I have a nasty clack going on in the 2100-2700 RPM range. It has been there for the last 15-20k or so, and progressively getting louder. I think I have narrowed the issue to some sort of wear in the rockers, shaft, or holder. I thought about measuring for shims, but the more I read about shims, the more I read about worn shafts. Now if the shafts themselves are causing this, wouldn't it be wise to assume that the rocker arm bushing itself would wear out before the shaft would, since it's a bronze type of bushing? Or do these parts wear rather evenly. Should just say screw it and change out both the rockers and the shafts? I have smith brothers pushrods and stock tubes, and no signs of rubbing. I also have rocker lockers installed, and another set ready just in case. Any suggestions? Please, no "turn the radio up", "use earplugs", etc, as I'm really trying to find a reason for this. Wife has a 2015 switchback which is actually very quiet in the valve train dept. No clack at any RPM on that bike. Thanx in advance
Have you considered simply removing the rocker covers, pulling the rockers with their supports and inspecting them?
Are you sure it's not a lifter.
Quote from: turboprop on September 24, 2020, 08:51:50 AM
Have you considered simply removing the rocker covers, pulling the rockers with their supports and inspecting them?
Yes, I was trying to see if there was a pattern that Was usually the culprit before I went in. I have shims already I can use. But my question was if I find the rockers bad, would it (Usually) be the shaft, the rocker bushings, or both.
Quote from: tdrglide on September 24, 2020, 09:20:34 AM
Are you sure it's not a lifter.
Yes, it's definitely coming from the top end. Currently have S&S premium lifters installed.
If you're going to change out the rocker arms and rocker arm shafts, also change out the rocker support bracket.
Quick check is to swap intake and exhaust shafts- this puts the wear side 180° from current position, and should reveal any excessive shaft/bushing wear.
I would avoid shims. Band-aid at best. If you think you need them, something else is worn.
If replacing rocker arms, replace shafts. They are cheap enough.
Good idea about swapping the shafts as a test, I need to remember that one should the occasion arise.
Is this a twin cam?
Not to hi-jack the post... but, Who rebuilds rocker arms, and then hones them to fit on a new shaft for Twin Cams?
I simply don't have the tools to do this job myself.
So you swap the shafts, button it up and ride? Or will it show itself another way?
Yes, sorry, its a 103 twin cam.
Yes, you can, but inspect first. Might be something obvious. Service wear limits are in the FSM. :rtfb:
Quote from: Wood on September 24, 2020, 02:48:02 PM
Not to hi-jack the post... but, Who rebuilds rocker arms, and then hones them to fit on a new shaft for Twin Cams?
I simply don't have the tools to do this job myself.
I do.
Quote from: tdrglide on September 24, 2020, 04:29:44 PM
Yes, you can, but inspect first. Might be something obvious. Service wear limits are in the FSM. :rtfb:
I have the FSM.
Was not trying to offend. Let us know what you find
None taken. I am hoping to crack into it this weekend.
A lifter that is acting up, can make someone suspect that the culprit is in the rocker cover.
What you are hearing when that occurs is lash between the pushrod, and rocker arm cup, inside an aluminum echo chamber.
Another mis-diagnosed valvetrain noise can stem from the use of roller tip rocker arms, on occasion.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on September 25, 2020, 04:25:49 AM
A lifter that is acting up, can make someone suspect that the culprit is in the rocker cover.
What you are hearing when that occurs is lash between the pushrod, and rocker arm cup, inside an aluminum echo chamber.
Another mis-diagnosed valvetrain noise can stem from the use of roller tip rocker arms, on occasion.
If that were the case, wouldn't it be noisy at all RPM's?
No rollers on this. All stock except for the pushrods.
QuoteAll stock except for the pushrods.
Curious what the reason was to change the pushrods?
Quote from: chaos901 on September 25, 2020, 10:49:25 AM
QuoteAll stock except for the pushrods.
Curious what the reason was to change the pushrods?
They were .20 longer because the base of the Andrews 48's were .20 smaller. In the big picture it prolly would not have mattered, but I wanted to keep it as close to stock geometry as I could.
There are plenty of .030 over one piece 120R pushrods out there (or new if need be).
At the time Since I was upgrading from 96" to 103", I figured I would go ahead and use a one piece rod instead of adjustables, since I had everything off anyhow.
Tore down the rocker covers and assembly. Side play measured at .017 and .018 Within limits, I know, but closer to .025 than .003. I found no evidence of rubbing on the pushrod tubes, removed all 4 pushrods to make sure. Pics included here:
[attach=0,msg1363313] [attach=1,msg1363313]
You can see the wear marks on the rocker arm in the previous post, and see the shaft in this one. Recommendations? Shims? New Arms? Shafts? Leave alone? ( Note: Rocker Lockers were installed)
[attach=0,msg1363315]
[attach=1,msg1363315]
It appears they are literally rocking on the shaft from the witness marks in your pics. May be as a result of poor oiling, heat or both. I think I would be doing something before reinstalling them.
Such as? I am at a loss here. There is oil in both heads, so I know at least some oil is getting up there, and the rockers themselves were very oily. Are the parts bad as well?
Seeing the wear marks is one thing, feeling the wear is something else. If you run you finger nail across the wear marks do you feel anything? If not, they are probably ok.
It appears like the marks on the end of the rocker look as though it is rocking because the wear is not across the whole face. Similarly the wear on the shaft is not full length and more pronounced at outer extremes of the bushing contact marks. One end even looks a little scored as if it ran dry. Granted, this is from pics only. Can you feel the marks with your finger nail? It doesn't take much oil to keep them happy. How is the bushing fit?
What weight are the valve springs? Heavy springs could influence that too.
I cant feel anything on them, nothing catches my nail. Valve springs are stock beehive. Bushing seems to fit ok, the only thing I thought was alittle loose was the rocker to bracket clearance. I couldn't feel a radial movement in the arm when on the shaft.
So upon reading up, I see the clearance is .003 to .013, with.025 max. I'm at .017 and .018. Shim it?
So I shimmed it with .010 shims. brought the readings down to .007. While not where I wanted it, it has seemed to reduce the clack that it had above 2500.Shimmed on the non thrust side of each rocker. I am thinking if they were tighter than it would be even quieter. I also installed rocker lockers on all 4 of the bolts this time just because, well, I had them. I will know more when I get the tank back on and actually ride it.
If you fancy living close to the edge you could try this based on the theory that all engines get hot and things expand:-
In the 1960s Triumph twins used what we call 'Thackery washers' and you probably call 'double coil washers' to control the side play on the rocker arms.
The racing department saw them as unnecessary friction creators.
They started shimming them instead.
Eventually they settled on NIL play when cold, and when the engine got hot there was enough expansion of the rocker box to prevent seizure even under severe racing conditions.
The rocker arms in my TC88 are shimmed to the tight side of the spec. The bike is due a winter top-end rebuild and rebore so I'll find out what if any mess is in there! No nasty noises anyway.
Has your tighter end play reduced any of top end noise?
Top end noise has never been a big problem on my 99 bike.
You can hear the sewing machine noises, I suppose you might consider it too loud.
With 65,000 miles on the clock assorted rattles are getting louder but nothing I would call 'loud'. More a 'guess what I'm doing this winter' type of thing.
Now when the big end (crankpin) was deteriorating that was very noticeable! And it made loud noises for a very long time (years) until I had no choice but to take everything apart to find out what it was.
Finding and getting rid of top-end noise does seem to need a lot of very detailed inspection to get to the root cause of it.
The manual gives you wear limits and tolerances but what would you have to do so you could 'blue-print' it to remove all the production variances?
Rocker lockers fixed the terminal sounding racket from the top end of my Sportster though!
The "sewing machine" noises don't bother me at all, that's just nature if the beast. This noise was a standout tapping noise that happened between 2-3k rpms. I know it's prolly not hurting anything so to speak, but it simply drives me crazy to hear it, notwithstanding the wife's 103 is mouse quiet. Problem is, with blueprint, if I order a new set of stands from Harley, and say some new shafts and rockers, I'll never know what I'll get measurement wise until it all comes in the mail. Hard to send back if technically, by the book good.
That does not look that bad, take some measurements. I think you have problems elsewhere. What valve springs are you running?
I measured the rocker clearance as shown in the pics. I couldn't fit a .015 shim so I just went with a .010 to drop it down to .007. Springs are stock HD beehives. Nothing has been done to the heads. Using SS premium lifters, Smith bro's pushrods, Andrews 48 cam (the tap is different than the normal "cam noise"), and the bike runs great, no oil usage or excess blowby, more than enough power, and I don't beat on it.
When you disassemble to check this winter consider machining the rocker stands and dressing the ends of the rockers. Following that, you will have control of the dimension and be able to select appropriate shims to get to the best fit.
I dont think side clearance is the problem either.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 07, 2020, 09:10:05 AM
I dont think side clearance is the problem either.
I don't necessarily either. I offered the suggestion because the OP mentioned purchasing new rockers that may or may not be better to put his mind at ease. For piece of mind, blueprinting the rocker assemblies to minimum end play will put that dog to rest and also increase the life of his valve train by starting out with tighter tolerances.
Your method is great and I have done it exactly that way, I just have gone there before and failed reducing noise.
The number of successful reports I hear of shimming reducing noise are so low it leads me to believe they're coincidental... something else done in the process actually helped. Loosening & relocating the supports, adjusting pushrods, etc. etc. and the shimming gets the credit.
Well, coincidentally or not, if the noise goes away, that's all I care. There is a reason it's there, just like the reason for your product. Maybe the fact that I put the lockers in all four holes did it. Maybe the removal and install of the rocker assy? Maybe the shims. All I know, is that when I started it up, the tapping was pretty much gone. We still have to see if it's gone when riding down the road, but if it is, I'll be happy nonetheless.
OK then list the year model and all mods done to the motor. This is the best place to start.
2009 ultra classic. Factory take off 103 heads, cylinders. Andrews 48 cam, smith brothers push rods, stock rockers, power vision tuner, stock bottom end, screaming eagle oil pump, stock cam plate, chain and tensioners. Stock compensator. Stock Tranny, stock header (no cat in '09), fuel moto slip ons. Rocker lockers. S&S premium lifters. Can't think of anything else.
First place I would look is pushrod rubbing the inner upper tubes. If they do the pushrod will jump out of the socket. Smiths bros has some rods that are slim, others not. The symptoms only present in that one rpm range which could be just dynamics of fast lift rate cams and lofting. Was this top end ever run with stock cams? Is the problem is worse cold? Or hot? That tells more. The oil is high viscosity so oil is not an issue.
Honestly, that's what I thought first, and is the original reason to removed the rocker arms. That's when I measured the side play and went that route. The tubes show no signs of touch, and no witness marks in any of the pushrods. As for the tap, it pretty much does it all the time, perhaps slightly louder when fully hot, as the viscosity doesn't hide it as much. Also like to say thank you for your input and help with this. It may be just the "way it is", just to me, I hear the ramp noise, but the tick seems separate from that, if that makes sense.
I tried to make a video of the noise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLsgykk4xmE&feature=youtu.be
Would a single grade 60 or 70 weight mineral oil, reveal a lifter not holding up?
Have you tried swapping lifters front to back, see if the tapping moves with?
Also measured pushrod length?
I have not swapped lifters. I figured if I go that far I would just replace them, have said that, this was why I went with the S&S premium ones.
I do not remember the exact measurements, except that I ordered both .020 longer than what I had.
been goin thru the same thing with my front head 103. took the cover off and turned the motor over to tdc. the intake valve spring collar was so close i couldn't get a feelers gauge in there. took apart and ground the rocker box around the holdown boss and the noise disappeared. good luck!
Thank you! Something else to check!
It is worth checking. I had an evo rocker cover that would deform when hot and the clacking was unbearable. There were no real witness marks in the hard chrome but what appeared like a black smudge. A slight touch with a dremel (just enough to go the depth of the chrome) and it was church mouse quiet.
Even with the beehive springs, since the are smaller collars at the top?
Quote from: Propflux01 on October 15, 2020, 06:20:19 AM
Even with the beehive springs, since the are smaller collars at the top?
If that question was meant for me, I was referring to rocker "cover" contact from the rocker arm.
Quote from: kd on October 15, 2020, 07:04:23 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on October 15, 2020, 06:20:19 AM
Even with the beehive springs, since the are smaller collars at the top?
If that question was meant for me, I was referring to rocker "cover" contact from the rocker arm.
I check there with clay and the bottom rocker box for clearance with feeler gauges and die grinder has required. Did a little grinding on my stock covers for S&S 585 with 1.9/1.6 valve heads done for 600 lift.
Comp cams lifters with stock pushrods. Valve train is quiet. Noise carries in these engines and it dont take much to make it some times. Bob
A question for my continuing education, should anybody know.
If the rocker is hitting the bottom of the cover, would you be able to feel it with say say a finger on top of the cover and the engine at idle? I would think you could.
A rocker can make a hell of a racket and just barely be making contact. That was my experience. There was no witness mark so it went back together. After a couple hundred miles the cover came off again and a light smudge (no dent) was barely noticeable. A slight buff through the chrome was all it took to clear the rocker and become whisper quiet. BTW, it was a front intake.
Quote from: chaos901 on October 15, 2020, 12:36:19 PM
A question for my continuing education, should anybody know.
If the rocker is hitting the bottom of the cover, would you be able to feel it with say say a finger on top of the cover and the engine at idle? I would think you could.
My lower cover was making contact/ to close in the corners with the spring compressed . Wasnt the rocker that was the problem. Bob
I've got s/e heads on mine. there was no clearance. worth the time to check at least that will be off the list.
I have a set of S&S heads, new fueling lifters, gear drive 551 cams and rocker lockers in a 2010 Ultra. Could there be this same issue happening with it? Very loud ticking. I would have thought it would have had less mechanical noise.
Quote from: Scooter Trash on October 20, 2020, 06:45:37 AM
I have a set of S&S heads, new fueling lifters, gear drive 551 cams and rocker lockers in a 2010 Ultra. Could there be this same issue happening with it? Very loud ticking. I would have thought it would have had less mechanical noise.
You will never know without checking. Checking for clearance or interference is all part of a proper engine checks before assembly, both my lower boxes needed to be ground to attain clearance in the corners. Bob