Howdy folks, following up on my previous thread about replacing my '97 FLHR base gaskets. I'm hoping to begin work this weekend. I have a service manual and James Top-end gasket set. As well as S&S wrist pin clips. I have not yet purchased studs or head bolts. But I may do so before I'm finished.
Anyway....Today, just to see what's-what, I did a compression test and took a look at the spark plugs. These were installed in May and only have about 2000 miles on them. Dummy me forgot my gapping disc at home, 120 miles away, so I didn't check that.
Compression test was done cold with a decently charged battery, though I don't have a charger or tender to make sure it was 100%.
I'll post the results in following posts.
Any comments are welcome. :beer:
Front cylinder.
Rear cylinder.
If you get me involved it become a slippery slope-
I guess you are trying to stop a rear cylinder seep?
Check for pull dimple around the two rear studs.
Quote from: thumper 823 on January 16, 2020, 06:00:40 PM
If you get me involved it become a slippery slope-
I guess you are trying to stop a rear cylinder seep?
Check for pull dimple around the two rear studs.
nah, I appreciate any information.
I have seepage from both cylinder bases that I would like to seal up.
Would you mind elaborating a bit on what I'm to look for there?
Thanks
I will try-
Everyone's pocketbook, needs, desires are different.
As a minimum, set a straight edge against studs on top of the cylinder bore. The thinner the straight edge the better, or remove the studs.
(dont reuse them)
You will prolly see room to drive a truck under the straight edge.
At this point, it gets more complicated.
There are a dozen ways to address this, poor mans to rich mans.
You could stuff rags in all the holes and flat-file it off , that would be poor man and will work with Yamma bond.
Or tear it dwn and have it machined flat.
If you elect to tear it dwn , maybe its time for some other upgrades and take advantage of "whilst you are there"
Quote from: thumper 823 on January 16, 2020, 06:31:47 PM
I will try-
Everyone's pocketbook, needs, desires are different.
As a minimum, set a straight edge against studs on top of the cylinder bore. The thinner the straight edge the better, or remove the studs.
(dont reuse them)
You will prolly see room to drive a truck under the straight edge.
At this point, it gets more complicated.
There are a dozen ways to address this, poor mans to rich mans.
You could stuff rags in all the holes and flat-file it off , that would be poor man and will work with Yamma bond.
Or tear it dwn and have it machined flat.
If you elect to tear it dwn , maybe its time for some other upgrades and take advantage of "whilst you are there"
Thanks, I'll definitely check that. I have a rather thin 150mm scale that I can use and I'll post up some more pics as I go. This is my first time getting below the rocker boxes, so it's a learning process.
I'm not really wanting to do any upgrades yet, a sealed up reliable engine is the goal right now.
If your heads are off I would pull the valves and check guides . If virgin heads run 0.050 off.
If a lot of miles new lifters.
slippppery slope.....
Leaking Evo base gaskets are a result of the Moco never machining that area.
We mount those in a fixture, and skim/machine them perpendicular to the C/L of the bore.
No mo leaks. :smile:
Pay attn to Scott. He deals with these every day.
My cylinders are not HD (axtell) nodular, they dont leak .......(slippery slope)
Plus you should visit him and his shop if you ever get a chance.
It is not a back yard "want a be shop! "
It is the real deal with all kinds of machine capabilities.
The hardest part of that job is scraping the old base gasket off the cylinder base. Before I got my little bench lathe I would use the James print o seal base gaskets they are thick and forgive some of the deeper scratches from scraping.
For the studs if this is the first top end use them over. Make a note when you remove the head nuts if there was 1 nut a little looser than the other check that stud and check the block surface for pull out.
Sounds like you are going to leave the piston in the cylinder by removing the wrist pin.Good way to keep down costs.
MIKE
Thanks for the info. guys.
I forgot I already had studs from a few months ago. But not head bolts.
I do plan to leave the pistons in the cyl.
Quote from: MIKEL on January 17, 2020, 07:02:29 AM
Make a note when you remove the head nuts if there was 1 nut a little looser than the other check that stud and check the block surface for pull out.
^^^ THIS ^^^
Evo's with miles and age tend to pop the studs loose first time you take the heads off. Especially pre-95, which I think are less prone, but not immune. Just be prepared when you go to put the heads back on, one or more head nuts might seem like they are not getting tight.... Can't tell you how many cyl studs I've had to Time-Sert.
-JW
I also like to replace the outboard cylinder head nuts with new H/D cause they chromed them and the chrome lasts. The old style were cadmium and they would look like crap after a while. I never had any luck with those after market covers they would shake off after a while. There like $20 for 4 from the dealer.
MIKE
Before disassembly remove the timing hole plug, wrap a rag around your air line blowgun, blow in the timing plug hole, and watch where your oil leaks are. You may even find a crack in the lifter block area, or behind and under the rear cylinder, worst case scenario. Evo cases sometimes crack in those areas. Easy way to find your oil weeps, and leaks. :wink:
John
Quote from: jsachs1 on January 17, 2020, 02:45:04 PM
Before disassembly remove the timing hole plug, wrap a rag around your air line blowgun, blow in the timing plug hole, and watch where your oil leaks are. You may even find a crack in the lifter block area, or behind and under the rear cylinder, worst case scenario. Evo cases sometimes crack in those areas. Easy way to find your oil weeps, and leaks. :wink:
John
:up:The Master.
Yep. Exactly what happened to mine. Good tip with the air gun, John.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on January 18, 2020, 10:54:32 AM
Yep. Exactly what happened to mine. Good tip with the air gun, John.
-JW
i thought that air gun idea was good until i mentioned it to a mc mech mate who said doing that can blow your seals
Quote from: david lee on January 19, 2020, 11:19:57 PM
i thought that air gun idea was good until i mentioned it to a mc mech mate who said doing that can blow your seals
Well obviously for the more intelligent "mc mech" you would reduce the pressure from 300psi to say 20 or 30 psi so you don't blow every seal out. :banghead:
That is an interesting tip about the air gun. I guess a little pressure would certainly expose the leaks. Sadly, I don't have an air compressor (yet). But, thanks anyways, I'll try to remember that if'n I wind up doing this again (which I'm certain I will at some point)
In other news. After a few delays, I was finally able to get started tonight. I spent about 2 hours building a workbench and draining and removing the fuel tank. Then I had to head in to cook dinner. I'll try to keep y'all updated as I go. But it'll be slow as I only get a few hours per night and I'm trying not to rush through anything. I'm hoping to do the assembly all at once on a weekend. I don't want to split up assembly over several days, I'd likely forget to do something from one day to the next.
"I'd likely forget to do something from one day to the next."
Label items where sequence is important, take pictures.
And above all, make sure you have TFM! And a parts book doesn't hurt either. Good exploded views of what-goes-where.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on January 28, 2020, 05:10:39 PM
And above all, make sure you have TFM! And a parts book doesn't hurt either. Good exploded views of what-goes-where.
-JW
Yup, study that manual before, during, and after each step.
Yep, I have an electronic and hard SM and bookmarked the online parts manual that has the exploded views and part numbers.
I've replaced the rocker box gaskets before with the help of Pete. But this is my first time tackling it alone and then going further.
I have boxes labeled for front and rear and will bag and tag the parts to match fr/rr, in/ex. And I will be taking pictures as well, for my use and to share here so that I know what I'm looking at. Should be able to get both rocker boxes off tomorrow, might get the heads and jugs off too.
Six, if you take a gasket and draw the profile on a piece of cardboard you can pierce holes where the fasteners go and screw them in to those holes as they get removed. You can just draw the holes in a miniature pattern too if you want to save space. Use an awl or ice pic to punch the holes and they'll be small enough to retain the screws when installed. Some of the fasteners are specific to holes and switching them with the one beside it can have catastrophic results. Too long and it can bottom and crack or damage the case. The fasteners that go toward the lifters can dimple the lifter bores for example. Bags are OK if you are comfortable with which bolts go where and some are real close in size and hard to notice.
BTW, while on the subject of fasteners, when you have the cam cover off, consider swapping the 2 bolts that go through the dowel pins in the cam plates for 1/4" studs and 12 point flange nuts. Those fasteners barely catch enough thread to torque and are known to strip the threads out of the block without much effort.
Speaking of studs and flange nuts for the cam plate dowel holes. If you decide to go that route, PM me and I'll send you a set as I have spares.
One suggestion, I always turn off my cell phone when working in the motor. Got a call and missed tightening a jam but on a pushrod tube while changing cams. A mile from home during the test ride it came loose and dropped the rear cylinder. Ended up pushing my RK home in the heat of a Phoenix summer.
EVOS don't have cam plates.
:doh: :oops: I guess it is a '97. Sometime I forget which thread I'm in. :hyst:
Guess I wasn't paying attention either
The devil is in the details and pulling a couple of cylinders is Hot soup on a cold day-pretty simple.
BUT the mistake is not adhering to the advice given here as to why the oil leaks as they are a typical EVO problem.'
just replacing gaskets will not fix the problem is what one wants to pay attn to here.
Having the engine case machined at the top of the spigots would be nice to do if the engine was out and pulled apart, but it does not sound like he wants to or needs to go in that deep.
Try a set of the James or Cometic "Foamet" or steel with silicon printed base gaskets. One reason the stock HD base gaskets leak is less than ideal surfaces, but the other is they are made from thin paper. Have years of heat cycles they get brittle and crack, and that's when you really have a serious oil leak. The steel ones don't/can't do that, and the foamet or silicon is pretty forgiving of the surface quality.
-JW
Alright fellers, do these nuts mean adjustable pushrods?
Should I loosen them before pulling the rocker boxes apart?
YEP.
I guess you now need to pop the nose cone and see what cam is in it?
-JW
That's what I'm thinkin too. :scratch:
The nose cone is still riveted, so either it's factory or they replaced the rivets instead of screws.
But, one step at a time.
Do I still need the piston at TDC to loosen the pushrods and remove the lower rocker assy?
The easy way is to roll it over until both lifters on the cylinder are at the low point then do the next one. Pull the plugs when you do it to kill any compression. Those look like Smith Bros pushrods and may not be quick-change. If the lifter is at the bottom for the travel and you wind them all the way in but they still won't come out, you'll have to pull them out the top like one piece.
don't look like quick change to me, but we'll know when they're wound back and can see the bottom
drill out the tops of the PR Tubes to 5/8" , look for witness marks on the PRs and perhaps install Rocker Lockers just because
(https://i.imgur.com/fkrWXpw.png)
I didn't loosen the pushrods, just slowly loosened the rocker bolts and pulled the lower off that way.
A dirty head
And a dirty piston.
I didn't pull the cylinder off yet, it was 10pm and I still have to cook dinner. So, tomorrow, I will pull the cylinder and piston out.
Quoteit was 10pm and I still have to cook dinner
why ? a few drinks and it'll be breakfast time :SM:
Quote from: FSG on January 29, 2020, 08:27:02 PM
Quoteit was 10pm and I still have to cook dinner
why ? a few drinks and it'll be breakfast time :SM:
ha, because my stomach and back are pretty hard things to ignore once they go to screaming.
Do yourself a favor and do not use the james umbrellas for the breathers. In my experience they are too stiff and you will have a nose bleed. OEM or Cometic.
Check the cam journals and cam bearing while it's apart Hopefully who ever put the adjustables in changed out the inner cam bearing.
That oil usage looks worthy of a re-ring/overbore. How many miles on the engine?
Quote from: rageglide on January 29, 2020, 09:05:37 PM
Do yourself a favor and do not use the james umbrellas for the breathers. In my experience they are too stiff and you will have a nose bleed. OEM or Cometic.
Check the cam journals and cam bearing while it's apart Hopefully who ever put the adjustables in changed out the inner cam bearing.
That oil usage looks worthy of a re-ring/overbore. How many miles on the engine?
about 55k
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 29, 2020, 06:34:28 PM
The nose cone is still riveted, so either it's factory or they replaced the rivets instead of screws.
But, one step at a time.
Do I still need the piston at TDC to loosen the pushrods and remove the lower rocker assy?
You read the manual yet ?
Quote from: hbkeith on January 30, 2020, 12:22:57 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 29, 2020, 06:34:28 PM
The nose cone is still riveted, so either it's factory or they replaced the rivets instead of screws.
But, one step at a time.
Do I still need the piston at TDC to loosen the pushrods and remove the lower rocker assy?
You read the manual yet ?
Many times.
Quote from: FSG on January 29, 2020, 07:02:37 PM
don't look like quick change to me, but we'll know when they're wound back and can see the bottom
drill out the tops of the PR Tubes to 5/8" , look for witness marks on the PRs and perhaps install Rocker Lockers just because
(https://i.imgur.com/fkrWXpw.png)
What's the purpose of drilling out the tubes? just for additional clearance? I'll look at the PR tonight to see if there's any marks.
Rockout Lockers have been ordered.
Thanks
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 28, 2020, 08:18:14 PM
Yep, I have an electronic and hard SM and bookmarked the online parts manual that has the exploded views and part numbers.
I've replaced the rocker box gaskets before with the help of Pete. But this is my first time tackling it alone and then going further.
I have boxes labeled for front and rear and will bag and tag the parts to match fr/rr, in/ex. And I will be taking pictures as well, for my use and to share here so that I know what I'm looking at. Should be able to get both rocker boxes off tomorrow, might get the heads and jugs off too.
I did my base gaskets 2 years ago, took my jugs and heads to Rodney's, @ 110,000 miles, I needed some valves, new guides and seats, the jugs were good, just a freshen up, I got new pistons and rings, like others have said it depends on how deep you want to get, I did go too far I guess with new hardware (studs and head bolts) but that was my choice.
the job was not so bad, just took my time, step by step, the most important was the touque pattern and values, I think you'll be Ok if you just want to do the base gaskets, I forget how many miles you had on that bike :unsure:
Quote from: Pete_Vit on January 30, 2020, 08:49:43 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 28, 2020, 08:18:14 PM
Yep, I have an electronic and hard SM and bookmarked the online parts manual that has the exploded views and part numbers.
I've replaced the rocker box gaskets before with the help of Pete. But this is my first time tackling it alone and then going further.
I have boxes labeled for front and rear and will bag and tag the parts to match fr/rr, in/ex. And I will be taking pictures as well, for my use and to share here so that I know what I'm looking at. Should be able to get both rocker boxes off tomorrow, might get the heads and jugs off too.
I did my base gaskets 2 years ago, took my jugs and heads to Rodney's, @ 110,000 miles, I needed some valves, new guides and seats, the jugs were good, just a freshen up, I got new pistons and rings, like others have said it depends on how deep you want to get, I did go too far I guess with new hardware (studs and head bolts) but that was my choice.
the job was not so bad, just took my time, step by step, the most important was the touque pattern and values, I think you'll be Ok if you just want to do the base gaskets, I forget how many miles you had on that bike :unsure:
Hey Pete, Do you know if they still do machine work at Rodney's?
Anyone have luck with these?
https://www.haydensm6.com/tof_single.htm
A friend of mine said they worked, that was a few years ago, though.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 30, 2020, 08:55:31 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on January 30, 2020, 08:49:43 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 28, 2020, 08:18:14 PM
Yep, I have an electronic and hard SM and bookmarked the online parts manual that has the exploded views and part numbers.
I've replaced the rocker box gaskets before with the help of Pete. But this is my first time tackling it alone and then going further.
I have boxes labeled for front and rear and will bag and tag the parts to match fr/rr, in/ex. And I will be taking pictures as well, for my use and to share here so that I know what I'm looking at. Should be able to get both rocker boxes off tomorrow, might get the heads and jugs off too.
I did my base gaskets 2 years ago, took my jugs and heads to Rodney's, @ 110,000 miles, I needed some valves, new guides and seats, the jugs were good, just a freshen up, I got new pistons and rings, like others have said it depends on how deep you want to get, I did go too far I guess with new hardware (studs and head bolts) but that was my choice.
the job was not so bad, just took my time, step by step, the most important was the touque pattern and values, I think you'll be Ok if you just want to do the base gaskets, I forget how many miles you had on that bike :unsure:
Hey Pete, Do you know if they still do machine work at Rodney's?
yes they do the only thing is Eddie is 'contracting' there now, so he works when he's needed, but I've never had any issues with any of there work
When I did the top end on my Evo I used a "base gasket bypass pig tail kit "
Mid USA part #60146.
You use the supplied tap to thread the oil return holes in the cylinder then install the pigtail with about one inch left protruding to be inserted into the crankcase. Eliminates the chance of an oil leak in this area for good.
Quote from: twincamzz on January 30, 2020, 12:32:11 PM
When I did the top end on my Evo I used a "base gasket bypass pig tail kit "
Mid USA part #60146.
You use the supplied tap to thread the oil return holes in the cylinder then install the pigtail with about one inch left protruding to be inserted into the crankcase. Eliminates the chance of an oil leak in this area for good.
IMO, the PIG TAIL kits, are the best parts that have ever been developed for the factory cylinder to case. Just be careful installing them, as you're working with an angle. You STILL need to use base gaskets.
John
Quote from: jsachs1 on January 30, 2020, 02:27:24 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on January 30, 2020, 12:32:11 PM
When I did the top end on my Evo I used a "base gasket bypass pig tail kit "
Mid USA part #60146.
You use the supplied tap to thread the oil return holes in the cylinder then install the pigtail with about one inch left protruding to be inserted into the crankcase. Eliminates the chance of an oil leak in this area for good.
IMO, the PIG TAIL kits, are the best parts that have ever been developed for the factory cylinder to case. Just be careful installing them, as you're working with an angle. You STILL need to use base gaskets.
John
Yes, base gaskets are definitely necessary. Was not trying to imply they were not needed.
Thanks for chiming in on these Mr. Sachs...good to know a man with your experience thinks highly of them too !
Quote from: twincamzz on January 30, 2020, 03:38:14 PM
Quote from: jsachs1 on January 30, 2020, 02:27:24 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on January 30, 2020, 12:32:11 PM
When I did the top end on my Evo I used a "base gasket bypass pig tail kit "
Mid USA part #60146.
You use the supplied tap to thread the oil return holes in the cylinder then install the pigtail with about one inch left protruding to be inserted into the crankcase. Eliminates the chance of an oil leak in this area for good.
IMO, the PIG TAIL kits, are the best parts that have ever been developed for the factory cylinder to case. Just be careful installing them, as you're working with an angle. You STILL need to use base gaskets.
John
Yes, base gaskets are definitely necessary. Was not trying to imply they were not needed.
Thanks for chiming in on these Mr. Sachs...good to know a man with your experience thinks highly of them too !
:up: nice to see there are some other options
Not saying nothing bad about pig tails never used them just machine the bottom of the cylinders use a good gasket never had one leak after that.
Pulled the rear off last night.
I left the cylinders on for now to keep anything out of the case. Once I find a good machine shop, I'll pull them and take them there.
Also going to clean up the pistons while waiting for the machinist. Still undecided about the pigtails, but the Rockout Lockers have been ordered.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 31, 2020, 11:41:16 AM
Pulled the rear off last night.
I left the cylinders on for now to keep anything out of the case. Once I find a good machine shop, I'll pull them and take them there.
Also going to clean up the pistons while waiting for the machinist. Still undecided about the pigtails, but the Rockout Lockers have been ordered.
:up: looks familiar
QuoteWhat's the purpose of drilling out the tubes? just for additional clearance?
:up: the tops of the tubes are deformed, drilling them out helps, I just drill down 1-1/2" because of the drill bit I have, others drill all the way through
even the S&S tubes are deformed AND every bit of clearance recovered helps
Quote from: FSG on January 31, 2020, 12:32:02 PM
QuoteWhat's the purpose of drilling out the tubes? just for additional clearance?
:up: the tops of the tubes are deformed, drilling them out helps, I just drill down 1-1/2" because of the drill bit I have, others drill all the way through
even the S&S tubes are deformed AND every bit of clearance recovered helps
Is this something I can do with a hand drill? I don't have a drill press.
Perhaps a dremel and grinder bit would do the trick?
I wrap a piece of tape around them to mark, then use a dremel with cut off wheel. A cakewalk.
-JW
QuoteIs this something I can do with a hand drill? I don't have a drill press.
Perhaps a dremel and grinder bit would do the trick?
too easy to do damage with a hand drill ....... use a dremel
some reading =>
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,69838.0
Six, if you know someone with a lathe, even a small one, ask them to chuck up the tubes in a 3 jaw and pass a 5/8 drill bit about a couple of inches deep into them. It's a simple set up and delivery. All you need is the equipment. A machine shop may charge you but I can't see it being much due to the quick simplicity of the job.
QuoteA machine shop may charge you but I can't see it being much due to the quick simplicity of the job.
:up: I did all my own and some for others for $0 ......... a brotherhood freebie
Quote from: FSG on January 31, 2020, 07:13:15 PM
QuoteA machine shop may charge you but I can't see it being much due to the quick simplicity of the job.
:up: I did all my own and some for others for $0 ......... a brotherhood freebie
:beer: nice.I like to help a brother to.
sadly, I don't know anyone where I live now. But back home, 120miles west of here, I know a guy with a mill that might do it. So if'n I can't get it done before then, I'll take the tubes there.
I am pretty decent with a dremel though, I could use a stone and open them up some.
:nix: You can see the cut is centered and even when you use the drill bit.
Alright folks, so while I wait on getting the cylinder bases machined, I have a future question.
When should I change the oil? Right now it's still got the old oil in it from last year.
Should I change oil/filter now? or wait until it's assembled? (before the first start)
Or wait until I get it started and let it get hot, then change?
Just planning ahead for now. I'm heading to Canada tomorrow, so no working on it for at least another week.
Thanks
I'd use the old oil as break-in oil unless it is bad. (or synthetic)
You're only going to run it for a few miles and not beat on it.
Quote from: Burnout on February 13, 2020, 10:35:26 AM
I'd use the old oil as break-in oil unless it is bad. (or synthetic)
You're only going to run it for a few miles and not beat on it.
Yeah, I was trying to decide if I wanted to change it, then break-in, then change it again.
The oil was changed in....May, I think. It has probably 3k on it?
Id start with fresh oil, and filter.
Quote from: rigidthumper on February 13, 2020, 10:53:34 AM
Id start with fresh oil, and filter.
:agree: that's what I did with both motors, I probably didn't need to with the Big Twin since it was just a teardown and rebuild, but the Sporty, since the motor went belly up :up: I did
OK, I'll go ahead and change it before I fire it back up. In the end...oil is cheap.
If you are that concerned, you should also clean out the oil tank.
You'll "Potty mouth" yourself when you see how much junk is laying in the bottom!
Alright folks, some 12hr workdays and a holiday weekend in a Canadian car plant have delayed progress a bit. But I've managed to get the pistons cleaned up.
Question time...How clean is clean enough?
Should I try to clean off the piston skirts and ring grooves? There's some discoloring around the pin holes seen below.
Thanks
What does the bottom of the piston look like?
Quote from: rigidthumper on February 19, 2020, 07:41:31 PM
What does the bottom of the piston look like?
hope this helps
It's been warm, but no significant issues I can see from here. What's the plan? Measure/clean everything and re-ring?
Quote from: rigidthumper on February 20, 2020, 06:02:35 AM
It's been warm, but no significant issues I can see from here. What's the plan? Measure/clean everything and re-ring?
Pretty much. Just making sure no one sees anything out of the ordinary. Thanks
Bore gauge and calipers will tell you what's next.
Alright, folks I'm back from Canada and it's time to resurrect the thread and the refresh project.
I finally got to visit the machinist and he mentioned the scoring in the cylinder (something I had noticed but hadn't really looked at closely) The gouges feel pretty rough to my novice fingertips.
Attached are the Front cylinder marks...Rear is pretty much the same. If it matters, the grooves are on the front and rear surfaces of the bore(which I would think is expected?)
Additional info......
You see those little O-rings on the oil passage nipples? There's one missing on the rear cylinder. It may have stuck to the head then fell off, I haven't looked around the shop floor. I just noticed it was gone yesterday.
Anyway.... The machinist suggested boring +0.010" and wiseco pistons.
Before I say yes, I figured I'd run it by yall. If I'm going to rebore, should I go a little more than +10 and give it a comp. bump as well. I do plan on a new cam at some point, probably next winter.
Again, I'll say it. My goal isn't big power, just a healthy reliable engine.
Thanks for the help
Nothing wrong with 0.010" over to clean up the bore. But if you want to just make a healthy reliable, long life motor, use the OEM HD cast pistons as they "should" be fit tighter than the Wisco forged pistons. My 1-1/2 cents.
Then again, re bore to 95 or 98, 7 - 10 more cubes for the same cost. Maybe find a low cost cam on HTT? Let me see .... hmmmm. :teeth:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 01:09:43 PM
Nothing wrong with 0.010" over to clean up the bore. But if you want to just make a healthy reliable, long life motor, use the OEM HD cast pistons as they "should" be fit tighter than the Wisco forged pistons. My 1-1/2 cents.
Even after the +10?
Quote from: kd on March 02, 2020, 01:12:15 PM
Then again, re bore to 95 or 98, 7 - 10 more cubes for the same cost. Maybe find a low cost cam on HTT? Let me see .... hmmmm. :teeth:
Haha, I was kinda thinking more along rebore and bump comp to 10ish...An EV27 or W6 isn't that expensive.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 02, 2020, 01:16:03 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 01:09:43 PM
Nothing wrong with 0.010" over to clean up the bore. But if you want to just make a healthy reliable, long life motor, use the OEM HD cast pistons as they "should" be fit tighter than the Wisco forged pistons. My 1-1/2 cents.
Even after the +10?
Cast pistons (top of my head) would be about 0.0015"-0.0025" fit. Wisco forged about 0.0025" fit. Regardless of overbore size.
Cast pistons
expend expand less than forged, so need less clearance.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 01:33:28 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 02, 2020, 01:16:03 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 01:09:43 PM
Nothing wrong with 0.010" over to clean up the bore. But if you want to just make a healthy reliable, long life motor, use the OEM HD cast pistons as they "should" be fit tighter than the Wisco forged pistons. My 1-1/2 cents.
Even after the +10?
Cast pistons (top of my head) would be about 0.0015"-0.0025" fit. Wisco forged about 0.0025" fit. Regardless of overbore size.
Cast pistons expend expand less than forged, so need less clearance.
so at only +10, you think new pistons aren't needed?
ALSO what're the options to up the comp. to say, 9.5-10:1? Domed pistons or head machining? Just trying to get things lined out. Thanks
No he's is saying cast in general expand less under heat than forged.
I'd use HD cast pistons, they are quieter, and cheaper. Flat tops with cometic .030" head gaskets, and an EV27, deck the heads to 72 CCs, (9.6:1 cr- pump gas friendly wherever you may roam) adjustable pushrods, new lifters and inner cam bearing, and Bobs your uncle.
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 02, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
No he's is saying cast in general expand less under heat than forged.
I'd use HD cast pistons, they are quieter, and cheaper. Flat tops with cometic .030" head gaskets, and an EV27, deck the heads to 72 CCs, (9.6:1 cr- pump gas friendly wherever you may roam) adjustable pushrods, new lifters and inner cam bearing, and Bobs your uncle.
ahh, thanks
Can yall give any recommendations on where to get the cast flat-top pistons for 10 over? I assume HD doesn't stock these?
Thanks
anytime ive ever had a cylinder bored , I give them the piston first
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 02, 2020, 02:44:01 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 02, 2020, 02:15:42 PM
No he's is saying cast in general expand less under heat than forged.
I'd use HD cast pistons, they are quieter, and cheaper. Flat tops with cometic .030" head gaskets, and an EV27, deck the heads to 72 CCs, (9.6:1 cr- pump gas friendly wherever you may roam) adjustable pushrods, new lifters and inner cam bearing, and Bobs your uncle.
ahh, thanks
send them heads to Larry and let him cut them, bigger valves and port , it will be what I did to my 97 , you would be VERY happy
What Mr. rigidthumper said. :SM:
21942-83 is the 0.010" oversize piston, rings, and piston pin kit, you need two. About $100 a set. I doubt anyone would have them in stock, but you never know. A friendly HD dealer will do a national search and let you know who if anyone has them on the shelf. I wouldn't think it would take them long to get them into the store from HD.
https://shop.newcastlehd.com/part/21942-83
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:12:03 PM
What Mr. rigidthumper said. :SM:
21942-83 is the 0.010" oversize piston, rings, and piston pin kit, you need two. About $100 a set. I doubt anyone would have them in stock, but you never know. A friendly HD dealer will do a national search and let you know who if anyone has them on the shelf. I wouldn't think it would take them long to get them into the store from HD.
https://shop.newcastlehd.com/part/21942-83
Thanks for confirmation, I had actually just found them on the Ronnie's partfinder. Should I hold off on the cylinder machining until I can get the pistons?
In theory, if they bore +0.010" all is good. Never hurts to have the piston first. Especially if they can't get 0.010" for some reason, and you have to get 0.020". Then you have to bore twice.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
In theory, if they bore +0.010" all is good. Never hurts to have the piston first. Especially if they can't get 0.010" for some reason, and you have to get 0.020". Then you have to bore twice.
10-4
Thanks for the help.
Double check your service manual, this is from my 1997 FXST manual. Pistons are a tighter fit than I recalled from my memory.
Nominal over bore target is 3.511". Slowwww easy break in after some heat cycles.
[attach=0]
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:57:09 PM
Double check your service manual, this is from my 1997 FXST manual. Pistons are a tighter fit than I recalled from my memory.
Nominal over bore target is 3.511". Slowwww easy break in after some heat cycles.
[attach=0,msg1335607]
Thanks, I'll check my SM.
Last question...for tonight...
Are there different ring sizes for being overbored? I've got a set of NIB standard Hastings rings that I got a few months ago.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:57:09 PM
Double check your service manual, this is from my 1997 FXST manual. Pistons are a tighter fit than I recalled from my memory.
Nominal over bore target is 3.511". Slowwww easy break in after some heat cycles.
[attach=0,msg1335607]
Mostly the same....except that 2nd comp ring lists a different max clear (in inches) mm is the same
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 02, 2020, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:57:09 PM
Double check your service manual, this is from my 1997 FXST manual. Pistons are a tighter fit than I recalled from my memory.
Nominal over bore target is 3.511". Slowwww easy break in after some heat cycles.
[attach=0,msg1335607]
Thanks, I'll check my SM.
Last question...for tonight...
Are there different ring sizes for being overbored? I've got a set of NIB standard Hastings rings that I got a few months ago.
Use the rings that come with the pistons. They'll be sized right for the overbore.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 07:09:55 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 02, 2020, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:57:09 PM
Double check your service manual, this is from my 1997 FXST manual. Pistons are a tighter fit than I recalled from my memory.
Nominal over bore target is 3.511". Slowwww easy break in after some heat cycles.
[attach=0,msg1335607]
Thanks, I'll check my SM.
Last question...for tonight...
Are there different ring sizes for being overbored? I've got a set of NIB standard Hastings rings that I got a few months ago.
Use the rings that come with the pistons. They'll be sized right for the overbore.
:up: That was my thoughts as well. Just checking.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
In theory, if they bore +0.010" all is good. Never hurts to have the piston first. Especially if they can't get 0.010" for some reason, and you have to get 0.020". Then you have to bore twice.
Nobody gonna do my Rebore and Hone that don't already got the pistons in Hand!!!!!
Quote from: Racepres on March 03, 2020, 07:04:31 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
In theory, if they bore +0.010" all is good. Never hurts to have the piston first. Especially if they can't get 0.010" for some reason, and you have to get 0.020". Then you have to bore twice.
Nobody gonna do my Rebore and Hone that don't already got the pistons in Hand!!!!!
:agree:
MIKE
Quote from: Racepres on March 03, 2020, 07:04:31 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
In theory, if they bore +0.010" all is good. Never hurts to have the piston first. Especially if they can't get 0.010" for some reason, and you have to get 0.020". Then you have to bore twice.
Nobody gonna do my Rebore and Hone that don't already got the pistons in Hand!!!!!
:up: that's what I always experienced, the place I take my cyls to does the bore with the pistons already in hand.
Alright, machinist is going to order the pistons +0.010 or 20 depending on what's available. Then he'll bore the cylinders.
Also going to work on the heads to get me up to 9.5-10:1 comp and clean them up some and the valves. Shouldn't hurt anything with the stock cam, but should help with whatever cam I decide on later. (narrowed it down to EV23, 27, or W6)
Meanwhile I'll install those Rockout lockers and new cyl. studs and check to see what my carbs jetted for (though in reading, I think the enrichener was not set right)
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 03, 2020, 10:38:56 AM
Alright, machinist is going to order the pistons +0.010 or 20 depending on what's available. Then he'll bore the cylinders.
Also going to work on the heads to get me up to 9.5-10:1 comp and clean them up some and the valves. Shouldn't hurt anything with the stock cam, but should help with whatever cam I decide on later. (narrowed it down to EV23, 27, or W6)
Meanwhile I'll install those Rockout lockers and new cyl. studs and check to see what my carbs jetted for (though in reading, I think the enrichener was not set right)
:up:
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 03, 2020, 10:38:56 AM
Alright, machinist is going to order the pistons +0.010 or 20 depending on what's available. Then he'll bore the cylinders.
Also going to work on the heads to get me up to 9.5-10:1 comp and clean them up some and the valves. Shouldn't hurt anything with the stock cam, but should help with whatever cam I decide on later. (narrowed it down to EV23, 27, or W6)
Meanwhile I'll install those Rockout lockers and new cyl. studs and check to see what my carbs jetted for (though in reading, I think the enrichener was not set right)
Just off memory, I think my knob doesn't have any slack as is in the Mik instructions. So I'll be adjusting that. Hopefully that brings my mpg up a little. Still gonna check the jetting.
Uh, 10:1 with stock cam? Maybe, if you live in Denver. I think I'd be looking for one with a bit more duration though.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on March 04, 2020, 03:31:19 PM
Uh, 10:1 with stock cam? Maybe, if you live in Denver. I think I'd be looking for one with a bit more duration though.
-JW
new cam is coming soon...Thinking 27 or W6 :nix:
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 04, 2020, 04:34:06 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 04, 2020, 03:31:19 PM
Uh, 10:1 with stock cam? Maybe, if you live in Denver. I think I'd be looking for one with a bit more duration though.
-JW
new cam is coming soon...Thinking 27 or W6 :nix:
Your bike is a later model, so geared pretty high. I would do an EV27 or an EV13 if you want more lower end. Both a big improvement over stock. FYI, I'd not go 10:1, you need to mill a lot off the heads or use different pistons. See Rigidthumper's recipe above.
IIRC .060 is what Harley takes off the SE evo heads to get 10:1. I have them on both my evo's with SE-3 cams and the CC is fine.
So, a couple questions... What problems will come from the 10:1 and stock cam (detonation?)
Should we split the difference with somewhere around 9.5:1 less risk with stock cam but still an improvement when the new cam goes in?
Thanks
You know, for as much time and effort you are putting in to this, not to mention the bucks, a new cam is not a lot of money, and then you can just be done with trying to figure out how to build for now and later at the same time. Are you going to miss the extra few hundred dollars in three months, or sit and wonder why you didn't just do it in the first place?
You seem to be getting caught up in the incremental build process that happens too often, "I want to just get it freshened up, but I want to set it up for future improvements, but not hurt the performance I have now, but build it for later, but keep it the same for now......."
The part that kills is trying to set it up for two different goals with one action. It's tough to get that right. You have the opportunity right now to do it right.
Remember, I'm here to help spend your money! I'm just trying to keep you from going down two different roads at the same time but trying to make them work together, and drop be yourself nuts. Set your end goal, and go to that point.
Remember, stock sucks!
haha, you're not wrong.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 05, 2020, 07:52:03 AM
You know, for as much time and effort you are putting in to this, not to mention the bucks, a new cam is not a lot of money, and then you can just be done with trying to figure out how to build for now and later at the same time. Are you going to miss the extra few hundred dollars in three months, or sit and wonder why you didn't just do it in the first place?
You seem to be getting caught up in the incremental build process that happens too often, "I want to just get it freshened up, but I want to set it up for future improvements, but not hurt the performance I have now, but build it for later, but keep it the same for now......."
The part that kills is trying to set it up for two different goals with one action. It's tough to get that right. You have the opportunity right now to do it right.
Remember, I'm here to help spend your money! I'm just trying to keep you from going down two different roads at the same time but trying to make them work together, and drop be yourself nuts. Set your end goal, and go to that point.
Remember, stock sucks!
ya know......... The machine work is expected to be done next week. I could probably go ahead and do the cam while I wait... I think I'll pull the timing cover off and confirm the stock cam tonight. If stock, I'll go ahead with the cam change. Probably a bit easier with the top off anyway.
Well, so the heads are already off right.......... :fish: :party: :chop: :koolaid1:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 05, 2020, 08:14:00 AM
Well, so the heads are already off right.......... :fish: :party: :chop: :koolaid1:
:sheep: heads and jugs are at the machine shop. Waiting on pistons to show up next week.
Port work?
I've been more of a Crane Cams fan than Andrews, but it's gotten pretty hard to find them now. When I did a top end, basically the same as what you're doing, with 9.5:1 c/r, I initially installed a Crane FB-310, very similar profile to an EV-27. After a month or so, I pulled the 310 and installed a FB-300, which is similar to a EV-13. Am much happier with it, very strong in the 1500-4500 range. I don't rev the motor that high, and have the whole set up tuned for cruise and highway. The FB-300 is easy on the valve train, quiet, and I'm getting 50+ mpg at 75mpm/3100rpm.
It all depends on what you want for the final product. Since you have a Road King, am assuming not building a drag bike. Or maybe you are. If so, don't use a EV-13.
:SM:
This is just a very basic rule of thumb:
High RPM Power = High Duration Cam + High Compression (i.e. race motor)
Low RPM Power = Low Duration Cam + Low Compression (i.e. stock motor)
And everything in between. RPM range, Duration, and C/R all kind of scale together.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on March 05, 2020, 01:48:18 PM
I've been more of a Crane Cams fan than Andrews, but it's gotten pretty hard to find them now. When I did a top end, basically the same as what you're doing, with 9.5:1 c/r, I initially installed a Crane FB-310, very similar profile to an EV-27. After a month or so, I pulled the 310 and installed a FB-300, which is similar to a EV-13. Am much happier with it, very strong in the 1500-4500 range. I don't rev the motor that high, and have the whole set up tuned for cruise and highway. The FB-300 is easy on the valve train, quiet, and I'm getting 50+ mpg at 75mpm/3100rpm.
It all depends on what you want for the final product. Since you have a Road King, am assuming not building a drag bike. Or maybe you are. If so, don't use a EV-13.
:SM:
This is just a very basic rule of thumb:
High RPM Power = High Duration Cam + High Compression (i.e. race motor)
Low RPM Power = Low Duration Cam + Low Compression (i.e. stock motor)
And everything in between. RPM range, Duration, and C/R all kind of scale together.
-JW
It is a RK, but it's also likely to never have a passenger. So, not likely to be pushing much more than the bike, 180# of me and 30# of gear. I am also not afraid of downshifting to get into the power, I actually rather enjoy it. Definitely not a drag bike, but I also don't waste time getting up to that 55-70mph speed limit. And of course my home is in the Ozarks with lots of turns and hills that can require a lot of shifting anyway. So I figure the 27 would be a good, mild mannered (better than stock) choice. I seriously doubt I'll be disappointed, and if so...I'll just change it again, :kick:
I'm hoping to ID the current cam tonight or this weekend. The bike already had adjustable pushrods, a carlini torque arm, and there was a bracket for an external breather filter (which this engine doesn't have). So someone has either worked on the engine before (possibly had a larger crate in it and put stock back before selling) or they just thought it looked nice, :nix: Either way, it's past due to get a look at the innards.
I'll keep you fellers posted on what I find and how I proceed. I'll almost certainly be doing the cam and bearing change over the next few weeks. Since I've already got torn down.
I did a set of Evo heads 2 weeks ago for a shop in Jacksonville. Heads came in injured because of a broken exhaust guide, and customer wanted port work. Stock size valves, new guides, viton seals, new stock springs, and fluffed ports.They are using an EV27 cam, and .010" over 1340 flat pistons. I sent the heads out with 78 cc chambers. ( I had to take . 058" off to reach 78cc chambers).
John
My memory must be bad- I thought EVO chambers were 76CC stock?
Quote from: Racepres on March 03, 2020, 07:04:31 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 02, 2020, 04:24:47 PM
In theory, if they bore +0.010" all is good. Never hurts to have the piston first. Especially if they can't get 0.010" for some reason, and you have to get 0.020". Then you have to bore twice.
Nobody gonna do my Rebore and Hone that don't already got the pistons in Hand!!!!!
Yup-milk and cookies....also, any non off the shelf head design must have pistons to match.
Everything works as one unit-Not individual pieces!
Alright folks....what is this brown stuff? And is this module supposed to be glued in place with it?
Yep, gets hot in those Evo cones. It could run forever, but I would replace it.
While yer in there...... :SM:
https://www.zippersperformance.com/dyna-2000i-ignition/
Quote from: Hossamania on March 05, 2020, 07:52:03 AM
You know, for as much time and effort you are putting in to this, not to mention the bucks, a new cam is not a lot of money, and then you can just be done with trying to figure out how to build for now and later at the same time. Are you going to miss the extra few hundred dollars in three months, or sit and wonder why you didn't just do it in the first place?
You seem to be getting caught up in the incremental build process that happens too often, "I want to just get it freshened up, but I want to set it up for future improvements, but not hurt the performance I have now, but build it for later, but keep it the same for now......."
The part that kills is trying to set it up for two different goals with one action. It's tough to get that right. You have the opportunity right now to do it right.
Remember, I'm here to help spend your money! I'm just trying to keep you from going down two different roads at the same time but trying to make them work together, and drop be yourself nuts. Set your end goal, and go to that point.
Remember, stock sucks!
:up: :up: , pay now or pay more later
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 05, 2020, 05:10:15 PM
Alright folks....what is this brown stuff? And is this module supposed to be glued in place with it?
Cam position sensor potting compound has melted, which means it's at/near it's lifespan.
The stand alone unit Mr Ohio suggests eliminates the stock CMP, and ignition module, and simplifies the wiring.
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 05, 2020, 02:47:50 PM
My memory must be bad- I thought EVO chambers were 76CC stock?
Average Evo 1340 stock D-shaped chamber heads are 83 - 84 cc. After valve and chamber work they gained several cc. Usually a clip of .0065" will remove 1 cc. on my mill. :wink: These were 1995 castings.
John
[attach=0]
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 07:18:19 AM
[attach=0,msg1336052]
Next you're gonna tell me to change out that breather gear as well :slap:
welp, won't be doing any wrenching this weekend. My mom wants me to come visit.
Anyway, here's the outer cam seal. I know the inner bearing needs changed for the Torrington, but is this outer one OK to reuse?
No way. Always new seals. They get hot and brittle too.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 07:24:09 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 07:18:19 AM
Next you're gonna tell me to change out that breather gear as well :slap:
While yer in there........... :pop:
[attach=0]
https://www.sscycle.com/products/oil-pump-and-gears-kit-for-1992-99-hd-big-twins/
Aw heck, while you're in there....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultima-El-Bruto-Complete-Evolution-127-Black-Motor-Engine-Harley-Evo-Big-Twin/141902252426?epid=1623732185&hash=item210a08898a:g:FLkAAOSws3dceEAc
:baby:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on March 06, 2020, 09:36:57 AM
Aw heck, while you're in there....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultima-El-Bruto-Complete-Evolution-127-Black-Motor-Engine-Harley-Evo-Big-Twin/141902252426?epid=1623732185&hash=item210a08898a:g:FLkAAOSws3dceEAc
:baby:
-JW
See.....now that makes a lot of sense.
:pop:
[attach=0]
https://www.sscycle.com/products/v124-black-edition-engine-for-1984-99-carbureted-chassis/
This will be the next thread Sixshooter14 starts. :kick:
[attach=0,msg1336089]
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 10:31:59 AM
This will be the next thread Sixshooter14 starts. :kick:
[attach=0,msg1336089]
Haha, maybe next winter.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 10:38:19 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 10:31:59 AM
This will be the next thread Sixshooter14 starts. :kick:
[attach=0,msg1336089]
Haha, maybe next winter.
:pop:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 08:23:30 AM
No way. Always new seals. They get hot and brittle too.
Mmmk,
cam (and shim)
steel breather gear (and shim)
inner bearing
outer bushing and seal
ignition module
how about lifters? bike has 53k miles
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 08:23:30 AM
No way. Always new seals. They get hot and brittle too.
Mmmk,
cam (and shim)
steel breather gear (and shim)
inner bearing
outer bushing and seal
ignition module
how about lifters? bike has 53k miles
I wouldn't replace the outer bushing unless you know it to be worn. A new bushing "should" be sized from the right side case pinion bearing, or a fixture made for this.
https://www.zippersperformance.com/758-845/
Lifters, I would replace them at 53k since your there.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 12:19:41 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 08:23:30 AM
No way. Always new seals. They get hot and brittle too.
Mmmk,
cam (and shim)
steel breather gear (and shim)
inner bearing
outer bushing and seal
ignition module
how about lifters? bike has 53k miles
I wouldn't replace the outer bushing unless you know it to be worn. A new bushing "should" be sized from the right side case pinion bearing, or a fixture made for this.
https://www.zippersperformance.com/758-845/
Lifters, I would replace them at 53k since your there.
:up:
I see wfolarry sells lifters. Think I would need the slow leakdown or standard? I assume it wouldn't hurt to have the limiters in there?
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 12:19:41 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 08:23:30 AM
No way. Always new seals. They get hot and brittle too.
Mmmk,
cam (and shim)
steel breather gear (and shim)
inner bearing
outer bushing and seal
ignition module
how about lifters? bike has 53k miles
I wouldn't replace the outer bushing unless you know it to be worn. A new bushing "should" be sized from the right side case pinion bearing, or a fixture made for this.
https://www.zippersperformance.com/758-845/
Lifters, I would replace them at 53k since your there.
:up:
I see wfolarry sells lifters. Think I would need the slow leakdown or standard? I assume it wouldn't hurt to have the limiters in there?
Agree about the limiters, as long as adjustable push rods are used. An advantage to them when you do bump the compression. If a lifter bleeds down after the bike is parked, especially when hot, it can be more difficult to spin the motor over due to the intake valve now closing sooner, exhaust not opening soon enough (until the lifters pumps up). With limiters that can't happen. You adjust the limiters to only about two wrench flats off the bottom on a cold lifter. It can't then bleed down very much. You get some increase in lifter to limiter gap when the motor parts expend from heat. But not all that much to bother the limiters.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 12:19:41 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 08:23:30 AM
No way. Always new seals. They get hot and brittle too.
Mmmk,
cam (and shim)
steel breather gear (and shim)
inner bearing
outer bushing and seal
ignition module
how about lifters? bike has 53k miles
I wouldn't replace the outer bushing unless you know it to be worn. A new bushing "should" be sized from the right side case pinion bearing, or a fixture made for this.
https://www.zippersperformance.com/758-845/
Lifters, I would replace them at 53k since your there.
:up:
I see wfolarry sells lifters. Think I would need the slow leakdown or standard? I assume it wouldn't hurt to have the limiters in there?
Agree about the limiters, as long as adjustable push rods are used. An advantage to them when you do bump the compression. If a lifter bleeds down after the bike is parked, especially when hot, it can be more difficult to spin the motor over due to the intake valve now closing sooner, exhaust not opening soon enough (until the lifters pumps up). With limiters that can't happen. You adjust the limiters to only about two wrench flats off the bottom on a cold lifter. It can't then bleed down very much. You get some increase in lifter to limiter gap when the motor parts expend from heat. But not all that much to bother the limiters.
So with the limiters, what's the purpose of the slow leak down versions of the lifters?
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 12:58:27 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 12:29:03 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 12:19:41 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 06, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 06, 2020, 08:23:30 AM
No way. Always new seals. They get hot and brittle too.
Mmmk,
cam (and shim)
steel breather gear (and shim)
inner bearing
outer bushing and seal
ignition module
how about lifters? bike has 53k miles
I wouldn't replace the outer bushing unless you know it to be worn. A new bushing "should" be sized from the right side case pinion bearing, or a fixture made for this.
https://www.zippersperformance.com/758-845/
Lifters, I would replace them at 53k since your there.
:up:
I see wfolarry sells lifters. Think I would need the slow leakdown or standard? I assume it wouldn't hurt to have the limiters in there?
Agree about the limiters, as long as adjustable push rods are used. An advantage to them when you do bump the compression. If a lifter bleeds down after the bike is parked, especially when hot, it can be more difficult to spin the motor over due to the intake valve now closing sooner, exhaust not opening soon enough (until the lifters pumps up). With limiters that can't happen. You adjust the limiters to only about two wrench flats off the bottom on a cold lifter. It can't then bleed down very much. You get some increase in lifter to limiter gap when the motor parts expend from heat. But not all that much to bother the limiters.
So with the limiters, what's the purpose of the slow leak down versions of the lifters?
Best of both worlds.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 05, 2020, 05:19:22 PM
Yep, gets hot in those Evo cones. It could run forever, but I would replace it.
While yer in there...... :SM:
https://www.zippersperformance.com/dyna-2000i-ignition/
Is there any advantage for the dial types like the Hi-4N or Twin Tec rather than the switches on the 2000i? Just curious
I know the DTT is programmable, so if you like/need to tinker with timing in just one spot, you can. In some others, you have to advance/retard the entire curve.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 10, 2020, 11:14:32 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 05, 2020, 05:19:22 PM
Yep, gets hot in those Evo cones. It could run forever, but I would replace it.
While yer in there...... :SM:
https://www.zippersperformance.com/dyna-2000i-ignition/
Is there any advantage for the dial types like the Hi-4N or Twin Tec rather than the switches on the 2000i? Just curious
In my experience no advantage/disadvantage switch or pot style. As rigidthumper said, some ignitions also allow you to program with a cable connected to your laptop.
You might consider replacing the pickup with an OEM 'dumb' style, then use an ignition that's mounted under the seat. Given you had the one melt, putting all the electrics in the cone could result in a melted down ignition but it's more likely to start misfiring when you're stuck in stopped traffic on a hot day...
I have used both in cone and external ignitions and I haven't had a cone mounted one die, but I know of several failures. The in cone ignition can be a pain in the ass to install depending on the design and wire routing and size. In cone does clean up the wiring a bit and that is a nice benefit. Stock pickup and a module under the seat is probably best long term.
Quote from: rageglide on March 10, 2020, 01:10:18 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 10, 2020, 11:14:32 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 05, 2020, 05:19:22 PM
Yep, gets hot in those Evo cones. It could run forever, but I would replace it.
While yer in there...... :SM:
https://www.zippersperformance.com/dyna-2000i-ignition/
Is there any advantage for the dial types like the Hi-4N or Twin Tec rather than the switches on the 2000i? Just curious
In my experience no advantage/disadvantage switch or pot style. As rigidthumper said, some ignitions also allow you to program with a cable connected to your laptop.
You might consider replacing the pickup with an OEM 'dumb' style, then use an ignition that's mounted under the seat. Given you had the one melt, putting all the electrics in the cone could result in a melted down ignition but it's more likely to start misfiring when you're stuck in stopped traffic on a hot day...
I have used both in cone and external ignitions and I haven't had a cone mounted one die, but I know of several failures. The in cone ignition can be a pain in the ass to install depending on the design and wire routing and size. In cone does clean up the wiring a bit and that is a nice benefit. Stock pickup and a module under the seat is probably best long term.
Hmm...Thanks for the info. I'm not heavily modifying or looking for every single hp at every rpm so I don't think it'll ever be hooked to the PC.
Mmmk, so I got a chance to get the cam chest open...
I also took a look at my current ignition parts
Six, are those damaged teeth on the breather gear? If you slide it out, are there any signs of damage in the bore?
Quote from: kd on March 10, 2020, 06:51:44 PM
Six, are those damaged teeth on the breather gear? If you slide it out, are there any signs of damage in the bore?
I don't think so, the teeth looked good to me. But I didn't have a chance to pull it, that'll have to wait until.....tomorrow? or maybe next week.
I'm planning to do the steel breather anyway.
It appears that my current ignition is a SE non-adjustable unit and has 6000rpm written on it. I'm going to go ahead and replace the external unit and sensor with the Dynatek 2ki. Is there any reason not to do this?
I also have a SE coil mounted under the tank. I'd think it should be ok to reuse?
Yes there are reasons you should just replace the stock sensor with stock type parts.
Are you prepared to completely rewire the ignition system?
DO you have a need for spark beyond what the SE module provides? (Super high compression, and or do Dyno Shootout Competitions regularly)
I'm all for 'less parts and less work'
EV27
9.5-9.8ish comp.
I don't drag race or do dyno shootouts or anything like that, but I do enjoy a 'spirited' ride up through the gears.
Additional Q:
Is it safe to assume I should reattach the VOES unit? I thought it was missing, but turns out it was just unplugged and had the vacuum line removed. I don't know why the PO unhooked it.
The only reason to disconnect the VOES is if you don't know what it does / understand how it works.
Many think it is a smog device...... :doh:
Quote from: Burnout on March 17, 2020, 08:07:33 AM
The only reason to disconnect the VOES is if you don't know what it does / understand how it works.
Many think it is a smog device...... :doh:
Thanks. Shouldn't you plug the vac ports? or no need if the switch is unplugged? I'm 75% sure the port on the carb is open, but I'd expect running problems if so. IDK, I'll have to get it all back together. But I do plan to reinstall the VOES.
Maybe that explains my 30mpg.
Yes a VOES will improve fuel mileage.
It also allows a lower base timing which makes for easier starting.
Thanks.
I'll continue with the plan to reinstall it. I'm sure I'll have more questions when that time comes. I'm hoping to begin the lower-end part assembly today if UPS delivers the cam and breather gear.
Hey Six, if you have some micrometers, and can get access to a couple of 0.108" round pins, or something very close, it's not a bad idea to measure the stock cam gear and compare to the new cam gear. Last page of the Andrews sheet shows you what I mean.
Also above the image, they list the OEM color codes to gear size. Your OEM should have a paint mark somewhere on the gear.
90% of the time it's fine, but in some cases they can be different. You can end up with a loose or a tight gear mesh.
https://www.andrewsproducts.com/sites/www.andrewsproducts.com/files/assets/CamEV80.pdf
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 17, 2020, 10:56:04 AM
Hey Six, if you have some micrometers, and can get access to a couple of 0.108" round pins, or something very close, it's not a bad idea to measure the stock cam gear and compare to the new cam gear. Last page of the Andrews sheet shows you what I mean.
Also above the image, they list the OEM color codes to gear size. Your OEM should have a paint mark somewhere on the gear.
90% of the time it's fine, but in some cases they can be different. You can end up with a loose or a tight gear mesh.
https://www.andrewsproducts.com/sites/www.andrewsproducts.com/files/assets/CamEV80.pdf
Thanks, I don't really have any way to measure it.
What's the consensus on reusing the old gear? I'm pretty sure I can have it pressed off/on. Just wondering.
Edit... I might be able to figure out a way to measure. I'll certainly try that.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 17, 2020, 02:22:14 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 17, 2020, 10:56:04 AM
Hey Six, if you have some micrometers, and can get access to a couple of 0.108" round pins, or something very close, it's not a bad idea to measure the stock cam gear and compare to the new cam gear. Last page of the Andrews sheet shows you what I mean.
Also above the image, they list the OEM color codes to gear size. Your OEM should have a paint mark somewhere on the gear.
90% of the time it's fine, but in some cases they can be different. You can end up with a loose or a tight gear mesh.
https://www.andrewsproducts.com/sites/www.andrewsproducts.com/files/assets/CamEV80.pdf
Thanks, I don't really have any way to measure it.
What's the consensus on reusing the old gear? I'm pretty sure I can have it pressed off/on. Just wondering.
Edit... I might be able to figure out a way to measure. I'll certainly try that.
ive always just used old gear
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 16, 2020, 09:47:44 AM
It appears that my current ignition is a SE non-adjustable unit and has 6000rpm written on it. I'm going to go ahead and replace the external unit and sensor with the Dynatek 2ki. Is there any reason not to do this?
I also have a SE coil mounted under the tank. I'd think it should be ok to reuse?
its already there and works , spend that money on Port work instead :wink:
pulled my old cam out tonight....AND what a pita the little chrome covers were on the tappet blocks. And left a hell of a mess on the blocks themselves, they left a nasty silicone type goo that was between the cover and the actual block......ANYWAY
I found a nice surprise:
did I say "nice surprise"?
Oh, and some of the mess on the blocks. And the breather gear, it looks really good, but I'll go with steel anyway.
What is the Bluetooth on there ?
Quote from: FSG on March 17, 2020, 08:24:42 PM
What is the Bluetooth on there ?
I assume you are looking at the module there by the ignition?
It's not hooked to anything, but it's attached with 2sided tape. I guess the PO just didn't want to peel it off :idunno:
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 17, 2020, 07:34:35 PM
pulled my old cam out tonight....AND what a pita the little chrome covers were on the tappet blocks. And left a hell of a mess on the blocks themselves, they left a nasty silicone type goo that was between the cover and the actual block......ANYWAY
I found a nice surprise:
Those covers are stupid. I throw them away.
Quote from: cheech on March 17, 2020, 09:23:24 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 17, 2020, 07:34:35 PM
pulled my old cam out tonight....AND what a pita the little chrome covers were on the tappet blocks. And left a hell of a mess on the blocks themselves, they left a nasty silicone type goo that was between the cover and the actual block......ANYWAY
I found a nice surprise:
Those covers are stupid. I throw them away.
I can assure you....These will NOT be going back on.
QuoteThose covers are stupid. I throw them away.
you can say that again :SM:
So now the million dollar question...should I put the EVL-3010 back in or stick with the plan for the EV27?
I have no complaints about the 3010 from before the tear-down. But it felt like it began to run out of steam in the higher RPM, so I'm thinking the 27 may do better. But the bike also wasn't tuned properly, getting about 30mpg with the VOES unhooked. I did find the vac port on the carb and it had a rubber cap over it, but it was split down the side and likely leaking.
I have very little knowledge regarding cam designs and such. So maybe my thinking is all wrong.
Also, the "EVL-3010" looks hand written on the gear and there's a "D" on the end lobe of this cam. Anyone have any insight into why? Is this the stock gear that was swapped over?
Thanks for any info.
It's hard to compare the two because the EV27 is a split duration cam.
I don't think one cam will rev significantly higher that the other.
I think the big difference between the two would be which determined by the exhaust system.
It seems the 27 would favor mufflers?
The 3010 might be the winner with a long primary exhaust and minimally restrictive muffler?
Quote from: Burnout on March 18, 2020, 08:44:28 AM
It's hard to compare the two because the EV27 is a split duration cam.
I don't think one cam will rev significantly higher that the other.
I think the big difference between the two would be which determined by the exhaust system.
It seems the 27 would favor mufflers?
thanks, Is that referring to the intake and exhaust durations being different?
I know cam choice and effectiveness can be a slippery slope.
I would save your money and use the 3010 cam. Just hookup the voes and jet accordingly. Most complained about valve train noise from the ev-27.
MIKE
Quote from: MikeL on March 18, 2020, 08:55:43 AM
I would save your money and use the 3010 cam. Just hookup the voes and jet accordingly. Most complained about valve train noise from the ev-27.
MIKE
That's kinda the direction I'm leaning just based on work involved. I would have the gear swapped over to the 27 if I go that route. But just from reading, I can't tell that there's much difference in the end result from the 2 options. And I don't know enough about it to tell based on the specs.
Edit: anyone know what the 'D' means on the end of the lobe? Is that a batch number or revision?
Refresh, new lifters, retune
while I wait on my new lifters to arrive from Larry...
What's the thoughts on the tappet blocks themselves? they are very messy from the crap that was under those covers. But do they wear out or is there a way to determine the wear?
I can replace them or clean them up and reuse......thoughts? thanks
So, I think I'm going to just go ahead and stick with the 3010 cam for now. Unless someone thinks the 27 would be appreciably better with the compression bump, I should be around 9.5:1. But wouldn't that help either cam?
so, now my only dilemma is the tappet blocks. To replace or not? 50k-ish miles on them, but do they actually wear out?
You can measure the bore of the tappet blocks to see if they are in spec. HD spec for 1998 FLHTCI is as follows :
Fit in guide ...Exceeds 0.003 inches or 0.08 mm
This information is from my HD service manual for 1998 FLHTCI, but I think spec would be same for your Road King
Quote from: twincamzz on March 19, 2020, 09:31:00 AM
You can measure the bore of the tappet blocks to see if they are in spec. HD spec for 1998 FLHTCI is as follows :
Fit in guide ...Exceeds 0.003 inches or 0.08 mm
Thanks, I'll double check the SM for 1997.
Keep the 3010.
Clean the outside of the tappet blocks with GooGone. Those covers were held in with silicone .
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 19, 2020, 10:15:55 AM
Keep the 3010.
Clean the outside of the tappet blocks with GooGone. Those covers were held in with silicone .
:up: that's the plan.
reinstalled the 3010 last night along with the S&S breather gear and Carlini Tq arm. Also tapped the cylinders for the oil return pigtails
Going to try cleaning the tappet blocks tonight and might install them with the new lifters if I have time, also going to try installing the Rockouts tonight as well.
I'm finally going to have a free weekend. So hopefully, I can make some progress. Heck, I might even be able to fire it up assuming I don't break anything. Stay tuned for assembly questions, as I'm sure I'll have a few.
Not quite as much progress as I hoped, I was busy with house chores most of Saturday. I got the tappet blocks clean (that silicone was a PITA to scrape off) then installed them with the new lifters. Next task was new studs, then pistons and rings into cylinders, and got the cylinders on. Was then able to get the heads on and torqued. Followed by the rear rockers (all the Rockouts are installed as well)
Tomorrow, I'll get the front rockers on and the covers. Probably get the intake and exhaust back on Tuesday, as I expect it'll be a slow process. Tank and dash on Wednesday. Then I'll either try starting or just spend some time cleaning up and wait until a non-rainy day for firing up and breaking in. Also need to drain and refill the primary and readjust the clutch and cable.
It's progressing.
You might want to make the heat cycles before cleaning the bike, just in case you have to go back in. And I would make the heat cycles as soon as you can, don't wait till it can be ridden due to weather. In the event of issues, you know sooner.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 23, 2020, 02:50:33 AM
You might want to make the heat cycles before cleaning the bike, just in case you have to go back in. And I would make the heat cycles as soon as you can, don't wait till it can be ridden due to weather. In the event of issues, you know sooner.
Question that I'm pretty sure I know the answer to:
Before torquing down the rockers, should I completely loosen the adj. pushrods? I'm assuming, yes?
your assumption is correct.
:agree:
Thanks guys, I figured as much.
Any point to measuring the lengths before I shorten them? Or is it a complete reset with the new lifters?
"Any point to measuring the lengths before I shorten them?"
None at all.
Anything that changes the height of the stack will affect pushrod length.
Base gaskets
Head gaskets
Rocker box gaskets
Cylinder length
Heads milled?
Cam base circle
Lifter length
Since there are a lot of places for MFG tolerance to stack up, there is the potential for a considerable change.
Add in milling heads, or cutting the bases (to bring the piston all the way up) and you could easily see .100" difference.
Quote from: Burnout on March 23, 2020, 01:20:46 PM
"Any point to measuring the lengths before I shorten them?"
None at all.
Anything that changes the height of the stack will affect pushrod length.
Base gaskets
Head gaskets
Rocker box gaskets
Cylinder length
Heads milled?
Cam base circle
Lifter length
thanks...It all changed except the cam
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 23, 2020, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Burnout on March 23, 2020, 01:20:46 PM
"Any point to measuring the lengths before I shorten them?"
None at all.
Anything that changes the height of the stack will affect pushrod length.
Base gaskets
Head gaskets
Rocker box gaskets
Cylinder length
Heads milled?
Cam base circle
Lifter length
thanks...It all changed except the cam
annnnddd, you have no idea how the previous guy did it. I'd go with a fresh adjustment too.
indeed
you oil/ soak the new lifters ? whats the carlini torque arm for ?
Quote from: hbkeith on March 23, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
you oil/ soak the new lifters ? whats the carlini torque arm for ?
I soaked them for an hour-ish.
I'm not sure why the torque arm, PO had it on there. :idunno:
The shop that did the work for the guy probably told him he'd need it. :chop:
Early FXR and FLH had troubles with the trans to motor mount.
The Carlini brace helped take some of the load off the crap method they used to join the motor and trans together.
97 is a 10 year later model though not sure if it was still needed.
beats me, but I figure the bolts with the arm might be longer than without and I don't have a set of shorter, stock, ones, so I reinstalled it. I don't think it hurts anything, except it makes it a pita to remover the cam cover.
:up: , im quite familiar with the arm , just thought it was something you added , i would probally reinstall also if already had it
A friend of mine got some new lifters for his twin cam, (not sure of the brand) and they came with instructions to NOT soak them in oil before installing. Of course he read this after having them in oil for a couple hours.
No problems it seems.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 23, 2020, 02:00:00 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 23, 2020, 01:23:13 PM
Quote from: Burnout on March 23, 2020, 01:20:46 PM
"Any point to measuring the lengths before I shorten them?"
None at all.
Anything that changes the height of the stack will affect pushrod length.
Base gaskets
Head gaskets
Rocker box gaskets
Cylinder length
Heads milled?
Cam base circle
Lifter length
thanks...It all changed except the cam
annnnddd, you have no idea how the previous guy did it. I'd go with a fresh adjustment too.
:up: after a new cam and cam bearing install at a reputable shop we (old Crow and I ) found mine were probably measured and not readjusted after the new cam install, makes a big difference and you'll thank yourself for doing it right the first time
Quote from: Burnout on March 23, 2020, 05:55:57 PM
Early FXR and FLH had troubles with the trans to motor mount.
The Carlini brace helped take some of the load off the crap method they used to join the motor and trans together.
97 is a 10 year later model though not sure if it was still needed.
I will respectfully Submit, That I have seen more than a few very High Performance FXR's at the Drag Strip... very Few with the Carlini arm...and none Broken in the Suspect area... But... our guys keep up on Maintenance... including checking All Fasteners Frequently...
BTW; My Bought Showroom new 1982 FXRS has Not had an easy life, yet no problems without no damn Carlini Arm... Oh!! andf the '83 with a somewhat hotter than stock '93 EVO in it has no such Band-Aide either... and I sometime take it down the Strip... Just for Giggles!!!!
And my 87 FXR doesn't have a brace and has not been treated well.
2 trans mainshafts and clutch hubs failed then 2 belts were snapped.
It now has a splined mainshaft, bandit clutch and a chain final and the time spent on the rear wheel can be measured in miles.
No Carlini brace.
Another thing to check on these models is that the front mount is in good condition and shimmed if needed to keep the cases from hitting the frame when stunt riding. :soda:
I don't think Six is doing any stunt riding on his RK, but I don't want to speak for him, he might just be a lunatic that I did not suspect!
I also agree with him that if it's there, reinstall it.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 24, 2020, 10:25:20 AM
I don't think Six is doing any stunt riding on his RK, but I don't want to speak for him, he might just be a lunatic that I did not suspect!
I also agree with him that if it's there, reinstall it.
I've been called worse things.....lmao
IF you only knew why I was in the garage at 12:30 last night putting the heads and cylinders back on.....nevermind, I'll stop there :embarrassed: :slap:
No need to know why, in fact no reason needed at all! I've actually gotten out of bed to go do something on the bike so I could finally relax and go to sleep.
:dgust: Back on??? OK, fess up. :teeth:
alright...alright...
Ya know those little 'C' clips that hold the wrist pin......There's supposed to be one on each side :hyst: for a total of 4...not 3!! Oh, but which one did I forget??? uhh, idk, guess I better check them both...sure enough, the front had only 1.
It's never good to find leftover parts sitting on the floorboard. I spent 10 minutes digging in the trash to make sure I had all 4 old ones and that the one I found was actually a new one.... Oh well, sure glad I found it before I had the tank on and was ready to fire it up.
Good for you Six. Your organization payed off. There'll be several people on here reading this that can identify with your dilemma.
:embarrassed: Other's may be lucky enough to learn something before they feel the pain. :hyst:
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 24, 2020, 10:53:21 AM
alright...alright...
Ya know those little 'C' clips that hold the wrist pin......There's supposed to be one on each side :hyst: for a total of 4...not 3!! Oh, but which one did I forget??? uhh, idk, guess I better check them both...sure enough, the front had only 1.
It's never good to find leftover parts sitting on the floorboard. I spent 10 minutes digging in the trash to make sure I had all 4 old ones and that the one I found was actually a new one.... Oh well, sure glad I found it before I had the tank on and was ready to fire it up.
so the first time was just a practice run, yeah been there - :smilep:
It's like you were watching me put things back together. And apart. And back together.
Good catch!
For those of us that are not professional Harley mechanics and only do this on our personal equipment (like me), this happens all the time. No matter how many years you been doing it. My most recent FUBAR was maybe a year ago doing a top end on my '92 softail. All back together, fire it up, and.... whoa. That sure is a lot of smoke coming out the exhaust. After riding around for a while and the 'rings not bedding in', I made a quick consultation with my machinist who did the bore job. He said make sure the rings are installed the right side up. Should be marked. I did recall that when I put them in, the 2nd rings had no mark, so I put them in as instructed if no mark. Well, I tore it all down, pulled the rings, and sure enough, 2nd rings were upside down. I flipped the rings, put it all back together reusing the gaskets, fire it up and exhaust is clean as clean can be. Lesson learned!
And the list goes on and on, hence the motto: What's worth doing, is worth doing over. And over. And over...
:SM:
-JW
Alrighty fellers...
Pushrod adjustment,...right now, they are set to just touching the lifter when on the base circle...
How do I know how much further to go? I don't know for sure the brand.
Count the threads per inch, and figure out how many turns to get 0.100" to 0.110" depth.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 24, 2020, 07:44:58 PM
Count the threads per inch, and figure out how many turns to get 0.100" to 0.110" depth.
thanks, I can do that.
How believable is 24 TPI?
Leading to 14.4 flats? Or 2.4 turns? For 0.1" 16ish for 0.11"
Very believable.
Great, I'll split the difference with 15.
Thanks
Got the pushrods adjusted and exhaust mounted (another one of those PITA jobs) and refilled the fluids last night. Except the primary....as apparently my primary fluid is in my other truck 120 miles away, along with my stubby wrenches and low profile socket set.... Hopefully I can find some locally without having to run to the city.
next steps are: Intake and VOES and getting the tank back on.
anyone happen to know the size of vac line for VOES???? I read somewhere on the internets that it was 3/16" but the local AZ only has 5/32 and 7/32.....I grabbed 5ft of 7/32 and some hose clamps, if it leaks, I'll try the 5/32 or call around to see if anyone stocks 3/16.
The 7/32 vac hose should work fine. By my calculations it's 1/32" bigger, so same size. Good luck measuring that difference.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 25, 2020, 09:57:44 AM
The 7/32 vac hose should work fine. By my calculations it's 1/32" bigger, so same size. Good luck measuring that difference.
that was my thought. I'd rather go a C-hair over and clamp it down than heave-forbid break off the little nipple on the switch or carb trying to force the smaller hose on.
And if you're really worried, put a dab of silicone around the end of the hose when installed. It's pretty low pressure, so you shouldn't have any problems, just don't overclamp it and break a plastic barb if present. I often just twist some wire on small vacuum hoses as a clamp instead of an actual clamp.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 25, 2020, 10:09:02 AM
And if you're really worried, put a dab of silicone around the end of the hose when installed. It's pretty low pressure, so you shouldn't have any problems, just don't overclamp it and break a plastic barb if present. I often just twist some wire on small vacuum hoses as a clamp instead of an actual clamp.
LOL, albeit unless a intake backfire. It's under vacuum, which is a absence of pressure. Which would help the hose stay on.
But you know that. Your fingers didn't at the time maybe. :teeth:
And FWIW, I don't think there are any clamps on it originally.
Quote from: cheech on March 25, 2020, 12:08:15 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on March 25, 2020, 10:09:02 AM
And if you're really worried, put a dab of silicone around the end of the hose when installed. It's pretty low pressure, so you shouldn't have any problems, just don't overclamp it and break a plastic barb if present. I often just twist some wire on small vacuum hoses as a clamp instead of an actual clamp.
LOL, albeit unless a intake backfire. It's under vacuum, which is a absence of pressure. Which would help the hose stay on.
But you know that. Your fingers didn't at the time maybe. :teeth:
And FWIW, I don't think there are any clamps on it originally.
maybe he meant 'negative' pressure?
And technically, the atm is putting pressure on the outside. So......
But yeah, the clamps are only there to keep the slightly larger id hose from slipping off the barbs.
Not just keep the hose on, but to keep the motor from pulling air, i.e. vacuum leak.
And yes, low pressure. Atmosphere is ~15psi at sea level. Pressure inside the intake manifold at anything but full throttle is less than that, but never reaches zero psi.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on March 25, 2020, 05:07:05 PM
Not just keep the hose on, but to keep the motor from pulling air, i.e. vacuum leak.
And yes, low pressure. Atmosphere is ~15psi at sea level. Pressure inside the intake manifold at anything but full throttle is less than that, but never reaches zero psi.
-JW
:kick: Yes, thanks for the correction. Its not a full vacuum. Less than atmospheric.
Alrighty folks.......only remaining thing is to unhook the tender and put the seat on, and check tire pressures.
Anything critical I should 100% triple check before I fire it up tomorrow? I have turned the engine by hand a couple times with no bangs or hangups. Fluids are good, throttle operates, clutch operates, choke operates, lights light when the key is on.
Regarding the VOES, I attached the vac line and clamps and plugged in the plug that goes back to the ignition module. Anything else needed for that?
Double check your fuel line and routing. Look around for any spare parts laying around that should be on the bike (done a couple times now, I'm sure!). Make sure no fasteners were left loose that you were going to "get to in a minute," Wipe down the exhaust. Lube your kickstand. (Just one of my procedures any time I've got the bike up.) Control your heartbeat and fire it up. Check the oil light that it is off. Check for fuel leaks. Listen for odd noises. Do not rev it up. Do a fist pump, and congratulate yourself!
After riding, check exhaust fasteners.
You never said what you are using for start-up oil or if you plan to change it after heat cycles (cool to well warmed up) and a 50 mile shakedown period. (kinda what I would do) I use a 15-40 Shell Rotella T for 3 - 4 heat cycles and drain. Install a 15-40 fresh oil (no filter change) and do 50 miles driving normal with a couple of stops long enough to completely cool down. The first 50 miles are varied rpm with accel and decel. I listen and look over when staring cold and before shutting off hot. I then change oil and filter to what I will use. I use Syn LiquiMoly 10-60 so the first 200 miles will actually be a 20-50 dino oil. After 200 miles it's oil and filter to my syn oil and ride.
I actually use 10w30 or 5w30 dino oil. It's not going to be in there very long, and it gets through the motor fast as it's thin. Heat cycles shouldn't get the motor more than moderately worm.
Dump it, use a cheaper or your regular oil for 50 miles, change again. Back to normal.
I'll start with Pennzoil 10w-40 then change it to Valvoline 20w-50
I did rub some 20w50 on the cylinders and piston/rings when installing. As well as assy lube on the cam lobes and gear and on the breather, pushrods, lifters, rockers, valves, wrist pins, etc.
Fixing to head out to fire it up. I'll let yall know how it goes.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 26, 2020, 10:00:01 AM
I did rub some 20w50 on the cylinders and piston/rings when installing. As well as assy lube on the cam lobes and gear and on the breather, pushrods, lifters, rockers, valves, wrist pins, etc.
Fixing to head out to fire it up. I'll let yall know how it goes.
Rings are supposed to be assembled dry!!!! Only the skirts get oiled some small bit... far as I was Taught..
and you did of course scrub the hell out of those cylinders with very hot soapy water??? right??
Quote from: Racepres on March 26, 2020, 10:16:24 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 26, 2020, 10:00:01 AM
I did rub some 20w50 on the cylinders and piston/rings when installing. As well as assy lube on the cam lobes and gear and on the breather, pushrods, lifters, rockers, valves, wrist pins, etc.
Fixing to head out to fire it up. I'll let yall know how it goes.
Rings are supposed to be assembled dry!!!! Only the skirts get oiled some small bit... far as I was Taught..
and you did of course scrub the hell out of those cylinders with very hot soapy water??? right??
You are correct, the oil went on the piston below the rings. But I did it after the rings were on, so they were a bit oily. And yep, the cylinders were scrubbed well with alcohol and soapy water until the towel came out whiter than it went in.
First start went well. Just a little smoke from around the exhaust header pipes for about 10 seconds. But it wasn't being puffed out and I didn't feel any air movement. I did use the enrichener for the first 30ish seconds, then it idled nice and smooth on it's own. There's no tach, but it sounds like it's at 900ish rpm based on other bikes I've listened to. But I can't be sure the idle speed.
No bangs or smoke out the mufflers, so that's good, right?
I ran it a good minute-ish now it's cooling off and I'll start again and go for a short ride....
Should I drain the oil now, while it's hot/warm?
This always works for me.
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/tech-tips/new-engine-installation
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 26, 2020, 10:43:54 AM
This always works for me.
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/tech-tips/new-engine-installation
so you wait until after the first 50 to change?
Six, this is not the time to be impatient. I personally would do at least 2 more heat cycles. Heat cycles get the rings familiar with the change in the cylinders as the heat up and I think that's important. Put fans on it (from a distance) and it will cool nice and even. After the 3 heat cycles you can chose to dump the oil or make heat cycle #4 a ride around the block sort of thing, Your heat cycles would not have actually brought the heat up to operating temp but #4 will. I wouldn't be shy about dumping the oil when you get back from heat cycle # 4 with the engine now hot. Listen to the engine before you shut it off because it is now up to temp. Do a real good inspection. Refill the oil and that will be for your next 200 miles. Next change is oil and filter and in the wind. :up: :up:
Added later
What I posted is somewhat what Ohio included in his comment. It better explains the reasons for taking the time after the first fire. Oil is cheap for this type of break in purpose.
In case anyone is interested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XGYg3TnxwI
There was some guy running a pressure washer outside, so the audio isn't great.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 26, 2020, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 26, 2020, 10:43:54 AM
This always works for me.
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/tech-tips/new-engine-installation
so you wait until after the first 50 to change?
After I make six heat cycles, I dump the thin oil. Then I replace it with what ever I will use. Then I change it again in 50 miles. A new filter at each change.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,111382.msg1339026.html#msg1339026
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 26, 2020, 11:01:06 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 26, 2020, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 26, 2020, 10:43:54 AM
This always works for me.
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/tech-tips/new-engine-installation
so you wait until after the first 50 to change?
After I make six heat cycles, I dump the thin oil. Then I replace it with what ever I will use. Then I change it again in 50 miles. A new filter at each change.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,111382.msg1339026.html#msg1339026
10-4
:agree: Good practice. That's actually what I did with my 120 last time.
Quote from: kd on March 26, 2020, 10:52:44 AM
Six, this is not the time to be impatient. I personally would do at least 2 more heat cycles. Heat cycles get the rings familiar with the change in the cylinders as the heat up and I think that's important. Put fans on it (from a distance) and it will cool nice and even. After the 3 heat cycles you can chose to dump the oil or make heat cycle #4 a ride around the block sort of thing, Your heat cycles would not have actually brought the heat up to operating temp but #4 will. I wouldn't be shy about dumping the oil when you get back from heat cycle # 4 with the engine now hot. Listen to the engine before you shut it off because it is now up to temp. Do a real good inspection. Refill the oil and that will be for your next 200 miles. Next change is oil and filter and in the wind. :up: :up:
Added later
What I posted is somewhat what Ohio included in his comment. It better explains the reasons for taking the time after the first fire. Oil is cheap for this type of break in purpose.
:teeth: :up:
Your motorcycle sounds good & healthy to me Six !! :chop:
* Millwright approved !!
Quote from: twincamzz on March 26, 2020, 02:16:10 PM
Your motorcycle sounds good & healthy to me Six !! :chop:
* not a HD tech...just another Millwright !
:doh: Oh lord, a Millwright :emoGroan:
:hyst: :pop: HAHA, thanks....I work with a dozen Millwrights that love nothing more than poking fun at us engineers, well they love beer too. :beer:
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 26, 2020, 02:18:41 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 26, 2020, 02:16:10 PM
Your motorcycle sounds good & healthy to me Six !! :chop:
* not a HD tech...just another Millwright !
:doh: Oh lord, a Millwright :emoGroan:
:hyst: :pop: HAHA, thanks....I work with a dozen Millwrights that love nothing more than poking fun at us engineers, well they love beer too. :beer:
Consider that an even bigger compliment then... not bad for an engineer !! :SM:
welp, did 5 heat cycles and a 2 mile ride around the loop. Steady acceleration up to 60mph (1, 2, 3, 4) then back down to 20mph turn around and repeat. Just changed the oil and filter. Will get out tomorrow and put some more miles on it around the farm roads where I can work up and down through the gears without traffic being around. Then I'll check all the fasteners and if I can get another filter, I'll change the fluids again at the end of the day.
Only issue was some oil mist during the 2nd warm up around the rear pushrod tubes. Intake was bubbling around the top and ex was bubbling around the middle.... Pulled the clips off and wiggled/jiggled the tubes and made sure the Orings were there and weren't cut/chewed. Put the clips back on and had no more trouble, hopefully it's fixed. Did make a mess though, was spurting oil on the rear cylinder and header pipe. I cleaned it up, so any more should be noticeable.
:crook: when I put the O ring in the back head I put it in the head then slid the pushrod tube in, reading the install guide I think that was the wrong way, I forget now, so the front head I put the O ring on the tube and pushed it up into the head, guess which one leaked some...... the front :cry:
Quote from: Pete_Vit on March 27, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
:crook: when I put the O ring in the back head I put it in the head then slid the pushrod tube in, reading the install guide I think that was the wrong way, I forget now, so the front head I put the O ring on the tube and pushed it up into the head, guess which one leaked some...... the front :cry:
Haha, I put it on the tube then pushed up into the head......Then the tube fell down and O-ring stayed.
My problem was with the clips. One wasn't all the way on the flange at the top and the other one the Oring wasn't down in the flare of the lower tube. Hopefully they're all where they go now. Going to try to ride again at lunch.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 27, 2020, 08:08:24 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on March 27, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
:crook: when I put the O ring in the back head I put it in the head then slid the pushrod tube in, reading the install guide I think that was the wrong way, I forget now, so the front head I put the O ring on the tube and pushed it up into the head, guess which one leaked some...... the front :cry:
Haha, I put it on the tube then pushed up into the head......Then the tube fell down and O-ring stayed.
My problem was with the clips. One wasn't all the way on the flange at the top and the other one the Oring wasn't down in the flare of the lower tube. Hopefully they're all where they go now. Going to try to ride again at lunch.
oh the clips :embarrassed: i will not publicly tell you my issues with the 2 piece tubes and the clips
yep I'm a greene :dgust:
Quote from: Pete_Vit on March 27, 2020, 10:29:50 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on March 27, 2020, 08:08:24 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on March 27, 2020, 06:31:16 AM
:crook: when I put the O ring in the back head I put it in the head then slid the pushrod tube in, reading the install guide I think that was the wrong way, I forget now, so the front head I put the O ring on the tube and pushed it up into the head, guess which one leaked some...... the front :cry:
Haha, I put it on the tube then pushed up into the head......Then the tube fell down and O-ring stayed.
My problem was with the clips. One wasn't all the way on the flange at the top and the other one the Oring wasn't down in the flare of the lower tube. Hopefully they're all where they go now. Going to try to ride again at lunch.
oh the clips :embarrassed: i will not publicly tell you my issues with the 2 piece tubes and the clips
yep I'm a greene :dgust:
I crushed 2 of them, had to hammer them back into round over a 1/2" socket. And I tore the little slot out of one with the screwdriver......They're not pretty, but they're on there and I just rode 25miles to get gas and no leaking. So, that's good.
I came damn close pulling out the dremel and sandpaper and shortening them a bit.
They need to be tight. The top end will lengthen with heat, the tubes, not so much. Then you lose pressure on the o-rings.
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 11:46:56 AM
They need to be tight. The top end will lengthen with heat, the tubes, not so much. Then you lose pressure on the o-rings.
They definitely are. The O-rings can squish also with time and heat, so I get that. But dang, it seemed a bit excessive.
Yeah, some are tighter than others. There's also a knack you get for putting them on. I also have the Motion Pro tool. It works ok when you have a real stiff one. Otherwise I use a screw driver.
These don't come out unless I'm cussing! :gob:
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0255
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 11:53:09 AM
Yeah, some are tighter than others. There's also a knack you get for putting them on. I also have the Motion Pro tool. It works ok when you have a real stiff one. Otherwise I use a screw driver.
These don't come out unless I'm cussing! :gob:
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0255
Yeah, I saw a video on YT of a guy using one of those. I almost ordered one. I ended up using a screwdriver with some fuel line on the end to pry against the cylinder fin. I don't really like that method though. So I might go ahead and order the tool anyway, just to have one.
I never grab a fin. I just get a different screw driver if I'm having troubles. That was before the tool was around.
I remember being young and strong, and just pulling the collar down and popping the clips in.
I had some pretty strong beer can crushers at one time. :teeth:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 12:01:01 PM
I never grab a fin. I just get a different screw driver if I'm having troubles. That was before the tool was around.
I remember being young and strong, and just pulling the collar down and popping the clips in.
I had some pretty strong beer can crushers at one time. :teeth:
I tried pulling the clip down with a screwdriver through the loop in the side...But the loop tore out and the clip started flaring out and buckling in the middle. Then I got a 2nd driver and pried the cup down while I pushed down with the clip. It took a few tries, but it worked. Really could have used another pair of hands. But I've said that a few times in the last month or so.
Sorry for being lazy, but this is a long thread. Can't remember if you cut the heads down or not. If you did, yes, the pushrod clips will be hard to get in. I had my '92 heads cut 50 thou, and took that much off the clips.
-JW
The tool is the deal. If don't have that.
To install; Insert tubes, put the clip up in the top flange, screwdriver blade between clip and collar, push on clip with thumb while rocking screwdriver up and down with other hand.
I'm alone or would of video'd for you, and my index finger is where my left thumb should be, right hand working screwdriver.
Obviously phone was in right hand.
[attach=0]
About in so hand out of way.
[attach=1]
:up:
Thanks, that does look a bit easier.
Quote from: JW113 on March 27, 2020, 12:59:36 PM
Sorry for being lazy, but this is a long thread. Can't remember if you cut the heads down or not. If you did, yes, the pushrod clips will be hard to get in. I had my '92 heads cut 50 thou, and took that much off the clips.
-JW
I was wondering the same JW, if the previous owner had them cut. I don't know how thick an Evo head should be, I do know TC is 3.750" milled surface to milled surface.
Quote from: cheech on March 27, 2020, 01:26:33 PM
The tool is the deal. If don't have that.
To install; Insert tubes, put the clip up in the top flange, screwdriver blade between clip and collar, push on clip with thumb while rocking screwdriver up and down with other hand.
I'm alone or would of video'd for you, and my index finger is where my left thumb should be, right hand working screwdriver.
Obviously phone was in right hand.
[attach=0,msg1339284]
About in so hand out of way.
[attach=1,msg1339284]
That's the way. :up:
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
I was wondering the same JW, if the previous owner had them cut. I don't know how thick an Evo head should be, I do know TC is 3.750" milled surface to milled surface.
If the bottom surface of the head is cut say 50 thou, then the push rod tube seat in the head is now 50 thou closer to the engine case. You can still get the pushrod tube clips in, but as Six is finding, you have to squeeze the whole stack 50 thou more each than stock.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on March 27, 2020, 03:06:09 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
I was wondering the same JW, if the previous owner had them cut. I don't know how thick an Evo head should be, I do know TC is 3.750" milled surface to milled surface.
If the bottom surface of the head is cut say 50 thou, then the push rod tube seat in the head is now 50 thou closer to the engine case. You can still get the pushrod tube clips in, but as Six is finding, you have to squeeze the whole stack 50 thou more each than stock.
-JW
Understood. I was just referring to the head gasket surface to the rocker box surface on a TC is 3.750" Then they get thinner as you mill the head gasket surface, and as you noted everything gets closer to the cases.
Maybe Larry or John will see this, they no doubt can shed light on what an unmolested head thickness is, just for reference.
Never had the tool, just did it the way cheech showed. A friend just got the tool, it is slick as hell. Made easy work off and on.
Yes the tried and true screwdriver works fine. I use a thin blade cabinet style, with long handle.
I have a set of these, but have never actually used them yet. A simple and clever idea, would make removal/installation of these clips a lot easier.
[attach=0]
-JW
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 03:25:18 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 27, 2020, 03:06:09 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
I was wondering the same JW, if the previous owner had them cut. I don't know how thick an Evo head should be, I do know TC is 3.750" milled surface to milled surface.
If the bottom surface of the head is cut say 50 thou, then the push rod tube seat in the head is now 50 thou closer to the engine case. You can still get the pushrod tube clips in, but as Six is finding, you have to squeeze the whole stack 50 thou more each than stock.
-JW
Understood. I was just referring to the head gasket surface to the rocker box surface on a TC is 3.750" Then they get thinner as you mill the head gasket surface, and as you noted everything gets closer to the cases.
Maybe Larry or John will see this, they no doubt can shed light on what an unmolested head thickness is, just for reference.
I just checked 3 Evo heads, and I know 2 sets are milled. The 3rd set measured 3.770". I believe they haven't been clipped yet. I just dropped a set of 1988 head castings off at my powder coaters, that I know are stock, on a EVO Springer that's in for a rebuild. Prolly not see them till middle of next week. I'll check when I get them back if we're allowed out. Daytona is getting bad.
John
Quote from: jsachs1 on March 28, 2020, 02:23:29 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 03:25:18 PM
Quote from: JW113 on March 27, 2020, 03:06:09 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on March 27, 2020, 01:45:45 PM
I was wondering the same JW, if the previous owner had them cut. I don't know how thick an Evo head should be, I do know TC is 3.750" milled surface to milled surface.
If the bottom surface of the head is cut say 50 thou, then the push rod tube seat in the head is now 50 thou closer to the engine case. You can still get the pushrod tube clips in, but as Six is finding, you have to squeeze the whole stack 50 thou more each than stock.
-JW
Understood. I was just referring to the head gasket surface to the rocker box surface on a TC is 3.750" Then they get thinner as you mill the head gasket surface, and as you noted everything gets closer to the cases.
Maybe Larry or John will see this, they no doubt can shed light on what an unmolested head thickness is, just for reference.
I just checked 3 Evo heads, and I know 2 sets are milled. The 3rd set measured 3.770". I believe they haven't been clipped yet. I just dropped a set of 1988 head castings off at my powder coaters, that I know are stock, on a EVO Springer that's in for a rebuild. Prolly not see them till middle of next week. I'll check when I get them back if we're allowed out. Daytona is getting bad.
John
Thank you John, it's appreciated.
And do stay safe and healthy!
well folks, I'm currently at 78 miles since startup. Last night I rode 25 miles and drained the oil and filter, oil came out looking just like it had gone in. I didn't cut the filter open, but the drain plug was clean.
I'm going to try putting on a hundred or so today and then I'll change it again.
So far, no leaks at all from the engine. Bases, heads, tappet blocks, pushrod tubes, and rocker boxes are all dry....But, I'm getting a wee little bit from between the engine and trans. I think it's from one (or more) of the hoses there. I cleaned it all up nice, so I'm going to try riding a mile or 2 and then see where it's coming from. I do believe it's engine oil, so hopefully it's one of the hoses between the oil pump and pan. It's not a bad leak, leaves about 2 drips overnight. from the drain plug and where the oil hose goes into the bottom of the pan. But that's running downhill, so it may/may not be the drain plug itself.
Engine-wise, everything seems to be good though. :up:
Edit: I've not changed anything in the carb yet except hooking up the VOES. The first 75 miles used 2.5 gallons. Which includes 6 startups and all the riding in 3rd and 4th varying the speed/rpm up and down from 40-65mph. So, not too bad I don't think. But certainly too early to tell.
What might be happening is that when you took it apart, some oil dripped down on the engine. Now that you have it running and getting hot, the oil finds it's way to the bottom and drips off. I have this happen often after a tear down. It will usually clear up after a few more rides.
cheers,
JW
Quote from: JW113 on April 04, 2020, 01:19:15 PM
What might be happening is that when you took it apart, some oil dripped down on the engine. Now that you have it running and getting hot, the oil finds it's way to the bottom and drips off. I have this happen often after a tear down. It will usually clear up after a few more rides.
cheers,
JW
It's certainly possible. I also didn't have the trans and crankcase spotless before teardown. I had cleaned around the camchest and everything above the cylinder bases, but not the hole between engine/trans. I also had the pushrod tube leaks from the first start ups. So, I'm going to clean up the middle area and double check the hose clamps. Then I'll give it a start and maybe a short ride to try finding where it might be coming from. I didn't have the O-ring set for the drains either, so that's a possibility, but the old one looked good. We'll see.
Heads back from the powder coater today. Engine should be back together and running end of next week.
Heads stock height = 3.770"
John
[attach=0,msg1340636]
[attach=0]
Thanks for following up on this John. I'll note this in my Evo data. :up:
I found my leak....Coming out of the trans top cover....
I'd check first, see if the fasteners are tight, if you haven't already.
Quote from: Ohio HD on April 04, 2020, 06:05:37 PM
I'd check first, see if the fasteners are tight, if you haven't already.
I did that this morning while cleaning
Quote from: SixShooter14 on April 04, 2020, 06:03:12 PM
I found my leak....Coming out of the trans top cover....
What do you think the chances are your base gasket leak was hot transmission oil flinging around in the wind and gathering where it looked like a wet base gasket? You probably didn't hit any speeds where that could happen in the few miles you put on since assembly. It wouldn't be the first time an oil leak was not really where the oil ended up from road wind currents. How was the transmission oil level? Is your vent clear?
Quote from: SixShooter14 on April 04, 2020, 06:03:12 PM
I found my leak....Coming out of the trans top cover....
Sweet, in pic you can see someone safety wired the engine case to trans case screws. :up:
Quote from: kd on April 04, 2020, 06:11:10 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on April 04, 2020, 06:03:12 PM
I found my leak....Coming out of the trans top cover....
What do you think the chances are your base gasket leak was hot transmission oil flinging around in the wind and gathering where it looked like a wet base gasket? You probably didn't hit any speeds where that could happen in the few miles you put on since assembly. It wouldn't be the first time an oil leak was not really where the oil ended up from road wind currents. How was the transmission oil level? Is your vent clear?
I don't think so. I had cleaned the cyl base a few times and noticed the oil return within a mile of riding. So, I don't think that'd be it. I didn't torque the trans cover bolts yet, but I checked each one with an allen key and they were all pretty tight, a couple took maybe a 1/4 turn. Tonight I'll look up the tq spec and then make sure they're proper. Then we'll see if that helps any. I think? the cover can be removed with just the 5 bolts? along with the vent and neutral switch plug thing. So, not a big deal?
Is there anything more to it than pulling 5 bolts, swapping gaskets and re-torquing the bolts?
Quote from: cheech on April 04, 2020, 06:20:01 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on April 04, 2020, 06:03:12 PM
I found my leak....Coming out of the trans top cover....
Sweet, in pic you can see someone safety wired the engine case to trans case screws. :up:
indeed, all the bolts to the trans and primary are wired.....Hell, they even wired the bolts on the damn horn. That didn't keep the horn cover from breaking off the 2 tabs on the back side, but it helped hold it on after they broke. :doh:
Check fluid level- it only holds 20 OZ, IIRC.
2 Leak tips I've found useful over the years. Most leaks are easy to diagnose, but some can be misleading.
Clean area in question, and spray with FOOT POWDER.
Oil on front cylinder area, make a cardboard shield attach to oil seal area of front forks to be sure it's not coming from a fork seal.
John
Quote from: jsachs1 on April 05, 2020, 09:04:15 AM
2 Leak tips I've found useful over the years. Most leaks are easy to diagnose, but some can be misleading.
Clean area in question, and spray with FOOT POWDER.
Oil on front cylinder area, make a cardboard shield attach to oil seal area of front forks to be sure it's not coming from a fork seal.
John
Good advice, had a friend chasing that leak before. Also, leak may look like a fork leak, but can be the steering stem leaking bearing grease. Going a bit off topic here.
Another is a leak on the side de of the motor that is the air cleaner blowing fluid.
the rest of the engine is completely dry except for that trans cover. So, I'm pretty sure that's where it is coming from. You can see the trail of oil leading right up to the base of the cover.
As soon as I find tq specs in the SM, I'll be hitting them with the TQ wrench.
EDIT: FYI... 7-9ft-lbs.....OR, 84-108 in-lbs
Yup, "snug".
Quote from: Hossamania on April 05, 2020, 10:24:39 AM
Yup, "snug".
Yeah, I probably hit that yesterday with the allen key. I'll TQ them with the wrench just to do it.
I'm kinda curious if I should pull the cover and see if the gasket is torn or out of place. If it's intact, I could reinstall.....Nonetheless, I went ahead and ordered the $2 gasket that oughta be here Thursday.
But now, I'm gonna wipe it down again and ride a bit to see if it repeats.
Six, confirm your vent is clear too (if you haven't yet) before you take that ride. Depending on the type of hose you could have a mud dobber wasp blockage. Especially IF you park outside unprotected. Oh yeah, you do. :wink:
Quote from: kd on April 05, 2020, 11:02:11 AM
Six, confirm your vent is clear too (if you haven't yet) before you take that ride. Depending on the type of hose you could have a mud dobber wasp blockage. Especially IF you park outside unprotected. Oh yeah, you do did.:wink:
Fixed that...
Vent is clear and bolts are retorqued, now I'll wipe it down again and see if it returns from the same place.
Oh...and :kick:
Funny you mention loose bolts, I just changed oil on the '12 Ultra, and found oil on the pan up high, the three front pan bolts were loose. Tightened them up, the rest were fine. Going for a ride now, hopefully that takes care of it. Or rather, I should say that unless it gets much worse, it is now "good enough".
No luck, rode a mile and stopped to check and sure enough, the front seam of the cover is oozing. Hopefully a new gasket will fix it.
:baby: success!!! put on the new gasket today and after 30 miles, no leak.
The old one was off-center a bit and crumbly. I did my very best to keep any pieces out of the trans. I don't think anything fell in, I was very careful. Hopefully I can get out and make sure she's all good and clean and no more leaks appear. I'm afraid there may be a secondary leak from the primary side, but I don't know if it was a second leak or just oil from the first running down hill while the bike is on the stand. I'll get her good and clean then hopefully anything new will be a little more clear. Either way, the engine is sealed up good and now the trans...Slowly moving towards a "leak-free" Harley.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on April 08, 2020, 06:24:09 PM
:baby: success!!! put on the new gasket today and after 30 miles, no leak.
The old one was off-center a bit and crumbly. I did my very best to keep any pieces out of the trans. I don't think anything fell in, I was very careful. Hopefully I can get out and make sure she's all good and clean and no more leaks appear. I'm afraid there may be a secondary leak from the primary side, but I don't know if it was a second leak or just oil from the first running down hill while the bike is on the stand. I'll get her good and clean then hopefully anything new will be a little more clear. Either way, the engine is sealed up good and now the trans...Slowly moving towards a "leak-free" Harley.
:up: excellent
feels good don't it - congrats good job
alright, 2 little things I've noticed today.....1) there's still a small leak coming down between the trans/primary...Possibly Shift shaft seal? Haven't confirmed yet. I might pull the primary off and get after it, but haven't decided yet. I would like to narrow it down a little more before then....since once the primary is off, I can't just start it up and see where it's leaking. The other option is to have a shop fix it and replace the drive belt while they're at it, something I'm not sure if I want to do myself. I'm not hurting for funds, so I could easily pay a shop that may be struggling a bit to do it for me, so long as they do it right.
Anyway.... 2nd item is kinda silly...While reading about the carb setup and tuning, I decided to check the connectors and hoses and cables to make sure nothing was binding or showing fresh wear marks (it's been 200 miles since reassembly, something could have been kinked when I put it together) Also checked the VOES hose/fittings to make sure the slightly larger line wasn't loosening...All looked good, except the throttle cable, I think it's mis-adjusted as the end of the 'pull' cable gets slack when closing the throttle, not just lack of tension but actually begins to bend. Maybe that's just the amount of freeplay in it, not sure.......Anyway, then I read on about tuning the idle A-F mix and pilot jet and choke and such...Turns out the Pilot Air Screw is gone...Yep, just gone. Either someone removed and forgot to reinstall or it was screwed out too far and just worked it's way out. But anyway, I've got another and put in there at the starting position of 2 turns out. Haven't started it yet, but I'll give it a try tomorrow to see what difference having that screw installed makes.
OH, and I need or will be needing a front lower motor mount. The top rubber has some pieces hanging off of it where it looks to be coming apart.
I'm assuming you're talking about the cable itself bending a bit, not the sheath too. Pretty normal, part of the "play" in throttle adjustment. I try to adjust most of that out. I like to open the top cap on the bar and adjust the "pull" cable as far down in the housing as practical, then adjust the cables, so that I get full pull out of the throttle, all the way to the stop. Then adjust the return for very little play, I like very little slop in my throttle.
As far as the leak, it's probably the shifter shaft, possibly the transmission pulley. Maybe both.
Probably not too bad yet compared to some...
[attach=0,msg1342317]
Quote from: Hossamania on April 13, 2020, 06:49:24 PM
I'm assuming you're talking about the cable itself bending a bit, not the sheath too. Pretty normal, part of the "play" in throttle adjustment. I try to adjust most of that out. I like to open the top cap on the bar and adjust the "pull" cable as far down in the housing as practical, the adjust the cables, so that I get full pull out of the throttle, all the way to the stop. Then adjust the return for very little play, I like very little slop in my throttle.
As far as the leak, it's probably the shifter shaft, possibly the transmission pulley. Maybe both.
Probably not too bad yet compared to some...
[attach=0,msg1342317]
yes, it is the actual cable bending a little right at the carb. I figured it was from play between the pull and return. I too like my throttle to have very little slop. I didn't pull the cables off the carb when I took everything apart, I just strapped carb and intake to the backbone above the engine. It'd be a good idea to adjust everything. I need to adjust the clutch as well.
As for the leak, it's not bad, but enough to annoy me. So I'm going to fix it, just not sure yet if I want to do it or have someone else mess with it.
Alrighty, I'm at about 575 miles and just changed the oil again. Was going to change it earlier, but I didn't expect to put 300 miles on last weekend. Before I left, I adjusted the clutch, cable, and throttle cables. As well as replaced that pilot air screw and got it happy at around 1.75 turns out, which seems reasonable from what I've read. She's running pretty good, it's a bit too easy to hit 90mph when you wrap up 4th gear. Once I get a few hundred more miles, then I'll start looking into tuning the carb or having it dyno tuned, but of course, I gotta fix that trans leak before it goes on a dyno.
Still got the small trans leak, but I can deal with that for a little while. It leaves a half-dollar sized spot when parked. But it's sunny and 75, so I'm not going to worry about it for now. If more things pop up and she gets down for whatever reason, then I'll change the belt and all those trans and primary seals.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on April 21, 2020, 05:30:24 PM
Alrighty, I'm at about 575 miles and just changed the oil again. Was going to change it earlier, but I didn't expect to put 300 miles on last weekend. Before I left, I adjusted the clutch, cable, and throttle cables. As well as replaced that pilot air screw and got it happy at around 1.75 turns out, which seems reasonable from what I've read. She's running pretty good, it's a bit too easy to hit 90mph when you wrap up 4th gear. Once I get a few hundred more miles, then I'll start looking into tuning the carb or having it dyno tuned, but of course, I gotta fix that trans leak before it goes on a dyno.
Still got the small trans leak, but I can deal with that for a little while. It leaves a half-dollar sized spot when parked. But it's sunny and 75, so I'm not going to worry about it for now. If more things pop up and she gets down for whatever reason, then I'll change the belt and all those trans and primary seals.
:up: nice , enjoy !