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Weak points?

Started by Xyzzy, April 08, 2018, 06:45:11 PM

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Hossamania

My thought is if the wires are less than perfect, and/or the heat is compromising them, the spark may be jumping to the covers, and from there jumping to ground on the motor. Whether the heat or shorting out, long term testing without them on will let you know if they are suspect.
Can you post a picture of the covers installed?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

May 10, 2018, 05:39:20 AM #26 Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 06:22:34 AM by Hossamania
A friend of mine had an aftermarket coil on his FatBoy, after a year it started acting up. It turned out the stock chrome coil cover had rubbed on a plug wire and was shorting to ground. It didn't cut into the wire, so much as create a rub mark. Removed the cover, all good, same wires still running. Just food for thought.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

fbn ent

Toss the covers and ride it  :bike:. I have never trusted any fancy, sparky, dressy things that are related to plugs or plug wires.
'02 FLTRI - 103" / '84 FLH - 88"<br />Hinton, Alberta

Hossamania

Quote from: fbn ent on May 10, 2018, 06:17:32 AM
Toss the covers and ride it  :bike:. I have never trusted any fancy, sparky, dressy things that are related to plugs or plug wires.

Same here, but then I'm a fan of function over form, generally.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

fbn ent

'02 FLTRI - 103" / '84 FLH - 88"<br />Hinton, Alberta

Xyzzy

Today I'll be putting more than 300 miles on the bike so it will be a good test to see if the covers were the issue. It is supposed to get pretty warm, too.

I'm a fan of function over form as well. The covers were cheap and looked pretty cool, but if they are the problem I have no issue with losing them.

FWIW, when I looked at the insulator and strap on the plugs I pulled yesterday they looked okay. I've seen plugs that have been run too lean and mine didn't look like that. Very weird!

Hossamania

I would think if they were misfiring, they would run a bit rich, not lean. Still getting the same amount of fuel, but not burning it completely.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Xyzzy

May 10, 2018, 04:57:01 PM #32 Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 05:02:25 PM by Xyzzy
Okay, today has been weird.

The bike ran fine all the way to my appointment, about 100 miles. I'm thinking the plug cover removal did the trick! The CHT even got into the 380F range.

When I started the bike up after my appointment, it immediately started running rough. The CHT at startup was 95F. I rode it around the parking lot a little to see if it would clear up. I pulled the rear cylinder plug wire and let it run on just the front, and then I pulled the front cylinder plug wire and let it run on just the rear. I reseated the plug wires very securely. I moved the wires around in a bunch of directions to see if there was a break in the wire. The bike still ran rough.

The roughness is always only at partial throttle. It runs smooth at idle and at 50% to WOT. It doesn't feel like it is going to stall. The misfires are very brief.

I was able to get on the highway within a mile and after a hard run up to speed things smoothed out. In the past I haven't been able to "power through" the rough running.

What I have eliminated/learned:

  • I removed the plug covers but it happens with and without them.
  • I put the OEM plugs back in but it happens with both sets of plugs.
  • The plug wires seem structurally intact.
  • There is no audible pinging or backfiring.
  • The bike ran fine for the first 13,000 miles/6 weeks I have had it. (Cooler weather?)
  • I always use 93 octane fuel.
  • It isn't bad gas, unless every station I go to has bad gas, and even then the problem wouldn't come and go away, it would last the whole tank of bad fuel.
  • It occasionally stumbles (for a few minutes) when:

    • It the motor is hot.
    • When the motor is cool.
    • Never at idle or WOT.
    • I ride a lot so the stumble is a very very small percentage of my overall miles. (But it still bothers me a lot!)
When I got home tonight I pulled the battery and reinstalled it making sure all the connections were secure.

My next plan:

  • When it happens again look at my voltmeter to see if there is a voltage loss.
  • Open the gas cap to make sure there is not a vacuum in the tank.
  • Dunno what else to check!
Oddball idea: Change the spark plug gap?

I don't know how to isolate this issue to either an electrical problem or a fuel problem.

Edit: My speedometer can pull codes. It says there are no codes stored to look at.

Xyzzy

No weirdness yesterday.

Last night I "reprogrammed" the ECU and reset the fuel trims. I also used the tuner (SE) to check for codes in case my speedometer deal is wonky. There were no codes.

I'll put on a few hundred miles today. I'd say if it never acted up again I'd be happy, but I wouldn't. I really want to know WHY it is/was acting up.

:smilep:

Hossamania

There was a problem with fretting at the ECU connectors and throttle body connectors on some bikes in the past. You might try disconnecting and cleaning them.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

fbn ent

I have had issues with my FL with the Thundermax auto tuning itself stupid. It is a pretty good indicator that a: Intake seals are leaking or b: exhaust gaskets are letting in air and messing up the tune. The intake  leaks only reared their ugly heads when running at high temps. Different I know but perhaps one or the other could be the culprit.  :scratch:
'02 FLTRI - 103" / '84 FLH - 88"<br />Hinton, Alberta

Xyzzy

I rode 430 miles today. Some interesting stuff happened:
  • It was 97F here. The CHT never got any higher than 383F.
  • When I first started the bike this morning, it acted up badly. Like usual, I take off immediately, so when I hit 30MPH I killed the ignition and cycled it back on. The bike ran fine then. (!)
  • For the rest of the day the bike ran perfectly, except during very-low/load-slow speed situations, such as tooling through small ghost towns at 30MPH in 3rd. Then the fuelling felt "floaty" or like it was hunting. (I am not good a describing this!) Cycling the ignition had no effect on this behavior.
  • But, for 99% of the ride, the bike was fine.
  • The voltage never dropped during any of the poor running episodes. Opening the gas tank had no effect. I've had the bike act up with a full tank and with an empty tank of fuel.
My new theory:

The change in behavior is so quick I think it is either a sensor that is not initializing properly or maybe a sensor that is drifting into garbage values.

AND/OR:

Because the ambient air temp is higher now, and the bike ran perfectly when the ambient temp was from 30-70F, my tune might be too lean in the low MAP/low RPM area.

Weird data: When I rode in March and April, my primary cover and oil filter never got even close to being too hot to touch. Today, and the last few weeks, the primary cover and oil filter are too hot to touch except very briefly. I don't know how this translates to fuelling performance, but it is a piece of data that is different. Maybe it is indicative of something? (I know the primary and oil filter being hot is okay. I'm just illustrating the conditions where my bike ran flawlessly.)

I will collect more data tomorrow!

Xyzzy

May 13, 2018, 03:58:31 PM #37 Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 04:14:38 PM by Xyzzy
Today's data:

I had a minor instance where the bike started to stumble badly. I had just fuelled up and was pulling out of the gas station. I was in third. I immediately went WOT for a few seconds and...

It cleared up!

All throughout the day the bike exhibited the "floaty" hunting fuelling under low load.

I will now start to give the bike maybe 10-15 seconds to "boot" when I flip on the power. (How long does it take?)

I still have no idea what is happening but I guess I am learning to manage the problem.

Edit: The bike ran for at least an hour at a sustained CHT of 388F and peaked at 396F. The numbers go: 388, 392, 394, 396 so I'm guessing in the ECM they are actually in Celsius and the conversion to Fahrenheit rounds them out to irregular intervals.

In other news, I passed 15K miles today. It took me 56 days. My "fewest days to 15K" was on my Road King last year that took me only 47 days. It took me 79 days on my Low Rider S.

My fuel log is here: http://www.mersenneforum.org/png/fuel.png

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harley_cruiser

Isn't this a new bike, a 18? Is it still under warranty?

Xyzzy

Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on May 13, 2018, 04:16:46 PM
Isn't this a new bike, a 18? Is it still under warranty?

I hope so. They told me I had a two-year unlimited-mile warranty. I asked them if unlimited really meant unlimited. They said yes.

That said, I have no plan to ever take it to a dealer. If it catches on fire I will rebuild it into something better.

Xyzzy

I think I solved the problem of the rough running!

No, really!

Well, I'm pretty sure!

It took several hints and events to clue me in.

1 - When having the episodes of bad running, going WOT would "fix" it.
2 - I had several episodes of bad running after stopping with a hot engine.
3 - I have the crankcase breathers vented to the air cleaner.
4 - On my 10K oil change, I put in 8oz more oil, just because I thought 3/4 full on the dipstick was better than 1/2 full.

I know, you got it now! It is so obvious!

I replaced my air cleaner assembly today. It was a SE deal but now it is a V&H VO2.

I noticed a lot of oil pooled in the TB.

At the 10K oil change when I looked at the TB, there was no oil.

My theory:

The "overfull" oil and high-speed running created a super-mist of oil in the TB.

The oil mist got on some sensor somewhere, corrupting the signal it sends to the computer.

When parked hot, the oil would migrate onto the sensor and cool there and stick.

When I go WOT, the incoming air stream rush "cleans" off the sensor.

What do you think?

I also think this caused the partial throttle problem I had. Maybe the sensor was getting fogged at partial throttle?

I have about 1.5K miles since my last post.

The episodes are becoming less frequent. (My 15K oil change was the normal 1/2 dipstick amount.)

I cleaned out the TB today and put on the new system. It ran flawlessly.

Knock on wood!

:smilep:

Hossamania

It is definitely a possibility. Have you thought about venting to atmosphere (the ground) instead of into the throttle body?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Xyzzy

Quote from: Hossamania on May 18, 2018, 05:50:48 AM
It is definitely a possibility. Have you thought about venting to atmosphere (the ground) instead of into the throttle body?

I have considered that, but I haven't found a way to do it that looks "OEM". (I know I'm weird!)

I rode 300+ miles today. It is incredible how smooth and "happy" the engine is now compared to when it was acting up!

Yesterday I ordered a PV-2 from Jamie, and I am thinking about adding V&H slip-ons.

Not sure which I prefer:

https://products.vanceandhines.com/store/harley/16861/
https://products.vanceandhines.com/store/harley/16863/

I want to keep the stock header since it has the crossover. I think that affects reversion and keeps the low and mid torque from sagging.

Xyzzy

Here are some pictures of the V&H VO2 intake I recently installed.

PS - I know the bike is dirty!

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Hossamania

Thats a good loooking air cleaner. Not very "OEM" looking...      :potstir:
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Xyzzy

Quote from: Xyzzy on May 18, 2018, 05:18:30 PM
Not sure which I prefer:

https://products.vanceandhines.com/store/harley/16861/
https://products.vanceandhines.com/store/harley/16863/

I want to keep the stock header since it has the crossover. I think that affects reversion and keeps the low and mid torque from sagging.

I ended up with the Twin Slash 3" slip-ons. It runs and sounds great!

I'm not sure what I'm going to change/modify/improve next. I've been thinking about a Twin Power lithium battery but I don't know if the Sportster version is going to be as awesome as the "big twin" lithium battery. I think the stock battery is 200 CCA and the Twin Power battery is 250 CCA, but I'm not sure that would be a noticeable difference. The engine is a bit sluggish to start. I don't have compression releases, though. My Low Rider S, once the calibration was updated to open the compression releases, fired up instantly on the stock battery. I'd like that kind of performance for my Sportster.

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Xyzzy

I picked up a vanity plate today.

:smilep:

Hossamania

If I had that plate, my friends would say, "Let's be honest, that should be XXL."
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Xyzzy

You and me both!

I'll just tell people that "XL" is my nickname with the ladies!

:wink:

Xyzzy

Day 72:

:smilep:

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