Oil pressure drops from 30 to 0

[JW113]

10 psi is a whole lot more than 0 psi and a glowing red idiot light. Removing the gauge is not going to solve the low oil pressure problem.

-JW

[fbn ent]

Lost my oil pressure on the TC because of a bad (real BAD) inner cam bearing. Would be ok albeit lower until it warmed up....Just sayin...

[thumper 823]

I have been following this loosely -
Have you tried a new gauge?
Next- all oils have about the same poor points when hot, a 60 weight will not be much more in viscosity if any.
It is a false premise.

[JW113]

The first thing I tried was another oil pressue sender unit. The second one behaived exactly like the first. I only added the gauge just to see what was happening, and why the light was on. It's on because there is no oil pressue  after the motor warms up a little. I don't need another oil gauge to confirm. I need fix the oil pressue problem. Hopefully this coming weekend. Will let you know what I find.

-JW

[thumper 823]

There are not too many tight places in an HD engine, not like flat bearing engines in cars where 0.003 is a normal tolerance.
So-I am going to have to susppect the pump.

Prolly the relief spring I would hope.
That would be my goto.

[Burnout]

Oil: Castrol GTX 20w50

Uh, Houston, we have a problem....

That is not suitable oil for an air cooled roller bearing motor, that stuff turns the consistency of water when it gets hot.

Try some Valvoline VR1 racing oil, or Harley 20-50 and see what happens.
Then I'd put a cooler on it...

[koko3052]

Oil: Castrol GTX 20w50

Uh, Houston, we have a problem....

That is not suitable oil for an air cooled roller bearing motor, that stuff turns the consistency of water when it gets hot.

Try some Valvoline VR1 racing oil, or Harley 20-50 and see what happens.
Then I'd put a cooler on it...

No oil pressure means....NO OIL PRESSURE! 

[Burnout]

No hot oil pressure indicated.

A 60 lb gauge isn't going to show much movement at 3-5#.

Are the lifters rattling? If the lifters are not collapsing it has enough oil pressure.

[thumper 823]

No hot oil pressure indicated.

A 60 lb gauge isn't going to show much movement at 3-5#.

Are the lifters rattling? If the lifters are not collapsing it has enough oil pressure.

Unhook the line to the filter , and crank her up.
I always do this at oil change anyway to get rid of the residual in the system (plus I have a cooler inline)
You should have a flow out of it or to it f you unhook the wrong one.
Do it when it is hot .

[JW113]

I thought post 10 desribed what is happening pretty well. But, to summarize:

Was running perfectly, NO issues what-so-ever, and yes, with Castrol GTX.
I found the engine case had cracked, so I replaced them.
NOW I have a problem.
"Pegged at 30psi" sort of eludes to a 30psi gauge, yes?
Oil is getting warm. Not hot. As in maybe 160 deg?

I've never ran an oil cooler on an Evo. My opinion, they don't need one. On a hot day around here, high 90s, the oil gets up to perhaps 220 deg. The vast majority of the time, it's in the 80s or below, and the oil runs about 200 deg. In either casen no BFD.

Not to get into an oil debate, but Harley-Davidson does not have the air cooled engine market cornered. In my younger days, I rode air cooled Hondas. Guess what the factory recommends? (hint: it begins with a C) I drove an air cooled Chevy Corvair for 20 years, maybe 1/4 million miles, using Castrol 20W50. Guess what? No problems what-so-ever. Lots and lots of Volkswagen beetles out there runing regular old oil. Need I go on?

Use what you want, I have no evidence at all that says there is anything wrong with using non-Harley oil in a Harley-Davidson. My opinion, it's all a marketing giminck.

I put a new Ultima oil pump on last night. What a PITA. Will fire it up in a while and see what happens.

-JW

[JW113]

Well this is certainly turning into a real fun project. I installed a new Ultima oil pump onto a new Ultima engine case. What could go wrong? Although I have not had it running long enough to get the oil warm, it certainly has a lot of oil pressure now. As in, the 30psi gauge I have on it, the needle spins all the way around to the zero stop! But alas, there is some bad news.

Now it is POURING oil from somewhere behind the oil pump. I pulled the cover, checked everything out. Ultima provides new mount screws with the pump, and I had used those. But they are longer than the stock screws. I measured the depth of the holes in the case, thickness of pump body and cover, and felt that perhaps the screws were bottoming out before the pump got tightened. I put the cover back on with the stock screws, but that was not the problem, still a major leak.

So now the decision, spend an hour or more fighting with that C ring on the pump drive shaft to get pump off from the outside, or spend an hour or more pulling the exhaust and nose cone and remove the retaining ring from the inside.

I think I'll just start drinking...

-JW

p.s. if anybody has a slick way or handy tool to remove that damn oil pump C ring, do tell!

[thumper 823]

I am happy for you that you are closing in on it.!
As I said B4 -oil viscosity has little to do with it once hot, albeit I suspected
the relief spring.
Next-AFAIK gaskets are a huge problem!
If you take it back apart compare old ones  with new as there are several versions of the pump
orifices.

[MikeL]

When you get the oil pump off compare the "low pressure pump" with the ultuma pump. Kind of curious to see what or if there is a difference.

                                                                                                       MIKE

[JW113]

By low pressure pump, do you mean the stock pump? The Ultima pump that I bought is their "regular" pump, not their high volume one. As has been stated by many, a Harley-Davidson V twin doesn't really need a ton of oil flowing through it. Perhaps in a very few applications where oil is being used to cool the motor, but even then I think the stock pump does just fine in that department.

I'll pop the nose cone this morning and pull the pump, see what is going on. By the amount of oil dripping, I can't hardly see how it is from the gasket surfaces. Perhaps that plug on the back side of the pump?

Oh, and one more thing...

May the 4th be with you. And me!

[attach=0]

-JW

[rageglide]

These pumps will leak pretty good if the pump to case gasket slips slightly out of place.  This results in the scavenge cavity not being fully seperated from the through hole used to bolt the pump to the case.  BTDT

[JW113]

You don't say?


It turns out the problem was the ham-fisted gorilla that worked on the bike.
[attach=0]

Back together with a new gasket, seems to running perfectly. Oil pressure pegs the gauge at cold start, after the oil warms up it's got 20psi at 2000rpm, and about 3psi at idle. Oil light never comes on. I went for a 25 mile ride, the air temp here is 75 deg, I was doing 80mph most of the time, oil never got higher than 180 deg.

So back to the original problem, oil light comes on and no oil pressure below 1800 rpms. I gave the stock oil pump a real good look over, can't find anything at all wrong with it. It was working perfectly on the stock engine case, and this problem happened right after replacing the case with Ultima. I put an Ultima pump on it, now it's working perfectly. Some sort of incompatibility with Ultima and stock oil pump? That's all I can figure. And good luck asking Ultima about it. ZERO tech support. That's always been the thing I love about S&S, easy to get help and they have a moutain of tech literature. Ultima.... nichts, nada, niente. But their stuff is cheap!


-JW

[rageglide]

 

That's taking the 'slip' to the next level!  I guess it's a good thing Evo's filter oil on it's way to the oil tank...

[Dan89flstc]

Oil: Castrol GTX 20w50

Uh, Houston, we have a problem....

That is not suitable oil for an air cooled roller bearing motor, that stuff turns the consistency of water when it gets hot.

Tossing a BS flag on this one...

20w50 GTX was pretty much the go to oil for air cooled engines since it came out in 1966 (the first 20w50 oil).

The brand of oil was not the problem here.

EVO engines do not overheat the oil, no cooler is needed unless heavily modified.

[rredneckn2]

I owned several vw beetles in my teens and 20/50 Gtx was THE oil for them. Bob Woods told me years ago he runs it in his bikes.

[capn]

JW, great that you hung in there and got it done.Sometimes this old iron fights us at every turn but you just gotta fight back . Good on you bro.

[thumper 823]

This will sound snotty (snitty)....LOL
But oil reports are publically available for all to read, and I have actually spent hours reading them.
I suggest you all knuckle dwn buckle dwn and do your share and not be swallowed up by internet BS!
They all say hot pour point are all about the same (viscosity ) whilst cold pour points will vary a LOT even within the same weights but different brands.
I have seen the test by objective scientist testers.
I have had bearing bandit (one are bearing testers) explained as to the hoax they are.
There are MANY ways to cheat and get the numbers you want.
I am NOT about to recommend oils on what I know from reports.
I will just say this the top four are usually and always the top four.
Further, probably the worst oil rated made will not ruin your engine right away.
So again to actually think oil pressure will be raised by adding a higher viscosity is wrong thinking
according to every engineered oil report out there.

[capn]

So why not run 30 weight then?

[Pete_Vit]

To the OP...Ditch the gauge. As stated, your idiot light and lifters will tell you all you need to know.

Ditch that pressure gauge and get a temp gauge 

[Burnout]

Right there in the front section of the manual (the part no one reads)
For even a twin cam motor it says,
"in ambient temps over 80° to use 60w oil"
Not 20-50
To be able to use 20-50 oil in high ambient temps you need a cooler.

Also 20-50 oil from different mfgrs is different oil.
Just because it says 20-50 on the label does not make it the same.
The SAE has sold us out, and the new oils found on the shelf in most auto parts stores is no longer suitable for use in a Harley.

I never said Castrol 20 50 was a BAD oil, it is not suitable for use in a Harley.
I can hear the difference running fully warmed up.
And I can see the difference in viscosity when I pull the drain plug on hot oil.

What is your aversion to running the recommended oil?
So you can say "I did it my way?"

If you are not going to install an oil coler,
Try a tank full of Valvoline VR-1 60w oil and see the difference for yourself.
Might be cheaper than the HD oil I would use.
The VR-1 has the zinc we need and very similar viscosity to the HD oil.

I have an 87 EVO that must have 100k miles on the original motor never been rebuilt, crank, pistons, rings, heads, UNTOUCHED!
I have beaten it like an ugly stepchild, broken everything around the motor riding it like I stole it.
It has run for HOURS (many) at full throttle through the Calif central valley.
It has more miles on the rear wheel only, than some bikes get on both.
It has more miles doing burnouts, than some bikes ever see.
No low oil pressure problems.
No lifter failure.
It might even have the original INA inner cam bearing in it! It's been so long I can't recall.
No smoke, no oil consumption, no signs of giving up.
No mods other than cam carb and exhaust. Stock ignition also.
It has always had an oil cooler on it and has always run 20-50w (primarily HD brand).

I would NEVER consider putting CASTROL GTX in the oil tank!!! Even with a cooler!!!

[thumper 823]

I am not an oil engineer-
However, am a very good student of most other disciplines.
I will relate this to you-  years ago when 20-50 Penz Oil  race oil hit the market (early 70s)-
Harley was still saying we had to run the 60 weight crap and even heavier!!.
I switched to 20/50 Pennz Oil anyway, and guess what?
It never blew up .
I rode it  Coast to coast, Sturgis and more !etc etc.
Years latter HD finally got on board with 20/50 too.
Same story with very large diesel engines.
They are now running zero thirty, or 5W something.
They have all dropped the straight weight nonsense too.
In fact, the Best oil made has a pressure rating of over one hundred thousand pounds and is only a  5/30 !
Compare that with most oils!
lots are below 80,000 Psi.
So again -cold point viscosity tells nothing of the real attributes to an oil.
As time marches along we have seen all engines drop the high viscosity requirements.
To answer your question - Can 30 weight be used in your HD?
I am unable to ANSWER THAT QUESTION  or I would be just another internet BS artist.
I would ask a real live oil engineer if I was on the quest, and I can guess the answer.
However, I can assure you the hot viscosity is no more than an oil rated higher.
Again i do hope you all read over some objective oil reports.
I find great freedom in not being harnessed to the internet BS, and WOW IS THERE A LOT OF IT.
For the first read start over at "Bob the oil guy"-that is simple enough.
Then start looking at "oil test reports"
For those of you that advocate HD oil-wait until you find out what is (or is not)
Remember a PA will buy the stuff from the cheapest bidder by the trainload with a Harley label on it.