HarleyTechTalk

I purchased a 2021 SE camplate and oil pump system to go into my bike as it still has the stock 2017~2018 revision oil pump in it.
I do not plan on replacing the cam and doing a stage 2 upgrade at this time as I do not know what cam I want.
When buying the gasket I needed today at the dealership, one of the parts guys said that I should replace that inner cam bearing as well.
He said they replace it everytime they take a cam out because it gets pressed in and pulling the cam out and putting it back in can cause a re-used bearing to fail.
He continued by telling me that not replacing it, even though I'm not introducing a new cam, could mean It could fail and I'd be looking at a potential engine failure.

Is he right? That I need to get a new cam bearing and the tools to replace it if I'm not doing a stage 2, and all I'm doing is replacing the oilpump and cam?
Or is he being paranoid(or worse potentially trying to get me to buy more stuff?)?

I don't recall in any video, thread, or literature about the oilpump replacement install telling the mechanic to replace the cam bearing. The cam bearing replacement was always mentioned in a stage 2 upgrade process.

I'm still analyzing how I'm riding and making choices on exhaust and at this time don't really know which cam I'm thinking of going with. So I was going to hold off replacing the bearing until I've figured out which cam I want and will replace it when I go in and replace the cam.

I'd replace the bearing. Ymmv

You're going to need the tools anyway, eventually.

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2022, 09:00:33 PMYou're going to need the tools anyway, eventually.

Yeap but I'm planning on doing all that stuff when I determine the cam choice and will drop a combined order on Fuelmoto for it all.

All I'm doing right now is just replacing the oil pump and camplate so I can just get that old ass pump out.
I'm sticking with stage 1 for a while, and gonna wait for certain milestones to pass before I settle on a cam. Going to ask fuelmoto for their advice, and here, as well as other HD riders for opinions before I buy anything for stage 2.
It's just a pump and plate replacement job.

All I'm needing to know is if I have to replace that bearing in there when I swap the camplate and pump to the new one, that's all I'm worried about.

Two rules of HD when in the cam chest.
Replace the tensioner(s), they're cheap
Replace the cam bearing(s) they're cheap

And these two items, mainly the cam bearings can cause a really bad day if one decides to shift 1 roller and derail them all.

 I would wait until you decide on what cam you going to use. The less times you take it apart the better of you are. As far as the cam bearing goes I haven't seen any fail yet, but if you going in there you should replace it, also the less times you press it in and out the better it is.

Quote from: Buglet on January 22, 2022, 06:04:48 AMI would wait until you decide on what cam you going to use. The less times you take it apart the better of you are. As far as the cam bearing goes I haven't seen any fail yet, but if you going in there you should replace it, also the less times you press it in and out the better it is.

I have not seen an inner cam bearing failure in an M8 YET but I'm sure they're coming. Ever since the facory introduced the half complement bearing in the late Shovelhead years, I have seen and repaired a lot of those failures. They aren't pretty and the collateral damage is expensive.

Quote from: FranBunnyFFXII on January 21, 2022, 10:17:40 PM

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2022, 09:00:33 PMYou're going to need the tools anyway, eventually.

Yeap but I'm planning on doing all that stuff when I determine the cam choice and will drop a combined order on Fuelmoto for it all.

All I'm doing right now is just replacing the oil pump and camplate so I can just get that old ass pump out.
I'm sticking with stage 1 for a while, and gonna wait for certain milestones to pass before I settle on a cam. Going to ask fuelmoto for their advice, and here, as well as other HD riders for opinions before I buy anything for stage 2.
It's just a pump and plate replacement job.

All I'm needing to know is if I have to replace that bearing in there when I swap the camplate and pump to the new one, that's all I'm worried about.

Well so far 5 for 5 in responses.  Make mine #6.  I think your getting your answer.  Starting a statement with yeah but means you haven't heard what you wanted to hear.   To be fair, you asked if you "need to" change the bearing.  That will always be your decision.  All the responses are "recommendations" based on experience.

   For what's it worth Harley started went to half complement bearings in the early 90's with the EVO's

Quote from: kd on January 22, 2022, 07:43:58 AM

Quote from: FranBunnyFFXII on January 21, 2022, 10:17:40 PM

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2022, 09:00:33 PMYou're going to need the tools anyway, eventually.

Yeap but I'm planning on doing all that stuff when I determine the cam choice and will drop a combined order on Fuelmoto for it all.

All I'm doing right now is just replacing the oil pump and camplate so I can just get that old ass pump out.
I'm sticking with stage 1 for a while, and gonna wait for certain milestones to pass before I settle on a cam. Going to ask fuelmoto for their advice, and here, as well as other HD riders for opinions before I buy anything for stage 2.
It's just a pump and plate replacement job.

All I'm needing to know is if I have to replace that bearing in there when I swap the camplate and pump to the new one, that's all I'm worried about.

Well so far 5 for 5 in responses.  Make mine #6.  I think your getting your answer.  Starting a statement with yeah but means you haven't heard what you wanted to hear.  To be fair, you asked if you "need to" change the bearing.  That will always be your decision.  All the responses are "recommendations" based on experience.

It's not that I haven't heard what I want to hear, it's that the recommendations coming in are based on OTHER conditions, and the question I'm waiting to see answered hasn't actually been answered yet.

I'm looking for an answer to the question "Will pulling a camshaft out and putting it back ruin a stock cam bearing?"
I still don't have an answer to this.
Does it damage the bearing? If so, would I have to replace the upgraded bearing again when I do get my stage 2 cam?
If not, why does the stock bearing get damaged and need to be replaced, but the upgraded bearing not?

It's like a line of code, a program is looking for a certain parameter to be fullfilled before it can move on, and the inputs are skipping the original condition.

I will drop an order for a cam bearing replacement and replacement tool, and a depth gage, but I still want to know if the parts guy was just fear mongering, trying to get me to buy more stuff at their parts desk, or if it's a problem that people here have seen actually popup because someone pulled a stock cam and put it back and their bearing blew up and "Potty mouth"ked their whole riding season up.

I replaced the compensator ramp in my bike with an an upgraded version on the notion that not all of them blow up, but there are ones that do even on a practically stock bike, and lots of people with stage 2 bikes are replacing their comps with the Man O War, or a forged unit. And TTS performance released an entire video of their primary drive upgrades that they do to handle a supercharger. And the compensator was the weakest point of failure they deal with.

So there in lies the question I need answered. Does pulling a cam out require you to replace a the cam bearing because of a condition that removing the cam causes? If so, what is the issue?

I already know the solution and have it in hand, and will be getting the stuff I need to execute upon it. But I still need the original inquiry answered.

Make sense?

Makes sense.
No, you do not need to change the cam bearing. No, it will not be ruined by removing and re-installing the cam.
It is standard practice, but not necessary. It will most likely be just fine.
Will you worry about having the old bearing in there? Only you can answer that question.

Yes, it does make sense.  Hoss offers up the Coles notes version.  The parts guy is probably going off conversations more than real life hands on experience and giving you the option to decide the level of risk you feel like carrying. I would think Buglet kind of covers it.  There are better bearings available and any opportunity to upgrade it probably shouldn't be missed,  As said, the bearing is inexpensive and offers a known higher level of safety.  We are always changing things up for something better that offers more value.  Shoulda, woulda, coulda, is something we say when it's too late to go back.

Quote from: Hossamania on January 22, 2022, 08:58:46 AMMakes sense.
No, you do not need to change the cam bearing. No, it will not be ruined by removing and re-installing the cam.
It is standard practice, but not necessary. It will most likely be just fine.
Will you worry about having the old bearing in there? Only you can answer that question.

Thanks.
That being said, to answer your question. I was thinking that if it's just a stock cam, and the bike is only stage 1, there doesn't seem to be all that much risk to keeping the stock bearing in there for another 1~2K miles while I figure out what cam I want and see where I'm wanting power and how I'm riding.
But if I'm wrong, and keeping it in there with a stage1 bike is legitimately unsafe, and too risky please let me know.
Right now the objective is simply to swap the 2017 OEM pump that's in the bike now with the 2021 pump I ordered to replace it.

It WILL be changed along with the cam upgrade, once I've decided on the cam.

Right now I've got just over 900miles on the bike with not enough time on the freeway and backroads to give myself a good picture of where I'm running the bike.

I'm wanting to get some warm weather riding experience in on the bike with some twisty roads, and traveling miles in so that I can get a better idea of what cam to get.
I got the bike in October, I've not had any warm, dry days to ride in yet that let me do more than just commute.

Quote from: FranBunnyFFXII on January 22, 2022, 09:31:36 AM

Quote from: Hossamania on January 22, 2022, 08:58:46 AMMakes sense.
No, you do not need to change the cam bearing. No, it will not be ruined by removing and re-installing the cam.
It is standard practice, but not necessary. It will most likely be just fine.
Will you worry about having the old bearing in there? Only you can answer that question.

Thanks.
That being said, to answer your question. I was thinking that if it's just a stock cam, and the bike is only stage 1, there doesn't seem to be all that much risk to keeping the stock bearing in there for another 1~2K miles while I figure out what cam I want and see where I'm wanting power and how I'm riding.
But if I'm wrong, and keeping it in there with a stage1 bike is legitimately unsafe, and too risky please let me know.
Right now the objective is simply to swap the 2017 OEM pump that's in the bike now with the 2021 pump I ordered to replace it.

It WILL be changed along with the cam upgrade, once I've decided on the cam.

Right now I've got just over 900miles on the bike with not enough time on the freeway and backroads to give myself a good picture of where I'm running the bike.

I'm wanting to get some warm weather riding experience in on the bike with some twisty roads, and traveling miles in so that I can get a better idea of what cam to get.
I got the bike in October, I've not had any warm, dry days to ride in yet that let me do more than just commute.

Well there you go.  The more information that comes out the easier it is to understand your thought process.   Is the 900 miles total miles on the bike or just the miles you have put on?  Can the oil pump wait for that 1-2K miles?

Quote from: kd on January 22, 2022, 10:04:08 AM

Quote from: FranBunnyFFXII on January 22, 2022, 09:31:36 AM

Quote from: Hossamania on January 22, 2022, 08:58:46 AMMakes sense.
No, you do not need to change the cam bearing. No, it will not be ruined by removing and re-installing the cam.
It is standard practice, but not necessary. It will most likely be just fine.
Will you worry about having the old bearing in there? Only you can answer that question.

Thanks.
That being said, to answer your question. I was thinking that if it's just a stock cam, and the bike is only stage 1, there doesn't seem to be all that much risk to keeping the stock bearing in there for another 1~2K miles while I figure out what cam I want and see where I'm wanting power and how I'm riding.
But if I'm wrong, and keeping it in there with a stage1 bike is legitimately unsafe, and too risky please let me know.
Right now the objective is simply to swap the 2017 OEM pump that's in the bike now with the 2021 pump I ordered to replace it.

It WILL be changed along with the cam upgrade, once I've decided on the cam.

Right now I've got just over 900miles on the bike with not enough time on the freeway and backroads to give myself a good picture of where I'm running the bike.

I'm wanting to get some warm weather riding experience in on the bike with some twisty roads, and traveling miles in so that I can get a better idea of what cam to get.
I got the bike in October, I've not had any warm, dry days to ride in yet that let me do more than just commute.

Well there you go.  The more information that comes out the easier it is to understand your thought process.  Is the 900 miles total miles on the bike or just the miles you have put on?  Can the oil pump wait for that 1-2K miles?

900 miles for me personally, 4800-ish on the odo.
I'm doing the pump for a few reasons, but im putting it in as a 5000 mile sorta thing.
I do not like having the original 2017 production year pump in there. It's received 2 updates since then, and now an SE version released for performance builds. So I grabbed the SE one in preparation for the fact that I want to do stage 2 later.
I'm thinking around 7000ish miles on the ODO i'll do a stage 1. That number is not concrete.

If the current oil pump isn't sumping or giving problems I would wait until you decide on a cam and do it all at once.  The less you open up that engine the better. Doing everything piecemeal just opens the door for problems.  Bob

Quote from: FXDBI on January 22, 2022, 12:55:18 PMIf the current oil pump isn't sumping or giving problems I would wait until you decide on a cam and do it all at once.  The less you open up that engine the better. Doing everything piecemeal just opens the door for problems.  Bob

Plus one on this!!!!

Quote from: sandrooney on January 22, 2022, 01:06:19 PM

Quote from: FXDBI on January 22, 2022, 12:55:18 PMIf the current oil pump isn't sumping or giving problems I would wait until you decide on a cam and do it all at once.  The less you open up that engine the better. Doing everything piecemeal just opens the door for problems.  Bob

Plus one on this!!!!

Make that a plus two. If it's not sumping and giving good pressure, run it a couple thousand miles, hopefully you'll have figured out your cam situation, and do everything then.

Come on, are you a mechanic or a mouse?   

Quote from: Ohio HD on January 22, 2022, 04:53:31 PMCome on, are you a mechanic or a mouse?   

 

Quote from: FXDBI on January 22, 2022, 12:55:18 PMIf the current oil pump isn't sumping or giving problems I would wait until you decide on a cam and do it all at once.  The less you open up that engine the better. Doing everything piecemeal just opens the door for problems.  Bob

You know what... Now that you mention this, I think this may be what will be my determining factor.
Someone taught me how to do a sumping check on my bike really easily in a way that I can actually handle doing it with my current living situation.

I'll do that check after I do my bike's 5000 mile oil change, which I am doing tomorrow.

If the bike is letting excessive oil pool up in the case, ill drop the new oil pump in ASAP. If it's bone dry or a tiny amount of oil comes out of that crank sensor hole, I'll hold off on the pump setup for my stage 2 build.
I have a bunch of extra "Potty mouth" to drop into that bike for stage 2, more than just a cam and oilpump update.

If you do a search here you'll find a lot of info on sumping and checking the crankcase, I'm not sure exactly but take it for a ride to get it warm, then let it idle for a minute before shutting down, pull the crankcase plug, should get about 6 to 8 ounces. Near as I can remeber.

Quote from: FranBunnyFFXII on January 21, 2022, 10:17:40 PM

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2022, 09:00:33 PMYou're going to need the tools anyway, eventually.

Yeap but I'm planning on doing all that stuff when I determine the cam choice and will drop a combined order on Fuelmoto for it all.

All I'm doing right now is just replacing the oil pump and camplate so I can just get that old ass pump out.
I'm sticking with stage 1 for a while, and gonna wait for certain milestones to pass before I settle on a cam. Going to ask fuelmoto for their advice, and here, as well as other HD riders for opinions before I buy anything for stage 2.
It's just a pump and plate replacement job.

All I'm needing to know is if I have to replace that bearing in there when I swap the camplate and pump to the new one, that's all I'm worried about.

If its an M8 ,there are no spring tensioners. Just 1 hydraulic shoe tensioner that will probably never wear out. For the stock cam,the bearing is probably fine. If you upgrade your cam, I would swap it out.

Anyone say just leave it be until you do the cam? 

Quote from: cheech on January 25, 2022, 07:05:03 AMAnyone say just leave it be until you do the cam? 

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