Guy on another forum says he watched a bunch of '21s being unloaded, not a hydro clutch in the group.... even baggers.
Guess that fixes the transfer issue.
that's interesting - when do the new bikes 'officially' hit the showrooms?
ECM's have a different look as well. Single plug again
Quote from: sfmichael on January 05, 2021, 08:10:56 PM
that's interesting - when do the new bikes 'officially' hit the showrooms?
Today!! Lots of dealerships took in 2021 stock this afternoon.. They definitely went back to a clutch cable and a new ECM from Bosh
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on January 05, 2021, 07:29:31 PM
Guy on another forum says he watched a bunch of '21s being unloaded, not a hydro clutch in the group.... even baggers.
Guess that fixes the transfer issue.
That's good. There was a serious lacking of how do I adjust my clutch lately. :hyst:
Ron
Is the slipper clutch still being used?
Leave it up to Harley to go backwards on the clutch. It amazes me they can make a hydraulic clutch work right. That should make the old school people happy.
I don't consider myself old school, but I never saw the benefit of the hydraulic clutch. The cable clutch had the ability to adjust to preference and the hydraulic didn't reduce effort or add reliability, so it's contribution was added complexity and cost. If it goes back to the feel of the pre-rushmore cable clutch, I'll welcome it on my next bike.
I'm guessing it cheaper to produce a cable clutch over a hydraulic.
They hydraulic units back in 2004 were much easier pull than the cable actuated, and worked flawlessly. Mine had 96,000 miles on it when the bike was sold. Changed the DOT 5 once. I believe that's why I never experienced the increased effort at high RPM with a VPP that everyone talks about.
I prefer the clutch cable. That is a good move in my opinion.
Quote from: calif phil on January 06, 2021, 07:06:11 AM
I prefer the clutch cable. That is a good move in my opinion.
I tend to agree. I think the hydro clutches, besides being problematic from the get-go, were not user friendly for many people with smaller hands. I personally hated the engagement point being so far out.
My 15 Limited Low came with the juice/slipper clutch.... The lever pull is considerably less than a cable/standard clutch setup.
My last 3 oem hydro clutches sucked,
On my 19 cvo I went non-oem and it is nicer than my cable clutch on my other bikes.
JMHO
:potstir:
:up: That's great news to me. I love being able to adjust the clutch for my personal preference.
A step backwards IMO.
One less thing to adjust, stays consistant, always releases at the same point. Plus I never had any issues with where the clutch released in relation to the lever like some do.
About half the time I would adjust the cable I would have to mess with it a second time.
Quote from: calif phil on January 06, 2021, 07:06:11 AM
I prefer the clutch cable. That is a good move in my opinion.
I agree 100%, I never saw a single advantage to the hydraulic setup & I hate the feel of them.
~John
I have my 1st hydro clutch in 40 years and love it. I installed the AIM slave unit, loaded up on spring pressure to hold almost 150 hp and can pull the clutch lever in with two fingers!
Quote from: BigT on January 06, 2021, 03:09:15 PM
I have my 1st hydro clutch in 40 years and love it. I installed the AIM slave unit, loaded up on spring pressure to hold almost 150 hp and can pull the clutch lever in with two fingers!
If it's possible, why can't it come from the factory like that then?
Quote from: kd on January 06, 2021, 03:11:54 PM
Quote from: BigT on January 06, 2021, 03:09:15 PM
I have my 1st hydro clutch in 40 years and love it. I installed the AIM slave unit, loaded up on spring pressure to hold almost 150 hp and can pull the clutch lever in with two fingers!
If it's possible, why can't it come from the factory like that then?
Because someone at HD designed it?
You could ask that question about much of the engineering from HD!
Hyd Clutch is only on Trikes till half year, then removed. BOSH ECM and 17mm Titania O2 w/ Variable Resistor; Voltage supplied by the ECM.
Quote from: Pirsch Fire Wagon on January 06, 2021, 06:09:27 PM
Hyd Clutch is only on Trikes till half year, then removed. BOSH ECM and 17mm Titania O2 w/ Variable Resistor; Voltage supplied by the ECM.
Quote from: Jamie Long on January 06, 2021, 04:36:56 PM
Model 2021 FLH/FLT Touring platform has received several key updates relative to electrical hardware among other changes. We'll post more info as it comes available.
new Delphi MT22 ECM
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1b2H7LT/ECM1.jpg)
new ISO 19689 OBD data port replaces the current 6 pin data connector
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z54DkGv0/OBDplug.jpg)
other 2021 FLH/FLT notes:
- RDRS is now standard on all models except Electra Glide Standard, base Street Glide, base Road Glide, and base Road King
- same 12mm heated O2 sensors as previous models
- same exhaust system fitment as previous models
- cable clutch actuation on each of the models we inspected including Tri Glide
My last 7 Harleys have had the Hydraulic clutch. I much prefer it to the cable. Especially on built motors. I feel its a stop backwards, and obviously a cost cutting measure for the MoCo.
Will it still be slip and assist clutch, or we going backwards there also?
I'am surprise that didn't go with a OBD2 connector, I think in Europe all bikes have to be OBD2 now. A lot of other bikes switch over all ready. I guess it's a Harley thing.
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 07, 2021, 03:33:33 AM
My last 7 Harleys have had the Hydraulic clutch. I much prefer it to the cable. Especially on built motors. I feel its a stop backwards, and obviously a cost cutting measure for the MoCo.
Will it still be slip and assist clutch, or we going backwards there also?
I was thinking they're trying to get out of the liability also besides the cost ordeal. Recalls with the master cylinders where the clutch wouldn't disengage, transfer issues and whatever else.
I got hyd clutches on a 2008 and 2010 Ultras and I like them, once I figured out I needed to change the fluid on the regular basis I never had any issues.
Quote from: chaos901 on January 08, 2021, 08:41:29 AM
I got hyd clutches on a 2008 and 2010 Ultras and I like them, once I figured out I needed to change the fluid on the regular basis I never had any issues.
Not the same clutch as the newer Harleys
I looked at new 21 yesterday , Nice easy pull on the bagger cable clutch. Best thing H-D did with all the issues they had with the wet one. Never thought the wet one was any improvement, didn't like the engagement point or the lever moving in on it's own as RPM went up threw the gears. Now get rid of the TBWire and i might be pulling the $$$ out. Other than the cable and paint 21'S are same as 2020 so says the sales guy.
At my age & mindset I'll most likely never own an M8 or anything newer than my 2012 Road King. But wasn't one issue with Transmission Oil Migration more common with the Hydraulic Clutch bikes?
My passion is in Vintage Harleys, I tell people the RK is just transportation...
I believe it was only the hyd. clutch bikes. :wink:
Transmission oil migration was M8 hydraulic clutch bikes.
Do not recall it happening with TC hydraulic clutch bikes.
My dealer tech says the cables are two piece and self adjusting. So when one frays up by the handle the upper half can be replaced in about ten minutes.
I think they started with does on the 18 and later ST's and are self adjusters.
Quote from: Buglet on January 11, 2021, 11:04:42 AM
I think they started with does on the 18 and later ST's and are self adjusters.
2018 :up:
(https://i.imgur.com/ViKGg6Y.jpg)
How does the self adjuster work on a cable? Sorry for asking, just can't figure that out.
I don't see it as a true "automatic adjust" function. It's more of a no wrenches needed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhLhDhKlba8) to adjust the cable free play at the handle mechanism.
I later heard that they are not self adjusting. That didn't sound right. I'm told now there is an easy access sleeve somewhere in the cable.
One thing you can not do a fine adjustment like the old cables.
My link "no wrenches needed" above will explain how it works.
If a feller were changing the bars on his bike every other week, yes the two piece cable might prove useful. As far as the easy adjust feature, my personal opinion is that it's solving a non-problem. I mean, how hard is it to adjust the "old school" clutch cable, really? As Buglet said, it appears to be difficult to adjust the lever release point to one's preference. I personally am really picky about where the release point is.
-JW
I prefer the cables. Love the infinite adjustability.
Wander how long before Harley comes out with a retro kit to replace hydraulic unit?
It'll just be a matter of ordering the late model parts that have the new part numbers and swap them out to the cable system.
Quote from: kd on January 23, 2021, 06:47:28 AM
I don't see it as a true "automatic adjust" function. It's more of a no wrenches needed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhLhDhKlba8) to adjust the cable free play at the handle mechanism.
That's kinda cool actually.
I wonder if it is backwards compatible??
~John
Harley riders want technology, until they don't. :wink: Fobs and auto locking bags OK though, LOL.
Probably every other motorcycle company has successfully used hydraulic actuated clutches for years now. Might as well put kick start only on 'em .
Quote from: Deye76 on January 26, 2021, 06:56:29 AM
Harley riders want technology, until they don't. :wink: Fobs and auto locking bags OK though, LOL.
Probably every other motorcycle company has successfully used hydraulic actuated clutches for years now. Might as well put kick start only on 'em .
:agree: Nothing wrong with a hydraulic clutch on a Harley. I replace every clutch on my bikes with hydraulic. Never had an issue doing slow speed turns, even on steep mountain hair pins. No maintenance and no adjusting. Always the same, every day, all the time. :nix:
HD has made a step backwards IMO and most likely did so to cover up the previous defect rather than fix it.
Quote from: Coyote on January 26, 2021, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on January 26, 2021, 06:56:29 AM
Harley riders want technology, until they don't. :wink: Fobs and auto locking bags OK though, LOL.
Probably every other motorcycle company has successfully used hydraulic actuated clutches for years now. Might as well put kick start only on 'em .
:agree: Nothing wrong with a hydraulic clutch on a Harley. I replace every clutch on my bikes with hydraulic. Never had an issue doing slow speed turns, even on steep mountain hair pins. No Minimal maintenance and no adjusting. Always the same, every day, all the time. :nix:
HD has made a step backwards IMO and most likely did so to cover up the previous defect rather than fix it.
It's been my experience that the fluid gets nasty sooner than it should and I would recommend changing it every 2 years, like you would do for the brakes. I've had to overhaul numerous master cylinders because this was neglected.
Quote from: Billy on January 26, 2021, 08:32:40 AM
Quote from: Coyote on January 26, 2021, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on January 26, 2021, 06:56:29 AM
Harley riders want technology, until they don't. :wink: Fobs and auto locking bags OK though, LOL.
Probably every other motorcycle company has successfully used hydraulic actuated clutches for years now. Might as well put kick start only on 'em .
:agree: Nothing wrong with a hydraulic clutch on a Harley. I replace every clutch on my bikes with hydraulic. Never had an issue doing slow speed turns, even on steep mountain hair pins. No Minimal maintenance and no adjusting. Always the same, every day, all the time. :nix:
HD has made a step backwards IMO and most likely did so to cover up the previous defect rather than fix it.
It's been my experience that the fluid gets nasty sooner than it should and I would recommend changing it every 2 years, like you would do for the brakes. I've had to overhaul numerous master cylinders because this was neglected.
I bought a used 2016 Ultra Classic, that was just a couple months over 2 yrs old. The dealer had just flushed the ABS brake system, per paperwork that came with the bike.
This was my first hydraulic clutch, so I inspected the clutch fluid... It was really nasty looking...!
I flushed it, adding Motul DOT 5.1 fluid because it has a higher wet/dry boiling point that DOT 4. I figured since its line runs reight next to the exhaust, the higher boiling point can't hurt...
I now change it on the same schedule as my brake flush....
I have one here with a reverse kit on it. That beings the clutch release assembly out and also the line closer to the exhaust. Now after riding it for a while you lose the clutch. It got so hot It even started to melted the line. Cools down go to go. I think that it might of being a problem on some of them. It was back to the dealer a couple of times for that problem they just kept on redoing the master cylinder. I guess they didn't see the line getting melted from the heat.
Quote from: Coyote on January 26, 2021, 07:11:58 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on January 26, 2021, 06:56:29 AM
Harley riders want technology, until they don't. :wink: Fobs and auto locking bags OK though, LOL.
Probably every other motorcycle company has successfully used hydraulic actuated clutches for years now. Might as well put kick start only on 'em .
:agree: Nothing wrong with a hydraulic clutch on a Harley. I replace every clutch on my bikes with hydraulic. Never had an issue doing slow speed turns, even on steep mountain hair pins. No maintenance and no adjusting. Always the same, every day, all the time. :nix:
HD has made a step backwards IMO and most likely did so to cover up the previous defect rather than fix it.
My last 7 Harleys have had Hydraulic clutch. No issues. My 13 CVO Hydraulic clutch has worked fine all these years since new. I agree, step backwards rather than fix the issue that came about with the M8.
I am still trying to figure out just what issue HD had with the Hydraulic operated clutch that warrants a return to a cable to hide something or not fix something??? for every harley hater that posts their issue with it, probably a 1000 of us rolling along no problems. thats my take on all things that supposedly were a problem, but yet in reality only a few experienced when one considers how many did NOT have and do NOT have problems? My new 2020 RGS is all i expected for a "new" Harley. i have had a few, never new, and if i wanted a cable clutch or kick start, i would go buy an old Harley. i was of the mindset a radio was overkill, the thrill of riding negated having one for me, but with one, i am like, whoa! we all knew what we were buying, and somehow a few bad apples are the example instead of what really is out there. the interwebs, only place i know of where folks have so many problems with their POS harleys...everyone i ride with or meet up with, we ride. My .02