Well its time to replace my 100k plus mile EVO in my Road King and I'm going for performance. Im also going with the black edition motor. The Ultima is close to half the price of the S&S motor with a 1 year warranty vs 2 year S&S. I'm sure either of these motors will keep me satisfied performance wise for at least a little while. I know S&S is the best but for the cost? I ride about 5k miles a year cause I have a Wide Glide also. Whats the good and bad between the 2? Gonna hopefully do the engine swap this winter after snow flies. Also what would be a good clutch upgrade since I'll need that also. Thanks and welcome all comments
Displacement aside, there are huge differences between the Ultima Evo engines and the S&S 4-⅛" bore Evo engines. There will be many responses here filled with hyperbole, do your own research. Look at the manufacturers website and the features of each those engines.
Performance is important to me as is reliability and longevity. I know S&S is the best company but there being a almost 3 grand price difference how much better is the S&S? What research I've done already there have been many happy with the ultima engines. But some have had issues but some have had issues with their S&S engines but very few and one issue reoccurring issues were rod failures in 03 and 04 year built motors and seems those issues have been addressed. If this was my sole ride and i was riding 10k miles a year I'd go S&S but I ride roughly 5 to 8k a year in Maine but I sometimes ride hard and fast with some hell raising thrown in. And at first I'm sure I'll be happy with the 125hp these motors put out.
Seems like your mind is already made up. Best of luck.
There are many opinions out there, Ill give you mine.I ride a 97 ultra with a 120 ultra ,S&S rocker arms feuling lifters S&S g carb.Thats all you have to change and its still way cheaper than S&S motor. Ive over 6000 miles on mine and runs great no smoke no using oil.Im at the point where Im selling my oem motor because I trust the ultima now.
ive had & built a lot of both (helped with the development with the ULTIMA engine program) out of the box,the ultima will produce more power,but with a little work,the S&S will be right there.im not a big fan of crate motors,i think your better off building yours,that said,the S&S assembly isn't bad but if going ultima,i would get the motor unassembled and check all clearances and either assemble it yourself or a trusted engine builder
Agree with Kirby, after having both S&S and Ultima, a bench built motor has less chance of failure, than a assembly line motor.
12 years and over 60k on my Ultima 127
I got over 60,000 on my 127" Ultima, still running strong. Test engine Ken Francis sent me to do R&D on.
John
Quote from: jsachs1 on September 29, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
I got over 60,000 on my 127" Ultima, still running strong. Test engine Ken Francis sent me to do R&D on.
John
John,
Is this an apples to apples untouched, as is, from Ultima crate 127" or a touched up, worked on, tweaked, apples to oranges comparison crate from Kenny- that maybe you have changed parts and leaned on?
Reason I ask is my R&D motors have all kinds of switched parts...mine were no where near a crate.
Quote from: pwmorris on October 02, 2018, 07:21:17 PM
Quote from: jsachs1 on September 29, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
I got over 60,000 on my 127" Ultima, still running strong. Test engine Ken Francis sent me to do R&D on.
John
John,
Is this an apples to apples untouched, as is, from Ultima crate 127" or a touched up, worked on, tweaked, apples to oranges comparison crate from Kenny- that maybe you have changed parts and leaned on?
Reason I ask is my R&D motors have all kinds of switched parts...mine were no where near a crate.
1 of the first production 127" engines Ultima built. It had a knock that would go away after 8 miles. Ken had me check some things, and I couldn't find the problem. Finally I took the heads off to check things, and install some 2.250" intake valves. Immediately saw the problem. The rear piston was barley hitting the head. Checked deck heights, and found the rear cylinder .015" shorter than the front cylinder. I cut the piston, reinstalled, and all was good.
In the meantime Ken sent me 2 new pistons and cylinders with a different liner material.
We were in a rush to get to Biketoberfest that year(2004), so my break in with the new pistons and cylinders was done on the ride from Ft. Lauderdale to Daytona.
Whipped it on the dyno last day of Biketoberfest, made 147.6 hp, and 149 torque SAE after 2 jet changes on 1 of my "G" carbs. Still a little rich.
Numbers ******** :SM: with a little more work. I received another engine since the original (broke a valve at the tulip),and that engine has been in the bike since 2007. Runs strong considering the mileage on it.
John
Oh, got into a 114 message pissing contest on this forum, back in the day with Howard Kelly when he was working for S&S. Ultima vs. S&S.
Oh, got into a 114 message pissing contest on this forum, back in the day with Howard Kelly when he was working for S&S. Ultima vs. S&S.
Loved that one. :up:
They hired him to write the service manuals. They read just like a magazine article. Wasted their money on that one.
Quote from: jsachs1 on October 03, 2018, 03:29:51 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on October 02, 2018, 07:21:17 PM
Quote from: jsachs1 on September 29, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
I got over 60,000 on my 127" Ultima, still running strong. Test engine Ken Francis sent me to do R&D on.
John
John,
Is this an apples to apples untouched, as is, from Ultima crate 127" or a touched up, worked on, tweaked, apples to oranges comparison crate from Kenny- that maybe you have changed parts and leaned on?
Reason I ask is my R&D motors have all kinds of switched parts...mine were no where near a crate.
1 of the first production 127" engines Ultima built. It had a knock that would go away after 8 miles. Ken had me check some things, and I couldn't find the problem. Finally I took the heads off to check things, and install some 2.250" intake valves. Immediately saw the problem. The rear piston was barley hitting the head. Checked deck heights, and found the rear cylinder .015" shorter than the front cylinder. I cut the piston, reinstalled, and all was good.
In the meantime Ken sent me 2 new pistons and cylinders with a different liner material.
We were in a rush to get to Biketoberfest that year(2004), so my break in with the new pistons and cylinders was done on the ride from Ft. Lauderdale to Daytona.
Whipped it on the dyno last day of Biketoberfest, made 147.6 hp, and 149 torque SAE after 2 jet changes on 1 of my "G" carbs. Still a little rich.
Numbers ******** :SM: with a little more work. I received another engine since the original (broke a valve at the tulip),and that engine has been in the bike since 2007. Runs strong considering the mileage on it.
John
Oh, got into a 114 message pissing contest on this forum, back in the day with Howard Kelly when he was working for S&S. Ultima vs. S&S.
Nice- :up:
Never dealt with Howard Kelly-
During that time of your Dyno run I usually dealt with Jody A or Ted G, who I would see also at the track from time to time. Sure is different nowadays...
Sounds like a solid motor now that you have got it sorted. Of course I'm an S&S guy, but Ultima is a great value and Midwest seems to (or from what I've heard since I cant speak to them either way) stand behind the product if things go south.
I also like that they like to go big...
http://www.ultimaproducts.com/140engine.html (http://www.ultimaproducts.com/140engine.html)
I've found S&S warranty is more generous than "2 yrs". They tend to help legitimate issues way beyond 2 yrs as long as an authorized dealer plays go between, even if you did the install yourself. ZERO experience with Ultima.
Howard was HotBike editor before S&S... 'splains the S&S write ups Larry mentioned.
"120 or 131 Merch motors and Ultimas are allmost identical" "Ken Franks was the lead engineer at Merch was a big part in the design and production of Ultima motors"
FWIW I just copied this from a 2013 HTT thread on Merch engines. It should add a little spice to the conversation. Merch 120 and 131 was known as an all-round strong engine.
Only Merch as I recall from back in the day was the 131". S&S was late to the game building cases that allowed for the 4+ bore (shifted dimensions). 96" was their bread and butter. S&S did bring a 124 but I think it was close to 2000. I'm sure others remember better.
Back in those days the cost was non starter for everyone I knew so I tended to drool from afar. Definitely aimed at the "rolex rider" crowd...
Quote from: kd on October 03, 2018, 07:27:42 PM
"120 or 131 Merch motors and Ultimas are allmost identical" "Ken Franks was the lead engineer at Merch was a big part in the design and production of Ultima motors"
FWIW I just copied this from a 2013 HTT thread on Merch engines. It should add a little spice to the conversation. Merch 120 and 131 was known as an all-round strong engine.
I worked on the first Merch engines with Jerry and Kenny. Not at all like an Ultima. Merch had the best cases in the business. You could never pull a stud.
The motors suffered from a size problem, and had to be made to fit in all the MoCo frames. This in MHO, was a problem with trying to make the power they should have. The intake ports at the entrance were the culprit. Part of the valve spring seat area hung in the roof of the port.
I have a merch 131 with after market head actually there made by Ultra pro plus in NC raised intake and exhaust ports. Nice to know that the case are really strong they also have one more crankcase bolt. Mine made 162 hp with a 2.1" intake valve.
John
Personally I have had nothing but bad luck with my Ultima 120" . Last year the lifter needle bearings failed and locked the motor up. This year blown out base gasket on front cylinder ..... :idunno:
My 97 Evo had a heart transplant over a year ago with the S&S 111. Engine runs great . Bought the long block for about $4,500.