86 FXR. New battery fully charge, hit the starter button and it has a hard time turning over the engine. It does have 10.5 compression. Started relay has been replaced, starter solenoid has also. Anyone experience this and know a fix?
When the starter stalls out let off the button so the crank rolls back then hit the button again, always worked good with my stock compression EVO.
Have compression releases?
Unfortunately no compression releases.
Is this a new build or just a problem that popped up?
Firstly I would make sure of all very good connections. I always sand under each connection & use star washers to make positive that everything is connecting. After tightening down I either spray paint the connection or smear dielectric grease on it. I run a ground wire directly from battery to starter also of a heavy gauge.
Other than that, rock the engine as guppymech suggested & think about comp. releases.
Quote from: FRANKIE THE FINGER on December 31, 2018, 06:26:02 PM
86 FXR. New battery fully charge, hit the starter button and it has a hard time turning over the engine. It does have 10.5 compression. Started relay has been replaced, starter solenoid has also. Anyone experience this and know a fix?
That spec of 10.5 compression doesn't mean anything without a cam spec, and even then someone has to do the math to convert it into cranking pressure.
Look at the timing, particularly initial timing.
Measure the voltage at the battery when cranking.
Also try cranking with the coil disconnected to see if any difference.
What kind of battery?
What size battery cables?
What ignition system?
Does temp make a difference?
Hitachi starters aren't the most powerful but pretty reliable.
Even stock acted like this, either quick release button and hit again or thro in higher gear and pull back on bike to back-up motor.
You could try installing a direct button on the end of the starter, that would eliminate the wiring through the button and relay. It might give you a better idea if that is the problem, or if the starter itself is dragging.
I am experiencing the same issue.
85 FXR with Edelbrock top end kit(10.5:1 pistons), S&S carb and Redshift 559 cam(installed about 3 years ago). I've had the bike for about 15 years and have had only minor starting issues until about a year and a half ago, when I started having cranking issues. Installed a fresh battery. That helped for a few trips, then the stock starter just couldn't make it past the first compression. Replaced both starter relay and solenoid, still no go. I broke down and popped for an All Balls starter. Still no go. Bought a new hot whammy lithium ion battery, still no good. I am now swapping out the battery cables to 4 guage and taking the relay out of the high current path(going to use it for the start circuit only). The old cables were not in the best of shape, so hopefully the new cables will correct the problem. Comp releases don't really seem to be an option on the Edelbrock heads without some serious modifications. Any other suggestions?
I don't ride the bike often since it is a second bike, but it would be nice if it would fire up when I wanted it to!
Quote from: Heatseeker on January 06, 2019, 08:43:41 AM
I am experiencing the same issue.
85 FXR with Edelbrock top end kit(10.5:1 pistons), S&S carb and Redshift 559 cam(installed about 3 years ago). I've had the bike for about 15 years and have had only minor starting issues until about a year and a half ago, when I started having cranking issues. Installed a fresh battery. That helped for a few trips, then the stock starter just couldn't make it past the first compression. Replaced both starter relay and solenoid, still no go. I broke down and popped for an All Balls starter. Still no go. Bought a new hot whammy lithium ion battery, still no good. I am now swapping out the battery cables to 4 guage and taking the relay out of the high current path(going to use it for the start circuit only). The old cables were not in the best of shape, so hopefully the new cables will correct the problem. Comp releases don't really seem to be an option on the Edelbrock heads without some serious modifications. Any other suggestions?
I don't ride the bike often since it is a second bike, but it would be nice if it would fire up when I wanted it to!
Coutless heads from Edelbrock have had compression releases installed in them. Its the same process and tooling used on any other evo or TC head. Not major at all.
my 83 FXR did that when I bought it , All Balls starter and double welding cable grounds and it spun like the plugs were out
Ignition systems that don't have a starter saver in them often will buck the starter on the first cylinder that comes up.
Some ignitions run in race mode (no VOES) do not retard the spark enough at cranking speed and will buck the starter.
Quote from: Burnout on January 06, 2019, 08:21:25 PM
Ignition systems that don't have a starter saver in them often will buck the starter on the first cylinder that comes up.
Some ignitions run in race mode (no VOES) do not retard the spark enough at cranking speed and will buck the starter.
But, what is causing these to work fine for years, and then start having problems when nothing has been changed? What has failed to cause the starting problems? It was not caused by a new race ignition or the elimination of the voes.
A voltage drop test across the battery cables should provide a clue.
With a fully charged and load tested battery?
If that is all good that leaves the starter motor and the motor itself.
My 87 has always bucked the starter on hot starts, but it has never not started.
Factory Police ignition module does not have a starter saver.
It's never crunched more than once, and occasionally delivers a proper exhaust report to keep the citizens on their toes!
Quote from: turboprop on January 06, 2019, 02:04:01 PM
Coutless heads from Edelbrock have had compression releases installed in them. Its the same process and tooling used on any other evo or TC head. Not major at all.
Can you point me to a source for exact placement? My google fu has failed me in my past searches.
Quote from: hbkeith on January 06, 2019, 03:14:25 PM
my 83 FXR did that when I bought it , All Balls starter and double welding cable grounds and it spun like the plugs were out
I am installing 2 gauge welding cable over the next few days. Keeping my fingers crossed for some free spinning cranking!
I have a 92 FLHTCU that won't crank when it's cold, but will when it's hot. Probably a Oil drag issue along with a poor connection somewhere. I tried to track it down but went ahead and put a button on the starter. Just have to lean over and push it in. Fires right up. Maybe one day I'll track the issue down, but I think it may take days to tracking wires to figure out which one is weak.
Rather ride than wrench all the time, already have too many hours getting this thing running...... :SM:
The connections at the ignition switch often get corroded, especially on the dash mounted switches, but all the power runs through those things, so that is a point of failure. And, of course, the handlebar switch itself.
The push button on the end of the starter removes all those from the equation, and will narrow the problem down to the basics, battery cables, battery, starter, drive.
Well, good conversation. The ignition switch is a bad actor as far as voltage drop goes. Check that out. I replaced the power wire to from the ignition switch to the relay after building a solenoid test set up. Fixed up the old '84....Like many have already said, check all of the grounds.
for me id want the problem fixed
Like I said, fixed the issue. The OEM wire had too much resistance and was dropping volts.
>>>>>>>
Quote from: FRANKIE THE FINGER on December 31, 2018, 06:26:02 PM
86 FXR. New battery fully charge, hit the starter button and it has a hard time turning over the engine. It does have 10.5 compression. Started relay has been replaced, starter solenoid has also. Anyone experience this and know a fix?
Way too much peripheral noise in this thread. Have you identified or solved the problem?
I would like to now if you solved the problem.i've been followind this thread
Update:
I finally found the time to work on my FXR last week. My issue has been mostly resolved by 1) changing to larger battery cables(from 6ga. to 4ga) and 2) changing the way the cables get to the starter and solenoid. My bike has a separate relay under the side cover that the positive cable ran through prior to continuing to the separate from the starter solenoid. That relay gets the start signal from the starter switch on the bars. Instead of running the cable through it, I ran the cable straight to the solenoid. I ran a 10ga. wire from the battery to the relay and from the relay to the start terminal on the solenoid.
I still get a starter buck on the first compression stroke, but after that, she cranks freely. I was able to take the bike for a ride Saturday for the first time in months. I forgot how fun it was to ride!
Thanks for all the input on this thread. It inspired me to get after this problem and finally(mostly) resolve it.
:up: :up:
You might want to check the ground strap. Clean all connections in a larger ground strap as well. Not all started are created equal, some are really strong but draw a lot.
John
Quote from: Hossamania on January 02, 2019, 11:44:49 AM
You could try installing a direct button on the end of the starter, that would eliminate the wiring through the button and relay. It might give you a better idea if that is the problem, or if the starter itself is dragging.
i agree. it would eliminate a few theories
Quote from: Heatseeker on January 21, 2019, 08:32:55 AM
Update:
My issue has been mostly resolved
I still get a starter buck on the first compression stroke, but after that, she cranks freely.
I was able to take the bike for a ride Saturday for the first time in months. I forgot how fun it was to ride!
Seems like all the old style starters do this, my 87, and the two shovelheads, I have right now all do the same.
I think it is because when they shut off they most of the time they bump back from the next compression stroke as it stops.
Quote from: david lee on February 14, 2019, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 02, 2019, 11:44:49 AM
You could try installing a direct button on the end of the starter, that would eliminate the wiring through the button and relay. It might give you a better idea if that is the problem, or if the starter itself is dragging.
i agree. it would eliminate a few theories
'88 was last year of the external bendix starters. No button. I/we used a 1/2 or 9/16ths box end wrench to bridge the pull solenoid and +12 pole on the bendix. These old starters have much less mechanical advantage than the Mitsubishi type. Engines had less cranking compression too... Nice spark show though
I most always get a kick back on the old girl when she's warm. i've taken to just bumping the starter and if it starts fine, if it kicks back, that's fine too because the next hit she'll fire right off.
All of my other starting issues were solved by adding a relay that ran voltage from the battery straight to the solenoid.
my local indy( RIP Mike!) had a recurring problem with one and the added relay cured the problem with that one too.