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aim-tamachi SLAVE CYLINDER

Started by FSG, September 27, 2018, 11:51:58 AM

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FSG

for the M8 but ........

what will it do for the Trannie to Primary Oil Transfer ??????????????????

https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/light-force-slave-cylinder


Nastytls

Never really thought the stock pull was stiff, so 40% less would make it feel like you're pulling on air.

turboprop

That 40% reduction in lever pull comes with a reduction in plate travel as well. No free lunch. I wonder if this affects plate disengagement enough to make finding neutral more difficult.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

BigT

September 27, 2018, 12:50:10 PM #3 Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:15:43 PM by FSG
Quote from: turboprop on September 27, 2018, 12:36:08 PM
That 40% reduction in lever pull comes with a reduction in plate travel as well. No free lunch. I wonder if this affects plate disengagement enough to make finding neutral more difficult.

Where did you see anything on reduction of plate travel?

PoorUB

Quote from: BigT on September 27, 2018, 12:50:10 PM
Where did you see anything on reduction of plate travel?

There is no free lunch in hydraulics. If you reduce force by 40% it has to be with a larger slave piston. Larger piston, less travel.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

turboprop

September 27, 2018, 02:30:43 PM #5 Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:16:22 PM by FSG
Quote from: BigT on September 27, 2018, 12:50:10 PM
Quote from: turboprop on September 27, 2018, 12:36:08 PM
That 40% reduction in lever pull comes with a reduction in plate travel as well. No free lunch. I wonder if this affects plate disengagement enough to make finding neutral more difficult.

Where did you see anything on reduction of plate travel?

Ok, how do you think the reduced lever pull was realized while maintaining the same plate travel?
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

calif phil

There is a huge need for this product.  I think they will sell good. 

BigT

September 27, 2018, 04:43:40 PM #7 Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 02:16:45 PM by FSG
Quote from: turboprop on September 27, 2018, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: BigT on September 27, 2018, 12:50:10 PM
Quote from: turboprop on September 27, 2018, 12:36:08 PM
That 40% reduction in lever pull comes with a reduction in plate travel as well. No free lunch. I wonder if this affects plate disengagement enough to make finding neutral more difficult.

Where did you see anything on reduction of plate travel?

Ok, how do you think the reduced lever pull was realized while maintaining the same plate travel?

Just asking. Im not a hydraulic expert.

richbiker

Talked to Aim and they know nothing about the fluid transfer but say it will also help with the late engagement that some complain about.
Spence
If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room!!

Don D

Someone needs to ask about reduced throw. What turboprop suggests is valid and a concern

rbabos

No need to ask. It's common sense. At any time a certain size master piston moves x amount of travel, the slave will reduce in travel if the od is increased. It will also develop more force within that travel, showing up as a reduced force needed at the master piston. You can't have both with hydraulics.
Ron

FSG

What is the throw on a M8 to start with?

turboprop

Quote from: rbabos on September 29, 2018, 09:44:16 AM
No need to ask. It's common sense. At any time a certain size master piston moves x amount of travel, the slave will reduce in travel if the od is increased. It will also develop more force within that travel, showing up as a reduced force needed at the master piston. You can't have both with hydraulics.
Ron

Same thing applies to cable actuation. All those easy-pull things reduce lever effort by my increasing the Ma, resulting in reduced movement at the clutch hat. Again, no free munch.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

kd

Quote from: FSG on September 29, 2018, 06:04:57 PM
What is the throw on a M8 to start with?


This may be the equalizer.  If the travel is long enough there may be room for a reduction. 

Anything around that .070 is usually golden. I have run about +.055ish by using a fine focused adjustment.
KD

PFWiz

The clutch engagement on my bike is very short. From clutch fully engaged to fully disengaged is only about .75" and it is all at the end (open) side. This makes it very hard for me smoothly use the clutch especially when the bike is cold.
I am planning to install one of these this winter....

Prostock

Correct me if I am wrong.  It appears that it does not use the stock cover :scratch:

hogsty

Website says
QuoteInstalls behind the factory transmission end cover.

joe_lyons

Another option for earlier clutch engagement is to run the new 2019 dampner spring seat that is 2mm compared to the 1.6mm of the previous. Pn is 37000295.
Powerhouse Cycle & Dyno - Performance is our passion 816-425-4901

jmbittner

For those that are interested in some quantitative info, I performed some before and after
measurements. Using a hunting scale, it took 14 lbs of force, in stock form, to pull the end
of the lever to the handlebar. With The AIM cylinder it only took 8 lbs of force.

I started the bike up and the clutch does disengage fully and neutral can be found easily.

As for the engagement point, the stock setup started engaging with the lever 2.25 inches from
the handlebar. With the AIM cylinder the engagement point was 1 inch from the handlebar.
This made it a lot more comfortable having all fingers wrapped around the lever. It resembled
the engagement point of the old cable clutch setups. It also seemed to engage a lot more
gradual.

After going for a short test ride today, all I can say is WOW! This is a triple win.
Not only is the clever force really nice and easy, the friction zone is wider
making it a lot easier to modulate, and also the clunking feedback in the lever
from the transmission is essentially gone during a shift. ​​​​​​​​​​​​

BigT

Do you happen to work for Aim-Tamachi?

jmbittner

Quote from: BigT on November 07, 2018, 06:12:36 PM
Do you happen to work for Aim-Tamachi?

Not a chance, I'm retired.

But I've been disappointed by the clutch on my 2017 Limited to the point where I've been wanting
to retrofit it to a cable setup. Now I will be able to live with it having the AIM.

CarlosGGodfrog

I wonder if the aim-tamachi SLAVE CYLINDER could be retrofitted to an earlier TC transmission side cover.

50Panhead

Quote from: PoorUB on September 27, 2018, 01:51:04 PM
Quote from: BigT on September 27, 2018, 12:50:10 PM
Where did you see anything on reduction of plate travel?

There is no free lunch in hydraulics. If you reduce force by 40% it has to be with a larger slave piston. Larger piston, less travel.

Correct... and they state just that in other words. This will also bring your clutch engagement point closer to the grip, giving you easier clutch modulation and better engagement Clutch disengagement will change. Possibly to the point where it may "Clunk" harder when start up and drop it into gear.
What Do You Care What Other People Think

hogsty

If the plates separate enough to not cause any drag, the closer disengagement and wider friction zone sounds like it's worth the time and money. 

cbumdumb

My 19 starts engaging about a half inch away from grip probally needs adjustment

PoorUB

Quote from: cbumdumb on November 08, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
My 19 starts engaging about a half inch away from grip probally needs adjustment

No adjustment on a hydraulic clutch.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

PoorUB

Quote from: CarlosGGodfrog on November 08, 2018, 05:13:03 AM
I wonder if the aim-tamachi SLAVE CYLINDER could be retrofitted to an earlier TC transmission side cover.

I looked at this quick. The bearing plate is the same, so it should bolt up. The cover and actuator are different. :idunno:
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

CarlosGGodfrog

The Hyd clutch cover that is HD, but from a later model, that is on my 2000 Heritage has a 40 mm piston.

jmbittner

Quote from: cbumdumb on November 08, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
My 19 starts engaging about a half inch away from grip probally needs adjustment
That is because the 19's come with a different clutch damper seat and it moves the friction
zone closer to the grip.

2017/18 bikes came with damper seat part number: 37000036. 2019 bikes came with a new damper seat part number : 37000295 ($12.60).

hogsty

Quote from: jmbittner on November 08, 2018, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: cbumdumb on November 08, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
My 19 starts engaging about a half inch away from grip probally needs adjustment
That is because the 19's come with a different clutch damper seat and it moves the friction
zone closer to the grip.

2017/18 bikes came with damper seat part number: 37000036. 2019 bikes came with a new damper seat part number : 37000295 ($12.60).

My 2019 Limited has a microscopic sized friction zone and disengages about as far from the bar as could be possible. 

msnyder

    This may be a first!      NO they all don,t do that!   I have a 2019 RGU. and It engages early and has a much better "feel" than the 2017 I had before.  If I still had the 2017 I would be looking into the New spacer first and then the Aim light force.  Max

BigT

I have one coming on Tuesday to try it with my Bandit clutch.

02rk4cruzin

A friend of mine just rode down to AIM in Huntington Beach last week and they installed the Clutch Slave as well as a VPC in his 2018 Roadglide. He says it is easier to pull as well as moves the engagement out more.

He wishes he had done this when he first bought the bike.

He would rather buy the AIM slave versus having HD do the recall.

rigidthumper

Quote from: 02rk4cruzin on November 20, 2018, 03:18:50 PM
A friend of mine just rode down to AIM in Huntington Beach last week and they installed the Clutch Slave as well as a VPC in his 2018 Roadglide. He says it is easier to pull as well as moves the engagement out more.

He wishes he had done this when he first bought the bike.

He would rather buy the AIM slave versus having HD do the recall.

He should take the replaced piece back to his dealer, and have them perform the recall on the original slave cylinder, stick it in a zip lock bag, and keep it with the bike. They get paid for doing the recall, his bike gets on the "completed" list, and he can transfer the recalled/updated slave cylinder with the bike if he ever trades/sells it.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

FSG


Timber0472

I installed the AIM slave cylinder about 3 wks ago. Worth every penny. Super light clutch pull, engages closer to the bar like my twinkie did, and the friction Zone is wider. Love it! Oh and it does use the stock cover. Installation was pretty simple. PITA to bleed but other than that works great.

BigT

Quote from: BigT on November 09, 2018, 04:13:19 PM
I have one coming on Tuesday to try it with my Bandit clutch.

Installed the Aim slave cylinder with my Bandit clutch. Nice easy pull but  unfortunately not enough throw to find neural with bike running.

Thermodyne

I just put a AIM cylinder in mine this afternoon.  The pull effort is greatly reduced.  Its a little harsh on a n-1 shift, but is still easy to shift back into neutral.  And the fluid in the primary is cold. 


Didn't ride it yet, but the friction zone seems to start about 1 inch from full pull.  Hugely better than the oem setup. 

Prostar

Has anyone put the AIM Slave Cylinder in a 2019?

Maddo Snr

Quote from: cbumdumb on November 08, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
My 19 starts engaging about a half inch away from grip probally needs adjustment

There is NO adjustment facility in the OEM setup.

A 2019 clutch is fully disengaged before the lever is 1/2 way to the bar. There's plenty of travel left over to accommodate the AIM product. Mine is on it's way...
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Thermodyne

I managed to get a few hundred miles on the LightForce before winter closed in.  The much lighter lever feel is great, and it give added feel to the friction zone.

The location of the friction zone is a bit of a moving target.  With repeated use, it tend to work back out to the very end of the lever travel.  I suspect this is the clutch trying to adjust to zero lash/maximum travel. 

I have the revised dampener spring that I will install at the 1000 mile service, once the weather ever lets up and I get another 300 miles on it.  And hopfully that will address the friction zone location. 

Heinz

Quote from: jmbittner on November 08, 2018, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: cbumdumb on November 08, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
My 19 starts engaging about a half inch away from grip probally needs adjustment
That is because the 19's come with a different clutch damper seat and it moves the friction
zone closer to the grip.

2017/18 bikes came with damper seat part number: 37000036. 2019 bikes came with a new damper seat part number : 37000295 ($12.60).

Does anyone know if these newer damper seats are the same diameter as the models from the 2007-2013 hydraulic clutch models? In other words will these damper seats fit the clutch hub of the earlier models?

Nastytls

I'm just wondering; for the guys that think the clutch pull is heavy, what size are your hands? Do you wear a s/m/l/xl/xxl glove? I just can't wrap my head around the need for this device, the clutch pull is not even a little bit stiff on my 18 RG.

PoorUB

Quote from: Nastytls on February 08, 2019, 03:20:36 PM
I'm just wondering; for the guys that think the clutch pull is heavy, what size are your hands? Do you wear a s/m/l/xl/xxl glove? I just can't wrap my head around the need for this device, the clutch pull is not even a little bit stiff on my 18 RG.

Compared to the stock clutch on my '05 the clutch on my 2016 Limited is a breeze. But then hop on my BMW R1200RT and the clutch pull on the Beemer makes my Limited look ridiculous!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Nastytls

The clutch on my BMW is very light but the Harley's is too, exactly what I would expect from a touring bike; low effort.

cbumdumb

Quote from: hogsty on November 08, 2018, 09:23:21 PM
Quote from: jmbittner on November 08, 2018, 03:18:35 PM
Quote from: cbumdumb on November 08, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
My 19 starts engaging about a half inch away from grip probally needs adjustment
That is because the 19's come with a different clutch damper seat and it moves the friction
zone closer to the grip.

2017/18 bikes came with damper seat part number: 37000036. 2019 bikes came with a new damper seat part number : 37000295 ($12.60).

My 2019 Limited has a microscopic sized friction zone and disengages about as far from the bar as could be possible.


Mine failed last week blew the seal out the actuator dealer had parts but hd corp said no relace whole actuator .I got to admit it has much better feel now and no more first gear grind on cold mornings that I tried to get them to fix earlier

MakoHD

I have the aim set up on my bike and my fathers bike. What made us get them it was that our clutch was way too hard because we have the aim lock up with the heavy springs and 2 washers for each spring. it was too hard and uncomfortable for traffic conditions. Now with the aim set up its softer then a stock bike. I could only imagine how soft it would feel on a stock bike.

HDDOC

Has anyone put the AIM Slave Cylinder in a 2019?
2019 Tri Glide

92flhtcu

I have several dealers that have installed on 2019's, however, no miles yet. they all are happy with the reduced effort.
Need a bigger garage

MakoHD

Yes I have, on my personal bike that's the example I posted.

HDDOC

I will have to order one, My hands are not good even with the lighter pull of the 2019.   Thanks
2019 Tri Glide

HDDOC

Quote from: MakoHD on March 07, 2019, 08:30:23 PM
Yes I have, on my personal bike that's the example I posted.

Did you have to remove the exhaust for install   ?   Thanks I am on a Tri Glide
2019 Tri Glide

MakoHD

Well on mine I did it while I was replacing the transmission, but on my fathers bike I have a D&D pipe and I had to loosen in up and pull it back to be able to do it.

calif phil

Quote from: HDDOC on March 08, 2019, 05:17:06 AM
I will have to order one, My hands are not good even with the lighter pull of the 2019.   Thanks

I have been selling quite a few of the PSR levers. you can adjust them so the lever reach is not as far.  It's a great option for people with hand issues. 

Maddo Snr

Quote from: HDDOC on March 09, 2019, 03:41:38 AM
Quote from: MakoHD on March 07, 2019, 08:30:23 PM
Yes I have, on my personal bike that's the example I posted.

Did you have to remove the exhaust for install   ?   Thanks I am on a Tri Glide

Mufflers need to come off. Header just needs loosening.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Maddo Snr

Quote from: FSG on September 27, 2018, 11:51:58 AM
for the M8 but ........

what will it do for the Trannie to Primary Oil Transfer ??????????????????

https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/light-force-slave-cylinder



Funny, no-one replied to FSGs original post.  :hyst:

Gaz, I had a AIM cylinder turn up this week and did a few tests. The design of the AIM S/C is completely different to the OEM job. Where the OEM job tries to seal around the area where the venting occurs, the AIM piston has no sealing whatsoever around the spigot which pushes the clutch actuator rod.

As the OEM piston pushes the rod it forces the seal tightly around the mating surfaces, as the AIM spigot pushes the rod it does the exact opposite and opens up the oil/air bleed paths in that area.

I fitted the AIM kit to a bike (known transferrer) this week (plus the milled oil path and an extra bleed hole between S/C casting faces). Owner does a lot of miles, we'll see how it goes.
.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

PoorUB

I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Maddo Snr

Quote from: PoorUB on March 09, 2019, 01:54:48 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 09, 2019, 01:45:07 PM
Funny, no-one replied to FSGs original post.  :hyst:

Read post 8

FSG: "what will it do for gearbox-primary transfer?"
AIM: "we are unaware of the issue"

Hardly addresses FSGs question...

AIMs reply is straight out of the MoCos playbook. AIMs would've done their testing you'd think, they're hardly going to spruik a cure and then get their butts sued off when it doesn't cure a rogue bike.  :nix:
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

HDDOC

Quote from: calif phil on March 09, 2019, 10:09:50 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on March 08, 2019, 05:17:06 AM
I will have to order one, My hands are not good even with the lighter pull of the 2019.   Thanks

I have been selling quite a few of the PSR levers. you can adjust them so the lever reach is not as far.  It's a great option for people with hand issues.


I had the Oberion Lever on my 2017 Tri Glide and it worked well , I want a lighter pull when I get caught in traffic , the hog lever did little for that.  Thanks
2019 Tri Glide

Bigs

The AIM is a lot easier to pull in the clutch than stock but what I like most about it is the friction zone - a lot greater than stock. I have it on a 17' RK.
   Bigs

oldbag

this thing is great! it makes a huge difference...I am starting to like this bike...
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

Ken R

For those of us that actually use our clutches for  more than gear changing, I'm looking forward to receiving my AIM slave cylinder.  Mine is on order from California Phil. 
I do a lot of parking lot practice and skills competition.  Wide friction zone and easier pull are almost mandatory.  IMO, HD took a step backwards to about 2004 with their hard-to-pull-and-hold hydraulic clutches.  Women hate them!  Remember when the "Easy Clutch" came out?  Harley recognized that women actually ride their own bikes.  So the came out with new ramps and springs to make the clutches manageable by women.  They traded reduced clutch effort for reduced plate separation.  And no one complained that I know of. 


Thermodyne

The light force cylinder does as advertised, it makes the clutch pull light.  But it leaves the friction zone a little far out and narrow.

This is your fix for that



Best $10 you'll ever spend on an M8 clutch.  Moves the friction zone in towards the grip and makes it two or three times as wide.   Its just a few thousands thicker than what's in there from the factory, but it makes a world of difference.

Its oem on the 19's so only the 17 and 18's can make use of it.  But its well worth the $10 bucks and hours worth of your time it takes to install. 

stro1965

I installed another new spring seat last night, this time for my buddy on his '18 Street Glide. Took less than 45 minutes and he's super happy with the change.

To The Max

Just put one on my mates 17 sg cvo and he loves it silky smooth better control and no difference when dropping it into gear hot or cold  :SM:  :up:

Nastytls

Quote from: Thermodyne on April 26, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
The light force cylinder does as advertised, it makes the clutch pull light.  But it leaves the friction zone a little far out and narrow.

This is your fix for that



Best $10 you'll ever spend on an M8 clutch.  Moves the friction zone in towards the grip and makes it two or three times as wide.   Its just a few thousands thicker than what's in there from the factory, but it makes a world of difference.

Its oem on the 19's so only the 17 and 18's can make use of it.  But its well worth the $10 bucks and hours worth of your time it takes to install.

What is that and how does it change the friction location of the clutch?

Thermodyne

Quote from: Nastytls on April 28, 2019, 03:06:23 AM
Quote from: Thermodyne on April 26, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
The light force cylinder does as advertised, it makes the clutch pull light.  But it leaves the friction zone a little far out and narrow.

This is your fix for that



Best $10 you'll ever spend on an M8 clutch.  Moves the friction zone in towards the grip and makes it two or three times as wide.   Its just a few thousands thicker than what's in there from the factory, but it makes a world of difference.

Its oem on the 19's so only the 17 and 18's can make use of it.  But its well worth the $10 bucks and hours worth of your time it takes to install.

What is that and how does it change the friction location of the clutch?

Its the shim/spacer/seat that sits under the damper spring.  And it moves the damper spring a little higher in the stack to create more preload  (to the left sitting on the scooter)  I would speculate that the spring was not fully compressed with the original spacer.  What we call friction zone, is that little spring creating some load on the plates.  So a wider zone would indicate that there was a greater amount of load being applied.

The MoCo added these to the clutch on the 19's.  But didn't make it widely known.

FSG

this pic will give you an idea as to where it sits


Thermodyne

Its the first piece that slides in over the hub


Ken R

April 30, 2019, 03:54:21 PM #69 Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 04:44:13 PM by Ken R
OK.  As a motorcycle skills competitor, I hated to give up my tried and true cable clutch with VPC and Mueller when I purchased the 2019 FLHTK.  But I wanted a new motorcycle, not so for competition but for the long distance camping trip touring I do every year.  So I now have a 2019.  I must admit that I've owned it for 5 weeks and have only ridden it from my front driveway to my rear driveway (around the block).  That's because I stripped it down for painting and it's taking time to get it dressed again.  It's still naked in my workshop on the table lift.

In tight coned patterns, clutch control is quite important.  Every pattern and every competition course is ridden mostly in the friction zone.   The stock hydraulic clutch friction zone is extremely narrow in addition to requiring over 14 pounds of pull at the lever ball tip to squeeze.  And unlike a cable clutch, a hydraulic clutch pushes back at 100% effort all the time.  The inherent friction of a cable clutch helps one's hand to hold a steady clutch and also to keep to squeezed while stopped.  Girls hate hydraulic clutches because of the effort to keep them squeezed at traffic lights.  Some must use 2 hands!     I was concerned that my motorcop/Civilian skills competition days might be over.  Would I ever master the hydraulic clutch?  Most competitors hated them and cursed the change.

But maybe not!  Maybe an AIM Slave assembly would help.
I bought an AIM Slave Cylinder from California Phil's.  (I buy almost all my aftermarket stuff from Phil and recommend him and his business highly.). 
Yesterday, I installed it.  (even though I am still waiting for the painted parts) 

The hardest part is getting the exhaust out of the way.  But it doesn't have to be completely removed.  Right side floorboard out of the way, heat shields off, removed the rear exhaust flange nuts from the studs and loosened the front ones.  Removed the transmission mounting nut and right-side muffler.  Loosened the crossover exhaust clamp and the exhaust moved just far enough to get the decorative cover off the transmission to expose the slave cylinder.

Only 3 bolts hold the slave cylinder onto the transmission side plate.  Remove those and the entire slave cylinder assembly with hydraulic hose still attached can be removed between the engine and frame rails.  This is good because I didn't want to drip any DOT4 on the frame or other parts if disconnection of the hydraulic line was required first.   With the hydraulic slave separate from the motorcycle, I could detach the hydraulic line and quickly attach it to the AIM assembly.  Hardly a drop dripped and none touched the motorcycle. 

Reinstallation of the AIM slave cylinder is easy and quick with the three mounting screws.  No adjustment necessary.

Then, I began to bleed the hydraulics by pulling a vacuum with a horse syringe while keeping the master cylinder full.   It seemed to be the most reliable way to bleed. 
HOWEVER, I think I sucked a little too much fluid once causing air to enter at the master. DOH!   :oops:
Had to start all over, but first gently squeezing the clutch lever to see if I could get the suspected air expelled without vacuuming.    I wasn't satisfied, so I vacuumed again, paying more attention to keeping the reservoir full  this time. 

RESULTS:
OK.  Even though I didn't measure the clutch plate movement before changing the slave cylinder, I wanted to see what the movement was like afterwards.  Mounted my dial indicator and began testing. 
At first it was only .035".  The "squeeze" effort was only 7-8 pounds measured at the ball tip of the lever.   I squeezed and released about 50 times.  The friction zone moved farther away from the grip as I progressed At the same time, of course, the pressure plate movement increased to .045".  This is good.  I must have still had a tiny bit of air in the system.   It seemed to park at .045" after that. 

Another test was to see how long it would hold .045".  I clamped the lever to the grip overnight.  It held .045" for about 12  hours without any relaxation.   I removed the clamp.

Eight hours later, out of curiosity, I squeezed to the grip again.  Pressure plate only went to .035".   HMMMMM. 

I squeezed and relaxed about a hundred times at the rate of about one per second.  (My wrist is getting tired).  But by the time I finished, the pressure plate movement had increased to .062" !

Left it alone for an hour and squeezed again.  Still .062"!     I dunno, maybe there are still some tiny bubbles of air left in the line and they're rising/working their way to the master cylinder reservoir.   I'll let it rest a few more hours and test again. 

Since the slave is so much lower than the master, maybe the bubbles are rising in the hydraulic line quicker than I can suck the fluid out of the bleed spigot on the slave.  If that's the case, any remaining air should eventually rise to the master; effectively bleeding itself.  Won't it? :SM:

So that's where I am now.  Painter called and said I could pick up the motorcycles clothes (fenders, tank, tourpac, saddlebags, side covers, etc.) tomorrow.  I'm pretty excited about that. 
In the meantime, I'll keep playing with the clutch. 

Dmerch

I replaced the clutch cushion spring seat in my '19 RGS with the version for the '17/18 clutch. It's .015 thinner than the '19 spring seat. Moved the clutch lever away from the grip about double the amount it was before, feels much better.

Ken R

I hope you can report back on that.

Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 09, 2019, 01:45:07 PM
Quote from: FSG on September 27, 2018, 11:51:58 AM
for the M8 but ........

what will it do for the Trannie to Primary Oil Transfer ??????????????????

https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/light-force-slave-cylinder


Funny, no-one replied to FSGs original post.  :hyst:

Gaz, I had a AIM cylinder turn up this week and did a few tests. The design of the AIM S/C is completely different to the OEM job. Where the OEM job tries to seal around the area where the venting occurs, the AIM piston has no sealing whatsoever around the spigot which pushes the clutch actuator rod.

As the OEM piston pushes the rod it forces the seal tightly around the mating surfaces, as the AIM spigot pushes the rod it does the exact opposite and opens up the oil/air bleed paths in that area.

I fitted the AIM kit to a bike (known transferrer) this week (plus the milled oil path and an extra bleed hole between S/C casting faces). Owner does a lot of miles, we'll see how it goes.
.

ziggy24

I have a 2019 FLHXS and found that the clutch engagement was almost to the end of  the lever stroke. In other words, while sitting in traffic, my fingers where always almost extended trying to feather the clutch. Not sure about the 10$ spacer being installed at the factory, as mine was terrible. Short distance between engaged and dis-engaged and all the way out to engage the clutch.

I installed the AIM lite force and it made a world of difference! Engagement is closer to the bars and a whole lot lighter, to the point of, I thought I hadn't bled it enough! Neutral is not a problem and no clutch drag either.

And  FYI, it uses the stock cover, and yes on the stock head pipe, it needs to be moved out of the way to get the cover off.

stro1965

Quote from: Ken R on April 30, 2019, 03:54:21 PM
OK.  As a motorcycle skills competitor, I hated to give up my tried and true cable clutch with VPC and Mueller when I purchased the 2019 FLHTK.  But I wanted a new motorcycle, not so for competition but for the long distance camping trip touring I do every year.  So I now have a 2019.  I must admit that I've owned it for 5 weeks and have only ridden it from my front driveway to my rear driveway (around the block).  That's because I stripped it down for painting and it's taking time to get it dressed again.  It's still naked in my workshop on the table lift.

In tight coned patterns, clutch control is quite important.  Every pattern and every competition course is ridden mostly in the friction zone.   The stock hydraulic clutch friction zone is extremely narrow in addition to requiring over 14 pounds of pull at the lever ball tip to squeeze.  And unlike a cable clutch, a hydraulic clutch pushes back at 100% effort all the time.  The inherent friction of a cable clutch helps one's hand to hold a steady clutch and also to keep to squeezed while stopped.  Girls hate hydraulic clutches because of the effort to keep them squeezed at traffic lights.  Some must use 2 hands!     I was concerned that my motorcop/Civilian skills competition days might be over.  Would I ever master the hydraulic clutch?  Most competitors hated them and cursed the change.

But maybe not!  Maybe an AIM Slave assembly would help.
I bought an AIM Slave Cylinder from California Phil's.  (I buy almost all my aftermarket stuff from Phil and recommend him and his business highly.). 
Yesterday, I installed it.  (even though I am still waiting for the painted parts) 

The hardest part is getting the exhaust out of the way.  But it doesn't have to be completely removed.  Right side floorboard out of the way, heat shields off, removed the rear exhaust flange nuts from the studs and loosened the front ones.  Removed the transmission mounting nut and right-side muffler.  Loosened the crossover exhaust clamp and the exhaust moved just far enough to get the decorative cover off the transmission to expose the slave cylinder.

Only 3 bolts hold the slave cylinder onto the transmission side plate.  Remove those and the entire slave cylinder assembly with hydraulic hose still attached can be removed between the engine and frame rails.  This is good because I didn't want to drip any DOT4 on the frame or other parts if disconnection of the hydraulic line was required first.   With the hydraulic slave separate from the motorcycle, I could detach the hydraulic line and quickly attach it to the AIM assembly.  Hardly a drop dripped and none touched the motorcycle. 

Reinstallation of the AIM slave cylinder is easy and quick with the three mounting screws.  No adjustment necessary.

Then, I began to bleed the hydraulics by pulling a vacuum with a horse syringe while keeping the master cylinder full.   It seemed to be the most reliable way to bleed. 
HOWEVER, I think I sucked a little too much fluid once causing air to enter at the master. DOH!   :oops:
Had to start all over, but first gently squeezing the clutch lever to see if I could get the suspected air expelled without vacuuming.    I wasn't satisfied, so I vacuumed again, paying more attention to keeping the reservoir full  this time. 

RESULTS:
OK.  Even though I didn't measure the clutch plate movement before changing the slave cylinder, I wanted to see what the movement was like afterwards.  Mounted my dial indicator and began testing. 
At first it was only .035".  The "squeeze" effort was only 7-8 pounds measured at the ball tip of the lever.   I squeezed and released about 50 times.  The friction zone moved farther away from the grip as I progressed At the same time, of course, the pressure plate movement increased to .045".  This is good.  I must have still had a tiny bit of air in the system.   It seemed to park at .045" after that. 

Another test was to see how long it would hold .045".  I clamped the lever to the grip overnight.  It held .045" for about 12  hours without any relaxation.   I removed the clamp.

Eight hours later, out of curiosity, I squeezed to the grip again.  Pressure plate only went to .035".   HMMMMM. 

I squeezed and relaxed about a hundred times at the rate of about one per second.  (My wrist is getting tired).  But by the time I finished, the pressure plate movement had increased to .062" !

Left it alone for an hour and squeezed again.  Still .062"!     I dunno, maybe there are still some tiny bubbles of air left in the line and they're rising/working their way to the master cylinder reservoir.   I'll let it rest a few more hours and test again. 

Since the slave is so much lower than the master, maybe the bubbles are rising in the hydraulic line quicker than I can suck the fluid out of the bleed spigot on the slave.  If that's the case, any remaining air should eventually rise to the master; effectively bleeding itself.  Won't it? :SM:

So that's where I am now.  Painter called and said I could pick up the motorcycles clothes (fenders, tank, tourpac, saddlebags, side covers, etc.) tomorrow.  I'm pretty excited about that. 
In the meantime, I'll keep playing with the clutch.

Hey Ken, I forget which one of our mutual friends described the hydraulic clutch friction zone as a "moving target", but I agree with him completely. I know on mine, the hotter the clutch gets, the further off the grip until it engages. That said, I'm a convert and a believer and I don't miss my cable. 

Maddo Snr

May 09, 2019, 04:01:48 PM #74 Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 05:13:52 PM by FSG
Quote from: Ken R on May 01, 2019, 06:04:26 AM
I hope you can report back on that.

Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 09, 2019, 01:45:07 PM
Quote from: FSG on September 27, 2018, 11:51:58 AM
for the M8 but ........

what will it do for the Trannie to Primary Oil Transfer ??????????????????

https://aim-tamachi.com/collections/light-force-slave-cylinder


Funny, no-one replied to FSGs original post.  :hyst:

Gaz, I had a AIM cylinder turn up this week and did a few tests. The design of the AIM S/C is completely different to the OEM job. Where the OEM job tries to seal around the area where the venting occurs, the AIM piston has no sealing whatsoever around the spigot which pushes the clutch actuator rod.

As the OEM piston pushes the rod it forces the seal tightly around the mating surfaces, as the AIM spigot pushes the rod it does the exact opposite and opens up the oil/air bleed paths in that area.

I fitted the AIM kit to a bike (known transferrer) this week (plus the milled oil path and an extra bleed hole between S/C casting faces). Owner does a lot of miles, we'll see how it goes.
.

Ken, that bike came in for its 8000km service today.
The owner has been keeping an eye on primary oil height, it hasn't budged.

We have a package now that hasn't failed us yet:
80W140 in the box (just over bottom of dipstick range)
15W50 full-syn in the primary (1/2" under the square notch)
AIM-Tamachi slave
Milled cover
Primary vent.

Rather than do piecemeal fixes we just do the one package for a set price.

p.s. We're currently trialling a sweet looking catch-can/vent system that accepts the gearbox, motor and primary vent hoses and manages the sumping and transferring vent mods in one package.

2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

bigcraig

Quote from: Maddo Snr on May 09, 2019, 04:01:48 PM
We have a package now that hasn't failed us yet:
80W140 in the box (just over bottom of dipstick range)
15W50 full-syn in the primary (1/2" under the square notch)
AIM-Tamachi slave
Milled cover
Primary vent.

Rather than do piecemeal fixes we just do the one package for a set price.

p.s. We're currently trialling a sweet looking catch-can/vent system that accepts the gearbox, motor and primary vent hoses and manages the sumping and transferring vent mods in one package.

Do you have a picture of you milled trans cover mods?

ziggy24

I installed the AIM Light Force on my 2019 flhxs and loved it ! ( received it in April of this year) But after 1200 mi I started to have an issue with having trouble getting the bike out of first gear into second. Yesterday, decided to check the fluid, sure enough, the MC was just about empty! First Harley cant make one that doesn't leak ,and now them. 2019 and we still have problems with the simplest of things.
Sent them an email last night and waiting to find out what they want to do.

To The Max

Quote from: ziggy24 on June 24, 2019, 08:45:23 AM
I installed the AIM Light Force on my 2019 flhxs and loved it ! ( received it in April of this year) But after 1200 mi I started to have an issue with having trouble getting the bike out of first gear into second. Yesterday, decided to check the fluid, sure enough, the MC was just about empty! First Harley cant make one that doesn't leak ,and now them. 2019 and we still have problems with the simplest of things.
Sent them an email last night and waiting to find out what they want to do.
I fitted the AIM to my mates 18 cvo street glyde and he is having the same issue but only when cold . he has no transfer and the gear box is full to the correct level. we thought the clutch may be dragging but it goes into first easy ??????. Max

Maddo Snr

The AIM o'rings will abrade and wear if there's a slight air bubble  Change the piston o'rings and polish the cylinder internals. So easy to fix.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

BlairS

I just installed the AIM on my 2019 Road Glide Special and love it. Money well spent. Blair

brokenwing

installed AIM SLAVE CYLINDER on my 2019 Road Glide. WOW... big difference Love it. Hated the clutch before. just don't understand why you have to spend $290.00 and four hrs. work to fix something Harley screwed up almost four years ago and still hasn't addressed. :gob:

calif phil

July 13, 2019, 08:54:19 AM #81 Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 09:09:53 AM by rigidthumper
Muller is also making the reduced effort slave cylinders.  Unlike AIM they also make one for the 2014-16 bikes as well.  I just installed one on a 2015 limited and the customer is over the moon. 

road-dawgs1

Quote from: calif phil on July 13, 2019, 08:54:19 AM
Muller is also making the reduced effort slave cylinders.  Unlike AIM they also make one for the 2014-16 bikes as well.  I just installed one on a 2015 limited and the customer is over the moon.

Any thoughts on which is better? I know AIM's first generation had some issues.  I haven't gotten one yet, but is on my list.
'24 FLTRX Sharkskin blue

HogMike

Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 13, 2019, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: calif phil on July 13, 2019, 08:54:19 AM
Muller is also making the reduced effort slave cylinders.  Unlike AIM they also make one for the 2014-16 bikes as well.  I just installed one on a 2015 limited and the customer is over the moon.

Any thoughts on which is better? I know AIM's first generation had some issues.  I haven't gotten one yet, but is on my list.

I'll bet they both operate about the same.
I ordered the AIM for my 2019 but it was back ordered. Bought the Muller.
Have about 500 miles on the bike and love it!
Worth the money for me. Makes the bike much more fun to ride.
JMHO
HOGMIKE
SoCal

YPD485

Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 13, 2019, 09:16:03 AM
Quote from: calif phil on July 13, 2019, 08:54:19 AM
Muller is also making the reduced effort slave cylinders.  Unlike AIM they also make one for the 2014-16 bikes as well.  I just installed one on a 2015 limited and the customer is over the moon.


The AIM 2nd generation slave cylinder is also having issues. The friction zone pretty much moves out to the end of the lever just like the stock Harley setup.
Any thoughts on which is better? I know AIM's first generation had some issues.  I haven't gotten one yet, but is on my list.

calif phil

The Mueller had the engagement fairly close to the grip.  It's kind of nit picky but the Mueller doesn't come with the bleed nipple.

HogMike

Quote from: calif phil on July 18, 2019, 12:26:58 PM
The Mueller had the engagement fairly close to the grip.  It's kind of nit picky but the Mueller doesn't come with the bleed nipple.

Mine did.
My engagement at the ball end was about 1-1/2 " or about 3/4" at the lever bend
:nix:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

HogMike

I went riding again today so now I've about 1000 miles on the setup and as long as no issues crop up I like it!
:missed:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

road-dawgs1

Quote from: calif phil on July 18, 2019, 12:26:58 PM
The Mueller had the engagement fairly close to the grip.  It's kind of nit picky but the Mueller doesn't come with the bleed nipple.

Good to know. I'd probably be buying a speed bleeder nipple anyway.
'24 FLTRX Sharkskin blue

HogMike

Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 18, 2019, 02:17:56 PM
Quote from: calif phil on July 18, 2019, 12:26:58 PM
The Mueller had the engagement fairly close to the grip.  It's kind of nit picky but the Mueller doesn't come with the bleed nipple.

Good to know. I'd probably be buying a speed bleeder nipple anyway.

I just dumped a little in the bleeder hole, broke loose the supply fitting until fluid dribbled out, filled the master reservoir, put a hose on the bleeder and pumped a few times.
Done
HOGMIKE
SoCal

HogMike

Quote from: calif phil on July 18, 2019, 12:26:58 PM
The Mueller had the engagement fairly close to the grip.  It's kind of nit picky but the Mueller doesn't come with the bleed nipple.

Correction: Phil you are correct, I checked my oem slave cylinder and now I remember the bleed nipple was transferred from old to new. Also the oem spring and rubber gasket was also transferred.
Sorry about the misinformation.

:missed:
HOGMIKE
SoCal