A few weeks ago I found my new SE 6-speed transmission (had under 2,000 miles on it) shifting with much more difficulty than usual. I was finding it annoyingly hard to find neutral and having to hit the shifter a bit harder to get it to shift. Once when downshifting to a stop it would not go from 3rd into 2nd. At that point I checked the fluid to find that it was a yellowish-orange color, like road paint yellow and just as thick as paint.
After flushing the fluid twice it's now shifting better, but I'm still wondering what caused it and what I can do to prevent it from happening again. A monster-truck racer guy at work told me he had a similar color in his differential fluid once and it was due to fast heating and cooling; condensation building up on the inside of the aluminum case and dripping into the fluid causes the change. His suggestion was to install a breather valve onto the transmission case to allow airflow and allow the condensation buildup to escape.
I still need to remove the cover and spray off the yellowish thick residue off the internal transmission components with some brake cleaner or something. The fluid is still discolored but not nearly as bad as it was initially.
The transmission was dealership-installed on my 2006 Fatboy; any other similar case stories or remedies are appreciated.
The transmission is (supposed to be) vented. There should be a "J" shaped rubber hose on the left side between the transmission and inner primary. Might want to make sure it is not plugged up. That is very strange, I have never had tranny oil discolor or thicken. Wonder if someone put the wrong stuff in?
Quote from: smoserx1 on August 03, 2019, 04:47:33 AM
Wonder if someone put the wrong stuff in?
:agree: or mixed it with something else as I have never seen that before.
FWIW I agree too. Whenever I change the fluid in my transmission it always looks just about as new as when it went in. Also, water will get into any of the fluids as condensation happens when the hot surfaces and fluids cool, but then it is burned off once the engine gets back up to operating temperature again.
When you bought the SE 6spd. did you check the fluid, & what color was it.... or did you put fluid in? :scratch:
Quote from: koko3052 on August 04, 2019, 04:06:48 PM
When you bought the SE 6spd. did you check the fluid, & what color was it.... or did you put fluid in? :scratch:
It was clear when I checked the fluid after it was installed, and I had a small leak from the sensor plug a few weeks later. They said they added a uv additive to check for leaks but that wouldn't cause it. When they fixed the leak they didn't add any fluid to it because the leak was pretty negligible, maybe lost a shotglass total.
Depending on the UV dye it can certainly add some color to the lube.
Quote from: PoorUB on August 05, 2019, 03:58:29 PM
Depending on the UV dye it can certainly add some color to the lube.
I asked the dealership exactly that and they said the stuff they used wouldn't cause the color change. Of course, they could just be lying and just covering their butt too. Personally I find it very hard if not impossible to believe that any additive they used would make such an extreme change in viscosity and color.
I'll look for that vent tonight after work smoserx1, I just found out I have to work extra hours :banghead:. I don't see how the condensation would "burn off" when it's
inside the case, I mean where would the evaporating water go? If it were evaporating, it'd have to exit though a vent that smoserx1 mentioned. I'm imagining the condensation bubbling up and forming larger droplets then dripping into the fluid below and contaminating it while it's just sitting.
Wouldn't the gear oil in there though kinda fly about with all the gears spinning when the bike's at speed though? Then the oil would be splashing against the condensation soaked walls of the crankcase anyways. Maybe I should put my boroscope camera down there sometime and verify IF there's condensation going on at all....but when would I want to do this? How long would it take for the condensation to appear, 20 minutes?
The 5 speed transmissions (and maybe yours) have an "oil slinger" near the right end of the tranny. I don't know what it does other than help lube the throwout bearing and the bearings in the trap door. Yes it looks like the remaining lubrication would have to come from oil slinging off the gears themselves. You shouldn't be getting combustion gasses in the transmission case, so it is hard to imagine condensation issues unless you rode for days on end through extreme storms etc., but I guess anything is possible. I have used UV dye before and my dye was yellow, but you only use a tiny amount and that shouldn't cause a problem. In your OP you said the oil became paint-like and messed up the operation of the shifting. Seems like it would take some SERIOUS contamination to cause that. And I don't think you will be able to use a bore scope to see much of anything. You could pull off the top cover of the tranny and maybe check for contamination there. Check your primary fluid, make sure your clutch is adjusted properly (if cable operated) and make sure your primary chain tension is ok. Good luck.
Do you do a lot of short rides? That will build up a lot of condensation with no chance to burn it off. A good long ride of at least an hour will ensure that it is getting burned off.
Check your vent to make sure it is not plugged. The condensation evaporates through that vent. Condensation collects in all the oils overnight as the bike cools, and then gets mixed back in when the bike is ridden. The heat generated will burn it off.
Change the fluid when hot, after a 20 or 30 minute ride.
Don't over think the condensation thing, just check the vent and go on long rides.
Like others have said, it is a transmission. No way to get condensation or moisture it it unless you take a lot of short rides in wet weather. I seriously doubt it was moisture. I believe it was some mix of oils and or dye.
Change it, and ride it, a d maybe change it again.
Other than that I would not let it bug me.
Maybe this:
The boss says to the newest shop dummy, "Dump in some UV and check for leaks."
The kid adds a quart of UV and there you go.
cling
I'd do what "Poor" suggested. Change it, ride it till it is hot and change it again.
I found the evap hose, so there's that. Right on the left side where smoserx1 said it was, has a 90-degree fitting off the transmission cover that's connected to a 6" long thin hose going up towards the oil pan but connected to nothing.
That's the way it's set up, it just vents to open air.
Sounds like moisture contamination.
I ride short rides in the rain to work all the time. I live in Southwest Louisiana it rains damn near every other day , high humidity all year long . The 13,18 &19; rgu never had fluid change color like that or show a condensation issue and with the m8 touring transfer issues I check trans fluid often. I use many different oils except the 19 with the blown trans slave cylinder and later transfer issue fluids in the trans and primary have been changed by dealer often.
Yeah, something odd happened to cause the op's fluid problem, it was not condensation.
I tend to agree with the idea that a tech filled it with UV fluid.
Quote from: PoorUB on August 06, 2019, 06:05:24 AM
Like others have said, it is a transmission. No way to get condensation or moisture it it unless you take a lot of short rides in wet weather. I seriously doubt it was moisture. I believe it was some mix of oils and or dye.
Change it, and ride it, a d maybe change it again.
Other than that I would not let it bug me.
Not to beat the concept to death, and it is not the cause of the problem, but why can't condensation collect in the transmission? It has a hose open to the atmosphere, can't it pull moisture in through there, especially as it cools?
Just a query.
Quote from: Hossamania on August 07, 2019, 01:30:20 PM
Not to beat the concept to death, and it is not the cause of the problem, but why can't condensation collect in the transmission? It has a hose open to the atmosphere, can't it pull moisture in through there, especially as it cools?
Just a query.
From what I understand it's main purpose is to allow the expansion and contraction of hot air in the transmission, or any other enclosed case. Otherwise you'd end up pressurizing the case from hot air inside, and it'd likely cause leaks. However you may be onto something there, if there's say a single drop of water slightly sucked in from just humidity and other moisture in the ambient air (I don't see it sucking in much more than that) if that happened EVERY time I'd turn off the bike....that might accumulate over time to contaminate the fluid....maybe?
It might collect a very small amount, but not enough to matter, and it would probably burn off with heat.
I have never had moisture in the transmission on my Harleys and I have ridden miles in some very nasty rain. On the other hand, I ride enough miles that if any moisture got in, it got cooked out right away too.
I just don't see getting moisture on the tranny being a likely problem. I suppose it could happen, but like I said, perhaps short trips in wet weather. Short trips in dry weather, not a chance. The tranny is not like an engine. There is nothing inside to produce condensation. The only way to get moisture in the tranny is to put it there, intentionally, or by riding in the rain.
Moisture enters the transmission (or fuel tank for that matter) only after many cycles of cooling in humid air. Each time it cools off some moist air is drawn through the vent (due to the shrinking capacity) into the housing or tank as the case may be. After many cycles of warming and cooling the accumulated moisture will collect and form as water in the bottom of the "container". Only prolonged heat and venting will revaporize it and release it back through the vent to atmosphere where it came from. Just warming it up and then allowing it to cool adds to the problem. If this moisture forms water and sits in a bearing or on other ferrous component when stored for any length of time you will get rust spotting as the water picks up an acid like residue from the used oil.
Was curious too, I've changed the oil in friends bikes that did not ride as much and would sometimes see it be somewhat "milky", so water was in the oil. Thinking back their transmission fluid looked OK by comparison. Was trying to think of what the difference could possibly be and I suppose it is all the combustion air that the oil is mixing with but the transmission is not. Might just get hotter too. Don't really know, just thinking.
Motor oil is much more prone to condensation.
QuoteMotor oil is much more prone to condensation.
H-D seems to want the same fluid in all three holes. Not in mine (now), but lots of folks do it that way.
Quote from: chaos901 on August 08, 2019, 07:57:55 AM
QuoteMotor oil is much more prone to condensation.
H-D seems to want the same fluid in all three holes. Not in mine (now), but lots of folks do it that way.
I should have said, oil in the motor is more prone to condensation, as opposed to the oil in the trans or primary.
I'd like to mix some oil with water this weekend and experiment but I'm working :banghead: I'd also like to dump a little oil out and post a picture here of the stuff, see how it's doing after 1,000 more miles.
Could it have been something from the factory- like a lime packet that wasn't spotted during installation or something that was crammed in a corner eventually dropped and exploded inside the case? I'm just trying to think of stuff it could be other than the condensation theory.
I think that you should keep riding it & changing the trans. oil until it cleans up & then just monitor.
I agree, stop worrying about it, change it a couple times and ride it. I doubt there is anything in the tranny that will hurt any thing, certainly after a couple lube changes. It is a pretty simple gear box, as long as it has lube it will be happy. It worked well after a lube change.
We know a tech dumped dye into it, I still believe that is what it is, maybe the tech over did the dye shot. If one ounce is good, ten is better!
Remember oil and water don't really mix. If you do manage to get it dispersed you really end up with hundreds of tiny drops of water in the oil, but still not really mixed. A milky appearance usually results. Just change it and ride.
So here I am again, 9 months later- with discolored transmission fluid. I'm convinced it's water mixing in. I've also just heard it might be from sitting over the winter, and that having it changing colors is a regular occurrence. To back up that claim, a friend's '15 slim is also a dark green after 3 years. Perhaps it is a winter storage thing, as this is not happening with everybody, but I'll be changing fluid out either before or after winter storage from here on out.
What are you running for transmission lube?
Send a sample off to Blackstone for examination.
Quote from: Hossamania on May 21, 2020, 03:44:11 PM
Send a sample off to Blackstone for examination.
That is an excellent idea Hoss- I have a kit already too.
Quote from: PoorUB on May 21, 2020, 02:39:08 PM
What are you running for transmission lube?
I'm using that new oil that Harley came out with, Heavy Synthetic Gear Oil 80W-140 [62600091] At $20 a quart I'm glad it takes just under a quart to fill it.
Were both times with HD lube? Then try something else. It may be just HD's oil. You can buy 75w140 syn at any auto parts store and it might be less money.
Bel Ray 75/140 was $19 a quart at the bike show last year, I held off thinking I could get it for much less at the store. Yep, less, $18.99. So $20 isn't out of line.
I agree with PoorUB, try a different brand, I'm partial to Bel Ray and and Spectro. But I've run almost everything. Just put Drag Specialty tranny gear lube in my brother's.
I guess we'll find out in another 6 months, I mean whatever is going on is a recurring thing. I have a feeling the only thing that'll change by changing brands will be what color it ends up being. The first time it happened, I don't know what fluid was in it, but the HD gear oil had just come out for sale so the oil was different now than last time. However that time it was an orange/yellow, and now it's an olive green, which makes me think that different gear oil will produce a different color but the same milky result.
I look forward to another 6+ months to check my friend's slim as well, as we changed the trans fluids at the same time with the same HD gear oil. Do some comparisons.
In your OP last august you said the tranny wasn't shifting well. How is it shifting now? If it is just a color change that might not be too bad. I have never really had it happen with a lubricant, but I use DOT 5 brake fluid, which is silicone oil based. It is dyed a light purple new but in just a few months in my bike will change to a yellowish green, about the color of a tennis ball. Doesn't seem to affect its functionality though.
Quote from: smoserx1 on May 22, 2020, 04:07:25 AM
In your OP last august you said the tranny wasn't shifting well. How is it shifting now? If it is just a color change that might not be too bad. I have never really had it happen with a lubricant, but I use DOT 5 brake fluid, which is silicone oil based. It is dyed a light purple new but in just a few months in my bike will change to a yellowish green, about the color of a tennis ball. Doesn't seem to affect its functionality though.
It's shifting fine, but the consistency was much thicker the first time than it is now- pretty sure that was the main reason for the difficult shifts, the oil was like paint. I installed a little clutch lever extension and needed to drain the transmission and when I did it was :emoGroan: "not again". However I suppose it's better to know now than later when it'd become an issue.
You use brake fluid in your transmission? Never heard of that one, I'd think that'd be too thin.
QuoteYou use brake fluid in your transmission? Never heard of that one, I'd think that'd be too thin.
No! (LOL) I didn't mean that! Changes color in the master cylinder reservoirs.
Quote from: smoserx1 on May 22, 2020, 03:20:21 PM
QuoteYou use brake fluid in your transmission? Never heard of that one, I'd think that'd be too thin.
No! (LOL) I didn't mean that! Changes color in the master cylinder reservoirs.
:hyst:
Quote from: smoserx1 on May 22, 2020, 03:20:21 PM
QuoteYou use brake fluid in your transmission? Never heard of that one, I'd think that'd be too thin.
No! (LOL) I didn't mean that! Changes color in the master cylinder reservoirs.
OK, you had me concerned there :hyst:
I just re-read chaos' post...
Quote from: chaos901 on August 08, 2019, 07:57:55 AM
H-D seems to want the same fluid in all three holes. Not in mine (now), but lots of folks do it that way.
:hyst: Oh I needed that laugh!
Yea that is pretty funny but after I re-read my own post I can see how it could be interpreted I was using DOT 5 in the tranny.