Front cam snap ring orientation?

[Admiral Akbar]

Originally I stayed out of this discussion when it first cam up.. When they bent the snap ring to add kind of like a springy stop, they reversed the which edge should be on the outside.. The original snap rings typically have the sharp edge outside but were flat when the cam was pressed into a ball bearing.. The newer cam plate with plain bushings seem have the sharp edge to the inside.. I think... I put them in the other way without issue.. 

[kd]

Thanks. It seems like concave facing out is what i'm hearing the most.  Just to be clear thought, FSG's pic is showing the convex side out.  It states in his picture that #2 is the concave side and it's facing in towards the support plate.  So is the 2016 and the 2012 (my manual) different?  Am I missing something?

The problem is the diagram shows the snap ring upside down. If you read the instruction and look at the "position 1" you will see that to achieve the clearance the ring will have to be flipped over so the convex portion of the ring position 3 that is 90* from position 1 is supporting the eyes of the clip off of the support plate. The instructions are correct and the diagram is confusing unless you read the instructions correctly.

I was posting when Max responded so what he says about a later design may be the answer to why so many other opinions. Considering some 120R crate engines had this clip pop off, (even before starting the engine) it has been a known issue.

[rbabos]

In FSG's post #10 note the feeler gauge. This is to prevent the tab from being snagged by the thrust washer and possibly flicking the clip off. While a sharp edge is preferred to the outside, tab clearance rules or dictates orientation. The bow is nothing more then to take up a sloppy clearanced groove and as a side benifit offers a spring cushion, which in this app really isn't used.
Ron

[kd]

That makes good sense Ron. 

[Admiral Akbar]

In FSG's post #10 note the feeler gauge. This is to prevent the tab from being snagged by the thrust washer and possibly flicking the clip off. While a sharp edge is preferred to the outside, tab clearance rules or dictates orientation. The bow is nothing more then to take up a sloppy clearanced groove and as a side benifit offers a spring cushion, which in this app really isn't used.
Ron

Not by the thrust washer but by the grove edge..

[mberlin74]

So if I understand correctly, to make sure the tabs are raised enough for the feeler to clear it, the curved retention clip always must be concave side facing out towards the cam cover? And the clip tabs are supposed to be raised to avoid the groove edge from accidentally snagging the tab and opening or even removing the clip? And lastly what groove edge is it that could catch the clip?  I'm looking at my support plate with the cams in it and I don't see a groove edge able to touch the tabs. Are you referring to the inner groove edge of the cam that's closer to the thrust washer?

[Admiral Akbar]

So if I understand correctly, to make sure the tabs are raised enough for the feeler to clear it, the curved retention clip always must be concave side facing out towards the cam cover? And the clip tabs are supposed to be raised to avoid the groove edge from accidentally snagging the tab and opening or even removing the clip? And lastly what groove edge is it that could catch the clip?  I'm looking at my support plate with the cams in it and I don't see a groove edge able to touch the tabs. Are you referring to the inner groove edge of the cam that's closer to the thrust washer?

Actually according to the drawing the concave part is on the inside..
As I see it, it is to guarantee that there is some clearance between the snap ring and the spacer, I think part of it is to ensure that the snap ring is in it's groove and that there is some clearance on the bearing.. With the snap ring installed there is enough bowe that the ends could be out of the grove like this pic..

[attach=0]

This possibly causes undue friction between the clip end, thrust washer and cam plate.. If there is enough to cause galling between the snap ring and the washer, there might be enough friction to grab / miniweld the end of the snapring to the washer and twist it out of the groove.

These are all guesses on my part. As I said, I stayed out of this when it first came up..

[mberlin74]

Thanks MAX.  FSG's pic does show the convex out and concave in which I'll address in a second.  But the mechanic at my local HD said concave out.  You also said the sharp edge is the concave edge and according to almost everyone the sharp side which you've said is the concave side always faces out.  That would also match my manual that says sharp side out.  KD says the image that FSG posted is showing the snap ring upside down (thanks HD for making it soooo very clear  ) also then looking like the concave side faces out.  So unless i'm mistaken I think we're 100% on the fact that the concave side is supposed to face out towards the cam cover.  If I had a gavel i'd make it final.   Concave out it is!

[2006FXDCI]

Just took the cam plate out of a 2012 dyna tonight . Never been touched , snap ring had the convex side facing out .

[mberlin74]

Oh for f@#? Sake!  This is never gonna end!  MAX I see why you wanted to stay out of this the first go round. It sucks to not be 100% confident with such a crucial component. It really should be this complicated.

[Admiral Akbar]

Oh for f@#? Sake!  This is never gonna end!  MAX I see why you wanted to stay out of this the first go round. It sucks to not be 100% confident with such a crucial component. It really should be this complicated.

I do think convex side facing out is correct if using a curved snap ring.. Google up "bowed external snap ring" and all the data sheets I see show the convex side out.. Again this is different than a flat snap ring where the sharp edge should be out..

[koko3052]

So toss a coin & spin the wheel! 

[1FSTRK]

I do think convex side facing out is correct if using a curved snap ring.. Google up "bowed external snap ring" and all the data sheets I see show the convex side out.. Again this is different than a flat snap ring where the sharp edge should be out..

[Hilly13]

They should of bent the other way then everyone would be right 

[Admiral Akbar]

Yeah, I wondered that.. I think that they left the sharp edge on the concave side so that the end of the snap ring couldn't work it's way out.. 

[hogpipes1]

I wasted alot of time looking  as too this way or the other.   Yellow paint dot on clip is what i do before i  remove now. If it kept it together before  should work ok again going back together. MFG. could add a nickle to each ring stamped with a nice  big OUT.

[BUBBIE]

Place the snap ring Between a heavy anvil and two pound hammer...SMAK that hammer with another two pounder and No worry about the Bow... It is Gone...

Then Sharp side Out...

signed....BUBBIE

[mberlin74]

Well I had the day off today and spent a couple of hours calling a number of dealers around the US and Canada.  11 In fact .  Everyone I called was more than happy to help which was cool.  8 techs said Convex side out towards the cover.  2 said Concave side out and one wouldn't comment except to say sharp side out.  Many of them said there's no determinable sharp side to the clips and that they're basically the same.  In 2013 they changed the manual to include the picture (like in FSG's post #10) because they know that the "sharp edge" theory was not working.  Hence this entire thread!    
So as far as I'm concerned CONVEX side out.  It actually makes sense too because when you slide the clip over the cam end and down to the washer, you need to press the clip with a pick or something to force it down and into the groove.  You'd have a much harder time doing that if you put the clip on concave side out.  Convex side out in my opinion is the way to go and is in line with the "newer" manuals.

[98fxstc]

Well I had the day off today and spent a couple of hours calling a number of dealers around the US and Canada.  11 In fact .  Everyone I called was more than happy to help which was cool.  8 techs said Convex side out towards the cover.  2 said Concave side out and one wouldn't comment except to say sharp side out.  Many of them said there's no determinable sharp side to the clips and that they're basically the same.  In 2013 they changed the manual to include the picture (like in FSG's post #10) because they know that the "sharp edge" theory was not working.  Hence this entire thread!    
So as far as I'm concerned CONVEX side out.  It actually makes sense too because when you slide the clip over the cam end and down to the washer, you need to press the clip with a pick or something to force it down and into the groove.  You'd have a much harder time doing that if you put the clip on concave side out.  Convex side out in my opinion is the way to go and is in line with the "newer" manuals.

often the harder a part is to get into place , the harder it is coming out and is more likely to stay there 

[FSG]

are we having fun yet   

grooves cut for bowed snap rings should be wider than grooves cut for flat snap rings, the extra width is to accommodate the bow width/height of the ring

are the grooves in the late cams, both OEM and Aftermarket, wider than the early cams, I don't know I've never measured them

The pic is correct and the concave side faces the spacer and with reference to the note, When correctly installed, ears (1) of retaining ring are raised slightly, allowing the feeler gauge blade to pass between the ears and spacer, remember that feeler gauge is only 0.0015" and if the retaining ring is incorrectly installed you could use a spark plug gap checker.

Anyone remember this thread =>  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=53301.0