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Technical Forums => EVO 1340 => Topic started by: 1340evo on May 15, 2021, 08:32:28 AM

Title: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 15, 2021, 08:32:28 AM
Hi All

I'm close to putting the motor back together now, but just wanted your thoughts on this issue.
Its a small indent, measuring about .0015 deep where a small end pin has probably indented it in the past.

I mentioned it to the shop when there and they said to put a spot of seal on it as it wans't worth skimming for that amount

Now, I had paper base gaskets on before and they sealed okay, no leaks. But I'm using the James ones now with the metal middle and the raised sealing line both sides so shouls work better.

So the question is,

1     do i just leave it as the James gasket will seal
2     A dot of sealant like the shop said (will this work with the James gaskets)
3     JB weld skim over, leveled with a blade (has anyone used JB weld for anything like this?
4     Other

As I say, its only .0015 deep as I've measured it with a slither of feeler gauge. It actualy looks much worst than it is and I guess thats why the shop didn't think it was worth bothering with. You can feel it with your finger, but measuring the missmatch on the case halves is worst than the indent.

Please don't say, pull it all in bits and skim it as I did ask them to do that and they said not to....  that time is past  :)

Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 15, 2021, 11:09:17 AM
Spread a "thin film" of Permatex Aviation gasket cement on it.  Be sure the surfaces are clean of any oil including finger prints. the aviation cement is non hardening and will squeeze out around the base of the cylinder when torqued down. Clean the bead off that forms around the rim.  After it has been sitting for a while, go back and check the torque in the proper sequence.  You may get a little more bleed after a period of time but clean-up is easy. 

You don't have to use much.  The compression of the gasket will force out equal amounts inside and outside the base gasket and you can only clean the outer side bead off after it is torqued down. A film as thin as you can possibly make it is all you need and you will see that very little will appear as expelled along the joint. The remainder will fill any imperfection you have that the gasket doesn't compress into as tightly as the rest of the surface..
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 15, 2021, 12:29:10 PM
Just a question on that, will it work with the James gasket as I thought they kind of bonded to the metal.
That's why I thought JB weld may be best? A scraped flat bit left to dry then ensure its flat, so the gasket has something to compress on and it don't extrude out?
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 15, 2021, 05:56:05 PM
You'll have to decide.  Maybe someone else will jump in and agree. I know I wouldn't.  I would do and have done what I explained above. The aviation cement is made to seal and not build up. It never hardens.  There is zero change in the gasket thickness.  It compresses to .000000 and pushes out what it doesn't need.  By that I mean it was not measurable from the dry fit on mockup to assembled.  Like I said, if you feel the JB Weld is better, go for it.  I have never used James gaskets.  I have only used MOCO or Cometic and .0035 linen paper as a shim on a .020 Cometic base gasket(to hit zero deck height that needed unobtainable .023 base gaskets). 
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 16, 2021, 01:12:36 AM
Thanks KD... we have Hylomar, wonder if its thr same type of sealer?
Just looked back at what the shop said, and they'd use Permatex or Loctite so I'll get some Permatex ordered.
I have a spare .020 James base gasket so will do a test build, just to make sure it does not eat away the extruded seal stuff on the face, otherwise good to go. Need to skim the heads next week having made a cutter but that should be straight forward.
It's amazing the state of some of these engines once pulled in bit's!

Is this the one?

Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 16, 2021, 05:21:12 AM
That's what I use.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: Burnout on May 16, 2021, 08:35:42 AM
This is not a place for JBWeld....
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: JW113 on May 16, 2021, 09:09:28 AM
Agree, you'll likely make it worse than better, trying to "machine" the surface flat again.

I am a huge fan of those Foam Met gaskets. Never had one leak. Your silicon printed gaskets should be fine though. Coat both sides with Hylomar.

-JW
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: Deye76 on May 16, 2021, 09:19:50 AM
A little Hylomar and your good.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 16, 2021, 09:32:54 AM
I think the gasket will hold it TBH, it is the metal and foam ones I'm using. Thats what they are designed to do. As said, my case halves are worst at around .002 on the rear. For some reason they all do this and mine is quite a good one??? Wonder why they just move on the rear as the others are fine, bit of warp in the casting over time?
Wasn't going to machine the JB weld, just put it in the indent and flat off with a blade before drying. But if it does come off, it's a leak point.
As you say, just fit the gasket or a dab of the sealer
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 16, 2021, 10:05:16 AM
You would never get the barrel on the piston, in place and torqued down before the JB Weld had set. It ain't happening no matter who you are and how fast you can be.  A thin, barely noticeable touch of one of the 2 gasket cements suggested and you'll be good to go. The non hardening properties will allow you to take your time and do a quality assembly job.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 16, 2021, 10:14:08 AM
Quote from: kd on May 16, 2021, 10:05:16 AM
You would never get the barrel on the piston, in place and torqued down before the JB Weld had set. It ain't happening no matter who you are and how fast you can be.  A thin, barely noticeable touch of one of the 2 gasket cements suggested and you'll be good to go. The non hardening properties will allow you to take your time and do a quality assembly job.

No, I didn't think of doing it that way. A dab in the dent and flat off with a blade. Leave 24 hours for full cure then the gasket has a flat surface to go against. But as only .0015 tick, I'm not sure it would not just crack off....
I'll do it the way you suggest with the sealer when it arrives ;)
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 16, 2021, 10:17:37 AM
As the others have said, you should be fine.  It's good to see you catching and paying attention to the details.  :up:
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: JW113 on May 16, 2021, 10:46:10 AM
OK good, you have the Foamet type. Should be good to go. The other nice thing about Hylomar is that if you take it apart again, the gasket will come off clean and not stick to the aluminum. I use it, a very thin coat, on just about all gaskets for that reason. Nothing I hate worse than trying to dig & scrape off stuck gaskets...

-JW
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 16, 2021, 12:43:50 PM
Quote from: JW113 on May 16, 2021, 10:46:10 AM
OK good, you have the Foamet type. Should be good to go. The other nice thing about Hylomar is that if you take it apart again, the gasket will come off clean and not stick to the aluminum. I use it, a very thin coat, on just about all gaskets for that reason. Nothing I hate worse than trying to dig & scrape off stuck gaskets...

-JW

Really,  even on these. It does say they need to bond the the clean matal surfaces?.... its this type

Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: JW113 on May 16, 2021, 01:11:25 PM
That does not look like a Foamet gasket to me, it look like a silicone printed rubberized metal gasket. It will not stick to the metal, so no worries there. Give it a shot, try it without Hylomar if that is what the instructions say to do.

-JW
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 16, 2021, 06:29:25 PM
I'm with JW on this one.  As I mentioned previously, I haven't used James base gaskets and therefore I didn't visualize the ones you have just posted a pic of.  There will likely be very little value in applying anything to them. It's too bad we didn't see what you had before we all recommended an  aircraft cement or Hylomar.  By the description I visualized a steel gasket like Cometic sells, They have the typical single layer with stamped sealing ridges and a micro rubber coating.  The ridges collapse under torque laying them flat on the mating surfaces. The ones you have should seal OK on the beads as they trace the inner and outer perimeter, studs and oil galleries.  Follow their instructions and remember how important cleanliness is.  Silicon actually has a deterioration life span in contact with oil and the expected seal could fail. For that reason I avoid silicon gasket sealers.  Put it this way, if it does start to seep I would not reorder them.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: JW113 on May 16, 2021, 07:41:17 PM
Yeah, life is a long series of experiments. Until it's not. LOL! Give it a try, what the heck. What is the worst that can happen? You have to pull it apart again and machine the case and barrels. Or not. Who the the heck knows? And if that comes to pass, well, you'll work through it. I say go for it, give it a try. It's a Harley-Davidson for crying out loud, they're supposed to mark their spot. Ha ha ha ha!
:oil:

Seriously, I think it will be A-OK with those gaskets. Take a deep breath, pull up your britches, and proceed forth.
:SM:

-JW
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 16, 2021, 11:41:32 PM
Let's give it a go.. as you say, I need something to do over winter  :wink:

What is a Foamet gasket then if its not this type?
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: wfolarry on May 17, 2021, 03:14:55 AM
Those gaskets will leak if the surface isn't perfectly flat. I cut the cylinder gasket surface in a lathe to get them flat.
There are better gaskets out there. Those are at the bottom of my list. Same with their rocker gaskets. Leakers.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 17, 2021, 03:22:00 AM
Ok, so what's the best gasket to use?
People do say these are good, but if better ones exist I'll give them a go.
I've already trimmed the cylinder base so they are spot on...
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: Don D on May 17, 2021, 05:49:45 AM
Genuine HD are not bad
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 17, 2021, 05:56:18 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 17, 2021, 05:49:45 AM
Genuine HD are not bad

I'll bet they don't come in .016"
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: Don D on May 17, 2021, 06:03:51 AM
I'll bet you are right, but .004" is going to make or break the build? If the piston is -.004 what's the issue?  You can use a .030 head gasket and mill the heads and have a very tight squish.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 17, 2021, 06:13:19 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 17, 2021, 06:03:51 AM
I'll bet you are right, but .004" is going to make or break the build? If the piston is -.004 what's the issue?  You can use a .030 head gasket and mill the heads and have a very tight squish.

With what I've got it would give a squish of .038 and I was trying for .034 ish.. I have the head gaskets already....
What to the original HD ones look like? Do they have a silicon bead around them. Tried to find them on-line but can't find a pic...

Actually the ones I have are quoted as a silicon bead, so adding a dot of silicone to it probably won't harm ;)
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 17, 2021, 06:31:33 AM
Cometic has .010 &.020.  They will also make other thicknesses on request for no additional fee.  You have to call them to discuss what dimensions of stock they have.  You can also do like No Cents and I (at least) did. and add a paper wafer with aviation gasket cement. Again, adding a gasket "cement / glue" that has time to set before assembly is complete, seems to me to be looking for failure.  There are too many better options. 
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: Don D on May 17, 2021, 07:51:53 AM
For those that just have to have their goop the SLS Cometics can be used with a light coat of copper coat or hylomar or derivatives.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 17, 2021, 08:08:27 AM
 :up:   And a very light film application is all that is required as it will be squeezed out to a zero build-up.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 17, 2021, 11:41:12 AM
Just re-reading the instructions for the gasket I have and what it actualy says is 'needs no additional sealants' so does not say don't use it. I have some Loctite 5900 flange seal that I know through experience is impossible to get off, so it will get a dab of this on the indent, and again on the case joint, job done. I have cover an area on a .020 gasket I had spare just to see what happens and if it degrades the existing silicone bead any... job done.
Have also finished my fly cutter now so will be skimming the heads down to 78cc tomorrow... then Bob it back together and ride   :chop:
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 18, 2021, 05:31:00 AM
What does the Loctite 5900 do at sustained temps of up to 400 degrees?  It's silicone sealer. :nix:  You are joking, right?  Have you looked at this (http://tds.henkel.com/tds5/Studio/ShowPDF/243%20NEW-EN?pid=SI%205900&format=MTR&subformat=REAC&language=EN&plant=WERCS) ?
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 18, 2021, 11:41:06 AM
It's good for 200 deg C.. so 392F.... what temp do you think it sees down there?
We use on flanges that sometimes see 200c and it lasts...

Anyway, this arrived today if you think its better. Will it work with the silicon bead? I've put some on my test gasket to see what happens ;)

Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 18, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
I guess you're gonna find out.  You can let us know how your experiment goes for you.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 18, 2021, 12:47:25 PM
see above.. I tried the Permatex on the silicon on the gasket... see what happens after 24 hours.. any idea if its okay ?

Did you take a look at this? https://hylomar.com/en/mwdownloads/download/link/id/130/
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: kd on May 18, 2021, 01:11:34 PM
I think what ever you try will probably be captured inside the bead and possibly not allowed to escape (at least evenly if at all).  To me that means build up.  I have no experience with the James Base gasket you have and would probably follow the gasket manufacturer's instructions if I had no other gasket choices. I suggested the aviation cement because I thought I understood at the beginning of this you were using a single layer steel or paper composite gaskets.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 18, 2021, 01:25:19 PM
Ok... let's see what happens :)
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: nmainehunter on May 20, 2021, 04:56:40 PM
Today I had to take my front cylinder off due to the failure of the James base gasket, same as the one shown. I got less than 50 miles on it since taking it down this winter to do some up grades. I've been doing this for years and never had a failure like this. I checked my head bolts for torque and all was good. This wasn't just a seep. I expected to see a torn gasket but that wasn't the case. What I did see that was odd, was the red silicon was squished out in the front and the rear of the cylinder, weird.
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: 1340evo on May 21, 2021, 12:53:15 AM
They did have problems with early ones doing this by all accounts. Any idea when your gasket was made?

Or oil on the sealing face could see them slide out sideways?
Title: Re: Barrel to Caes seal, and small indent
Post by: nmainehunter on May 21, 2021, 12:03:50 PM
I don't know how old those gaskets are. I did order new Cometic head gaskets but the others have been in my collection for a while, years. I'm going Cometic top and bottom on the do over.