HarleyTechTalk

HI everyone,

Do any of you know if there is a longer kicker arm that can be used on my '60?

Reason I ask is that this thing is very hard to kick over to start.  I mean, when I put my 250 lb "lard ass" on the kicker when up on the compression stroke, I need to "bounce" myself a few times just to get the kicker to go down.  there is enough compression to hold me up.  With that, I can't seem to kick it fast enough to start.  I resort to getting my kids out to push start me.  Starts OK, but need to use third gear, as second gear just locks up the rear wheel.

When it does run, it runs very well and strong, to where I hate to shut it off.  It is a FLH, all stock except the 0.010 over bore from the last rebuild.  I bought this a few years ago from an estate, where the bike was in pieces, but the engine was just done.

I have no problem kicking my '53 as it is a whole lot easier and has way less compression.  So, just thinking that maybe a longer kicker arm would do the trick.  Does anyone make one longer than stock?You cannot view this attachment.

Thanks in advance!
- Dave R.
 

I put a longer one on my 88 inch stroker back in 1999, at 175 lbs I did a lot of ineffective jumping.  The one I have is DS-241013 (I think) which can be found in the Dennis Kirk online catalog, click on Parts then Harley then Transmission then Kicker, 133 kicker related options.  It is about one inch longer, thick and heavy, mostly because it is soft steel, the bolt threads that hold the pedal stripped, I recommend blue locktite and not much more than finger tight.  I also made a thin shim to get it to stop flopping around on the kicker shaft.   It measures 10 1/4 inches end to end and 8 1/2 inches from center of kicker shaft to center of pedal.  High quality part from across the water.   Just looking at the catalog they have several others, the 11 inch stainless looks interesting and it will be about as long you can get.

Nice job putting your Pan together, I think I will go and hide mine.   

Thanks Drifter,

So, a longer arm did help making kicking it over easier?  That is, I will be able to kick it through a compression stroke without it just "stopping" in the middle?

Thanks for the reply and the advice on the arm.  I wasn't sure if a longer one even existed.  I was thinking of any option of getting this thing to start easier (or be able to kick it over fast enough to actually start).

- Dave

I used one of these from Drag Specialties on my 80" Pan and my 93" Shovel. Made a difference.
 https://www.jpcycles.com/product/6200225/drag-specialties-heavy-duty-i-beam-kick-arm

Sorry about not getting back sooner, I have been distracted.  The longer arm helps a lot on mine, took it out yesterday.  I still need all my 175 lbs weight to kick it through fast enough to get it's attention, but I am 74 with bad knees and it has pity on me and starts after a few kicks.  It also helps that mine has a long duration overlap Andrews cam and mid 8 to 9 compression ratio.  It doesn't like steady 30 mph in town speed but pulls hard and is happy around 60 mph at 3000 rpm when I pay attention enough to keep it from wandering up to 80 or so on the twisting back roads I like around here.           I like my Pan.      

Thanks for the replies.  I did get a longer "stroker" arm, and tried it yesterday.  While it does help some, that compression stroke still "gets me".  Drifter, you bring up a point that I was contemplating.... Time for something more serious.  I was thinking of changing out the cam from the stock FLH to something with more overlap.  Then I saw your reply, so I think that will be my next (more aggressive) approach.
I have a couple of cams in my "stash" to choose.  One is a Harmon-Collins cam from back in the '70s that has very large durations and steep ramps (has a "106" stamped on it, but is for solid lifters only.  The other one I have is a Sifton 412 (from the early 80's).  I think I will try the 412, but i don't really see much difference from the "H" cam I already have.

Nightrider com has a list of HD camshafts with all the specs, I have some of it printed.  Your spare cams are not listed in my short list.  The cam I use is the Andrews 6 which gets excited from 2500 to 7000+ rpm, it has been in there since 1999.  Their newer version is the 7 which starts at 2000 rpm but I am not going to change to gain the extra at the bottom.  My engine is mostly S&S with T&O heavy flywheels and STD heads, the 1948(?) cases and 1949 heads developed major problems and it was cheaper to replace them since the rest of the engine was already modified.  I'm pretty sure that the lifter blocks are still HD and it is in a 1981 FX  frame with Progressive fork springs and shocks and sticky Avon tires, it is fun to ride on these back roads.

Andrews #6 needs more than stock compression to run as it should. I wouldn't use it in a basically stock Pan Head. The lift for the Pan motor would be 0.535", you need to setup the springs for the cam.

Here are the 412 specs.


You cannot view this attachment.

Thanks Ohio, the compression is where it is so I can kick start it, had bad knees for 60 years, and I didn't need another stationary dust collector.       With the exception of the compression ratio the rest of the engine was set up for the cam, I suspect it would be faster with higher compression but what is the use if I can't start it?  I didn't want to spend the money to install an electric starter since all the previous bikes, except the dirt bikes had them and I always used the kicker.

"but what is the use of I can't start it?"

Sadly, or realistically, the pride of kick-starting may have to be supplanted by electric start in order to keep riding, since riding is the goal. I agree that doing everything possible to keep kicking is a worthy effort, but at some point it may become unworkable.
Best of luck getting it to work, kicking is still cool!

Add mechanical compression releases, and use only one of them. It'll fire on one cylinder easy enough when the compression is bled from the other cylinder. When the cylinder fires, the mechanical release will close. 

Quote from: Ohio HD on June 06, 2022, 09:46:02 AMAdd mechanical compression releases, and use only one of them. It'll fire on one cylinder easy enough when the compression is bled from the other cylinder. When the cylinder fires, the mechanical release will close. 

I was wondering if that would be a viable solution. Good to know it should work.

Here's a solution.
http://techcycle.com/pan-head-electric-start-kit-2/

Some confusion seems to have happened, I am not having problems starting my franken Pan.  I did look into putting electric start on it years ago, at a cost of $1500. +/- plus the hassle of changing parts, different oil tank for the bigger battery etc., not going to happen.  I have noticed the bike gets heavier every year and there will come a time when I may not be comfortable with it so I have planned ahead.  A few years ago I bought a 1978 XLCR framed Sportster with electric start at an estate sale for less than the cost of fitting a starter on the Pan.  I started taking it apart last winter because it hasn't been on the road in 30 years, found dry wheel and neck bearings, wiring issues and other problems you might expect so now that warm weather is here I can turn on the A/C in the bike repair side of the garage and fix it.  I have never ridden or been interested in Sportsters but it is easier to push around the shop so it must be lighter, it is also not stock and a lot of unneeded stuff has already been removed.  If I don't like it in the future I can sell it and find another light bike with electric start, I'm not ready for a wheel chair yet.         

I think some confusion has also happened due to two different conversations going at the same time, Dave's and drifter's.

OK Hoss, I'm gone

Drifter, it's pretty common that conversations drift and the focus gets away from the op query. You were giving good info and feedback on cams, I lost track of who was asking what, that is on me, not you.   

I know this is a bit late. Just an update.  I did replace the cam with the Harmon-Collins one to try it out.  It did help a little bit, so even though it is still a BEAR to kick, at least I can kick through a complete stroke now without having to jump on it a few times to stroke it once.  With that, I can start it now, but it still take about 20-30 kicks to start.

I have a CV carb on this '60, as well as the same CV carb on my '53.  The '53 starts within a kick or two almost every time.  I swapped carbs and the '53 started well, like always, and the '60 still is a bear!

When I put a CV carb on these bikes, I had made an aluminum spacer (1 inch thick) so that the carb would fit and clear the cylinder fins.  these carbs a a bit wider than the linkerts.

on the '53, I pump it a few times to squirt gas into the throat, ane it starts right up.  on the '60, I pump it a few times and seems like it is still not getting enough gas to start.  I have been pumping about 25-30 "squirts" into it, and after about a dozen kicks ot so, it will finally start.  When it runs, it runs really well.  Idles smooth.

My question is to the experts, on the '60, it is angled down a bit due to the air cleaner and top of the carb hitting the origional gas tank.  Since the '53 is a chop and the tank sits higher, and I have the carb/manifold pretty level, if not a bit tilted up.

Before I modify anything, do you think that tilting the carb/manifold level or slightly up would help the starting?  also looking for any advice that I may have missed.

Sorry for the long message, a tend to be "wordy".

Thanks in advance,
- Dave

Having the carb tilted may mess with the level of fuel in the float bowl, and could cause you to starve the idle transfer ports. Maybe try it leveled up without the air cleaner (wear long pants in case it backfires!) and see if it starts any easier. If that helps, make a spacer for the carb or the air cleaner, to allow the carb to sit level with the tank clearance that you need.

Update - I did level out the carb with the air cleaner removed.  It does seem to start better (lot less kicking).  Ran into another issue where it doesn't seem to idle very good without having the enrichener pulled out a bit.  It has always been like this.
So, searching "youtube" I found a few suggestions.  I found that this carb had an aftermarket emulsion tube and jet.  Jet has no markings whatsoever.  The aftermarket emulsion tube is thicker than stock, and only has two small holes near the threads.  The stock one has many holes and is a bit thinner.  Well, that's what I get when shopping at swap meets!!!

So, having a longer stroker kicker arm, a cam with a lot of overlap, and the carb fixed, all seems well for now.  I plan on going back to the FLH cam once I get a few miles on it and it loosens up a bit.

Thanks for all the advice and comments!

-    Dave

To bring this back up. I would like to go the other way, a shorter kick arm. I've had my knees replaced and my range of motion is compromised. I can put my foot on the pedal but I have to lift my leg with my arm. I was thinking  maybe a shorter kicker might be a little better. I'm 245 so getting through compression isn't really an issue, I get bit once in a while but mostly it isn't an issue.

Could be the bike 60'? that starts easier vs. 53' has more properly set ignition timing. 

You said you put the good carb on both bikes and only one is cooperative to start.

My buddies got a stubborn bike I don't bother kicking the damn thing anymore. Its a stock compression Evo but I could kick start my high compression panhead easier and I could barely kick it when it was hot. This stubborn bike I'm speaking of; ain't never had the ignition timing messed with. I thought of you when i read this cuz i put The SAME carb/jetting from the easy start bike to the hard start bike and no improvement.......so it has to be ignition. Both had long drag pipes so thats a wash.