HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: Ajayrk on October 27, 2012, 08:03:22 AM
Impressive work, congratulation to the artisan doing the repair.

Well yeah, but is he capable of tapping the timing hole?LOL.  That is some serious "holy s*&%" craftsmanship there.  Give the dude some props and post his info in the indy shops section or something so you don't get hit with a ton of requests for it. 

Good luck with the rest of the rebuild.

Quote from: 96flhpi on October 27, 2012, 09:18:46 AM

Quote from: Ajayrk on October 27, 2012, 08:03:22 AM
Impressive work, congratulation to the artisan doing the repair.

Well yeah, but is he capable of tapping the timing hole?LOL. ...

  I trust he can handle that.   

Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on October 27, 2012, 08:42:49 AM
I'm pleased with the way this is going.  It was hard to imagine how this case was going to look two weeks ago.  As Ajayrk said, it's the work of an artist (Perry Kime at Flo Headworks) at this point.

twincamzz, I'm going to have the numbers restamped.  I found a shop that will do that using the correct stamps for 1949.  I've got tons of documentation to establish a paper trail if it ever comes to that.  I think I'd be more likely to attract attention with an unstamped number boss.

-Craig

I agree with you Craig...leaving the VIN boss unstamped ( or incorrectly stamped) would set off a bunch of red flags !

  Looking good.

Guys,

I did a lot of research around the legality of obliterating and restamping VIN numbers because of this situation. It is widely said that it is illegal to mess with numbers for any reason. In fact I was mistakenly of the same belief and posted it above. But after locating the law (Title 18, Section 511) and reading through it I discovered that it is legal to obliterate and restore numbers for the purpose of repair and as long as the vehicle in question is not stolen. I'll post the law below so anyone who wants to read it can. I've bolded some points that I think make it clear this is all legal.

First, here is a statement I found on the Justice Departments web site:

QuoteSection 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. The legislative history is abundantly clear that subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole for the operators of "chop shops." See H.R.Rep. No. 1087 on H.R. 6257, 98th Congress, 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984).

Now the complete text of the law (it's not that long):

      (a) A person who - (1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle
 or motor vehicle part; or (2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a 
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not 
more than 5 years, or both. (b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a 
person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen). (2) The 
persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are - (A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who 
complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part; (B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, 
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair; (C) a person who restores or replaces an identification 
number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and (D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers 
with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of 
the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by - (i) the owner or his authorized agent; 
(ii) applicable State or local law; or (iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention 
Act. (c) As used in this section, the term - (1) "identification number" means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of 
identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49; (2) "motor vehicle" has the meaning given that term in section 32101 
of title 49; (3) "motor vehicle demolisher" means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is 
engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor 
vehicle or a motor vehicle part; (4) "motor vehicle scrap processor" means a person - (A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing 
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling; (B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process 
metallic scrap into prepared grades; and (C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling; but such term does not include any 
activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor 
vehicle part. (d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term "tampers with" includes covering a program decal or device affixed 
to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility. 

---

[/pre] 
I underlined part of paragraph 2 subsection C which talks about restoring number in accordance with state law. I checked the Arizona Revised Statutes. There is one statute that talks about obliteration/modifiction/restoration of VIN numbers (13-4702). It specifically gives exceptions to the limitations on obliteration/modifiction/restoration of VIN numbers as follows:

Quote
B. This section does not apply to law enforcement authorities and lawful owners acting in good faith, towing companies or scrap processors, licensed automotive recyclers and other businesses acting in good faith and in the normal course of business and in conformance with all applicable laws.

So as far as the state of Arizona and the Federal Government is concerned, I'm not worried about any of this activity.

Sorry for the long post.  But since early on in the thread we had been talking about the legal issues I thought I'd post what I had learned about it and clear up any misunderstandings.

-Craig

I'm very glad that there is a law that will protect you and the guy who will restore your numbers. If I were you, I'd keep a copy of that law with your bike and registration papers, to keep any of the LEO's satisfied that everything is on the up and up. It's probably nothing that you will ever have to deal with but for the off chance, it's good to have your paper trail handy.
We have a DPS Supervisor in our area who is extremely knowledgeable in Harley numbers. He and I have talked many times about different bikes, numbers, mismatches and so on. He's a real stickler about legal bikes, handlebars and turn signals. I've loaned him my Palmers guide and some other manuals, a couple of times when he had to check on stuff to make sure a bike is legit. When there is an up-date to motorcycle laws, he usually drops by with a copy for me. Now that we are an inspection station also, we see a LOT of troopers. (Never did want to inspect bikes, we're all crooked, you know)
EASY

Good to hear about the VIN number deal. I have talked to other folks that have done some pretty tedious  restorations and they restamped their legit numbers accordingly. Just did not know how it worked from state to state. That's why I figured it would not hurt to ask around. Oh, the case repair looks pristine!!

Craig, thanks for posting the exact legal wording. It's good to see a section of law that includes some common sense.
Eric

The motor numbers have been restored...

Photo Link

Photo Link

Thats sweet ! 

Whats up with the 'b' at the end ? I dont recall ever seeing that before, of course my memory is slightly foggy now a days 

Quote from: War Horse on November 05, 2012, 01:25:02 PM
Thats sweet ! 

Whats up with the 'b' at the end ? I dont recall ever seeing that before, of course my memory is slightly foggy now a days 

Yeah, and what the hell year was "194-upsidedown-b"

Seriously, not knowing these girls, how original do the #'s look.

Looks good. You'll be glad you re-stamped.
I never saw a letter at the end either.
Also, are there threads in the timing hole? Pictures may be deceptive, they don't call me deadeye for nothing. 

    the "b" is a 6.  That's the correct shaped stamp ... a 6 with a straight back.  I think the brain makes it look like a "b" because of the spacing.  Look at the original stamp on page 3 of this thread and you'll see it's the same. 

When you examine real close, the stamps are not 100% identical to the original.  The top of the "1" for example looks a little different.  And the "6" does look a bit more like a "b".

Oh... and no, the timing hole is not quiet complete yet. A bit more work to do there.

-Craig

Ok so, manufactured 10 month, 226th (for that month?) build of 1949. I dont recall seeing more than 4 numbers after the model designation before. Educate me 

There are a lot of 5 digit panheads out there.  The numbers following the "FL" are called the sequence #'s and they started with 1001 for each model year.  As each bike rolled through the factory it got a unique sequence #.  The sequence #'s should not repeat for any panhead model (FL, EL, etc.) from what I understand.  So my sequence # is 10226.  That means it was the 9225th panhead to go through the factory that year (1949).  There were something around 12,700 panheads built in 1949 (comprised of EL (solo and sidecar), FL (solo and sidecar), ELP, FLP) so my sequence # is easily in that range.

-Craig

Looks good   

Quote from: CraigArizona85248 on November 05, 2012, 02:17:07 PM
Oh... and no, the timing hole is not quiet complete yet. A bit more work to do there.

-Craig

See, I told you he couldn't handle that part .

Lookin good. If she were my bike it would have driven me nuts to not have it stamped. Now bake in some fingerprints for a little patina and you're good to go. 

YUP Lookin real good there! How much longer you think you have to wait to get her back running?
EASY

Looks good . I couldn't handle it with out numbers also .

Just ride her & the patina will come back . Hell, it doesn't take long to get them dirty, he should bake some finger prints on upon assembly.

simply amazing what the right hands can do with these old machines. Good to see another piece of history saved. Good job Craig ! 

Looks great Craig!  A Curly would say:  "Poifect!!"

Blazin'

(tom)

   Looks good Craig!  Nice to see that he didn't use a straight edge along the bottom.  Gives it that "Factory" look.

So.... Craig, how is the project coming along? Anxious to see new pics.   

I'm still waiting for the motor to be buttoned up. Nothing new to report. I'll post up anything new that seems interesting.

-Craig