Thanks to all those folks who helped me out with my previous thread.
Today I pulled the rear head and cylinder and found some very interesting things. I'm hoping some of you might be able to tell me where I went wrong and how to prevent it happening again.
Build
2002 Fatboy
Wiseco 95" pistons
2009 Softail heads cc'd to 83 and new valve stem seals
.005" pistons down the hole
around 10-1 comp
Cometic gaskets with .030" HG
CR575 cams
DTT ignition
I did 3 heat cycles, then a 20 mile break in ride and at the end I noticed grey smoke out the rear cylinder's muffler and the rear plug was really fouled... Then I did another 50 mile break in ride with plenty of deceleration and engine breaking to seat the rings. The smoke got a little worse rather than better, and the rear plug fouled even worse with a black wet residue....
After much discussion I pulled the top end down and this is what I found --
What concerns me the most is the cylinder wall meeting and the deep gouge toward the base.
I thought maybe the second oil ring had been installed upside down - but the marking indicates that it is right. I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW SO MUCH OIL GOT IN! Is the Valve seal? Or the rings not seating? And should I rebuild the front cylinder / head as well just to be safe?
Thanks for any help
Intake Valve
intake valve.jpg
Exhaust Valve
exhaust valve.jpg
combustion chamber.jpg
oil on pistons.jpg
oil on pistons2.jpg
second ring installed right.jpg
CYLINDER WALL
20211108_170534.jpg
is the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?
post a pic of how the ends meet
and where is the other end of this support rail ?
(https://i.imgur.com/cAq6CMB.png)
Keep in mind it's hard to see fine detail in a photo. But what I see looks like two things, the cylinder is possibly not round as one photo shows some heavy streaking vertically. Also the hone seems to be a bit rough, and no real pattern showing. Keep in mind that lighting and the photo sometimes makes details unclear. But that's what appears to show in the bottom photo.
Quoteis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?
post a pic of how the ends meet
and where is the other end of this support rail ?
(https://i.imgur.com/cAq6CMB.png)
I agree-based on the height of the scraping, it's third ring set issues- looks like the lower oil scraper got out of the groove, and machined the cylinder wall. May have slipped out of the ring compressor during installation, or the expander overlapped and pushed it out of position. Pull the rings and check for damage. May be a chunk floating in the bottom end. I'd replace that cylinder & get a set of rings for that piston.
What was the end gap set at on the rings?
As far as the expander, ends should butt in a "w", not an "m".
:agree: Measure the distance down the cylinder that the score mark ends and then the piston and you will have the supporting evidence.
:up: :up:
Agree with all on the rings.
Find a shop that hones in plates and can control the hone angle plus uses the proper stones or diamonds to achieve a hone pattern that will retain oil and work properly with the rings Wiseco chose. That hone job looks to be done with a hand AN hone. The piston is likely fine and a new cylinder should be used, fresh bore and hone. Follow the lead of others to get the rings installed properly.
:agree: It also appears the hone was not making even contact on the bore surface. I will add that if you can determine the cross hatch was a hand controlled "random" crosshatch" you may want to pull the other barrel (or at least the head) and check it for pattern angle too. Yeah, I know, more $$$ for gaskets but if the pattern angle is off it may show up as a problem later.
Quote from: FSG on March 04, 2018, 10:03:15 PM(https://i.imgur.com/4lRiyK9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/wT4riLi.png)
Hope that posts ok, found it with a site search for
oil expansion ring, shows correct installation.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=116646.0;attach=107132
Don't worry about carb or valve seals at the moment, these marks on cylinder need to be addressed first.
Quote from: FSG on November 08, 2021, 02:13:49 AMis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?
post a pic of how the ends meet
and where is the other end of this support rail ?
(https://i.imgur.com/cAq6CMB.png)
This. Especially the question about the other end of the rail. Expansion ring looks a bit "small", are the ends overlapped?
There seems to be a couple of threads in different sections about the same topic. I'm having trouble keeping up with your progress, lol. May I suggest just adding to this thread from here on.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 08, 2021, 05:46:05 AM........
Find a shop that hones in plates and can control the hone angle plus uses the proper stones or diamonds to achieve a hone pattern that will retain oil and work properly with the rings Wiseco chose. That hone job looks to be done with a hand AN hone. The piston is likely fine and a new cylinder should be used, fresh bore and hone. ........
My biggest problem in Australia is finding someone who will do work the way I would like. It's a lot less frustrating to just do it myself, but I can't do everything. Perhaps part of the problem is we just don't have the market for it. Although there is a lot of anti-harley sentiment here, it really doesn't matter what brand, these days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority. I reckon good on the OP for having a go.
Back on topic. I'd be pulling the front cylinder, too.
Quotethese days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority
so true :up:
A car machine shop performance oriented can do them if they have the plates. I make mine.
Quoteis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?
post a pic of how the ends meet
and where is the other end of this support rail ?
(https://i.imgur.com/cAq6CMB.png)
Thats a very good question.... It seems I've lost a decent part of the support rail. I hope it's not somewhere in the lower end.
20211109_163047.jpg
Quote from: kd on November 08, 2021, 05:08:23 AM:agree: Measure the distance down the cylinder that the score mark ends and then the piston and you will have the supporting evidence.
Thanks kd, I dont have the right measuring tools to measure cylinder bore, just a good set of vernier calipers. I'll give it a go. Cheers
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 08, 2021, 05:46:05 AM:up: :up:
Agree with all on the rings.
Find a shop that hones in plates and can control the hone angle plus uses the proper stones or diamonds to achieve a hone pattern that will retain oil and work properly with the rings Wiseco chose. That hone job looks to be done with a hand AN hone. The piston is likely fine and a new cylinder should be used, fresh bore and hone. Follow the lead of others to get the rings installed properly.
Thanks HD, that's the thing right - I took them to the one place here who does have torque plates and who does a lot of Harley stuff.... They did the Evo I last built and there were no dramas with that build. I'm definitely talking it all back to the shop and seeing what they can do. And yes, there were nice crosshatched hone marks on the cylinder walls when I got them back from machining.
QuoteQuote(https://i.imgur.com/4lRiyK9.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/wT4riLi.png)
Hope that posts ok, found it with a site search for oil expansion ring, shows correct installation.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=116646.0;attach=107132
Don't worry about carb or valve seals at the moment, these marks on cylinder need to be addressed first.
Quoteis the oil scraper expansion in the right way ?
post a pic of how the ends meet
and where is the other end of this support rail ?
(https://i.imgur.com/cAq6CMB.png)
This. Especially the question about the other end of the rail. Expansion ring looks a bit "small", are the ends overlapped?
There seems to be a couple of threads in different sections about the same topic. I'm having trouble keeping up with your progress, lol. May I suggest just adding to this thread from here on.
Yes, thanks deuced. That other thread was about tuning, I only have this thread now :wink:
The missing part of the support rail worries me...
20211109_163047.jpg
Also, do you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it? Or am I looking at having to get another cylinder?
Thanks
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 08, 2021, 02:26:13 AMKeep in mind it's hard to see fine detail in a photo. But what I see looks like two things, the cylinder is possibly not round as one photo shows some heavy streaking vertically. Also the hone seems to be a bit rough, and no real pattern showing. Keep in mind that lighting and the photo sometimes makes details unclear. But that's what appears to show in the bottom photo.
Hey Ohio, it's just the picture that makes the cyl appear out of round. But the big streak marks are definitely there as well as a large gouge that I can easily feel with my finger.
Quotedo you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?
:up: that's what I'd do
Quote from: FSG on November 09, 2021, 01:20:32 AMQuotedo you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?
:up: that's what I'd do
OK thanks.... I'm going to see the machinist tomorrow and will see what he can do about it.
Cheers
Quote from: FSG on November 09, 2021, 01:20:32 AMQuotedo you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?
:up: that's what I'd do
Thanks FSG, 3.875" bore plus .020" oversize pistons...
What bore size head gasket would I use?? I've only found std 95" 3.875" or bigger 98" 3.937" ?
I'd use the same big bore gaskets you used the first time. They measure 3.950-3.955 installed, plenty of room for .020 over.
If the piston wasn't damaged by the oil ring rail fiasco, I might consider coming up with another seasoned cylinder and re-bore it to size. Maybe less hassle and cost? :nix:
Quote from: FSG on November 08, 2021, 01:30:30 PMQuotethese days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority
so true :up:
done ? or done correct ?
Quote from: hbkeith on November 09, 2021, 06:16:27 AMQuote from: FSG on November 08, 2021, 01:30:30 PMQuotethese days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority
so true :up:
done ? or done correct ?
The effort is the thing, we've all done things wrong once or twice, but the key is to try.
I recently sent a cylinder and piston package to Australia by USPS. A very good experience. I have cylinder cores here, virgins, and stock KB forged pistons. Painless.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 09, 2021, 07:13:35 AMI recently sent a cylinder and piston package to Australia by USPS. A very good experience. I have cylinder cores here, virgins, and stock KB forged pistons. Painless.
:up: Sounds like a great option.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 09, 2021, 07:13:35 AMI recently sent a cylinder and piston package to Australia by USPS. A very good experience. I have cylinder cores here, virgins, and stock KB forged pistons. Painless.
Ok thanks Don, could you please pm me the details?
Cheers
Quote from: Hossamania on November 09, 2021, 06:31:47 AMQuote from: hbkeith on November 09, 2021, 06:16:27 AMQuote from: FSG on November 08, 2021, 01:30:30 PMQuotethese days people who are into modifying their own bikes are a minority
so true :up:
done ? or done correct ?
The effort is the thing, we've all done things wrong once or twice, but the key is to try.
That's it. How do you learn if you don't first give it a shot? This is only my second engine build. I'm still learning a lot. 😁
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 09, 2021, 05:25:11 AMI'd use the same big bore gaskets you used the first time. They measure 3.950-3.955 installed, plenty of room for .020 over.
Thanks! 👍
Anyone got any ideas of how to fish out that missing chunk of oil support rail that I'm assuming is sitting in the bottom end?? :nix:
Flashlight, forceps, and patience. :fish:
Quote........do you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?
It would work. Personally, I wouldn't. But that's more because of an OCD viewpoint than any actual mechanical reason. Like, I'd rather go barefoot than wear mismatched socks.
Yes, you use 3.875" head gasket with 0.020" oversize piston however we're talking about diameter so 0.020" oversize is another 0.010" off each side. Or 0.010" off the cylinder wall all the way around. Is 0.010" enough to remove those gouges? Also, can you get just one piston? Interested in what the machinist says (btw, no need to post who that is on public forum) maybe they can supply another cylinder.
Problem is the missing piece of ring. How did it break off and where is it now? How were pistons and cylinders installed? If that piece of ring is in the crankcase it's not just sharing that space with the crank but also all the softail counterbalancer paraphernalia. Unfortunately I think the only sure way to get it out is split the cases.
Here's what I would do....... Carefully remove the sump plug and rinse the whole lower end with clean spirits like fresh varsol until it flows clean. This is assuming you are removing the other barrel to inspect it. It may have picked something up so it's probably a good idea. You'll sleep better too. Roll the crank over as you rinse and do the rods and pin and the crank bearings too. A squirt bottle with a long nozzle will help you target areas. Go from the top down. Use light air pressure on a long nozzle to move any particles around between flushes. Don't be cheap and rinse it well. Check the broken ring you have against the good one so you know what you need to find. If the ring will stick to a magnet, fish around with a magnet on a longish even flexible handle between flushes. Put any pieces you find together and check them against the intact rail. Re-lube and rotate every thing you cleaned with a clean oil can squirter so the oil flows well as you rote it to displace any remnants of the solvent.
Good hunting and best wishes for your success.
QuoteAnyone got any ideas of how to fish out that missing chunk of oil support rail that I'm assuming is sitting in the bottom end?? :nix:
(https://i.imgur.com/sr0r0dW.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1a117Sf.jpeg)
Quote from: -deuced- on November 09, 2021, 03:52:25 PMQuote........do you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?
It would work. Personally, I wouldn't. But that's more because of an OCD viewpoint than any actual mechanical reason. Like, I'd rather go barefoot than wear mismatched socks.
Yes, you use 3.875" head gasket with 0.020" oversize piston however we're talking about diameter so 0.020" oversize is another 0.010" off each side. Or 0.010" off the cylinder wall all the way around. Is 0.010" enough to remove those gouges? Also, can you get just one piston? Interested in what the machinist says (btw, no need to post who that is on public forum) maybe they can supply another cylinder.
Problem is the missing piece of ring. How did it break off and where is it now? How were pistons and cylinders installed? If that piece of ring is in the crankcase it's not just sharing that space with the crank but also all the softail counterbalancer paraphernalia. Unfortunately I think the only sure way to get it out is split the cases.
Oh man!! That is not good news... I'm really hoping that it doesn't come to that because it's way out of my depth and it's gonna be expensive :emoGroan:
Quote from: kd on November 09, 2021, 04:15:25 PMHere's what I would do....... Carefully remove the sump plug and rinse the whole lower end with clean spirits like fresh varsol until it flows clean. This is assuming you are removing the other barrel to inspect it. It may have picked something up so it's probably a good idea. You'll sleep better too. Roll the crank over as you rinse and do the rods and pin and the crank bearings too. A squirt bottle with a long nozzle will help you target areas. Go from the top down. Use light air pressure on a long nozzle to move any particles around between flushes. Don't be cheap and rinse it well. Check the broken ring you have against the good one so you know what you need to find. If the ring will stick to a magnet, fish around with a magnet on a longish even flexible handle between flushes. Put any pieces you find together and check them against the intact rail. Re-lube and rotate every thing you cleaned with a clean oil can squirter so the oil flows well as you rote it to displace any remnants of the solvent.
Good hunting and best wishes for your success.
Thanks 👍
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1636362593;topic=116646.0;attach=107132
Last pic in first post.
When assembled, was the piston installed on the rod and then the cylinder installed? Maybe the ring broke at that time. If so, maybe it fell down or maybe it shot out to the side. If it stayed in the piston groove it's not going to fall into the crankcase once the piston is in the cylinder. Same if it broke after installation. It won't fit between the piston and the cylinder wall. Looking at that pic from the first post it seems the missing piece was still in the piston groove while the motor was running. The marks on the cylinder wall are from the "two" end gaps. Maybe when the cylinder was removed the broken piece fell out and down. If the motor has not been turned over it just might be sitting on top of the crank, or at least visible, or retrievable with a magnet. The oil rail will stick to a magnet but so will the crank. Good pics from 14frisco showing secure attachment of wire to magnet. Fiddly job but of course it's worth a try. That broken piece might also have fallen out of the piston groove when the piston was being removed from the rod or whilst being transported to the workbench. Have a good look around the bike and the shed. Maybe it's not in the crankcase.
What did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?
Did you try to fish that part of the ring with a magnet tool like Frisco suggested? A wrist pin circlip once fell into the residual oil of the flywheel housing when I installed new pistons. I used a magnet salvaged from a defunct harddisk and that worked perfectly.
Armin.
Quote from: FSG on November 09, 2021, 01:20:32 AMQuotedo you think if the damaged cylinder is re-bored out to fit a .020" oversize piston will I be able to still use it?
:up: that's what I'd do
Hey FSG, I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge. He said that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 09, 2021, 10:36:26 PMWhat did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?
Hey, yes I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge.
He also explained that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.
I was thinking maybe of using a set of 97" pistons -- they are 3.937" bore right? So that's effectively .050" bigger than the 3.875" that I currently have? So that equals about .025" either side of the wall which should {could} be enough to clean it up nicely enough and I'll be increasing my compression and capacity slightly at the same time.
It's that or buy a 97" complete kit, barrels, pistons and rings, gaskets and no guesswork. A little more pricey though.... I'm already way over budget :oops:
Quote from: Armin on November 10, 2021, 01:27:24 AMDid you try to fish that part of the ring with a magnet tool like Frisco suggested? A wrist pin circlip once fell into the residual oil of the flywheel housing when I installed new pistons. I used a magnet salvaged from a defunct harddisk and that worked perfectly.
Armin.
No luck yet, but I'm still fishin' :doh:
Quote from: kd on November 09, 2021, 04:15:25 PMHere's what I would do....... Carefully remove the sump plug and rinse the whole lower end with clean spirits like fresh varsol until it flows clean. This is assuming you are removing the other barrel to inspect it. It may have picked something up so it's probably a good idea. You'll sleep better too. Roll the crank over as you rinse and do the rods and pin and the crank bearings too. A squirt bottle with a long nozzle will help you target areas. Go from the top down. Use light air pressure on a long nozzle to move any particles around between flushes. Don't be cheap and rinse it well. Check the broken ring you have against the good one so you know what you need to find. If the ring will stick to a magnet, fish around with a magnet on a longish even flexible handle between flushes. Put any pieces you find together and check them against the intact rail. Re-lube and rotate every thing you cleaned with a clean oil can squirter so the oil flows well as you rote it to displace any remnants of the solvent.
Good hunting and best wishes for your success.
Thanks kd, if I cant get it with the magnet, this may be what I'll have to do.
Cheers
Quote from: 14Frisco on November 09, 2021, 06:00:48 PMQuoteAnyone got any ideas of how to fish out that missing chunk of oil support rail that I'm assuming is sitting in the bottom end?? :nix:
(https://i.imgur.com/sr0r0dW.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1a117Sf.jpeg)
Thanks Frisco, I'm wondering what type of magnet you've got there in your set up?
My magnet doesn't seem strong enough...
Quote from: Adam76 on November 10, 2021, 03:24:23 AMQuote from: -deuced- on November 09, 2021, 10:36:26 PMWhat did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?
Hey, yes I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge.
He also explained that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.
I was thinking maybe of using a set of 97" pistons -- they are 3.937" bore right? So that's effectively .050" bigger than the 3.875" that I currently have? So that equals about .025" either side of the wall which should {could} be enough to clean it up nicely enough and I'll be increasing my compression and capacity slightly at the same time.
It's that or buy a 97" complete kit, barrels, pistons and rings, gaskets and no guesswork. A little more pricey though.... I'm already way over budget :oops:
It should clean up going to a big bore.
Cylinders aren't hard to find here. Most shops have a few extra sets lying around.
QuoteThanks Frisco, I'm wondering what type of magnet you've got there in your set up?
My magnet doesn't seem strong enough...
I got them from RadioShack way back - 64-1888 - 1 1/8" ceramic magnets in a 5-pack (https://www.radioshack.com/collections/magnets/products/1-1-8-round-ceramic-magnets). I am sure you can find something similar in AUSland, maybe on eBay.
Make sure the stick is sturdy and that you attach the magnet well - you wouldn't want the magnet to come off down in the crankcase when you are fishing around.
Jaycar magnet (https://www.jaycar.com.au/rare-earth-magnets-with-mounting-holes/p/LM1626?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-K2MBhC-ARIsAMtLKRvk_pKgxJveMbSQ7_cHfK4awTCPCXugHZMXKy_I6mrxiebgglPe9PMaAl38EALw_wcB)
These (above link) are very strong, maybe too strong ! . Wrap it in insulation tape and use a strong wire
Did the machinist say anything about being able to supply another another cylinder and stick with 95"? Did you show him the piston? Did he comment on it's serviceability? Is there any damage to the piston groove? Can he supply rings?
Check your magnet on remaining oil rail to get a feel for it.
QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat did your machinist say about that rear cylinder?
Hey, yes I took my cylinder to the machine shop and asked if a .020" oversize piston would be enough to clean up the cyl walls and clean up the gouge.
He also explained that a .020" oversize piston is actually only .010" either side of the centreline, so it would not be enough.
I was thinking maybe of using a set of 97" pistons -- they are 3.937" bore right? So that's effectively .050" bigger than the 3.875" that I currently have? So that equals about .025" either side of the wall which should {could} be enough to clean it up nicely enough and I'll be increasing my compression and capacity slightly at the same time.
It's that or buy a 97" complete kit, barrels, pistons and rings, gaskets and no guesswork. A little more pricey though.... I'm already way over budget :oops:
It should clean up going to a big bore.
Cylinders aren't hard to find here. Most shops have a few extra sets lying around.
Thanks Larry, so going to 97" should be ok with my damaged cylinder?
Cheers
QuoteJaycar magnet (https://www.jaycar.com.au/rare-earth-magnets-with-mounting-holes/p/LM1626?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-K2MBhC-ARIsAMtLKRvk_pKgxJveMbSQ7_cHfK4awTCPCXugHZMXKy_I6mrxiebgglPe9PMaAl38EALw_wcB)
These (above link) are very strong, maybe too strong ! . Wrap it in insulation tape and use a strong wire
👍 thanks.
QuoteDid the machinist say anything about being able to supply another another cylinder and stick with 95"? Did you show him the piston? Did he comment on it's serviceability? Is there any damage to the piston groove? Can he supply rings?
Check your magnet on remaining oil rail to get a feel for it.
Yes, that's one option - get hold of another virgin bore cylinder and re-use the same piston with a news set of rings.... this would be the last expensive option.
He didn't specifically say the piston was serviceable or not, but I can always go and get it looked at again.
Cheers
While I'm ssorting out the piston / cylinder issue, anyone's got any good methods of cleaning out the exhaust port of my cyl head? It's pretty fouled up with carbon and oil deposits.
Brake cleaner? Degreaser?
I don't want to damage the valve seal.
Cheers
20211111_074959.jpg
I wouldn't worry too much about that. It'll burn off later. Maybe wrap a rag around your finger and wipe out the wet oil. My focus would be on determining 100% for sure what happened to the missing piece of ring. I reckon it broke during assembly but it fell out of the piston during disassembly. Did it fall down between the engine and the primary case? Is it on the floor under the bike lift?
Use a throttle body/carb cleaner and a tooth brush, but don't stress too much.
QuoteI wouldn't worry too much about that. It'll burn off later. Maybe wrap a rag around your finger and wipe out the wet oil. My focus would be on determining 100% for sure what happened to the missing piece of ring. I reckon it broke during assembly but it fell out of the piston during disassembly. Did it fall down between the engine and the primary case? Is it on the floor under the bike lift?
Thanks mate, I'm at work but will have a really good look when I get home. I really hope it fell onto the lift or the floor.
Cheers
QuoteUse a throttle body/carb cleaner and a tooth brush, but don't stress too much.
Cool. Thanks 👍
Quote from: -deuced- on November 10, 2021, 06:36:47 PMI wouldn't worry too much about that. It'll burn off later. Maybe wrap a rag around your finger and wipe out the wet oil. My focus would be on determining 100% for sure what happened to the missing piece of ring. I reckon it broke during assembly but it fell out of the piston during disassembly. Did it fall down between the engine and the primary case? Is it on the floor under the bike lift?
Yeah, so as luck has it I just happened to have cleaned down the lift and swept the floor of the workshop when the bike as running and I didn't know there was an issue.... I've had a good look and the broken piece of support rail is nowhere to be seen.
Should I be looking through my oil filter and camchest? Do you think it could have made its way there?
I thought you said it was blowing smoke from first start.
Take both oil rails off the piston. Place one on top of the other. That will give you an idea of the size of the missing piece. I reckon it fell off the piston during disassembly. I seriously doubt it made it's way through the engine into the oil filter. Or into the camchest.
Edit: post a pic of both oil rails to clarify the size of the missing piece
Quote from: -deuced- on November 11, 2021, 12:07:57 AMI thought you said it was blowing smoke from first start.
Take both oil rails off the piston. Place one on top of the other. That will give you an idea of the size of the missing piece. I reckon it fell off the piston during disassembly. I seriously doubt it made it's way through the engine into the oil filter. Or into the camchest.
Edit: post a pic of both oil rails to clarify the size of the missing piece
OK, thanks. Thats good to know because yes it was fouling the rear cyl from first startup. And I put about 70 miles / 100kms on it before tearing it down. If it had gone through the camchest I would have know about it.
I've measured the missing piece of support rail and it's just under 20mm. I've checked the piston thoroughly and there is no sign of any of the broken piece/s.
I'm currently draining the oil and removing the filter.
I had a go at removing the sump plug, man that thing is tight, and I don't want to use a breaker bar on it incase I break something else!
yes I realise 20 thou over is on the diameter so 10 thou on the wall ...
although he's the machinist and has the cylinder in front of him I'd bore the 20 thou anyway so as to get a good look at the result ... it might be enough
you can always continue to the 97" Big Bore if needed
Quote from: FSG on November 11, 2021, 03:03:07 AMyes I realise 20 thou over is on the diameter so 10 thou on the wall ...
although he's the machinist and has the cylinder in front of him I'd bore the 20 thou anyway so as to get a good look at the result ... it might be enough
you can always continue to the 97" Big Bore if needed
Yes, good point. Thanks. 👍
I drained the oil tonight and pulled the filter. I can see where at least some of my oil rail went... it's not pretty.
20211111_184634.jpg
Oh no. Sorry to see that.
Ouch!
I'm anal about these things but I think a complete tear down is called for so everything can be cleaned properly. Anything less and you could get lucky. But then again the evidence suggests otherwise.
The really sad part is you guys are just starting your riding season.
QuoteOuch!
I'm anal about these things but I think a complete tear down is called for so everything can be cleaned properly. Anything less and you could get lucky. But then again the evidence suggests otherwise.
The really sad part is you guys are just starting your riding season.
Yep, beautiful riding season here at the moment... But that's not worrying me as much as what is happening. Are you suggesting a complete tear down as in split the cases?
Oh man :banghead:
QuoteOh no. Sorry to see that.
Yeah, not good...
What would your next move be of it were your bike?
Thanks.
You asked.. so, If it was my bike it would be completely torn down and start over from scratch.. That's way to much metal out of your oil filter for me to consider flushing the lower end and and putting it back together. Can't imagine the oil pump is OK ? Lifters , etc,.. I've been watching your thread from day one. While I'm no expert at building HD engines I have a life time of mechanical experience and there is no way I would continue trying to save this engine without complete disassembly and inspection. Man.. I feel your pain.. This is really a bummer. Wish you the best of luck how ever you decide to go.
If the metal is in the filter it has been thru the pump. The cam chest need to come apart to inspect damage and the whole engine really needs to be stripped to be cleaned and inspected thouroghly. Imagine fixing the damage you can see, cleaning the best you can without stripping and then a random piece of metal gets into the pump again and does damage to what you just fixed, you wont be happy Jan :emsad:
QuoteYou asked.. so, If it was my bike it would be completely torn down and start over from scratch.. That's way to much metal out of your oil filter for me to consider flushing the lower end and and putting it back together. Can't imagine the oil pump is OK ? Lifters , etc,.. I've been watching your thread from day one. While I'm no expert at building HD engines I have a life time of mechanical experience and there is no way I would continue trying to save this engine without complete disassembly and inspection. Man.. I feel your pain.. This is really a bummer. Wish you the best of luck how ever you decide to go.
Thanks man, yeah it sucks....
Do I need any specialty tools for the job? I've never gone into the bottom end before.
Thanks for your advice.
QuoteIf the metal is in the filter it has been thru the pump. The cam chest need to come apart to inspect damage and the whole engine really needs to be stripped to be cleaned and inspected thouroghly. Imagine fixing the damage you can see, cleaning the best you can without stripping and then a random piece of metal gets into the pump again and does damage to what you just fixed, you wont be happy Jan :emsad:
Thanks D-1, will take the camchest apart and inspect. At least I have good experience doing that. 😂
My oil pump was in spec but kinda showing signs of wear and tear when I put it together with the CR575 cams and new tensioners..... maybe be a good time to upgrade? Or just a thorough clean and reassemble the oem pump?
Cheers
I'm no expert either but I have done a top end job on my bike. At the beginning of this thread there was speculation where the missing part of the oil ring rail went. Now we know. Apparently into the crankcase. The contaminants would have at a minimum gone into the scavenge side of the pump, through passages in the cam plate where the relief valve is and into the dirty side of the filter. You didn't say if you cut the filter open, but if the filter was clogged enough so it's own bypass opened that oil went everywhere else. You absolutely need a factory service manual because the engine section should have an explanation with pictures describing everywhere in that engine the oil goes. Since it seems to me the piece of oil ring went from the bottom of the rear jug into the crankcase everything in there is suspect for contamination including both crankshaft bearings and both connecting rod bearings, and I don't see any that could ever be cleaned by flushing, so just like all the others I would say that engine needs to be totally torn down (and I mean every part of it that oil can go) and meticulously cleaned/inspected/replaced as necessary. Sorry I know that is not what you want to hear but that is my thoughts. Just inspecting the cam chest won't do.
Plus the oil tank would need to be inspected/cleaned!
Quoteyes I realise 20 thou over is on the diameter so 10 thou on the wall ...
although he's the machinist and has the cylinder in front of him I'd bore the 20 thou anyway so as to get a good look at the result ... it might be enough
you can always continue to the 97" Big Bore if needed
:up:
QuoteQuoteOh no. Sorry to see that.
Yeah, not good...
What would your next move be of it were your bike?
Thanks.
I had a 124 on my shop that had a horrible tune up to the point that destroyed the crank, the entire engine was filled with metallic debris, both aluminum from the pistons and metal from who knows what.
The crank was toasted and had to disassemble EVERYTHING, swap bearings over new ones in case the debris was stuck inside them, oil pump was trashed and the oil tank was full of metallic crap.
You got a good work ahead my friend, if you dont clean everything you will end up spending more money in the near future.
Being no expert I rely on the experts for certain things. I've done a few shovel head complete rebuilds, Helped a friend with an Evo.. Never even had a head off of a TC engine. Not that I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go where you have. For me here's where I let the tried and true Indy take over.. I give them the bottom end assembled minus the cam chest components and I take the pistons off. They get the jugs and heads also. I have them do what's needed in the lower end, heads and jugs. I have them assemble the lower end. Some will ask if you want to put the case halves together yourself. I say let them do it. They take care of the jugs boring, honing and piston fit. I use what ever pistons and rings they suggest. I have always assembled the top end my self. I have had literally 0 problems this way. Find yourself a good Indy and it will be worth the $$$$ spent. Just my 02 from a guy that doesn't do this stuff every day.
QuotePlus the oil tank would need to be inspected/cleaned!
Yep, thanks. Will do 👍
QuoteBeing no expert I rely on the experts for certain things. I've done a few shovel head complete rebuilds, Helped a friend with an Evo.. Never even had a head off of a TC engine. Not that I wouldn't hesitate for a second to go where you have. For me here's where I let the tried and true Indy take over.. I give them the bottom end assembled minus the cam chest components and I take the pistons off. They get the jugs and heads also. I have them do what's needed in the lower end, heads and jugs. I have them assemble the lower end. Some will ask if you want to put the case halves together yourself. I say let them do it. They take care of the jugs boring, honing and piston fit. I use what ever pistons and rings they suggest. I have always assembled the top end my self. I have had literally 0 problems this way. Find yourself a good Indy and it will be worth the $$$$ spent. Just my 02 from a guy that doesn't do this stuff every day.
Thanks motorhogman, really appreciate your advice.
I wish it was different, but the kind of Indy you are referring to just doesn't exist here where I live in the West cost of Australia. And if I can find someone who can do the bottom end, it's crazy expensive. A friend of mine just got quoted $1000 just to replace the crankshaft bearing that is part of the case only, nothing else....
There's an old guy who I know that may be able to help me with the bottom end, but this motor is a balanced motor as well, so I imagine it's even more complicated.
Thanks again.
QuoteI'm no expert either but I have done a top end job on my bike. At the beginning of this thread there was speculation where the missing part of the oil ring rail went. Now we know. Apparently into the crankcase. The contaminants would have at a minimum gone into the scavenge side of the pump, through passages in the cam plate where the relief valve is and into the dirty side of the filter. You didn't say if you cut the filter open, but if the filter was clogged enough so it's own bypass opened that oil went everywhere else. You absolutely need a factory service manual because the engine section should have an explanation with pictures describing everywhere in that engine the oil goes. Since it seems to me the piece of oil ring went from the bottom of the rear jug into the crankcase everything in there is suspect for contamination including both crankshaft bearings and both connecting rod bearings, and I don't see any that could ever be cleaned by flushing, so just like all the others I would say that engine needs to be totally torn down (and I mean every part of it that oil can go) and meticulously cleaned/inspected/replaced as necessary. Sorry I know that is not what you want to hear but that is my thoughts. Just inspecting the cam chest won't do.
Thanks for the advice. Yes, that's definantly not the news I was hoping for.... :doh:
In order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases - do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience, so I would have to pay to have it done.
Thanks.
There will be 2 crank bearings, one in each case half. I really have no idea if you could clean them out or not. The bearings are not too expensive. The flywheel assembly should lift out with the connecting rods attached. The real problem is if the connecting rod bearings need to be replaced the average Joe can't do this as it takes serious special equipment to disassemble the flywheel assembly. Maybe you could really flush it out somehow (maybe large bucket and lots of solvent?)...just don't know. I wish u the best.
Well things have changed for sure. I suggest contacting a good shop that has plates and does this work every day.
Contact: Mark Hood
'Hood Motor Service" is at, 46 Crozier Ave Daw Park 5041 South Australia.
Contact numbers are, Mobile 0418837668 and land line 08 82774049 hours 9-5 Mon to Fri ACST.
Quote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 05:03:23 PMIn order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases - do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience, so I would have to pay to have it done.
Thanks.
The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.
Quote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 08:07:53 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 05:03:23 PMIn order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases - do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience, so I would have to pay to have it done.
Thanks.
The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.
Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.
Adam, do you have a factory service manual?
Quote from: Hossamania on November 12, 2021, 10:28:27 PMAdam, do you have a factory service manual?
Yes, most definitely.
Quote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 10:05:49 PMQuote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 08:07:53 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 05:03:23 PMIn order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases - do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience, so I would have to pay to have it done.
Thanks.
The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.
Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.
Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.
Quote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 11:48:35 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 10:05:49 PMQuote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 08:07:53 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 05:03:23 PMIn order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases - do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience, so I would have to pay to have it done.
Thanks.
The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.
Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.
Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.
Thanks Turbo, and judging from the FSM I'm going to need a decent size workshop press..... This is getting more $$$ by the day. I'm still kicking myself for somehow allowing this to happen in the first place. :banghead:
Quote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 11:51:04 PMQuote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 11:48:35 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 10:05:49 PMQuote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 08:07:53 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 05:03:23 PMIn order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases - do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience, so I would have to pay to have it done.
Thanks.
The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.
Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.
Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.
Thanks Turbo, and judging from the FSM I'm going to need a decent size workshop press..... This is getting more $$$ by the day. I'm still kicking myself for somehow allowing this to happen in the first place. :banghead:
No press required. Purchase those two tools and that is all that is required to separate the case halves, press the crank out of the left side case and press the Timken back on to the crankshaft. Separating the cases and pressing them back in with the two tools I called out will take less than ten minutes on the bench.
Imagine if you will, the case halves with the flywheel installed is on top of a simple stand, maybe a piece of 6" PVC pipe with the output shaft pointing up. The tool to separate the cases is attached to the left side case with 4 bolts. Then a bolt is screwed into the middle of the tool that pulls the left side case off of the flywheel. Once the left side case is free the crankshaft can be simply gifted out of the right side case. Done.
To reassemble, same thing but with the other tool. The right side case is placed on a stand, the fly wheel is placed inside of it. The left side case is then placed in top of the crankshaft and the other case. Now the timken bearing and spacer are placed on the crank shaft and the tool presses it onto the output shaft. Done.
Everything else is a no brainer, stuff has to be clean, threads chased, sealant used, etc. Not really complicated stuff.
You will probably feel the need to coco on here and ask before you tighten a single bolt, etc, but seriously, do it yourself. Buy the tools, ask questions after you have read every thread on about this. Just do it.
Quote from: turboprop on November 13, 2021, 02:40:29 AMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 11:51:04 PMQuote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 11:48:35 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 10:05:49 PMQuote from: turboprop on November 12, 2021, 08:07:53 PMQuote from: Adam76 on November 12, 2021, 05:03:23 PMIn order to clean out the bottom end, once I have split the cases - do I need to have the flywheels actually removed? And also do I need to replaced the crank bearing?
Or just split cases, clean everything and reassemble?
I don't have a workshop press, or the experience, so I would have to pay to have it done.
Thanks.
The too to separate the case halves is inexpensive, so is the tool to press on the outer timken bearing (assuming your engine case has a timken on the left side). If your engine does not have a left side timken it is even easier. For about a $150 in tools you can easily split those cases wash everything and reassemble.
Thanks Turbo, it's a 2002 so I'm assuming it has a Timken bearing. Could you please give me the names of the tools and where a good place to buy them from?
Thanks for your advice.
Look at Jims and Georges Garage. You will need a case splitter and a timken bearing installer. These two tools for your '02 are also applicable to Evo and shovel engines.
Thanks Turbo, and judging from the FSM I'm going to need a decent size workshop press..... This is getting more $$$ by the day. I'm still kicking myself for somehow allowing this to happen in the first place. :banghead:
No press required. Purchase those two tools and that is all that is required to separate the case halves, press the crank out of the left side case and press the Timken back on to the crankshaft. Separating the cases and pressing them back in with the two tools I called out will take less than ten minutes on the bench.
Imagine if you will, the case halves with the flywheel installed is on top of a simple stand, maybe a piece of 6" PVC pipe with the output shaft pointing up. The tool to separate the cases is attached to the left side case with 4 bolts. Then a bolt is screwed into the middle of the tool that pulls the left side case off of the flywheel. Once the left side case is free the crankshaft can be simply gifted out of the right side case. Done.
To reassemble, same thing but with the other tool. The right side case is placed on a stand, the fly wheel is placed inside of it. The left side case is then placed in top of the crankshaft and the other case. Now the timken bearing and spacer are placed on the crank shaft and the tool presses it onto the output shaft. Done.
Everything else is a no brainer, stuff has to be clean, threads chased, sealant used, etc. Not really complicated stuff.
You will probably feel the need to coco on here and ask before you tighten a single bolt, etc, but seriously, do it yourself. Buy the tools, ask questions after you have read every thread on about this. Just do it.
Thanks a lot, that makes it actually sound achievable. A lot less complicated than the FSM makes it look when I had a brief look through it today.
With help, I think I can get it done! Cheers :up:
The thing I like best about HarleyTechTalk is the tech. There's a lot of people on this site who are very experienced and this would be a relatively easy job for many of them. Adam, please don't be offended but I don't think you should attempt this. It's just my opinion and is worth even less than what you pay for it. You said yourself you wouldn't be comfortable splitting the cases and I don't want to try to encourage you into something that might be out of your depth. Stick to your original plan of going 95" and redo the things you know how to do, but better. Get the front cylinder off and inspect the components. Get that cam chest apart and inspect the components. You mentioned changing the CR575 cams before they were even out. Why? What's wrong with them? Get the crankcase out of the frame and make some enquiries about who can split/inspect/refurbish that for you. Once the top end is off and the camchest is empty you need to remove the oil lines and remove the outer and inner primary cases before you can remove the bottom end from the frame. You'll need some special tools to remove/install the primary. You'll need a big torque wrench that will torque left handed. Just because a torque wrench has a reversible ratchet head doesn't mean it will actually torque in both directions. Is your service manual genuine HD? Don't just briefly look at it, take some time and read it. Then read it again. Oil tank and lines are not that difficult to remove. The factory clamps on the oil tank drain tube can be tricky. Oil tank can easily be scratched on the seat post during removal. There's lots of other little things. Twin Cam Softail bottom end is a bit complicated. You want to reuse as many parts as you can to save money. Counter balancer sprockets and chain will need inspection. That's probably what chewed up the oil rail and probably also the noise you heard upon initial start up. Lifters can be disassembled for inspection. Do some searches on the site. There's heaps of good information worth studying. Plenty of hits on this thread, there's more than a few who want to see you get this bike back on the road. Take your time, stay focussed and don't get too far ahead of yourself. Here's an old thread you might find interesting. It's pretty involved. Bear in mind the equipment Ken has access to and his ability to make special needs tooling and his previous experience. Unfortunately the pics don't seem to have survived but you never know, they might magically reappear. Either way, it's a good read
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86710.0.html (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86710.0.html)
This part is going to suck but, resist the urge to rush to get it done. Every step needs to be rehearsed, maybe more than once to make sure you understand it and will do it correctly. Not to mention making sure you've done everything required prior to the step you're on.
Agree 100% with deuced that a TC softail bottom end is not something to do first time in a home shop with limited tools even with the prospect of buying the tools. All the R&R of major components plus cleaning sure why not. Use the factory SM to assist with that.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 13, 2021, 06:27:09 AMThe thing I like best about HarleyTechTalk is the tech. There's a lot of people on this site who are very experienced and this would be a relatively easy job for many of them. Adam, please don't be offended but I don't think you should attempt this. It's just my opinion and is worth even less than what you pay for it. You said yourself you wouldn't be comfortable splitting the cases and I don't want to try to encourage you into something that might be out of your depth. Stick to your original plan of going 95" and redo the things you know how to do, but better. Get the front cylinder off and inspect the components. Get that cam chest apart and inspect the components. You mentioned changing the CR575 cams before they were even out. Why? What's wrong with them? Get the crankcase out of the frame and make some enquiries about who can split/inspect/refurbish that for you. Once the top end is off and the camchest is empty you need to remove the oil lines and remove the outer and inner primary cases before you can remove the bottom end from the frame. You'll need some special tools to remove/install the primary. You'll need a big torque wrench that will torque left handed. Just because a torque wrench has a reversible ratchet head doesn't mean it will actually torque in both directions. Is your service manual genuine HD? Don't just briefly look at it, take some time and read it. Then read it again. Oil tank and lines are not that difficult to remove. The factory clamps on the oil tank drain tube can be tricky. Oil tank can easily be scratched on the seat post during removal. There's lots of other little things. Twin Cam Softail bottom end is a bit complicated. You want to reuse as many parts as you can to save money. Counter balancer sprockets and chain will need inspection. That's probably what chewed up the oil rail and probably also the noise you heard upon initial start up. Lifters can be disassembled for inspection. Do some searches on the site. There's heaps of good information worth studying. Plenty of hits on this thread, there's more than a few who want to see you get this bike back on the road. Take your time, stay focussed and don't get too far ahead of yourself. Here's an old thread you might find interesting. It's pretty involved. Bear in mind the equipment Ken has access to and his ability to make special needs tooling and his previous experience. Unfortunately the pics don't seem to have survived but you never know, they might magically reappear. Either way, it's a good read
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86710.0.html (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,86710.0.html)
Thanks deuced, to be honest I think we're on the same page, and I'm not very comfortable doing the softail bottom end - especially with the counter balancers.
I really appreciate your honesty and it may have saved me from even more potential problems.
Thanks for all your advice and help.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 13, 2021, 07:19:25 AMAgree 100% with deuced that a TC softail bottom end is not something to do first time in a home shop with limited tools even with the prospect of buying the tools. All the R&R of major components plus cleaning sure why not. Use the factory SM to assist with that.
Thanks Don, I appreciate your advice. I agree and am not 100% confident of my ability to pull apart, clean and reassemble the softail bottom end.
I hope it's not too expensive to get done professionally.... things like that are very rare and very expensive this end of town.
Cheers
Thanks guys.
I'm pulling the camchest and oil pump.
Are my new lifters susceptible to any kind of damage with the metal shavings that have honed through the motor?
Or are they ok to take out and re-use?
Will they need to be dismantled, cleaned and reassembled?
Thanks
It's probably a good idea to disassemble and clean them. Do the rollers too. Then reassemble lubed and store until needed. The lifters are a better filter than your filter. One spec of contaminant and it can fail if over time it plugs up.
File pic, ignore the colours except for the grey.
567F9C7D-743C-4C7F-91BA-FC986F7BAE12.jpg
When you take the cam cover off, oil will come out. Place a pan under the area to catch that oil. I wrap a plastic bag around the frame under the cam cover so that the oil won't get into the cloth covering on the clutch cable and wiring in that area. It just drips off the plastic bag into the catch pan.
As you remove things make note of where they came from and how they were orientated. If reusable, it's good practice to put things back where they came from.
Lifters. First check the outside. Is the roller ok? Is the body ok? Is the pushrod cup ok? There's a circlip above the pushrod cup that holds everything in. Need to remove that circlip to remove the internals. Be careful not to distort the circlip. Wear eye protection in case the circlip goes flying. Make note of how the lifter components come out. Do you have an old lifter you can practice on? The circlip may be a different shape but the principle is the same.
Go to the home page and do a search for lifter disassembly. Might find some pics.
So, you've already got the other cylinder off? Pushrods and tubes removed?
Also I'm glad you didn't get that plug out from the bottom of the crankcase. Leave it there.
Don't try to remove the roller from the lifter. Inspect the surface of the roller, the area that rides on the cam lobe. The roller is a needle bearing, you can spray some brake clean though it as you turn it to clean it. Does it turn smoothly? Were these lifters new when you started this 95" project?
WD40 probably better, you're more likely to have that on hand and the little tube you stick in the nozzle will provide a jet stream.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 13, 2021, 05:32:55 PMDon't try to remove the roller from the lifter. Inspect the surface of the roller, the area that rides on the cam lobe. The roller is a needle bearing, you can spray some brake clean though it as you turn it to clean it. Does it turn smoothly? Were these lifters new when you started this 95" project?
Thanks for all the info on the lifters - yes they were brand new fueling HP+ lifters.
Quote from: kd on November 13, 2021, 05:16:02 PMIt's probably a good idea to disassemble and clean them. Do the rollers too. Then reassemble lubed and store until needed. The lifters are a better filter than your filter. One spec of contaminant and it can fail if over time it plugs up.
Thanks kd, appreciate your help.
I think I'm officially depressed. :sink:
But how good will you feel when you get it sorted? :chop:
Quote from: -deuced- on November 13, 2021, 11:34:34 PMBut how good will you feel when you get it sorted? :chop:
Yeah, will feel good. 👍
Thanks
Well I took the camchest apart today and everything looked ok until I got to the oil pump... . Unfortunately that metal is not my missing piece of oil rail...
I also see there's a bunch of metal chips and shavings in the bottom of the oil tank.... There's no way I'm getting off lightly with this one.
20211114_193318.jpg
20211114_193416.jpg
Since you now know for sure the debris went through the entire system. I'd also consider replacing the cam plate. You can try to flush it, but you can't know for sure.
You may have reached the point you should sit back and take a deep breath and look at the big picture. You 2002 engine is the last year for Timken drive side bearings and desirable. Necessary :nix: Depending on availability for you, consider a takeout softail engine and compare costs before sinking your budget any deeper into what you have going on. You could even run a stock engine while you scrape together what you need to fix yours right (or maybe even better) on your own. I`m feeling your pain and wondering what I would do if it was me and right at the beginning of riding season to boot.
Well Adam,now that you have enough evidence that your engine is contaminated with metal chaff throughout all oil passages a complete disassembly of the entire unit is dictated,that means replacement of all bearings, oil seals and associated parts. And like KD mentioned the replacement by a takeoff engine from a trustable source might save you a heap of dollars and hours of labour, thus giving you peace of mind. I can feel your pain and worries and wish you the most comfortable way out of your dilemma.
Armin.
Camplate and anything else that's supposed to have oil in it or on it is fubar.
Lot of stuff for early TC's is NLA from moco. Have to try and source used parts or go aftermarket. And still got the crankcase to deal with.
So, everything looked ok until you got to the oil pump? Really? Post some pics of the other parts. Get that piece out of the oil pump and give us a better look at it.
Adam, I think it's you being polite but it's really not necessary to quote and reply to every post. Just add to the conversation, mate. We can keep up.
I am the world's slowest typer! Two more replies while I wrote the above. Yeah, what I'd said.
Thanks guys, appreciate the replies, even though the news is not good.
Yes deuced, my way of being polite - will stop quoting everyone now 😁
It's crazy how much damage a small piece of broken oil support rail can cause....
kd, you mentioned swapping out the motor for another take out softail motor. What years / displacement will fit my bike?
Thanks
Adam you need to stick with five speed Twin Cam Softail motors. So 88 inch is what you want to look for.
Thanks Ohio, unfortunately we don't have the numbers of bikes around as you guys in the states do, and therefore take out motors are rare and expensive....
I'm just going to have to take my time and formulate a list of everything I need to do to fix my existing motor.
Thanks everyone for your support.
Cheers
Any softail motor from 2000 to 2006 will fit. Yeah, you could probably find one, there's a couple of wreckers around the country, but my guess it'd cost you between 2000 and 4000 Australian dollars with freight depending on where you get it from. History and condition of used motor is unknown. Check local registration laws regarding engine swap. It's a big job probably best handled by a shop. I doubt a dealer would want anything to do with it so you'll need to find an indy. Add on labour charges. Also you have to get the bike and the motor to the mechanic. Ask around for some quotes.
Another option could be a replacement motor through the dealer. Check out HD's remanufactured engine program. Others have gone this route with success. It'd probably cost about $10,000. Benefits include keeping existing numbers, warranty, later model internals (hydraulic cam chain tensioner etc) and they'll come and get your bike. How many dealers near you? Talk to them.
Another option would be aftermarket replacement engine. It does not have to be 124" but will still be over $10,000. Plus labour because again, probably better to have a shop do it.
Cut your losses and sell it? You won't get much for it in it's present condition.
Doesn't cost much to keep dismantling current motor and it's good experience. Post some pics.
I reckon you're in for a shock when you add up the cost of all the necessary replacement parts. Don't forget labour because some things will be better to get a shop to do. Look mate, it is what it is. No point beating yourself up over it, what's happened has happened. You need to work out what is the best option for you now.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 14, 2021, 04:51:04 PMAny softail motor from 2000 to 2006 will fit. Yeah, you could probably find one, there's a couple of wreckers around the country, but my guess it'd cost you between 2000 and 4000 Australian dollars with freight depending on where you get it from. History and condition of used motor is unknown. Check local registration laws regarding engine swap. It's a big job probably best handled by a shop. I doubt a dealer would want anything to do with it so you'll need to find an indy. Add on labour charges. Also you have to get the bike and the motor to the mechanic. Ask around for some quotes.
Another option could be a replacement motor through the dealer. Check out HD's remanufactured engine program. Others have gone this route with success. It'd probably cost about $10,000. Benefits include keeping existing numbers, warranty, later model internals (hydraulic cam chain tensioner etc) and they'll come and get your bike. How many dealers near you? Talk to them.
Another option would be aftermarket replacement engine. It does not have to be 124" but will still be over $10,000. Plus labour because again, probably better to have a shop do it.
Cut your losses and sell it? You won't get much for it in it's present condition.
Doesn't cost much to keep dismantling current motor and it's good experience. Post some pics.
I reckon you're in for a shock when you add up the cost of all the necessary replacement parts. Don't forget labour because some things will be better to get a shop to do. Look mate, it is what it is. No point beating yourself up over it, what's happened has happened. You need to work out what is the best option for you now.
Deuced, I found a 2006 Night Train engine withy gearbox west of Brisbane for $2600 (Auz dollars?) and it said negotiable. :wink: I PM'd Adam with the particulars as I don't know where he lives shipping or pick-up wise. I suspect it isn't the only one out there either. Just the first one in a two minute search. Drop the whole chunk in and roll? Continue disassembling the old engine and making a list? It'll make a good project. Maybe use the old cases and Timkin with the take out engine? Lots of options for probably way less expense. A rebuild for his as it stands will probably be twice that amount or more.
Added later:
It may come with paperwork that will justify the numbers change.
$2600 with a gearbox? Yeah, that sounds ok. He's about 4000km (2500 miles) from there if you went in a straight line. That'd have to travel in a great big U shape to get to him. I'm guessing $500 to $600 freight. Nice find, kd. There's an '03 (motor only) on the bay for $2800. 15000km on the motor plus freight and it's nearly as far away. They are out there.
I have my brother in Melbourne looking for one,
maybee Scotty can ask around in Adelaide area, one at the right price will turn up
I agree that looking for a suitable used motor would be the best solution. You could always plan a rebuild of yours at a later time.
I've been there too. When I upgraded my 96 inch to a 107 inch several years ago, the lower end couldn't take the additional stress and brass ended up going throughout the motor.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,64176.msg688568.html#msg688568 (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,64176.msg688568.html#msg688568)
This was my oil when drained.
(https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1542728950;topic=64176.0;attach=60638;image)
THANKS guys, really appreciate you helping me out with all the options available.
A used motor that 15 - 20 years old will come with it's own problems do doubt. Unless I find a really clean take out TC88, my best option might be to slowly dismantle and slowly chip away at rebuilding my motor.... Just not sure yet which way to go so I might just sit on it for a while.
Cheers.
Here is a photo from Hood Motors shop. I realize he is far from you but freight is cheap insurance the job is done once and right.
Adam, I found another softail 88ci engine in Dubbo nsw for you for $2,850 on eBay.com.au. 10,000 miles on it
"Engine off 2003 Softail Heritage Classic EFI . In good working order. 15900km
Will fit similar year models
VIN 1HD1BWB163Y068170
Looking at $100 to $300 freight to most major regional areas. Get in touch with postcode for firm freight quote."
Thanks mate - I also saw that one. Bit suspicious of the kms... and buying interstate it's always a big risk. How would I get it checked out?
Cheers
Quote from: Adam76 on November 15, 2021, 11:59:54 PMThanks mate - I also saw that one. Bit suspicious of the kms... and buying interstate it's always a big risk. How would I get it checked out?
Cheers
No worries. Use the Aussie forum and NSW harley Facebook groups of which there are many. Dubbo is a reasonably big town so there'll be somebody you can find who might check it out for you. Or find out who's a good mechanic or bike mechanic in Dubbo and pay for somebody to check it out. Ditto for the engine in Brisbane suggested as an option.
The seller in Dubbo is a bike part out business. 11,245 sales on eBay with 99.5% positive feedback. They have a website too you can check out to get an idea of service, returns etc and maybe call them
I got some parts off the guy in Dubbo. He is ok to deal with.
Not sure how you will get any assurances about a motor. The motor may have been going when the bike went in there, maybe it wasn't. I doubt he would be ok with somebody pulling it down before paying for it. A visual inspection is likely the best you will get.
Wait for Retroman, see if he can point you at something suitable closer to home, where you can get a look at it and ask some questions.
Then try Dubbo.
Well I've definitely take a step back to consider my options....
I pulled the inner cam bearings today. I really wish I hadn't.
I'm in way too deep with this bike and the motor build to stop now. It's a good bottom end with low miles and only .0018 pinion runout.
I'm going to have to take it really slowly and split the cases to clean and flush it all out. The very difficult parts I will take to my trusted mechanic, otherwise I would like to do (and learn) as much of it as I can.
20211121_171421.jpg
I assume you have the Harley workshop manual and parts book?
Just do it.
I took my 99 FLTRI motor apart without problems when the big end wore out - probably some manufacturing thing from it being a very early Twin Cam motor...
I read the manual for rebuilding the crankcase and getting the clearances right on the Timken bearings... and took it to the local dealer for them to do it! (kneel on a stool indeed!)
With the crank done the rest is just carefully bolting everything back on.
Being in the UK I found I could buy quality aftermarket oil pumps, lifters etc cheaper than from the MoCo. Being in Oz you may well find the same.
Did the oil pump cause the big end to go? Dunno, but I certainly wasn't going to risk it!
I fitted gear drive cams in the olden days before conversion cams. I would always go gear drive. With that cam cover sealed I'm not going in there again.
Thanks PC-hater, thanks for sharing and giving me the confidence to do as much as I can and take the rest to a pro.
Cheers
So I'm starting to order the replacement parts in going to need to split the cases, clean out, and reassemble...
Do my conrod bearings need replacing as well?
Thanks
Most likely, but you cannot select them until the rods and pin have been inspected, honed and measured. They are not a one size fits all. Think in terms of piston rings.
Quote from: Adam76 on November 21, 2021, 10:18:14 PMSo I'm starting to order the replacement parts in going to need to split the cases, clean out, and reassemble...
Do my conrod bearings need replacing as well?
Thanks
I am assuming you have a shop that you chose to do that for you, this isn't something most can do at a home shop. The decision is made upon inspection as described by turboprop
For the crank - you are finding lots of bits of metal as you take the engine apart.
Assume some of it went through the big end bearings...
Buy a rebuilt welded crank from the USA. I did, not even funny money despite customs and shipping and taxes.
Less than half the cost of buying a new crank from HD in the UK.
It was about GBP 650 by the time it arrived at my house.
Resist the urge to get a stroker crank unless you really really do feel the need!
And, generally those cranks were always considered to be not rebuildable.
It needs big boys toys and the skills to use them.
We have neither.
Quote from: turboprop on November 22, 2021, 05:33:37 AMMost likely, but you cannot select them until the rods and pin have been inspected, honed and measured. They are not a one size fits all. Think in terms of piston rings.
Understood.
Thanks turbo
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 22, 2021, 08:28:27 AMQuote from: Adam76 on November 21, 2021, 10:18:14 PMSo I'm starting to order the replacement parts in going to need to split the cases, clean out, and reassemble...
Do my conrod bearings need replacing as well?
Thanks
I am assuming you have a shop that you chose to do that for you, this isn't something most can do at a home shop. The decision is made upon inspection as described by turboprop
Thanks Don, yes I have a shop for that -- way beyond my knowledge and ability.
At this point, I feel like I'm not that far from considering a stroker crank? May not be that much more $$
Thanks.
I would definitely get a 4-3/8" crank for your lower end, and I'd suggest stopping at 103". Save some cylinder for the future.
I managed to find a local guy that did 14,000 original kms on his '02 softail Deuce before splitting and boring his cases to fit a 110" combo.
He has offered to give me (for some beer) his original and in very good condition camshaft plate and complete factory crankshaft flywheel assembly.
This is going to save me a lot of $$$. It's really nice to have some good news come my way for a change. :soda:
The FSM says to completely remove the transmission before removing the crankcase.
Is this really necessary? Or can I get away with just moving it back a little?
Thanks
Hello Adam, when I gave my 2001 FLSTCI engine a total overhaul I did not remove the gearbox and I believe your 2002 Fatboy has the same frame layout. Lots of luck!!!
Armin.
You'all probably sick of this thread already, but I have an update and I'm hoping to see this project all the way through...
Picked up a low mileage stock cam plate and 2 oil pumps - one older style and one newer style, not sure if it's compatible with the cam plate.
Also from the same bike a complete flywheel assembly taken out at 14,000kms for a stroker crank.
Got pretty lucky with these parts.
20211127_191646.jpg20211127_191547.jpg20211127_191902.jpg
If you switch to conversion cams and a hydraulic tensioner plate, you can use the new style pump.
Thanks, yeah I didn't think it'd work. Invested too much in these cams I have and both new tensioner shoes, so I'll have to stick with what I've got.
Cheers
Adam what year is the crank from? If it's an OEM HD 4-3/8 crank it won't work in your bike. The later OEM has a 24 spline sprocket shaft, the earlier has a 10 spline. I can't see that side of the crank in the pick. It may be ok, just want to as and be sure.
It's got the big rod ends, so he's OK
I did see the normal rod ends. I wonder it it could be aftermarket for a later motor?
But if I zoom in on the plug, that does look to be HD and not S&S.
Your right, should be ok.
In reply #132 he says the crank is from an 02 Softail Deuce. His is an 02 Fatboy so he should be golden. That's real good news this is coming together for him/
Yes, crank is from same year softail.
I'm getting all the parts and bearings I need to order.
I have the take out cam plate that only has 14,000kms on it --> do I need to replace the outer cam plate bearings with a new set? Or should I be ok with the original ones that are in there and appear to be in good shape. (obviously I have a new set of inner cam bearings to go in).
I know the easy answer is replace everything.... but every $100 counts and if it's not really necessary?
20211128_074857.jpg
Thanks :up:
Quote from: Adam76 on November 27, 2021, 03:19:56 PM(obviously I have a new set of inner cam bearings to go in).
Full Compliment ?
I wouldn't worry about replacing the roller bearing in the cam plate.It is quite robust for the job that it is doing.The ball bearing is probably fine but should be very cheap to replace nonetheless.
You will find the 07up oil pump with no oring has a different bolt pattern.
:gob: you say you've read the manual. Looks like you missed the part in bold type about using new bearings. It's not the easy answer, it's the correct answer. The ball bearing in the camplate has been side loaded. Pressure has been exerted on the inner race during removal of or from the front cam shaft. A new bearing should be installed. The rear bearing may be serviceable but with the amount of parts that need replacing on this engine you're really considering skimping on one bearing? And where's the inner race?
On the left in your pic, the camplate with cams in it, is that from this engine? Did you reuse the camplate bearings when you changed cams? What's the condition of the journals?
There has been more than one inch of oil rail through this motor. That detritus in the inner cam bearing is not ring material, nor is the foreign piece in the oil pump.
When your crank and that deuce crank left the factory they were identical. It will fit however your crankcase bearings are toast. Can your mechanic set up a timken lower end? Can he check the timing of that chain sprocket? HD Street Performance has twice recommended someone and I doubt that was a name that just formed from letters magically rearranging in his bowl of alphabet soup.
Conrod bearings. What, big end? How do you think they come out? Your pinion runout is 0.0018? How did you measure that? Doesn't matter, you have a replacement crank and even from that pic I can see that it is indeed low miles.
Just move the transmission back a little? You'd still have to remove the primary and the swing arm first.
A stroker crank? :wtf:
What brand is your FSM? You say you want to learn but I don't think you're too inclined to put much effort into research and study. Your engine is not in it's present condition because of bad luck, it's because of bad workmanship. Seriously, step away from the tools. Put everything in a trailer and take it to a shop.
:down: Don't Like
Quote from: -deuced- on November 29, 2021, 11:41:28 AMyou say you've read the manual. Looks like you missed the part in bold type about using new bearings. It's not the easy answer, it's the correct answer. The ball bearing in the camplate has been side loaded. Pressure has been exerted on the inner race during removal of or from the front cam shaft. A new bearing should be installed. The rear bearing may be serviceable but with the amount of parts that need replacing on this engine you're really considering skimping on one bearing?
Ok point taken. I will order both bearings.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 29, 2021, 11:41:28 AMDid you reuse the camplate bearings when you changed cams?
No, put new ones in.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 29, 2021, 11:41:28 AMThere has been more than one inch of oil rail through this motor. That detritus in the inner cam bearing is not ring material, nor is the foreign piece in the oil pump.
When your crank and that deuce crank left the factory they were identical. It will fit however your crankcase bearings are toast. Can your mechanic set up a timken lower end? Can he check the timing of that chain sprocket?
Yes, he is able to do this.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 29, 2021, 11:41:28 AMpinion runout is 0.0018? How did you measure that? Doesn't matter, you have a replacement crank and even from that pic I can see that it is indeed low miles.
Just move the transmission back a little? You'd still have to remove the primary and the swing arm first.
Already done.
Quote from: -deuced- on November 29, 2021, 11:41:28 AMWhat brand is your FSM? You say you want to learn but I don't think you're too inclined to put much effort into research and study.
Yes I do plenty research.... but there's plenty of misinformation on the internet. That's why I'm a site supporter here. I'm pulling the motor and rebuilding the bottom end because I'm following advice given to me here on this forum, but you say I'm not listening?
Quote from: -deuced- on November 29, 2021, 11:41:28 AMYour engine is not in it's present condition because of bad luck, it's because of bad workmanship. Seriously, step away from the tools. Put everything in a trailer and take it to a shop.
The whole crankcase and new crank and all new crankcase bearings are going to a shop, did you think I was going to do it myself?
:wtf:
Easy big fella, we're not all as experienced as you, and I'm not made of money.
Peace.
I thought my post might ruffle a few feathers, that's why I added the "don't like" button, lol. Hope nobody damaged their screens trying to press it.
Sometimes it's hard to convey intent in writing. Most of my previous posts were meant to be positive and along the lines of it might not be that bad. When you posted the pic of what came out of the oil filter, well, it's even worse than expected. Pleased that you've engaged a mechanic who is able to do the work.
It's also easy to misinterpret others' writings. I was under the impression that you were skimming through the fsm and/or reading an aftermarket one. I apologise.
I am of a vintage where the training I received was thorough and intense. It was many years after I finished my apprenticeship before I realised just how good that training was however a lot of my experience has been gained from costly errors that I have made. And I'm still gaining experience :hyst:
I probably could've worded better my comment of it not being bad luck.
No offence taken.
:hug:
Pulled the bottom end out today, and split the cases.
I have found a shop with the right tools and equipment to do the crank work and Timken bearing, so that's going ahead soon.
I ran into a small problem removing the balancer shaft assembly. Five of the 6 torx bolts came out relatively easy, except for the last one of course. It's just starting to slip and won't come out. I've tried heat, penetrating spray, even the impact wrench and it's not budging. It's the one with the red arrow in the picture.
Any ideas on what might work to get this last bolt out? Should I drill into it and use an eazy out tool?
Thanks.
crankcase.jpgbalancer shaft assembly.jpg
If you have access to hand help impact driver I'd try that first. You strike this with a hammer, cause a slight rotation, and the force should keep the bit in the fastener.
I have the same tool I bought around 1978, they don't get used that often, but are great when you have the situation you have.
https://www.tekton.com/1-2-inch-drive-impact-screwdriver-set-2910 (https://www.tekton.com/1-2-inch-drive-impact-screwdriver-set-2910)
(https://www.tekton.com/images/product/2910_1.jpg)
are you going to stud the right side dowel holes for the camplate ?
as Brian suggests ....... Impact Driver
:agree: X2 If that doesn't work weld a nut onto it. The heat of welding will help and the hex will give a good grasp.
:agree: with what FSG says too. :teeth:
Thanks guys, they are all really helpful suggestions.
Much appreciated.
FSG I wasn't going to stud the right side dowel holes for the cam plate, but I guess I could read up on how to do it. :up:
Cheers
:up: I'd sure bee studding :SM:
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 02, 2021, 09:19:11 PMIf you have access to hand help impact driver I'd try that first. You strike this with a hammer, cause a slight rotation, and the force should keep the bit in the fastener.
OK, my local tool shop has a set.... which bit do you suggest using? The flat blade?
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on December 03, 2021, 12:12:07 AMQuote from: Ohio HD on December 02, 2021, 09:19:11 PMIf you have access to hand help impact driver I'd try that first. You strike this with a hammer, cause a slight rotation, and the force should keep the bit in the fastener.
OK, my local tool shop has a set.... which bit do you suggest using? The flat blade?
Thanks
You want to use the bit that matches the fastener, it may not be a part of that kit. You may need to get one. Hard to tell, but looks like it's a torx fastener.
Use a heat gun on the case where the bolt goes in, not on the bolt itself. Torx bit that fits the bolt snugly, in a socket that fits the impact driver.balancer shaft assembly.jpg
Ditto on the impact driver!
Bought mine in the early 70's and still use it occasionally.
:missed:
Just for ha-ha's...I have had an issue or two with Torx fasteners. On a few occasions I was able to remove a stubborn, or damaged Torx with an Allen, or Hexhead wrench/socket Whatever You'd like to call it. And vice versa. Bad Allen fastener...used a Torx.
Quote from: HogMike on December 03, 2021, 06:33:54 AMDitto on the impact driver!
Bought mine in the early 70's and still use it occasionally.
:missed:
I bought an impact driver, and it didn't even make a dent.... I realised that i was applying heat to the wrong area. The bolts are quite long and the threaded section is only at the end on the bolt. Once I heated up that area, it came out in one turn of the impact gun.
I now have both sides of the crankcase back from the shop where they pressed in the good crank and all the necessary bearings.
Just waiting for some Yamabond to put the cases back together.
Take a blunt nose drift and hit it hard first. I assume the head is not rounded out yet. Use an impact gun to get it broken loose not hand tools. Some of the electrics like a Dewalt are not too violent. The head of the bolt and the tool must be as new, not damaged for success.
Quote from: Adam76 on December 18, 2021, 03:31:27 AMQuote from: HogMike on December 03, 2021, 06:33:54 AMDitto on the impact driver!
Bought mine in the early 70's and still use it occasionally.
:missed:
I bought an impact driver, and it didn't even make a dent.... I realised that i was applying heat to the wrong area. The bolts are quite long and the threaded section is only at the end on the bolt. Once I heated up that area, it came out in one turn of the impact gun.
I now have both sides of the crankcase back from the shop where they pressed in the good crank and all the necessary bearings.
Just waiting for some Yamabond to put the cases back together.
Just checking, you did have the impact set to loosen the fastener, not tighten?
Also using them, I always try to keep tension on the fastener in a counter-clockwise rotation so that the impact hits aren't wasted. All of the rotation is against the fastener.
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 18, 2021, 09:07:36 AMQuote from: Adam76 on December 18, 2021, 03:31:27 AMQuote from: HogMike on December 03, 2021, 06:33:54 AMDitto on the impact driver!
Bought mine in the early 70's and still use it occasionally.
:missed:
I bought an impact driver, and it didn't even make a dent.... I realised that i was applying heat to the wrong area. The bolts are quite long and the threaded section is only at the end on the bolt. Once I heated up that area, it came out in one turn of the impact gun.
I now have both sides of the crankcase back from the shop where they pressed in the good crank and all the necessary bearings.
Just waiting for some Yamabond to put the cases back together.
Just checking, you did have the impact set to loosen the fastener, not tighten?
Also using them, I always try to keep tension on the fastener in a counter-clockwise rotation so that the impact hits aren't wasted. All of the rotation is against the fastener.
I could have made the same mistake in my younger years, but mine had some little arrows to show which way to tighten/loosen!
:agree:
Quote from: HogMike on December 18, 2021, 11:34:55 AMQuote from: Ohio HD on December 18, 2021, 09:07:36 AMQuote from: Adam76 on December 18, 2021, 03:31:27 AMQuote from: HogMike on December 03, 2021, 06:33:54 AMDitto on the impact driver!
Bought mine in the early 70's and still use it occasionally.
:missed:
I bought an impact driver, and it didn't even make a dent.... I realised that i was applying heat to the wrong area. The bolts are quite long and the threaded section is only at the end on the bolt. Once I heated up that area, it came out in one turn of the impact gun.
I now have both sides of the crankcase back from the shop where they pressed in the good crank and all the necessary bearings.
Just waiting for some Yamabond to put the cases back together.
Just checking, you did have the impact set to loosen the fastener, not tighten?
Also using them, I always try to keep tension on the fastener in a counter-clockwise rotation so that the impact hits aren't wasted. All of the rotation is against the fastener.
I could have made the same mistake in my younger years, but mine had some little arrows to show which way to tighten/loosen!
:agree:
:SM: Yes, I had in on loosen, not tighten. The tool itself has markings and arrows to make sure you're going in the right direction.
Anyways, got it off easily once I applied the heat in the right place. :doh:
Just waiting on some Yamabond to reseal the cases.
Got the case back with the new (to me) crank and all bearings pressed in. Balancer shaft assembly is in.
Any good ideas on how to stabilise the left case half really well so the balancer shaft nuts can be tightened? The FSM calls for 80 ft/lbs and I don't want to be pushing on the cylinder studs at all. I was thinking maybe putting it back in place in the frame and loosely putting the two front engine mount bolts in place?
Merry Christmas to you, and may the Lord bless you and your families.
20211224_131711.jpg20211224_131657.jpg
Pop the chain and sprockets back off, and align the three colored links with the three arrows- one on each sprocket, and the third on the pinion shaft sprocket. Take a metal shaft ( around 1/4" - 5/16" diameter a few inches long) that just barely slides into the hole in the counter balancer and housing, and it will hold the assy for torqueing. (I've seen guys use what used to be a #2 phillips screwdriver, but with the tip cut off)
Merry Christmas!
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 24, 2021, 05:22:31 AMPop the chain and sprockets back off, and align the three colored links with the three arrows- one on each sprocket, and the third on the pinion shaft sprocket. Take a metal shaft ( around 1/4" - 5/16" diameter a few inches long) that just barely slides into the hole in the counter balancer and housing, and it will hold the assy for torqueing. (I've seen guys use what used to be a #2 phillips screwdriver, but with the tip cut off)
Merry Christmas!
Thanks Rigidthumper, I have inserted the balancer locking bolts, but just cant get enough leverage to torque that bloody nut down to 80 ft/lbs..... The whole case keeps moving.
I'm tempted to mount the left side of the case back into the frame by using the two front engine mount bolts.... but I'm worried about cracking the case?? Any other methods?
Thanks, and a happy new year to you all.
This is one of those times a friend comes in handy :wink:
I was going to mention that, rigid you beat me to it.
or
Sit on the ground, cross legs in an Indian style position, with a towel down between your lap and the case, hug it with the left arm pulling it towards you. And pull the torque wrench towards you with the right hand. Then reverse the case and do the other side.
You see, I don't have any friends...... :SM:
Thanks guys, will try that.
there's a YouTube video of this exact procedure, and they use an air gun / rattle gun / impact wrench (whatever it's called in the US) to do these nuts up. I'm no expert, but I'm willing to bet that's NOT a good idea...
Engine cases are back together. Just waiting on my pistons and cylinders to arrive (Thanks Don) and I'm just about there.
Have a good new year, and thanks for all the help and advice you have given me on this build.
20211231_112003.jpg
a few things to do while you wait ..
take 50 thou of the compensator nut if it's not been shortened already
open up the top ends of the PR Tubes to 5/8" if you have that drill bit, 15 or 15.5 mm if it
.... and 1/4" studs and 12 point flange nuts in the 2 dowel holes for the cam plate are a good idea if not done yet too.
And just because you can, flush/clean the oil bag & lines, again; you want this project to give a you as many decades of satisfaction, as it gave you moments of frustration.
Quote from: Adam76 on December 30, 2021, 07:53:25 PMEngine cases are back together. Just waiting on my pistons and cylinders to arrive (Thanks Don) and I'm just about there.
Have a good new year, and thanks for all the help and advice you have given me on this build.
20211231_112003.jpg
Really glad to see you doing the bulk of this yourself.
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 31, 2021, 03:54:44 AMAnd just because you can, flush/clean the oil bag & lines, again; you want this project to give a you as many decades of satisfaction, as it gave you moments of frustration.
Thanks, yes flushed oil tank and oil lines many times!!! I'm not taking any chances now with this build... :up:
I want it to run well, and for a very long time.
Quote from: FSG on December 30, 2021, 09:06:58 PMa few things to do while you wait ..
take 50 thou of the compensator nut if it's not been shortened already
open up the top ends of the PR Tubes to 5/8" if you have that drill bit, 15 or 15.5 mm if it
Thanks FSG.
When opening up the top of the PRs, how do you prevent metal shavings going into the body of the PR tube?
Just got my heads out to clean up the fouled exhaust port, and noticed a few minor scratches on the machined surface.... I know it's just a picture, but do you think I need to get the heads milled again to clean them up?
Hopefully not, because I'm already at 83cc and pushing 10.3 (9.6 corrected) compression with my .030 mls gaskets and CR575 cams. :scratch:
20220103_184602.jpg20220103_184530.jpg
Doesn't look deep enough to bother with. Issues arise if there's a gouge that connects the combustion chamber with the outside world, and I don't see anything like that in your pics.
I use a small piece of sandpaper to smooth the opening after boring the pushrod tube inners, and a bottle brush with soapy water to clean the pushrod tube tops after boring them. Rinse well, inspect, and reassemble.
Do not mill them. Use a fine whetstone 600 grit and WD40 to take care of minors like that.
Quote from: Adam76 on January 03, 2022, 01:44:03 AMQuote from: FSG on December 30, 2021, 09:06:58 PMa few things to do while you wait ..
take 50 thou of the compensator nut if it's not been shortened already
open up the top ends of the PR Tubes to 5/8" if you have that drill bit, 15 or 15.5 mm if it
Thanks FSG.
When opening up the top of the PRs, how do you prevent metal shavings going into the body of the PR tube?
I'm not FSG, but that can't be helped. You just wash them out before using them.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 03, 2022, 08:29:44 AMQuote from: Adam76 on January 03, 2022, 01:44:03 AMQuote from: FSG on December 30, 2021, 09:06:58 PMa few things to do while you wait ..
take 50 thou of the compensator nut if it's not been shortened already
open up the top ends of the PR Tubes to 5/8" if you have that drill bit, 15 or 15.5 mm if it
Thanks FSG.
When opening up the top of the PRs, how do you prevent metal shavings going into the body of the PR tube?
I'm not FSG, but that can't be helped. You just wash them out before using them.
I think FSG was talking about drilling out the top of the top section of pushrod tube. Drill the inside to 5/8" to a depth of about 1 1/2'. DO NOT do it by hand. It is best done on a lathe. Any machine shop can do all 4 tubes in a few minutes if you don't have a lathe or a friend to help you.
OK thanks.... I get it now. PR cover tube (not the top oil opening of the actual PR) :bf:
Yes sir.
It's not mandatory to do this. It just helps give additional clearance to the pushrod.
I have the bottom end back in the frame all bolted up and ready for the top end. Just waiting on some .040" head gaskets (Thanks Don) because with the .030" and the piston's dome volume of 6.7 has pushed my actual corrected compression to 9.8 and my ccp to 213.
With the .040" HG I'm at 9.64 corrected and 208 ccp -- still not sure that's going to be ok especially with the bike being carbed not EFI. It will be getting dyno tuned though and it has DTT ignition module.
Any tips / tricks on slipping the cylinders down over the pistons during assembly? What's the best method? Ring compressor tool?
Thanks
engine.jpg
ring comp.jpg
You can use ring compressors as long as they will slip off the piston and through between the studs. You can also put a couple of dowels with some gas line over them under the pistons and slide the barrels down, then use your finger tips and a popsicle stick. Squeeze the rings together and push them into the ring grooves with the help of the popsicle stick until the barrel drops. Do one ring at a time. It's not that hard and you get good control of the ring gap position.
Others may suggest placing the piston and rings into the bottom of the barrel and leave the pin hole exposed. Slide the barrel on and slip the pin and clip in. A little persnickety and there's a risk of losing the clip into the bottom end.
Quote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 06:49:47 PMI have the bottom end back in the frame all bolted up and ready for the top end. Just waiting on some .040" head gaskets (Thanks Don) because with the .030" and the piston's dome volume of 6.7 has pushed my actual corrected compression to 9.8 and my ccp to 213.
With the .040" HG I'm at 9.62 corrected and 205 ccp -- still not sure that's going to be ok especially with the bike being carbed not EFI. It will be getting dyno tuned though and it has DTT ignition module.
Any tips / tricks on slipping the cylinders down over the pistons during assembly? What's the best method? Ring compressor tool?
Thanks
I'd be a little concerned about that compression with a carb. A lot depends on how good he can tune it, and what your riding style is. It won't tolerate any lugging.
What cams are you running?
Are you using base gaskets?
Quote from: kd on January 07, 2022, 06:59:11 PMYou can use ring compressors as long as they will slip off the piston and through between the studs. You can also put a couple of dowels with some gas line over them under the pistons and slide the barrels down, then use your finger tips and a popsicle stick. Squeeze the rings together and push them into the ring grooves with the help of the popsicle stick until the barrel drops. Do one ring at a time. It's not that hard and you get good control of the ring gap position.
Others may suggest placing the piston and rings into the bottom of the barrel and leave the pin hole exposed. Slide the barrel on and slip the pin and clip in. A little persnickety and there's a risk of losing the clip into the bottom end.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:05:13 PMQuote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 06:49:47 PMI have the bottom end back in the frame all bolted up and ready for the top end. Just waiting on some .040" head gaskets (Thanks Don) because with the .030" and the piston's dome volume of 6.7 has pushed my actual corrected compression to 9.8 and my ccp to 213.
With the .040" HG I'm at 9.62 corrected and 205 ccp -- still not sure that's going to be ok especially with the bike being carbed not EFI. It will be getting dyno tuned though and it has DTT ignition module.
Any tips / tricks on slipping the cylinders down over the pistons during assembly? What's the best method? Ring compressor tool?
Thanks
I'd be a little concerned about that compression with a carb. A lot depends on how good he can tune it, and what your riding style is. It won't tolerate any lugging.
What cams are you running?
Yeah, I'm a little concerned and may have to get the piston dome milled down a bit... CR575 cams, they are brand new so I want to keep them -- otherwise I'd be throwing in a set of S&S 570s
Quote from: kd on January 07, 2022, 07:10:27 PMAre you using base gaskets?
Not yet - just have the base o-rings.
Can you buy thicker cyl base gaskets? Would that help?
Quote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 07:14:40 PMYeah, I'm a little concerned and may have to get the piston dome milled down a bit... CR575 cams, they are brand new so I want to keep them -- otherwise I'd be throwing in a set of S&S 570s
Yeah, I would do that. Or have someone slightly open the combustion chambers in the head. The piston is hard to know what to take off unless someone has done it and measured them before and after. Also if a head is opened up a little too much, you can machine the head gasket surface slightly to bring it back to a smaller chamber. Pistons, once they're machined, they're machined, done.
IMO the CR575's are worth the effort. They perform early, well, and actually like 10.5:1 compression.
The reason I asked about base gaskets is you can get a bit back there also. If you had time you can call Cometic and they will make you a set in any size material they have. It seems .020 and .010 are readily available (and maybe others). They can probably Express Post them to you.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:18:08 PMQuote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 07:14:40 PMYeah, I'm a little concerned and may have to get the piston dome milled down a bit... CR575 cams, they are brand new so I want to keep them -- otherwise I'd be throwing in a set of S&S 570s
Yeah, I would do that. Or have someone slightly open the combustion chambers in the head. The piston is hard to know what to take off unless someone has done it and measured them before and after. Also if a head is opened up a little too much, you can machine the head gasket surface slightly to bring it back to a smaller chamber. Pistons, once they're machined, they're machined, done.
New cams here for me is going to set me back another AUS $600... not sure that's the best way forward? Not sure how much it would be to open up the heads a little. Everything harley costs much more downunder.
Quote from: kd on January 07, 2022, 07:20:37 PMIMO the CR575's are worth the effort. They perform early, well, and actually like 10.5:1 compression.
The reason I asked about base gaskets is you can get a bit back there also. If you had time you can call Cometic and they will make you a set in any size material they have. It seems .020 and .010 are readily available (and maybe others). They can probably Express Post them to you.
Thanks kd.... 10.5 compression is the static compression right? My heads are cc'd at 83cc and corrected compression is the important one, right? So are you saying 9.62 corrected is OK??
Quote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 07:21:44 PMNew cams here for me is going to set me back another AUS $600... not sure that's the best way forward? Not sure how much it would be to open up the heads a little. Everything harley costs much more downunder.
What motor specs are you using to calculate the compression? What piston CC, head CC, etc.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:26:35 PMQuote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 07:21:44 PMNew cams here for me is going to set me back another AUS $600... not sure that's the best way forward? Not sure how much it would be to open up the heads a little. Everything harley costs much more downunder.
What motor specs are you using to calculate the compression? What piston CC, head CC, etc.
I'm putting in all my specs on both the BigBoyz calculator and the Hammer Performance calculator. Both give me a similar result.
What are the piston CC's?
Also what is the piston deck height?
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:30:22 PMWhat are the piston CC's?
Domes are 6.7cc KB + 40 pistons
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:31:17 PMAlso what is the piston deck height?
Haven't assembled yet to measure, but I'm basing it on .005 and hoping it's not less...
Change the pistons to 3.5cc in your calculations.
I'm sure that the piston manufacturer can tell you how much to machine from the dome.
That's a good idea. You will get to see the relationship between static and corrected. Static is the calculated difference between the swept column of air in the cylinder and the head CC (including gasket). Corrected is the actual compression you should find and is usually as a result of the intake valve timing on relation to BDC.
BTW I (and others) have used base gasket thickness to dial in deck height. My 120 was out of the hole so I added to the base gaskets to get 0 deck. For you, it would lower your compression but also open up the squish. Having a tight squish around .030 is optimum in controlling detonation. You can end up chasing your tail. On the other hand, the CR575 is at 35* ABDC which is not as bad as some and the stated best compression is in that 10.5 zone so it should run great.
Quote from: kd on January 07, 2022, 07:47:22 PMthe CR575 is at 35* ABDC which is not as bad as some and the stated best compression is in that 10.5 zone so it should run great.
So your basically saying 10.3 static and 9.65 corrected with 205ccp should be OK ?
Thanks
I think it would be a bear off idle and may hold up to about 5000 rpm from what I have seen and notice in a few builds. I followed the CR575 a bit when I saw the instant torque off idle. I have come to believe it needs the compression Wes at Cycle Rama recommends. Any downsides in your build (if any) are probably best discussed with him. I'm sure he will be able to tell you what to expect.
A lot of KB pistons have a hollow dome. Measure the thickness before you do any cutting.
This is Australia, they have 95-98 RON octane available, the bike is carbureted, and the dome is .341" in the center, no under dome milling. It would take .062" cut to get to 3cc. Not a recommendation just the stats.
QuoteAny tips / tricks on slipping the cylinders down over the pistons during assembly? What's the best method? Ring compressor tool?
These adjustable ring compressors work the best for me. They are made for inserting pistons from the top, but by cutting about 3/8" of material from the gap to make it possible to remove them past the con rod and studs, they work great on a Harley. I set the diameter by installing it upside down on the piston and rings assembly and making sure it slides up the skirt with just a little bit of drag. Then slide it off the piston, flip the tool over and slide back on. Lock the flywheel from turning and slide the cylinder on. It works well with even the skinniest rings out there.
IMG_0916.jpg
Installing cylinder
IMG_0918.jpg
:up: :up:
Nice tool for sure, good idea
Quote from: HD Street Performance on January 08, 2022, 07:03:37 AMThis is Australia, they have 95-98 RON octane available, the bike is carbureted, and the dome is .341" in the center, no under dome milling. It would take .062" cut to get to 3cc. Not a recommendation just the stats.
Looks like with the shape of the dome and the valve reliefs, it may be tricky to mill the domes down?
Even if I do mill them a small amount -- I'm probably still going to need to use a .040" HG.
piston top.jpg
Cut to the dimension I provided. Flat top cut.
If you work with a shop like Hood Motor Service, I provided information, this is something Mark will be very comfortable with. If there are no high performance shops near by I would ship then. I cut them on a back plate on the lathe with a draw bar or set up a piston vise and use the mill. Key is holding them right so they are not damaged. Not suggesting sending them back here, freight is too costly
Adam, have you determined that you in fact have too much compression for the CR575 cams that you are using? Did you consider calling (or emailing) Wes at Cycle Rama with your specs for advice yet? If you email him first with your present specs he will have time to consider any advice he may have.
I'd just suck it up and buy the S&S 570's that you already know you want
Quote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 07:32:01 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:30:22 PMWhat are the piston CC's?
Domes are 6.7cc KB + 40 pistons
I've removed .030" off those piston domes, and wound up with 5.2 cc domes.
John
Quote from: kd on January 09, 2022, 07:17:39 AMAdam, have you determined that you in fact have too much compression for the CR575 cams that you are using? Did you consider calling (or emailing) Wes at Cycle Rama with your specs for advice yet? If you email him first with your present specs he will have time to consider any advice he may have.
This is the reply I got from Wes.
Cycle-Rama Wes Brown
Sun, Jan 9, 6:11 AM (1 day ago)
to me
I dont like running them over 10.0
I have a lot of customers that do run them at 10.5
Tune must be spot on
You can get a set of. 051 head gaskets cometic makes them.
I have used them before with no problems
Quote from: jsachs1 on January 09, 2022, 01:54:39 PMQuote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 07:32:01 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:30:22 PMWhat are the piston CC's?
Domes are 6.7cc KB + 40 pistons
I've removed .030" off those piston domes, and wound up with 5.2 cc domes.
John
Thanks John, I'm looking at removing .055" as per Don's recommendation... Would you agree that that is about the right amount to mill to end up with 3cc domes?
Thanks.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on January 09, 2022, 06:34:59 AMCut to the dimension I provided. Flat top cut.
If you work with a shop like Hood Motor Service, I provided information, this is something Mark will be very comfortable with. If there are no high performance shops near by I would ship then. I cut them on a back plate on the lathe with a draw bar or set up a piston vise and use the mill. Key is holding them right so they are not damaged. Not suggesting sending them back here, freight is too costly
Thanks, will go and see a few machine shops today and see if it can be done.
I will also contact Hoods Motor Service.
:up: Glad to hear you seem to have a concrete plan based on facts now Adam. Looking forward to seeing success.
Quote from: Adam76 on January 09, 2022, 03:13:03 PMQuote from: jsachs1 on January 09, 2022, 01:54:39 PMQuote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 07:32:01 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on January 07, 2022, 07:30:22 PMWhat are the piston CC's?
Domes are 6.7cc KB + 40 pistons
I've removed .030" off those piston domes, and wound up with 5.2 cc domes.
John
Thanks John, I'm looking at removing .055" as per Don's recommendation... Would you agree that that is about the right amount to mill to end up with 3cc domes?
Thanks.
John will likely answer but doing the math, I see 1.5 cc per the .030" removed 5.2 cc domes John states he got. That's .5 cc per each .010" so .055 will be 3 cc in my book. If you have 6.7 cc domes you'll end up at 3.7 cc.
Now, looking at the pic of your pistons, as the cut gets deeper you will be removing more material as the depth milled takes you down deeper into the valve reliefs. That, and the ballpark numbers being used, "may" bring you closer to having 3 cc equivalent remaining. At any rate, it should be real close to your goal if you are after that 10:1 .
Yep, and you can use an 0.030" head gasket of the pistons are down 0.005" as speculated.
0001.jpg
Nice. Ohio, I like that calculator. It has cylinder growth potential for heat in the tables. Is that something you put together?
It's partially mine. Someone else created the bare bones calculations. I added a few things, and spruced it up a bit.
Does it scavenge specs from a cam index for duration and overlap etc also (like the BigBoyz calculator) or does it just use the intake close spec?
It uses intake closing.
I doubt that BB uses all of the specs. It gives the same answer if you pick a cam, or just type in a closing value.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 09, 2022, 05:40:48 PMIt's partially mine. Someone else created the bare bones calculations. I added a few things, and spruced it up a bit.
Thanks Ohio. Appreciate the calculations -- looks like it will bring me to a much safer compression. :scoot:
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 09, 2022, 06:08:45 PMIt uses intake closing.
I doubt that BB uses all of the specs. It gives the same answer if you pick a cam, or just type in a closing value.
I was wondering if the other specs were part of the calc for the corrected compression at say 2000 rpm. I guess it's not necessary and probably best if everyone is on the same page.
Quote from: kd on January 09, 2022, 06:35:32 PMI was wondering if the other specs were part of the for the corrected calc at 2000. I guess it's not necessary and probably best if everyone is on the same page.
What's at 2,000? Feet?
Fixed it (I think) .... always read the post before you push send. It amazes me how much a sentence can change if it gets away on you.
Well, when you get to any readings with the motor running, that's dynamic compression, and not cold cranking compression. It would take a lot of data to calculate dynamic compression. I'm not sure that I've ever seen that calculated.
That was kind of where I was going. I have seen where 2000 rpm has been used as where engine pulse is low and the CCR or DCR will react to valve closing, overlap etc. as rpm increases. There are so many other influences it would be hard to track as a calculation. I hadn't noticed the cylinder growth in that calculator you used before. I thought you shared it here once and I went to look in my calculator file for it. I seem to remember you working up the cam list. It says file not found now so I can't be sure. At any rate, because that calculator went the extra mile with cylinder expansion consideration, and the cam was entered with only the intake closing, I was curious.
Adam, sorry for the hijack. :teeth:
The calculator works on some assumptions the most likely to be wrong is intake close. How many degrees is it from seat to .053" lift? A group of mathematic calculations by formulas is taken as gospel. How does a 9.3:1 CVO110 crank 225 with a 30° intake close? They do and that is proper according to the SM. They left the factory that way. Calculates out at 9.3 static 8.2 compression, corrected for intake close, and 183ccp. How is the actual 220+? We have elevated calculated CCP based on these spreadsheets as the defacto standard. Worse than that there are some that take the defacto rules as hard fast lines in the sand even in the planning stages. If this was my bike I would put a .040 head gasket on it and move on. Even then there is overhead considering the available octane.
We all can agree that the calculation of corrected compression is based on the closing value listed for the cam. We can also agree that is not the actual closing as mention, some cams are actually closing at the value and then how ever many degrees the lift listed works out to be. Lifts being @0.053", 0.020". or 0.050" lift. The corrected compression calculation is an estimate.
The one fact that must be looked at is the statement made by the professional person that designed the cams, Wes Brown. He states that he wants to see the cams at 10:1 static compression.
The one thing we can be sure of is calculating static compression. As long as the data presented is real, It's merely the swept volume from BDC to TDC. The ratio between them.
With what we've been told the compression should come out at 10.1:1, using an 0.030" HG. Using an 0.040" HG the compression calculates as 9.9:1. In either case he should be fine. A consideration is that the larger the squish, the likelihood of detonation increases.
What would have been the best way to get there would have been flat top pistons, 0.030" HG, and set the heads at 80cc. He would have 9.9:1, right where Wes wants them.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 10, 2022, 02:28:03 PMThe one fact that must be looked at is the statement made by the professional person that designed the cams, Wes Brown. He states that he wants to see the cams at 10:1 static compression.
With what we've been told the compression should come out at 10.1:1, using an 0.030" HG. Using an 0.040" HG the compression calculates as 9.9:1. In either case he should be fine. A consideration is that the larger the squish, the likelihood of detonation increases.
What would have been the best way to get there would have been flat top pistons, 0.030" HG, and set the heads at 80cc. He would have 9.9:1, right where Wes wants them.
Thanks Ohio, yes Wes did state he likes them at 10.1 static compression.... Flat top pistons would have been a good way to.... unfortunately I started out with heads that were already 83cc.
And I didn't choose the pistons for the build, they were chosen by the engine builder.
Ohio, that's a great sensible train of thought. You are right that the ratio of concern when having a conversation about compression for the cams is Static compression. The guy that designed the cams says he prefers the 10:1 ratio then that's gospel. The rest is just noise. KISS as they say. It appears Adam will be one point either side of the optimum and you can't expect much better. Especially when trying to use the components in hand instead of starting from scratch. I personally think it is working out well and would be tempted to use the .030 gasket to mitigate any risk of detonation. But that's me and it doesn't matter.
It is impossible to back into hitting an exact compression number without machine work, get real. KB offers a 1cc piston that would have been equally deficient from achieving the exact designated static number. Now you can mill heads or mill pistons choose your poison. This is a custom motor build with some close tolerances being asked for and up to this point the deck height hasn't even been considered. Adam you are the builder, the man in charge. In all these pages of internet traffic there is some very good advice and solutions that have been presented. It is your turn to make it happen.
Quote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 06:49:47 PMI have the bottom end back in the frame all bolted up and ready for the top end. Just waiting on some .040" head gaskets (Thanks Don) because with the .030" and the piston's dome volume of 6.7 has pushed my actual corrected compression to 9.8 and my ccp to 213.
With the .040" HG I'm at 9.64 corrected and 208 ccp -- still not sure that's going to be ok especially with the bike being carbed not EFI. It will be getting dyno tuned though and it has DTT ignition module.
Any tips / tricks on slipping the cylinders down over the pistons during assembly? What's the best method? Ring compressor tool?
Thanks
engine.jpg
ring comp.jpg
This works well:
Ring Compressor (https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-21700-Wrinkle-Band-Compressor/dp/B0009OR93I/ref=asc_df_B0009OR93I/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312684231807&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10780203256297921259&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002081&hvtargid=pla-568793595106&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=60983009663&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312684231807&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10780203256297921259&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002081&hvtargid=pla-568793595106)
Another method is to insert the pistons into the cyls on the bench,then slide the whole assembly onto the case. Pick your poison. :up:
Quote from: koko3052 on January 17, 2022, 09:56:42 AMAnother method is to insert the pistons into the cyls on the bench,then slide the whole assembly onto the case. Pick your poison. :up:
If they weren't KB pistons with Spiral locks for the wrist pin, I'd be doing that. I find them tricky to work with.
This is just not my day...
I got the front cylinder over the piston quite easily (this is not my first top end rebuild) and then went to do the rear cyl and it just didn't want to go on and seemed offset.
Then I looked at the piston and it was not square in the case bore - not even close? The crank is good and only has 2 thou.
Do I have the pistons back to front??? The instructions that came with the KBs are not at all helpful.
Both pistons have the --> with the word FWD on them, so I assumed facing the front of the bike. But the thrust face is toward the rear, right?
This bike is cursed.
20220126_115253.jpg
Simple stuff first. Is there cutouts on the skirt for where the pistons meet? The cutouts go to each other at the center of the cases (intake side). The valve cutouts are usually different with the large radius to intake. (That does look like an intake valve pocket,) Is the piston over to the left side on the pin? Were the pins (or at least the rear pin) a tight fit?
Quote from: kd on January 25, 2022, 08:22:28 PMSimple stuff first. Is there cutouts on the skirt for where the pistons meet? The cutouts go to each other at the center of the cases. The valve cutouts are usually different with the large radius to intake.
Thanks kd, so what youre saying is the the arrows on the tops of the pistons should face backwards? Or face toward each other?
They look symmetrical to me.
Thanks
Adam, I added to that post as you were typing. I am not referring to the arrows. I mean the physical characteristics of the pistons. I read my initial post and expanded on it in an edit.
Take a photo of the entire top of the piston.
Quote from: kd on January 25, 2022, 08:22:28 PMIs the piston over to the left side on the pin? Were the pins (or at least the rear pin) a tight fit?
The photo I took the piston was sitting in the middle / centre of the wrist pin. I can move it the left and right, but even all the way right it doesn't line up with the bore.
The skirts on each side of the piston seem identical - and the intake and exhaust valve reliefs also look identical...
Thanks
20220126_121513 (1).jpg
Pistons are in the wrong hole. There is a front and rear. And I think KB forged pistons have an offset pin if I remember correctly. Read the instructions that came with the pistons closely.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 25, 2022, 08:54:36 PMPistons are in the wrong hole. There is a front and rear. And I think KB forged pistons have an offset pin if I remember correctly. Read the instructions that came with the pistons closely.
Thanks, will do.
Quote from: Adam76 on January 25, 2022, 08:57:35 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on January 25, 2022, 08:54:36 PMPistons are in the wrong hole. There is a front and rear. And I think KB forged pistons have an offset pin if I remember correctly. Read the instructions that came with the pistons closely.
Thanks, will do.
Now I have to get those spiral locks out.... any tips/tricks?
Before you take them apart, read the sheet with the pistons. The intake side has a larger relief in the top of the piston. So both large reliefs face each other in the motor. But both arrows still point forward.
THANKS, turned the rear piston around and the arrow is facing the rear of the bike, but it looks like it lines up MUCH better. :up:
The instructions say that the "thrust face" of the piston should point toward the rear of the bike.
The front cylinder went on the piston with no trouble... Could it also be wrong, considering the arrow is also facing toward the front of the bike?
Thanks
Arrows go forward on both pistons. I "think" you have the front in the rear, and the rear in the front.
Hard to tell without seeing both piston tops.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 25, 2022, 09:09:26 PMArrows go forward on both pistons. I "think" you have the front in the rear, and the rear in the front.
Hard to tell without seeing both piston tops.
Yes instructions say that both arrows point toward the front of the bike... That's why I'm confused.
They also say either piston can be installed front or rear??
Thanks
Take two good clear photos of the tops of the pistons and post them.
See the two yellow lines? They're the same length. One valve relief is bigger then the other. That's the intake and it must be toward the carburetor side of the cylinder. And the arrow must be forward.
kb.jpg
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 25, 2022, 09:09:26 PMArrows go forward on both pistons. I "think" you have the front in the rear, and the rear in the front.
I've swapped them around and will try again later to install cylinders.
Thanks heaps. :up:
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 25, 2022, 09:09:26 PMArrows go forward on both pistons. I "think" you have the front in the rear, and the rear in the front.
I swapped the pistons over, same problem. The rear piston is being held off centre. There is a huge gap when the cyl is pushed down on the piston.
Could it be the rear Con Rod?piston.jpeg
post a pic of both piston tops (in the same pic)
Quote from: FSG on January 26, 2022, 01:52:07 AMpost a pic of both piston tops (in the same pic)
Having computer issues, will try again.
Also, what part number are the pistons?
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 26, 2022, 01:58:34 AMAlso, what part number are the pistons?
I've pulled the rear cylinder because it would not sit right. I swapped the pistons over BUT the rear piston is still sitting too far to the left and therefore puts everything out. No way it's going to work
They are KB Forged pistons KB905C + 40"
I'm about ready to pour gas on this bike and light it up :banghead:
Here is the rear with the cyl in place (very tight as it's crooked).
Can't upload picture. Nothing is working for me today.
did someone say offset
(https://i.imgur.com/saaM2XE.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8XHgLBb.png)
Quote from: Adam76 on January 26, 2022, 02:11:09 AMHere is the rear with the cyl in place (very tight as it's crooked).
Can't upload picture. Nothing is working for me today.
Make sure the pic isn't too big for the web site. Many sites have limits.
Then get a bigger hammer.... :)
Quote from: FSG on January 26, 2022, 02:39:19 AMdid someone say offset
Thanks FSG, I saw that info as well. What are the arrows on the tops of the pistons referring to - front of bike or thrust face (rear) ??
It doesn't matter which way I install the piston it's still sitting way to far to the left to ever work.... Could it be a bent Conrod?
The front went in no trouble...
Cheers for your help
Either way I install it, the piston itself is not able to be centred in the bore (let alone the cylinder).
The front one was perfect, from the second picture, I'm looking at a bent / offset Conrod??
20220126_211110.jpg
20220126_210217.jpg
Arrows facing the front of the bike, large valve pockets oriented to the intake valves. The center of the rod should align with the case seam.
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 26, 2022, 05:23:38 AMArrows facing the front of the bike, large valve pockets oriented to the intake valves.
Thanks rigidthumper, but thats how I had it set up from the beginning, and the rear cylinder would not go over the piston because the piston sits off centre no matter which way the arrow points.... What do you think is the issue here? I'm stumped and I don't want to think it's a problem with the crankshaft / flywheels / Conrods.
Adam, that last picture says it all if the angle you took it is true.
How much piston free side to side movement is there in this problem cylinder?
Quote from: kd on January 26, 2022, 05:53:28 AMAdam, that last picture says it all if the angle you took it is true.
Also, is that a hole in the case at the seam in the first picture?
Edit: and the second picture?
Connecting rods can be straightened in the case. They have brute strength up/down, but much less sideways.
Got anything like a piece of round bar real close to the pin diameter?
Throw it through the SE of the rod and see if it hits the deck square.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 26, 2022, 06:24:40 AMQuote from: kd on January 26, 2022, 05:53:28 AMAdam, that last picture says it all if the angle you took it is true.
Also, is that a hole in the case at the seam in the first picture?
Edit: and the second picture?
Stock hole in that case seam, some of the engines have that, it doesn't go all the way through.
Looks like a bent rod, as said above it can be fixed, there is a procedure in the SM that covers that, at least in the older manuals. You can tell for sure with a test pin through the small end.
We've done that over the years especially on older bikes.
Quote from: kd on January 26, 2022, 05:53:28 AMAdam, that last picture says it all if the angle you took it is true.
:agree:
pix can bee deceptive but it's looking like a bent rod to me
put something in the rod to see if it's square to the case,
(https://i.imgur.com/vVKKNQp.jpg)
What could have caused this, was this crank from a motor that had some major failure?
Quote from: FSG on January 26, 2022, 06:58:02 AMQuote from: kd on January 26, 2022, 05:53:28 AMAdam, that last picture says it all if the angle you took it is true.
:agree:
pix can bee deceptive but it's looking like a bent rod to me
put something in the rod to see if it's square to the case,
Yep, that's the money shot. You can see near the base of the rod a curve towards the sprocket shaft side of the motor.
These guys got it, sure looks like the rear rod is bent. Below is how you check how bad it is. And also when straightening it, how far off, and how much more bend is needed.
This is an Evo motor, but it's checked the same way.
(https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/s/files/1/0097/0506/2447/products/Fast-Eddy-Co-Connecting-Rod-Alignment-Tool-RSCT1_675x.jpg?v=1622431686&em-origin=cdn.shopify.com&em-format=avif)
I am thinking it would take a broken piston (maybe from something foreign going through the intake?) to cause that during running. Maybe stretching it, even a right side collision. There would probably some other collateral damage marks if those were the case. It's more likely that it was mishandled after disassembly from the donor engine. Dropped on it's side or damaged in shipping is the most likely culprit.
Curious how that crank got into that case and installed in your chassis without the rods being checked for straightness. Seriously. The tool to check this is probably less than $50USD. I understand you are not a professional shop and and probably didnt install the crank yourself. Bottom line, the rods have to be checked and most likely twisted a bit. This is pretty common for harley engine builders but it will require tools that are only good for this operation and will probably require some training by a pro. Best of luck.
As a quick check, use two piston pins to mimic the tool shown above , and check pin to block alignment.
YEP, it's a bent rod. Just my luck :emoGroan:
I can source another crank and swap it all out again....
If it were my bike, this is where I buy a 4.375" stroke crank, and a set of 103" pistons.
Go big, or go home.
I agree Ohio.
If I can't get hold of a decent crank for a decent price, I'll go stroker.
I'd straighten the rod, but I'm also a cheap SOB.
Just straighten it and move on. Begs the questions, have the rod bearings been checked for no tight spots, has the crank runout been checked. Whatever it took to bend that rod could have done collateral damage.
That's my reasoning for a new crank. Unless the crank is gone over 100%, it's still an unknown.
Quote from: Adam76 on January 27, 2022, 02:58:34 AMI agree Ohio.
If I can't get hold of a decent crank for a decent price, I'll go stroker.
Keep in mind, it must be a stroker crank for your the earlier Twin Cam motor. The late model 103" crank is for a six speed drive line.
Pulling the bottom end again, take 2...
My mechanic felt sorry for me, he had an early TC 88B crank that he was planning to sell, but he's giving it to me no charge. He has thoroughly checked it. Rod are straight and runout is .0015
Praying it all goes together well this time.
20220128_130207.jpg
If you go to S&s's website they have instructions on how to make a rod straightening tool. Cheap & easy. :up:
Quote from: wfolarry on January 28, 2022, 11:12:37 AMCheap & easy
yes it is
(https://i.imgur.com/xhk0tIT.png)
Go into the "Home Made Tools" section on the forum, and you'll see the rod straighteners.
John
John your post of the tool has been there a looong time
and I have to admit that I've not seen it before or perhaps my memory is going :nix:
what was the edit you did May of '21 ?
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,16681.0.html
Quote from: wfolarry on January 28, 2022, 11:12:37 AMIf you go to S&s's website they have instructions on how to make a rod straightening tool. Cheap & easy. :up:
Thanks Larry and FSG.
I'm tempted to make the tool and just try and straighten the rod.
Here is another pic, is it too far gone to try and straighten it up?
I have another good and straight crankshaft lined up if this one can't be straightened.
Thanks
20220130_080746.jpg I
QuoteI'm tempted to make the tool and just try and straighten the rod.
Here is another pic, is it too far gone to try and straighten it up?
well you've got nothing to lose ...... I'd straighten it
before you start I'd lightly mark/scribe a centerline on the rod end both fore and aft so as you go you have a good visual indicator between taking wrist pin measurements
You also have a barrel and piston to use as a go / no go check. If you don't want to put the ring set through a few check fitting exercises, take them off and test fit the piston with some masking tape on it. Fit the piston to the barrel on the bench first so you know it's snug.
You really need the connecting rod pin tool to know if it's straight again. As I posted the image a few posts back. And then you also need to make sure that rod isn't twisted, one of the two tools that John Sachs posted.
John Sachs Connecting Rod Tools (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,16681.msg168216.html#msg168216)
Thanks guys, but I'm not going to risk it. I have a good crank lined up to go in and the bottom end is already out of the frame.
Cheers
Quote from: FSG on January 28, 2022, 03:05:28 PMJohn your post of the tool has been there a looong time
and I have to admit that I've not seen it before or perhaps my memory is going :nix:
what was the edit you did May of '21 ?
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,16681.0.html
Re edit:
Black Hills Ken sent me a pic of the rod straightener (straight tool) that he uses, to check the straightness, after tweeking. Wrist pin, with a straight mandrel pressed into it.
cheers :up:
Forgot to post - found where some of the metal originally came from... seems like a piston oil jet was sheared off.
20220202_154711.jpg
20220202_154719.jpg
First time I've seen that!
Quote from: Adam76 on February 01, 2022, 11:49:54 PMForgot to post - found where some of the metal originally came from... seems like a piston oil jet was sheared off.
20220202_154711.jpg
20220202_154719.jpg
Wouldn't there have to be a mark on the piston skirt?
Quote from: Adam76 on February 01, 2022, 11:49:54 PMForgot to post - found where some of the metal originally came from... seems like a piston oil jet was sheared off.
20220202_154711.jpg
20220202_154719.jpg
Can't quite make out your notes :teeth:
Back in business. New crankshaft in, cases back together and top end installed.
20220207_105902.jpg
Congratulations!
Wishing you smooth sailing for the remainder of the project.
Jason
Quote from: Adam76 on February 06, 2022, 07:00:13 PMBack in business. New crankshaft in, cases back together and top end installed.
20220207_105902.jpg
Great time to pressure test the interconnect seal
Here is another good idea. Lap the plunger and seat in the cam plate and then adjust its pop off pressure. You have come pretty far with this project, but still many little details that should be checked. The risk of not doing this is staying awake at night thinking that the engine is doing bad things because you didnt check this.
Enjoy.
Quote from: turboprop on February 07, 2022, 10:49:01 AMHere is another good idea. Lap the plunger and seat in the cam plate and then adjust its pop off pressure. You have come pretty far with this project, but still many little details that should be checked. The risk of not doing this is staying awake at night thinking that the engine is doing bad things because you didnt check this.
Enjoy.
Thanks 👍 this was done with the last time I put the cam chest back together.
Cheers
and remember ....
Quote from: FSG on August 18, 2017, 03:43:59 PMWARNING: Do not mix up the Cam Cover Cap Screws with the Camplate Cap Screws, they are longer and you run the risk of putting a dimple in the lifter bore and that would surely ruin your day.
(http://i.imgur.com/7rmBa8f.png)
and .......
Quote from: FSG on March 24, 2019, 11:22:29 AMQuote from: FSG on October 22, 2013, 07:09:18 PM:up: and the holes in the case for those bolts need cleaning too, I use brake clean with the long thin straw on it to get to the base of the hole, I then blow them out with a football needle fitted to an air nozzle.
(http://i.imgur.com/zP2Ex7K.jpg)
Quote from: ziggy24 on January 14, 2022, 03:15:12 AMQuote from: Adam76 on January 07, 2022, 06:49:47 PMI have the bottom end back in the frame all bolted up and ready for the top end. Just waiting on some .040" head gaskets (Thanks Don) because with the .030" and the piston's dome volume of 6.7 has pushed my actual corrected compression to 9.8 and my ccp to 213.
With the .040" HG I'm at 9.64 corrected and 208 ccp -- still not sure that's going to be ok especially with the bike being carbed not EFI. It will be getting dyno tuned though and it has DTT ignition module.
Any tips / tricks on slipping the cylinders down over the pistons during assembly? What's the best method? Ring compressor tool?
Thanks
engine.jpg
ring comp.jpg
This works well:
Ring Compressor (https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-21700-Wrinkle-Band-Compressor/dp/B0009OR93I/ref=asc_df_B0009OR93I/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312684231807&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10780203256297921259&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002081&hvtargid=pla-568793595106&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=60983009663&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312684231807&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10780203256297921259&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9002081&hvtargid=pla-568793595106)
Snap On sell in AU
Hi guys,
Can anyone confirm that I have the top cylinder dowel o-rings in the right place?
Left is front and right is rear cyl.
FSM isn't too clear on this one...
Thanks
20220219_101407.jpg
No orings there. Cometic head gaskets, MLS, fit tight on the dowels. The older composite gaskets used the orings many years ago. There are orings that go on the bottom in the receiver grooves of the dowels. Look at the online parts book on Ronnies Microfiche for details.
O-rings go here in the case. First a dowel is inserted, then the o-ring, then the cylinder.
Image 16.jpg
Been over 22 years now that Harley stopped using o-rings on top of the cylinder on 95" upgrades and a couple of years later even on the stock 88" bikes.
Cometic metal head gaskets have never used them as far as I am aware.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 18, 2022, 07:08:06 PMNo orings there. Cometic head gaskets, MLS, fit tight on the dowels. The older composite gaskets used the orings many years ago. There are orings that go on the bottom in the receiver grooves of the dowels. Look at the online parts book on Ronnies Microfiche for details.
Roger that.
Cheers
Quote from: Scotty on February 18, 2022, 11:18:45 PMBeen over 22 years now that Harley stopped using o-rings on top of the cylinder on 95" upgrades and a couple of years later even on the stock 88" bikes.
Cometic metal head gaskets have never used them as far as I am aware.
Thanks :up: :up:
Its been a while since an update , hope things are going well
Dave
Yes, how about an update. Love to see a happy ending. Is she up and skooting like you always dreamed? How's the power? Hope all is great as I've intently watched your build and did my own softail in the process with the information contained within this thread. Lots of good information. :chop:
G'day Adam, yes, how has your project developed and hopefully you weren't affected by the desastrous flooding situation. Good luck!
Armin.
Quote from: Adam76 on February 05, 2022, 01:20:51 AMHey, I'm picking up a 2021 Heritage with the 107 motor and doing a cam change.
I was going with the S&S 475 cam and a Pro Pipe, but I've read a lot of people say that this cam doesn't really kick in until 3000rpm and then absolutely takes off... That's not really my riding style - I like a wide TQ / power band from 2200 - 5000.
With the pro pipe, will I get more low end TQ back with the 475 cam? Or should I be looking at a different cam??
Thanks.
Adam is out riding. :teeth:
Thanks guys, I was about to post an update.
No, I'm not out riding Ohio although I'm pretty close.
I finished buttoning everything up yesterday and then went to hit the starter button to see if it all came together well. Unfortunately I had some starter issues - kinda like the whirring sound you get when you have a bad starter clutch. But I had just installed a new starter clutch so I knew it wasn't that.... I pulled the primary cover off and reset the starter jackshaft, put it back together and BAM it fired up nicely. :SM:
Now I just have to work on my CV carb tuning skills to get the bike on the road for a break in ride.
Thanks everyone.
Hey guys,
I managed to get the bike to run for less than a minute on full choke, with a slight amount of running rough and a little spitting and miss firing....
A soon as I ease off the choke a bit it just completely dies -- even holding the throttle open 50%
I also noticed that when the bike is not running, and a twist the throttle, no fuel is squirted onto the needle?
I had no carb issues before I rebuilt the motor for the second time, and I've made sure I've got no vacuum leaks with a very good seal onto the manifold...
Any ideas what could be wrong this time around? Carbs aren't my strong suit.
Cheers
20220316_095148.jpg
Did you get the spring and diaphragm correctly installed in the accelerator pump?
Quote from: Hossamania on March 15, 2022, 07:22:13 PMDid you get the spring and diaphragm correctly installed in the accelerator pump?
Thanks Hoss, that's what I was thinking.
But the weird thing is it was all working fine when I pulled it off what maybe 2 months ago??
Can it be checked without removing the carb altogether?
I guess I'll have to pull it off and strip it down again. Damn, not a single thing has gone smoothly with this build. :banghead:
Thanks for the reply
No, carb needs to come off to pull the diaphragm cover. Spray some carb cleaner thru the passage to make sure it is clear once disassembled.
Before you pull it, get it running one more time and twist the throttle a little to make sure it's not squirting.
One more thing before you do anyrhing, double check your metering rod, make sure it is pushing down properly on the pump.
Thanks, will do.
It's had a full rebuild kit through it only a few months ago, so hopefully something simple.
Cheers
I've taken the carb apart again and cleaned everything out.
Put in back on and at least it runs now. Still needs a fair bit of tuning, so I'll go for a short ride tomorrow and post the results.
Did you observe the carb while running before the ride? Pump is squirting, slide is rising with throttle? It shouldn't really be running too rough, especially at idle, even if the tune is off. Check for vacuum leaks. Extended choke use may be necessary until warm, mine likes choke even in very warm weather for a while, obviously longer when it is cool or cold.
Get the carb fixed before a shakedown run. Look at the plugs to get an idea what is happening
Quote from: Hossamania on March 16, 2022, 05:05:52 AMDid you observe the carb while running before the ride? Pump is squirting, slide is rising with throttle? It shouldn't really be running too rough, especially at idle, even if the tune is off. Check for vacuum leaks. Extended choke use may be necessary until warm, mine likes choke even in very warm weather for a while, obviously longer when it is cool or cold.
Thanks Hoss, yes I have the pump squirting again now -- but the slide does not rise with opening of the throttle??
What would cause the slide not to rise?
I've checked for vacuum leaks, pretty sure there's none.
Thanks.
The diaphragm got pinched when the top cap was put on, or there is a pinhole in it. More than likely it is pinched.
Never done it myself...... :embarrassed:
Wait, yes I have, more than once. Pretty common.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 16, 2022, 03:54:40 PMThe diaphragm got pinched when the top cap was put on, or there is a pinhole in it. More than likely it is pinched.
Never done it myself...... :embarrassed:
Wait, yes I have, more than once. Pretty common.
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Slide will only rise with motor running though don't forget
Quote from: Scotty on March 16, 2022, 04:21:22 PMQuote from: Hossamania on March 16, 2022, 03:54:40 PMThe diaphragm got pinched when the top cap was put on, or there is a pinhole in it. More than likely it is pinched.
Never done it myself...... :embarrassed:
Wait, yes I have, more than once. Pretty common.
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Slide will only rise with motor running though don't forget
Yes, otherwise there's no vacuum
OK, so I got the bike running and set the idle speed.
CV velocity needle
46 pilot
195 main
2.5 turns out
Carb seems to be working OK, but I'm getting a bit of coughing and spluttering / back firing when idling and running gently through the gears.
Does that mean I need a larger pilot jet? Maybe a 48 ?
I'm hoping it's an easy fix so I can actually put some miles on this build. :scoot:
Thanks
Is it spitting back out through the carb or the exhaust?
If through the carb a 46 and a 195 it should be close and sounds like it is leaking through the manifold to head seals and running lean. Putting a 48 in will just mask the problem and not fix the issue.
OK, thanks. I cannot tell if it's backfiring through the carb or the exhaust. I think it's actually the exhaust....
I'll check for manifold to head leaks again, although I'm pretty sure I've got the flange bolts are as tight as they can go without stripping them :scratch:
Backfiring through the exhaust usually indicates a rich condition as raw fuel ignites in the exhaust.
Going back to the carb did you put the manifold and carb on together with the air filter bracket ?
See if you fit the manifold and it's not straight or even slightly crooked and then you put a carb in and start doing up bolts to the head etc you can push the manifold and roll the seals.
Needs to be put in as a unit or at the very least HD used to sell a plastic bracket that you could use for carbs and efi to line up the carb and manifold without the air cleaner getting in the way.
Quote from: Scotty on March 16, 2022, 11:54:07 PMBackfiring through the exhaust usually indicates a rich condition as raw fuel ignites in the exhaust.
Going back to the carb did you put the manifold and carb on together with the air filter bracket ?
See if you fit the manifold and it's not straight or even slightly crooked and then you put a carb in and start doing up bolts to the head etc you can push the manifold and roll the seals.
Needs to be put in as a unit or at the very least HD used to sell a plastic bracket that you could use for carbs and efi to line up the carb and manifold without the air cleaner getting in the way.
OK, I see.
No, I installed and tightened up the manifold with new seals before installing the tank, carb, air cleaner etc because it was easier access to the flange mounting bolts....
So you think I should disassemble everything and put the manifold on with the carb and air cleaner in place?
That's going to be tricky to get to the flange bolts
Cheers
Yes I have a 6" ball end allan that slips in nicely to do the top ones and the bottom obviously done from the other side.
It's tricky but it's doable and keeps everything lined up.
Put new seals and fit manifold but do no tighten down.
Fit carb with air cleaner bracket and attach breather bolts but do up only finger tight whilst checking manifold is not binding anywhere.
Once they are finger tight then do up manifold bolts and then finish breather bolts and then put tank and then put filter and cover on.
That works 99% of the time unless heads have been milled a lot and then you may need to do some work to the manifold. But you should see if that is required when fitting without flanges and seals as it should not bind up on the ports when in position.
Did you get the slide working properly? If that diaphragm got pinched, that will cause your poor running condition.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 17, 2022, 04:32:51 AMDid you get the slide working properly? If that diaphragm got pinched, that will cause your poor running condition.
Yes, the slide is working properly.
It has to be a manifold leak because nothing has been changed on the carb since it was taken off the bike the last time and it was running perfectly fine then?
Thanks.
Is the float height set correctly and is there fuel in the bowl? Can you see the plunger rod going into the rubber boot above the accelerator pump? Are you certain the the needle jet is installed correctly? Those are some of the things I'd be checking. Good luck and let us know.
Quote from: Scotty on March 17, 2022, 01:00:32 AMYes I have a 6" ball end allan that slips in nicely to do the top ones and the bottom obviously done from the other side.
It's tricky but it's doable and keeps everything lined up.
Put new seals and fit manifold but do no tighten down.
Fit carb with air cleaner bracket and attach breather bolts but do up only finger tight whilst checking manifold is not binding anywhere.
Once they are finger tight then do up manifold bolts and then finish breather bolts and then put tank and then put filter and cover on.
That works 99% of the time unless heads have been milled a lot and then you may need to do some work to the manifold. But you should see if that is required when fitting without flanges and seals as it should not bind up on the ports when in position.
:agree:
OP.... This is a video I found before mounting my intake manifold awhile back.... at about 2:25.. he talks about what Scotty is telling you to do above...
I have followed this procedure a couple times and never had leaks...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEVE9n_3BzA
I used tool 40054-01 in the day.
Be sure to use some spray silicon on your manifold seals so that they seat properly.
Quote from: billbuilds on March 17, 2022, 10:37:46 AMBe sure to use some spray silicon on your manifold seals so that they seat properly.
Thanks Bill, what is spray silicone?
Will a bit of red rubber grease do the same thing?
Quote from: Adam76 on March 17, 2022, 05:22:46 PMQuote from: billbuilds on March 17, 2022, 10:37:46 AMBe sure to use some spray silicon on your manifold seals so that they seat properly.
Thanks Bill, what is spray silicone?
Will a bit of red rubber grease do the same thing?
You can get it at Bunnings
WD40 Silicon Spray (https://www.bunnings.com.au/wd-40-specialist-high-performance-silicone-lubricant-300g_p6100407)
Quote from: Scotty on March 17, 2022, 05:50:31 PMYou can get it at Bunnings
WD40 Silicon Spray (https://www.bunnings.com.au/wd-40-specialist-high-performance-silicone-lubricant-300g_p6100407)
:agree: good stuff for lots of things :SM:
Quote from: Adam76 on March 17, 2022, 05:22:46 PMQuote from: billbuilds on March 17, 2022, 10:37:46 AMBe sure to use some spray silicon on your manifold seals so that they seat properly.
Thanks Bill, what is spray silicone?
Will a bit of red rubber grease do the same thing?
No, I would not advise it. I'd go with what Scotty suggested. Other brands out there too but WD''s pretty common.
Quote from: FSG on March 17, 2022, 06:05:14 PMQuote from: Scotty on March 17, 2022, 05:50:31 PMYou can get it at Bunnings
WD40 Silicon Spray (https://www.bunnings.com.au/wd-40-specialist-high-performance-silicone-lubricant-300g_p6100407)
:agree: good stuff for lots of things :SM:
Ah, thanks FSG. I actually have a can of that stuff for lubricating the rollers on the sliding doors of my house. :up:
Vaseline works
Quote from: Scotty on March 16, 2022, 10:30:19 PMIs it spitting back out through the carb or the exhaust?
If through the carb a 46 and a 195 it should be close and sounds like it is leaking through the manifold to head seals and running lean. Putting a 48 in will just mask the problem and not fix the issue.
Thanks Scotty, I pulled everything off and put new seals in the intake manifold, and tightened it up the correct way a per the video and it seemed to do the trick.
I took it for a short run and it ran smooth with only a kinda burble through the exhaust on deceleration..... I think I'm pretty close tuning wise. I'll check the plugs after the next ride.
Thanks for everyone's input regarding the intake leak, I never would have thought it was the problem. :up:
20220318_135201.jpg
That is great to hear! Getting close now
Thanks.
One thing that is confusing me is how to set the DTT ignition.
The instructions for setting initial timing and advance slope are really vague and only cover 3 scenarios.
1. Stock motors = 5 and 5
2. Stock and mildly modified engines = 5 and 7
3. High compression engines start = 2 and 2....
Where do I fit?
96" big bore
10-1 compression / 190ccp
83cc stock heads unmodified.
570 lift cams
Haven't even broken the engine in yet, so looking for a good starting point.
Thanks for any tips.
It's one of those things you make an initial setting and run it in whilst listening for any detonation (ping).
I would start at 5 and 5 and adjust from there.
What you are looking for is to have as much timing as you can with no pinging.
Initial timing is for low RPM and and other one is for high rpm.
Switches are easy to adjust 1 click at a time.
Number goes down to take out timing and up to add timing.
As mentioned, you can start at 5 and 5, but don't be surprised if you end up at the 2's when you start riding it hard. Mine is similar to yours, I think I'm at 1 and 2. Spark setting at multi, 1 I think on that dial.
I made it out for a half hour ride, took it easy as per break in procedure.
When I got home I pulled the plugs to see what they look like, the front plug looks possibly too lean and the rear plug looks OK??
I'm no expert at reading plugs, so do you think I should change any settings / jets on the carb? The AF mixture screw is about 2.5 turns out.
Thanks.
20220325_094838.jpg
20220325_094950.jpg
Take a photo straight on to the bottom of the plug.
They look good to me in those photos though.
Quote from: Scotty on March 24, 2022, 10:05:38 PMTake a photo straight on to the bottom of the plug.
They look good to me in those photos though.
You mean like this?
20220325_134045.jpg20220325_133739.jpg
I would run it like that no problems as they look good to me.
Unleaded fuel does not give you the same colour as leaded fuel used to and it's a air cooled motor not a water cooled car motor. One plug looks slightly better than the other but it's a Harley and it's quite normal.
look good to me as well ....
prolly NGK but what plugs are they and what gap?
Quote from: FSG on March 25, 2022, 01:23:27 AMlook good to me as well ....
prolly NGK but what plugs are they and what gap?
NGK DCPR7E 3932
I left the gaps as they were manufactured.
Thanks
I always double check the gaps, often inconsistent from the box. If dropped during any part of the shipping process they can get out of whack.
I also prefer to run mine at 35 thousandth, rather than up to the allowed 43 thousandth. I'd read years ago it takes less energy to jump the smaller gap, the fuel doesn't care if it fires with a shorter gap.
Again, it's all about the details.
For your plugs, I would clean them up a little with a brass brush, check gaps, and throw them back in with just a touch of anti size on the threads.
Kevin Baxter has a video on reading spark plugs that goes into detail.
You might want to check it out.
Clean them up a little, check gap, put on some miles.
Run a tank of gas and check your mileage. That will give you an indication if you're close on jetting.
My 95" twin cam Heritage with Mik 42 gets about low 40's on mileage.
Cam is a Andrews 26 with DTT ignition module. Stage 1 I guess.
You can tell how the engine health is by "road manners".
Does the bike start,idle,run, with no hesitation, flat spots, pops, drama, etc?
JMHO
:missed:
BTW, do use a torque value when installing the plugs?
:nix:
I try not to use any metal brush on a sparkplug, simply because dragging metal across the ceramic can deposit traces of the metal, which can induce a misfire. No problem with cleaning the threads, and I use anti-seize on any reinstallation of plugs (or O2 sensors). Gap @ .035"-.038", and make sure the accelerator pump is spraying directly on the needle.
I agree about the metal brush, especially soft brass for tracking. Stainless bristles will make scratches and a perfect set up for permanent carbon tracking. Even the old Champion spark plug cleaning machines used an abrasive blast not a brush.
With respect to the plug gap, I have used down to .022" gap in a high compression engine. The spark is hotter due to the close gap and holds for a longer duration before it collapses.
The timing cut line is indicating too much advance especially front cylinder. I usually recommend setting the DTT at 2,5 on a high compression (yes yours is this) motor. No sign of detonation because you have octane in AU. Run single fire, not multiple spark.
I'm curious on the single fire verses multi. Is the multi a multiple spark for one cylinder on compressoon, or is it a single spark per cylinder per revolution, like the original ignitions with a spark on the exhaust cycle on the second cylinder at the same time as the spark on the compression cylinder, the wasted spark system?
Quote from: HogMike on March 25, 2022, 05:47:38 AMBTW, do use a torque value when installing the plugs?
:nix:
Thanks HogMike.
No, just finger tight plus 1/4 turn with wrench.
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 25, 2022, 06:01:37 AMI try not to use any metal brush on a sparkplug, simply because dragging metal across the ceramic can deposit traces of the metal, which can induce a misfire. No problem with cleaning the threads, and I use anti-seize on any reinstallation of plugs (or O2 sensors). Gap @ .035"-.038", and make sure the accelerator pump is spraying directly on the needle.
Thanks, I'll re check the gaps and make sure the pump is spraying directly onto the needle.
Cheers
Quote from: HD Street Performance on March 25, 2022, 06:51:04 AMThe timing cut line is indicating too much advance especially front cylinder. I usually recommend setting the DTT at 2,5 on a high compression (yes yours is this) motor. No sign of detonation because you have octane in AU. Run single fire, not multiple spark.
Thanks, I will try this.
What's the theory behind running single fire vs multi spark? I'm curious because I'm sure everything I've read so far says / suggests running multi ?
Thanks
Quote from: kd on March 25, 2022, 06:33:29 AMI agree about the metal brush, especially soft brass for tracking. Stainless bristles will make scratches and a perfect set up for permanent carbon tracking. Even the old Champion spark plug cleaning machines used an abrasive blast not a brush.
With respect to the plug gap, I have used down to .022" gap in a high compression engine. The spark is hotter due to the close gap and holds for a longer duration before it collapses.
Thanks kd, what's your preferred method of gapping a plug without damaging it?
I don't have a special tool for this.
Cheers
"What's the theory behind running single fire"
DTT does not employ typical Harley dual fire, it is multiple sparks at TDC from what I was told. One spark has a higher charge and hits on time, that's my theory.
In my experience less tendency to ping and zero loss of anything
Quote from: Adam76 on March 25, 2022, 04:44:34 PMQuote from: kd on March 25, 2022, 06:33:29 AMI agree about the metal brush, especially soft brass for tracking. Stainless bristles will make scratches and a perfect set up for permanent carbon tracking. Even the old Champion spark plug cleaning machines used an abrasive blast not a brush.
With respect to the plug gap, I have used down to .022" gap in a high compression engine. The spark is hotter due to the close gap and holds for a longer duration before it collapses.
Thanks kd, what's your preferred method of gapping a plug without damaging it?
I don't have a special tool for this.
Cheers
A plug gapping tool is common and inexpensive. Look for one with a gapped fork like cut in it to hook the ground strap and bend it. I would shy away from ones with the ramp you use to go between the electrode and the strap to force them apart. It is possible to damage the plug ceramic on the electr4ode or internal resister. I only adjust the ground strap for distance. This is also a good time to inspect the strap for a sharp squared off end. The spark arcs across the sharp corners of the strap and electrode so the sharper the edges, the better. I also use actual known feeler gauges to set the clearance to the point the blade of the gauge just makes it into the gap you create and very slid drag is felt when you drag the feeler between the plug contacts.
Adam, Check out OEMTOOLS 25442. These are cheap and most auto parts stores carry them.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 25, 2022, 05:28:38 AMI always double check the gaps, often inconsistent from the box. If dropped during any part of the shipping process they can get out of whack.
I also prefer to run mine at 35 thousandth, rather than up to the allowed 43 thousandth. I'd read years ago it takes less energy to jump the smaller gap, the fuel doesn't care if it fires with a shorter gap.
Again, it's all about the details.
For your plugs, I would clean them up a little with a brass brush, check gaps, and throw them back in with just a touch of anti size on the threads.
Thanks Hoss, I checked my gaps today and they were 30 - 32 thou according to my feeler guage set.
I'm assuming this is a good gap to run. I'm hopefully going to put a few miles on the bike this week now that I'm more confident that the tuning / tuning is close.
Thanks
That gap will work just fine, good luck!
Quote from: Hossamania on March 27, 2022, 04:30:06 AMThat gap will work just fine, good luck!
OK, so I waited for some cool weather and did a 50 mile break in ride.
Something ain't right, it was a bit sluggish for what the build should be, and the ground strap of the plugs look like they have taken a beating.
Is this overheating? Detonation? Low compression?
Im running with timing on 2 / 3.... tried 5 / 5 very briefly, didn't feel any different.
I Couldn't hear any detonation while riding...
Thanks for any advice.
Here are the plugs.
Screenshot_20220404-112545_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220404-112202_Gallery.jpg
Screenshot_20220404-112150_Gallery.jpg
With my TT i am a 2 as any more it throughs back at stater currently at 7 no pinging. 10.5 and de comps. Your plugs hav strange marks on earth straps. No 2 is getting a build up off little balls on porslain maybe detonation
Are the plugs new? The electrodes and strap edges look worn.
Quote from: kd on April 03, 2022, 10:11:31 PMAre the plugs new? The electrodes and strap edges look worn.
Hey kd, yes plugs were new and installed for putting the first 50 miles out so on them and then looking at the result.
Thanks
Pauly are you running external vents? And did you mark the plugs via when removing ? If you zoom rear plug looks to have been chucked around the bench
Quote from: JSD on April 03, 2022, 11:29:25 PMPauly are you running external vents? And did you mark the plugs via when removing ? If you zoom rear plug looks to have been chucked around the bench
Yeah, nah. Definitely not thrown around the bench. Literally straight from the parts store and installed carefully.
Sluggish could be a number of things but just setting the timing at 2-3 might not be giving the motor what it wants to run. Retarding the timing usually makes the bike feel sluggish.
Single spark or multi spark?
Those plugs are under a lot of pressure and have a flame ball igniting around them from a mixture of fuel and air and they are going to take a beating so sometimes one must call into question the quality of the actual spark plug.
How anyone is seeing any sort of detonation from those photos is beyond me.
I would probably put a washer under the needle to raise it a little bit as all I can see is a bit of colour on the insulation leaning towards the bike being a bit lean.
Quote from: Scotty on April 04, 2022, 01:32:49 AMSluggish could be a number of things but just setting the timing at 2-3 might not be giving the motor what it wants to run. Retarding the timing usually makes the bike feel sluggish.
Single spark or multi spark?
Those plugs are under a lot of pressure and have a flame ball igniting around them from a mixture of fuel and air and they are going to take a beating so sometimes one must call into question the quality of the actual spark plug.
How anyone is seeing any sort of detonation from those photos is beyond me.
I would probably put a washer under the needle to raise it a little bit as all I can see is a bit of colour on the insulation leaning towards the bike being a bit lean.
Thanks Scotty,
I'll try advancing the timing a bit.
The plugs are NGK
It's currently on single fire - advised by Don - but I can try multi spark and see how that goes.
As far a the needle goes, it's not the oem needle - it's a genuine
CV performance velocity needle. I don't have any needle washers or know if you can put washers under this particular needle?
Thanks for the reply.
Leave it at single spark.
Yes you can put a washer under that needle as all you want to do is just richen up the mid range a bit.
If one washer is not enough try 2.
NGK generally good plugs it is what I run but a couple of new ones wont hurt and don't cost that much and will be an easier read once you richen up the mid range.
Thanks, will do.
I'm also going to check CCP tomorrow just to be sure I have the compression I should have.
I feel like the previous build that went south on me had more power and responsiveness... but it was with different pistons / and cams so it's apples and oranges.
Cheers
#4 brass washers are what I use for needle shimming. Autolite 4162 plugs.
Quote from: Adam76 on April 03, 2022, 10:47:15 PMQuote from: kd on April 03, 2022, 10:11:31 PMAre the plugs new? The electrodes and strap edges look worn.
Hey kd, yes plugs were new and installed for putting the first 50 miles out so on them and then looking at the result.
Thanks
It must be the quality (low pixels) of the pics then. A new set of plugs generally has distinguishable sharp edges and when enlarging your pics they do not look sharp.
Zoom in on last plug pic and notice marks on the top of outer case also impregnation on porslain
Quote from: Hossamania on April 04, 2022, 04:28:30 AM#4 brass washers are what I use for needle shimming. Autolite 4162 plugs.
Adam, I'm sorry, I gave the wrong plug number, it is 4164.
Pulled from a previous post.
spark plug chart.jpg
Quote from: kd on April 04, 2022, 06:38:46 AMQuote from: Adam76 on April 03, 2022, 10:47:15 PMQuote from: kd on April 03, 2022, 10:11:31 PMAre the plugs new? The electrodes and strap edges look worn.
Hey kd, yes plugs were new and installed for putting the first 50 miles out so on them and then looking at the result.
Thanks
It must be the quality (low pixels) of the pics then. A new set of plugs generally has distinguishable sharp edges and when enlarging your pics they do not look sharp.
Yes, sorry I'm having trouble taking close up photos on the new phone I have.... trying to sort it out.
Quote from: Hossamania on April 04, 2022, 04:28:30 AM#4 brass washers are what I use for needle shimming. Autolite 4162 plugs.
Should I shim the needle or just try a 48 pilot jet? What's the difference between the two methods?
Thanks
Just checked CCP - both cylinders at 195.
At least something is right.
Quote from: Scotty on April 04, 2022, 02:18:47 AMYes you can put a washer under that needle as all you want to do is just richen up the mid range a bit.
If one washer is not enough try 2.
Scotty, should I just go the next size up pilot jet? (48) Or do you recommend shimming the needle first?
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:37 AMQuote from: Scotty on April 04, 2022, 02:18:47 AMYes you can put a washer under that needle as all you want to do is just richen up the mid range a bit.
If one washer is not enough try 2.
Scotty, should I just go the next size up pilot jet? (48) Or do you recommend shimming the needle first?
Thanks
I fit 48 . Put sum NGK iridiums in as well. Go out a put some Ks up then have another look as rings are just bedding into cylinders.
I watched Kevin Baxter's you tube and a few others on reading plugs, mine sure do look lean compared to what they're showing is a good colour...
I hope the lean condition hasn't affected the ring seal and break in process as I've already done over 50 miles with this current set up.
Quote from: Adam76 on April 05, 2022, 01:34:37 AMQuote from: Scotty on April 04, 2022, 02:18:47 AMYes you can put a washer under that needle as all you want to do is just richen up the mid range a bit.
If one washer is not enough try 2.
Scotty, should I just go the next size up pilot jet? (48) Or do you recommend shimming the needle first?
Thanks
Pilot jet just does idle and then it transitions to needle.
So start by shimming the needle and then check the plugs again.
QuoteI watched Kevin Baxter's you tube and a few others on reading plugs, mine sure do look lean compared to what they're showing is a good colour...
I hope the lean condition hasn't affected the ring seal and break in process as I've already done over 50 miles with this current set up.
My experience is way more that 50 miles are required for plugs to develop meaningful color. I don't see any problems with the photos of the plugs you posted, but it is next to impossible to diagnose stuff like this from a picture. My bike came from the factory with a 42 pilot jet and my plug insulators looked snow white for thousands of miles till I finally re jetted the carburetor after installing different mufflers etc and it did not harm the break in one bit. I would try to dial in that ignition next to improve any sluggishness. A 48 jet is awfully rich IMO. I have tried one, always smelled gas at idle, and remember being too rich can wash upper cylinder lube away in addition to causing carbon in the combustion chamber. Take baby steps dialing this stuff in...always one modification at a time.
At 50 miles you can consider the rings bedded and broken in. IMO color wise, your plugs look normal for today's modern gas. Plug reading is no longer as easy because of lack of color change. It takes extreme conditions to come away from the white tone. This has been discussed here before that an AFR gauge is the only way to know what you have going on.
I'm with these guys, a 48 is pretty rich, start with the needle shim.
I run a 46 with modified heads, though it is a 44 carb as opposed to the 40 you have. I tried a 48 and it lasted 10 miles before I pulled it back out.
I have also had thousands of miles on plugs that come out white from lean before resetting and not had problems, but you do want to dial it in now.
Tuning is fun!
The 46 is an appropriate pilot for most with a CV40 with stock needle and main. Needle shimmed as explained. Assumptions are no other mods from stock, float level stock and properly adjusted, E10 or pure gasoline and no customer added additives. The mistake some make is adjusting the low speed screw by internet advice at "X number of turns". Adjust it to best idle and lean drop method (google). The mixture on this build is not that far off, the timing and heat range of plug is off however. I see this on the ground strap and the plugs' threads. Too hot.
Are you running pump gas and no additives? You need to in order to get a proper read plus steady state provides best results not a lot of stop and go riding.
Quote from: kd on April 05, 2022, 06:29:11 AMAt 50 miles you can consider the rings bedded and broken in. IMO color wise, your plugs look normal for today's modern gas. Plug reading is no longer as easy because of lack of color change. It takes extreme conditions to come away from the white tone. This has been discussed here before that an AFR gauge is the only way to know what you have going on.
Thanks, I agree.
I'm booked in now at the local Indy who has a dyno and will do a quick basic AFR check for me.
Great. That'll let you know here you're at and give you a target if necessary.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 05, 2022, 07:11:38 AMThe 46 is an appropriate pilot for most with a CV 40 stock needle and main.... mixture on this build is not that far off, the timing and heat range of plug is off however. I see this on the ground strap and the plugs' threads. Too hot.
Are you running pump gas and no additives? You need to in order to get a proper read plus steady state provides best results not a lot of stop and go riding.
Thanks HD, to answer your questions I'm running the CV velocity needle not the stock needle and the main is not stock either, it's a 195.
The timing is off as you have stated, so I need to advance it right?
What do you mean by heart range of the plug, what plug do you suggest? NGK iridium?
Lastly, yes I'm running basic premium pump gas with NO additives.
Thanks.
I can't comment on the jetting, a sniffer will reveal more. The stock motorcycle had a plenty rich main and needle combination, was that way so emissions calibrated low speeds kept from burning down on a long hard pull at higher speeds.
Google spark plug heat range. The numeral in the part number designates that. Until the heat range of the plug is brought down one or two steps decent timing observations on the ground strap are not available. This forum is probably not the best place to research proper spark plug reading and timing principles for maximum torque. Responsive throttle is canceled to a certain extent if you have a cam with an early exhaust open like 60deg atdc. S&S 570 right? Even with high compression some torque is sent out the pipe on exhaust and that impacts throttle response.
Update:
Got the bike on the dyno for a quick AFR evaluation.
Under normal riding conditions and rpm up to 3500 it was between 12 and 14.
He wouldn't go above 3500rpm and wouldn't give it too much load because it was a fresh build with less than 100 miles on it and that's his call.
Initially it was running lean, and he has to adjust the mixture screw 3.5 turns out to get the afr in the right range.
His advice was it's running fine, but if it was his bike he said he would try one pilot jet size up and re-dial the mixture screw back in starting at 2 turns out and playing around with it, and checking the plugs etc.
I asked if I should shim the CV velocity needle I have in there and he said no... Not sure why he was so definite on that one.
Anyway, should I do what he suggested and try a 48 pilot jet, or just leave it a it is? The plugs definitely look better now than they did before.
Thanks, and thanks again to all those who have generously helped me along with this build and all it's problems. Hopefully this will wrap things up.
Cheers
I have always felt that if you are asking someone (that appears to know what they are doing and has the test equipment) which direction to go in, listen and give it a shot. Put it back on the drum with a few more miles on it and check the results. One change at a time. FWIW and IMO the rings should be seated at the mileage you have on it but won't be happy if the mix is too far off. It sounds like you are making progress and that's good news.
I would think the shop would be comfortable going higher in the RPM on the dyno. Many bikes are broken in on the dyno and then tuned at the full RPM range.
Quote from: Ohio HD on April 07, 2022, 08:42:29 PMI would think the shop would be comfortable going higher in the RPM on the dyno. Many bikes are broken in on the dyno and then tuned at the full RPM range.
Exactly, and that was my preference but it is his policy and he just wouldn't do it. Maybe he has had bad experiences or been burned before? Who knows but he is a very well respected tuner.
So put a 48 in and adjust idle AFR screw and bike will be good.
Nothing like getting idle right and calling it good :hyst:
Quote from: Adam76 on April 07, 2022, 08:55:16 PMQuote from: Ohio HD on April 07, 2022, 08:42:29 PMI would think the shop would be comfortable going higher in the RPM on the dyno. Many bikes are broken in on the dyno and then tuned at the full RPM range.
Exactly, and that was my preference but it is his policy and he just wouldn't do it. Maybe he has had bad experiences or been burned before? Who knows but he is a very well respected tuner.
The guy who did my tune has the same policy.
30k miles later, the engine is staying together and running strong.
I'm happy! :hug:
Quote from: Scotty on April 07, 2022, 11:00:20 PMSo put a 48 in and adjust idle AFR screw and bike will be good.
Nothing like getting idle right and calling it good :hyst:
Yeah, I get it. But he didn't call it good, he called it a "break in tune" because that's all he was willing to do on a fresh build.
I needed my AFR checked and that's the best / only way I could get it...
If you rode the bike there it is already broken in.
:agree: At 100 km's your there. Many don't see it that way. S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it. I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.
Quote from: kd on April 08, 2022, 07:00:53 AM:agree: At 100 km's your there. Many don't see it that way. S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it. I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.
Monitored implies in real time. How is timing monitored on a dyno?
Quote from: turboprop on April 08, 2022, 07:44:11 AMQuote from: kd on April 08, 2022, 07:00:53 AM:agree: At 100 km's your there. Many don't see it that way. S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it. I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.
Monitored implies in real time. How is timing monitored on a dyno?
Maybe poorly worded? My point in the string was that if put on a dyno and tuned / broken in immediately instead of riding it blindfolded all of the parameters are in the control of the tuner and it will be actually safer. As you know, when a mix is lean, timing can be fragile and the engine will not be as tolerant of timing as it is with the ideal AFR.
Quote from: kd on April 08, 2022, 07:00:53 AM:agree: At 100 km's your there. Many don't see it that way. S&S for one. I think some tuners and builders feel if something goes wrong on the drum they will be blamed for it. I believe if it's hooked up and being monitored for timing and AFR it is safer than blindly running a "break in tune" on the street for 1,000 miles.
Agree 100%.
But he simply would not do a full tune until 1000km and he is the only well known tuner for Harley's in this town, especially for bikes that are older and have carby and external timing modules...
You went to him to get an answer to a question and got it. For him to get the information for that answer took time and equipment at the cost of $120.00. It moved you forward and probably money well spent.
He's obviously not interested in taking the responsibility for a complete tune "including break in" fresh right off the lift. That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't know what he is doing with the end tune. Like some other tuners he quotes the "bring it back in 1000 miles" statement. If you make that distance maybe he won't blow it up? :nix: You may have dodged a bullet by going to him. Many tuners offer a rich setting and send you away.
I guess you now have to decide how you get to a full tune. If you do what he suggested and don't confirm the AFR is OK, whose responsibility is that if it causes damage? You may have to cut a deal with him to recheck it on the drum and then put some miles on it.
Quote from: kd on April 08, 2022, 05:59:31 PMYou went to him to get an answer to a question and got it. For him to get the information for that answer took time and equipment at the cost of $120.00. It moved you forward and probably money well spent.
He's obviously not interested in taking the responsibility for a complete tune "including break in" fresh right off the lift. That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't know what he is doing with the end tune. Like some other tuners he quotes the "bring it back in 1000 miles" statement. If you make that distance maybe he won't blow it up? :nix: You may have dodged a bullet by going to him. Many tuners offer a rich setting and send you away.
I guess you now have to decide how you get to a full tune. If you do what he suggested and don't confirm the AFR is OK, whose responsibility is that if it causes damage? You may have to cut a deal with him to recheck it on the drum and then put some miles on it.
Thanks, yeah I did get what I paid for in a way.. it's just not enough info.
I'll try and talk him into putting it back on the drum for more info like afr at 1/4 1/2 and 3/4 throttle position up to at least 4000rpm, which is realistically real world riding.
And also a proper look at timing on the DTT ignition.
I'll post back when I get some more results.
:up: That sounds like forward motion to me.
Quote from: kd on April 08, 2022, 08:56:42 PM:up: That sounds like forward motion to me.
:agree: It takes time and time=money in a shop. They cost to stay open to. Bob
Quote from: FXDBI on April 08, 2022, 09:56:42 PMQuote from: kd on April 08, 2022, 08:56:42 PM:up: That sounds like forward motion to me.
:agree: It takes time and time=money in a shop. They cost to stay open to. Bob
Hey Bob, I have no problem paying for work to be performed.
I just wasn't given the option of paying more for a bit more of his time and expertise to get the info I needed.
Put some ks up and recheck plugs
Adam76
I am very late to the game here and did not read all 18 pages but I have read some of posts and the amount of advice can become very confusing..
Here is mine, take or leave it but it works extremely well for me. My bike runs strong and as far as I am concerned correct.
Here is what I have and what I am running.
2004 Softail standard.
95"
2006 modified heads and intake
Spark plugs- NGK-DCPR7E Gap .035"
Harley Forged domed piston
.30" multi layer head gasket
Squish ~.032
Compression ~10.25 : 1
S&S 570 cam
Manual comp releases
All internals reworked or new (cam plate, crank, lifters, pushrods etc.)
I am running a DTT ignition, slightly different than yours I suspect based on the changes between 2001/2 and 2004 ignitions. I have mine set at 2 and 4 and rev limit 6200rpm
For carb set up here is my set up.
CV 40
1. I radiused the slide
2. Adjusted accelerator rod for instant movement to accelerator diaphragm
3. Adjusted accelerator brass squirter angle making sure squirt goes in center of carb bore.
4. Float set to HD spec
Carb fuel parts.
48 pilot
200 Main jet
Needle - #27094-88 (NC65C) Called the "Sporty needle" commonly used on older sporters NO shim/washer!
A/F adjustment is ~ 2 to 2 1/2 turns out.
I took this to the dyno, I got 95 HP 103 tq. Very humid day.
I have been running this set up for 12 years and it has not skipped a beat!
I get 40+ MPG running at 65-70 mph
If I run hard, yes I use more gas!
Took it to Sturgis in 2015, did well over 2000 miles in 5 days while there even at higher elevation and motor never skipped a beat! Ran rich as hell but all was good!
One thing that I found when dyno tuning, For my model DTT, I purchased used, It had a altered map done by previous owner. During tuning, one of the timing adjustments did not work as expected.
Reason- My model DTT if a altered map is uploaded it removes the slope timing adjustment.
I when in through my laptop and restored the software to DTT defaults which now allowed both timing settings to actually change the timing map as designed. (not sure yours has this issue so make sure you are at the DTT factory default settings in the software.
I will also note, Once I got my carb dialed in, I was able to adjust the idle rpm down well below the spec of ~ 800-900 rpm. I actually accomplished the old Potato, potato of the older HD's as a test of a tight intake and carb connection integrity as a way of showing no intake leaks as motor ran fine. Kind of old school test for me anyways.
Of course I run ~800 -900 rpm at idle.
So, That is my set up and it may work for you also if you choose to try it.
Good luck
Thanks KGHOST, thanks for posting your set up and experience. It is a very similar build to mine.
Glad to hear it's going strong for 12 years, that's impressive. I have sent you a pm.
Cheers Adam
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 25, 2022, 06:01:37 AMI try not to use any metal brush on a sparkplug, simply because dragging metal across the ceramic can deposit traces of the metal, which can induce a misfire. No problem with cleaning the threads, and I use anti-seize on any reinstallation of plugs (or O2 sensors). Gap @ .035"-.038", and make sure the accelerator pump is spraying directly on the needle.
Thanks for this info.
When you say make sure the accelerator pump is squirting on the needle - do you mean literally directly onto the needle itself?
I'm getting slightly rich plug on the rear cylinder and a bit lean on the front. Would directing the squirt from the acc pump nozzle a few degrees toward the front cylinder (just to the right of the needle) help even things out a bit between the front and rear cylinders?
Thanks.
Quote from: Adam76 on May 17, 2022, 05:31:04 PMQuote from: rigidthumper on March 25, 2022, 06:01:37 AMI try not to use any metal brush on a sparkplug, simply because dragging metal across the ceramic can deposit traces of the metal, which can induce a misfire. No problem with cleaning the threads, and I use anti-seize on any reinstallation of plugs (or O2 sensors). Gap @ .035"-.038", and make sure the accelerator pump is spraying directly on the needle.
Thanks for this info.
When you say make sure the accelerator pump is squirting on the needle - do you mean literally directly onto the needle itself?
I'm getting slightly rich plug on the rear cylinder and a bit lean on the front. Would directing the squirt from the acc pump nozzle a few degrees toward the front cylinder (just to the right of the needle) help even things out a bit between the front and rear cylinders?
Thanks.
Mainly you are 'cruising' so the accelerator pump isn't doing much...
Now go here to RB Racing and have a read.
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/rsrgauge.htm
They are a spectacularly cantankerous bunch of old farts but as far as I can tell they know what they are doing.
I have their old dual-AFR meter on my FLTRI TC88 that now runs a Mikuni HSR42.
Can't decide whether to go 95" next year or just go to +10 88"!