In several posts I read warnings from Max Headflow and FSG not to use the wedge type locking tool. They recommend the locking bar instead. It made me sit down and do some calculations about the forces that might occur (using engineering mechanics). Please excuse for metric units and German words: replace "N" by "lb" and "Nm" by "ft-lb" in the final equation and you have at least an acceptable approximation. "Keil" is "wedge"
Result: Bending forces (FS) at tranny shaft (and crank) are more then ten times (!) higher using the wedge. Simply spoken the wedge method results in a gun tackle effect.
Example: Torquing down the comp nut to spec with 165 ft-lb (TC88) results in a bending force on tranny shaft of about 16,500 lb using the wedge. But breaking the nut (red loctite!) with lets say three times the spec. torque results in a force on tranny shaft of about 50,000 lb
Thanks to Max and FSG for the advice!
By the way: A buddy of mine removed the inner primary and had to use a huge breaker bar to get the comp nut loose. At assembly he recogniced a bent tranny main shaft an wondered about. Don't ask me what locking tool he used ;-)
(https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1574283471;topic=54582.0;attach=97009;image)
(https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1574283471;topic=54582.0;attach=97011;image)
Way above my little cop mind.
Nothing like seeing it with the force angles in play. Personally I aways thought was a barbaric form of abuse on the chain.
Ron
:nix:
What the hell does this mean....................."gun tackle effect." :scratch:
Quote from: moscooter on August 18, 2012, 03:23:57 PM
:nix:
What the hell does this mean....................."gun tackle effect." :scratch:
Block and tackle stuff. I think it refers to running through one pulley for leverage rather than two.
Ron
Wasn't the reason for switching from the wedge to the bar to prevent the primary case from cracking? I don't understand how it could crack but that's what I remember reading.
Karl,
Thanks for working the numbers.. I was too lazy to work the calculations.. Imaging what the numbers are if a rag or screw driver handle is used instead..
Looking at the calcs I may have some questions later but I think that it's a good first order set of calcs..
Max
Quote from: truck on August 18, 2012, 04:18:26 PM
Wasn't the reason for switching from the wedge to the bar to prevent the primary case from cracking? I don't understand how it could crack but that's what I remember reading.
I think it was to keep the case from shifting and damaging the inner primary bearing but I could see where on the early cases you could crack the O ring boss on the motor as a result..
Max
I used an air impact wrench to loosen the comp nut on the OEM comp and used the wedge and a 1/2" torque wrench to tighten down the bolt on the SE comp. No issues.
Air impact off, locking bar and a TQ wrench on.
Just got to be careful not to loosen up them magnets on the rotor.. I've taken off about a dozen comp sprockets with an air impact and haven't had a problem YET. :smileo:
Quote from: Rusty Steel on August 18, 2012, 09:47:51 PM
Just got to be careful not to loosen up them magnets on the rotor.. I've taken off about a dozen comp sprockets with an air impact and haven't had a problem YET. :smileo:
I've always heard that there is a possibility that you can loosen the magnets too. I think the key is a lot of air pressure, and heavy duty air impact. You know, just rip the nut off, rather than clanking away at it. I haven't loosened any magnets yet either.
The key is not using a cheap ass impact and beating the hell out of everything. A good impact will pull the comp quickly and you can't even feel the impact on the rotor.
Quote from: Max Headflow on August 18, 2012, 04:23:30 PM
Imaging what the numbers are if a rag or screw driver handle is used instead..
Max
Good finding, Max! The forces depend on how far the chain is pushed away from the pulley. The smaller the wedge the higher the forces. If using a wedge on a TC88 than the big (and stepped) one which is recommended by the factory.
Quote from: moscooter on August 18, 2012, 03:23:57 PM
:nix:
What the hell does this mean....................."gun tackle effect." :scratch:
I you use a simple block and tuckle (gun tuckle) the force which brings the two pulleys together is twice the force you apply on the loose end of the rope. Same effect with wedge locking: The force on the pulley shafts (gear and crank) is twice the force in the chain.
I use 3/4 snap on impact with a impact socket,one ,hit its off,and 3/4 torque wrench, just makes it safer for user and the bike , the old saying bigger the better, only for this though, cheers Barny
Quote from: barny7655 on August 19, 2012, 12:43:09 AM
I use 3/4 snap on impact with a impact socket,one ,hit its off,and 3/4 torque wrench, just makes it safer for user and the bike , the old saying bigger the better, only for this though, cheers Barny
Why?? are you worried about breaking a 1/2 in drive??
Max
I do a lot of harmonic balancers on cars , remove and replace , the bolt that holds them on , one would think a 1/2 impact would remove them ,not, so 3/4 the go ,its just the undo, that needs that shock to start it ,most up market double hammer 1/2 guns range from 750,to 900 ft lbs in reverse,we have 16 mechanics with all types of air impact guns,so when a new model comes out i try it on some of these bolts,some do ,some dont,but when your gun over rattles trying to undo , those hammers wear, just replaced both on my gun as one snapped,as another post has said dont want those magnets to dislodge ,we run our compressor at 7 bar,as we say here every one to there own ,cheers barny
Quote from: barny7655 on August 20, 2012, 01:25:01 AM
we run our compressor at 7 bar,as we say here every one to there own ,cheers barny
:teeth: You made me look it up. 7bar = 101.xxx psi.
I found another reason why the primary of the TC96 (up) must not be locked with the wedge type tool of the TC88:
Using the wedge you might bend or brake the auto adjuster (at least the early versions) by the resulting chain force.
Karl
i forgot to add , its the volumme of air that undoes the nut , not only psi of the air compressor ,3/4 does the job but requires a larger air flow that a 1/2 inch ,the electric one also does well on these nuts, cheers
I think they went to the locking bar due to not enough clearance for the chain to deflect when using the block. Broken inner primary could result.
Ron
Is it possible to use the bar on the inners with inspection cover stand-offs?
xlfan
Quote from: xlfan on May 30, 2015, 07:20:08 AM
Is it possible to use the bar on the inners with inspection cover stand-offs?
xlfan
Yes but it requires a custom bent flat bar with a job in it to clear the stand offs. Bend up a 1/8 welding rod as a template for clearance both ways with flipping and tooth contact angles, then bend a flatbar to match.
Ron
My ingersoll rand 2131 max hasent failed me yet @ 175 psi - busts them loose no sweat . But it has failed me - honda crank bolt .
damn good info
impact wrench - don't you risk knocking the crank out of alignment?
I think Baker needs to make a primary locking bar that works better with their Attitude Adjuster, might grind down mine in the middle to help with the teeth engagement.
Quote from: JohnK on May 31, 2015, 08:39:39 PM
impact wrench - don't you risk knocking the crank out of alignment?
The service manual (TC88) says:
When LOCTITE cannot be broken under normal conditions with conventional methods, apply moderate heat or use an air impact wrench ONLY TO LOOSEN compensating sprocket nut.
my no frills locking bar from a leftover piece of straight metal has done the trick several times. no need to shop for an "official tool"
Quote from: FBobPilot on June 01, 2015, 07:57:13 AM
I think Baker needs to make a primary locking bar that works better with their Attitude Adjuster, might grind down mine in the middle to help with the teeth engagement.
In a case like that, using the comp's hex and a wrench is the best option. Torques values end up the same whether using the hex or a locking bar.
Ron
Quote from: runamuck on June 07, 2015, 07:05:56 AM
my no frills locking bar from a leftover piece of straight metal has done the trick several times. no need to shop for an "official tool"
Let's face it, they all start out as a 20' length from a metal supply oufit. :wink: A couple of cuts and 1000% markup, instant tool.
Ron
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 18, 2012, 10:02:01 PM
Quote from: Rusty Steel on August 18, 2012, 09:47:51 PM
Just got to be careful not to loosen up them magnets on the rotor.. I've taken off about a dozen comp sprockets with an air impact and haven't had a problem YET. :smileo:
I've always heard that there is a possibility that you can loosen the magnets too. I think the key is a lot of air pressure, and heavy duty air impact. You know, just rip the nut off, rather than clanking away at it. I haven't loosened any magnets yet either.
:up:
Quote from: Coyote on August 18, 2012, 10:38:42 PM
The key is not using a cheap ass impact and beating the hell out of everything. A good impact will pull the comp quickly and you can't even feel the impact on the rotor.
:up:
Nice force illustration Karl.
Impressive math there.... when I replaced the comp on my 07 SG, I got a piece of oak 1 x 4" cut it to fit inbetween the teeth, wedge it in there & used a long breaker bar.
Everything worked just fine. Oh... I did remove the adjusted first.
Where is the force illustration? I'm not seeing it.
These pics were originally included into my first post but got lost:
[attach=0]
[attach=1]
:up:
Thank you! :up:
There's a sticky in the tool section with the dimensions of the bar reqquired for each model I have been meaning to add the one I made for my 49 tooth EVO Industries basket.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,1086.0.html
I'm trying to understand the equations. Can you explain where the distance constants 50 & 25, which I'm guessing are in the units of meters comes from?
I'm guessing it might have something to do with a locking bar length being about 25 cm????
Quote from: Karl H. on August 18, 2012, 01:10:50 PMResult: Bending forces (FS) at tranny shaft (and crank) are more then ten times (!) higher using the wedge. Simply spoken the wedge method results in a gun tackle effect.
Example: Torquing down the comp nut to spec with 165 ft-lb (TC88) results in a bending force on tranny shaft of about 16,500 lb using the wedge. But breaking the nut (red loctite!) with lets say three times the spec. torque results in a force on tranny shaft of about 50,000 lb
I'm not following this and empirically it doesn't make any sense to me. If we are to assume a gun tackle effect, wouldn't that give us twice the mechanical advantage? So, 165 ft-lbs results in 330 lbs?
I'm just not seeing how 165 ft-lbs of force can result in 16,500 lbs on the tranny shaft. That's over 8 tons of force! That's much more than your average bottle jack.
The purpose of this calculation was to show that the wedge method applies significantly more load to the primary shaft. The result of the comparison doesn'n depend on the very exact dimensions.
The ,,25" results from 1/r = 1/40mm = 1/0,04m = 25 [1/m]
The ,,50" results from 1/d = 1/20mm = 1/0,02m= 50 [1/m]
Karl
Quote from: lqqk_out on November 20, 2019, 04:47:06 PM
...If we are to assume a gun tackle effect, wouldn't that give us twice the mechanical advantage? So, 165 ft-lbs results in 330 lbs?...
Right! If the clutch sprocket rotates freely the load on the shaft is two times the force in one chain strand: Fs = 2 x F
Anyone have a picture or diagram of the bars used? Something we can make or is it store bought? Thanks, Frank
Quote from: a_disalvo on November 23, 2019, 07:30:26 AM
Anyone have a picture or diagram of the bars used? Something we can make or is it store bought? Thanks, Frank
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,1086.msg1321324.html#new
Quote from: a_disalvo on November 23, 2019, 07:30:26 AM
Anyone have a picture or diagram of the bars used? Something we can make or is it store bought? Thanks, Frank
Here's my home-made lock bar to suit a 2012 FLHTK. It's made from mild steel bar 1/4" thick by 1" wide by 5-15/16" long. It performed perfectly when I changed out my compensator. [attach=0]
Nice force diagram there Karl.
However, to find the force component using trigonometry you need to use a right triangle, and not an acute scalene triangle as shown in the diagram.
Jason
Quote from: Norton Commando on November 27, 2019, 07:30:34 AM
Nice force diagram there Karl.
However, to find the force component using trigonometry you need to use a right triangle, and not an acute scalene triangle as shown in the diagram.
Jason
Ignore the vertical line. It's throwing you off. Draw the triangle.
Right! Fs should not have been drawn exactly vertical. :up:
Karl
Quote from: rbabos on May 30, 2015, 05:51:27 AM
I think they went to the locking bar due to not enough clearance for the chain to deflect when using the block. Broken inner primary could result.
Ron
You Sir, are correct. 04 and later have a much narrower distance. While the Locking bars can be used on the TC, many of the EVO's require the Wedge. You could however manufacture one. The distance between the Comp Gear and Clutch Gear is a much greater distance. BUT, much more clearance for the Wedge is provided. Belly Breathers are a must for the Wedge - 92 and prior
I made a locking bar for my 09 dyna
I used two wedges with the Evo (diagonally opposed ) to spread the load
Next time I am in there I will make a bar