Cracked!

[JW113]

I guess I was on Santa's naughty list.


It started off as little project to send the flywheels to Darkhorse so they could balance them for me. This '92 Softail is one of the more viby evos that I've been on so what the heck, fix it, right? After getting it down to the crankcase, I found my lump of coal:

[attach=0]

So now I guess I have some decisions to make. Fix it cheap with some stock replacement Ultima cases? Spend more for S&S? Bump it up to 96 cubes? Whole new crate motor? We don't get snow around here, but clearly the snowball is a-rollin' down hill. Not how I wanted to start the new year that's for sure!

-JW

[Deye76]

Ouch. New cases, and a Darkhorse bottom you know it's right. Might consider leaving it stock stroke, have the heads ported.

[wfolarry]

The Ultima cases are nice.

[Pete_Vit]

ouch is right  sorry JW 

[rigidthumper]

They say bad luck is always followed by good. Maybe it's time to buy a powerball ticket?
+1 on the Ultima cases. Ask Phil about pricing?

[JW113]

So I have given it some thought. If I weight what is the most important virtue I want from this bike, it's smoothness at cruising speed. I don't need it to be a hot rod, already have two of those. Therefore, will just replace the cases with a set of Ultimas and be done with it.

I think I figured out the story of why this happened. Set aside the part that this year of HD cases were known for this very thing, when I pulled the top end off last winter to fix leaky base gaskets, they were not cracked. When I put it back together I used Cometic head gaskets and followed their tightening recommendation of 42 ft-lbs. Then on top of that, I rode the thing up to Sacramento on a hotter than hell day, and pulled a cylinder stud. Being the fool, I didn't inspect the cases for cracks then, but I'm guessing the high torqued head bolts and hot engine cracked the cases in that weak area. This explains why I've had a bit of a oil weep around the tappet blocks for a while now.

It's all good, all fixable, and will simply pull me pants up like a big boy and deal with it.

-JW

[tmwmoose]

The Ultima cases are nice.

[turboprop]

There is another option, source another right side case half. I know. I too would get a new set of aftermarket cases, but would also get another right side case while the getting is good and keep that matching numbers case in the box that the aftermarket cases came in. Never know. I know the guys with pan heads in the 50's and 60's never thought those old bikes would be worth anything with matching numbers.

[Breeze]

I admire your trouble shooting process.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

92-94 +/-, were prone to that.
Never a fun find.

[JW113]

Yes, another right side case would be nice to have just for grins. I don't know how well they "drop in", or if some align honing & spiggot facing would need to be done.

Another option would be to get the stock case welded. We have a guy here local that's as good as they come with a TIG.

-JW

[wfolarry]

You can't weld that crack. You would have to break it off & build up a new one tig welding it. Then Machine it

[JW113]

Yes you're probably right.

Question on the Ultima cases though. This bike is a 1992 case breather. Ultima has two options, 84-91 and 92+. They don't give any details about what the difference is, but I'm going to guess case breather or head breather. S&S has only one type 84-99 and can be configured either way.

-JW

[turboprop]

Yes you're probably right.

Question on the Ultima cases though. This bike is a 1992 case breather. Ultima has two options, 84-91 and 92+. They don't give any details about what the difference is, but I'm going to guess case breather or head breather. S&S has only one type 84-99 and can be configured either way.

-JW

Look at the oil pump bolt patterns.

[72fl]

JW i'm guessin' the first word out of your mouth wasn't Shucks. Man that is a tough call, how many miles was on it ? Will that sway your decision possibly ? Good Luck JW, just remember it happened in 2018 and I'm telling you it can't get out of here fast enough.

[JW113]

Bingo Turbo. Exactly the case with the oil pump mounting. Thanks!

72FL, yes a little stronger language than shucks, but compared to my typical vernacular, the exclamation was borderline "polite".


This mill has about 37K stock miles on it. Like I posted earlier, I think this was possibly self inflicted or at least helped along by too much head nut torque and heat. To me this could not have happened at a better time. It's "winter", was tearing down the motor in my garage anyway, and with a few more bucks thown at it will be a much more dependable machine. Sure am happy this was not out in the middle of Death Valley!

-JW

[JW113]

Well DAMN. All back together, new Ultima cases, and Darkhorse blueprinted/balanced flywheels. Did all the final touches and preped to start it. Last thing before live ignition was to spin it over and get the oil pressure up. Which, unfortunately IT DIDN'T.

Have checked and double checked all the obvious stuff. Lines routed correctly, oil flowing out of feed line, removed plunger and tappet screen plugs, oil rising out of those. I was suspicuous of the oil pressure sender, a new one that came with the cases. Removed it, spun the motor, got a quick "plop" of oil out hole then nothing. So it's not getting oil to that passage. Actually I need to go read TFM, can't remember if that passage gets no pressure until the plunger lifts up.

I have not pulled the check valve plug yet, as it involves removing the case vent fitting but will do that tomorrow.

The one thing that I'm not 100% clear on, will a stock HD oil pump work with an Ultima crankcase? The bike is '92, and the cases I ordered were for 92-99. So it should be OK, right?

Anything I missed or should try again?

-JW

[turboprop]

Are all of the plugs back in when the engine is spinning and you are looking for oil at the port for the sender?

The design of the shovel/evo oil pump will sometimes allow a sort of 'bubble lock' like what you describe. I used to have a fixture that allowed oil to be pumped through the oil pump into the lifters and pinion shaft. Was one of the last checks I did before dropping the cylinders on. Also had a fixture that allowed oil to be pumped backwards into the oil pump. Doing this from the input and output sides was like 'bench bleeding'. You could probably rig something up with a small pressurized tank of oil. I would simply hook a good gauge up to that pressure port and fire that engine with my hand on the kill button. and eyes on the gauge.

[david lee]

id never weld a case even by an expert

[Mule]

Go to the vintage harley and Indian races sometime, go to the pits and check out the cases on those old racers, a lot of them have been welded back together...

[JW113]

Are all of the plugs back in when the engine is spinning and you are looking for oil at the port for the sender?

Yes.

"hook a good gauge up to that pressure port and fire that engine with my hand on the kill button. and eyes on the gauge."

Exactly my plan after pulling the check ball plug. Hopefully some good news this moring. Else pull the oil pump and make sure all the keys are in the gears.


-JW

[Hybredhog]

    On a fresh build or oil pump R&R, I take out the allen pipe plug on the outer pump cover, it where they use to mount the pressure switch. Its path is after the feed gears & before the check ball & if you dump a quart of oil in  the tank it'll eventually seep out that hole while your doing other stuff, then you know the pump is primed. On EVO Dyna's you can use a vacuum pump to create suction to that same hole.

[JW113]

I've pretty much exhausted everything I can think of, including taking the pump cover off and seeing that the gears turn when the starter is cranked. There is oil oozing out from every plug, so clearly oil is getting to the pump. I fired it up breifly, no pressure on the gauge and tappets clacking away. About the only thing that I can figure is the oil is getting bypassed somehow. Guess it's time to contact Ultima and find out if there is something I should know about their replacement crankcases.

-JW

[Scotty]

You do know that the bottom breather part of the Ultima case is blocked off and they recommend to go to a top breather.
The rocker covers changed and you need 93 up rocker covers to be a top breather.
Can the Ultima cases be modified? Don't know.
With S&S cases you can use either but not with Ultima unless you buy the 84-91 cases and use an earlier oil pump.
92 was a prick of a year with the new wider oil pump but still a bottom breather for 90% of the production year.

From the S&S website
The head breather system requires 1993 and newer rocker boxes and heads.
Something else to keep in mind all S&S EVO style crankcases are capable of breathing out the lower end (when the 92 and earlier cam cover is used) which gives you more breathing options. You can breath out the top, bottom, or both.

From Ultima
note (1)Ultima® engines are supplied with 92/L breathers operating but the early 84/91 system is present but plugged.**
All Ultima® engines are designed to use 1993 & later style PCV systems (Rocker Boxes). Proper installation and free operation of the Cylinder Head Vent lines are very important to your engine's oiling system and overall performance. We recommend using only this late style breather system and not opening the lower case breathers, which come plugged from the factory.

[Burnout]

Pictures of the pump and lines?

[Deye76]

My 92' breathes through the crankcase, but had the head breather rocker covers, just didn't have the flapper valves or breather bolts.

[Scotty]

My 92' breathes through the crankcase, but had the head breather rocker covers, just didn't have the flapper valves or breather bolts.

That is correct and a lot came like that and some of the early ones had the early rocker box covers and the later ones didn't.
Some of the late ones had the later cam cover and vented through the heads and a lot didn't.
You need to check a 92 carefully as you put it together to make sure everything matches.

[14Frisco]

You need to check a 92 carefully as you put it together to make sure everything matches.

Including the cam cover gasket (25225-70C vs 25225-93B)

[JW113]

As requested:
[attach=0]

@Scotty: This Ultima case does have a port for a case breather, and indeed it came with a 1/8" NPT plug in it, which I removed and fitted with hose fitting. This port/hole goes into the cam chest area just like a stock case.

As Deye said, this '92 came with the later style rocker boxes, and even included the rubber breather valves! What it doesn't have is heads drilled for the breather port outlets.

In thinking this problem over, I'm looking at what changed from before to now:
- Crankcase
- Oil pump gaskets
- Nose cone gasket

I think if there is anything wrong with the nose cone gasket, oil would still get to the tappets, just not to the pinion shaft. Correct? So perhaps the oil pump gasket is wrong, and blocking the oil outlet from the pump? OR, the Ultima case has the oil pump outlet hole located different from the pump? I think I'll bop down to the HD dealer and get a set of oil pump gaskets, and wait for Ultima to reply to my email.

-JW

[cheech]

Did you try and remove the plug like Jeffscycle suggested? I had the same issue on a oil pump reinstallation, not new cases or what not.
I ended up packing whole gear cavity with grease, bolted cover back on and voila it developed pressure. And like yours, it was a case breathing bike and the vent fitting from cam cavity makes it hard to remove checkball.
I think oil flowing out of feed line is misleading because a air pocket can not escape once the cover is bolted back on because of the checkball.
Which doesn't allow pressure to raise checkball.
Anyway best of luck.

[JW113]

Yep, tried it all. Oil flows from every plug. I'm not sure what you mean by oil flowing out the feed line is misleading. I'm talking about a cup or more all over the garage floor until I got a plug in it! I'm pretty certain oil is getting from tank to pump.

I never heard back from Jireh/Ultima/Midwest. I am finding out first hand what a lot of you were saying about their tech support, or lack thereof. Seemingly impossible to talk to anyone other than the sales lady at Jireh, who sent me to "Ben's" voice mail, and who never called back. All I wanted to know is if there is any sort of incompatibility with their engine case and a stock oil pump.

Hell with it. This weekend I'll pull the oil pump, and check out that all the passages line up with the case, and that the gasket holes are all clear. Will pull all the plugs and manually pump oil in the oil pump output hole in the case and make sure it's coming out where it's supposed to. Has to be something stupid/obvious.

-JW

[cheech]

Yep, tried it all. Oil flows from every plug. I'm not sure what you mean by oil flowing out the feed line is misleading. 
-JW

I just meant if the line is off of fitting and gets put on the fitting, air gets trapped inside the gear cavity. One might think oh its primed, but the air is trapped inside the cavity.
But as you said you removed the plug.

Has to be something stupid/obvious. Always usually is and makes ya go duh. 

Btw, you spinning it with starter without plugs in to develop oil pressure?

[JW113]

"Btw, you spinning it with starter without plugs in to develop oil pressure?"

Yep. So much so that I am worried about how many times those pistons & rings have gone up/down with next to no lubrication. I also fired it up for a few seconds. Nada. After I check out the pump and case, and IF it all checks out, will give the cylinders a squirt of oil in the spark plug holes before turning it over any more.

-JW

[Hybredhog]

  On fresh rebuilds I like to dump a 1/2 qt. or so in the crank before I bolt on the cylinders just in case something like this happens, everything gets a good splash. Have you tried starting it with the pressure switch out, or check ball? With the check ball out, seal up around an air dart & pressurize the tank, oil should flow out the check ball hole. I generally use light cheap 10/40 for the initial fire ups, and dump it after a few heat cycles.

[turboprop]

  On fresh rebuilds I like to dump a 1/2 qt. or so in the crank before I bolt on the cylinders just in case something like this happens, everything gets a good splash. Have you tried starting it with the pressure switch out, or check ball? With the check ball out, seal up around an air dart & pressurize the tank, oil should flow out the check ball hole. I generally use light cheap 10/40 for the initial fire ups, and dump it after a few heat cycles.

Not too late to do this. Use the hole for the timing plug.

[JW113]

Yep, indeed do that. But if the scavenge side is working, probably pulled that out by now. I spun it quite a bit on the starter. I'll sneek some more down into the crankcase at some point. Interesting point about pressurising the oil tank, might give that a try.

I have pump off now and am about to start squiring oil into the case at the oil pump holes. I took the tappet screen out, something looks kind of odd at that passage near the top, that I think connects over to the tappet block area. Need to dig out the stock case and see what that looks like.

-JW

[JW113]

Are you ready for this?

As I had claimed earlier, the only thing different between before and now was the cases and a couple gaskets. I lied. Or rather, forgot one thing.

I pulled the oil pump and went through EVERYTHING. I squirted oil through every passage available, oil flowing out everywhere. Spent an hour trying to get that damn outer oil pump gear on the shaft without knocking the key out of it's groove. Another 20 minutes trying to get that damn C clip on the shaft. What a PITA. Why they hell did they not use a snap ring?

I was just about to put the cover on, when I decided to make sure oil was coming through the fitting and into the pump. I mean, why would it not? But I wanted to be thorough. I gave it a quick blow, and... nothing. Pluged up tighter than my colon the morning after eating a pound of cheeze. I put the air nozzel on it, and air was barely hissing though. Hmm....

So the thing I lied about. The stock pump had a straight 3/8" hose fitting on it. That makes the oil line routing suck, points straight into the transmission. So I swapped it for a 90deg fitting. I took it out of the pump cover, blew into the hole, and open as could be. Same with the fitting itself, wide open no blockage. I spun it back in and tried again, pluged up tight. WTF???

I took it out, looked carefully in the hole, and could see witness marks inside where the end of the fitting was pushing up against the inside wall of the cover! The fitting was going in too far, hitting the wall, and blocking the hole in the fitting like a water valve!

I filed the threads on the fitting back to about 1/4", wrapped lots of teflon tape around it, and spun it back in. Air flowing like the Mississippi in spring time. Yay!!

I put everything back on, and hit the starter. After a couple seconds it fired up, and oil light went out. Yay!!! I have a huge oily Exxon Valdez like mess to clean up tomorrow morning, but after that, will fire it up and take for a spin. Hopefully all is well and it's back in action.

-JW

[kd]

Good catch JW.   Very unusual situation for sure.

[david lee]

the reason i hate welding cracks is yrs ago i had an inner primary crack going outwards just back from the front top mounting bolt and was seeping oil had it welded by a so called expert and as soon as i started it it cracked again.i was so pissed of i smashed it to pieced and dumped it at the welders front door