all look fine. Lifters and rollers are also good.
It seems the pump drive gear key sheared and unclear about the keys in the pump itself. I pulled the outer pump cover off and removed the pressure side idler, it looks fine. But the pressure side drive gear will not budge. I got the circlip off it but cannot get it to slide off the shaft.
Will continue tearing it down tomorrow.
Time to pull the Cam cover
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 17, 2023, 04:35:58 PMWelp, found the issue.... The retaining ring that goes against the crank bearing was sitting in the bottom of the cam chest and the oil pump drive gear and worm gear are a bit chewed up but not terribly bad. cam, pinion, and breather gears all look fine. Lifters and rollers are also good.
It seems the pump drive gear key sheared and unclear about the keys in the pump itself. I pulled the outer pump cover off and removed the pressure side idler, it looks fine. But the pressure side drive gear will not budge. I got the circlip off it but cannot get it to slide off the shaft.
Will continue tearing it down tomorrow.
Six, all the way through this thread I was having a flashback but didn't want to believe it was what happened to you. I figured it had to be related to the dealer service. I was on a road trip to Vancouver Island and went to the car wash in Duncan. About 2 blocks later no oil pressure. I did all the oil pressure tests I mentioned and no joy. Off with the cam cover. The pinion bearing end that holds the rollers in had broke away and headed straight for the oil pump. The same results as you.
Here's the tough part. While that pump was chewing on the shrapnel, it was feeding the fine stuff to the rest of the engine. I was lucky enough (if you want to call it that) to be in Duncan which is about 20 minutes from Cobble Hill and a good friend Marve Brimicome. He was a world record holding top fuel sand drag racer (Marves Speed Shop - Experi-mental Racing) He passed away a few years ago but had a full machine shop. We knocked the sidecar off and pulled the engine for a full rebuild.
Be careful about short cuts. If the brand new oil is sparkling, there's bits in the cam case and there's slivers on the magnet. you get the rest. It's probably already been sent to the crank and rods because you were riding it, so it'll be split the wheels. Time for a winter stroker project to make some lemonade. I feel your pain bud. The difference is, I was a four day ride from home and had to do it then and there.
:wtf:
terrible or bad luck
:scoot:
Ultima 113.
:SM:
-JW
Why do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first????
Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out?
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing.
Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can.
The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.
Quote from: 98s1lightning on December 18, 2023, 08:51:06 AMWhy do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first????
Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out?
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing.
Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can.
The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.
I've wondered the same thing. Maybe the dealer used an impact when removing or installing the comp nut and that hammered the bearing race against the clip? IDK
another possibility.... When I replaced that ring back in April I did have a little trouble getting the ring on. I felt like I overstretched/twisted it at the time. I turned it around the shaft and made sure it was in the ring, but wasn't 100% confident. So perhaps I did have it a bit out parallel and it just finally let go.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 18, 2023, 10:13:50 AMQuote from: 98s1lightning on December 18, 2023, 08:51:06 AMWhy do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first????
Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out?
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing.
Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can.
The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.
I've wondered the same thing. Maybe the dealer used an impact when removing or installing the comp nut and that hammered the bearing race against the clip? IDK
another possibility.... When I replaced that ring back in April I did have a little trouble getting the ring on. I felt like I overstretched/twisted it at the time. I turned it around the shaft and made sure it was in the ring, but wasn't 100% confident. So perhaps I did have it a bit out parallel and it just finally let go.
.
Six, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out. If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks. I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.
Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you rennet if the sharp side of the clip was facing out. If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks. I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.
I sure don't. I'll give it a look and may can tell.
Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out. If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks. I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.
There's a witness mark matching the bearing race on the clip. It appears that that side is the sharper/square side, if I'm reading it right. The other has some chewed up marks and is mangled a bit, but appears to be
slightly beveled.
So....I think... the inner pinion bearing race walked out, ran against the clip for unknown amount of time. The clip eventually let go and was chewed up.
Second event, the pump drive gear key is sheared and the scavenge gears are seized up, assuming they pulled in some chunk of ring and locked up/chewed up the pump shaft and housing.
Now the question is... what to do next?
Seems like the answer is pull the engine?
then R&R it or just pay the money and go S&S/Ultima crate? I'm thinking a V111 long block might be in the future? :pop: :scratch:
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 18, 2023, 07:09:43 PMQuote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out. If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks. I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.
There's a witness mark matching the bearing race on the clip. It appears that that side is the sharper/square side, if I'm reading it right. The other has some chewed up marks and is mangled a bit, but appears to be slightly beveled.
So....I think... the inner pinion bearing race walked out, ran against the clip for unknown amount of time. The clip eventually let go and was chewed up.
Second event, the pump drive gear key is sheared and the scavenge gears are seized up, assuming they pulled in some chunk of ring and locked up/chewed up the pump shaft and housing.
As said, the sharp edge should have been out. That's what stops it from escaping. I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc). One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout. The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore. There's not much holding it back like the other side. While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan. :banghead:
Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PMAs said, the sharp edge should have been out. That's what stops it from escaping. I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc). One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout. The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore. There's not much holding it back like the other side. While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan. :banghead:
I don't have a pinion runout tool right now, but will definitely get one for the future. This is the 2nd time that inner race has walked out. So I'm betting that's the issue. It's a stock bottom end with 61k miles on it. about 8k of that with the increased compression and cam. Seems the added power is just looking for the weakest link and found it.
The engine has to be pulled regardless to replace the buggered oil pump shaft and bushing. The shaft is pretty mangled and has some resistance in turning. If I'm pulling it, I might as well replace with something bigger. I think I will do the repairs on this 80" and keep an eye out for a deal on an EVO project bike to stick it in.
It's still early winter here, so I might was well get into it.
$6k on a V111 seems like the route I'm going. Along with clutch and probably a DD6, but still some research to do on picking the trans.
I would suggest looking for input from guys who have used or has experience with either S&S or Ultima crate motors for Evo. Such as jsachs1, wfolarry, turboprop, JW113, Deye76. I'm sure there are others, but these guys come to mind.
Sometimes the crate motors can have built in issues.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 19, 2023, 01:36:04 PMQuote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PMAs said, the sharp edge should have been out. That's what stops it from escaping. I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc). One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout. The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore. There's not much holding it back like the other side. While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan. :banghead:
I don't have a pinion runout tool right now, but will definitely get one for the future. This is the 2nd time that inner race has walked out. So I'm betting that's the issue. It's a stock bottom end with 61k miles on it. about 8k of that with the increased compression and cam. Seems the added power is just looking for the weakest link and found it.
The engine has to be pulled regardless to replace the buggered oil pump shaft and bushing. The shaft is pretty mangled and has some resistance in turning. If I'm pulling it, I might as well replace with something bigger. I think I will do the repairs on this 80" and keep an eye out for a deal on an EVO project bike to stick it in.
It's still early winter here, so I might was well get into it.
$6k on a V111 seems like the route I'm going. Along with clutch and probably a DD6, but still some research to do on picking the trans.
:up: :koolaid: :up:
I'd also look at having your motor rebuilt professionally. An 80 inch motor with some headwork, a decent cam, carburetor to match, can make a fine running bike for less than a crate motor.
A guy can also use S&S 3-5/8 cylinders with the stock 4-1/4 stroke making an 88 incher. Smoother than a longer stroke, and capable of making lots of torque. I'd be tempted to go that route.
Ultima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine. :up:
John
Quote from: jsachs1 on December 19, 2023, 02:25:33 PMUltima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine. :up:
John
I appreciate it. I certainly haven't ruled out the 113 or bigger Ultimas.
I'd ditch the OEM Evo style pinion shaft that uses thinner race and put a set of S&S flywheels in it that take a 1 pc shaft.
But then I think you would have to swap cam covers to a early evo/shovel style. The pinion race location offset is different.
https://www.sscycle.com › docs › default-source › instruction-sheets › 51-1021_pinionshaftsbt_20060406.pdf?sfvrsn=4
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 19, 2023, 02:21:30 PMI'd also look at having your motor rebuilt professionally. An 80 inch motor with some headwork, a decent cam, carburetor to match, can make a fine running bike for less than a crate motor.
A guy can also use S&S 3-5/8 cylinders with the stock 4-1/4 stroke making an 88 incher. Smoother than a longer stroke, and capable of making lots of torque. I'd be tempted to go that route.
Yeah, that's the likely plan for the current 80". Send it out or at least the bottom end and crank out for a rebuild. It's a strong engine but $4k for the Ultima is mighty tempting.
But for now...
I'll check that pinion runout that KD mentioned above. Then I'll have a better idea as to what kind of shape this engine is in.
Or just fix what needs fixin' as cheap as possible and run it 'til it blows.
I know, blasphemy.
Quote from: jsachs1 on December 19, 2023, 02:25:33 PMUltima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine. :up:
John
If it was me I'd get in contact with John Sachs (^) of Sachs Race Bikes and have him do an Ultima motor to meet your needs and desires. He's an industry insider and has been intimately involved in many things Harley and high performance including Ultima engines. You won't be sorry...
Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PMQuote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out. If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks. I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.
As said, the sharp edge should have been out. That's what stops it from escaping. I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc). One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout. The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore. There's not much holding it back like the other side. While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan. :banghead:
I have the new S&S retainer ring, the same as the previous one and it doesn't look beveled at all, both sides are sharp... :nix:
Regardless, I finally got the runout measured...
right at 0.004" when turning the engine and a little less than 0.001" lifting on the end of the shaft.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 07, 2024, 07:01:18 PMQuote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PMQuote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out. If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks. I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.
As said, the sharp edge should have been out. That's what stops it from escaping. I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc). One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout. The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore. There's not much holding it back like the others side. While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan. :banghead:
I have the new S&S retainer ring, the same as the previous one and it doesn't look beveled at all, both sides are sharp... :nix:
Regardless, I finally got the runout measured... right at 0.004" when turning the engine and a little less than 0.001" lifting on the end of the shaft.
.
It appears to me your crank is good on runout. If you don't break it down at least check the rod play per the manual. If the play there is good do a super flush over and over while rotating it to make sure the are no fines left in the rod bearings and gallery. Don't go cheap on the flushing agent. Use plenty clean. Save the runoff and after it settles you can run it through a filter paper to see what you have.
Here's a little trick for checking what you're flushing out. Catch the solvent you are using to clean the bearings and galleries in a surgical clean container and save it to another equally clean one. (Use a gentle air nozzle etc to clean the galleries. Pour the solvent you drain off into the other container. Add a cup or so of water to the second can and let it settle for 24 hrs. Any metal bits will settle into the water and be trapped. Carefully drain off the solvent into the original container to be used for cleaning parts later. Carefully trickle the water and residue onto a fine preferably white paper towel. A magnifying glass can be used to examine your catch.
The oil pan is another issue.
When you look at the retainer you will see it is stamped out. The side the stamp mill pushes the washer slug out from will have a slightly sharper perimeter edge. That edge should go out as it will have a better bite and help it stay in place. Hopefully the groove is clean and sharp without burrs.
Isn't Ultima made in China.
Also the retaining clips are pressed so the inside diameter of clip has a slight bevel as KD said. You can feel it on your finger nail. Sharp edge faces away from flywheel to seat against the groove in pinion shaft . As you say you popped it twice check the pinion shaft groove
Quote from: JSD on January 09, 2024, 10:09:21 PMIsn't Ultima made in China.
Also the retaining clips are pressed so the inside diameter of clip has a slight bevel as KD said. You can feel it on your finger nail. Sharp edge faces away from flywheel to seat against the groove in pinion shaft . As you say you popped it twice check the pinion shaft groove
yep, I can't see the bevel but I can feel it catching the callouses on my fingers. I marked the clip to put the sharp edge out.
Figured I'd drop in with an update.
Weather finally warmed up enough so my garage is above freezing with the heaters on.
I'm in the process of removing the engine and got the primary open and found one of the alternator rotor magnets stuck to the stator. So that's nice.
Getting a new rotor, but had a quick thought.
Has anyone successfully re-glued a magnet back in place? some sort of epoxy or something?... was just a slow winter time curiosity.
Sorry nope
it's not something I'd do :SM:
Those are the answers I expected. I got my new rotor in last week.
Also, got the engine out and on the bench. Next time the temp gets above freezing, I'll work on that oil pump shaft/gear.
Supposedly, a Gerotor oil pump will filter from the pressure side.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 23, 2024, 02:19:14 PMFigured I'd drop in with an update.
Weather finally warmed up enough so my garage is above freezing with the heaters on.
I'm in the process of removing the engine and got the primary open and found one of the alternator rotor magnets stuck to the stator. So that's nice.
Getting a new rotor, but had a quick thought.
Has anyone successfully re-glued a magnet back in place? some sort of epoxy or something?... was just a slow winter time curiosity.
I glued one my shovel several years ago. Holding up just fine. Probably over 30,000 plus miles.
An update for ya'll
Took a little bit of work, but I got the engine reinstalled about 2 weeks ago. Whew, next time she comes out, I'm going to have a table lift and grab a friend for some assistance.
Spent last weekend installing the primary and routing oil lines.
Spent yesterday on the intake and exhaust and today got the gas tank back on, refilled all the fluids, installed a new battery, and primed the new oil pump... Finally fired her up. No issues, cranked over about 3 times and fired off. Oil pressure sitting around 10-15psi at idle. Supposed to be nice Tuesday and Wednesday. Hopefully I can get out and get everything warmed up and check for leaks and retorques.
ahh...nuts.
Fired her up today to ride to work and after about a minute some oil started dripping from the supply hose. Wasn't quite a stream, but was a steady 1 or 2 drips per second.... Shut her down and wiped it clean, it's coming from under the hose around the barb fitting. Gonna have to get some new oil lines.
Use this, way better than auto parts hose. Will withstand high temperatures.
https://www.eastwood.com/derale-3-8-i-d-x-25-hi-temp-oil-hose-13017.html
SAE J30R7 is commonly available in most auto parts stores and has worked fine on my Softail EVO for many years.
A little harder to find, oil hose good to 300 degrees f:
SAE J30R9.
SAE J1019.
slowly getting there... Got the new oil line back on and no more leaks.
Trouble now is I get a small knock just off idle... It sounds fine when idling slow or with just the starter spinning. But the minute I add a touch of throttle it starts knocking (I believe from the front).... I checked the pushrod adjustment a couple times now and they are adjusted properly.
I did look at the pushrods and lifters when I had the engine out and didn't notice any damage, but I didn't try pressing on the lifter pistons to see how they bleed down. But while adjusting, they seemed to bleed down fine after 10-15 minutes. Could it be one is not holding pressure or needs fully cleaned?
Other thought is maybe the compensator is loose, bad, or not installed correctly?
ETA: Maybe the comp. nut is bottoming out due to the new alternator rotor (maybe it's a touch thinner than previous?
Quote from: SixShooter14 on April 14, 2024, 01:58:46 PMslowly getting there... Got the new oil line back on and no more leaks.
Trouble now is I get a small knock just off idle... It sounds fine when idling slow or with just the starter spinning. But the minute I add a touch of throttle it starts knocking (I believe from the front).... I checked the pushrod adjustment a couple times now and they are adjusted properly.
I did look at the pushrods and lifters when I had the engine out and didn't notice any damage, but I didn't try pressing on the lifter pistons to see how they bleed down. But while adjusting, they seemed to bleed down fine after 10-15 minutes. Could it be one is not holding pressure or needs fully cleaned?
Other thought is maybe the compensator is loose, bad, or not installed correctly?
ETA: Maybe the comp. nut is bottoming out due to the new alternator rotor (maybe it's a touch thinner than previous?
hmm... Pulled the inspection cover and compensator doesn't budge in either direction. No movement at all and chain has right around 3/4" give in it.
Thinking maybe at least 1 lifter is either no-bueno or lost it's prime when I jacked around with the oil leak. It took a couple tries to get the oil to maintain it's prime overnight with the leak I mentioned earlier. A couple times as I was turning the engine over with the starter, I know the gauge was showing 0 and tappet screen was empty (tells me the lifters weren't getting oil) So they absolutely may have pumped out and not been able to refill.
Anyone have advice on making sure the lifters are primed now that everything is together?
I am sure you have heard it said here that the hydraulic lifter is the best known oil filter there is. Considering the type of engine failure that sent you down this path, I would think it's very possible that you have a contaminated lifter body. You had a lot of metal fines go through your oil galleries, lines and tank. It's almost impossible to clear that from the system 100%. Especially the oil tank baffles. Most that know this replace the tank rather than trying the impossible - cleaning it well enough.
Not actually hearing the "knock" but going by your description I would be inclined to pull the lifters, disassemble them on a clean white towel, surgically clean them, prime them in a jar with vacuum and retest them. DO NOT use an oil squirt can to prime them. There's a better chance than not that you will reintroduce even 1 tiny spec of dirt that will cause a contamination failure.
Quote from: kd on April 14, 2024, 09:28:34 PMI am sure you have heard it said here that the hydraulic lifter is the best known oil filter there is. Considering the type of engine failure that sent you down this path, I would think it's very possible that you have a contaminated lifter body. You had a lot of metal fines go through your oil galleries, lines and tank. It's almost impossible to clear that from the system 100%. Especially the oil tank baffles. Most that know this replace the tank rather than trying the impossible - cleaning it well enough.
Not actually hearing the "knock" but going by your description I would be inclined to pull the lifters, disassemble them on a clean white towel, surgically clean them, prime them in a jar with vacuum and retest them. DO NOT use an oil squirt can to prime them. There's a better chance than not that you will reintroduce even 1 tiny spec of dirt that will cause a contamination failure.
That's kinda what I was thinking too. Definitely could have been a spec of debris introduced at some point of the process.
I decided to check the primary chain tension and was able to turn the sprocket a small bit. Rocking forward and back. It wasn't loose, but with a little pressure it definitely turned. The spring cup was tight
I pulled the primary cover and noticed that the turning I was getting was the comp. sprocket ramps contacting fore and aft.
I'm thinking the compensator nut may be bottoming out or bound up on something and not getting full pressure. I'm going to give it a thorough cleaning try re-installing with proper torque and measure the stack depth. (unfortunately, I didn't measure the stack prior to removal)
Here's the view from the rear prior to removing the nut.
20240415_201449.jpg
cut 50 thou of the nut while you have the comp apart
(https://i.imgur.com/gcXVa7n.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ejuVjY7.jpg)
That picture tells the story.
worth a read :SM:
https://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=73290 (https://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=73290)
yep, taking .050" off the nut tomorrow to make sure it's not bottoming out. And I've got the .055" shim and a .020" shim to align the front/rear sprockets as needed.
Quote from: FSG on April 16, 2024, 04:24:16 PMworth a read :SM:
https://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=73290 (https://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=73290)
whew, that's a lot of good reading ... glad you included pictures. :koolaid:
a good pic is worth a 1000 words :SM:
Quote from: FSG on April 16, 2024, 09:25:32 PMa good pic is worth a 1000 words :SM:
Speaking of pictures...I measured the old vs. new rotor and found the below numbers.
When I installed the new rotor a couple weeks ago, I left the shim in and therefore the sprocket would have been 0.020" more outboard than the previous rotor.....
Would that have been enough to cause the knocking I was hearing? or is it still more likely tied to the comp either being too little torque or the nut bottoming out?
Regardless, I'm going to shorten the comp nut today. Then I'll reinstall, torque properly, and make doubly sure the sprocket alignments is correct.
Comp_Section.jpeg