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Milwaukee Eight 107 cam testing

Started by Jamie Long, January 18, 2018, 04:16:16 PM

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Jamie Long

For those interested we are going to be doing back to back testing with an assortment of bolt in cams on a 107" Milwaukee Eight motor. The testing will be done on a stock 107 M8 air cooled bike equipped with what we are considering average, good performing, readily available components. We will be using Screamin Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner with stock cover, S&S MK45 mufflers, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, and each combination will get a comprehensive dyno tune with Dynojet Power Vision. Each evaluation will be done in the same gear at the same engine temp. We are going to try to do this over 2 days, we are scheduling this for the last week of January. 

The cams we are testing are as follows:

Cycle-Rama 460
Redshift 468
Wood WM8-22X
S&S 475C
Andrews M460



Ohio HD

That should be interesting. I look forward to see the differences.   

Nastytls

Very cool that you are doing this. Out of curiosity, is there a reason you have chosen the S&S MK45 mufflers? Do you consider them to be the best mufflers for the M8?

BigT

Quote from: Nastytls on January 18, 2018, 04:27:33 PM
Very cool that you are doing this. Out of curiosity, is there a reason you have chosen the S&S MK45 mufflers? Do you consider them to be the best mufflers for the M8?

"we are considering average, good performing, readily available components"

lucasg

That's great news Jamie  :up:  Really looking forward to the results.  Never heard those S&S mufflers in person, but they sure do sound nice on video clips... Keep up the good work...

JMHD

Thanks in advance for sharing these tests, looking forward to the results as well.

NCTURBOS

Definitely looking forward to the results, as the next upgrade to my '17 RGS is a cam choice...

K.
-Boosted 95" B... 160.75-hp & 141.55-tq, 93-octane
-2017 FLTRXS... Stock

Hossamania

You guys have your work cut out for you. Good luck, looking forward to the results.
And as mentioned, thank you for the effort and sharing the results.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

1FSTRK

This should be a good test and yield some usable data. 5 cam changes and 5 complete tunes in two days is a very aggressive schedule, so get some rest before you start. Looking forward to you posting the results. 
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

yobtaf103

Looking forward to the findings, awesome effort.

sfmichael

Colorado Springs, CO.

Jamie Long

We are starting our Milwaukee Eight 107 cam test and I wanted to provide some specific info on how the test will be conducted. Test bike is a 2017 Road Glide 107 with 3460 miles, the engine is completely stock with the exception of the 5 different bolt in cam's we are testing. The bike will be equipped with a Screamin Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, S&S MK45 slip on mufflers, and each cam will be fully tuned with Dynojet Power Vision. Bike will be tested in our dyno cell which has optimum makeup air, exhaust extraction, it is monitored for CO, and the temp will be controlled @ (+/- 5) 72 degrees. We will use our standardized procedure; 6th gear runs 1:1 ratio, bike strapped down on the dyno from each side, cooling fans on each side of the bike at a 45 degree angle 24" from the engine, all runs will be done within a specific engine temperature range and logged/monitored from the bikes CANbus, all runs will be displayed/posted in SAE format with correction multiplier & specific conditions clearly shown. Dyno runs posted will be the average of each cam combination, not the highest or lowest chart of each test. We will be testing in no particular order. We are going to check cam lift & event timing in the engine with a fixture & degree wheel (we will not be posting this info publicly). Due to the amount of work required to install, document, and fully tune each cam and the data that needs to be sorted we are going to post final results once the test is fully completed. We will however be posting relative information thru out the week as we go, full results for each cam will be posted on our website and social media channels Monday February 5th. Thank you for following along.

Hossamania

If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Jamie Long

Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2018, 08:33:17 AM
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

We have very specific objectives for this test, we cannot add variables such as different air cleaners, mufflers, etc.. as it dilutes the premise of the test itself which is; how each cam performs with the exact same set of components. I do however know what you are saying.

As far as air cleaners we have tested many of them on the market for the M8, that is an entirely topic in an of itself. We posted some really interesting air cleaner test info early on in a different social media site and some members of our "fan club" only wanted to hear/believe what they wanted to, twisted the testing around, and for the next year posted statement like we were running bikes with air cleaners removed, the VSS unplugged, and other bs. This is the reason we keep most of our testing and info to ourselves.

Ohio HD

That sounds like as consistent of a test as you could ask for. I wouldn't expect to see huge differences in the cams, but then again, consistent tests tell the truth.

1FSTRK

January 29, 2018, 11:56:35 AM #16 Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 12:16:28 PM by 1FSTRK
Quote from: Jamie Long on January 29, 2018, 08:49:20 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2018, 08:33:17 AM
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

We have very specific objectives for this test, we cannot add variables such as different air cleaners, mufflers, etc.. as it dilutes the premise of the test itself which is; how each cam performs with the exact same set of components. I do however know what you are saying.

As far as air cleaners we have tested many of them on the market for the M8, that is an entirely topic in an of itself. We posted some really interesting air cleaner test info early on in a different social media site and some members of our "fan club" only wanted to hear/believe what they wanted to, twisted the testing around, and for the next year posted statement like we were running bikes with air cleaners removed, the VSS unplugged, and other bs. This is the reason we keep most of our testing and info to ourselves.

Is it based on the other air cleaner tests you refer to above are you using the SE stage 1 because you are confident it will not cause any restriction that would contaminate the cam test results.


Quote from: Jamie Long on January 29, 2018, 08:23:12 AM
We are starting our Milwaukee Eight 107 cam test and I wanted to provide some specific info on how the test will be conducted. Test bike is a 2017 Road Glide 107 with 3460 miles, the engine is completely stock with the exception of the 5 different bolt in cam's we are testing. The bike will be equipped with a Screamin Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, S&S MK45 slip on mufflers, and each cam will be fully tuned with Dynojet Power Vision. Bike will be tested in our dyno cell which has optimum makeup air, exhaust extraction, it is monitored for CO, and the temp will be controlled @ (+/- 5) 72 degrees. We will use our standardized procedure; 6th gear runs 1:1 ratio, bike strapped down on the dyno from each side, cooling fans on each side of the bike at a 45 degree angle 24" from the engine, all runs will be done within a specific engine temperature range and logged/monitored from the bikes CANbus, all runs will be displayed/posted in SAE format with correction multiplier & specific conditions clearly shown. Dyno runs posted will be the average of each cam combination, not the highest or lowest chart of each test. We will be testing in no particular order. We are going to check cam lift & event timing in the engine with a fixture & degree wheel (we will not be posting this info publicly). Due to the amount of work required to install, document, and fully tune each cam and the data that needs to be sorted we are going to post final results once the test is fully completed. We will however be posting relative information thru out the week as we go, full results for each cam will be posted on our website and social media channels Monday February 5th. Thank you for following along.

On nice addition would be to include CCP tests for each cam. I know this is standard procedure when making back to back dyno tests but it was not mentioned so I thought i would ask if we could see them posted as well.
Thanks for sharing here at HTT.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Nastytls

Quote from: Jamie Long on January 29, 2018, 08:49:20 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2018, 08:33:17 AM
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

We have very specific objectives for this test, we cannot add variables such as different air cleaners, mufflers, etc.. as it dilutes the premise of the test itself which is; how each cam performs with the exact same set of components. I do however know what you are saying.

As far as air cleaners we have tested many of them on the market for the M8, that is an entirely topic in an of itself. We posted some really interesting air cleaner test info early on in a different social media site and some members of our "fan club" only wanted to hear/believe what they wanted to, twisted the testing around, and for the next year posted statement like we were running bikes with air cleaners removed, the VSS unplugged, and other bs. This is the reason we keep most of our testing and info to ourselves.

Haters gonna hate. I don't see anyone else performing this type of testing on their dime, or otherwise. I think most people can see through the garbage associated with jealousy of Fuel Moto's success. What's sad is that the rest of us are missing out if you don't share your findings in other testing you do because of those jealous people.

Jamie Long

We have tested each of the cam's listed for our test, we had a bunch of people ask about the Wood WM8-222 so we squeezed it into the test as well. The Dynojet Power Vision, Jackpot 2/1/2, S&S MK45 mufflers, & Screamin Eagle air cleaner we used for the test worked very well and proved to be a very consistent, strong performing combination.

We are running one last set of tests today; we are switching exhaust to a 2/1 system and using the new K&N air charger (heavy breather) type air cleaner. We are looking to determine & demonstrate the effects of how a different style exhaust & AC affects the curve and overall numbers. As noted earlier we will be compiling, sorting, & formatting all of the data and we will be posting results on Monday Feb 5th. Stay tuned! 

Ohio HD

Might be the first test of it's kind that we've seen here, all back to back and within very close time frame for weather conditions, etc.    :up:

   

1FSTRK

With proper testing the weather conditions will have little to no effect. I am sure the data from the first of the week will be comparable to the tests run 5 days later even with the weather changes this time of year.

Thanks Jamie for sharing here, with two real test threads in the M-8 section of HTT we are clearly the internet forum leader in data for this new engine platform.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Jamie Long

We tested all 6 cams over 2 days, we had everything staged and ready for Tuesday & Wednesday testing, it was truly a team effort; Travis pulled the parts & had them ready, Keith changed the cam's, I did the dyno tuning, the rest of the staff kept the business running as usual. We wrapped up the test with the exhaust & air cleaner swap today. We did everything in our power to keep the test consistent. The most difficult part was keeping the dyno cell at 72 degrees consistently, fortunately we have a really good makeup air system with variable dampers. We used fuel from the same jugs of Mobil 91 we filled from the pump on Monday. 

Hossamania

Sounds like quite the process!
Looking forward to the results.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

1FSTRK

Only one and a half hours until Monday.   :smile:
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Jamie Long

February 05, 2018, 07:12:13 AM #24 Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 12:01:04 PM by Jamie Long
Fuel Moto H-D Milwaukee-Eight® 107" Camshaft Shootout



Fuel Moto tested SIX different bolt in camshafts back-to-back to provide an accurate comparison of results. Our test bike was a 2017 Harley-Davidson Road Glide 107" Milwaukee Eight and was equipped with a Screamin' Eagle Stage 1 air cleaner, Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe, S&S MK45 slip on mufflers, and each cam was fully tuned with the Dynojet Power Vision. The following cams were part of this test:

Andrews M460
Cycle-Rama 460
S&S Cycle 475C
Wood Performance-WM8-22X
Zipper's Red Shift 468
Wood Performance WM8-222

The first dyno chart below has all six of the camshafts overlaid to show their respective torque and horsepower relative to this particular set of components. All of the camshafts in our test offered significant performance increases over that of the stock camshaft.


____________________________________________________________________

Andrews M460 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: This cam makes nice broad power. It comes on relatively early and pulls well to the right side of the curve. This cam placed in the middle of the test.


_____________________________________________________________________
Cycle Rama CR-460 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: The Cycle Rama 460 made very good low RPM power (the second best in this test), it also provides a very broad power curve with good upper RPM power.



____________________________________________________________________

S&S Cycle 475C Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Very Aggressive
Description: The S&S 475C made the second best peak HP in our test, it accelerates hard. It is very responsive and has the most aggressive lope of all the cams we tested by a significant margin.


____________________________________________________________________

Wood WM8-22X Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Aggressive
Description: The WM8-22X camshaft offers the best early torque in this test, and it faired well horsepower wise. This cam is easy to tune and has an aggressive lope.


____________________________________________________________________

Zipper's Red Shift 468 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Semi-Aggressive
Description: The Red Shift 468 placed in the middle of our test for both peak torque and horsepower. It has really broad power, nice and strong through the mid RPM's. It has a semi aggressive lope.



___________________________________________________________________

Wood WM8-222 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: The WM8-222 made the best overall peak horsepower. It made slightly less early torque than the other cams. It has the smoothest curve.


1FSTRK

"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Frédéric CM


lucasg

Great work and results Jamie.   A big thank you to you and all the team at Fuel Moto.  Always appreciate your hard work in testing and comparing ... Keep up the good work !!

:up:

Hossamania

So, in a side by side race, which cam wins the quarter mile? Which cam wins the race to 100 mph from, say, 20 or 30 mph?
These are the things I think about, because I use racing to show my superiority over others, since I can't do it with intellect or skills.........
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

hd06myway

from what I hear the heads keep the power numbers down because the stock 4v heads don't flow to their potential.. I bet with the right heads we'd see 120hp/120tq.... or better

Jamie Long

Here is a list of the cam specs that Max put together.


BVHOG

Great testing,  very similar results from cam to cam.  I would assume the exhaust is causing the dip on every chart.
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

Jamie Long

Quote from: BVHOG on February 06, 2018, 06:41:11 AM
Great testing,  very similar results from cam to cam.  I would assume the exhaust is causing the dip on every chart.

The dip was actually caused primarily from the SE air cleaner. We did some post testing with a couple different air cleaners followed by exhausts and the dip pretty well disappeared once the AC was swapped out. 

sfmichael

Thanks Jamie - very impressive and generous effort by you and your staff  :up: :up:
Colorado Springs, CO.

1FSTRK

Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2018, 08:33:17 AM
Just an observation, have you thought about doing a run without the air cleaner to see if it is restricting flow?

:banghead: :banghead:

Unless there is a method to the madness. :idea:
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

BigT

Quote from: sfmichael on February 06, 2018, 10:16:07 AM
Thanks Jamie - very impressive and generous effort by you and your staff  :up: :up:
👍👍

DTTJGlide

Thanks for the testing & sharing the info with us, are you going to post info on the air cleaner & exhaust change? I know on other tests that a 2-1 changed the curve quite a bit, thanks again.

NCTURBOS

Quote from: DTTJGlide on February 08, 2018, 07:09:38 PM
...are you going to post info on the air cleaner & exhaust change?...

x2, please share...

K.
-Boosted 95" B... 160.75-hp & 141.55-tq, 93-octane
-2017 FLTRXS... Stock

Jamie Long

After we concluded the M8 cam test we tested a few components on our test bike to demonstrate the effect in horsepower & torque from changing the specific recipe we used. The bike has a Wood WM8-222 cam and we swapped exhaust to the Jackpot Road & Track 2/1 and we also changed from the SE air cleaner to the new K&N Filtercharger, this is a heavy breather style unit with a large elbow. Here is the dyno chart for this combination, as well as a comparison to the 222 cam with the earlier exhaust we tested.




NHBagger

Nice results.  Naturally we always want more.  Would like to see the 22X with that setup.

1FSTRK

Thanks for posting this Jamie.
Counting the Powerhouse Cycle/Joe Lyons runs in the dyno section we now can see 4 different exhaust and three different air cleaners tested with this cam in stage two trim.
The exhaust, with some influences from the air cleaners, clearly control the torque curve below 5k and the above 5k power is constant in the three performance exhaust choices. it will be interesting to see the rest of your graphs when you post them.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

JMHD

Thanks for sharing your findings. Its awesome to see tests like this.Thanks again!




sfmichael

thanks again Jamie  :up:  :up:

the 222 and the 2-1 play well together - nice combo  :up:

heavy breather style A/C's are awfully hard to beat if you like that style - that is the bar IMO
Colorado Springs, CO.

Jamie Long

We performed another round of post testing from our M8 cam test. In this test we installed a FM 117 (4.125") big bore kit, however we used a lower compression 10.75:1 piston than our normal kit. This allowed us to use one of the bolt in cam's from our testing. Our test bike has the Wood WM8-222 cam, we used stock heads & throttle body, stock injectors (which are near/at the limit in this example) and the bike was equipped a Jackpot M8 2/1/2 head pipe and S&S MK45 mufflers. Tuning was done with Dynojet Power Vision. Essentially this is the same identical configuration we used with our 107 M8 cam test, the only components that were changed were the pistons & cylinders, we added 10 c.i. and gave it a bump in compression.


sfmichael

sure looks great  :up: :up:

will the 2-1 pipe follow this test?   :pop:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Sunny Jim

I think this is what I might be looking for. Currently running the CR460 and enjoying it.
I would like to ride that!

Jamie Long

Quote from: sfmichael on February 19, 2018, 10:00:03 AM
sure looks great  :up: :up:

will the 2-1 pipe follow this test?   :pop:

We'll test the 2/1 on this combo as some point, however we are running at the rev limiter as we come into season. We have a bunch of customer builds here in progress, and a full schedule for the foreseeable future. We will however be testing cam's in our M8 114 Softail next week and we are hoping to squeeze in some testing with a low compression 124 build on a customers M8 CVO next week as well. 

Jamie Long

For those interested, today we are installing a FM 124" big bore on a 2017 CVO Limited. This one is going to be lower compression (10.8:1) than our standard kit for the 4.5" stroke motors, it is designed to work with the stock throttle body, cylinder heads, and bolt in cam (Wood WM8-222). More to come...


Jamie Long

2018 Softail Milwaukee Eight 114 cam testing is underway. Over the next several days we will be testing the same camshafts we tested last month in the FLH M8 107: Cycle-Rama 460, Wood WM8-222 and 22X, S&S 475C, Red Shift 468, and Andrews 460. Our test bike is equipped with a Bassani 2/1 exhaust, FM AC/DC air cleaner, and we will be tuning with Dynojet Power Vision. We will publish a full report next week. Stay tuned...





Jamie Long

We got the CVO bike all finished up and rolled it out yesterday. This was built using a new lower compression 124" combination we have been working on for use with shorter bolt in cams. We installed the FM 124" kit @ 10.75:1 compression, Wood WM8-222 cams, we used the stock heads & throttle body, installed the AIM SDR clutch, 5.5 injectors, Jackpot head pipe, and tuned it with Dynojet Power Vision. Customer already had the S&S MK45 mufflers which work really well. This combination turned our really well with exceptional torque.


Hossamania

Nice, that torque comes up early and makes a bunch of it. I bet that will be a ball to ride.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

sfmichael

Colorado Springs, CO.

Buglet

    That's really looking good. Good going Jamie.

Jamie Long

March 08, 2018, 10:41:59 AM #53 Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 11:06:13 AM by Jamie Long

In our second round of Milwaukee 8 cam testing we put the same SIX different bolt in camshafts to the test that were in our H-D Milwaukee Eight 107 cam shootout last month, however for this test we installed them in the Milwaukee Eight 114. Our test bike was a 2018 Harley-Davidson Fat Boy 114" Milwaukee Eight and the bike was equipped with a Fuel Moto AC/DC Stage 1 air cleaner, stock head pipes with non-catalyst slip on mufflers, and each cam was fully tuned with the Dynojet Power Vision. The following cams were part of this test:
Andrews M460
Cycle-Rama 460
S&S Cycle 475C
Wood Performance-WM8-22X
Zipper's Red Shift 468
Wood Performance WM8-222
The first dyno chart below has all six of the camshafts overlaid to show their respective torque and horsepower relative to this particular set of components. All of the camshafts in our test offered excellent performance increases over that of the stock camshaft, most interesting is each cam took on a bit more of its own direction with the larger displacement 114" engine compared to the 107" test. As we started our test we found immediately that the exhaust we originally planned to test with was not up to the standards we were looking for, we spent the first day working on exhaust systems, baffles, and different setup before we came up with a combination that would work for our testing. We also found the stock Ventilator air cleaner was not sufficient, so we replaced it with the Fuel Moto AC/DC Stage 1 (stay tuned for a future M8 air cleaner test).





Andrews M460 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: The M460 cam makes broad power that comes on relatively early and pulls well to the upper RPM's as well. Smooth idle.




Cycle Rama CR-460 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: The Cycle Rama 460 was strong on both HP and Tq, it has a very broad curve and great mid range characteristics. Excellent response.





S&S Cycle 475C Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Aggressive
Description: The S&S 475C again made the second best peak HP in our testing, however the 114 torque curve was even better than the 107 test. Idle was not as aggressive as in the 107, likely because of the different exhaust orientation. A great candidate for a big bore application.




Wood WM8-22X Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Aggressive
Description: The WM8-22X camshaft made the most torque overall, this cam drives big torque early on and lots of it. Very strong low-mid RPM response. Strong idle lope.





Zipper's Red Shift 468 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Semi-Aggressive
Description: The Red Shift 468 again placed in the middle of our test for both peak torque and horsepower. It has really broad power, nice and flat through the RPM range. It has great idle lope.





Wood WM8-222 Camshaft
Valve Train Noise: Very Quiet
Cam Lope at Idle: Moderate
Description: The WM8-222 made the best overall peak horsepower. It made less early-mid torque than the other cams, curve is very broad. This cam likes to rev and is also a great cam to build into for future mods such as a 117 big bore where it really shines.




Buglet

              Jamie thanks for your hard work.   

1FSTRK

"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Jamie Long

Sorry we have not been posting updates, running beyond the limiter at the moment. Here are a few dyno charts of the WM8-22X cam from installs the last few days.









Jamie Long

A couple weeks back we went thru another full round of 120 M8 testing, we made significant gains from where where we were at with the exhaust system we tested. This is the final prototype "XXX" hi output head pipe; as we have been stating all along these motors are WAY picky on exhaust.



Hossamania

Wow, that 120 is making almost 160 horsepower? That is amazing.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

sfmichael

looks awesome  :up: :up:

what clutch upgrades are you putting in these bikes?  :pop:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Nastytls

It says Jackpot mufflers, so I'm guessing this is with a 2-1-2.  Are finding that the 2-1-2 are working better than 2-1 on the M8?

Buglet

    Looking good. This is progress in the right direction.

Jamie Long

We installed the Fuel Moto 124 10.8 comp big bore kit on our 2018 Softail. We used the Wood WM8-222 cam (was already in the motor), stock heads & TB, 5.5 injectors, D&D Fatcat 2/1 and tuned it with Dynojet Power Vision. Big power gains for a piston/cylinder kit, cam, pipe & tune. Next up we're going to replace the throttle body & retest, then cylinder heads.


Helmwurst

Jamie, been looking at the S&S and Redshift cams for my 107, are you seeing sumping issues while running these pulls on the dyno? I am seeing some sumping issues and a 2500+ RPM vibration, and do not want to make matters any worse by upping the torque so I can twist the throttle more until we figure out what is going on with the sumping and the vibration.

Jamie Long

Quote from: Helmwurst on October 01, 2018, 04:32:37 AM
Jamie, been looking at the S&S and Redshift cams for my 107, are you seeing sumping issues while running these pulls on the dyno? I am seeing some sumping issues and a 2500+ RPM vibration, and do not want to make matters any worse by upping the torque so I can twist the throttle more until we figure out what is going on with the sumping and the vibration.

Between the 2017 Road Glide & 2018 Softail we own FM has tested more than a dozen cams in each engine, developed our big bore kits & other products, accumulated 10,000 street miles, and made in the thousands of dyno runs. We've had zero issues; no sumping or any other issues. Both motors are still using the stock cam plates & pumps as they were delivered from the factory. Zero issues thus far. 

Hossamania

Quote from: Jamie Long on October 03, 2018, 01:55:40 PM
Quote from: Helmwurst on October 01, 2018, 04:32:37 AM
Jamie, been looking at the S&S and Redshift cams for my 107, are you seeing sumping issues while running these pulls on the dyno? I am seeing some sumping issues and a 2500+ RPM vibration, and do not want to make matters any worse by upping the torque so I can twist the throttle more until we figure out what is going on with the sumping and the vibration.

Between the 2017 Road Glide & 2018 Softail we own FM has tested more than a dozen cams in each engine, developed our big bore kits & other products, accumulated 10,000 street miles, and made in the thousands of dyno runs. We've had zero issues; no sumping or any other issues. Both motors are still using the stock cam plates & pumps as they were delivered from the factory. Zero issues thus far.

That is promising information.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Jamie Long

In our latest test we added a set of FM Level A CNC heads (CNC ported from seat to the guide, valve job, hi-lift springs) and a 64mm TB with ported manifold.




sfmichael

Colorado Springs, CO.

Jamie Long

2017 CVO Street Glide; FM 124 big bore kit with factory bored cylinders, Wood WM8-408 cam, SE64mm TB with CNC ported manifold. He's running the Jackpot 2/1/2 head pipe, Street Outlaw mufflers, and we tuned it with Dynojet Power Vision. We used the stock heads with Wood valve springs in this build.


1FSTRK

 :up: :up: Nice work right there.
:up: :up: STOCK HEADS  :up: :up:
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

BigT

Quote from: Jamie Long on November 20, 2018, 11:53:51 AM
2017 CVO Street Glide; FM 124 big bore kit with factory bored cylinders, Wood WM8-408 cam, SE64mm TB with CNC ported manifold. He's running the Jackpot 2/1/2 head pipe, Street Outlaw mufflers, and we tuned it with Dynojet Power Vision. We used the stock heads with Wood valve springs in this build.


Is this a 128" with the CVO 4.5" stroke?

Txwezl

With a CVO 4.5" stroke this would be 128 cubic inches.

hdrider

Quote from: Jamie Long on November 20, 2018, 11:53:51 AM
2017 CVO Street Glide; FM 124 big bore kit with factory bored cylinders, Wood WM8-408 cam, SE64mm TB with CNC ported manifold. He's running the Jackpot 2/1/2 head pipe, Street Outlaw mufflers, and we tuned it with Dynojet Power Vision. We used the stock heads with Wood valve springs in this build.



Based on this and your earlier chart of a 124 with your FM CNC heads, it looks like your CNC heads aren't any better than stock (and maybe worse).  I'd like to hear your theory on what's the deal with that.  At this point it certainly doesn't look like porting the heads really offers anything.

sfmichael

did you look at post #66?

I must be missing something :missed:
Colorado Springs, CO.

1FSTRK

Quote from: hdrider on November 25, 2018, 08:35:18 PM

Based on this and your earlier chart of a 124 with your FM CNC heads, it looks like your CNC heads aren't any better than stock (and maybe worse).  I'd like to hear your theory on what's the deal with that.  At this point it certainly doesn't look like porting the heads really offers anything.


Quote from: sfmichael on November 26, 2018, 01:22:14 AM
did you look at post #66?

I must be missing something :missed:


I think you both missed.

Apples to oranges, two different bikes, different cams, unknown CCP,  different exhaust systems, the only thing that appears they have in common is the 124 ci displacement.
This thread has changed from testing, to examples of different build combinations. Still some good info but easily misunderstood.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

sfmichael

Colorado Springs, CO.

Jamie Long

Quote from: hdrider on November 25, 2018, 08:35:18 PM
Quote from: Jamie Long on November 20, 2018, 11:53:51 AM
2017 CVO Street Glide; FM 124 big bore kit with factory bored cylinders, Wood WM8-408 cam, SE64mm TB with CNC ported manifold. He's running the Jackpot 2/1/2 head pipe, Street Outlaw mufflers, and we tuned it with Dynojet Power Vision. We used the stock heads with Wood valve springs in this build.


Based on this and your earlier chart of a 124 with your FM CNC heads, it looks like your CNC heads aren't any better than stock (and maybe worse).  I'd like to hear your theory on what's the deal with that.  At this point it certainly doesn't look like porting the heads really offers anything.

These motors certainly do respond well to headwork. You are comparing completely different engine builds; different compression, different cam, different exhaust, one is a Softail one is a Touring etc.

1FSTRK

November 26, 2018, 05:57:03 PM #77 Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 08:24:43 PM by 1FSTRK
Quote from: sfmichael on November 26, 2018, 07:38:18 AM
let me know what I missed  :missed:

Yes they added ported heads but just as important they replaced the poorly designed intake with a ported intake and bigger throttle body. A good test would be to take the 124"with the stock heads, intake, and TB that was posted and just swap in the ported intake, bigger TB and re-run it.
Anyways there is no back to back that I have seen where just heads were swapped out with ported heads.

It is more apples to oranges but if you want to compare heads take a look at post #68 compared to post #66

The #68 is stock heads making 11.47 more tq with a broader curve over the ported heads in #66 while only giving up 2.73 hp above 5500 rpm.  Both have the ported manifold and bigger TB but the cams and exhaust are different. This tells me the stock head are doing fine, remember how much they actually flow right from the factory.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Jamie Long

You are again comparing completely different 124 builds, the only thing that is the same is the displacement. Different compression, cam, completely different exhaust systems, and one is a Softail one is a Touring. When we get thru our Cyber Week sale and get caught up i'll share some testing we did last year with stock vs ported heads back to back. To make things interesting here is a combo we built recently with a 4.375 stroke, one of our dealers also just built a similar combo with a slightly different cam with same exhaust that went 155 square


sfmichael

November 27, 2018, 12:09:33 AM #79 Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 12:15:46 AM by sfmichael
Quote from: sfmichael on November 26, 2018, 07:38:18 AM
let me know what I missed  :missed:

"Apples to oranges, two different bikes, different cams, unknown CCP,  different exhaust systems, the only thing that appears they have in common is the 124 ci displacement.
This thread has changed from testing, to examples of different build combinations. Still some good info but easily misunderstood."



now I realize not only heads were changed, but the chances of getting the additional 15 hp from merely porting the intake and increasing T/B size are very slim
Colorado Springs, CO.

1FSTRK

Quote from: sfmichael on November 27, 2018, 12:09:33 AM
Quote from: sfmichael on November 26, 2018, 07:38:18 AM
let me know what I missed  :missed:

"Apples to oranges, two different bikes, different cams, unknown CCP,  different exhaust systems, the only thing that appears they have in common is the 124 ci displacement.
This thread has changed from testing, to examples of different build combinations. Still some good info but easily misunderstood."



now I realize not only heads were changed, but the chances of getting the additional 15 hp from merely porting the intake and increasing T/B size are very slim

What is your statement based on, have you seen flow data or dyno testing from these two manifolds and tb's. Are you saying they don't make a difference, why are so many spending time and money to change them?

We do have flow numbers on the stock heads and they flow more than enough cfm to support the HP numbers so something must be holding them back. As I pointed out, post 68 shows stock heads do flow enough air to make 142.26 hp and 149.61 tq with a great curve when the rest of the combo is right so we now actually know the head is capable of at least that much.

I am not saying all the HP came from the manifold and tb, but without testing no one really knows what made how much difference. All the later graphs are good build examples but without back to back that is what they are, examples.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Jamie Long

Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 27, 2018, 04:10:45 AM
"without testing no one really knows what made how much difference"

We very much know the difference and how each component affects power output, this is why we do the testing. We have a few thousand dyno runs between our M8 test bikes including extensive cylinder head testing with 2 cylinder head guys at the top of their game. I will however agree the stock heads are damn good for many applications; we use them in builds frequently. The primary objective for our Level A head was not airflow specifically, it was valve seat correction (and replacement if necessary), valve springs, and mild port correction.   

1FSTRK

November 27, 2018, 10:27:14 AM #82 Last Edit: November 27, 2018, 10:45:55 AM by 1FSTRK
Quote from: Jamie Long on November 27, 2018, 08:27:44 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 27, 2018, 04:10:45 AM
"without testing no one really knows what made how much difference"

We very much know the difference and how each component affects power output, this is why we do the testing. We have a few thousand dyno runs between our M8 test bikes including extensive cylinder head testing with 2 cylinder head guys at the top of their game. I will however agree the stock heads are damn good for many applications; we use them in builds frequently. The primary objective for our Level A head was not airflow specifically, it was valve seat correction (and replacement if necessary), valve springs, and mild port correction.

My statement was in the context of the conversation between sfmichael and myself. I do not insinuate what you and your team know or do not know. The term "no one really knows" referred to "no one" here on the forum base on the information posted here and that is still true. When examples are posted with only some of the test data each one is left to draw some conclusions that may be right or wrong. 

I appreciate all that you share with us here and hope that you will continue posting graphs and information. Should you choose to post the graphs you have of the back to back testing between stock heads and any other head or any back to back manifold/TB testing I am sure it will help in clearing up some of the confusion for those of us discussing those subjects.

Thanks again for your devotion to all this development and for freely sharing it here.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

sfmichael

 :agree:  I will 2nd that Jamie - we appreciate what everyone shares here but especially you and Daren test and share extensively and freely and, although I know you're a businessman first, you also go above and beyond to be helpful and generous with your R&D. Most of us don't have unlimited dyno access and we all know that is where the proof is when it comes to high performance.

Some hold those cards close to the vest and who could blame them? It costs a lot of time and money to learn what works, not on paper, but in the real world. I have spent a lifetime learning my craft and I'm more generous with my knowledge now, but when I was younger I wanted people to pay for what I had worked so hard to learn.

I've since learned I can do quite well while still helping others and if feels good to share my experience and maybe save someone from making an expensive mistake or just save them money by teaching them to repair something they thought was beyond their capabilities.

I've learned so much here and guys like you make that possible. You and many others  :beer:
Colorado Springs, CO.

HD/Wrench

Quote from: sfmichael on November 27, 2018, 12:09:33 AM
Quote from: sfmichael on November 26, 2018, 07:38:18 AM
let me know what I missed  :missed:

"Apples to oranges, two different bikes, different cams, unknown CCP,  different exhaust systems, the only thing that appears they have in common is the 124 ci displacement.
This thread has changed from testing, to examples of different build combinations. Still some good info but easily misunderstood."



TOO funny just had a customer cal me on this and rave about the great gains . But looking at #62 it made more power than its showing in the over lay Same bike same kit only change was heads and t/b . So we take away power to show a better kit that sells for more money NO increase in TQ at all but we gain some HP . :scratch: :scratch: 


now I realize not only heads were changed, but the chances of getting the additional 15 hp from merely porting the intake and increasing T/B size are very slim

Jamie Long

For those interested here are a couple M8 examples we built last week.

2018 Fat Bob: FM 124" Stage III big bore kit w/ factory bored cylinders @ 10.8 comp, stock heads, D&D Fatcat 2/1, SE 64mm ported TB, and we used the Wood WM8-22X cam that he already installed & was already running. This was a factory 114" bike.





2018 CVO Road Glide: FM 128" big bore kit, FM Level A CNC heads, Wood WM8-408 cam, SE ported 64mm TB, AIM SDR clutch, Jackpot XXX head pipe & Hi Roller mufflers, and tuned it with Dynojet Power Vision.





1FSTRK

You've been busy!
Thanks for keeping us updated with the progress.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Jamie Long


sfmichael

Colorado Springs, CO.

Little Wing

Glad to see these numbers coming from M8s. The new design is proving to be very efficient and powerful for touring needs/wants.

Jamie, thanks for doing all the work on these bikes. It really is helpful for making decisions on performance issues.

Did you by any chance degree the cams? Do you have any specs as to duration, lift, etc?

Seems the mfgs are keeping things close to their vests lol
2018 VIVID BLACK FLTRX
There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Little Wing

2018 VIVID BLACK FLTRX
There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Jamie Long

The following dyno chart represents a combo we've been working on. This setup is not about peak numbers it's about big, early torque with a broad curve. It does not have anywhere near the peak horsepower potential as some of our other M8 kit's, however it has the huge emphasis on low RPM torque that some riders are looking for. It's is a FM 124" M8 big bore kit with stock cylinder heads, our standard Jackpot M8 2/1/2 and Street Outlaw mufflers, it has a SE 64mm TB with Ward ported manifold, and a special cam combination (we're working with Bobby Wood) that we're not quite ready to disclose. We're going to test this kit in a couple more engines and it should be ready to release by the end of April. Key points of this dyno chart are this motor makes 130Tq @ 2250 RPM, 140Tq @ 2650 RPM, and it carries 130+Tq from 2250-5000 RPM's. Most notably, we cannot stress enough how picky these M8 motors are on individual components, while this example uses all off the shelf parts, this is a culmination of months of testing to get to the end results. Don't expect anywhere near these same results with a big open exhaust or the wrong cam etc.. We're not trying to hurt feelings; we're simply sharing facts & data, not opinion. More info to come.




mike jesse


Hossamania

Not exactly 107 cam testing anymore in this 107 cam testing thread. Not complaining, just observing.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Jamie Long

We've been noting the importance of using properly baffled mufflers for many years, and with the Milwaukee-8 engines we've found they are even more exhaust sensitive than the Twin Cam design. We spend a large amount of the day going over these differences so we wanted to put an easy to understand test together that may help choose the proper components for your application. Muffler choice can make or break the entire combination and the current trend of large, open baffles is unfortunately the opposite of what these motors want with most configurations, especially when you go to an aftermarket cam. We've seen as much as 30+ Tq loss in the lower RPM's and these excessively large baffles contribute to poor response and tunability. If you have mufflers with these excessively large baffles, big tapered, or stepped cores they are costing you considerable performance, you cannot bend the laws of physics. Reversion is effectively reducing velocity that is essential to low-mid RPM performance & response. For info on exhaust theory & design some of the best written resources are the tech articles from Burns Stainless.

The following testing is going to document the specific differences in performance between a muffler with an overly large baffled muffler (were calling it muffler "ABC") versus a properly baffled muffler for this application (conventional core with removable secondary inserts in place; muffler "123"). The test vehicle in these tests is a 2018 H-D FLHTK Ultra Limited. All testing was done on the same day in the Fuel Moto Dynojet test cell and each combination was fully tuned with Dynojet Power Vision. We tested the following combinations:

  • Stock headpipe, Muffler "ABC", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune
  • Stock headpipe, Muffler "123", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune
  • Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "ABC", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune
  • Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "123", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune
  • Wood WM8-22x cam, Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "ABC", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune
  • Wood WM8-22x cam, Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "123", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune

Test 1) Stock headpipe, Muffler "ABC", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune



Test 2) Stock headpipe, Muffler "123", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune





Note the difference below comparing the two mufflers with the stock head pipe. The larger baffled mufflers are making measurably less torque than the conventional baffled mufflers but performance could be considered reasonable in this application.





Test 3) Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "ABC", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune





Test 4) Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "123", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune



Note the difference below between the two mufflers when you replace the head pipe with the non catalyst pipe. Numbers increase slightly but there is a more defined dip with the larger baffles. The merge collector in the 2/1/2 head pipe is helping the deficiencies. Throttle response is noticeably different between the two setups as well, the larger baffles combination feels lack response.





Test 5) Wood WM8-22x cam, Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "ABC", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune



Test 6) Wood WM8-22x cam, Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "123", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune



They made the same torque! but wait a minute this is where the testing gets really interesting. When you add the aftermarket Wood WM8-22x cam to the mix it really separates the two mufflers. There is now a huge defined loss in low RPM power; the motor is simply not happy and does not respond with the large baffled mufflers in the lower RPM's. Your looking at a difference as much as 20Tq in the lower RPM's, throttle response is also poor. Riding the bike seat of the pants difference is night and day; mufflers are the only difference.

Consider the WM8-22x is one of the strongest low-mid RPM cams on the market. If you were using another cam that is not quite as strong on the bottom or a different pipe without a properly designed merge collector; the results of the larger baffles would be even worse. The mufflers we tested were not even the worst offenders we've seen, (yes we've seen even worse). Also consider each of these combinations were properly dyno tuned and properly tested.



Below you will find an overlay of each of the runs from this test. Most interesting to note is the WM8-22x test with the large "ABC" mufflers made less power below 2600 RPM than with the stock cam, head pipe and the same mufflers!




sfmichael

Colorado Springs, CO.

yobtaf103

Quote from: Jamie Long on April 15, 2019, 01:32:44 PM
The following dyno chart represents a combo we've been working on. This setup is not about peak numbers it's about big, early torque with a broad curve. It does not have anywhere near the peak horsepower potential as some of our other M8 kit's, however it has the huge emphasis on low RPM torque that some riders are looking for. It's is a FM 124" M8 big bore kit with stock cylinder heads, our standard Jackpot M8 2/1/2 and Street Outlaw mufflers, it has a SE 64mm TB with Ward ported manifold, and a special cam combination (we're working with Bobby Wood) that we're not quite ready to disclose. We're going to test this kit in a couple more engines and it should be ready to release by the end of April. Key points of this dyno chart are this motor makes 130Tq @ 2250 RPM, 140Tq @ 2650 RPM, and it carries 130+Tq from 2250-5000 RPM's. Most notably, we cannot stress enough how picky these M8 motors are on individual components, while this example uses all off the shelf parts, this is a culmination of months of testing to get to the end results. Don't expect anywhere near these same results with a big open exhaust or the wrong cam etc.. We're not trying to hurt feelings; we're simply sharing facts & data, not opinion. More info to come.



Any update on this ?

Ronbo2

Quote from: Jamie Long on May 13, 2019, 03:03:59 PM
We've been noting the importance of using properly baffled mufflers for many years, and with the Milwaukee-8 engines we've found they are even more exhaust sensitive than the Twin Cam design. We spend a large amount of the day going over these differences so we wanted to put an easy to understand test together that may help choose the proper components for your application. Muffler choice can make or break the entire combination and the current trend of large, open baffles is unfortunately the opposite of what these motors want with most configurations, especially when you go to an aftermarket cam. We've seen as much as 30+ Tq loss in the lower RPM's and these excessively large baffles contribute to poor response and tunability. If you have mufflers with these excessively large baffles, big tapered, or stepped cores they are costing you considerable performance, you cannot bend the laws of physics. Reversion is effectively reducing velocity that is essential to low-mid RPM performance & response. For info on exhaust theory & design some of the best written resources are the tech articles from Burns Stainless.

Test 5) Wood WM8-22x cam, Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "ABC", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune



Test 6) Wood WM8-22x cam, Jackpot 2/1/2 headpipe, Muffler "123", Stage 1 air cleaner, Dynojet Power Vision tune



They made the same torque! but wait a minute this is where the testing gets really interesting. When you add the aftermarket Wood WM8-22x cam to the mix it really separates the two mufflers. There is now a huge defined loss in low RPM power; the motor is simply not happy and does not respond with the large baffled mufflers in the lower RPM's. Your looking at a difference as much as 20Tq in the lower RPM's, throttle response is also poor. Riding the bike seat of the pants difference is night and day; mufflers are the only difference.

Consider the WM8-22x is one of the strongest low-mid RPM cams on the market. If you were using another cam that is not quite as strong on the bottom or a different pipe without a properly designed merge collector; the results of the larger baffles would be even worse. The mufflers we tested were not even the worst offenders we've seen, (yes we've seen even worse). Also consider each of these combinations were properly dyno tuned and properly tested.



Below you will find an overlay of each of the runs from this test. Most interesting to note is the WM8-22x test with the large "ABC" mufflers made less power below 2600 RPM than with the stock cam, head pipe and the same mufflers!



Jamie, this is great data for helping to 'see' how mufflers and cams interacts and impact each other and it's not what I want to really hear.  I have a 107 Freewheeler with a WM8-22x and CFR which I assume are at the bottom of your list of large open baffled mufflers (stock headpipes with CAT).  I am running one of your maps made for my configuration and it does seem to run great.

My question is that with this type of set up could a dyno tune offer some noticeable improvements without any changes to the cam and pipes?  Or would it be a complete waste of money because of the set up I have?

I realize that spending that money on the right set of pipes would probably give me even more power without dyno tune then my set up with a tune, but I really like what I have.  I'm just wondering if a dyno tune can reduce say a 20 Tq dip to 10 Tq dip.  Most of my riding is between 2.5 and 4.5k.  Hopefully your answer will be that a tune for me will have greater potential for gains than a perfectly matched system would.

And or would your torque inserts help in my situation?... but now I'm screwing with the sound.
Hope this makes sense and thanks for your thoughts... Ron

Jamie Long

Quote from: Ronbo2 on December 16, 2019, 10:46:41 PM

Jamie, this is great data for helping to 'see' how mufflers and cams interacts and impact each other and it's not what I want to really hear.  I have a 107 Freewheeler with a WM8-22x and CFR which I assume are at the bottom of your list of large open baffled mufflers (stock headpipes with CAT).  I am running one of your maps made for my configuration and it does seem to run great.

My question is that with this type of set up could a dyno tune offer some noticeable improvements without any changes to the cam and pipes?  Or would it be a complete waste of money because of the set up I have?

I realize that spending that money on the right set of pipes would probably give me even more power without dyno tune then my set up with a tune, but I really like what I have.  I'm just wondering if a dyno tune can reduce say a 20 Tq dip to 10 Tq dip.  Most of my riding is between 2.5 and 4.5k.  Hopefully your answer will be that a tune for me will have greater potential for gains than a perfectly matched system would.

And or would your torque inserts help in my situation?... but now I'm screwing with the sound.
Hope this makes sense and thanks for your thoughts... Ron

A dyno tune will correct any deficiencies in the tune however it will not correct any shortcomings in the actual engine/exhaust combination as you cannot bend the laws of physics. Another way of saying this is if the tune is not correct you may see come gains, however you cannot overcome an inherent issue of a component thats not playing well with the rest of the combination with tuning. When it comes to CFR mufflers (or other similar designs) you need to consider what is most important; sound, aesthetics, or performance and choose your primary objective.

RTMike


Jamie Long

For those interested we put together a list of advertised Milwaukee-8 cam specs for assorted manufacturers. We will continue to add to this as new cams are released. This list can also be found on the FM University site > https://university.fuelmotousa.com/article/cam-specs/















Buglet


03wglide

Awesome cam data base, appreciate the effort putting it all together!

Will decatting the stock headpipe have any negative effect on performance or require any map changes(Touring M8 w/S&S Grand National mufflers)? I'd like to gut the pipe to reduce heat.

Sunny Jim

I am keen to see some results on the Andrews 464   If anyone can contribute.

joepenoso

   Why do  S&S cams have larger exhaust opening duration compared to others? I always thought longer exhaust duration reduces torque but allows a louder exhaust note.
Thanks
joepenoso

Oclaf

interesting information, thanks for doing it, my question is, as i may have missed it, what are the specs for the stock/factory cam? lift, opening, duration, etc...

thats a question for anyone that knows, not just FM

rigidthumper

Intake     -07/01,  .350"
Exhaust    33/-14, .374"
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?