Well this is the 5th example of a pinion bearing working its way out. I am now checking press fit, some are excessive and need to be adjusted. I am also trussing up the retention with a spacer, washers, and the screws installed with a counterbore for the washers.
Don. have you found a relationship to line bore or run out on the shafts causing this. It did come up a while ago through another member that detailed his fix by machining a collar of sorts to stop it from moving. I don't remember if he actually found why it moved in the first place.
I look at that as "preventative maintenance" to be done when in that far regardless
There are a few problems I have found that likely lead to the bearing walking. Stuck rods and /or runout being excessive. There is usually other collateral damage if that's the case. One other issue is when the press fit gets as high as I have seen I believe it compresses the bearing and takes out the radial clearance the rollers need to operate properly then the cage breaks. I like them to be .0025-.003 but I have seen them as high as .0055"
The reason I bought T2 cases from S$S.
My 08 didn't have anything holding that bearing in place and finding anyone in my area to do any work was nil.
It also had the Timken bearing and the cases were set for a 4.125 bore so it was a good buy.
There was a reason HD started doing it later on.
Wish I had a better picture of this. Darkhorse machines a narrow grove around the bearing bore and puts a spiral lock in, like a wrist pin lock. No way the bearing will move, and no way that retainer comes out and gets into the oil pump.
DH case.jpg
Here's a different set that Darkhorse did, this one has a snap ring where mine had the spiral lock.
(https://i.imgur.com/CMzRIHx.jpg)
I made a fixture for the rotary table and use a carbide slitting saw to cut a pair of grooves in the bearing bore. The grooves accept snap ring 35114-02.
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 07, 2021, 06:36:05 PMWish I had a better picture of this. Darkhorse machines a narrow grove around the bearing bore and puts a spiral lock in, like a wrist pin lock. No way the bearing will move, and no way that retainer comes out and gets into the oil pump.
DH case.jpg
That is how HD use to do it in 99 to 01? Not sure on years. Spiral lock on each side of bearing.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on December 08, 2021, 11:43:09 AMQuote from: Ohio HD on December 07, 2021, 06:36:05 PMWish I had a better picture of this. Darkhorse machines a narrow grove around the bearing bore and puts a spiral lock in, like a wrist pin lock. No way the bearing will move, and no way that retainer comes out and gets into the oil pump.
DH case.jpg
That is how HD use to do it in 99 to 01? Not sure on years. Spiral lock on each side of bearing.
I'm unsure on the years as well. I do remember the earlier TC motors had the bearing retained.
My example is a set of 2008 TC 'A' cases, the 2nd pic I don't know the year of those cases.
As Barrett mentioned, the S&S cases come with the bearing retained. Here is the set I'm using for my next 124". Bearing is secured.
IMG_1291.jpg
IMG_1292.jpg
Quote from: SP33DY on December 08, 2021, 11:14:44 AMI made a fixture for the rotary table and use a carbide slitting saw to cut a pair of grooves in the bearing bore. The grooves accept snap ring 35114-02.
Looks like it was 2002 for the last year it was done at HD.
This is my invention.
Before shaping and making the bolt holes.
Nice work
pix by Les ...... less the white space
(https://i.imgur.com/0DSsjsX.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Rbuy4gd.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/uynbJnd.png)
Shaping was done by hand with a file (round on one side). Also, the underside of the retainer needed additional round file shaping in spots because the casing channels are rounded at the bottom. So, I had to file angles inward for those areas to get the retainer to lie flat. Once all of the shaping was done, it took a couple of hours of thumb busting lapping, using valve lapping compound, to smooth out the little bumps of the engine casing and a wave here and there. (You want to max the surface area of the retainer to the casing and to get rid of the little casing bumps.) Again, thumb busting because there is not much rotation available for the lapping.
Loctite 620 retaining compound on the screws.
A feature of this retainer is that it immediately stops the bearing from walking out if it gets the notion to do so.
I thought before about modifying an S&S reed valve as a bearing retainer on an 03 motor. 03 has no retaining rings for right side bearing. Just press fit. Of course remove the reeds.
The Harley retaining screws still allow the bearing to walk a lot before stopping.
They did away with the retaining rings on the right side when they did away with timkin bearings on the left side :scratch:
Lots of ideas and ways to secure the bearing, all good in my opinion. Just do it. I have not checked line bore on a large enough sample to comment on how Harleys late model scheme is working and the offsets, if any. I would be interested to hear from what others have seen, end users and shops doing installations especially.
Does the bearing ever move in, towards the crank? Ive only ever seen them walk out.
It can't walk inwards, there is a stop rim.
Armin.
Quote from: D-1 on December 09, 2021, 03:57:39 PMDoes the bearing ever move in, towards the crank? Ive only ever seen them walk out.
Seems the moving is always away from the force. Flywheel being the force. Clutch basket being the force. From what I have seen at least.
As luck would have it, one just came in with no bearing retention. Here's a picture after cutting the snap ring grooves.IMG_0909_Moment.jpg
Quote from: hrdtail78 on December 10, 2021, 10:53:25 AMQuote from: D-1 on December 09, 2021, 03:57:39 PMDoes the bearing ever move in, towards the crank? Ive only ever seen them walk out.
Seems the moving is always away from the force. Flywheel being the force. Clutch basket being the force. From what I have seen at least.
Wouldn't the transmission be the force and the clutch basket the receiver of the force? Even at that, the bearing race moves on the mains shaft toward the transmission when it does move.
Quote from: kd on December 10, 2021, 12:17:27 PMQuote from: hrdtail78 on December 10, 2021, 10:53:25 AMQuote from: D-1 on December 09, 2021, 03:57:39 PMDoes the bearing ever move in, towards the crank? Ive only ever seen them walk out.
Seems the moving is always away from the force. Flywheel being the force. Clutch basket being the force. From what I have seen at least.
Wouldn't the transmission be the force and the clutch basket the receiver of the force? Even at that, the bearing race moves on the mains shaft toward the transmission when it does move.
Maybe during engine braking but clutch drives transmission. Yes, moves away from the force toward trans. I have never seen the inner race walk outwards. Just as flywheel is driving force and bearing race walks away.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on December 10, 2021, 12:31:59 PMQuote from: kd on December 10, 2021, 12:17:27 PMQuote from: hrdtail78 on December 10, 2021, 10:53:25 AMQuote from: D-1 on December 09, 2021, 03:57:39 PMDoes the bearing ever move in, towards the crank? Ive only ever seen them walk out.
Seems the moving is always away from the force. Flywheel being the force. Clutch basket being the force. From what I have seen at least.
Wouldn't the transmission be the force and the clutch basket the receiver of the force? Even at that, the bearing race moves on the mains shaft toward the transmission when it does move.
Maybe during engine braking but clutch drives transmission. Yes, moves away from the force toward trans. I have never seen the inner race walk outwards. Just as flywheel is driving force and bearing race walks away.
:doh: I was looking in the mirror :hyst:
Quote from: SP33DY on December 10, 2021, 12:15:11 PMAs luck would have it, one just came in with no bearing retention. Here's a picture after cutting the snap ring grooves.IMG_0909_Moment.jpg
This looks like the best approach to lock in that bearing (if it is indeed needed). Scott Palmer at Hillside and Larry Larrys Motorcycle Machine have been doing this for awhile. Glad to see others have also figured this out.
With the double snap rings I bet that first press in of the bearing is touchy to not get it too tight against the snap ring. That's unless the snap ring groove is positioned so the specialty tool stops it right in the perfect spot.
Quote from: les on December 10, 2021, 03:55:04 PMWith the double snap rings I bet that first press in of the bearing is touchy to not get it too tight against the snap ring. That's unless the snap ring groove is positioned so the specialty tool stops it right in the perfect spot.
George's Garages are. Touchy is perfect alignment in beginning of press going over the first snap ring groove.
Quote from: les on December 10, 2021, 03:55:04 PMWith the double snap rings I bet that first press in of the bearing is touchy to not get it too tight against the snap ring. That's unless the snap ring groove is positioned so the specialty tool stops it right in the perfect spot.
Warm the case freeze the bearing shouldn't need a press. :nix: I like the snap ring idea simple fix. Bob
From my experience the bearing walks from tight rods. Same thing happened with the Evo's in the later years only it was the race pressed on the pinion that would walk out. If your flywheels get out of whack it accelerates the problem. JMO
If the crank spreads or twists and the motor makes decent HP, the bearing can walk, even on early SnS cases. I machined groove to 0.070 for an 0.62 snap ring like shown in another post.
CB1.jpg
Quote from: les on December 10, 2021, 03:55:04 PMWith the double snap rings I bet that first press in of the bearing is touchy to not get it too tight against the snap ring. That's unless the snap ring groove is positioned so the specialty tool stops it right in the perfect spot.
I worked out my machining set-up so that the snap ring sits exactly on the raised part of the press support tool with the machined face of the case sitting on the lower step of the tool. The bearing stops when it is pressed against the snap ring and the tool. It's a very simple operation. The outer snap ring goes on with no problem to finish the job. The inner snap ring probably is not necessary, but it only takes a few minutes to cut the receiver groove, so why not do it?