HarleyTechTalk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXN37v07YYI
This is with the ram Jett retainer installed. I pulled the key out and installed the hub to eliminate the possibility that the key was causing any issue . After I took this video, I removed the frictions and steels, removed the retainer, slipped the shell off and measured runout at friction surface of the hub. 13 thou in and out and 3 thou out of round. Looks like I need a new hub. I've done some research, and most say there a little wobble is normal, this has to be excessive. I did check the mainshaft, 2 thousandths at the taper

If your going to start buying parts,bite the bullet and get a Rivera Pro Clutch kit and all your clutch trouble will disappear.

Did you check the shaft to see if it may be bent?

https://youtube.com/shorts/yzkE0gsiPP4?feature=share
The only movement is at the key way. I also measured the straight part of the shaft just before the threads and that was .005 in. The manual says .003 for service limit. I didn't measure before I installed inner primary. I didn't have the base for the dial indicator.I bought it after I saw the issue in the first video. The bike shifted ok before I took it apart to fix the main leak. Pretty frustrating.

https://youtu.be/13PRMdJ23tI
Video of the shell run out

Well I would expect that at the clutch basket. The 0.005 movement is exaugurated at a larger OD and the basket being offset from the point you measured the shaft. If in fact the shaft is bent slightly, you'll see that same runout no matter what clutch you put on it. However some clutches may be more tolerant of some runout. Truthfully the early style four speed OEM clutch is a very loose tolerance assembly. I honestly wouldn't expect that movement to cause much issue with the clutch operation. Think about the OEM bearings in that loose cage between the basket and the hub. Lots of wiggle there.

If you measured it assembled without the key in place it may be the key slot edges are deformed. See if you can feel any raised edge with your finger or nail or a knife edge.  Take a very fine file and lightly touch up the perimeter of the keyway to dress out any imperfections caused by key wobble or installation scarring.  Then reassemble and see if there was a raised edge causing it to not sit on the taper properly.

One thing to also consider, you're measuring the basket ring gear through many connections that make their way back to the mainshaft. I doubt the ring gear is 100% true to the basket. The clutch basket sits on a piece of clutch lining on the clutch hub. Then is that clutch hub lining sitting perfectly at 90° to the mainshaft? Lots of places for tolerance build up.

Aside from what you're seeing, have you tried to operate the clutch with the bike running? Is it not working as it should? Maybe try to take a reading at the clutch hub lining. What you're seeing could be in the basket only.

I also have seen the clutch hub taper get distorted when they were over tightened.

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 04, 2023, 01:27:52 PMOne thing to also consider, you're measuring the basket ring gear through many connections that make their way back to the mainshaft. I doubt the ring gear is 100% true to the basket. The clutch basket sits on a piece of clutch lining on the clutch hub. Then is that clutch hub lining sitting perfectly at 90° to the mainshaft? Lots of places for tolerance build up.

Aside from what you're seeing, have you tried to operate the clutch with the bike running? Is it not working as it should? Maybe try to take a reading at the clutch hub lining. What you're seeing could be in the basket only.

I also have seen the clutch hub taper get distorted when they were over tightened.

.
I see your point. The issue that is concerning me is the way the clutch hub wobbles. It's like it's not on straight. I did measure to the lining on the hub and there is .013 runout.I agree it's compounded the further from the centerline of the shaft. I'm thinking about the primary chain as well and the effect on that

Quote from: Chippitt68 on July 04, 2023, 01:46:27 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 04, 2023, 01:27:52 PMOne thing to also consider, you're measuring the basket ring gear through many connections that make their way back to the mainshaft. I doubt the ring gear is 100% true to the basket. The clutch basket sits on a piece of clutch lining on the clutch hub. Then is that clutch hub lining sitting perfectly at 90° to the mainshaft? Lots of places for tolerance build up.

Aside from what you're seeing, have you tried to operate the clutch with the bike running? Is it not working as it should? Maybe try to take a reading at the clutch hub lining. What you're seeing could be in the basket only.

I also have seen the clutch hub taper get distorted when they were over tightened.

.
I see your point. The issue that is concerning me is the way the clutch hub wobbles. It's like it's not on straight. I did measure to the lining on the hub and there is .013 runout.I agree it's compounded the further from the centerline of the shaft. I'm thinking about the primary chain as well and the effect on that

I have not gotten the bike off the lift since the mainshaft leak repair. I am gonna put it back together and see how it works.

Quote from: Chippitt68 on July 04, 2023, 01:46:27 PMI see your point. The issue that is concerning me is the way the clutch hub wobbles. It's like it's not on straight. I did measure to the lining on the hub and there is .013 runout.I agree it's compounded the further from the centerline of the shaft. I'm thinking about the primary chain as well and the effect on that

I do understand your concerns. And I'd be as bad trying to solve it. I just don't want you to beat your head against the wall to hard or too long. 

Consider all of the changes and upgrades HD did over the years just to the primary area of the bike. All of that was to keep things straight and true and operate better.

You could lift the rear tire off the table, and set the lift on the ground. Start it and see how it operates. You don't need fluid in there to test. You do want the primary on to use the electric starter.

Quote from: kd on July 04, 2023, 12:59:13 PMIf you measured it assembled without the key in place it may be the key slot edges are deformed. See if you can feel any raised edge with your finger or nail or a knife edge.  Take a very fine file and lightly touch up the perimeter of the keyway to dress out any imperfections caused by key wobble or installation scarring.  Then reassemble and see if there was a raised edge causing it to not sit on the taper properly.

Thanks. I have had two different keys installed as well as having the key removed. One of the keys was slightly taller by a couple thousandths. When I used the taller one, it made it much harder to remove the hub. With the smaller one, it didn't take much force on the puller to remove the hub.

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 04, 2023, 01:53:35 PM

Quote from: Chippitt68 on July 04, 2023, 01:46:27 PMI see your point. The issue that is concerning me is the way the clutch hub wobbles. It's like it's not on straight. I did measure to the lining on the hub and there is .013 runout.I agree it's compounded the further from the centerline of the shaft. I'm thinking about the primary chain as well and the effect on that

I do understand your concerns. And I'd be as bad trying to solve it. I just don't want you to beat your head against the wall to hard or too long. 

Consider all of the changes and upgrades HD did over the years just to the primary area of the bike. All of that was to keep things straight and true and operate better.

You could lift the rear tire off the table, and set the lift on the ground. Start it and see how it operates. You don't need fluid in there to test. You do want the primary on to use the electric starter.

I resolved myself to do just that. Thanks for your help

https://youtube.com/shorts/t6WC4_x20Wg?feature=share

5 finger hub was bent. Went with the comp master from APM.
I had to file the key down. Hub doesn't wobble. Wobble in basket is barely there. Clutch came with one friction plate damaged.

Pic of nicked friction

You cannot view this attachment.

The clutch looks good, pretty darn smooth looking. I'd say you'll be very pleased with it.

Thanks. Here's hoping

Can't go wrong with a APM (i.e Pro Clutch). Don't know why I waited so long, totally transformed the bike. I used to wonder why Shovels clanked so loudly going into first from neutral and between shifts. Now with the APM, I wonder most of the time if it even went into first from neutral, no noise or shudder what so ever. And shifts are quiet. Amazing, all that bad behavior was due to the stock clutch.

You have the gold spring in there, yes? Do you feel the clutch lever is a bit hard to pull? I mean a lot harder than the stock clutch. I called Ben Kudon, complained, he thought I set it up wrong, etc, etc. I went back and checked everything, include the arc on the spring, exactly as he spec's it. That Gold spring is listed as a "competition" spring, the web page lists it as "for race applications & high output motors". I don't think my stock 74" street bike is either of those, so I ordered the black spring. What a difference, love the clutch even more now. Not killing my hand to pull the lever.

Keep us posted!

-JW

Quote from: JW113 on July 24, 2023, 06:59:04 PMNot killing my hand to pull the lever.

I backed my springs right down to minimum-without-slip. Clutch hand really appreciates it, I hear you on that one..
Agree, getting clutch working nicely is the secret to smooth shifting, no big clank into 1st and finding neutral etc. Good to know APM clutches work well.

Quote from: JW113 on July 24, 2023, 06:59:04 PMCan't go wrong with a APM (i.e Pro Clutch). Don't know why I waited so long, totally transformed the bike. I used to wonder why Shovels clanked so loudly going into first from neutral and between shifts. Now with the APM, I wonder most of the time if it even went into first from neutral, no noise or shudder what so ever. And shifts are quiet. Amazing, all that bad behavior was due to the stock clutch.

You have the gold spring in there, yes? Do you feel the clutch lever is a bit hard to pull? I mean a lot harder than the stock clutch. I called Ben Kudon, complained, he thought I set it up wrong, etc, etc. I went back and checked everything, include the arc on the spring, exactly as he spec's it. That Gold spring is listed as a "competition" spring, the web page lists it as "for race applications & high output motors". I don't think my stock 74" street bike is either of those, so I ordered the black spring. What a difference, love the clutch even more now. Not killing my hand to pull the lever.

Keep us posted!

-JW

I think it's the silver one.
I'll let you know about the pull when I get the new cable and bars on. Previous owner put beach bars on and the cable isn't routed properly. It's been burned by the crossover pipe. It's not in great shape. 

Pic of spring

You cannot view this attachment.

OK my bad. Yes, the silver one, the one that came in it, right? And yes, that one also says "competition". Check it out, you may be fine with it, buy to my hand the APM with silver spring felt as stiff if not more stiff than the SE spring in my Road King. Just something to file away, if you find it's a bit stiff, try the black spring.

https://americanprimemfginc.com/product/diaphragm-spring-silver-competition-2059-0003/
https://americanprimemfginc.com/product/black-diaphragm-spring-2059-0001/

-JW

Quote from: JW113 on July 25, 2023, 07:17:20 AMOK my bad. Yes, the silver one, the one that came in it, right? And yes, that one also says "competition". Check it out, you may be fine with it, buy to my hand the APM with silver spring felt as stiff if not more stiff than the SE spring in my Road King. Just something to file away, if you find it's a bit stiff, try the black spring.

https://americanprimemfginc.com/product/diaphragm-spring-silver-competition-2059-0003/
https://americanprimemfginc.com/product/black-diaphragm-spring-2059-0001/

-JW

Will do. Thanks.

Had a Rivera Pro behind my 93"er long enough to replace the steels and discs using APM last year. I wish my TC shifted anywhere near as smooth.