HarleyTechTalk

Well does it?

Mine did... The biggest issue was a vagueness at high speed.. Hit a bump and you'd get a wallow that was pretty upsetting.. Handled OK at slower speeds but felt a little like over steer..

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30563.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,30563.0.html)

Anyway, tire pressure, tire wear, alignment, still need to do fall away (forgot about that one   :embarrassed:).
Front tire is a tired (pun?) out Dumbflop.. Even with 11K on it, wear looks good.. It will eventually get replaced with a better tire..

I put the bike on the lift and using a scissor jack, lifted the rear wheel up until the tire no longer touched the platform. I attached a back reading dial indicator to the frame and with an extension resting on the swingarm shaft.

I was able to read 0.030 axial movement  (notice I didn't say lateral) by pulling the wheel one way by hand, then using a spoon type pry bar and rag, I forced the swing arm the other. Sucker was loose. Only got about 0.005 on the RKC..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/wr1.jpg)

I pulled the left rear fork bracket.. The first thing that I noticed is the it's not as nice as the ones on the 02 RKC. Part number is brand new for this year.. The area that holds the rubber donut is not flat but rounded, allowing the part to dig into the rubber until it hit metal..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/wr2.jpg)

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/wr3.jpg)
 

I zipped of the swingarm nut with an impact wrench then pulled the donut..


(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/wr4.jpg)

After searching my sheet metal stack, I found some brushed stainless that was 0.035 thick and drilled a 5/8 hole in it using a hand drill and a unibit. I placed a 5/8 washer over the top and drew a circle around the outside.. With a shear I cut the along the circle with multiple straight cuts then ran it over to the belt sander to to make it round (well sorta  :wink:)

Here are the parts as they go together..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/wr5.jpg)

Put the shim on first,

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/wr6.jpg)


donut, washer and nut but leave loose. Put the bracket back on and align the nub on the bracket with donut, bracket bolt and tighten until snug.. Tighten the swing arm shaft and torque the bracket bolt.. Used blue LT BTW.. 

Done.. Even a caveman can do it.. Total cost.. For me nothing,, Looks like I saved about $440 bucks..



Max

Fwiw,

It's not perfect but it's 10 times better than it was.. Sweepers at 80 with bumps still get me a little shake.. The frequency of the shake is much higher telling me that I tighten up one thing the was way loose.. In fact the hinge seems to have moved toward the front wheel.. Fall away and tire next but I may tweek the suspension.. It's set up way too stiff.. Possibly to try and stop the wobble.. Bike is much more fun to ride..

Max

Thanks Max, I'm installing new doughnuts on this Street Glide I'm working on now and as soon as I get it together, I'll put the dial indicator on it. Then I'll check alignment again and top stabilizer. This bike does seem looser than most.

I'd bet the new donuts help until the brackets have a change to dig into the rubber.. If the old ones look good, I'd try this first.. If set on the newer donuts then if it should come back check axial swing are movement again.. Max

Nice find MAX i will be checking mine tonight.   Thanks  HEAVY

I have had Sta-Bo's on my last 2 dressers 99 & 01.
(BTW- I have changed both rear forks to 02or up with  1" axle etc
Just ream out trans rear to 3/4" for new pivot shaft.
Then install the Sta-Bo's.($102)-)
No complaints here.
I have never ridden a bike with True-Trac etc so I don't know how much or if it would make a difference
JMHO

ALSO Although I have ridden camels I have never ridden a drunken camel in a sand storm, so maybe my post is off topic

Nice stuff Max!

BTW,

I screwed up.. I should have rechecked the axial movement.. Maybe tonight..

Also this is not a cure for problems like loose swingarm bearings, fork bearings, bad tires, low pressure, bad shocks, etc.. It just another item that should be checked to improve the riding experience.. Unless of course you are trying to convince the ol' lady you need a new bike..  :wink:  Max

Good post, Max

Almost like a "limiter" used on front mounts, which will reduce movement, but drastically increase vibraton. Why I asked about vibration and the GP stuff. Being this shim is much thinner than the limiter used on front mounts, vibration may be less.

Quote from: Deye76 on October 13, 2010, 07:32:16 AM
Almost like a "limiter" used on front mounts, which will reduce movement, but drastically increase vibraton. Why I asked about vibration and the GP stuff. Being this shim is much thinner than the limiter used on front mounts, vibration may be less.

Fwiw it's not.. It would be more like shorting the metallic spacer on the front mount and tightening up the rubber which is what it does.. Now the reason for the dial indicator is to remove the axial play without increasing compression on donuts too much and allowing them to still float radialy.  This should keep vibration from going up too much.  In my case I didn't notice any increase..  I could have used a thicker shim and it probably have increased vibration.. The idea was to remove the slack without increasing vibration.. Still the stuff you try to make rubber mounts, the greater chance for more vibes..  In other words, set it up the way it's supposed to be set up.

Max

Nice Max-
Interested in the axial movement measurement after the mod...
Wonder if a dampner (with a better tire) on the front would improve front shake?

Bruce, your thoughts on the sta-bo bushings?? Maybe in addition?

Bruce,
Damn good info right there! :up:
Scott

Quote from: Hillsidecyclecom on October 13, 2010, 10:02:35 AM
Bruce,
Damn good info right there! :up:
Scott

I second that remark!!  :up:
I've always maintained to fix the problem rather than bandaid it with add-on do-dads.  :wink:
Bob

I like Donuts, :smilep:

Al Gore invented the Donut.  (In case you were wondering) :bike:

I don't know I haven't ridden my camel in a sand storm......

what part of the camel should I be shimming???
and why will he be eating donuts...

Quote from: FLTRI on October 13, 2010, 12:05:27 PM

Quote from: Hillsidecyclecom on October 13, 2010, 10:02:35 AM
Bruce,
Damn good info right there! :up:
Scott

I second that remark!!  :up:
I've always maintained to fix the problem rather than bandaid it with add-on do-dads.  :wink:
Bob

Nice fix there Max....
Dan

did you brick the camel first to ensure he took on a full load   :wink:

New donuts? How many miles on them?

"I was able to read 0.030 axial movement"
What does the factory say this value should be? 

Quote from: Deye76 on October 13, 2010, 05:14:40 PM
New donuts? How many miles on them?

"I was able to read 0.030 axial movement"
What does the factory say this value should be?

Nope,, Bike has about 11K..

Well, I looked through the manual and could find it so figured I'd call Willy and ask..

Willy: "  Hello?"

Max: " Hey Willly, it's Max. "

Willy: "WTF? How did you get my number?!?!:"

Max: "I got it from Juicy Lucy at the Broken Spoke"

Willy: "WTF? How did she get my number?!?!:"

Max: "She said something about getting it in the girls bathroon"

Willy "Oh "Potty mouth", WTF do you want?"

Max: "I need the axial play for the swing arm on a 07 Electra Glide"

Willy: "Well if you I tell you, I'll have to kill you.. "

Max: "Naw that's OK. Later..."

I check the axial play now and it set to about 0.007"

Max

>It's not perfect but it's 10 times better than it was..
> Sweepers at 80 with bumps still get me a little shake..

Applause on the effort, and great info. But.... from your description, it don't sound
"fixed" to me. Your "after" sounds like my "before". Have to say my RK now is in the
'perfect' category. ZERO wallow or shake. Call me crazy, call me a fool, but still very
happy with the Glide Pro.

But hey, if you're happy, I'm happy!

-JW

Agree with JW,  I went with the Sta-bo on two bike with updated swing arms, one of them being mine,  neither bike wallows on high speed and both are ridden hard with confidence,   we have one off ramp here that is a guarantee to make your bike feel hinged and both bike did wallow on that ramp that has a 50 mph posted speed,  now both bike can be riden in confidence thru that ramp at 75 mph.

Well I ain't calling anyone crazy or a fool.. but maybe you need to try my test sweeper..  :teeth:...

Anyway the purpose of this is not to put down Glide Pro but to see what other options are available.. You running an old 402 on front?  I still need to go through the setting up the steering bearings..

Max

Quote from: JohnCA58 on October 13, 2010, 10:00:38 PM
Agree with JW,  I went with the Sta-bo on two bike with updated swing arms, one of them being mine,  neither bike wallows on high speed and both are ridden hard with confidence,   we have one off ramp here that is a guarantee to make your bike feel hinged and both bike did wallow on that ramp that has a 50 mph posted speed,  now both bike can be riden in confidence thru that ramp at 75 mph.

Well the sweeper I got is marked 45 and I'm doing it at 80-90   :smilep:  Max

my sweeper is faster than yours   :soda:

bud is on his second replaced tire on the moco's dime for the same problem it was the front tire both times.

the rear is wearing very flat and looks like it is going to cause a problem also it is on a 2010 ultra with everything stock

Quotemy sweeper is faster than yours   :soda:

Can you tell, I'm having fun with that?   :wink:  Max

Yes, stock Dunlops on front & rear. Currently, both are about 50% worn? The rear is just
starting to get that squared off look, am looking forward to throwing a new set of 'em on
to see if things get even better. I've tried the other brands, always come back to Dunlop.
They all (Dunlops included) seem to have little "personality" quirks, I just I'm just so used
to Dunlop that I can overlook those the easiest.

The problem with my sweepers, is that I ride them every day, most are marked 50, and
are two or three lanes wide. The "good" ones have a diamond (commute) lane, which lucky
little me gets to use, and is usually all to myself. Doing 80 or so, next to a lane or two
of cars going between 0 and 60, makes wobbles and wiggles a bit of a concern. Not to
mention, the freeways out here in San Jose are just plain $hit. Heard on the radio a few
times, rated worst in the nation. Come on transportation bill!!!

-JW

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on October 13, 2010, 10:02:28 PM
Well I ain't calling anyone crazy or a fool..

Max

so your trying to reform?   :dgust:

:hyst:

Quote from: mayor on October 14, 2010, 08:08:36 AM

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on October 13, 2010, 10:02:28 PM
Well I ain't calling anyone crazy or a fool..

Max

so your trying to reform?   :dgust:

:hyst:

Well I was ... Fool..  :teeth:

JW thanks for the additional info.. I would say that the mod does take care of sweepers for the wider ramps just fine.. My two test corners have some pretty stout step bumps.. Both are sweepers with sweeping bridges in the middle of the curve.. that have steps at the entrance and exit.. You get to experience both a pretty good step up and step down.. and see what happens when the suspension compresses while cornering and drops while cornering. As Dan says some wobbles are rider induced, and with these steps it's not hard to induce a short wallow on pretty much any bike.. Looking at how the bike recovers is important.. 

Anyway this is discussion is not to dis glide pro but look at root causes and possible solutions.. Too many have seen improvements to say that the product is not a good solution..  I'm just trying to find root cause and a possible solutions..

Max

Willy gave the numbers to me.
He said who the heck is max?
I said he's a guy with a couple dial indicators.
He said don't need 'em, at every 11k replace the donuts and go.
He also said if ya don't like that, go to h#ll and buy some aftermarket stuff. We don't build 'em to last, we want you buy a new bike every year. 
I said I'll relay message.
Done.

 :smile:

Max

Max, I think the investigation you did is awesome, in that it gives an explanation as to why some stock bikes handle so
much better or worse than others. Controlling the distances between the two frame mount points, and dimensional
tolerances in the pass-peg/rear mount castings, and then the thickness of the mounts themselves, is purt near
impossible. We all know that H-D has moved away from the "shim it til it's right" method of production to the
"slam it together and ship it, close enough is good enough" philosophy. Our lovely flywheel assembly and
no sprocket shaft Timkens are a perfect example.

Yes, I shelled out 400 bux to fix the swing arm mount problem. I hate to tell you how much I spent converting
my cases to tapered Timkens! I look at this kind of stuff as "insurance". Cheaper to prevent then fix later...

I think your point is that what is really needed at the factory is a "shim to fit" for the two rear mounts. Of
course, that doesn't fit HD's business model anymore, does it? It seems they've chosen the path of changing
the design to cure the problem, and maybe that's good. I really don't like how tall the new bikes are, but
that's my problem not theirs. However, I sure want to hear how a '09 with 100K miles on it compares to
one with 100 miles on it. Is the frame stability problem "really" fixed? Or just masked? Time will tell I guess...

Cheers,
JW

No, but my drunken camel does handle like a bagger  :hyst:

I try to keep my speed down on that sweeper cuz, first there is a there is a hundred foot drop off and only one lane that starts over the river and very rough about a third of the way.   :wink:

I know for fact that some wallows are rider induce.  and watch a guy from behind make it happen all the time.  finally talk with him about it and found out he has a death grip on the ape handlebars and could not hold a steady line in the corners, I finally rode the bike myself and it was rock steady thru the same sweepers.   it is a habit he wont break.  then again the same guy was riding with me to visit Seattledyna,  after I got to the bottom of the canyon,  he turn around and went back to Placerville and waited for me to come back around  :hyst:

I've never taken that  part of a bike apart and only have pictures for reference so I have a couple of questions. Is Max making 2 shims? One for each side? And is my understanding correct? i.e. There is something on the inside of the donut on the frame or swing arm that is cutting into the donut incrementally that then allows some movement? If that's the case does it matter what the thickness is of the shim? My bike was pretty good and stable when new but it defintiely wallows now at 53,000 miles so I was interested in the Glide Pro, but if I can fix it for less than a buck instead of $400 I'm for it! Is there a need or would it be better to replace the stock donuts and use the new shim also?

Quote from: bigfoot5x on October 17, 2010, 07:32:16 AM
I've never taken that  part of a bike apart and only have pictures for reference so I have a couple of questions. Is Max making 2 shims? One for each side?

I only made one 0.035 shim.. As a result I had to shift my butt 0.0175 to the right to compensate..  :wink:  For me, on the bike I tried the mods on.. It tracked straight before and after the shim. If you need more you may want to look at balancing shims on both sides...

QuoteAnd is my understanding correct? i.e. There is something on the inside of the donut on the frame or swing arm that is cutting into the donut incrementally that then allows some movement?

Actually I believe the newer donut bracket does cut into the rubber to some extent.. Look at the pics.. The rubber on the outside look to be cut into slightly.. The bracket has a narrow rounded edge,, It stops when it hits steel which is not very much.. It does release some load on the stackup.. This may be by design..

Quote
If that's the case does it matter what the thickness is of the shim?

I say it does.. That's why the indicator..

QuoteMy bike was pretty good and stable when new but it definitely wallows now at 53,000 miles so I was interested in the Glide Pro, but if I can fix it for less than a buck instead of $400 I'm for it! Is there a need or would it be better to replace the stock donuts and use the new shim also?

The first thing I would to is perform the check with the dial indicator.. You should check the condition of the donuts.. Make sure they are in good shape.. This is not a substitute for warn parts, it's an adjustment to an existing stackup.. If you decide to change the donuts.. Reassemble with new ones and check again.. If it OK, ride the bike.. If the bike still wobbles check end play again and look elsewhere..

I'd also say if you can't find it.. Try the glide pro..

Max

I was hoping Big Dan would reply to this thread because he had a bad experience with a swing arm stabilizing device that might be of interest.
His device broke and his bike became unrideable. The device did such a good job of stabilizing that he didn't know the doughnuts were shot till it broke.

hey truck,what brand of stabilizer did big dan have? nice to know which ones are prone to break

I don't know the brand.

Quote from: hbkeith on October 17, 2010, 08:30:46 AM
hey truck,what brand of stabilizer did big dan have? nice to know which ones are prone to break

Even better to know these add-on do-dads can cover up underlying worn out components that need repair/replacement.

Who would one sue for injuries due to failure of an aftermarket device that masks worn out suspension parts?  :scratch:
Bob

Installed a dampener on my 02 ultra got rid of any wobble and high speed torque set down (old frame and technology new added hp and torque go figure)

Quotehigh speed torque set down

While I've not had any luck with dampers curing wobbles, they do seem to get rid of the shimmies. What is the above reference to?   Max

BTw,

Since adding the shim and removing the tourpack, the FTHTC handles much better. Might be a little shimmy here or there but I still haven't changed he front tire.. It doesn't handle as well an 02 road king but that is mostly due to the added weight of the fairing. When flipping it back forth in the tight stuff, you can really feel the fairings weight..  Max..

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on November 08, 2010, 06:33:43 AM
It doesn't handle as well an 02 road king but that is mostly due to the added weight of the fairing. When flipping it back forth in the tight stuff, you can really feel the fairings weight..  Max..

I don't notice the fairing so much with my '09 batwing bike.  Trish actually thought the SG handled better than the RK when she rode the two a couple of weekends ago.   :nix:

Quote from: mayor on November 08, 2010, 06:56:17 AM

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on November 08, 2010, 06:33:43 AM
It doesn't handle as well an 02 road king but that is mostly due to the added weight of the fairing. When flipping it back forth in the tight stuff, you can really feel the fairings weight..  Max..

I don't notice the fairing so much with my '09 batwing bike.  Trish actually thought the SG handled better than the RK when she rode the two a couple of weekends ago.   :nix:

Did you have to replace the floorboards after she road it?

no, she wasn't quite riding that agressive.   :teeth:  I'm pretty sure that my RK scrapes before the SG does though (I have floorboard offsets on the RK  :wink: )

Rear tire is almost shot..Squared off from dyno runs and slabbing.  Bike started to wobble again probably partly because if the extra HP and the bad rear tire.... Set fall away on the front end. Wobble still there.  so I installed a brandy new glide pro kit.

Max

Max
The Dunlop 160/80/16 bias E3 is worth checking out. Fills the guard, sticks to the road, gets great tyre life. My 07 would wallow when the tread was low on the 402. Interested how you like the glidepro.

Max,

I'd be interested in your take as well, for me, when I installed the Glide Pro kit last fall, it got rid of my high speed, long sweeper wobble-

Of course I also put a mu90b 16 e3 on the rear- replacing the 402 that I had always run.

I don't know which helped more, those two changes compliment each other I think, and I don't care, it's easier to ride quickly now   :teeth:

Quote
Of course I also put a mu90b 16 e3 on the rear- replacing the 402 that I had always run.

Bet it was the tire..

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on February 17, 2011, 02:46:12 PM

Quote
Of course I also put a mu90b 16 e3 on the rear- replacing the 402 that I had always run.

Bet it was the tire..

Max

:up: :up:
I always suggest to replace/repair maintenance items such as tires and engine/swingarm mounts before spending that money on add-ons.

I know of a rider who added an "anti-wobble" device to his bagger, that developed a wobble, only to crash during an emergency maneuver. His swingarm mounts were completely worn out (78k miles) and his upper engine mount was not connected!

Had he taken the money he spent on the add-on device and paid a shop to check and repair the worn out and missing mounts....?

Bob

You are both probably right, when I made the switch I had about 50,000 miles on the rear donuts, and the front motor mount- they were both shot and needed replacing.
It only made sense to me to replace both with glide pro
Having tried and discarded 3 other "add-on" fixes over the years with no appreciable effect, and adjusting front fork fall away several times in my garage,
Done the engine and tranny alignment as well,
finally it tracks true.
Although I had gotten so used to the wobble after all these years, I had to adjust when it was gone- no biggy

these are just my own experiences-
joe

Quote from: hogbag on February 17, 2011, 01:05:16 PM
Max
The Dunlop 160/80/16 bias E3 is worth checking out. Fills the guard, sticks to the road, gets great tyre life. My 07 would wallow when the tread was low on the 402. Interested how you like the glidepro.

Sounds like the tire to use..

Only had a chance to ride to work yesterday and back.. It does seem a little better but those claiming it fixed the wobble either were just barely noticing the issue and the change helped there and they are a lot more sensitive to than I.. The FLHTC has gotten it's hinge back in the middle of the bike and I believe the main issue is the rear tire (almost shot D402).. This glide pro unit has it's own rubber biscuits and they are thicker than stock. The preloaded on the blocks is much more than what was on the stock setup even after I added the shim. On pulling the stock shimmed unit off, I noticed that the rear fork brackets has chewed deeper into the light rubber covering hitting the metal below.. This probably reduced the clamp in the biscuits..

Anyway it's not fixed completely.. Will ride it some more.. BTW Vibes are worse than my preloaded stockers.. Will give it the obligatory 300 to 500 mile ride and see.. Probably have to change tire soon.  I'm thinking that shimmed stock one is good but am thinking to find some early rear fork brackets as they are thicker and trying the the shimmed stock setup again..

Might do that the same time I change the tire..   :wink:

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on February 18, 2011, 07:21:23 AM

Quote from: hogbag on February 17, 2011, 01:05:16 PM
Max
The Dunlop 160/80/16 bias E3 is worth checking out. Fills the guard, sticks to the road, gets great tyre life. My 07 would wallow when the tread was low on the 402. Interested how you like the glidepro.

Sounds like the tire to use..

Only had a chance to ride to work yesterday and back.. It does seem a little better but those claiming it fixed the wobble either were just barely noticing the issue and the change helped there and they are a lot more sensitive to than I.. The FLHTC has gotten it's hinge back in the middle of the bike and I believe the main issue is the rear tire (almost shot D402).. This glide pro unit has it's own rubber biscuits and they are thicker than stock. The preloaded on the blocks is much more than what was on the stock setup even after I added the shim. On pulling the stock shimmed unit off, I noticed that the rear fork brackets has chewed deeper into the light rubber covering hitting the metal below.. This probably reduced the clamp in the biscuits..

Anyway it's not fixed completely.. Will ride it some more.. BTW Vibes are worse than my preloaded stockers.. Will give it the obligatory 300 to 500 mile ride and see.. Probably have to change tire soon.  I'm thinking that shimmed stock one is good but am thinking to find some early rear fork brackets as they are thicker and trying the the shimmed stock setup again..

Might do that the same time I change the tire..   :wink:

Max

Did you install a glide-pro mount also?Do this   loosen the center motor mount bolt and the two holding mount to the frame take it for a short ride tighten the mount to frame and the center bolt w/no up and down drag if using a glide pro mount 8-10 fb on center bolt

Yes,

Didn't take it for a ride but started the bike and let it idle per the instructions.. Center bolt was loose and after running you could pull it out with no binding.. I didn't torque the asked for in the instructions but used the German torque spec.. FWIW the vibes aren't that bad just a little more..

Max

Magic handling fix will happen when you replace the square tread tire with a round tread tire. :wink:
Bob

I believe the main issue is the rear tire (almost shot D402).   

Bingo! 

I had been riding a worn out D402 for a while and it would squirm around a lot, sometimes even felt the feedback in the handlebar.  With the new E3 it is rock solid again.

  Not ignoring the huge difference between squared and new tires, the E3 is a more stable casing/tire vs. 402, remember hearing that Max,  back before you started collecting wagomatics.  Got to give those wagger-baggers all the advantage you can.  :wink:   Rick

Don't know about the drunken camel thing but I've seen some pretty hairy drunks piloting Harleys.  They have been known to look menacing, sport an attitude and spit proficiently.   

The design of the frame with the motor gearbox and swing tied together lends it self to developing a tail wag under hard cornering. I found the major problem with my bike was the bike was out of alignment and needed string lining. After this the bike felt very tight but it still developed a tail wag when pushed very hard through 120 KPH  sweepers mainly after hitting a bump mid corner it would compress the suspension sending the bike into a tail-wag. The progressive stabilizer does tie the gearbox to the rear frame aiding in stopping some  flexing from the the swingarm gear box and motor. One guy in Australia posted up some photo's on a HD site of his fix and that was fitting a couple of neoprene bushes behind the rear foot board mounts pressing up against each side of the swing arm. When he bolted the mounts on the frame it would hold the swingarm from flexing side by side. He used Toyota landcruiser shackle bushes reamed out on the inside to clear the swingarm bolt nuts. I will try this mod one day with the yellow ARB 4x4 type bushes that are made to go in the front suspension hangers on the early leaf spring models.   

         

My read is that crappy tires, some manufacturing tolerances and aliment are the major problems that have plagued this design.. HD touts the new frame when they really found the better tires / wheels helped.. Frame is a better scapegoat as it promotes new vehicle sales.  They did the same thing on the Dyna's, should work on the waggers also.. 

Max

Any more feedback on the glide-pro? Did it help the bike even though the tire was spent?

Should be putting a couple hundred on the bike tomorrow..

Max

Just wondering what your thoughts are w/glide-pro .

Got about 210 miles on the bike yesterday.. Mostly pretty casual riding.
Bike still wobbles.. Might be a little better.. Frequency of the twitch is higher.. Other than that pretty much the same.. Might need to swap back to the stock setup to verify..

Max

  More Do-rag Max and you will master the ill camel.   :missed:  Rick

Only need to keep the camel off the fermented date juice.. Changing the rear tire will cure the ale(:soda:)-ment,  Max

Personally I think on a bike with some miles on it new stock donuts and a Bagger Brace is the way to go. (JMHO).

Rick

Personally I think on a bike with some miles on it new stock donuts and better tires is the way to go. (JMHO).
Suspension helps but the stock front forks on the 07 are fine (IMO)

Max

Quote from: rredneckn2 on February 22, 2011, 06:30:18 PM
Just wondering what your thoughts are w/glide-pro .

BTW,

My favorite test sweeper today on the way to work.. Last Thursday, there was a too much traffic.. Today was good.. Can't tell the difference between the Glide-Pro and no Glide pro..(cept it vibrates more)  May actually be a little bit worse but the while the tire still has tread it's pretty much shot.. It's what making things worse.  Runs true, no bubbles, has pressure.. Pretty square,, Crappy tire design if you want to push it..

Good in the DG tho...  :wink:

Max

Max
This might help

http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693 (http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693)

Quote from: hogbag on February 25, 2011, 01:49:58 AM
Max
This might help
http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693 (http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693)

I seriously doubt it.. If the front end were flexing I'd feel it more in hard cornering at lower speeds.. The front end on this thing feels solid at anything below 65-70.. Rear tire will fix the problem.. and the glide pro will get removed after the new tire is installed and I get some miles on the bike just to see what the switch back reveals any anything I'm missing.  I need to look harder as I really don't see any improvement right now.. If there was an improvement it wasn't where I thought it was (ie high speed sweepers.)..  Well see then if I can get my money back for it..

Some here have claimed it helps with dancing on the freeway rain groves.. Not not for me..

Max

Maybe at lower speeds the front end is not compressing enough to feel flex.

Quote from: Deye76 on February 25, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Maybe at lower speeds the front end is not compressing enough to feel flex.

It's probably more the opposite that tells me the forks aren't the problem.. I can push the front end into a tighter, rougher, lower turn to the point where you can feel the forks working over the bumps and it's still stable.. In a sweeper, not much load, just speed, the front end feel light and vague even without the bumps.. Bumps just make it dance.. I've seen fork braces help hard cornering, tighter, rough curves but do absolutely nothing for the sweepers. 

Max

Before I started working on my bike myself, I had the Local moco go through the Whole thing, (tire to tire) new tires, wheel bearing, swing arm bushing, big bore, cams,  everything. It is a 2001 e-glide and it is my first bagger. my previous bike was a 1998 Dyna. 3 months after the moco got done with my bagger I had a tank slapper that almost threw me. 70 mph on the freeway, went to go around a car and accelerate at the same time (bad idea). Anyway dealer told me "Its not your Dyna, It'll do that". long story short, bought a Tru-Track, it helped some. I chased the problem for a year. I got lots of input from Here on HTT. This is what i found: swing arm alignment out by 3/8" at the front hime (spelling?) joint, fork oil 100cc lower in left rear shock(some leaked out when they were removed prior to my owning the bike),
new rear E3 tire, and here is the big one, The dealer didnt put the Cup washer on the rear swing arm when they rebuilt it. I guess my point is that I felt an improvement at each step, but it was a process and I have to agree with Bob and Max on this one. The stabilizers work but they add stability, they don't make it stabile. fix the problems first then add the stabilizer to get more out of it if your riding style demands. Just be careful if things get worn out and the stabilizer is masking it you could be in for an unrecoverable wobble. After my experience I put my bagger on the lift and check torques every couple of months.

JMHO
Dean

 These bikes have been engineered for nimble handling and light steering while maintaining acceptable stability for the intended speed/application.  Stability is marginal when pushed hard at speed.  I wouldn't discount the effect movement of any kind (including suspension) has on stability especially at higher speed.  On old high mileage FL's we used to add 1/2"-1" preload spacers...increasing rake/trail and ground clearance...helped those old dogs.  I have no experience with late model FL's but being soft sprung and/or lacking quality speed sensitive dampening contributes to stability issues.  I still think that FL's should have fork springs that are 1.0kg mm or better.  Big heavy barge needs stout legs.  Trying to hold the bike up without sufficient spring rate is like riding/driving on a flat......it can be done but gets uglier the faster you go.  Max you have used Race Tech on bikes before IIRC,  maybe a call to a HD savvy tech there might net some ideas on the challenges of waggers.  The wagger wobble is commonplace and the after market suspension industry should be able to give some input on what changes will help.  I question whether devices are the right fix,  but suspect that once the suspension is improved the next weak link will need attention.  It's admirable that you share the things you try/test and look for economical fixes.    Rick

  Maybe little future wagger riders need Rocking Camels instead of Rocking Horses.

When I bought this bike, the suspension had already been reworked. It had the heavy version progressive 440s in the rear and I later discovered that the front end has progressive springs and 20 w fork oil that were added when the front lowers were PCed black.. The owner kept service records and listed the parts at a 2000 mile service (but not the part numbers  :emsad:). I'm tried to research the spring rates and there are 2 possible springs that can be used and I'm not sure which was chosen. It's possibly the stiffer of the 2. There is very little sag and the springs are pretty stiff.  Damping on these new forks is actually quite good as it has the HD version of the emulators. The front tire sticks and doesn't appear to slip like bikes with forks without the emulators.

I've actually replaced the rear shocks with lighter sprung/damped 440s .. Also went to 10w sprectro fork oil.. While both have improved the ride, the damping is still pretty stiff.. In fact, the 440s on the my road king took about 5K to loosen up.. I do need to check sag on the front but suspect that its on the high side of what I would consider good.. Probably about 3/4 inch.

My 02 RKC is sprung softer in the front (with racetechs) and with the rears 440s worn in, the has a nice cushy ride yet still handles great.. 90 in the same sweeper and it feels like the EGC at 60.. The suspension on the EGC is close to where I would like it to be but it just likes to wag it's tail.. I'll get a new tire on order today..

QuoteAfter my experience I put my bagger on the lift and check torques every couple of months.

Good idea.. I'm lazy and don't use a torque wrench but still check when doing oil changes.. Don't forget that shift lever arms on the tranny and the exhaust.. :wink:

Max

 No doubt the new tire will help. I do have to admit,compared to my previous 402, my new E3 made a world of difference on how much my bike followed the rain grooves. Seems to hold the ground better in the rain as well. BTW i should be clear. I do check to make sure things are tight, but the torque Wrench usually only comes out if I find something questionable. and I don't actually know what an emulator is. Can you explain?

Quote from: jamesd12 on February 25, 2011, 01:58:02 PM
...and I don't actually know what an emulator is. Can you explain?

This should help:
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/race_tech_cartridge_emulator/index.html (http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/race_tech_cartridge_emulator/index.html)
Bob

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on February 25, 2011, 07:06:45 AM

Quote from: hogbag on February 25, 2011, 01:49:58 AM
Max
This might help
http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693 (http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693)

I seriously doubt it.. If the front end were flexing I'd feel it more in hard cornering at lower speeds.. The front end on this thing feels solid at anything below 65-70.. Rear tire will fix the problem.. and the glide pro will get removed after the new tire is installed and I get some miles on the bike just to see what the switch back reveals any anything I'm missing.  I need to look harder as I really don't see any improvement right now.. If there was an improvement it wasn't where I thought it was (ie high speed sweepers.)..  Well see then if I can get my money back for it..

Some here have claimed it helps with dancing on the freeway rain groves.. Not not for me..

Max

Max
Sit on your bike and give the bars a good shake and feel the forks flexing. I know this is not the cause of the tail wag. But once the wagging starts I'm sure the weak triple tree's would be flexing with the rest of the drive line.

Quote from: hogbag on February 25, 2011, 04:59:32 PM
Max
Sit on your bike and give the bars a good shake and feel the forks flexing. I know this is not the cause of the tail wag. But once the wagging starts I'm sure the weak triple tree's would be flexing with the rest of the drive line.

OH GOD DON'T DO THAT!!! :smileo: :smileo:
You will never ride that bike again!!!
Bob

  Max,  Sorry you had to bring me up to speed on the suspension.  No doubt the aftermarket springs are better/stiffer than stock and good/close enough for a cruiser.  Thinking laden sag should be a minimum of 20% and up to 30% of total travel,  and there has to be some unladen sag for it to be right......I'll bet its OK.  The firmer suspension no doubt loads/exposes other weaknesses. Obviously a new tire will make a big difference but it would be nice to have a bike that can still be ridden semi-hard on a square rag without being scary.  Harleys are definitely individuals....some are better/worst than others but the bagger wag is prevalent enough for a check list and remedies to exist.  I think the majority of riders just except the bikes limitations and some never go there.  But not Max he'll make that camel hunt!  Should be able to run 80mph sweepers with the floorboards close to the deck without the thing trying to snake its way off the road.    Carry on Max.        Rick

Rick
Over cook a corner under brakes on a stock bagger and its all over rover.

QuoteCarry on Max.        Rick

Roger that Rick, I shoot for 25% but to be honest, I've not checked it on this bike..

QuoteRick
Over cook a corner under brakes on a stock bagger and its all over rover.

Not Rick not I sure hope not.. Unless you run out of traction or road..

QuoteCan you explain?

Dean,

The stock damping system in most HDs with Showa forks is what I call single speed damping.. Some of the early glides had a cartridge fork in on side and single speed damping in the other.   Ignore the cartridge for now.. Anyway, single speed means that the damping depends on oil flow through an orifice and not much else.. They typically have 2 damping systems. One for compression and one for rebound. The Showa forks on most HDs is set up this way.. Anyway the hot setup for damping is to use different damping rates based on spring loaded valves or regulators.. The regulators open up a high speed damping circuit when velocity on the fork movement is high enough. This orifice allows the fork to compress or rebound even faster. Some shock designs may have a 3rd circuit.. I suspect Olins have but have not had a chance to examine one..  The Race tech emulators add a high speed regulator to the compression damping but none on rebound.. For the most part this make the handling a bunch better.. The front tire says in contact with the road and less shock from severe bumps is transmitted to the rest of the bike.. Rebound is less important than compression IMO..

From something like 2006 up HD has started to use 2 speed compression systems on the FLHs. The system is basically the same design as race-tech emulators but built into the damping rods. Much better then the older single speed systems. 

Cartridge forks typically have 2 speed in both compression and rebound... The cartridge forks on an FXDX or FXDS are actually pretty good and the high speed damping is adjustable..

Virtually all high performance dirt bikes now use at least a 2 speed systems with high speed being adjustable.

Max

are the E3s really that much better than the 402s, would it work well on rear with 402 still on front? radial or bias?  keep up the research Max  :up: im following ya

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on February 25, 2011, 07:06:45 AM

Quote from: hogbag on February 25, 2011, 01:49:58 AM
Max
This might help
http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693 (http://www.ccesd.us/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_209&products_id=693)

I seriously doubt it.. If the front end were flexing I'd feel it more in hard cornering at lower speeds.. The front end on this thing feels solid at anything below 65-70.. Rear tire will fix the problem.. and the glide pro will get removed after the new tire is installed and I get some miles on the bike just to see what the switch back reveals any anything I'm missing.  I need to look harder as I really don't see any improvement right now.. If there was an improvement it wasn't where I thought it was (ie high speed sweepers.)..  Well see then if I can get my money back for it..

Some here have claimed it helps with dancing on the freeway rain groves.. Not not for me..

Max

If you are unhappy with the glide-pro Jake will give you a refund

Quote from: hbkeith on February 26, 2011, 04:51:55 AM
are the E3s really that much better than the 402s, would it work well on rear with 402 still on front? radial or bias?  keep up the research Max  :up: im following ya

The front currently has an E3 on it.. This was done about 1K ago.. Didn't make much difference...

I agree about the E3.. If you look at the tread design on a 402.. It has strips of tread that line up with rotational direction of the tire..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/dunflop.jpg)

I don't have an e3 yet but do have a Michelin Commander.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/mich.jpg)

Notice that other than the center groove, the Commander does not have any tread cuts in the same direction as the tire rotation.. This means that when you start to roll over on the side of the tire.. There is rubber around the area of tire contact to support lateral loads.. The dunlop 402 does not have this and the tread can flex more.. As the tire wears flat the rubber on that reagon becomes higher with less supporting rubber towards the middle to handle some of the load..

The 402 wobbles but the Commander does not... While these are on different bikes and I'm sure the EGC is more prone to bringing out the weaknesses in the 402..

The E3s are more like the Commander in design than the 'lop

Max

  Had a conversation with a Dunlop rep. in 2006, he shared that the E3 has a more stable casing vs. a 402,  I found that to be true.  IMO a 402 is just an average tire.  The E3 is one of the better handling high mileage "touring" tires available.  To me the E3 has a more current/performance tread.  I'm thinking on heavy bikes its more about the casing being stable than tread block squirm when loaded up in a corner......not referring to following road grooves/irregularities which is more tread related.    Rick

QuoteI'm thinking on heavy bikes its more about the casing being stable than tread block squirm when loaded up in a corner.

I would bet it's a little of both, just from the point of view that when the tire was new, it had less of a problem. As the tread wears, there is probably more tread squirm.. The 402 is not a bad tire for sandy or dirty roads at lower speeds.. Definitely not a high performance tire..

The biggest single change to handling on my 2000 FXDX was to change from a 160/80-16 to a 180/60-18 on the rear and add stiffer wheels both front and back.. The 180 definitely has less carcass flex.. You can run the tire to bald and the bikes handing is mostly not effected.

Max

Max,  True that on worn tires,  I was referring to a 402 vs. an E3 both in good condition not worn low on tread or square.  A lot of bikes start to feel trashy when the tires are real low on tread.......just shouldn't be trying to dismount the rider before the ride is over.   Rick

radial or bias E3 on rear with stock 402 still on front?

Quote from: hbkeith on February 27, 2011, 07:10:43 AM
radial or bias E3 on rear with stock 402 still on front?

Currently a bias E3 on front, 402 in the back.. Max

Thanks for the lesson on the emulator Max. I appreciate the info.

Dean

BTW, Great article Bob, pictures were helpful. everything is clearer for me with pictures :smile: I have never had my front forks apart so you an Max have shed some serious light on the whole process.

Thanks
Dean

One thing not mentioned in this thread is wheel bearings. (unless i missed it)
Some aftermarket wheels and IIRC the 08 up use 3 in the rear, thinner ones, 2 on the pulley side and one on the rotor side. these have been known to go bad within 20,000 miles. Although the side to side movement can be very minimal, or nonexistent to a hand test, enough to do the shimmyshake. Just found this on mine.

Good points.. I've checked both.. and they look tight and smooth. Did the front when changing the tire over to an E3, Also checked run-out.. Checked the rear when I pulled the swingarm to install a shorter belt and new 30t font pulley.. New MU90-16 E3 for the rear should be here on Friday.. Not sure I'll get to it until next week as I've look to have a busy weekend. Have the TB off and am doing some flow testing / mods.. Need to build a fixture.  Also have a DnD Big bore quiet baffle coming in today. Well see if it kills the low end.. My thoughts that with the mouse cam / short exhaust duration, it won't loose anything..

Max

Max,whats differance in the MU90 and the MT90 ?

Quote from: hbkeith on March 01, 2011, 06:51:44 PM
Max,whats differance in the MU90 and the MT90 ?

10mm

http://www.steelthundercc.com/tiresizes.html (http://www.steelthundercc.com/tiresizes.html)

Max

I installed the Bagger Brace on my 07 FLHTCI and will be upgrading the front suspension with the Progressive package.  I can tell you, the Bagger Brace made a world of difference on how my bagger handles corners.  The bike feels rock solid in corners now, no pogoing in the apex of the turn.  A lot of things come into play when there are handling problems.  Tire pressures, tires out of balance, wheel alignment out, vertical/horizonal stabilizers loose, worn out from motor mount or swingarm pivot bushings, steering stem bearing either too tight or too loose, fork springs shot.  All of these things work in concert with each other.  I can say the brace is worth every penny.

QuoteI can say the brace is worth every penny.

So did you check pre-load on the swingarm mount which was the purpose of this exercise, instead of spending 400 bucks for the bagger brace??  If you could have fixed the problem with a 2 dollar shim and new better profile tires (which this bike needs), would the bagger brace be worth every penny?  If so I might have some other stuff for sale..  :wink:

FWIW some like the 402s. They do seem to work OK when new.. If you don't push the bike many might not ever even notice the issues.. It still handles just fine below 70 with worn tires.

I just spent 400 bucks on one gadget, you want to me to spend 400 on another?  Maybe the 2 together will work?  :hyst:

Did you read this whole thread?

Max

QuoteI can tell you, the Bagger Brace made a world of difference on how my bagger handles corners.

High speed or low speed?

Max

Max,

The Bagger Brace is $290 shipped unless it went up a bunch since I bought mine, and I agree worth every penny at any speed.  Bagger Brace, E3's, Works fork springs and shocks and my 05 handles and rides better than either of the "new frame" bikes I've ridden. One of the owners of the new bikes will attest to that.

Rick

And I have a 2003 RG with a 117 that never wobbles...at any speed, any corner.
Bob
Max is right IMO. No need to add on do-dads IF everything else is in good shape and aligned/tightened up.

Some bikes seem to wobble no matter what...like my '94 Ultra...since day 1...no matter what (complete ground up rebuild with all new wear parts).

I was told by an insider that the frame jigs were very worn and have found some variances in geometry between the steering head and it relation to the swingarm pivot.

This would cause the wheels to travel in different vectors from each other. This would cause vehicle instability as the chassis moves through its travel...especially in high speed corners.

No add-on do-dads fixed the problem...tried them all.
I'm to cheap and lazy to replace the frame after more than 110,000mi of dealing with the "high speed weave" as it is referred to by the MOCO.

Bob

Not heard of handling issues with 09-up chassis...except from worn out (square) tires.
Just my $.02,
Bob

Concerning my post on wheel bearings, fingers and brain were not synchronized. My aftermarket rear wheel has the 3 thinner width bearings, and the '08 up factory rear wheel has only 2 thinner bearings (even worse than the aftermarket IMO). Wanted to clear that up. After installing new bearings ($15.00eaX3 :angry: need to source these) no lateral movement measured with an indicator, test ride =  :up:
Motor mount and stabilizers have been previously replaced, swingarm solid, so I have to agree with FLTRI and Max, when these things check out along with good shocks and tires and the neck bearing properly tightened, no braces needed. 

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 02, 2011, 06:54:45 AM

QuoteI can say the brace is worth every penny.

So did you check pre-load on the swingarm mount which was the purpose of this exercise, instead of spending 400 bucks for the bagger brace??  If you could have fixed the problem with a 2 dollar shim and new better profile tires (which this bike needs), would the bagger brace be worth every penny?  If so I might have some other stuff for sale..  :wink:

FWIW some like the 402s. They do seem to work OK when new.. If you don't push the bike many might not ever even notice the issues.. It still handles just fine below 70 with worn tires.

I just spent 400 bucks on one gadget, you want to me to spend 400 on another?  Maybe the 2 together will work?  :hyst:

Did you read this whole thread?

Max

Yes, I read the whole thread.  I was simply stating that the bagger brace helped a great deal with the known issue of the dresser frames flexing in corners creating the pogo effect.  Even if you fix all of the known issues that can cause handling problems, tires, tire pressures, steering stem bearings etc., the inherit problem with the frame flexing in corners is still there.  The brace will help and will be noticed at high speeds going into corners.  Hope this explains my post better.

Bruce
my 07 ultra. 402's sucked. tried Avon, metzler, then the E3'S the E3's made a night and day diff.
added a bagger brace. it helped tremendously. it moved the duck walk on hard corning up to a speed most wouldnt go anyway. I still had slight walk two up and loaded down heavy , top heavy with the t bag. the batwing high speed wobble was gone on accel until around 120 mph in 6 th. (about the same as it was at 100 mph when the bike was stage 1.) as you well know the more power you have to "push" at high speed (on accel) the less movement you will have. but the brace did help the decel slight wobble at 120 mph.
along with the 120 r I installed the glide pro kit. left the bagger brace on it also. I am as impressed with the glide pro kit as I am the 120 r.
the bike feels like a sport bike now....or at least like I am on a dyna. there is no wobble at all at 120 mph accel, decel or at cruise :bike:
it feels like a 2x4 with wheels. straight and tight.
I will say that my bike has always been one that is tighter than most since brand new. I get to ride a lot of diff baggers and some of them with very low miles feel worn out. not sure what the deal is with some of these baggers.
I haven't been able to put her through the twisties yet,but it feels like a big big improvement.

interesting what your doing ....as always. :up:
like Rick said. if you are not satisified with the glide pro. Jake will take it back and refund your money. I wish I would have installed one 60,000 miles ago :banghead:

Quote from: Tbones on March 02, 2011, 12:26:21 PM
...helped a great deal with the known issue of the dresser frames flexing in corners creating the pogo effect...the inherit problem with the frame flexing in corners is still there.

No indication of frame flex on these baggers. Got any documented frame flex? Basically the same frame as the FXR, which was arguably the best handling Harley ever made. Swingarm flex/movement yes. A problem when ridden sanely and all parts are properly maintained, no.

The new ('09-up) frames are no better than earlier frames for flex but a ton better in swingarm flex/movement. Just take a peek at one the next time you get a chance...they are BEEFY!!!
JME,
Bob
PS - Most pogoing is due to piss-poor shock dampening...as in lack of rebound dampening. OEM air shock damper valving is good for between 10k and 30k depending how and where you ride and loading. Aftermarket shocks/springs are usually much stiffer than stock and some complain they are too stiff while others feel they are much better.

Max,
Let us know when you get a chance to ride your bike with a new tire. :bike:
Every time I get a high speed feeling of instability I take a look at my rear tire...yep squared off.
New tire and the bike feels great again...for another 6-8k miles. I ride mostly in the twisties at speeds most think is not safe. :scratch:
Don't have high speed (>100mph) straight line wobble...do have some feeling of instability when I abruptly roll off the throttle in a high speed down hill sweeper that I entered way too fast. :smileo:
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on March 02, 2011, 03:05:17 PM

Quote from: Tbones on March 02, 2011, 12:26:21 PM
...helped a great deal with the known issue of the dresser frames flexing in corners creating the pogo effect...the inherit problem with the frame flexing in corners is still there.

No indication of frame flex on these baggers. Got any documented frame flex? Basically the same frame as the FXR, which was arguably the best handling Harley ever made. Swingarm flex/movement yes. A problem when ridden sanely and all parts are properly maintained, no.

No, I don't have any documentation on frame flex, all I have is how the bike felt going into corners hot without the brace and how it feels going into corners hot with the brace.  It's just how I ride.  I wasn't "telling" the OP to get one, I was just putting the brace out there for info.  To each their own and to how they ride.  I'm an aggressive rider, maybe not "sane" to others but I'm comfortable with how I ride.  If you or the OP don't think the brace is worth it, that's great.  But maybe other members reading this thread would be interested.  Here is an interesting article about the new frame starting in 09.  About 2/3 rds of the way down they talk about frame flex.

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/harley-davidson/2009-harleydavidson-touring-models-review-86648.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/harley-davidson/2009-harleydavidson-touring-models-review-86648.html)

Quoteall I have is how the bike felt going into corners hot without the brace and how it feels going into corners hot with the brace.

Well on my EGC I can't feel any difference in stability,  handled crappy both ways..I can go in hot as long and it's below say 60 and not have any problems after I tightened up the isolators.. Yours does sound they are loose.  If you look at the discussion here, the issue is not enough compression on the rubber isolators,, I have no doubt that adding the bagger brace helps as it controls lateral movement of the drive train in the frame but with the isolators setup correctly it is a non issue.. .. So why blow 300 bucks when you probably only need to spent 2?  Not sure I understand the logic.. (of course I just spent 400 to see if glide pro would work for me.)

My 02 RK drives straighter than I can and it don't have any prosthetics.. It does have good shocks front and rear, mag wheels (Older HD spoked steel rims suck, I suspect that's why HD went to the contoured rims), and Micheline Tires..  Micheline work real well, as do Bridgestones. 402s and 'zillian Metzlers suck. FWIW the shocks are set up nice and soft but damping is good.  King handles like a sport bike (but it needs to go on a diet  :embarrassed: loose about 350 lbs )

I do plan to change rear tire on the Electraglide.  See how much it improves, Will even toss the tour pack back on then pull the glide pro and see if any instability returns.. I may change over to early swing arm brackets as they are stiffer.

If I can't tell any difference, I will send the glide pro back and may try the bagger brace. Want to make sure I can get my money back on that one..

Max

Quote'It was becoming clear to Harley that a more robust frame was needed'

BTW this is marketing dribble to get others to dump their old bikes and by new ones.. If you are falling for that..  :hyst: They did rehang then motor to make it stiffer more consistent. Went to better tires.. Lower profile in the front, wider with better contour in the back.. They added a little trail to make the bike steer slower, and give the feeling of stability  and help the "loose" ones but I prefer less trail.

Stop reading those magazines. they'll rot your brain..

Max

QuoteHere is an interesting article about the new frame starting in 09.  About 2/3 rds of the way down they talk about frame flex.

I believe you are referring to this comment based on Pete Brissette's personal opinions:
"Bending the big bike through fast-paced sweepers revealed a distinct lack of flex and wallow commonly experienced on the previous chassis."
There is no documentation stipulating a more rigid frame...at least from the MOCO.

From the MOCO 2009 Tech Forum:
Frame & Mounts
* Completely redesigned frame
* 2 piece bolt-together construction
* Majority robotically welded
* New 4 point engine mount system
* Removable rear frame section
If anything I am suspect the new 2 piece frame will allow for more flex than the original 1 piece frame.

I am glad you have found adding a bracket to your bike fixed your handling issues.
I just hear a lot about how add-on do-dads magically turn wallowing 800 lb pigs into sportbikes.
"Rock solid handling at any speed."
Sorry if I offended,
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on March 02, 2011, 06:00:37 PM
glad you have found adding a bracket to your bike fixed your handling issues.
I just hear a lot about how add-on do-dads magically turn wallowing 800 lb pigs into sportbikes.
"Rock solid handling at any speed."
Sorry if I offended,
Bob

No need to apologize, I wasn't offended :).  This brace or anything else that one can do to improve the suspension of dressers is not going to get it to handle like a sport bike, I hope no-one took my post that way.  :)  I probably used the wrong terminology by saying taking out the pogo, as another member pointed out, pogoing has more to do with the shocks wanting to rebound.  The feeling I got from my dresser going into a corner hot was more of a mix between a pogo and a wobble, a circular motion that the bike would go thru.  Not quite a pogo and not quite a wobble.

I have a nice road a few miles from my house that I've road on hundreds of times.  It has some nice sweepers and some nice tight corners.  When I put the brace on, I took it out and tested my bike on this road.  The bike was night and day different going thru these corners then before at the same speeds I normally went thru them.  The bike was noticabley more stable and the "flex" was reduced by as much as 80%.  That's not scientific proof, I don't have an engineering degree, but I know what I felt before and after I installed the brace.  For me, it was worth the price.  I realize most people don't ride like I do so buying this brace probably wouldn't be a good investment. 

QuoteThe feeling I got from my dresser going into a corner hot was more of a mix between a pogo and a wobble, a circular motion that the bike would go thru.

Yep, Exactly.. Like a hinge in the middle of the bike,. Drunken camel in sand storm..

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 02, 2011, 05:58:03 PM

Quote'It was becoming clear to Harley that a more robust frame was needed'

BTW this is marketing dribble to get others to dump their old bikes and by new ones.. If you are falling for that..  :hyst: They did rehang then motor to make it stiffer more consistent. Went to better tires.. Lower profile in the front, wider with better contour in the back.. They added a little trail to make the bike steer slower, and give the feeling of stability  and help the "loose" ones but I prefer less trail.

Stop reading those magazines. they'll rot your brain..

Max

Using your logic then, I should stop reading posts on this site or, I should just take what you say is fact.  I don't believe the author of that article was marketing for the MOCO.  I don't want to be accused of hijacking this thread so how bout we clear the slate and just forget I mentioned it :).

I'd like to get back to your topic.  These washers that you cut out, I am assuming your trying to "tighten" up the side to side movement, am I right or wrong?  If this is the case, I'm wondering if this fix will transfer some motor/tranny vibrations thru the frame?  In any case, what you're doing is interesting, again my apologies, I did not intentionally try to hijack your thread.  Friends call me T.

QuoteI should stop reading posts on this site

Oh absolutely..

I should have mentioned the internet but forgot.

QuoteI am assuming your trying to "tighten" up the side to side movement, am I right or wrong? 

Yep. Increasing the preload on the donuts.. Have you ever looked at the donuts closely?? Do you understands what the ridges are for?

Quote
If this is the case, I'm wondering if this fix will transfer some motor/tranny vibrations thru the frame?

I'm sure it could.. in my case it didn't.. The glide pro did.. I made a frame mounted version of the bagger brace on an FXR and it made the vibes worse on it so anything you do can effect vibrations.. It's a 131 tho..

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 02, 2011, 10:52:49 PM
Yep. Increasing the preload on the donuts.. Have you ever looked at the donuts closely?? Do you understands what the ridges are for?

Yes, I have looked at them many times :).  No, I guess I've never been told what the ridges are for, I just looked at their condition and replaced them on both customer and my own bikes over the years.  I am assuming the ridges help reduce the lateral forces, am I wrong?  I'm just asking questions, not trying to dis what you're doing, just trying to understand.  It looks like your on to something so it peaked my interest. 

QuoteI am assuming the ridges help reduce the lateral forces, am I wrong?

You've sort of got the right idea but they don't reduce the force. They keep the donut from compressing in the lateral direction  but allow it to move in any direction perpendicular to the swing arm pivot..  The offset is mainly to support the loads of the drive train. It's really nothing more than a series of rings that keep the rubber from squishing out when a compressive force occurs.  Controlling the squish hold the rear drive train straight.. On of the most important things is preload on the donuts.  Not enough and you get bagger wobble. Too tight and you get vibes and may even tear up the bushings.. It would be real interesting see the tolerance stackup analysis that HD came up with for the swingarm.. There are probably about 9 differently manufactured parts that controlled that stackup.

1. Tranny (1)
2 inner spacer (2)
3. Spherical bearing (2)  (think one is probably good to a couple tenths)
4. outer spacers (2)
5. Donuts (2)
6. Swing arm brackets (2)
7.  Frame (1)

That is a lot of pieces.. I thing that 1,5,6,7 are the hardest to control..

If you've replaced number donuts look at swingarm brackets.. I suspect the new one are meant to bend a little to set the preload on the system..

BTW anyone got the number for an 02 road king swingarm brackets? 

Looks like they changed in 03 and IIRC 07..

QuoteI'm just asking questions, not trying to dis what you're doing,

Actually encourage this stuff.. Keeps me from barking up the wrong tree..

Max

From my 02 parts book.

50588-93     
50589-93    

from my 05 parts book.

50588-03     
50589-03

any ideas on the difference?

Thanks Dan,

Bruce


I'll add to this.. No don't.. unless it is the same as an 07.. Couldn't find my 07 parts book. If it's the same as the 07 then it's a different casting..

BTW the 50588-93 looks to be obsolete..

Max

50588-07     
50589-07

I know the 07-laters were different..
I got a right side from an 05 if you wanna play around with it?

yup, 50588-93 is obsolete

Yep, Got a pic?  Both sides.. If it looks like like the -93, I buy it off you..

Anyone know if they superseded the -93 to the -03?

Bruce

I know the locating slot has been widened, possibly for more "Fudge" fit?
Bob

http://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/updates/3081-003%20Inst%20Touring%20Link.pdf (http://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/updates/3081-003%20Inst%20Touring%20Link.pdf)

Maybe the alignment tit is different on the earlier ones? Check the link..

If you want the 05 right side one, pm me you addy and i'll give it to ya.

PMed ya,,

Thanks for the link explains the difference between the -93 and the -03.. I remember the roll pin on my FXR block but have not had the brackets off the 02 RoadKing.. Wider dowel is better...

Max

Add.. Thanks Bob also.. This helps.

Hey, is that "locator key" a Progressive or an OEM part?
Bob

I would suspect that it's Progressive's part just so that the right side matches the left (OEM).. Max..

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 04, 2011, 07:49:30 AM
I would suspect that it's Progressive's part just so that the right side matches the left (OEM).. Max..

Gotcha. Bet you're right.
Bob

Any updates on this mod?  Did this fix the handling issue?

Pic of stock isolater, Glide-Pro, stock with Sta-Bo.  Does anyone have an old stock one they could cut in half to check construction material.
Stock has a metal plate of both sides, top ridges are metal with rubber coating, but centers may be solid rubber.

My Sta-Bo is made out of Delrin and is very hard.  Sta-Bo replaced the Delrin with urethane.
http://www.sta-bo.com/id2.html (http://www.sta-bo.com/id2.html)

Rivera Primo offers a "Stiffey" similar design as Sta-Bo, but made out of aluminum.
http://www.americanbagger.com/pdf/stiffey.pdf (http://www.americanbagger.com/pdf/stiffey.pdf)

Glide-Pro Install
http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/1004_hrbp_glide_pro_stabilizing_system/index.html (http://www.baggersmag.com/tech/1004_hrbp_glide_pro_stabilizing_system/index.html)



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

Sta-Bo installed - shows exposed stock isolator
Courtesy of http://www.doofclenas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144649 (http://www.doofclenas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144649)

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

  In this case a "Stiffey" might help to lessen the swagger.  How much does the "Stiffey" increase vibration?   Rick

QuotePic of stock isolater, Glide-Pro, stock with Sta-Bo.  Does anyone have an old stock one they could cut in half to check construction material. Stock has a metal plate of both sides, top ridges are metal with rubber coating, but centers may be solid rubber.

Looks closer... They have a hole in the center..  :hyst:

Seriously how far in the metal ring goes or it may even have a pattern off holes and slots to keep the rubber in place to reduce the chance of complete separation..

I also took pics of the glide pro and the new donuts look to be a dual compound polyurethane.. Probably cast to pored at 2 times..  You can get that stuff pretty consistent if you have a vacuum chamber to pull the bubbles out.. IIRC working with that stuff is pretty dangerous.. (don't care what anyone says)

Good quick reference.. Polyurethane
http://www.mcmaster.com/#polyurethane/=bb2j74 (http://www.mcmaster.com/#polyurethane/=bb2j74)

QuoteMy Sta-Bo is made out of Delrin and is very hard.  Sta-Bo replaced the Delrin with urethane.

Yep I suspect that the acetal one acted more as bushings and let the bushing slip on the inner donut plate.. The later polyurethnae one would flex a little more an act as a filler that didn't compress.

Good quick reference.. Acetal
http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=bb2p3y (http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastics/=bb2p3y)

Max

This thread contains swing arm disassembly tutorial with excellent pictures on a 2007 CVO Ultra Classic FLHTCUSE
While reading information regarding vibration, Sta-Bo has changed their composite material from hard Delrin to a softer urethane compound to address increased vibration.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=20764.0 (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=20764.0)

Thanks for the link..It shows how the stack up errors can accumulate..


Looks like they used the same donut up to 08

07 FLHTC---
47564-86B    HarleyDavidson
MOUNT, SWINGARM          $ 33.99    $ 33.99


09 FLHTC ---
47584-09    HarleyDavidson
RUBBER MOUNT,SWINGAR          $ 33.99    $ 67.98


BTW,
Went to a swap meet to unload a bunch of junk. I had a brand new  FXR / Early Bagger (up to 01?) swing arm rebuild kit that I was trying to dump.. Includes the swing are pivot and all the spacer / bushing / cups etc.. Some guy picks it up and asks about it.. Start talking to him and he's got an 09 that guess what? Handles like a drunken camel in a sand storm.. Since new. Tried 3 different tires so far. Had it to the dealer a few time for the issue.. Even tried the glide pro..  I tried to talk into checking the play but it was probably a little to hard to describe correctly for him to get he concept.. It got busy and he wandered off..

So I guess the new frames aren't immune to the issue.. Increasing trail only slows the oscillation down.. They sure as heck ain't any stiffer.

Max

Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

Quote from: fatboy on March 08, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

Off record from MOCO platform manager 2003:
"We know there are some variances in the steering neck perpendicularity to the swingarm pivot." (old, worn frame jigs)

If that is true then the front and rear wheels move in different planes as they move up and down which, for sure, would cause high speed weave/wobble/instability. :idea:

Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on March 08, 2011, 02:24:49 PM

Quote from: fatboy on March 08, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

Off record from MOCO platform manager 2003:
"We know there are some variances in the steering neck perpendicularity to the swingarm pivot." (old, worn frame jigs)

If that is true then the front and rear wheels move in different planes as they move up and down which, for sure, would cause high speed weave/wobble/instability. :idea:

Bob

You can shim the rear axle, alot of slop in the slot on the swingarm. Shim top or bottom of axle on one side or to get more, shim top one side bottom other side. Easy to get 1 deg this way(1/32"top-1/32"bot.), most are out only 1/2 deg.
Charlie 

Quote from: fatboy on March 08, 2011, 01:56:25 PM
Max,
Have you checked the vertical alignment on your wheels, its more important than horizontal alignment on fixing the high speed wobble.
Charlie

I've checked it a few ways.. In reference the the swing arm blocks.. The drive train sits perfectly in the frame.. You can loosen the front an top mounts and an with the glide pro bushings, the links line right up.. I was planning on comparing the vertical alignment of the wheels by using the rotors as a reference and a precision level  but have not done that yet.. Plan on doing it before replacing the tire.  If its off why mess with the rear axle? Why not adjust the top mount?

Eye ball the rear tire looks to be centered in the rear fender, but I'm not planning on removing the rear fender and using a string to see how it lines up with the frame..

The bike balances well. Ass square in the seat, flat ground, let go of the bars and the bike tracks nice and straight.

Any suggestions on other things to check..

Max

May have been covered already (too lazy to re-read the whole thread), stabizier links worn? On my old bagger after replacing all the usual suspects, those were the last...viola. Also could have been a combination of replacing multiple parts. :nix: Some times hard to point to one component.

edit: spelling

The suckers are like brand new.. Nice and tight.  This bike only has 14K on on it..  All link fasteners have been checked and rechecked.. Right now the top one is off cus I'm messin' with the throttle body.. Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 08, 2011, 03:46:13 PM
Any suggestions on other things to check..
Max

When you go to check the front-to-rear rotors (vertical) start with the frt/rr suspension in bump/compression (tie down the front and  rear). Check and square everything up then release the compression and lift the bike to droop/rebound and see if the relationship between the 2 rotors change. :idea:

Bob
PS- Be sure to closely monitor and correct the frame to level with each measurement.

Gotcha. Interesting test. Would you expect it to change? I was expecting to set the top link first but am not sure it needs it right now..

Max

Max have we talked about the wind lifting the bike up at high speeds because of the fairing dynamics and causing it be unstable. I put the klock works windshield that pushes the bike down and found it to make my bike much more stable at high speeds. You have been busy since I last checked in, 6366 posts. Have you got to number 1 yet.

QuoteStart talking to him and he's got an 09 that guess what? Handles like a drunken camel in a sand storm.. Since new.

My 09 over 100 mphor pushing hard in clover leaf off the interstate, has the same characteristics. Can scare the "Potty mouth" out of you.  Mine is an early 09 (Aug 08), was told it is most likely the neck torque. Bought the Snap-on tool, just haven't had the ambition to tear into it.  First time it happened, I thought: Fixed frame my @ss.  Now I know what to expect.

Tre'

Max
You need to bite the bullet and buy a stabilizer brace ? Believe it or not they do brace the rear swingarm and tighten that tail wagging wobble these baggers suffer from. My 07 is not perfect but I have no problems going through some very rough 70 KPH sweepers two up at 140 kph plus. The bike will give a slight wobble but nothing like the old out of control feeling it had when new with no brace. I have string lined my bike both vertical and horizontal  and have fitted Progressive heavy fork springs , 416 air shocks and there stabilizer brace and trust me the stabilizers do work as advertised.     

Quote from: GoFast..... on March 08, 2011, 09:22:40 PM
Max have we talked about the wind lifting the bike up at high speeds because of the fairing dynamics and causing it be unstable. I put the klock works windshield that pushes the bike down and found it to make my bike much more stable at high speeds. You have been busy since I last checked in, 6366 posts. Have you got to number 1 yet.

Thanks Gofast
I put this down to weak fork triple tree's but after reading your thread I might consider checking out the klock works screen. :up:

(http://www.ccesd.us/assets/image/CCE%20FLF%20tree%20WEB%20release%20copy.jpg)


Looks like a stouter tree

Quote from: hogbag on March 09, 2011, 12:11:49 AM
trust me the stabilizers.     

I've run the stabilizer on a Dyna and FXR an in both cases they didn't make much difference.. The FXR really didn't need it but the Dyna wobbled before and after.. Frequency of the wobble did change .. The biggest difference on the Dyna was 2 things. 1 new tires always made it better. 2. Changing wheels and tire profiles made a drastic difference...  Now it only gets a little twitchy when the tires are worn..I've seen stuffer wheels make a drastic difference 35 years ago.. Did for the Dyna..  I may try the stabilizer but need to validate that the glide-pro is not the answer first.. and probably the tire. This bike got way better when I added the shim but has always felt light at 90.. Shimming does the same thing as the brace.. Controls rear end swagger. On disassembly to install the glide pro I notice that the fork brackets had chewed deeper into the donut..Might be coming loose again.. Late end caps are crud.. I'm sure that there is more than one issue cause the handling problem.

I may try gofasts wind screen solution later but IMO it is not what is causing the current handling issue. I've got the new E3.. I understand where you say they were squirrely for the first 1000 kilometers.. Tread is pretty thick in the middle.. This bike already has springs and shocks.. I will admit that going from the heavy progressive 440s to lighter ones did make a handling a bit worse but I think giving up ride quality for the improvement on sweeper wobbles is not a justified. Bike hands much better at lower speeds.. 30-65 MPH on irregular surfaces, where 90% of my riding is..   

While the lower pinch bolts are tight.. Another common problem is for the fork caps to come loose. That may be the problem here but it requires disassembling the front end to check.. The forks have been into once to change the springs and lowers so there may be an issue there..  Right now I've been messing with the throttle body, air cleaners and exhaust so it's been sitting on the rack..

Mean time my 02 road toad handles great.. but it's got a set of Street glide wheels on it.. Micheline tires. It swaggered when the only difference was tires... A Brazilian Metzler on the back and it handled like crap.

Max

QuoteYou have been busy since I last checked in, 6366 posts.

Yeah but most of them were useless..  :hyst:

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 09, 2011, 08:30:43 AM

QuoteYou have been busy since I last checked in, 6366 posts.

Yeah but most of them were useless..  :hyst:

Max

Not true, I've picked up some good info off of your posts, keep up the good work...

Well I checked the side to side with the glide pro...

Got 0.040..  Got a feeling I was being to nice when I said it handled the same as before..  :embarrassed:  Probably handled a little worse. I thought it was the tire going bad..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/gp3.jpg)

O.040 is then the 0.030  that what I started with on the Electra Float... 

Enough this BS... IMO it don't work.. Yanked the glide pro stiff and it's going back.  I tossed another shim onto the swingarm shaft (got one both sides) and got less then 6 thou..

I checked the alignment and it's right on.. couldn't be better..

Tire is still the POS D402 we'll see if shimming helps..

The problem with the Glide Pro is that it doesn't do anything to correct axial play at the swing arm pivot.. The polyurethane does not have any plates like the stock donuts to limit ooze-out (technical term  :hyst: )

Here is a pick of the glide pro system.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/GP1.jpg)

IMO They screwed up when they dumped the stock donuts.. This is the new improved  :scratch:  unit..

Max

Did you take the bike out after your remove the glide pro kit and you installed more shims to get .006" side to side play?  If so, did that help with what I called the flexing of the bike in corners?  From what I've learned reading your thread, this glide pro kit is too soft?  Just trying to get a good understanding of what your doing.  Thanks.

Quote from: Tbones on March 11, 2011, 11:48:16 PM
Did you take the bike out after your remove the glide pro kit and you installed more shims to get .006" side to side play?  If so, did that help with what I called the flexing of the bike in corners?  From what I've learned reading your thread, this glide pro kit is too soft?  Just trying to get a good understanding of what your doing.  Thanks.

Yes.

Origiinally, I installed one shim.  This time I installed 2..   

Did it help with the cornering? Don't know yet. Bike still on the rack.. You see it here unless I screwed up the handling so much that I cash an die..

Not sure too soft is the word. Lets just say that the newer design does not lend itself to contolling movement along the swing arm axis.  IMO the older glide pro with the urethane inserts in the stock donuts was better because it didn't try to control the lateral movements of the drive train.. The donuts were still there...

Asking questions is good IMO.. The whole idea behind this thread is to discuss the handing issues an try to figure out the root cause. Saying " Well since I installed Speedo Link Deluxe (tm) and Son of Flubber Rubbers(tm) in my Ultra and now I find myself stuck behind GSXR1000s in sweepers at 135, trying to figure out ways to pass.." does little to understand what the added items are doing..

Max

" I find myself stuck behind GSXR1000s in sweepers at 135, trying to figure out ways to pass.."


  You've been hanging out with M.P. too much,  sounds like his kind of rhetoric.     ::)   Rick

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 11, 2011, 09:27:30 PM
Well I checked the side to side with the glide pro...

Got 0.040..  Got a feeling I was being to nice when I said it handled the same as before..  :embarrassed:  Probably handled a little worse. I thought it was the tire going bad..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/gp3.jpg)

O.040 is then the 0.030  that what I started with on the Electra Float... 

Enough this BS... IMO it don't work.. Yanked the glide pro stiff and it's going back.  I tossed another shim onto the swingarm shaft (got one both sides) and got less then 6 thou..

I checked the alignment and it's right on.. couldn't be better..

Tire is still the POS D402 we'll see if shimming helps..

The problem with the Glide Pro is that it doesn't do anything to correct axial play at the swing arm pivot.. The polyurethane does not have any plates like the stock donuts to limit ooze-out (technical term  :hyst: )

Here is a pick of the glide pro system.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/GP1.jpg)

IMO They screwed up when they dumped the stock donuts.. This is the new improved  :scratch:  unit..

Max

Better get the ky Jelly out Refund is out of the question now

QuoteBetter get the ky Jelly out Refund is out of the question now

Again??  Had a colonoscopy  yesterday..  :cry: 

Why is that??


Max

Max, forgot to tell ya,bracket will be delivered Tuesday.

How bout shimming the Glide pro? Just a thought out loud.....

Thanks,,

I thought about shimming the GP just because I was worried about accused as being biased.. but then thought what for?  Aren't they supposed to not need tweaking like that..  Another thing that seems to be an issue is that the urethane without supports will continue to squish more and still have a side flex issue..

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 12, 2011, 07:04:49 AM
Yes.

Origiinally, I installed one shim.  This time I installed 2..   

Did it help with the cornering? Don't know yet. Bike still on the rack.. You see it here unless I screwed up the handling so much that I cash an die..

Not sure too soft is the word. Lets just say that the newer design does not lend itself to contolling movement along the swing arm axis.  IMO the older glide pro with the urethane inserts in the stock donuts was better because it didn't try to control the lateral movements of the drive train.. The donuts were still there...

Asking questions is good IMO.. The whole idea behind this thread is to discuss the handing issues an try to figure out the root cause. Saying " Well since I installed Speedo Link Deluxe (tm) and Son of Flubber Rubbers(tm) in my Ultra and now I find myself stuck behind GSXR1000s in sweepers at 135, trying to figure out ways to pass.." does little to understand what the added items are doing..

Max

Thanks for the update :)...  I understand what your doing and why but I still think it needs to be in conjunction with a brace that helps with reducing the amount of lateral movement especially in corners...  Here's my take on the rubber bushings in the swingarm, if they make these bushings rock hard, more vibrations will get thru to the frame...  So I believe it's a trade off but certainly makes sense on what your doing...  I'm anxious to find out what you feel when you do take your bike out...  Thanks again...

Well maybe the Sta-Bo or Stiffey with the OEM isolators are more effective in tightening up the lateral movement and less likely to flex.  The stock isolators are more oval than round like the Glide-Pro, may be a reason for that.

8 more days til spring.  Thank god.   :teeth:

Quote from: Ridetard on March 13, 2011, 07:00:18 AM
8 more days til spring.  Thank god.   :teeth:

Heck weather yesterday was in the 70s at the house.. In the 50-60 in the mountains.. Got a short 100 mile ride in..

QuoteWell maybe the Sta-Bo or Stiffey with the OEM isolators are more effective in tightening up the lateral movement and less likely to flex.

I do suspect that they help I do wonder how long they last,, Adding preload to the bushings definitely helps..

QuoteThe stock isolators are more oval than round like the Glide-Pro, may be a reason for that.

Not so much "oval" as offset.. They are pretty much round but rubber OD is shifted some.. I suspect that the shift is to support the drive train.. The offset move the swingarm pivot up and forward.. I would expect that it helps to center the pivot from drive train weight and during acceleration in the lower gears..

QuoteI still think it needs to be in conjunction with a brace that helps with reducing the amount of lateral movement especially in corners...

OK I did the 100 miles,, I doubt the brace would help..  Why? Because IMO they aren't stiff enough to have any effect with the swingarm bushing set up tight.. I tried the link system on a Dyna and it only changed the frequency of the wobble. The tightening up of the stock bushings pushed the dance back up to the 80s and 90s.. It was a low as the 70s with the gp..  Interestingly.. motor vibes are only the slightest bit worse but you can feel the road more.. I need to drop tire pressure as I've been running a little on the high side.. Rear tire only has maybe another 2-500 miles in it and it's down to the wear bars...
After the tire, I'm going to try gofasts suggestion of the Klockwerks shield..  Other than tires and wheels it's time to look at other locations.. Bagger wobbles (or dyna wobble) is a problem somewhat in the system as a whole.. I'm running a short shield.. I know part of it has to be the weight on the front end.

FWIW,
This bike handles real well lower speeds (70 and below), rough road, tight corners.. It goes exact where you want it to go. Steering is actually pretty light and neutral for a bike of it's weight. You can lay this bike over and still take you hand of the grip for that occasional wave..  :wink:

Max

Max,
Are you still re-engineering the suspension while running a square tire?
I don't think there is anything that will make the bike feel stable at high speeds when the tire runs on its "edge".

When loads are put through the tire in a high speed corner, undulations are fed into the sidewalls and the tire deforms a bit (differences apply to radials vs bias tires).

Since a tire's sidewall is also a suspension spring (dampened by design only) when the bike (heavy at that) is loaded into a high speed corner, the rounded profile tread will (hopefully) deform and keep the radius constant throughout the corner. Not true when the tire has worn square.

All you have to do is ride a bike with a car tire mounted and run your normal testing roads. You will be amazed at the difference in handling. :crook: :cry: :smileo: :down:

Bob

Maybe it could just be something like the tolerance of the bearing fitting tight or loose in the swing arm that allows the pivot shaft to offset.





[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

"Rear tire only has maybe another 2-500 miles in it and it's down to the wear bars..."

If the rear tire is worn and highly suspect why waste time and money throwing parts at the problem? The tire is well worn? That's the first thing I'd replace after a thorough inspection of the pieces and parts. The tires are an important part of the suspension and your only connection with the road. Tread profile at the contact patch can significantly affect handling characteristics.

QuoteMax,
Are you still re-engineering the suspension while running a square tire?
I don't think there is anything that will make the bike feel stable at high speeds when the tire runs on its "edge".

Well,

:embarrassed:

Technically no... I've been using the square tire to bring out deficiencies in the chassis.. I've been saying all along that the rear tire is almost shot (and it a crappy D402) and it will get replaced with a better one (E3).

QuoteThat's the first thing I'd replace after a thorough inspection of the pieces and parts. The tires are an important part of the suspension and your only connection with the road. Tread profile at the contact patch can significantly affect handling characteristics.

The tire and the axial play on the swing arm pivot are probably the 2 main issue on this bike.. All of the inspected parts were up to spec..

You guys are both right, I'll go ahead and replace the tire today.. I got enough use out of this even though it's only got about 5500 miles on it.. Max

While it's apart for the rear tire check the wheel bearings very closely even though they should last quite a while. I found a Heritage ST missing a rear wheel bearing spacer once. Came that way from HD or their supplier. The wheel bearings were worn as well. I think it was the first or second tire change when I found the problem.

Wheel bearings were good but the isolated drive bearing needs replace.. Bearing is OK but the outer seal was damaged.. Probably by me..  :embarrassed:  Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 13, 2011, 01:25:19 PM

QuoteMax,
quote]
Technically no... I've been using the square tire to bring out deficiencies in the chassis.. I've been saying all along that the rear tire is almost shot (and it a crappy D402) and it will get replaced with a better one (E3).

Your right "square tires to bring out deficiencies", and a new tire will cover it back up.

QuoteYour right "square tires to bring out deficiencies", and a new tire will cover it back up.

All motor cycle chassis have some deficiencies.. You can get too some point where the tire becomes the predominate deficiency. Anyway got the new tire on but was only able to get about 10 miles on it.. For far?? Well I'm going hunting for Gixers..   :hyst:   Max

are you sure you dont have a cracked frame ?
I know people , including myself, that have used the stailizers you have tried , most every stabilizer you have. All of them were happy with one or another that they tried and stuck with .
I have used Sta-Bo's on 2 dressers an 01 and a 99 (I had upgraded to 06 swing arms on both ) Both of which worked perfectly, also on my buddies 02 and another on an 87.
Have you checked your neck bearings and fall away ?
Not questioning your abilities in any way , I just think if nothing has worked for you so far, that has worked well for others, you may be looking in the wrong area.
Just a thought
:banghead:

Nope no crackled frame.. Fall away was checked.. you have to read back through all the messages to see it.  The last issues was the tire.. The only things that were needed and made and any improvement was setting up the axial movements on of the rubber bushing and the rear tire..  Stabo does nothing more then correct an the issue that can be corrected by a 2 dollar shim.. or rubber isolator replacement.

BTW, Are you sure that the Stabo worked for you?  You said you added them during a swing arm upgrade..   Maybe it was the upgrade that fixed your problem?   How many miles since the upgrade,, I wonder how long they will last.. Did you replace the rubber donuts..

Don't be afraid to challenge my findings, I don't care about being right or wrong, I care about finding out what the issues are and what works to fix em..

One thing that came up.. It did get worse as the tire wore but the swingarm bracket also seemed to have dug a little deeper into the rubber.

From the first post here:
"The area that holds the rubber donut is not flat but rounded, allowing the part to dig into the rubber until it hit metal."

Will it didn't hit the metal completely. When I removed them to try the glide pro, they were dug in a little deeper.. This "dinging in" opened the axial movement some.. I'm looking into using earlier swing arm brackets as they have a more squared edge then on the 07s.. They are also a little thicker, beefier.

Max

[quote author=MaxHeadflow
BTW, Are you sure that the Stabo worked for you?  You said you added them during a swing arm upgrade..   Maybe it was the upgrade that fixed your problem?   How many miles since the upgrade,, I wonder how long they will last.. Did you replace the rubber donuts..

Don't be afraid to challenge my findings, I don't care about being right or wrong, I care about finding out what the issues are and what works to fix em..

Max
[/quote]

Actually none of my bikes have ever had a high speed wobble. Except a 95 Classic that I sold at about 1 yr old
The other bikes I worked on were all - new bushings and front motor mounts when I added the Sta-Bo.
On my 99 I had experienced a light feeling from the rear end in high speed curves, meaning that I felt as though it could break loose also a weave/pull as I changed lanes, also at speeds over 80.
My upgrades were done at the same time as Sta-Bo was used AND I made sure my bike was aligned at all time.
My 99 went 60k+ with sta-Bos , the 01 I just finished 2 months ago and I have put on only 9k since then. But they all feel rock solid.
Wish I had more to offer you.

BTW - top motor mount? Good heim Joints ? Front motor mount ?
I'm sure everyone listening is hoping you find the Holy Grail

Thanks for the additional info but I am curious as to what type of baggers they are / were.. If the "classic" you talked about was a road king, It had wire wheels which I'm sure contributes to the dance.. My 02 FLHRC did dance with dunlops on wire wheels or when there was a Brazilian Metzler with mags on the back. In all honesty the Metz was used when it went on but had about 3000 miles left on it.. The RK has been handling very well with Bridgestone Excedra G702-3 tires and Micheline commanders.

The links have are in real good shape, I've checked them more then once. I'm sure that I've not found the holy grail, just another piece of the puzzle.  From what I see the Glides with the fork mounted fairings need more work than the Kings. I suspect that anything that is loose gets amplified through the fairing.

The second 0.035 spacer helped and now that the tire has been placed, the wobble demons are gone.. Mostly higher freeway speeds. I'll hit my test sweeper tomorrow. On smooth ground you cannot feel the motor vibrations through the frame so the additional spacer did not increase vibes.. The only concern that I have now is if the additional preload decreases the life of the donuts..

Max

wire wheels , yup that's another variable.
Butt no I never had or will have wire wheels(on a bagger ), mags period.

OK as far as fairings.
87 FLHS heavy frame never a wobble or anything- way before low and kewl was the style.
84 Same thing heavy frame never a wobble etc
they were fairingless- BUTT I did put batwings on both at different times and still never had a problem or even an inkling of one.
The first time I even knew that I had a problem was on the 95 Classic- Batwing bike FLHTC

my 99 was also a classic batwing bike FLHTCPI
01 RK is a mag wheel bike my buddy bought brand new and sold to me about 6 years ago. FLHR
I switched the windshield and put a batwing on, never had any problems or wobbles with the bike at any time.
About 6 months ago I tore it down and put a 113 S&S in to replace the twinky.
When I did I went for the 06 swing arm and Sta-Bo's up grade.
I finished the bike about 2 months ago and in the mean time I found a FLT 84 stlye fairing for $50 and decided to mount it for my break in trip to Cabo San Lucas MEX.
I put 9000 miles on it and have only ridden with the FLT / Road GLide front end so far.
No Wobble issues from Floride through mexico mountains and up to Yosemite in the snow and back. So far a perfect bike.
The front end will change out to the RK or batwing at any time, so if I see a difference when I change I will update you.
Again good luck

OH Yeah Elite 3's front and rear - new when I left for Mexico .
Up until then I always ran Dunlop 402's stock tires front and rear
The dealer would install them for $1, plus the price of the tire which was $125 +-

Well,

After the e3 were broke in the bike has been handling real well.. Being a glutton for punishment I reinstalled the glidepro.

First I updated my indicator setup..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/Sa1.jpg)

I measure axial play with 2 spacers and the rest stock..  Pretty much the spaced stock setup.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/SA2.jpg)

Got 0.006 movement using a pry bar between the frame and swing arm..

You can see the polyurethane bushing bulging under compression.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/SA6.jpg)

I installed the GP and got most 0.040.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/Sa4.jpg)

Don't see how this is going to help make the bike track truer.. It was doing pretty good with the spacers and the stock rubber donuts..

Max

I will interested on what you came up with the GP. I am getting some issues is corners still but my gut is telling me it has something to do with the front end. I have E3's with about 3k on them.

QuoteI will interested on what you came up with the GP.

You running one of the new Glidepros?    The one that eliminates the stock donuts?
Max

Yes the new one with the front motor mount also.

Quote from: 7hogs on March 29, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
Yes the new one with the front motor mount also.

We just pulled that kit off a bike that the owner said if he had to run the bike with the increased vibration he would need one of these:
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq211/spdcomp/mouth_guard.jpg)
Bob

Mine is smooth. I torque my front motor less than the instructions after I called them and it really help. I cannot remember what that was but I think it was 12 ft lbs but don't hold me to it call him. This is also a 117"

Quote from: 7hogs on March 29, 2011, 06:03:00 PM
Mine is smooth. I torque my front motor less than the instructions after I called them and it really help. I cannot remember what that was but I think it was 12 ft lbs but don't hold me to it call him. This is also a 117"

The OEM mount has a steel center sleeve so it makes no difference how tight the bolt is. Does the aftermarket front mount not use a steel sleeve?
Bob

Thankyou  :soda:

Quote from: FLTRI on March 29, 2011, 05:44:38 PM

Quote from: 7hogs on March 29, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
Yes the new one with the front motor mount also.

We just pulled that kit off a bike that the owner said if he had to run the bike with the increased vibration he would need one of these:
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq211/spdcomp/mouth_guard.jpg)
Bob

:hyst:

Wouldn't surprise me if it was one of those Delron insert types..

I agree about the front motor mount.  I tqed mine down hard and vibration wasn't all that bad..

One thing that is interesting is that the bike seems to handle fine after the rear E3 got a few hundred miles on it..(hogbag was right on that one)  As far as handling goes the bike has the sightless twitch at 90 in the sweeper. It's a down hill corner which seems to be the nemesis of most bikes.. I definitely wouldn't trade it for a slower handling later bike..  :teeth: The GP is the slightest bit worse than shimming the stock rubbers..

I suspect with everything aligned and a bad tire, the tire induces an axial load on the swing arm pivot and the drive train moves from side to side..  The after market heim joint appendages control the drive train horizontal movement and improve the handing.. You get the same results by increasing the preload on the donuts. The latest Glide pro didn't do as well as well as preload when the tire was shot but right now it seems only the slightest bit twitchier than the shimming method.

I talked to Jake and he claimed it would handle like a sort bike and would be glad to fix it.. But since I installed the new tire, he'd think I have a screw loose if I took the bike to him now and said it handled funny.. (No comment RED).

I'll probably pull it out in a few days and sell it..

One thing for sure.. Worn D402s Suck!

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 29, 2011, 07:02:38 PM
One thing for sure.. Worn D402s Suck!
Max

Another thing for sure.. Any make/model/size tire that has been worn square Suck! :wink:
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on March 29, 2011, 05:44:38 PM

Quote from: 7hogs on March 29, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
Yes the new one with the front motor mount also.

We just pulled that kit off a bike that the owner said if he had to run the bike with the increased vibration he would need one of these:
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq211/spdcomp/mouth_guard.jpg)
Bob

What Kit was that?

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 29, 2011, 07:02:38 PM

Quote from: FLTRI on March 29, 2011, 05:44:38 PM

Quote from: 7hogs on March 29, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
Yes the new one with the front motor mount also.

We just pulled that kit off a bike that the owner said if he had to run the bike with the increased vibration he would need one of these:
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq211/spdcomp/mouth_guard.jpg)
Bob

:hyst:

Wouldn't surprise me if it was one of those Delron insert types..

I agree about the front motor mount.  I tqed mine down hard and vibration wasn't all that bad..

One thing that is interesting is that the bike seems to handle fine after the rear E3 got a few hundred miles on it..(hogbag was right on that one)  As far as handling goes the bike has the sightless twitch at 90 in the sweeper. It's a down hill corner which seems to be the nemesis of most bikes.. I definitely wouldn't trade it for a slower handling later bike..  :teeth: The GP is the slightest bit worse than shimming the stock rubbers..

I suspect with everything aligned and a bad tire, the tire induces an axial load on the swing arm pivot and the drive train moves from side to side..  The after market heim joint appendages control the drive train horizontal movement and improve the handing.. You get the same results by increasing the preload on the donuts. The latest Glide pro didn't do as well as well as preload when the tire was shot but right now it seems only the slightest bit twitchier than the shimming method.

I talked to Jake and he claimed it would handle like a sort bike and would be glad to fix it.. But since I installed the new tire, he'd think I have a screw loose if I took the bike to him now and said it handled funny.. (No comment RED).

I'll probably pull it out in a few days and sell it..

One thing for sure.. Worn D402s Suck!

Max

Why dont you give him a shot at it?You skeered he might get it better?

You willing to buy the thing if it don't do anything?? Not scared just tired of wasting my time on it.. I was thinking I could always wait until the tire squared up again..

Max

I also tightened my GP front mount tight about 20, because at 12 lbs the lock nut wasn't even touching yet.

cling

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 29, 2011, 07:02:38 PM

Quote from: FLTRI on March 29, 2011, 05:44:38 PM

Quote from: 7hogs on March 29, 2011, 05:35:55 PM
Yes the new one with the front motor mount also.

We just pulled that kit off a bike that the owner said if he had to run the bike with the increased vibration he would need one of these:
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq211/spdcomp/mouth_guard.jpg)
Bob

Yes, Max, I second that worn 402's suck. My 08 SG pretty suddenly got a handling problem that I went nuts looking for. In July it handled fine, August got the bagger wobble and everything else. Laced wheels had some loose spokes, but not too bad (I am changing them to cast), adjusted the steering fall off per the manual. When I changed out the Dunlop 402's, fixed it.
The tires had 4/32" thread left.
:hyst:

Wouldn't surprise me if it was one of those Delron insert types..

I agree about the front motor mount.  I tqed mine down hard and vibration wasn't all that bad..

One thing that is interesting is that the bike seems to handle fine after the rear E3 got a few hundred miles on it..(hogbag was right on that one)  As far as handling goes the bike has the sightless twitch at 90 in the sweeper. It's a down hill corner which seems to be the nemesis of most bikes.. I definitely wouldn't trade it for a slower handling later bike..  :teeth: The GP is the slightest bit worse than shimming the stock rubbers..

I suspect with everything aligned and a bad tire, the tire induces an axial load on the swing arm pivot and the drive train moves from side to side..  The after market heim joint appendages control the drive train horizontal movement and improve the handing.. You get the same results by increasing the preload on the donuts. The latest Glide pro didn't do as well as well as preload when the tire was shot but right now it seems only the slightest bit twitchier than the shimming method.

I talked to Jake and he claimed it would handle like a sort bike and would be glad to fix it.. But since I installed the new tire, he'd think I have a screw loose if I took the bike to him now and said it handled funny.. (No comment RED).

I'll probably pull it out in a few days and sell it..

One thing for sure.. Worn D402s Suck!

Max

Max
Great info on shimming the donuts I will check mine ASAP. Thanks for saving me some coin on the glide pro upgrade. Now we need a fork brace incorporated around the fender to tighten up the forks so we can give those GSXR and Ducati's  some hurry up through the corners. 

Quote from: hogbag on April 01, 2011, 03:08:36 PM
...Now we need a fork brace incorporated around the fender to tighten up the forks so we can give those GSXR and Ducati's  some hurry up through the corners.

You could bolt all the add-on do-dads in the world on these  Touring bikes and they will NEVER be competitive in the corners with a true Sportbike, even the little 600's make the HD's look like they are barges in the ocean compared to an F1 boat. :hyst:
Bob

Quote from: FLTRI on April 01, 2011, 03:19:56 PM
look like they are barges"
Bob

:hyst: My buds have told me for years, hopping up my bagger, is like putting a Keith Black Hemi in a garbage truck.

Bob
I have been riding bikes for over 40 years. I often leave  inexperienced sports riders behind on my 07 batwing tourer through the corners. 

Quote from: hogbag on April 02, 2011, 01:53:49 PM
Bob
...I often leave  inexperienced sports riders behind on my 07 batwing tourer through the corners.

Sorry, I should have qualified my statement: When ridden by same quality, experienced riders Sportbikes, even small ci 600cc engines, will run circles around Harley Baggers, even if the Harley has a ton more power!
Bob

Yes it doe's after breaking a belt 03 Ultra i felt the swing arm and it was very worn you can't buy the glide pro here in aussie is the genuine swing arm kit OK to use.

Has anyone ever replaced the donuts with an identical sized steel part?  Will the vibe be to bad to take?  May not work if the MoCo didn't hold the tolerances that tight in the rubber pockets relative to each other.Seems like the correct place for rubber dampers is in the transmission.  Correct me if my perception is wrong but all of the fixes, from urethane (stiffer, closer to a solid steel) to tracking fixes are only band aids on the dampening being in the wrong place.  Trying to put rubber in the the transmission tube wouldn't be a bolt on fix and would take much more work.  What about cutting the rear mount off the transmission and either welding or bolting a new tube on that has a much larger ID for rubber bushings and making the frame, swing arm connection solid?

I've been watching this thread and others about wobble.  I'd really like an '04 Screamin Eagle Glide but am put off by all the talk about wobble on pre 2009's so I'm leaning toward the new frame.

QuoteTrying to put rubber in the the transmission tube wouldn't be a bolt on fix and would take much more work.

It wouldn't work it only creates flex between the tranny and the swing arm if you do that.. Max

Is the camel still drunk?

Nope, Just hung over..

Max

Hows the camel after Jake worked on it ?

It's better.. The bike really didn't handle all that bad after the tire change but the aliment he preform did help a bit..

Max

My 11' Road Glide Ultra has a serious wobble at about 40mph. Should I click on the cruise and life my hands it will begin to wobble and increase in wobble  until I return my hands. Nothing at 45 -80; runs true and straight and without the slightest hint of wobble, but at 40mph O'Boy it is not Good. I'm used to riding a bagger with bat wing and never had an issue like this. Asked my friendly dealer, who also ride a FLTR and he said his did something similar and that I shouldn't removed my hands ;  :-D ; well Duh!  Any suggestions?

Id check the neck bearing adjustment. Sometimes they seem to like being tighter. I had one do that recently. Almost like some of them dont have the bearing races seated all the way...?

Quote from: Zeushawg on May 22, 2011, 11:06:34 AM
My 11' Road Glide Ultra has a serious wobble at about 40mph. Should I click on the cruise and life my hands it will begin to wobble and increase in wobble  until I return my hands. Nothing at 45 -80; runs true and straight and without the slightest hint of wobble, but at 40mph O'Boy it is not Good. I'm used to riding a bagger with bat wing and never had an issue like this. Asked my friendly dealer, who also ride a FLTR and he said his did something similar and that I shouldn't removed my hands ;  :-D ; well Duh!  Any suggestions?

Try increasing the front tire pressure to 50-55lbs and retest. If the wobble goes away the tire is defective/bad.

Tires can easily be ruined if run with low tire pressure for extended periods. Low pressures cause excessive internal heat which, if run long enough, can separate tread from carcass.

By increasing the pressure it will temporarily keep the tire from squirming, causing the low speed wobble.

If the wobble persists, take the bike back to the dealer and have them verify the wobble and contact Tech Services. They will have any and all records and resolves of this issue.

HTH,
Bob

Quote from: Zeushawg on May 22, 2011, 11:06:34 AM
My 11' Road Glide Ultra has a serious wobble at about 40mph. Should I click on the cruise and life my hands it will begin to wobble and increase in wobble  until I return my hands. Nothing at 45 -80; runs true and straight and without the slightest hint of wobble, but at 40mph O'Boy it is not Good. I'm used to riding a bagger with bat wing and never had an issue like this. Asked my friendly dealer, who also ride a FLTR and he said his did something similar and that I shouldn't removed my hands ;  :-D ; well Duh!  Any suggestions?

This is a known issue with '11 Road Glide models. A Service Bulletin was issued which references the complaint and updates front neck bearing adjustment / fall away specs for Touring and Road Glide models. The new fall away spec for the '11 Road Glides is 1 1/2 swings. The Batwing faired bikes are 3 swings.

Frank

IMO all 3 of these replies are on the money.. Not sure if the RGU has a tour pack but if it does.. Remove any weight in it and see how it goes.. The 40 mph shimmy on the old Lead-wings with Vetter fairing and bags and pizza box could be any of these issues..

Macks

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on May 22, 2011, 07:32:18 PM
IMO all 3 of these replies are on the money.. Not sure if the RGU has a tour pack but if it does.. Remove any weight in it and see how it goes.. The 40 mph shimmy on the old Lead-wings with Vetter fairing and bags and pizza box could be any of these issues..

Macks

???

Fingers were running faster than my brain..  :embarrassed:  Mouth does that occasionally also..

On the subject of wobble. My 02 RKC (street glide wheels, Emulators front 440s rear, commander tires) finial decided to enter the "You think you can dance" competition at about 95.. Thing was that the rear Commander tire was down to the rear wear bars.. I could find another commander and wanted a rear 150 tire (rules out E3 unless you wan to spend 40 bucks more on a 160), so I bought a Pirrelli Night Dragon.. I think it's better than the Commanders.. Nice and sticky. Handles rock solid at higher speeds. Need to go chase down some Busas..  :bike:

Max

I have noticed an increase in vibrations in my 2003 road king and it generally just felt "rougher" since around 13000 miles. I changed my front mount to a velva ride and noticed an improvement but still not as smooth as new. I also put in a progressive touring link and this did tighten up the handling and removed the high speed weave.At 33000 I just replaced the rubber doughnut rear swingarm mounts per Max's advise and my bike now rides and handles like new again. I suspect the add on devices do a good job of covering up for worn engine mounts but the cost to just replace them seems to be less. I initially thought that the increase in vibes might have been the big bore kit installed about the same time as the front mount, but that appears not to have been the case. Thank you Max for your input. I honestly beleive unless you routinely ride at triple digit speeds the updated swingarm mounts at about 37 dollars plus a new front mount is a cost effective solution. I may pull the touring link when I install the new S&S header pipes as they bolt to the trans in the same space as the touring link with stand offs. However according to the manufacturer Khrome Werks, you can simply machine one of the standoffs and still use the touring link. For what it's worth the touring link did make my bike handle rock solid at high speeds and was only 200 bucks. Is it true the new S&S true dual head pipes with hidden crossover bump horsepower and torque without the torque dip?

great post :agree:

Here is something HarleyFranco found when replacing the donuts..

Guess which is old and which is new.

Max

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/donutold.jpg)

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/donutnew.jpg)

That appears to be too large of a differance to be explained by "compressability" of the old doughnuts. Do you think that when harley updated the parts to the B part number they increased the thickness? Mine did not appear to be too worn to the naked eye by the way but made a large difference in feel. Definately explains the runout. :scratch:

Bruce,

Thanks for posting those pics for me.

I have only changed the donut on the left side so far(time contraints), but I have already noticed an improved ride.  The bike doesn't wallow as bad over imperfections in the pavement.  I'll be changing the right side one soon and will let everyone know how it did.

I'm thinking that with both donuts installed that there will be over a .070 difference in the holding power from the old donuts, no wonder it was wobbling.   As a side note, that old donut has 128k on it.

Frank

Max you might need to shim those donuts every 10 thousand mile. I wish Someone could make some isolasticss for the swing arm like my Norton Commando. The stabilizer brace does tighten up the swing arm but the shims are on my ASAP list after seeing those photo's.
Thanks Max great thread.

My Commando never did handle very good.. Even after spending time setting the side to side play in the bushings. I suspect that it was the stiffness in the rims/wheels. For some reason a good running Bonneville with new tires was much more fun..

Max

We've seen those rear mounts do that since theyre existence.

I run a top link on the commando instead of the rubber mount. I owned a few triumph's but never a big fan. What dirt bikes are you into Bruce. I have 3 old VMX KTM's and a 2001 VOR

Other than setting the isolastic suspension up, I didn't do too much to the bike other then trying to keep it running which was a challenge. When it ran it ran great. Was faster than a stage 1 cb750k.. Mileage sucked.. About 25 mpg..

I ride an 02 XR400 in the dirt. All it's ever needed was minor maintenance, tires, sprockets, chain..

Bruce

Speaking of "Isolastic", has anyone tried the neoprene filled replacement engine links or "turnbuckles" sold by the velva ride people or V-Thunder or competition cams? Obviously using these would completely remove the metal to metal link between drivetrain and frame but would they be stiff enough to support the engine in both the vertical and lateral planes? Could these be the Holy Grail of FL smoothness? These should prove to be interesting if they don't adversely affect handling and contibute to the camel contractions.

Quote from: coastie56 on June 02, 2011, 09:55:58 PM
...Could these be the Holy Grail of FL smoothness? These should prove to be interesting if they don't adversely affect handling and contibute to the camel contractions.

They've been around for 10+ years so I'll bet you can find some who swear by them and some who noticed nothing, yet a few who said it affected the wobble...the wrong way cause they allow movement which is tied directly to alignment.
HTH,
Bob

mY road king handled badly until i spent 139.95 on a progressive stablizer.Most retail shops want 199.95 but American Classic or Eastern Performance on the web sells the kit for 139.95 to your door.Takes about a hour to install and really fixed my problem.Were ever i aim the bike in the corners or high straight away speeds the bike handles flawless and follows through with no upset..

Great bikes the xr's my sons mate asked me what reliable dirt bike to buy. My advice was a xr Honda and he brought a yamaha 450 4stroke after two years  it needed a complet rebuild 4 grand later he traded it on a xr400 and has been happy ever since.

Quote from: coastie56 on June 02, 2011, 09:55:58 PM
Speaking of "Isolastic", has anyone tried the neoprene filled replacement engine links or "turnbuckles" sold by the velva ride people or V-Thunder or competition cams? Obviously using these would completely remove the metal to metal link between drivetrain and frame but would they be stiff enough to support the engine in both the vertical and lateral planes? Could these be the Holy Grail of FL smoothness? These should prove to be interesting if they don't adversely affect handling and contibute to the camel contractions.

Don't know.. have a set that I'm thinking about using on and FXR.. The material is specially formulated urethane, BTW and not neoprene.

Quote from: ordwsl on June 03, 2011, 06:55:19 PM
mY road king handled badly until i spent 139.95 on a progressive stablizer.Most retail shops want 199.95 but American Classic or Eastern Performance on the web sells the kit for 139.95 to your door.Takes about a hour to install and really fixed my problem.Were ever i aim the bike in the corners or high straight away speeds the bike handles flawless and follows through with no upset..

Sounds like a good fix but the point of this thread is to do the same thing for less money. Always make sure the components you have are up to date and in good condition before spending money on some after market fix.

Quote from: hogbag on June 05, 2011, 07:09:21 AM
Great bikes the xr's my sons mate asked me what reliable dirt bike to buy. My advice was a xr Honda and he brought a yamaha 450 4stroke after two years  it needed a complet rebuild 4 grand later he traded it on a xr400 and has been happy ever since.

Newer bikes don't last but they handle better and are much lighter.. XR400s are pretty much bullet proof if you take care of them,,

Max

Can the new frame (2009-2011) Touring bikes benefit from using a Glide Pro, etc., or is this mod only useful for earlier year models?
Thanks

Quote from: DrSpencer on June 17, 2011, 09:23:23 PM
Can the new frame (2009-2011) Touring bikes benefit from using a Glide Pro, etc., or is this mod only useful for earlier year models?
Thanks

Interesting question. 
Does the new 09 up chassis have the same donuts as the pre 08 bikes.

Nope they are different.. Glidepro has a prototype version of donuts for 09 up bikes. Not sure if it's been released yet.

Max

I talked to Jake the other day and ordered the setup for my 09. He said they are trickling in and I should get mine next week. I also have the true track on, probably leave it on when I get the glide pro. Can't hurt.

Does your 09 handle like a drunken camel. True track and glidepro ?

Quote from: hogbag on June 19, 2011, 07:26:17 PM
Does your 09 handle like a drunken camel. True track and glidepro ?

Actually, I didn't have a reason for putting it on...it's just that if there is a way to make my bike handle better and be safer, I want it. You never know what you didn't have until you get it! :wink:

:agree: Its better to be safe than sorry
I went the same way with my 07 bike. Progressive brace, Progressive heavy fork springs, Progressive 416 air shocks with 50 psi, Made a huge difference and turned my bike from a mid speed cruiser to a high speed mile eater.

Ok, I finally got around to changing the right side donut, it was more worn than the left side, over .040 difference between the old and the new.'

Frank

Frank
How many miles on the donuts ( bike)

Over 130k on the bike now.  Problem started when the dealer installed a new transmission under warranty, not sure why they wouldn't have replaced the donuts then.  I'll know better how the bike handles tomorrow when I ride to work.  But with just the one donut it helped alot.

Frank

Ok, after 140 miles the ride was noticably improved.  Bike wasn't dancing on the concrete grooves like before.  When I would ride 2 up never had a problem but now one up feels like 2 up.  Nice and solid.  Still need a little more adjusting in the steering head bearings though.
But overall much better ride.

Frank

welp i tried the "MaxMod" today and my shim measured right at .037. the FLHX has well over 40k on it and it was wallowing pretty good (scary) when pushed hard in curves. didn't really notice a problem in town or under about 50-60mph but over that it would undulate pretty good. it seems to have improved it in the 50-70% range but i believe i also have an issue with the steering head bearings needing adjusted and the rear E-3 tire is pretty squared off and nearing the end of it's life. i guess what surprised me most was the vibration....or lack there of. one would think tightening up the bushings would cause an increase in vibrations but mine did the exact opposite. not to any great degree but the vibrations are noticibly less. like Max said..."So Easy a Caveman Can Do It", the cost was ZERO and it took a total of about 30-45 min!!! any time you can improve a Harley for ZERO cost it's  blessing. "Thanks Max"!!!  anyway, just wanted to report on my experience.
Dick

Second the Thank You to Max. Really am able to enjoy the ride more  now that the bike handles like it did new. Jungleman also changed out the doughnuts and says his EGlide handles the rain grooves in Detroit better also.

You guys are welcome.. Also don't underestimate the ill handling caused by a bad tire for sure.. On may favorite test sweeper, the road king danced real well at 80 when the Michelin was down to the wear bar.. Installed a Pirelli Night dragon and at 90 the was saying, "Hey I still got plenty more ground clearance"   :wink:  Like that tire.. The e3?  IMO not as good as the Michelin or the Pirelli but I really need to try a set Pirelli on the EGC.. Look forward to when Michelin starts making Commanders again.. 

Max

.

I've always liked their stuff:
     www.bikernet.com/pages/story_detail.aspx?id=9275]http://www.[url=http://www.bikernet.com/pages/story_detail.aspx?id=9275]www.bikernet.com/pages/story_detail.aspx?id=9275 (http://www.[url=http://www.bikernet.com/pages/story_detail.aspx?id=9275)[/url]

You link is broken..

http://www.bikernet.com/pages/story_detail.aspx?id=9275 (http://www.bikernet.com/pages/story_detail.aspx?id=9275)

While ii couple help with front end stiffness, this statement is a bit of an exaggeration..

QuoteThe Custom Cycle Engineering FLH Touring model billet aluminium top triple tree will improve the handling of pre-2009 models by 100 percent, and that of post-2009 models by 20-30 percent, in my estimation.

Making sure that the fork caps on the stockers are tight probably does about the same.. 

Max

Will any of these mods benefit a 2011 Touring bike, or are they primarily for 2008 and older?
Thanks

It definitely a possibility.. I've talked to at least 3 different people with 09 or later that said they had the wobble.. All have them had been to the dealer more than once with the problem.. On the later bikes there are 2 sets of donuts to deal with and unfortunately no way to adjust the front motor mount if the alignment is off.

Jake at glide-pro was busy working on his fix of 09-ups and talkin' to dealers when I picked up my 07..

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on July 12, 2011, 12:22:15 PM
It definitely a possibility.. I've talked to at least 3 different people with 09 or later that said they had the wobble.. All have them had been to the dealer more than once with the problem.. On the later bikes there are 2 sets of donuts to deal with and unfortunately no way to adjust the front motor mount if the alignment is off.

Jake at glide-pro was busy working on his fix of 09-ups and talkin' to dealers when I picked up my 07..

Max

My 2011 Street Glide doesn't seem as sure-footed in 75-80 MPH sweepers as it does in all other riding conditions. In high speed corners, it gives a very slight, uneasy, wobbling feeling.

Would this be considered 'Bagger Wobble', or is that condition much more obvious.

Thanks

The early bagger wobble is more like a death wobble with out the tank slapper effect. Its very scary the first time it happens because its normally mid way through a high speed sweeper at 70 + mph. Its not uncontrollable but very intimidating to say the least. The first time it happened to me I stopped the bike thinking I had a flat back tyre or a busted frame.     

Quote from: hogbag on July 12, 2011, 02:22:40 PM
The early bagger wobble is more like a death wobble with out the tank slapper effect. Its very scary the first time it happens because its normally mid way through a high speed sweeper at 70 + mph. Its not uncontrollable but very intimidating to say the least. The first time it happened to me I stopped the bike thinking I had a flat back tyre or a busted frame.   

That doesn't describe my 2011 Street Glide, at all.

With regard to my slight wobble/shimmy, am I simply experiencing normal HD performance from my bike in 75-80 MPH sweepers?

Thanks

QuoteThat doesn't describe my 2011 Street Glide, at all.

Well I wouldn't rule it out.. At 70 or higher is the basis for this discussion.. There are different levels from a nice little rumba to a full out Tahitian Dance.. All bikes will do it to some extent.. When things are shaken enough that your Tassels start are falling off, you got problems..

Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on July 12, 2011, 02:51:28 PM

QuoteThat doesn't describe my 2011 Street Glide, at all.

Well I wouldn't rule it out.. At 70 or higher is the basis for this discussion.. There are different levels from a nice little rumba to a full out Tahitian Dance.. All bikes will do it to some extent.. When things are shaken enough that your Tassels start are falling off, you got problems..

Max

Given my bike (2011 SG), and the situation I described above, where on the bike should I first start to look for fixes/mods/etc?

Thanks again

Quote from: DrSpencer on July 12, 2011, 03:12:10 PM
Given my bike (2011 SG), and the situation I described above, where on the bike should I first start to look for fixes/mods/etc?

Thanks again

Replace your shocks with the std 1" longer shocks. That will provide more travel for your suspension.
Put whatever psi in them to keep the bike from bottoming.
Make sure your tire pressures are correct for the tires you run. (look at the "Max Cold Pressure" on the side of the tire.
HTH,
Bob

Quote from: DrSpencer on July 12, 2011, 03:12:10 PM

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on July 12, 2011, 02:51:28 PM

QuoteThat doesn't describe my 2011 Street Glide, at all.

Well I wouldn't rule it out.. At 70 or higher is the basis for this discussion.. There are different levels from a nice little rumba to a full out Tahitian Dance.. All bikes will do it to some extent.. When things are shaken enough that your Tassels start are falling off, you got problems..

Max

Given my bike (2011 SG), and the situation I described above, where on the bike should I first start to look for fixes/mods/etc?

Thanks again

Progressive 940's  :up:

I have built a 2000 rd glide for speed runs,I built a great motor bu did not research the chassis at all.Went to limestone Maine in July omg,what a wobble!![dunkin camel].know back to the drawing board.Dave pererwitz was up there with a beautiful bike that he built for his daughter,rubber mount,he had replaced the cleave blocks with aluminum blocks[solid].maybe a little more vibration than I want.I have read through this post,and all great information,but what is going to work better for me trying to go really fast.have any one any experience with the set up on the g2 street pro frames?

As an older bike (2000), hopefully you have completely rebuilt the chassis:
1) New alignment links
2) New Cleave Block swing arm rubbers
3) New swing arm bushings
4) Check/adjust alignment

If the above has not been accomplished adding do-dads claiming to fix wobble may help but not cure the underlining worn out parts issue(s).
Replacing the frame in lieu of identifying and repairing/replacing the problem is not, IMO, a proper fix.

Just my $.02,
Bob

I'm sorry, I meant the heim joint links that they put from the cleave block area to the swing arm.All the things that you mentioned will be replaced and checked.

I've read this thread with great interest. While it was going on, my Glide-Pro ride system was being shipped to me to install on my 05 FLHRCI. It made me nervous as to the value for the dollar I spent on their system.

All that said, the Glide-Pro system on my bike made a considerable difference in the ride stability and smoothness of my ride. I waited to put on a few thousand K before deciding. I have to admit I really like how the Glide-Pro system preforms. Especially  on those ruts that run along the road that used to make my bike feel like the frame is twisting under me. I look for those ruts and ride in them to feel nothing in terms of twisting or uncomfortableness.

Just my 2 cents worth.
:smiled:

QuoteI waited to put on a few thousand K before deciding.

Well ride it for another 6 years and swap back to a new set of stock rubbers.. Let us know it you feel any difference..  :wink:  Max

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on August 25, 2011, 07:19:05 AM

QuoteI waited to put on a few thousand K before deciding.

Well ride it for another 6 years and swap back to a new set of stock rubbers.. Let us know it you feel any difference..  :wink:  Max

:up:

Quote from: FLTRI on August 25, 2011, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on August 25, 2011, 07:19:05 AM

QuoteI waited to put on a few thousand K before deciding.

Well ride it for another 6 years and swap back to a new set of stock rubbers.. Let us know it you feel any difference..  :wink:  Max

:up:

:up:  I just replaced the swingarm rubber on my '02 with 50K.  New rubber measured .060" thicker  each side than what I took out.  Thing is I really didn't notice how bad it had gotten, but I do notice how much better it is.   :smile:

Quote from: MaxHeadflow on August 25, 2011, 07:19:05 AM

QuoteI waited to put on a few thousand K before deciding.

Well ride it for another 6 years and swap back to a new set of stock rubbers.. Let us know it you feel any difference..  :wink:  Max

I can't speak to a comparison, the only way to do that is to swap the mounts out for 'new' stock ride it and compare. All I can say is that the Glide Pro system made it considerably better without any added vibration. I'm happy!!!!

What is better? Spending 400 bucks, 100 bucks, or 2bucks if you get the same results?

Max

Has anyone tried this setup?

http://www.riveraprimoinc.com/html/new-suspension.html (http://www.riveraprimoinc.com/html/new-suspension.html)

I do like Max's innovation!

Does a fellow just buy replacement bushings for his year and model from Harley?  Do you just install them per the manual?

My Velva ride front engine mount were a few bucks more than an OE mount. It is urethane instead of rubber and it came from V Thunder and comp cams. The rubber doughnuts cost about 40 dollars a piece and they are all pretty easy to replace with a friends help and a hydraulic type jack/lift (like the ones from Sears) and your shop manual. They are many postings on the net, one of the best is Jake's on his glide pro website.

Alright so I have found this THREAD and have read through it a couple of times. 

Bringing it back from the dust......

I must say that there was some interesting information here but some of the R&D effort has not been completed so I have a few questions and perhaps we can fill in the blanks:

Obviously Max the story line begins with your bike handling like a drunken camel in a sand storm.  So given that you measured your axial movement for both your 2002 RKC (.005") and your 05 EG (.030") it shows that bikes can exist with different axial run out since the number on the EG was .030" of axial movement you decided to make a shim/spacer out of sheet stainless steel material that was close and at .035" in thickness. 

I understand the consistency of you leaving your worn out tire on the bike throughout your testing procedures as you were trying to take out the "drunken camel" even while having the worn out tire, knowing if you were successful with a bad tire things would only be wonderful with a good tire.

Question#1:  What was the size of the outer diameter of the shim/spacer, do you have a number to provide to us?  I realize you drilled a 5/8" inner diameter hole for it to fit but what does the outer diameter need to be at? 

Question #2:  After you put the .035" shim/spacer on the left side, why didn't you remeasure the axial end play again after you took the bike out for a couple of rides which would have allowed the bike to "settle in" again, to see if the axial endplay was completely taken out by the .035" shim/spacer or whether there was still some increase in the axial end play/run out?

Question #3  I grasp your initial logic as to why you chose to quickly put another .035" shim/spacer on the right side of the bike while you were replacing the rear tire since the tire would be off of the bike giving you an easier approach to removing the swing arm shaft/axle and easily inserting the shim/spacer.  But why did you do add the .035" shim/spacer to the right side without first actually checking the end play with just the one shim/spacer on the left side as I mentioned above, you must have had a reason not obvious to me at least?

Question #4  Why did you assume that adding another .035" spacer was going to provide a additional improvement to the end play run out?  Obviously one thing that was going to happen for sure is that by adding the additional .035" shim/spacer to the stack would put the spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts in a more compressed state, but the question remains to what purpose did you choose to do this, without first checking to see if they were needed at all.  The only thing I can figure is that you did it to provide a "balance" to the stack, ie: added to left thus added to the right as well.  But my contention would be why not  pick material that was .018" to the left and then .018" to the right for such a balance. 

Perhaps you had a reason for this but didn't offer it via the THREAD, as you simply added it, the interesting comment you made was:

"....The second 0.035 spacer helped and now that the tire has been placed, the wobble demons are gone.. Mostly higher freeway speeds. I'll hit my test sweeper tomorrow. On smooth ground you cannot feel the motor vibrations through the frame so the additional spacer did not increase vibes.. The only concern that I have now is if the additional preload decreases the life of the donuts.."

Who knows for sure whether the .035" shim/spacer added to the right side was any benefit at all because you incorporated the very change you were avoiding the entire time, which was a tire replacement which was done at the very same time you added the second shim/spacer of .035" to the right side of the bike.  So realistically we don't know whether the shim really did anything at all except to introduce more compression to the spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts of which you answered affirmatively that at least no new vibration was added to the feel of the bike but as you stated the question at least was formulated in your mind as to whether the additional preload would decrease the life of the "donuts" (spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts).  The given fact is we all recognize that adding a new tire will change another element to the entire feel and cornering ability of any bike correcting the errors we are feeling to some degree. 

Speaking of the spacers (I keep saying spacers because the parts book defines them as spacers which is different for sure)/isolators/bushings/donuts (all are terms used through this thread as descriptions) towards the end of the THREAD you introduce a photo showing something Harley/Franco found when comparing an old Spacer/isolator/bushing/donut to a new one, so what we don't know is whether or not the old one was simply compressed through wear and time or whether the new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts now are wider, I am assuming none of us will know this for sure unless someone has an old OEM NEW spacer/isolator/bushing/donut? 

I grasped that you did not want to simply introduce new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts into the equation from the beginning because to do so would be approximately $70.00 of cost for two new ones vs a $2.00 shim/spacer if in fact over time the new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts simply came back to a narrower width due to time and wear on the bike. 

Question #5   Which leads me to the discussion as to whether or not the mere fix is simply installing new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts after so many years or miles?

Question #6  Or whether simply sticking with ones old spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts as long as they are not visually cracked and going with a metal shim/spacer is really the appropriate and most sensible option?

Both 77S-Glide and coastie56 thanked you for helping them to take out their "drunken camel" characteristics but we don't know exactly what they did....77S-Glide mentions putting in a .037" shim/spacer but he does not state whether that was because of the shim/spacer thickness he chose or whether that was due to the amount of axial run out he found upon measuring or even if he did any maeasuring?

We also do not officially know whether coastie56 measured his axial end play movement as well and then add the approrpriate width spacer/shim based upon run out or whether he simply chose to install a shim/spacer of .035" thickness on the left side or both sides or whether he chose to replace the spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts with new ones as well and had the results he thanked you for.

Question #7  Finally, so Max, it's been 9 months anything else to add to the end results? 

By now you might be towards the middle of that tire perhaps or perhaps you haven't really even ridden it that much to be able to add any more to this discussion.  You mentioned above that you would provide a riding reflection as to how it handled with two spacers/shims but you never did. 



As for my story line and why I have such interest in all of the R&D and reason for bringing this back to life, is that with my 2002 RKC, I am running OEM Road King spoked "mag" wheels, (got rid of the RKC spokes a long time ago) currently have 3,000 mile avon venums, OEM "original" front engine mount, OEM "original" spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts with 37,000 miles on the bike.  This bike has ALWAYS had oscillating, pogoing, wallowing movements in corners above 65 MPH, moving away from the spoke wheels to the RK mag wheels provided improvement several years ago, but it is stll going on, I just back off the throttle a little and keep going when it happens and don't do a death grip.....but I realize this is no solution actually.

So, 3 weeks ago before I actually really found this thread, I put a set of STIFFY's in with the old spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts, and my riding results have been the following:

I took the bike on I 70 from Denver up to Beaver Creek which is a pretty fast track to figure all of this out on, and while the highway is posted at 65 MPH and there are many sweeping curves on this interstate, I was trying to keep myself spaced from cars and was going up these hills between 75-85 and some times touching 90 mph per hour on the rarest of occasions and found myself sneaking peeks at my speedo to see that at some points I was at 80+ mph while in certain sweepers and found the bike pogoing much less of course, where as before I would find myself backing off more quickly knowing that I didn't like that pogoing or wallowing feel. IT was obvious that the "stiffy's were playing a significant role in helping to isolate the issues of my riding characteristics, so I would say the stiffys were a success in that realm, BUTTTTTTTTTT the vibration from those STIFFYS was and is HUGE and to me it's making the ride more about foot vibration than cornering with pogo's.

I am to the point of just taking out the STIFFY's and reevaluating the process again.  I mean IT's HORRIBLE!!!!!  I put my foot on my highway pegs and it's so miserable it causes a pain in your foot to just rest them there...the vibration is so severe.....

It's to the point I was on another 250 mile ride this past weekend, out to eastern colorado where you have straight roads like Dorothy and toto have in Kansas and it was miserable making my highway pegs rendered useless. 

So what to do.....

Question #8  Which brings me right back to a new set of isolators or going the route of a shim/spacer,  I am not sure I can figure out the method of using the dial indicators the way you did and coming up with an actual appropriate end play number with any success.  PanHeadRed knows it's takes all I could do to just check my run out appropriately on my engine, I can't imagine trying to figure out how to do what you did appropriately with any consistant results.....but in order to properly incorporate the methodology of a SHIM/SPACER one might have to be able to have the skill set of successfully checking the axial movement end play before even thinking about a shim/spacer application.  Or maybe just go with a .035" spacer/shim and throw the R&D out with the bath water....?

The other confusing part of course is that your 2002 RKC also only had .005" of axial movement end play.  Which shows you that all of this stuff is a moving target for sure.

Question #9  So I am wondering really what is the solution here:

New spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts
New front engine mount
stay with the old spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts and go with a .035" shim/spacer?   and to what thickness?

Did someone say give my MOUSE ANOTHER COOKIE?????

LET THE DAMN THING BREATHE.....

Overall this was a good THREAD but there were some worthless posts

Regards,


"Classic"

Quote from: ClassicRider2002 on June 19, 2012, 11:50:35 AM
Alright so I have found this THREAD and have read through it a couple of times. 

Bringing it back from the dust......

I must say that there was some interesting information here but some of the R&D effort has not been completed so I have a few questions and perhaps we can fill in the blanks:

Obviously Max the story line begins with your bike handling like a drunken camel in a sand storm.  So given that you measured your axial movement for both your 2002 RKC (.005") and your 05 EG (.030") it shows that bikes can exist with different axial run out since the number on the EG was .030" of axial movement you decided to make a shim/spacer out of sheet stainless steel material that was close and at .035" in thickness. 

First it's not really a runout.. Run-out implies that something is round and spinning..

Quote

I understand the consistency of you leaving your worn out tire on the bike throughout your testing procedures as you were trying to take out the "drunken camel" even while having the worn out tire, knowing if you were successful with a bad tire things would only be wonderful with a good tire.

The biggest problem was that it took 2 tires to fix the probelm

QuoteQuestion#1:  What was the size of the outer diameter of the shim/spacer, do you have a number to provide to us?  I realize you drilled a 5/8" inner diameter hole for it to fit but what does the outer diameter need to be at? 

Don't remember but you could use 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches. The main thing is that it is smaller than the donut OD and bigger than the inner bearing spacer OD..

QuoteQuestion #2:  After you put the .035" shim/spacer on the left side, why didn't you remeasure the axial end play again after you took the bike out for a couple of rides which would have allowed the bike to "settle in" again, to see if the axial endplay was completely taken out by the .035" shim/spacer or whether there was still some increase in the axial end play/run out?

I did and I got about the same as the RK

QuoteQuestion #3  I grasp your initial logic as to why you chose to quickly put another .035" shim/spacer on the right side of the bike while you were replacing the rear tire since the tire would be off of the bike giving you an easier approach to removing the swing arm shaft/axle and easily inserting the shim/spacer.  But why did you do add the .035" shim/spacer to the right side without first actually checking the end play with just the one shim/spacer on the left side as I mentioned above, you must have had a reason not obvious to me at least?

Just to see what it would do? Can you give me a message number.. Can't see where I added the second spacer but know I did.. I think that it was about part way though the E3 on the rear..

QuoteQuestion #4  Why did you assume that adding another .035" spacer was going to provide a additional improvement to the end play run out?  Obviously one thing that was going to happen for sure is that by adding the additional .035" shim/spacer to the stack would put the spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts in a more compressed state, but the question remains to what purpose did you choose to do this, without first checking to see if they were needed at all.  The only thing I can figure is that you did it to provide a "balance" to the stack, ie: added to left thus added to the right as well.  But my contention would be why not  pick material that was .018" to the left and then .018" to the right for such a balance. 

More compressed state.. See if it would stiffen things up..
You missed this comment..
"I only made one 0.035 shim.. As a result I had to shift my butt 0.0175 to the right to compensate.. "

Quote
Perhaps you had a reason for this but didn't offer it via the THREAD, as you simply added it, the interesting comment you made was:

"....The second 0.035 spacer helped and now that the tire has been placed, the wobble demons are gone.. Mostly higher freeway speeds. I'll hit my test sweeper tomorrow. On smooth ground you cannot feel the motor vibrations through the frame so the additional spacer did not increase vibes.. The only concern that I have now is if the additional preload decreases the life of the donuts.."

Who knows for sure whether the .035" shim/spacer added to the right side was any benefit at all because you incorporated the very change you were avoiding the entire time, which was a tire replacement which was done at the very same time you added the second shim/spacer of .035" to the right side of the bike.  So realistically we don't know whether the shim really did anything at all except to introduce more compression to the spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts of which you answered affirmatively that at least no new vibration was added to the feel of the bike but as you stated the question at least was formulated in your mind as to whether the additional preload would decrease the life of the "donuts" (spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts).  The given fact is we all recognize that adding a new tire will change another element to the entire feel and cornering ability of any bike correcting the errors we are feeling to some degree. 

Speaking of the spacers (I keep saying spacers because the parts book defines them as spacers which is different for sure)/isolators/bushings/donuts (all are terms used through this thread as descriptions) towards the end of the THREAD you introduce a photo showing something Harley/Franco found when comparing an old Spacer/isolator/bushing/donut to a new one, so what we don't know is whether or not the old one was simply compressed through wear and time or whether the new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts now are wider,I am assuming none of us will know this for sure unless someone has an old OEM NEW spacer/isolator/bushing/donut?   

I grasped that you did not want to simply introduce new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts into the equation from the beginning because to do so would be approximately $70.00 of cost for two new ones vs a $2.00 shim/spacer if in fact over time the new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts simply came back to a narrower width due to time and wear on the bike. 

You missed the question number here.. You are right we don't know.. One could also think that it could be simple manufacturing tolerances..

QuoteQuestion #5   Which leads me to the discussion as to whether or not the mere fix is simply installing new spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts after so many years or miles?

That's the first thing you should do but since I only had about 14K on the bike total, they looked OK and there isn't a compression / size spec on the donuts, I figured they were good.. I could have run out and bought new ones then compared them I guess.. Shimming was cheaper..

Quote
Question #6  Or whether simply sticking with ones old spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts as long as they are not visually cracked and going with a metal shim/spacer is really the appropriate and most sensible option?

Was for me..

QuoteBoth 77S-Glide and coastie56 thanked you for helping them to take out their "drunken camel" characteristics but we don't know exactly what they did....77S-Glide mentions putting in a .037" shim/spacer but he does not state whether that was because of the shim/spacer thickness he chose or whether that was due to the amount of axial play run out he found upon measuring or even if he did any maeasuring?

Maybe he just winged it and it worked?

QuoteWe also do not officially know whether coastie56 measured his axial end play movement as well and then add the approrpriate width spacer/shim based upon run out or whether he simply chose to install a shim/spacer of .035" thickness on the left side or both sides or whether he chose to replace the spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts with new ones as well and had the results he thanked you for.

Question #7  Finally, so Max, it's been 9 months anything else to add to the end results? 

E3s suck as they wear out.. Commander IIs much better.

QuoteBy now you might be towards the middle of that tire perhaps or perhaps you haven't really even ridden it that much to be able to add any more to this discussion.  You mentioned above that you would provide a riding reflection as to how it handled with two spacers/shims but you never did. 

Well, acutally wore out the E3s and repalced them with Commander IIs.. FWIW I also completely rebuilt the front end with new bushings and lighter springs.. The rebuild didn't help the handling with the E3s but it road a bunch smoother. 

Quote
As for my story line and why I have such interest in all of the R&D and reason for bringing this back to life, is that with my 2002 RKC, I am running OEM Road King spoked "mag" wheels, (got rid of the RKC spokes a long time ago) currently have 3,000 mile avon venums, OEM "original" front engine mount, OEM "original" spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts with 37,000 miles on the bike.  This bike has ALWAYS had oscillating, pogoing, wallowing movements in corners above 65 MPH, moving away from the spoke wheels to the RK mag wheels provided improvement several years ago, but it is stll going on, I just back off the throttle a little and keep going when it happens and don't do a death grip.....but I realize this is no solution actually.

So, 3 weeks ago before I actually really found this thread, I put a set of STIFFY's in with the old spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts, and my riding results have been the following:

I took the bike on I 70 from Denver up to Beaver Creek which is a pretty fast track to figure all of this out on, and while the highway is posted at 65 MPH and there are many sweeping curves on this interstate, I was trying to keep myself spaced from cars and was going up these hills between 75-85 and some times touching 90 mph per hour on the rarest of occasions and found myself sneaking peeks at my speedo to see that at some points I was at 80+ mph while in certain sweepers and found the bike pogoing much less of course, where as before I would find myself backing off more quickly knowing that I didn't like that pogoing or wallowing feel. IT was obvious that the "stiffy's were playing a significant role in helping to isolate the issues of my riding characteristics, so I would say the stiffys were a success in that realm, BUTTTTTTTTTT the vibration from those STIFFYS was and is HUGE and to me it's making the ride more about foot vibration than cornering with pogo's.

I am to the point of just taking out the STIFFY's and reevaluating the process again.  I mean IT's HORRIBLE!!!!!  I put my foot on my highway pegs and it's so miserable it causes a pain in your foot to just rest them there...the vibration is so severe.....

It's to the point I was on another 250 mile ride this past weekend, out to eastern colorado where you have straight roads like Dorothy and toto have in Kansas and it was miserable making my highway pegs rendered useless. 

So what to do.....

Not sure what STIFFY's are.. Are they something like Stabo?

QuoteQuestion #8  Which brings me right back to a new set of isolators or going the route of a shim/spacer,  I am not sure I can figure out the method of using the dial indicators the way you did and coming up with an actual appropriate end play number with any success.  PanHeadRed knows it's takes all I could do to just check my run out appropriately on my engine, I can't imagine trying to figure out how to do what you did appropriately with any consistant results.....but in order to properly incorporate the methodology of a SHIM/SPACER one might have to be able to have the skill set of successfully checking the axial movement end play before even thinking about a shim/spacer application.  Or maybe just go with a .035" spacer/shim and throw the R&D out with the bath water....?

The first thing you should do is make sure that the components you have are in good condition, rubbers mounts links. Steering bearings snug and smooth.

Quote
The other confusing part of course is that your 2002 RKC also only had .005" of axial movement end play.  Which shows you that all of this stuff is a moving target for sure.

I suspect that the quality control that sets the preload on the donuts is poor. There is about 10 to 15 items that can controll the spacing that sets the preload. On of the reasons I advocate the dial indicator.

QuoteQuestion #9  So I am wondering really what is the solution here:

New spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts
New front engine mount
stay with the old spacers/isolators/bushings/donuts and go with a .035" shim/spacer?   and to what thickness?

You can do this but I don't put much value in replacing the front mount as an solution unless it looks bad..

Here is what I'd do..

1. inspect the front mounts and linkage. Make sure that the link is tight.
2. Check the top link and donuts.. at 37k you can replace em but may be wasting money.. If they look good you can try preload but I'd really figure out how to use a dial indicator.  I suspect that too much preload can damage the donut. I don't know what that preload is so it's better to know what you got then guess.
2.5 check steering bearings / fall away.. Playing with the preload may find you a sweet spot..
3. perform and alignment on the motorcycle. Glide pro website has some ideas one how to do it..
4. Stiffer wheels are good. Stock wires suck.. One of the first things I did to my 02 RK classic was replace the stock wires with Street-glide wheels. If you are still running the stock suspension I'd work the front and rear over.. I'm sure that some of the pogoing you are experiencing is from poor damping front and rear and mushy springs up front. The second things I did to the RKC were to add Racetech emulators, springs and played with the rear shocks.. I could never get the stock rears to work well changing oil  so I swapped em for 440s..  Not sure 440s were the best but they were low mileage, used and cheap.. They work pretty well.

Quote
Did someone say give my MOUSE ANOTHER COOKIE?????

LET THE DAMN THING BREATHE.....

Overall this was a good THREAD but there were some worthless posts

Regards,


"Classic"

Sometime I howl at the noon..
There are always worthless posts.. Some of them are probably mine..

Max

Quote from: Max Headflow on June 19, 2012, 08:01:20 PM

QuoteQuestion #3  I grasp your initial logic as to why you chose to quickly put another .035" shim/spacer on the right side of the bike while you were replacing the rear tire since the tire would be off of the bike giving you an easier approach to removing the swing arm shaft/axle and easily inserting the shim/spacer.  But why did you do add the .035" shim/spacer to the right side without first actually checking the end play with just the one shim/spacer on the left side as I mentioned above, you must have had a reason not obvious to me at least?

Can you give me a message number.. Can't see where I added the second spacer but know I did.. I think that it was about part way though the E3 on the rear..

Yes, here are the QUOTES and MESSAGE numbers for your reference, the 1st one:

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 11, 2011, 09:27:30 PM

Re: Does your bagger handle like a drunken camel in a sand storm?
Reply #152 on: Friday, March 11, 2011. 09:27:30 PM.

Well I checked the side to side with the glide pro...

Got 0.040..  Got a feeling I was being to nice when I said it handled the same as before..  :embarrassed:  Probably handled a little worse. I thought it was the tire going bad..

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/gp3.jpg)

O.040 is then the 0.030  that what I started with on the Electra Float... 

Enough this BS... IMO it don't work.. Yanked the glide pro stiff and it's going back.  I tossed another shim onto the swingarm shaft (got one both sides) and got less then 6 thou..

I checked the alignment and it's right on.. couldn't be better..

Tire is still the POS D402 we'll see if shimming helps..

The problem with the Glide Pro is that it doesn't do anything to correct axial play at the swing arm pivot.. The polyurethane does not have any plates like the stock donuts to limit ooze-out (technical term  :hyst: )

Here is a pick of the glide pro system.

(http://i414.photobucket.com/albums/pp229/bwoltz1/GP1.jpg)

IMO They screwed up when they dumped the stock donuts.. This is the new improved  :scratch:  unit..

Max

And the 2nd one:

Quote from: Max Headflow on March 14, 2011, 01:40:42 PM

Re: Does your bagger handle like a drunken camel in a sand storm?
Reply #175 on: Monday, March 14, 2011. 01:40:42 PM.

The second 0.035 spacer helped and now that the tire has been placed, the wobble demons are gone.. Mostly higher freeway speeds. I'll hit my test sweeper tomorrow. On smooth ground you cannot feel the motor vibrations through the frame so the additional spacer did not increase vibes.. The only concern that I have now is if the additional preload decreases the life of the donuts..

Max

Not sure what STIFFY's are.. Are they something like Stabo?


Rivera Primo stiffy.mov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBPdpQMA-bU#ws)

Quote from: Max Headflow on June 19, 2012, 08:01:20 PM
Here is what I'd do..

1. inspect the front mounts and linkage. Make sure that the link is tight.
2. Check the top link and donuts.. at 37k you can replace em but may be wasting money.. If they look good you can try preload but I'd really figure out how to use a dial indicator.  I suspect that too much preload can damage the donut. I don't know what that preload is so it's better to know what you got then guess.
2.5 check steering bearings / fall away.. Playing with the preload may find you a sweet spot..
3. perform and alignment on the motorcycle. Glide pro website has some ideas one how to do it..
4. Stiffer wheels are good. Stock wires suck.. One of the first things I did to my 02 RK classic was replace the stock wires with Street-glide wheels. If you are still running the stock suspension I'd work the front and rear over.. I'm sure that some of the pogoing you are experiencing is from poor damping front and rear and mushy springs up front. The second things I did to the RKC were to add Racetech emulators, springs and played with the rear shocks.. I could never get the stock rears to work well changing oil  so I swapped em for 440s..  Not sure 440s were the best but they were low mileage, used and cheap.. They work pretty well.

I should have mentioned I have been through my front end on the 2002 RKC 5 years ago with the race tech emulators and RT springs, and 20W Fork Oil, set up professionally, but hit a pot hole and dented front fender.  Fixed Fender and Repainted.

Next changed the springs to Progressive Springs with proper preload, and left the race tech emulators installed with 20W Fork Oil and also dented front fender again upon hitting pot hole in road.  currently in the process of putting different fender on after it is painted without bondo...

:gob:

Solution to this might be quit hitting pot holes.....but what are you going to do, I am not sold on the RACE TECH EMULATORS.....I know, I know, become more proficient at seeing the road.....

Now I am considering the Progessive mono cartridge fork set up for the front end.  So the front end is being addressed once again.  "MAYBE" the design of the cartridged gas system by progressive is the better idea ? ? ?

I am currently running the Progressive 440's in the rear (12" with normal coil/spring set up) and have been for several years now.

Thank you for your input......   :up:  :up:   :up:

Pondering options.....wanting to rid myself of the buzzzzzzz! and pogoing! and oscillating......

Upon finding the references you asked for above it does appear that you did actually check the axial end play after installing the second .035" shim/spacer as you mention your end play being .006".

So why would the end play which started out initially at .030" for you be at .006" axial end play, after you had already first addressed the axial end play and added the first shim/spacer on the left which was at .035" and then after adding another .035" shim/spacer on the right side end up with .006" axial end play, am I missing the math here ? ? ? ?

Regards,

"Classic"

Check your wheel bearings too.

QuoteQuestion #3  I grasp your initial logic as to why you chose to quickly put another .035" shim/spacer on the right side of the bike while you were replacing the rear tire since the tire would be off of the bike giving you an easier approach to removing the swing arm shaft/axle and easily inserting the shim/spacer.

Thanks for the  message number.
I didn't do while I was replacing the tire.. I did it when I pulled out the glidepro..

QuoteUpon finding the references you asked for above it does appear that you did actually check the axial end play after installing the second .035" shim/spacer as you mention your end play being .006".

So why would the end play which started out initially at .030" for you be at .006" axial end play, after you had already first addressed the axial end play and added the first shim/spacer on the left which was at .035" and then after adding another .035" shim/spacer on the right side end up with .006" axial end play, am I missing the math here ? ? ? ?

The problem is that you are trying to apply math to this setup at 2 points in time,.. Early on, I mention that I didn't like the later end caps as they don't support the bushings like the old ones.. They can dig into the donuts.. With time they can loosen.. This depends on how much extra rubber was molded onto the donut. It also possible that the donuts I have compressed some..

Stiffys are steel Stabos.. It's interesting that on the Stiffy, one needs to add a washer to the Stiffy on the 07s / 08s, where earlier ones don't need it.. If adding the Stiffy helped the problem then the spacers should also.. with less vibes.

It's good to know what you've done already to the bike.. I doubt that going to progressive cartridges will help that much as long as the Racetecs a functioning properly.  Did you lower the front end?

What handle bars are you running? Seat change? The wobble can be rider induced.

Again alignment will amplify wobbles.

See if you can find some stock length shocks to try..

Max

IMHO...I think stock setup works just fine. Obviously if you have worn out parts then thats a problem but this little bit of axial movement being measured in this thread isn't, IMHO, what's causing the wobble.  The wobble is the nature of the beast form the reversed triple trees.  If the rear was the problem with these bikes then the FXR's would have the same issue but the only time you hear of handling with an FXR is when someone is praising it.

:potstir:

Hmmm....this thread is somewhat exhausting. Somewhere along the way I get lost, and it doesn't help that I don't fully understand some of the descriptions because I've never taken one apart.
But I recently purchased an '02 Road King and it's handling is not confidence inspiring and it does seem to wallow from time to time. Don't have much to compare it to, it's only my third Harley, and I bought the other 2 brand new. This one has 38K miles and it's my first FL series. Love the bike but the handling makes me nervous in anything but slow maneuvers, and yes, I realize it's a Harley and am not expecting it to handle like a GSXR.
Wondering where to start, was considering the Glide Pro but it seemed way overpriced for what it is, and I was thinking maybe I should replace the stock swingarm bushings as a start - but that was just an educated guess. That was before I read this thread.
Thoughts and/or advice??? 

Quote from: sfmichael on June 21, 2012, 11:16:19 PM
Thoughts and/or advice???

All I can say is I put a Bagger Brace on my 05 Glide 3 years ago and it will never come off. Of all the money I've spent on the bike that was probably the best investment.
Rick

Quote from: sfmichael on June 21, 2012, 11:16:19 PM
Hmmm....this thread is somewhat exhausting. Somewhere along the way I get lost, and it doesn't help that I don't fully understand some of the descriptions because I've never taken one apart.
But I recently purchased an '02 Road King and it's handling is not confidence inspiring and it does seem to wallow from time to time. Don't have much to compare it to, it's only my third Harley, and I bought the other 2 brand new. This one has 38K miles and it's my first FL series. Love the bike but the handling makes me nervous in anything but slow maneuvers, and yes, I realize it's a Harley and am not expecting it to handle like a GSXR.
Wondering where to start, was considering the Glide Pro but it seemed way overpriced for what it is, and I was thinking maybe I should replace the stock swingarm bushings as a start - but that was just an educated guess. That was before I read this thread.
Thoughts and/or advice???

IMHO, begin with basic bike servicing. Replace the swing-arm isolators with the upgraded thicker isolator.  And loosen your front motor mount and inspect for tears, or cracks.
http://www.moccsplace.com/images/mount/mount.htm (http://www.moccsplace.com/images/mount/mount.htm)

From our 2002 parts book the swing-arm isolator/spacer is part # is 47564-86A
The upgraded part # is 47564-86B

QuoteBut I recently purchased an '02 Road King and it's handling is not confidence inspiring and it does seem to wallow from time to time.

All the standard questions apply. You need to verify that the bike is mechanically up to snuff.  New rubbers at that mileage is probably a good thing.. Stock suspension leaves a bunch to be desired..

Max

This is one of those threads you have to commit to reading and understanding.....if you take it slowly and cut and paste into a word document file you can pick out all of the specifics of the THREAD....and then reread.

The only difficult part of this whole thread is how max did his dial indicators and set it up, while I get the concept, I am not in possession of several dial indicators nor do I have the methodology of performing what he did.....with any huge success.

So my final analysis is that for my 2002 RKC, I have gone ahead and purchased the three primary rubber pieces:

2 ~ new rubber isolators which are referred to in this thread as, bushings, donuts, spacers, or isolators
1 new front motor mount

I also have the stiffys as well.

So I will give consideration to the following.....

It seems none of us officially know what the width of a 2002 touring bike Isolator, spacer, bushing, donut had for width prior to use, so we don't know if the new isolators have been made to be wider or not from the factory because of their different part number.  So since we do not know this, and I have to start somewhere, I will measure them with my caliper before installing them and record their measurements for future references....it only seems plausible that they will "crush" under torque a certain amount thus it seems feasible that creating a new shim/spacer will be my next venture into this project of sorts.  I have no other place to go other than Max's previous efforts so it seems that creating a shim/spacer of .035" in thickness seems a direction to head.  Thus I will attempt with my friends at ACE hardware to see if they have any spacers of the right outer dimensions that will accommodate the space behind the isolators.  If unsuccessful there then I will have several machined for me  and place into position on both sides.....

Part of Max's theory on all of this was where is the problem and what can be done to alter the problem.  IE: a two dollar shim/spacer vs new isolators or stiffys, or glide pro parts or stabos, or anything else that was a significant purchase. 

As for me I appreciate his effort and at this point if a 2.00 shim/spacer helps then so be it.  Right now I have a miserable vibration with less pogoing and wallowing, but I would prefer less pogoing and less wallowing with no vibration.  I would almost take the pogoing and wallowing over the miserable vibration. 

I am not going to modify my 440's from 12" to 13", I am considering the race tech emulators I have in there and going to do some more research on those....I believe I have them set up correctly, but maybe I just need some more preload to avoid having my front fender dented as I continue to hit pot holes in the road.....that's my only negative thoughts about the race tech emulators and I thought that perhaps the Progressive mono cartridges might help with this specific issue and might be a improvement upon the race tech emulator set up however Max's views on that seem to feel as though this may not pan out.  So before I dump the race tech emulator set up, perhaps I will call them (race tech R&D) ONE more time and reassess my parts in there with them before I trash their product any further....No more dented front fenders....when hitting a pot hole....arrgh...I believe my "fall" is correct and my alignment issues are correct.... I am also not motivated to change my wheels beyond those that I have.....so I will work within the these self prescribed limitations and make the bike do what it can do to that extent.

It's just those corners at 70+ MPH I am trying to take out that allusive pogoing and wallowing.....just trying to make it a bit tighter....but all of this WITHOUT vibration.  I am hopeful to have these new parts gathered soon.  My only guess is that this is a 10 year old bike with 37,000 miles and so perhaps the front motor mount is tired, and so are the isolators so it's like ok let's start over and see where we need to go.....

For this thread I appreciate Max's input and efforts.  Too many times guys come in with ideas but you never get to read the end results....At least this topic has had some attempt at figuring things out.

Regards,

"Classic"

You gettin paid by the word?
lol
Later,
Ray

Quote from: rayfeldt on June 22, 2012, 11:04:11 AM
You gettin paid by the word?
lol
Later,
Ray

:hyst:

if you are going with the Stiffy's, you will not need the shims (.035) for the rear,  I just rebuilt my mounts front and rears,  I use to run the Progressive link with my set up (2000 Road King) with updated new style swing arms.  along with Sta-bo bushing.  with the spacers in, I was getting less than .005 movement.    after rebuilding with isolater and front mount.  I eliminated the spacer and the Link,  and assembled, I am now getting just under .007 movement.  and that is not rocket science because your moving the swing arm with a 3 foot pry bar.   anyhow,  you are adding the Stiffys and they will do what the spacer was doing before and put more force to the isolator.

the only reason I eliminated the Prog. Link is the Bake Plus one oil pan.  otherwise would have kept it. 

You guys running the Glide-Pro really should check them.  Here's a couple pics of a friend's Glide-Pro isolators after about 10,000 miles.
Mine looked very similar with less mileage.  Back in 2011 we both replaced ours with the new isolator part # 47564-86B.  I added the Stiffey's.



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

I don't run them,  what did Glidepro say about them ?   

Quote from: JohnCA58 on June 23, 2012, 05:18:27 AM
I don't run them,  what did Glidepro say about them ?

Jake of Glide-Pro's customer service is excellent!  He warrantied the isolators by replacing with new.  He says the adhesive used at the time failed and they've since improved the type of adhesive used.  Three different urethane pieces are glued together.  Each urethane piece is of a different durometer hardness.  IMHO, but he's the one doing the R&D, the isolators should be made of one piece.  And the Glide-Pro isolators are not offset like the Harley isolators.  Harley obviously designed the offset isolators for a reason.

QuoteIt seems none of us officially know what the width of a 2002 touring bike Isolator, spacer, bushing, donut had for width prior to use, so we don't know if the new isolators have been made to be wider or not from the factory because of their different part number.

More important we don't know what the designed width is between the end caps or the width between the the ends of the swing arm.. These 2 items set the preload on the donuts.

QuoteThus I will attempt with my friends at ACE hardware to see if they have any spacers of the right outer dimensions that will accommodate the space behind the isolators.

Sorry that I made it so hard for you.. I used a pieces of left over stainless sheet metal from an old appliance.. Drilled the hole it a Unibit and cut the outside with a pair of aviation snips.. Probably used a sharpie and socket to draw the outside..

QuoteI am not going to modify my 440's from 12" to 13",

Still have the stockers laying around.. You only need to try them.. See what they do to the wobble.. Damping on them is suficient to determine if ride height / frame geometry is the issue.

QuoteI am considering the race tech emulators I have in there and going to do some more research on those....I believe I have them set up correctly, but maybe I just need some more preload to avoid having my front fender dented as I continue to hit pot holes in the road....

If you think that because you managed to bottom the forks there is something wrong with the emulators you are probably barking up the wrong tree. Most of what better suspension is going to do is keep the tire on the ground better when you really start pushing the bike. On my RK I bottomed the suspension hard enough for the fender hit the crash bar last weekend.. Since the fender is already dented, no harm no foul..  :wink:  If you are bottoming the front suspension regularly, you got problems. Once in a while on a pothole or dip is to be expected..

Quote from: Bagger on June 23, 2012, 06:28:13 AM

Quote from: JohnCA58 on June 23, 2012, 05:18:27 AM
I don't run them,  what did Glidepro say about them ?

Jake of Glide-Pro's customer service is excellent!  He warrantied the isolators by replacing with new.  He says the adhesive used at the time failed and they've since improved the type of adhesive used.  Three different urethane pieces are glued together.  Each urethane piece is of a different durometer hardness.  IMHO, but he's the one doing the R&D, the isolators should be made of one piece.  And the Glide-Pro isolators are not offset like the Harley isolators.  Harley obviously designed the offset isolators for a reason.

Now you know why I sold mine off.. I figured that after some time they'ed fall apart.. I'm not sure what Jake used to glue the Urethane together.. It would have to be some super adhesive. I would have thought that since it's a molding process that they would mold one section to another when the first section is not completely cured or dry. It might even be a little wet to allow the to hardnesses intermingle. This would create a gradual amount of change in the harness over to sections.. If it's a clear line between the 2 harnesses, that surface will see stresses could eventually cause separation.. The issue is worse with the initial mold to the steel.. One of my concerns is how well the fronts hold together.. Jeff managed 30K? Wonder how his are..

Max

Quote
So why would the end play which started out initially at .030" for you be at .006" axial end play, after you had already first addressed the axial end play and added the first shim/spacer on the left which was at .035" and then after adding another .035" shim/spacer on the right side end up with .006" axial end play, am I missing the math here ? ? ? ?

Found the message on what the play was after the first shim.. Bottom of message 21.. Again something probably crushed.. Good thing is that adding the shim did very little to cause vibration..

Max

Not trying to butt in but I have a question. Did you guys have these problems when your mileage was under 10k? If so, after making sure that all the obvious things bearing preload, tire pressure etc was correct, what was the one or two things you did to correct it?

My 2008 Electra Glide just hit 48,000 kms (approx. 30,000 miles) and it has always had the infamous wallow in high speed corners just like my previous 2000 Electraglide. I've never been too concerned about the wallow as it is a gentle reminder that I am probably going too damn fast in the first place. :smileo:

Have always replaced tires on previous Harleys with the stock Dunlops but after returning from a 6,200 km ride to Arizona, this time decided to go with the Elite 3s front and back. My local dealer quoted me almost $600 dollars (plus install, plus tubes, plus rim strips, plus tax.....ouch!!!) for new 402s but after doing some research, decided to try the Elite 3s at $324 dollars delivered to my door.

Took the Glide out for a good long test ride last night after getting everything back together and I can not believe the difference in ride and handling. 100% smoother riding over bumps, does not get all squirrely on pavement seams, and turns into corners much easier.

Have not had a chance to take the Glide through any high speed sweepers yet but based on the improvement in every other aspect of ride and handling, hopefully the wallow will also be improved. Anyway, don't mean to hijack this thread but just wanted to share this story as I could not believe the improvement in over all ride and handling versus the stock OEM tires, even on my "old style" frame.

Now I am wishing I had installed these new tires before my trip to Arizona... Other than tires, everything else on my suspension is bone stock original and still seems to be working just fine.

Now I just have to figure out where to spend that extra $500 dollars I saved by ordering and installing new tires myself.... :wink:

Wait til you get some miles on the E3s.. Commander IIs are better..

Max

Quote from: Max Headflow on June 25, 2012, 04:04:24 PM
Wait til you get some miles on the E3s.. Commander IIs are better..

Max

What do you like about them? I know after a while on the E3's the wobble will surface put a new set on it is gone

Got over 4K on the commanders now. The E3s at this point were already getting noticeable.. Commanders much better.

Max

Quote from: Max Headflow on June 25, 2012, 04:16:41 PM
Got over 4K on the commanders now. The E3s at this point were already getting noticeable.. Commanders much better.

Max

Max, do you feel these would be a really good choice for my 02 RK or is there something out there you like better?

I would say that commander IIs are the best choice.. I think right now commander 1s handled better on my RKC but I've not had a chance to run both tires as commander II on it. I've got a commander II on the back of the RKC but a Pirelli on the front.. Its not quite as good as with the commander I's  May not be a fair comparison tho..  I did the Pirelli front and Commander II rear to at the same time.. I bet I wear out the Pirelli first..

Max

I likely would only be doing the rear at first, the front is in great shape.  I'm ashamed to tell you I don't know what kind of tires they are, I just bought the bike, but it handles squirrely and has me thinking of selling and buying something a bit newer with less miles. The rear tire is fair but over 50% worn I'd say. I know Harleys ain't Ducatis but the handling does not inspire confidence. I got a very good deal on it, so thought I'd try to sell (make a few bucks) and step up to a 2007. But so far no takers, so may be stuck with this one. That's not a terrible thing, but now I think I want a fairing and more balls....and so it goes. It's always sumthin...

Quote from: Max Headflow on June 25, 2012, 04:16:41 PM
Got over 4K on the commanders now. The E3s at this point were already getting noticeable.. Commanders much better.

Max

Of course they're better,they  pretty much ripped off the Avon Cobra..............

Max I've read some posts from folks who seem to think the Commander 2s tread compound might be too hard. They say they break loose too easy under hard acceleration. Have you noticed any of this. Getting ready to switch out the rear on my 08 Ultra and it seems to be more stable than my 03 RK. It should have the updated rubbers and I noticed the upper engine mound bolts to the front of the front jug. Do you think this could increase torsional stability? I think I might give the Com 2s another try if the wet weather and braking are good with the new compound.

Quote from: boooby1744 on June 26, 2012, 03:11:32 PM

Quote from: Max Headflow on June 25, 2012, 04:16:41 PM
Got over 4K on the commanders now. The E3s at this point were already getting noticeable.. Commanders much better.

Max

Of course they're better,they  pretty much ripped off the Avon Cobra..............

Not sure how they did that.. Tread pattern might be close but contours and compounds are way different...

Quote from: coastie56 on December 06, 2012, 10:11:37 AM
Max I've read some posts from folks who seem to think the Commander 2s tread compound might be too hard. They say they break loose too easy under hard acceleration. Have you noticed any of this. Getting ready to switch out the rear on my 08 Ultra and it seems to be more stable than my 03 RK. It should have the updated rubbers and I noticed the upper engine mound bolts to the front of the front jug. Do you think this could increase torsional stability? I think I might give the Com 2s another try if the wet weather and braking are good with the new compound.

The compound is hard.. I don't ride much in the rain and tend to ride like on ice when its wet as the rain around here brings out the oils in the roads and certain locations get real slick. I did notice that the commanders would slip across tar snakes tho.  Not sure if the motor mount change helped with stability.. My 02 RKC has always been stable since I did the suspension and changed the wire wheels to Street-glide wheels.. Before that it had only crappy tires also..

Max

Max,  your camel been drink'n again,  though you rehabbed him/her.

I think any tire would slip on those tar snakes we rode in CO.

After checking everything for wear and alignment,  I always said these heavy bikes needed a decent or somewhat proper spring rate as a first step along with better damping frt/rear.  After that you could find the next weakest links.  Hard to work on stability when the bike is wallowing on it's legs.   Rick

Wait til Death Valley boys... before you call me a drunk camel..

 :emoGroan:   looks like he hit the bottle already today   :hyst:

I just read the whole thread.  Great info! 

I purchased and installed the glide pro system.  The bike seems to be ok so far after about 500 miles.  The thing that irritated me about the glide pro is that you can't use standard alignment tools to align the bike.  HD, Jims, Georges all use the swingarm pivot shaft to align the powertrain.  After speaking with a dude who used to work in HD's R&D department, I realized that those areas of the bike are machined accurately so that the swingarm pivot shaft is supposed to be dead center of the passenger floorboard support hole.  Anyway, the glide pro bushings don't have the offset that the stock HDs do so they pivot shaft will never center in the alignment hole.  Also, the engine/tranny is dropped about 1/8" in the back where those bushings go.  It was funny that Jake spoke about the clearance of the 12 point nut in his video.  The reason he thought it was so cool is the when you drop the engine/tranny 1/8" you get the potential for the nut to rub inside that hole! 

So, the new bushings are on the way.  I bought the georges alignment tool and put the bushings in and align the bike on Monday.  I have never been able to ride this bike with my hands off the bars and have it go straight.  It has always pulled a little bit to the right.  Other projects in the quest to make my 05 FLHTCI ride and handle as good a possible were removal of the 440s in place put JRIs.  Those made a large difference in comfort and handling.  I have the mono tubes up front.  They are coming out.  I spoke to a dude at Ricor and he mentioned that the monotubes have super stiff springs and very little damping.  I plan on putting race tech springs up front with the Ricor intimidators.  I have been half considering upgrading to the CCE triple trees, but so few people have been willing to fork over the $850 that there is almost no feedback from actual users on them.  Almost every other bike I see has decent clamps on the front forks.  I looked at a Victory and those have a decent front suspension from the factory.  Not a race bike, but they handle way better than my bike!

I measured my old biscuits and they are .840-.850, so they are the thinner ones.  My bike has about 25k on it.

DOM,  You might consider going with the Race Tech emulators.  Here's a link to a recent mod/RT tuning suggestion and post I did:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,64229.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,64229.0.html)

The emulators with 4 holes, yellow 64lb/in. emulator springs at 2 turns preload and 20 wt. is a sweet set-up.  I think very few people have tried them with 4 holes,  RT suggest this and partially drills the additional 2 holes,  the end user simply has to finish drilling them through.

I understand that there has been several people who are modding or having their Ricor Intminators modded to get what they want as they are not adjustable like the RT valves.  I feel confident/comfortable with what makes the RT emulators work well.   Rick

Long story, 
I remember when my bike handle like it was on rails (updated swing arm,Sta-bo,Progressive link),  with the engine change and Baker plus one pan, I had to get rid of the Progressive link,  with the Dunlop 407 tire (180) it still handle well but notice not like with the link.  I installed a Avon radial Cobra rear tire on the bike, and next thing I know is I have the drunken camel ride.  horrible, could not hold a line in sweeping curves, grooves were to be avoided, and yes I know the load index is way less then the 407 tire.   I have been waiting for Bitchin Bagger brace plus one for the Baker pan for the last 4 months, It finally got here on Saturday and immediately installed the unit,  took a nice 225 mile ride to San Fransisco yesterday.  The bay area freeways are loaded with grooves that will shake most riders from ever going back.    with the bagger brace back on the bike was like putting the bike right back on rails again even with the Avon tire on back bringing back my confidence on the ride again.   The next tire I will be going back to the 407 tire which will outlast 2 Avon tires on back and much more stable ride. The Avon has a load index of 825 lbs.  and the 407 has a load index of 990 lbs.  big difference for heavy bike.

the Bitchin Bagger plus one brace was a great price for 169.00 directly from them and no I have no affiliation with Bitchin Bagger.

I was thinking two weeks ago if this post will ever die,  guess I am not helping it  :hyst:

Title should be does your batwing fairing bike handle like a drunken camel in a sand storm.

So that is a good question.  Is it only the batwing faring bikes which have this issue or do Road Kings and Road Glides also have the drunken camel?

DOM

Quote from: JohnCA58 on July 22, 2013, 11:08:09 AM
Long story, 
I remember when my bike handle like it was on rails (updated swing arm,Sta-bo,Progressive link),  with the engine change and Baker plus one pan, I had to get rid of the Progressive link,  with the Dunlop 407 tire (180) it still handle well but notice not like with the link.  I installed a Avon radial Cobra rear tire on the bike, and next thing I know is I have the drunken camel ride.  horrible, could not hold a line in sweeping curves, grooves were to be avoided, and yes I know the load index is way less then the 407 tire.   I have been waiting for Bitchin Bagger brace plus one for the Baker pan for the last 4 months, It finally got here on Saturday and immediately installed the unit,  took a nice 225 mile ride to San Fransisco yesterday.  The bay area freeways are loaded with grooves that will shake most riders from ever going back.    with the bagger brace back on the bike was like putting the bike right back on rails again even with the Avon tire on back bringing back my confidence on the ride again.   The next tire I will be going back to the 407 tire which will outlast 2 Avon tires on back and much more stable ride. The Avon has a load index of 825 lbs.  and the 407 has a load index of 990 lbs.  big difference for heavy bike.

the Bitchin Bagger plus one brace was a great price for 169.00 directly from them and no I have no affiliation with Bitchin Bagger.

I was thinking two weeks ago if this post will ever die,  guess I am not helping it  :hyst:

So what was the condition of the rubber biscuits.. Did you try the biscuit deflection test?  Or are you running something like glidepros?   How was the alignment?

In order too to the $169 brace you need to blow what 300 bucks on baker oil pan.. It looks like the brace bolts directly to the pan.. No concern about the load on the brace on the pan pieces (pan is 2 piece)  and gaskets?   

Max

Quote from: DOM on July 22, 2013, 07:50:21 PM
So that is a good question.  Is it only the batwing faring bikes which have this issue or do Road Kings and Road Glides also have the drunken camel?

DOM

I know of guys having issues with both road toads and the Boston whalers (RGs) but the bloat wings will definitely have it the worse especially with the pizza box on the back.. Think of how all  that crap moves the center of gravity up. Certain combos or worn tires on a road-toad will dance it pretty good.. No mater how good the suspension is..
Max

Adding weight to the front end (part that turns/moves) accentuates head-shake/movement,  bigger movement and possibly more cycles.  Makes the ole camel shake his head "no".

I came down the coast highway 1 today from Carmel to San Simeon which has some pretty good whoops/undulations in spots where you have the chassis loaded during cornering.  I had some extra stuff I bought at Laguna Seca so the handlebar bag was loaded heavy (total weight 8.5lbs.) which caused the bars to do a double "waggle" a few times.  Just enough to make my little camel do a quick polite shake "no",  but not try and spit me off.  I needed a few more clicks of damping on the rear shocks to help the situation,  when the rear would rebound from being compressed to quick (jack-in-the-box), it would initiate the bar wag.

Point is without the handlebar bag the bike doesn't do it...effect of added weight.    Rick

Max,  the biscuits are new last year, deflection with 4 foot pry bar was minimal,  my Baker pan is one piece,  I have no worries about the pan, most braces uses at least 4 pan bolts, with this set up it is getting the support of every pan bolts.

What does "minimal" mean? It moved less than 1/8 in by eyeball or an indicator showed less than 0.030?  The other braces tie directly to the pan mounting points.. The stock oil pan bagger brace can flex a little based on design while other limits the bracket to a 3 to 5 rear bolts and are fastened directly to the base of the pan. Load on the pan is minimal and not on all the screws like you said.  Either way I'd keep an eye on them.. Not putting down these braces tho. They seem to do the job and do help but require maintenance / checking. 

Max

I did check it with a dial indicator (swing arm shaft) with the old donuts in place and using about 50 lbs of force on a 4 foot pry bar,  it indicated less than .050,  when I stuck the 120 back in, I rebuilt the back end with new donuts and Sta-bo look like new and rechecked it w/o the dial indicator. it was less play with same force on bar.  Like I said,  it was a tight bike before I put the Avon on the back, have always run a Avon on front.   The difference in tire weight from the Avon to the 407 was huge also.  flexibility with the Avon was easy, the 407 sidewalls wouldn't even budge.

John,
Since the Avon is a radial you might try 5-10 more lbs to what you are running now.
See what that does as rule of thumb is more pressure = less sidewall flex...maybe less dunked camel behavior?
Bob
PS- There's got to be a reason the MOCO doesn't recommend radials.

Quote from: Max Headflow on July 23, 2013, 06:22:03 AM
The stock oil pan bagger brace can flex a little based on design

Max

Max,

Where can the stock oil pan Bagger Brace flex? I just don't see it. FYI, I love this thing and have installed on many others bikes and they love it as well. I personally think it's the best of the bunch.

Rick

Bob,  yeah I didn't do my research correctly, didn't know it was a radial.   I did talk to Avon tech on the phone and he told me the opposite and to run it down to 38 to 40 psi and the front at 38.  I did and it also made a difference in the way it handle (better)  I originally had the same thoughts as you did and started at 45 psi in the rear and it was a drunken camel ride.   

Quote from: Eglider05 on July 23, 2013, 09:27:17 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on July 23, 2013, 06:22:03 AM
The stock oil pan bagger brace can flex a little based on design

Max

Max,

Where can the stock oil pan Bagger Brace flex? I just don't see it. FYI, I love this thing and have installed on many others bikes and they love it as well. I personally think it's the best of the bunch.

Rick

It's a horse shoe that raps around the pan.. It can flex a little. I'm not saying it's a bad thing FWIW.. And the flex is probably not a lot.. Few to 10 thou maybe if that? 

Max

With the Avon Cobra bias tires. Check ther sight. as Bob said , more air. I am running 45 lbs on the back. That helped alot in the corners.
42 up front. But check the chart at Avon for exact specs.

Quote from: Max Headflow on July 23, 2013, 09:48:36 AM

It's a horse shoe that raps around the pan.. It can flex a little. I'm not saying it's a bad thing FWIW.. And the flex is probably not a lot.. Few to 10 thou maybe if that? 

Max

It is beefy, 6 screws to the oil pan and it fits so tight you need to clean the pan before install.

Rick

(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3150/9opb.jpg)

Quote from: Eglider05 on July 23, 2013, 11:29:50 AM

Quote from: Max Headflow on July 23, 2013, 09:48:36 AM

It's a horse shoe that raps around the pan.. It can flex a little. I'm not saying it's a bad thing FWIW.. And the flex is probably not a lot.. Few to 10 thou maybe if that? 

Max

It is beefy, 6 screws to the oil pan and it fits so tight you need to clean the pan before install.

Rick

(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3150/9opb.jpg)

I guess it's tight then..  :embarrassed:

Max

Wow! My oil pan doesn't seem to flex that much.  :nix:

Quote from: Coyote on July 23, 2013, 12:28:13 PM
Wow! My oil pan doesn't seem to flex that much.  :nix:

Got a bagger brace on yours?  I thought the 09-ups didn't need one..  :smilep:

Max

Add:

FWIW the donuts sure don't like it hot.. When I stopped in Baker with the temps hovering around 115, it felt like I had a flat back tire.. Bad enough that I stopped, inspected the tires and checked the tire pressure..

Maybe John toasted his donuts?

Max

simple Q. Does lowering the rear of a bagger with the 11.5 HD shocks and not touching the front springs negitivly affect it's high speed stability?

MY 05 came with the 11.5 didnt seem to have high speed issues. The bike had the wallow and head shake when newer and after i put the ride str8 on it never did much. I did have some handleing and vibration problems at 60k miles and found the the rear swingarm needed rebuild. had a bad bushing and the rubber donuts were wore out. Ive had no handling problems with the 2012 bike only engine problems!

Quote from: CLASSY56 on September 13, 2013, 06:16:02 AM
simple Q. Does lowering the rear of a bagger with the 11.5 HD shocks and not touching the front springs negitivly affect it's high speed stability?

Has not on my 2012 roadglide. Faster I go the more stable it feels. I seldom push it past 140. As matter of fact it has never been that fast unless it was flown here on a 747.

Quote from: CLASSY56 on September 13, 2013, 06:16:02 AM
simple Q. Does lowering the rear of a bagger with the 11.5 HD shocks and not touching the front springs negitivly affect it's high speed stability?

Theoretically the bike should become more stable as lowering the bike in the rear increases rail for the forks in the front.. The problem with the theory is that it doesn't always work..  :embarrassed:  All motorcycles have a bit of flex in the chassis. Rubber mount baggers have more than a lot of other bikes.. So ..Shortening the shocks you help with straight line stability unless it adversely effects the chassis in some odd way.  In other words it should help but then it night not..  Best thing to do is find someone that has the same bike model (tires, wheel, pizza box, fairing etc.) that has made the change and ask them..

Max

Quote from: CLASSY56 on September 13, 2013, 06:16:02 AM
simple Q. Does lowering the rear of a bagger with the 11.5 HD shocks and not touching the front springs negitivly affect it's high speed stability?

I went with 12" shocks on my 06 Ultra 2 years ago just recently started picking up shake in the front probably time to adjust neck bearings but before that I've had zero issues with it. I went originally with the HD low profile air shocks for the 1st year then upgraded to Terry Cable Ultra Low shocks for a huge improvement in ride quality.
Thinking of upgrading front suspension this winter and replacing the swing arm rubbers

Well,,

At the end of the last Avon tire the EGC began to dance pretty good so I though that I'd add a rear stabilizer to see if it would help.. I used a left side swingarm bracket from TXchop (thanks Dan).. Here are pics of the mods to add the rear bracket..

(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1320)

(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1321)

(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1322)


Funny thing is that it really didn't do anything as far as handling goes.. Choppy/ripply high speed sweepers it danced. Kind of the issue that this tread was started for.

Then I got to thinking..

I'd been involved in a minor fender bender on the bike.. The bike was hit on the right side hard enough to push the me and the bike off the road.. It bent the right side crash bar and cracked the top of the saddle bag.. The bike still tracked fine so I assumed alignment was OK..

I was wrong.. I checked the alignment and found front to back dead nuts on but the rear wheel was not vertical with the front.. The difference measured about 0.5 degrees.. It took roughly three turns on the link to bring it back down to zero and the direction of movement was constant with the bump applied to the chassis.. I checked the top mounts and they still look good.

Unfortunately I replaced the tire at the same time as I need to get a bunch of stuff ready for a trip.. Anyway the dancing is gone..

Important reminder.. When chasing the dancing demons, check alignment first..   :embarrassed:

Max

Good to know Max.  Having your bike up to spec is the first step.  How did you align your bike?  Did you use one of the HD or Georges tools or did you use levels?  I bought one of the Georges tools and have it on my list to do this winter.  Oh and great job fabbing your own bracket and mount!

Nice Job Max :up:

Quote from: DOM on November 22, 2013, 11:31:24 AM
Good to know Max.  Having your bike up to spec is the first step.  How did you align your bike?  Did you use one of the HD or Georges tools or did you use levels?  I bought one of the Georges tools and have it on my list to do this winter.  Oh and great job fabbing your own bracket and mount!

I get the front and rear wheel lined up on the lift and the bike level.. I use a cross hair laser mounted to a straight bar to set rear tire alignment with the front and a digital protractor on the rotors to align the wheels vertically.. I've also used levels for the vertical alignment but the protractor is easier to handle.

If you are talking about the 740050 shown here..

http://georges-garage.com/chassis_tools.htm (http://georges-garage.com/chassis_tools.htm)

I'm not to hot on that one.. It's more a production tool to get the alignment close during bike assembly.. My bet it's what they use on the assembly line as it does not take into account tolerances in mounting points on the frame in relation to the front end..

Max

Quote from: Max Headflow on November 22, 2013, 11:58:47 AM...and the bike level..

How do you determine the bike is level?

The 2 tools.

(http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/MGalleryItem.php?id=1323)

I use 2 small c clamps mounted to the front brake rotors with scales rubber banded to them and pushed up against the rotor. Set the distance equal on both sides.

Max

Yup, that's the one.  HD has one just like it for the dealers to use and that is their procedure in the manual along with a method using alignment bars?.  The one for the tool is referred to as method A and the other, method B.  I supposed they both work pretty well.  I was told that where the tool bolts to the chassis is a datum point and is VERY accurate assuming no frame damage.  That of course may be the fly in the ointment.  If your bike has been hit, there might be unnoticed frame issues which could affect alignment.  I'm speculating on that one though!

Quote from: 14Frisco on November 22, 2013, 12:20:52 PM

Quote from: Max Headflow on November 22, 2013, 11:58:47 AM...and the bike level..

How do you determine the bike is level?

Off the front rotor after I have the front end straight with the rear.. The front wheel is in the wheel vise and use a jack under the frame at the cross member. I slide the frame back and forth on the jack until the front is lined up then shim under the jack until it's level or close to it.. The digital level as a zero so it's not so important.. When using a machinist level and square, it needs to be closer but only close enough to gauge where the bubble is.

Quote from: DOM on November 22, 2013, 12:25:10 PM
Yup, that's the one.  HD has one just like it for the dealers to use and that is their procedure in the manual along with a method using alignment bars?.  The one for the tool is referred to as method A and the other, method B.  I supposed they both work pretty well.  I was told that where the tool bolts to the chassis is a datum point and is VERY accurate assuming no frame damage.  That of course may be the fly in the ointment.  If your bike has been hit, there might be unnoticed frame issues which could affect alignment.  I'm speculating on that one though!

It would be interesting to see how the 2 compare..  Especially on a chassis that has issues. One issue I'd have is that the special tool references on the center of a cast block and the cast block has some slop mounted on the frame..  When adding in tolerances in the swing arm and frame the errors can increase.. The thing about using a laser and level is that the alignment is done end to end so the only error is what is in the measurement and no tolerance build up issues..

Assuming that the special tool is used in production and possible tolerance issues might explain why some baggers handle better than others..

Max

I don't know if it is used in production or just repair.  I'd be curious to hear too.  I guess what would be the ultimate was be to align a bike with the tool, then check it with your lasers.

Quote from: DOM on November 22, 2013, 01:05:47 PM
I don't know if it is used in production or just repair.  I'd be curious to hear too.  I guess what would be the ultimate was be to align a bike with the tool, then check it with your lasers.

If it was used it would have to be for 08 bikes and before.. The new chassis doesn't have any adjustments as far as I can tell.. The newer bikes use donuts inn the front like the ones on the swingarm.. No adjustment there..  Even the top motor mount is a solid link..

Max

I have a 2005 so that should work. It is strange the new bikes wouldn't have any adjustment.

I know this is an old thread, maybe no one will get a notice when I post to it, but I will see.  :missed:

I'm wondering if people that have had the glide pro in for a few years are still happy with them?
Also, how often should the glide pro parts be replaced, compared to stock?

Quote from: mlemay on September 13, 2015, 04:57:08 PM
I know this is an old thread, maybe no one will get a notice when I post to it, but I will see.  :missed:

I'm wondering if people that have had the glide pro in for a few years are still happy with them?
Also, how often should the glide pro parts be replaced, compared to stock?

I've been running the GP frnt mount for a yr or so and still love it. Don't plan on even replacing it, and I'm low-middle age. Added the "stiffies" to the rear mounts as a "Band-Aid" to my ageing early style swing-arm pivot shaft bushings. It's good enough for now but I really should have bit the bullet on the whole GP set.

 Have you seen the videos of the productions lines at HD! I doubt if anything gets "Lined" up as in actually adjusted, everything will be pre-set and assembled and hope for the best.
They certainly don't take the time ($$) to check every bike with accurate lasers.. they'd be backed up for miles on the line.
I doubt if one in 20 HD Pro mechanics would know how to do it, or care.  LOL 
Max will ask me to leave again!!  Buffalo