HarleyTechTalk

It appears they are literally rocking on the shaft from the witness marks in your pics.  May be as a result of poor oiling, heat or both.  I think I would be doing something before reinstalling them.

Such as? I am at a loss here. There is oil in both heads, so I know at least some oil is getting up there, and the rockers themselves were very oily. Are the parts bad as well?

Seeing the wear marks is one thing, feeling the wear is something else. If you run you finger nail across the wear marks do you feel anything? If not, they are probably ok.

It appears like the marks on the end of the rocker look as though it is rocking because the wear is not across the whole face.  Similarly the wear on the shaft is not full length and more pronounced at outer extremes of the bushing contact marks.  One end even looks a little scored as if it ran dry. Granted, this is from pics only.  Can you feel the marks with your finger nail? It doesn't take much oil to keep them happy.  How is the bushing fit?

What weight are the valve springs?  Heavy springs could influence that too.

I cant feel anything on them, nothing catches my nail. Valve springs are stock beehive. Bushing seems to fit ok, the only thing I thought was alittle loose was the rocker to bracket clearance. I couldn't feel a radial movement in the arm when on the shaft.

So upon reading up, I see the clearance is .003 to .013, with.025 max. I'm at .017 and .018. Shim it?

So I shimmed it with .010 shims. brought the readings down to .007. While not where I wanted it, it has seemed to reduce the clack that it had above 2500.Shimmed on the non thrust side of each rocker. I am thinking if they were tighter than it would be even quieter. I also installed rocker lockers on all 4 of the bolts this time just because, well, I had them. I will know more when I get the tank back on and actually ride it.

If you fancy living close to the edge you could try this based on the theory that all engines get hot and things expand:-

In the 1960s Triumph twins used what we call 'Thackery washers' and you probably call 'double coil washers' to control the side play on the rocker arms.
The racing department saw them as unnecessary friction creators.
They started shimming them instead.
Eventually they settled on NIL play when cold, and when the engine got hot there was enough expansion of the rocker box to prevent seizure even under severe racing conditions.

The rocker arms in my TC88 are shimmed to the tight side of the spec. The bike is due a winter top-end rebuild and rebore so I'll find out what if any mess is in there! No nasty noises anyway.

Has your tighter end play reduced any of top end noise?

Top end noise has never been a big problem on my 99 bike.
You can hear the sewing machine noises, I suppose you might consider it too loud.
With 65,000 miles on the clock assorted rattles are getting louder but nothing I would call 'loud'. More a 'guess what I'm doing this winter' type of thing.
Now when the big end (crankpin) was deteriorating that was very noticeable! And it made loud noises for a very long time (years) until I had no choice but to take everything apart to find out what it was.

Finding and getting rid of top-end noise does seem to need a lot of very detailed inspection to get to the root cause of it.
The manual gives you wear limits and tolerances but what would you have to do so you could 'blue-print' it to remove all the production variances?

Rocker lockers fixed the terminal sounding racket from the top end of my Sportster though!

The "sewing machine" noises don't bother me at all, that's just nature if the beast. This noise was a standout tapping noise that happened between 2-3k rpms. I know it's prolly not hurting anything so to speak, but it simply drives me crazy to hear it, notwithstanding the wife's 103 is mouse quiet. Problem is, with blueprint, if I order a new set of stands from Harley, and say some new shafts and rockers, I'll never know what I'll get measurement wise until it all comes in the mail. Hard to send back if technically, by the book good.

That does not look that bad, take some measurements.  I think you have problems elsewhere. What valve springs are you running?

I measured the rocker clearance as shown in the pics. I couldn't fit a .015 shim so I just went with a .010 to drop it down to .007. Springs are stock HD beehives. Nothing has been done to the heads. Using SS premium lifters, Smith bro's pushrods, Andrews 48 cam (the tap is different than the normal "cam noise"), and the bike runs great, no oil usage or excess blowby, more than enough power, and I don't beat on it.

When you disassemble to check this winter consider machining the rocker stands and dressing the ends of the rockers. Following that, you will have control of the dimension and be able to select appropriate shims to get to the best fit.

I dont think side clearance is the problem either.

Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 07, 2020, 09:10:05 AM
I dont think side clearance is the problem either.

I don't necessarily either.  I offered the suggestion because the OP mentioned purchasing new rockers that may or may not be better to put his mind at ease.  For piece of mind, blueprinting the rocker assemblies to minimum end play will put that dog to rest and also increase the life of his valve train by starting out with tighter tolerances.

Your method is great and I have done it exactly that way, I just have gone there before and failed reducing noise.

The number of successful reports I hear of shimming reducing noise are so low it leads me to believe they're coincidental... something else done in the process actually helped. Loosening & relocating the supports, adjusting pushrods, etc. etc. and the shimming gets the credit.

Well, coincidentally or not, if the noise goes away, that's all I care. There is a reason it's there, just like the reason for your product. Maybe the fact that I put the lockers in all four holes did it. Maybe the removal and install of the rocker assy? Maybe the shims. All I know, is that when I started it up, the tapping was pretty much gone. We still have to see if it's gone when riding down the road, but if it is, I'll be happy nonetheless.

OK then list the year model and all mods done to the motor. This is the best place to start.

2009 ultra classic. Factory take off 103 heads, cylinders. Andrews 48 cam, smith brothers push rods, stock rockers, power vision tuner, stock bottom end, screaming eagle oil pump, stock cam plate, chain and tensioners. Stock compensator. Stock Tranny, stock header (no cat in '09), fuel moto slip ons. Rocker lockers. S&S premium lifters. Can't think of anything else.

First place I would look is pushrod rubbing the inner upper tubes. If they do the pushrod will jump out of the socket. Smiths bros has some rods that are slim, others not. The symptoms only present in that one rpm range which could be just dynamics of fast lift rate cams and lofting. Was this top end ever run with stock cams? Is the problem is worse cold? Or hot? That tells more. The oil is high viscosity so oil is not an issue.

Honestly, that's what I thought first, and is the original reason to removed the rocker arms. That's when I measured the side play and went that route. The tubes show no signs of touch, and no witness marks in any of the pushrods. As for the tap, it pretty much does it all the time, perhaps slightly louder when fully hot, as the viscosity doesn't hide it as much. Also like to say thank you for your input and help with this. It may be just the "way it is", just to me, I hear the ramp noise, but the tick seems separate from that, if that makes sense.

I tried to make a video of the noise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLsgykk4xmE&feature=youtu.be

Would a single grade 60 or 70 weight mineral oil, reveal a lifter not holding up?