Been two years since the last build and have decided to change it up some but could use some help with Tb and cam. Bike is a 05 fxdi 5spd and gets put in touring duty. I don't always have 91 available. Like the last trip the station we stopped at was out of 91 next station only had 87 so a tank full went in and the next station was 60 miles away. Never two up and I'm about 220lbs.
10.5:1 compression With .040hg
Good flowing heads with 1.9 intake and 1.61Ex flowing 290@28
Fat cat with big bore baffle
For the throttle body I'm looking at either the 55 x 1.8 or 58x1.8 not sure which one will be better and could depend on cams
For the cams I am looking at a few different ones the cr595 s&s 585 tman590 possibly the tm625 though my compression my be too much have even look at the rs57
I may be slicing hairs with the cam and Tb but would like to know yours thoughts
10.5 is perfect for the T-man 625. Ran that in my roadking for years. No issues and I'm running a carb. Can't help with the other cans as I have no experience with them.
As for fuel, you can get some octane boost in little 1 or 2 ounce packages and add to a tank of gas. I never had to tho. And I've ran 87 a couple times when better choices were not available.
Quote from: rking1550 on July 24, 2020, 06:52:26 AM
10.5 is perfect for the T-man 625. Ran that in my roadking for years. No issues and I'm running a carb. Can't help with the other cans as I have no experience with them.
As for fuel, you can get some octane boost in little 1 or 2 ounce packages and add to a tank of gas. I never had to tho. And I've ran 87 a couple times when better choices were not available.
Thanks for that, I really like being able to have a bike I don't have to baby. If the 625 can run at 10.5 and not be finicky about gas that would be nice. I would ass/u/me it would pull out the top with good flowing heads.
What was your set up in the RK?
There was an older dyno on here with my Pro heads and a 98" and the CR595. Made north of 120 squared IIRC. Tuned by Nick in Texas. It takes 11:1 to run that cam effectively and it won't ping there if tuned right. Would not consider the Tman 625 and the 590 would be a contender at 10.8:1. S&S 585 not usually on my list except for guys that insist on gear drive or easy starts.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 24, 2020, 08:23:47 AM
There was an older dyno on here with my Pro heads and a 98" and the CR595. Made north of 120 squared IIRC. Tuned by Nick in Texas. It takes 11:1 to run that cam effectively and it won't ping there if tuned right. Would not consider the Tman 625 and the 590 would be a contender at 10.8:1. S&S 585 not usually on my list except for guys that insist on gear drive or easy starts.
I saw that chart and threw the 595 in just because of it. To be totally honest, I'm concerned about pushing the compression up that high. Not that it won't work DJ proved it will in his bike with the way he rides it. I'm just not sure about how it will work for me. That said I haven't ruled them out but not sure I can make 11.1. 10.75 is about the best I can get.
Are you saying not to run the tman cams or not to run them under 10.8?
I am strictly not loyal or against any cam brand. I will use which one is a good match to reach the goal. Compression then adjusted to the cam choice. If I can't hit the number then I punt. The 595 needs that much CR. Lower and it will not be real spunky down low. Pipe choice is part of the equation too. And the heads? 1.8" inlet? My personal opinion I reserve that for a larger valve (throat) head. The 590 will and does work well at 10.7 if that is what you can get to. At 98" I would be using a dome for sure and not milling the cr** out of the heads.
Pulled this one out of the catacombs in the dyno section.
As Max states in the attached thread, you don't need a lot of cam, to make power when the heads are good. As well all of the parts need to work well together. IMHO is this is mainly going to be a touring bike, I'd keep the valve lift to a moderate height, 0.600" or less. Not as much stress on things that way.
Nice broad torque in the 3,000 to 5,000 range. Which is where you'll be 95% of the time on open road. Unfortunately he doesn't state his cranking PSI or static compression. But I doubt it's anywhere over 200ccp. I would guess around 10.5:1 to 10.8:1.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,88660.msg1012308.html#msg1012308
Here is a little more spirited build. It's all about what you want. Pipe is an important part of the equation too. this build with a fatcat would have a much better torque curve.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,97306.msg1286027.html#msg1286027
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 07:59:10 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on July 24, 2020, 06:52:26 AM
10.5 is perfect for the T-man 625. Ran that in my roadking for years. No issues and I'm running a carb. Can't help with the other cans as I have no experience with them.
As for fuel, you can get some octane boost in little 1 or 2 ounce packages and add to a tank of gas. I never had to tho. And I've ran 87 a couple times when better choices were not available.
Thanks for that, I really like being able to have a bike I don't have to baby. If the 625 can run at 10.5 and not be finicky about gas that would be nice. I would ass/u/me it would pull out the top with good flowing heads.
What was your set up in the RK?
Mine was a 2001 roadking, 10.5 compression, t-man 625 cam T-man
Older stage 2 head. I cant remember what he was calling them at the time. A 42 mikuni carb DDT ignition and a bub 7. 2 into 1 exhaust. Been on multiple dynos always made 105 to 110 hp and same numbers on torque. And that was a 95" motor.
I would think with efi and being able to tune it better than a carb. You'd be good. But others on here are much smarter and have way more experience than I do. You might be better off listening to some of them .
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 24, 2020, 09:14:53 AM
Pulled this one out of the catacombs in the dyno section.
As Max states in the attached thread, you don't need a lot of cam, to make power when the heads are good. As well all of the parts need to work well together. IMHO is this is mainly going to be a touring bike, I'd keep the valve lift to a moderate height, 0.600" or less. Not as much stress on things that way.
Nice broad torque in the 3,000 to 5,000 range. Which is where you'll be 95% of the time on open road. Unfortunately he doesn't state his cranking PSI or static compression. But I doubt it's anywhere over 200ccp. I would guess around 10.5:1 to 10.8:1.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,88660.msg1012308.html#msg1012308
That's a good look. Chart making some Hp to boot. He is at 10:1 so the ccp is round bout 195. Looks good but I can't get that low for sure. I do like the curves though.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 24, 2020, 09:23:21 AM
Here is a little more spirited build. It's all about what you want. Pipe is an important part of the equation too. this build with a fatcat would have a much better torque curve.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,97306.msg1286027.html#msg1286027
That's looks nice with the dip removed just about perfect. I have the fat cat so that "should" help. I am running a 10cc dome for compression and the heads are 86cc. Do you have any graphs of that 590ps2 with a 98? On the 1.8 inlet that's the recommendation of the porter and he said TB 55/58 hpi. I'm not really questioning him, but he was vague on the cam.
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 24, 2020, 09:14:53 AM
Pulled this one out of the catacombs in the dyno section.
As Max states in the attached thread, you don't need a lot of cam, to make power when the heads are good. As well all of the parts need to work well together. IMHO is this is mainly going to be a touring bike, I'd keep the valve lift to a moderate height, 0.600" or less. Not as much stress on things that way.
Nice broad torque in the 3,000 to 5,000 range. Which is where you'll be 95% of the time on open road. Unfortunately he doesn't state his cranking PSI or static compression. But I doubt it's anywhere over 200ccp. I would guess around 10.5:1 to 10.8:1.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,88660.msg1012308.html#msg1012308
That's a good look. Chart making some Hp to boot. He is at 10:1 so the ccp is like he round bout 195. Too look but I can't get that low for sure. I do like the curves though.
He says he has "10:1 pistons", but I'm sure that his heads have been machine thinner.
I would speculate about 10.5:1. But that's all is is, a speculation.
I had the 625 in my 98" 10.8. Ran great. Where it shined was at part throttle. 20% pic is comparing to another 98 build.
Quote from: lonewolf on July 24, 2020, 10:44:14 AM
I had the 625 in my 98" 10.8. Ran great. Where it shined was at part throttle. 20% pic is comparing to another 98 build.
What supporting parts did you run with it?
I call tman and asked about the cams and they recommend as Don did that the 590 would be a better fit than the 625. Especially if I could put it at 10.8. He said the 625 is more of a low mid cam and the 590 more of a mid high cam. If the 590 is run less than 10.8 it would be soft on the bottom, but at 10.8 I wouldn't notice. Based on the above chart it looks to be more mid range than low rpm tq. He seemed to like the 590 at 10.8 over the 625 at 10.6. All that said the above chart looks good
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 11:23:29 AM
What supporting parts did you run with it?
Don's heads, Dragos 2:1, 6cc CP pistons, One of the discontinued Kuryakn 57mm tb's.
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 11:23:29 AM
Quote from: lonewolf on July 24, 2020, 10:44:14 AM
I had the 625 in my 98" 10.8. Ran great. Where it shined was at part throttle. 20% pic is comparing to another 98 build.
What supporting parts did you run with it?
I call tman and asked about the cams and they recommend as Don did that the 590 would be a better fit than the 625. Especially if I could put it at 10.8. He said the 625 is more of a low mid cam and the 590 more of a mid high cam. If the 590 is run less than 10.8 it would be soft on the bottom, but at 10.8 I wouldn't notice. Based on the above chart it looks to be more mid range than low rpm tq. He seemed to like the 590 at 10.8 over the 625 at 10.6. All that said the above chart looks good
Russel also knows a fantastic tuner. :teeth:
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 24, 2020, 11:35:32 AM
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 11:23:29 AM
Quote from: lonewolf on July 24, 2020, 10:44:14 AM
I had the 625 in my 98" 10.8. Ran great. Where it shined was at part throttle. 20% pic is comparing to another 98 build.
What supporting parts did you run with it?
I call tman and asked about the cams and they recommend as Don did that the 590 would be a better fit than the 625. Especially if I could put it at 10.8. He said the 625 is more of a low mid cam and the 590 more of a mid high cam. If the 590 is run less than 10.8 it would be soft on the bottom, but at 10.8 I wouldn't notice. Based on the above chart it looks to be more mid range than low rpm tq. He seemed to like the 590 at 10.8 over the 625 at 10.6. All that said the above chart looks good
Russel also knows a fantastic tuner. :teeth:
My plans for tune is power house dyno in Mo
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 11:57:59 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 24, 2020, 11:35:32 AM
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 11:23:29 AM
Quote from: lonewolf on July 24, 2020, 10:44:14 AM
I had the 625 in my 98" 10.8. Ran great. Where it shined was at part throttle. 20% pic is comparing to another 98 build.
What supporting parts did you run with it?
I call tman and asked about the cams and they recommend as Don did that the 590 would be a better fit than the 625. Especially if I could put it at 10.8. He said the 625 is more of a low mid cam and the 590 more of a mid high cam. If the 590 is run less than 10.8 it would be soft on the bottom, but at 10.8 I wouldn't notice. Based on the above chart it looks to be more mid range than low rpm tq. He seemed to like the 590 at 10.8 over the 625 at 10.6. All that said the above chart looks good
Russel also knows a fantastic tuner. :teeth:
My plans for tune is power house dyno in Mo
Joe is top notch. :up:
I was kidding about Russel because he tuned it. He's very very good.
Missed that one :doh:
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 24, 2020, 09:23:21 AM
Here is a little more spirited build. It's all about what you want. Pipe is an important part of the equation too. this build with a fatcat would have a much better torque curve.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,97306.msg1286027.html#msg1286027
This is my bike. I changed to a Python 2-1 similar to a pro pipe. The torque is all in before 2500 and it's a blast to ride now.it will spin the tire into 3rd gear now.In no way would it do that with the Python 2-2 that was on it when it was tuned.Had plenty of power but no low end torque like now.Don't have a new Dyno sheet yet. Coff 06
Quote from: lonewolf on July 24, 2020, 10:44:14 AM
I had the 625 in my 98" 10.8. Ran great. Where it shined was at part throttle. 20% pic is comparing to another 98 build.
This brings up a good question I haven't thought on a good Hp Tq curve that might look good and not be responsive. That would suck.
Quote from: lonewolf on July 24, 2020, 10:44:14 AM
I had the 625 in my 98" 10.8. Ran great. Where it shined was at part throttle. 20% pic is comparing to another 98 build.
A HUGE difference in that throttle position.
I'd try HP103
I've been studying specs on all the cams and it appears that the tman 590 and the woods 8 are very similar with the exception of a little more exhaust duration. Even the Same lobe centers and lift. So could you say that they respond similar with the tman just being quieter?
All of these cams apear close to each other
When looking at cam specs you only get to see the intended actions of the valve opening and closing. When you can't see is lobe shape that can also effect how a cam can add to how well it will work in an application.
Here's how I decide, once narrowed down to a couple cams, looking at similar builds with dyno sheets to review. For a street bike I would lean in the direction of what RPM range you honestly will be riding in. ALMOST everyone rides between 3,000 to 5,000 RPM on the open road. In town they ride anywhere from 2,000 to 4,000 RPM. 98% of the time these are the RPM's you're in. So pick what looks to give what you want in those RPM's.
If you really must have the most power at top end and not concerned with anything else, that makes the selection easier. But the 98% of people are unhappy with that selection. It's a common thing called "over cammed" where the bike may not perform where you really ride.
Secondly but not by any means last, if you're using Joe Lyons to tune the bike. Talk to him. He has first hand experience with many cams in similar sized motors and exhaust combinations. I would trust Joe to steer me in the right direction.
tman 590 and the woods 8 ^^^^^
The dead give away are the differences in overlap. The seat to seat timing on the two cams is very different, so is the operating noise level. :wink:
I still run a 1.575" exhaust valve on most 98" builds with my Street Pro Heads. this is not a cost decision.
I wouldn't use the 8's, I'd use the 6's as shown in the sheets listed above. The Wood 6 cams aren't clackers like the 8's are.
[attach=0]
Given the choice of the three and if noise was a factor I would go right to the TR590. Bonus more of a top end charge. Assumes 10.8 can be achieved. I no longer use CP Bullet series pistons and prefer Mahle pistons for the same bore. 9cc dome at 85cc chamber is perfect, just a light mill.
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2020, 06:05:15 AM
When looking at cam specs you only get to see the intended actions of the valve opening and closing. When you can't see is lobe shape that can also effect how a cam can add to how well it will work in an application.
Here's how I decide, once narrowed down to a couple cams, looking at similar builds with dyno sheets to review. For a street bike I would lean in the direction of what RPM range you honestly will be riding in. ALMOST everyone rides between 3,000 to 5,000 RPM on the open road. In town they ride anywhere from 2,000 to 4,000 RPM. 98% of the time these are the RPM's you're in. So pick what looks to give what you want in those RPM's.
If you really must have the most power at top end and not concerned with anything else, that makes the selection easier. But the 98% of people are unhappy with that selection. It's a common thing called "over cammed" where the bike may not perform where you really ride.
Secondly but not by any means last, if you're using Joe Lyons to tune the bike. Talk to him. He has first hand experience with many cams in similar sized motors and exhaust combinations. I would trust Joe to steer me in the right direction.
I have an email into him to get some advice. If I don't hear back I'll call. For me the 3+ is the range I want and spend a lot of time in. My town riding is 2500-3000, but that's not where I need power. I'm just putting through our small town and I avoid cities like the plague. My worst city style driving is Sturgis every year. I really like to hav power on the big roads where my bike is turning 3200-4000 rpm.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM
Given the choice of the three and if noise was a factor I would go right to the TR590. Bonus more of a top end charge. Assumes 10.8 can be achieved. I no longer use CP Bullet series pistons and prefer Mahle pistons for the same bore. 9cc dome at 85cc chamber is perfect, just a light mill.
10.8 is easy to hit so looks like 590 is the cam to go to. One honest question what is it about the 585 that you do not like? And what is the difference in feel on the bike? Considering they are both set at 10.8. I have time with the 585 but never even rode a bike with the 590.
I have very few cams I don't like. I just sold an S&S 585 but it was for a specific application where it worked well. I do and have seen many combinations of parts I don't like. The reasons are many but if we are looking at the 585 VS the TR590 in a hypothetical situation without all the facts about the build the exhaust duration tells part of the story why. The porting done on the exhaust side, the exhaust valve choice, and the pipe all come into play. The simple answer is the TR590 is less exhaust sensitive. The 585 has +10° exhaust duration and opens the exhaust 5° earlier, based on numbers at .053" lift. Intakes look similar but knowing what I do about the lobes I suspect the S&S has longer seat to seat timing on both sides.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 26, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
I have very few cams I don't like. I just sold an S&S 585 but it was for a specific application where it worked well. I do and have seen many combinations of parts I don't like. The reasons are many but if we are looking at the 585 VS the TR590 in a hypothetical situation without all the facts about the build the exhaust duration tells part of the story why. The porting done on the exhaust side, the exhaust valve choice, and the pipe all come into play. The simple answer is the TR590 is less exhaust sensitive. The 585 has +10° exhaust duration and opens the exhaust 5° earlier, based on numbers at .053" lift. Intakes look similar but knowing what I do about the lobes I suspect the S&S has longer seat to seat timing on both sides.
Thanks for the Information. The ex valve is 1.61 on this build and the exhaust system is currently fat cat with big bore baffle. If need be can change to louvered baffle.
With the seat time difference and more overlap I see how it gives more control to the exhaust build. With what you said and the exhaust I have what do you see in the difference? For example both cams come on about the same rpm but the 590 feels stronger or the 590 comes on about 2800 and pulls out the top them same or?
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM
Given the choice of the three and if noise was a factor I would go right to the TR590. Bonus more of a top end charge. Assumes 10.8 can be achieved. I no longer use CP Bullet series pistons and prefer Mahle pistons for the same bore. 9cc dome at 85cc chamber is perfect, just a light mill.
At 10.5 would the 590 work well +4*?
Hard to tell, but open the door sooner and close it later and first send work out the pipe then on the other side if there is more overlap you risk drawing intake down the pipe or exhaust into the intake. Either one is not good. An efi engine does not need excessive overlap and it is a risk how well it will work. It's no secret that is what HD did with their E series cams, they are very close to the earlier discontinued counterparts except lobe centers moved out wider.
An efi engine does not need excessive overlap
I bought TMan 590PS2's and noticed less overlap than the original 590's and the exhaust timing is different, intake timing and exhaust duration has slight changes also
Quote from: 838 on July 27, 2020, 08:15:46 PM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 26, 2020, 06:46:01 AM
Given the choice of the three and if noise was a factor I would go right to the TR590. Bonus more of a top end charge. Assumes 10.8 can be achieved. I no longer use CP Bullet series pistons and prefer Mahle pistons for the same bore. 9cc dome at 85cc chamber is perfect, just a light mill.
At 10.5 would the 590 work well +4*?
I wouldn't mess with it, the exhaust opening at 59 won't be real great regardless of what happened on the intake side
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2020, 06:38:58 AM
I wouldn't use the 8's, I'd use the 6's as shown in the sheets listed above. The Wood 6 cams aren't clackers like the 8's are.
[attach=0,msg1356314]
Brian is that the latest gen 590 on your chart?
Quote from: sfmichael on August 04, 2020, 09:57:58 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 26, 2020, 06:38:58 AM
I wouldn't use the 8's, I'd use the 6's as shown in the sheets listed above. The Wood 6 cams aren't clackers like the 8's are.
[attach=0,msg1356314]
Brian is that the latest gen 590 on your chart?
That's the original 590.
Please be sure to consult a professional before making your choice.
Open Close Lift Duration Centerline TDC LSA Overlap
Intake 23 43 590 246 100 0.212 105 38
Exhaust 55 15 590 250 110 0.165
https://tmanperformance.com/product/t-man-590-ps/
Quote from: C-Cat on August 05, 2020, 12:12:48 PM
Please be sure to consult a professional before making your choice.
Open Close Lift Duration Centerline TDC LSA Overlap
Intake 23 43 590 246 100 0.212 105 38
Exhaust 55 15 590 250 110 0.165
Thanks for the advice :up:
I have talked to what I believe to be professionals. Tman being one of them.
The statement was accidental. I was trying to only copy cams specs from Tmans Website.
I'm Trying to keep this in one place. I thought the fat cat would be the go to exhaust and after several calls Decided on the louvered baffle.
The problem is I've had the exhaust on order for a month now, I was just told at least another month before they come in. So what other exhaust could be used and make decent horsepower?
I'm looking at the road rage with the long muffler. Open to other options. Seems no one has the long primaries that the Fatcat has. It is possible to get the Boarzilla just not sure what I would give up going that route.
Fuel moto E-Pipe, has long primaries , and isn't noisy. Engine seems to really like the pipe. Bob
They don't show those fitting the 05 and down Dyna, I could call and check though
Quote from: Johnwesley on August 18, 2020, 10:11:02 AM
I'm Trying to keep this in one place. I thought the fat cat would be the go to exhaust and after several calls Decided on the louvered baffle.
The problem is I've had the exhaust on order for a month now, I was just told at least another month before they come in. So what other exhaust could be used and make decent horsepower?
I'm looking at the road rage with the long muffler. Open to other options. Seems no one has the long primaries that the Fatcat has. It is possible to get the Boarzilla just not sure what I would give up going that route.
I ordered a Boarzilla from D&D and had it in a week. Rush Wrath or Dragos 2 into 1 are options
Quote from: C-Cat on August 18, 2020, 05:48:35 PM
Quote from: Johnwesley on August 18, 2020, 10:11:02 AM
I'm Trying to keep this in one place. I thought the fat cat would be the go to exhaust and after several calls Decided on the louvered baffle.
The problem is I've had the exhaust on order for a month now, I was just told at least another month before they come in. So what other exhaust could be used and make decent horsepower?
I'm looking at the road rage with the long muffler. Open to other options. Seems no one has the long primaries that the Fatcat has. It is possible to get the Boarzilla just not sure what I would give up going that route.
I ordered a Boarzilla from D&D and had it in a week. Rush Wrath or Dragos 2 into 1 are options
I called Wes and he had a lot of pipe options. THat said he recently did a 103 for a guy and he insisted on the silla over the fat cat and the silla beat it at every rpm from 2,000-red line
Quote from: C-Cat on August 18, 2020, 05:48:35 PM
Quote from: Johnwesley on August 18, 2020, 10:11:02 AM
I'm Trying to keep this in one place. I thought the fat cat would be the go to exhaust and after several calls Decided on the louvered baffle.
The problem is I've had the exhaust on order for a month now, I was just told at least another month before they come in. So what other exhaust could be used and make decent horsepower?
I'm looking at the road rage with the long muffler. Open to other options. Seems no one has the long primaries that the Fatcat has. It is possible to get the Boarzilla just not sure what I would give up going that route.
I ordered a Boarzilla from D&D and had it in a week. Rush Wrath or Dragos 2 into 1 are options
I called d&d direct and they are saying another 6weeks on all pipes for an 05 dyna, so I am going the quite direction and hope it doesn't hurt performance to much. Supermeg is what I have ordered now and it should ship the 1st of September.
haven't seen many dynos with this pipe to see how it works on a dyna.
Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?
Quote from: 838 on August 27, 2020, 07:26:24 PM
Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?
I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart :) everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are
55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing
Quote from: Johnwesley on August 27, 2020, 09:21:42 PM
Quote from: 838 on August 27, 2020, 07:26:24 PM
Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?
I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart :) everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are
55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing
Almost the same build I did a couple of years ago.It's been at 98" for 10 years.
I went with the Woods 9B after being recommended by the person doing my heads.
Runs like a scalded dog.I couldn't be happier.But I was going for high Horsepower this time 123/118.
Coff 06
At 10 8:1 9B isn't a good fit. Woods 8 for all around curve. TMan 590 will get it done mid and top of the curve.
Quote from: Johnwesley on July 24, 2020, 06:13:04 AM
I don't always have 91 available. Like the last trip the station we stopped at was out of 91 next station only had 87 so a tank full went in and the next station was 60 miles away. Never two up and I'm about 220lbs.
would like to know yours thoughts
My thoughts
Don't overdo it with ccp, I live in joe lyons area too so I understand the fuel factor and what impact it'll have on your spark advance tables
I run a mackie 598 at 10.8 and love it. S&s hp103 would be another that I'd look at. Just my thoughts:)
Quote from: Johnwesley on August 27, 2020, 09:21:42 PM
Quote from: 838 on August 27, 2020, 07:26:24 PM
Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?
I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart :) everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are
55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing
Let the guy who ported your heads and/or the dyno operator who will be tuning the build help you with cam selection based on the rest of your parts and what they have seen work best in the past. And let us know what they say :)
I ran the old Tman 590 at a little over 10.5:1. in a 110 for a long time. Was a great touring cam. But 10.8:1 is pushing it to TR's limit, tho he likes to push it a bit :teeth: Gotta think about possible gas and high air temps. My personal experience experience with the Mackie 598 is it likes higher compression like 11:1, and a bigger motor. :teeth:
Quote from: 838 on August 28, 2020, 07:51:34 AM
Quote from: Johnwesley on August 27, 2020, 09:21:42 PM
Quote from: 838 on August 27, 2020, 07:26:24 PM
Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?
I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart :) everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are
55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing
Let the guy who ported your heads and/or the dyno operator who will be tuning the build help you with cam selection based on the rest of your parts and what they have seen work best in the past. And let us know what they say :)
Depending on who the head guy and tuner is, this is good advice on where to get good information.
Quote from: 838 on August 28, 2020, 07:51:34 AM
Quote from: Johnwesley on August 27, 2020, 09:21:42 PM
Quote from: 838 on August 27, 2020, 07:26:24 PM
Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?
I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart :) everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are
55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing
Let the guy who ported your heads and/or the dyno operator who will be tuning the build help you with cam selection based on the rest of your parts and what they have seen work best in the past. And let us know what they say :)
Well for the record the head porter recommends 585 and the tuner recommends s&s 625. The tuner showed some dyno runs of 98" bikes and the 625 Joe also though the hp103 would be worth a look as an in between cam from the 585 and 625. The timing on the ho103 is unlike any other cam s&s makes. I've heard good things about it though.
Another cam there is not a lot of info on is the Rivas 584 26/46 50/22 which has the same timing on the intake as the 9b with +4 and looks similar to the 999-6a cam with a little different exhaust timing. Very similar to the rs577 as well. That has more overlap than the other cams recommended at 48*
I run my 9B with a +4* @11.4/1......image that :smiled: Coff 06
I am amazed at the conviction people have while comparing these cams and the have no idea what the seat to seat duration is. No offense intended, just an observation. Flipping around brands such as Woods, S&S, Rivas and others. The lobes can resemble industrial engine ramps or super stock NHRA cam lobes or anything in between. Ever wonder about disparities in the compression calculations? This is part of the story why.
I think most are going by personal experience with cams they've run, as I was.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 28, 2020, 05:19:39 PM
I am amazed at the conviction people have while comparing these cams and the have no idea what the seat to seat duration is. No offense intended, just an observation. Flipping around brands such as Woods, S&S, Rivas and others. The lobes can resemble industrial engine ramps or super stock NHRA cam lobes or anything in between. Ever wonder about disparities in the compression calculations? This is part of the story why.
A lot different but not something that is available to the public. Seat to seat will tell a different story for sure. How is one to find out that info unless it's available to the general pubic? I for one am all ears if anyone is willing to talk that out.
It would be nice to know for example Is a 585 ramp is so gentle that the ccp is lower than one would expect. On my numbers it shows 204ccp which maybe a concern for that tank of 87, but if it comes in closer to 198 then that makes the build seem easier for that cross country trip.
Its a great question John. Yesterday I was asked about Harleys 267 cam. I had known of only a few that have run them and they must have fast ramps because they complained they were noisy. The person I had the discussion with said without a cam doctor how would we know? I said set the cam up between centers in a lathe with a good digital travel indicator, Mitutoyo my choice, on the tool post and plot the lift curve. Use a degree wheel to be able to know the degree increments. You will not know the cams timing, lobe centers, but you can plot the profile of the lobe at increments you decide. So we will do this and compare it to the 266 which he runs already. I realize this does not fill in all the blanks but it sure would tell the story how a Woods 8 compared to an Andrews TW55 has 36° VS 42° overlap with nearly identical .053 lift timing numbers.
Ooh, you mentioned my cam, the Andrews 55! I have a lot of fun with them. What would be the difference in performance, or maybe the question is, in riding characteristics between the 55 and the 8? And, would the heads be set up differently for each?
What is your tolerance for noise? We are comparing extremes. Andrews older lobes VS woods older lobes.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 29, 2020, 06:58:17 AM
Its a great question John. Yesterday I was asked about Harleys 267 cam. I had known of only a few that have run them and they must have fast ramps because they complained they were noisy. The person I had the discussion with said without a cam doctor how would we know? I said set the cam up between centers in a lathe with a good digital travel indicator, Mitutoyo my choice, on the tool post and plot the lift curve. Use a degree wheel to be able to know the degree increments. You will not know the cams timing, lobe centers, but you can plot the profile of the lobe at increments you decide. So we will do this and compare it to the 266 which he runs already. I realize this does not fill in all the blanks but it sure would tell the story how a Woods 8 compared to an Andrews TW55 has 36° VS 42° overlap with nearly identical .053 lift timing numbers.
Don, IMO the problem I see is that method requires at least access (if not outright ownership) of all of those cams you would be comparing. That would be prohibitive. I believe that is why most that are investigating cam choices (myself included) default to dyno graphs. The trick there is to recognize the supporting components like TB, valve size, porting / flow characteristics, compression, exhaust (and even gearing) and the total influence or differences these things bring to the table.
If you know the TDC lift, you now have a relatively close starting point to understand where the lobe is with the crankshaft rotation / piston height from that point forward. You can get a very good idea as to what is going on before you even put them in a motor. These are TTS-150's.
[attach=0]
Quote from: kd on August 29, 2020, 07:52:04 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 29, 2020, 06:58:17 AM
Its a great question John. Yesterday I was asked about Harleys 267 cam. I had known of only a few that have run them and they must have fast ramps because they complained they were noisy. The person I had the discussion with said without a cam doctor how would we know? I said set the cam up between centers in a lathe with a good digital travel indicator, Mitutoyo my choice, on the tool post and plot the lift curve. Use a degree wheel to be able to know the degree increments. You will not know the cams timing, lobe centers, but you can plot the profile of the lobe at increments you decide. So we will do this and compare it to the 266 which he runs already. I realize this does not fill in all the blanks but it sure would tell the story how a Woods 8 compared to an Andrews TW55 has 36° VS 42° overlap with nearly identical .053 lift timing numbers.
Don, IMO the problem I see is that method requires at least access (if not outright ownership) of all of those cams you would be comparing. That would be prohibitive. I believe that is why most that are investigating cam choices (myself included) default to dyno graphs. The trick there is to recognize the supporting components like TB, valve size, porting / flow characteristics, compression, exhaust (and even gearing) and the total influence or differences these things bring to the table.
:up:
On a humorous note but a bit true with all the cam wars and competition for "best cam" there ends up being a lot of cams in the mechanics bottom drawers with the fuel packs and DFOs or on Ebay.
But seriously I agree with you up to a point.
Same logic applies however. The testing must be done on the same dyno with weather conditions close to the same. This also provides a direct connection to the heads and their porting / flow characteristics. Valve sizes are just numbers out of the context of the rest. Dynos well there is no nationally recognized organization that publishes a calibration standard or even agreement of the type of dyno that is acceptable just the correction factor. The baro and temperature is compensated but relative humidity is not. So we have a defacto standard of sorts, dynojet 250I correction factor SAE software??.
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 29, 2020, 07:55:36 AM
If you know the TDC lift, you now have a relatively close starting point to understand where the lobe is with the crankshaft rotation / piston height from that point forward. You can get a very good idea as to what is going on before you even put them in a motor. These are TTS-150's.
[attach=0,msg1359976]
Good point
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 29, 2020, 07:30:08 AM
What is your tolerance for noise? We are comparing extremes. Andrews older lobes VS woods older lobes.
My tolerance for noise is pretty high. I'm running gear drive 55s from 2005, synthetic oil (Mobile V-Twin 20w-50, one of the noisier oils), it sounds like the oil was drained out about 200 miles ago when it gets hot, clattering away. Don't care, I know it's holding together fine. So I'm more interested in different riding characteristics of cams, more than actual Dyno numbers. The 55s are not that impressivee on the Dyno, and ridden improperly on the road (like a stock cam) are not earth shattering, but get them into the power band above 3500 and they wake right but up, my kind of riding style on this bike. These were recommended by my Porter, and they are exactly what I was looking for.
Just wondering how the 8 would change the riding style.
It will add torque and horsepower. Not a lot but noticeable. It likes ~10.8:1 and it will be noisy. In a few minutes we will have the "set the lifters to .140" preload crew chiming I'm sure saying it cures the noise. It does not. The birth of the TR590 was a noise reduced version of this similar cam.
Running gear drive 8's in my 110 with S&S premium lifters very quiet setup. Guess I'm lucky as most say the 8's are very loud
A big piece of the puzzle is the pipe, cams are given way too much credit for good or bad behavior when it's actually about how they play together
Take it from somebody that owns a cam test stand. Even with a dial indicator you're still not going to be able to measure a cam accurately for the kind of information you're looking for. You'll have a better idea of what is going on but you will still need to test it in your bike to know for sure. It's the same with exhausts. One works better than another with different combinations. Throttle bodies same thing. That's why you see different kits or combinations. They're trying to eliminate the guesswork.
On a side note I've seen some combinations that i swore would never work that made some big power. I've also seen some that promise big power that were total duds. That's why your dyno tuner can be your best friend. They see so many different combos that they're probably the best source for information if you're trying something new.
Or if they want you to try something different & it doesn't work out you get free dyno time. :smiled:
Agree Larry, everything must work in concert to get the best or desired results. All data that you can collect helps to recreate with some degree of confidence (luck?) with other combinations.
I've had a few that came out better than expected, and then also that didn't do what I expected. Math makes it all work. In lack of the upper end math skills to resolve all of the needed equations, we collect as much data as we can. Try to make some sense of it.
Part are coming together, with this covid mess lots of stuff in back order. Heads should be in from Illinois sometime next week. :baby:
heads came in and now waiting on cams, tb, and assorted gaskets. looking forward to getting these on the bike and letting Joe do his magic brew :potstir:
some head shots just for fun
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-T59tpsp/0/2cd6ca28/L/IMG_6868_heic-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-KPMfRnQ/0/7e57e77c/L/IMG_6869_heic-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-zWbQVrW/0/428aa4c3/L/IMG_6870_heic-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-b5DF57G/0/e5faff20/L/IMG_6872_heic-L.jpg)
Quote from: Johnwesley on September 07, 2020, 09:37:50 AM
heads came in and now waiting on cams, tb, and assorted gaskets. looking forward to getting these on the bike and letting Joe do his magic brew :potstir:
some head shots just for fun
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-T59tpsp/0/2cd6ca28/L/IMG_6868_heic-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-KPMfRnQ/0/7e57e77c/L/IMG_6869_heic-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-zWbQVrW/0/428aa4c3/L/IMG_6870_heic-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-b5DF57G/0/e5faff20/L/IMG_6872_heic-L.jpg)
What cam did you decide on?
I decided to go with the head porters recommendation and install the S&S 585. I figure he knows his heads best and what works with them. I have the 510 now at 10:1 and like them, but they run out a little early and its using some oil so need to be redone any way which is how this thread came about.
this is the rear cylinder after 10,000
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-MkFzCfd/0/03b3d46a/L/IMG_6884_heic-L.jpg)
rear piston
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-KJXVGvM/0/a8dfdddd/L/IMG_6877_heic-L.jpg)
front head
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-q4vrq9m/0/11197e80/L/IMG_6883_heic-L.jpg)
front piston
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-rJtPr3Q/0/d2501dbd/L/IMG_6885_heic-L.jpg)
front cylinder
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-vTG754n/0/29be032c/L/IMG_6882_heic-L.jpg)
(//)
(//)
I clayed the piston to head clearance with an old 0.030 HG and to 0.036 squish which verified my crude measurement of 0.006 in the hole. That puts me at 200ccp seems like it should work out well. I ordered another set of rings for the rear since I filed a little much on the compression ring. Note to self do not multi task on detail work :doh:
so far the parts in this build looks much better than the set up before.
:up:
200ccp with a good tune makes for a nice running and very responsive engine
After reading this thread I am happy to see you finally decided to listen to one person, and who is actually providing a major part of your build.....your heads.
I did my research, talked to different vendors, and chose one and rolled. I hooked up with Don from HD Street Performance. I told him what I wanted from the build and my riding style, and did everything he told me to do. I did most of the labor of the build myself but chose all the parts Don recommended and his headwork. It turned out great. It is what I recommend to anyone.
:agree:
done a few heat cycles, no leaks no odd noise, actually sounds really good. Full tank of local gas and an appointment with Joe on Tuesday morning. I'll let you know how it all turns out, good bad or otherwise. I like it when someone starts a thread and finishes up with how it turns out. So I'll do the same :up:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-tHKFbVb/0/44f9b45a/L/IMG_7068_heic-L.jpg)
Looking forward to seeing your results. Good luck!
Nice job John. It's a beautiful looking bike. You have good taste and dare to be different. :up: :up:
Quote from: kd on October 02, 2020, 04:28:47 PM
Nice job John. It's a beautiful looking bike. You have good taste and dare to be different. :up: :up:
Agree! You definitely made that bike your own... and it looks bitchen! Hope it runs as good as it looks for ya!
love the bike! :up: :up:
That's going to a fun bike. :up:
Thanks I'm at joes now and prelim hp is 115 and he's working the timing now. Won't be long I should have the final sheet. The heads are pulling through 6,000 rpms. I'm excited to say the least.
Quote from: 838 on October 02, 2020, 05:20:27 PM
Quote from: kd on October 02, 2020, 04:28:47 PM
Nice job John. It's a beautiful looking bike. You have good taste and dare to be different. :up: :up:
Agree! You definitely made that bike your own... and it looks bitchen! Hope it runs as good as it looks for ya!
:agree: congrats
She's all done and loaded in the trailer. 120hp and 108 tq. Going to be a fun little sport touring bike.
Here's the curves
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Fxd-superglide-2005/Fxdi-/i-ndxfDvh/0/de1bed96/L/28F16C65-08D5-4493-964C-0E89CDA82A4A-L.jpg)
:up: nice.
That looks good! 6400 peak HP is phenomenal! Nice job 👍
1.23 HP / CU IN is damn fine. It builds steady throughout the rpm range and provides max available torque (107 / 109 FT LBs) from the OP's stated desired rpm range of 3000 + . It looks like a home run to me.
I am guessing the difference will be noticable! :hyst:
LOVE IT!!!! :bike:
Quote from: Johnwesley on October 06, 2020, 02:38:08 PM
Thanks I'm at joes now and prelim hp is 115 and he's working the timing now. Won't be long I should have the final sheet. The heads are pulling through 6,000 rpms. I'm excited to say the least.
wow....a tuner that actually adjust the timing...... :doh: