Sumping issues solved

[Durwood]

Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA

My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?

My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.

I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.

We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.

Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped?  Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.

Chris

I haven't had an opportunity to mess with it yet. It won't be too long.

[Vision]

Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS,  I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap.  It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out.  The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this?  Contrary to some of what I’ve read from others,  I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn’t 10 miles from my home.

I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124.  I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate.  With just about 500 miles on the build,  when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot. 

Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.

I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution. 

[rbabos]

Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS,  I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap.  It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out.  The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this?  Contrary to some of what I've read from others,  I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn't 10 miles from my home.

I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124.  I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate.  With just about 500 miles on the build,  when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot. 

Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.

I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution.

That right there points to the head vents not working. There should be 0 pressure build up.
Ron

[Vision]

Great Point!  Given that,  do you support the concept of using Hayden valves in conjunction with an external Breather setup to only allow air to vent out?

Or does the Hayden valve present a risk and not really worth it?

[Nastytls]

Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS,  I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap.  It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out.  The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this?  Contrary to some of what I've read from others,  I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn't 10 miles from my home.

I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124.  I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate.  With just about 500 miles on the build,  when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot. 

Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.

I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution.

That right there points to the head vents not working. There should be 0 pressure build up.
Ron

Do the M8's have the same style breather umbrella that the TC have? If so, they were probably installed backwards.

[rbabos]

Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS,  I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap.  It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out.  The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this?  Contrary to some of what I've read from others,  I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn't 10 miles from my home.

I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124.  I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate.  With just about 500 miles on the build,  when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot. 

Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.

I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution.

That right there points to the head vents not working. There should be 0 pressure build up.
Ron

Do the M8's have the same style breather umbrella that the TC have? If so, they were probably installed backwards.

I've wondered that as well but that can be checked without disassembly.
Ron

[rbabos]

Great Point!  Given that,  do you support the concept of using Hayden valves in conjunction with an external Breather setup to only allow air to vent out?

Or does the Hayden valve present a risk and not really worth it?

If the head breather are either not working or require an abnormal amount of force to open , then any one way valve would be a bonus.
Ron

[Vision]

They are different from what aI understand.  With the m8 style Breathers,  I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.

[Vision]

They are different from what aI understand.  With the m8 style Breathers,  I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.

Thanks Ron!

[FSG]

They are different from what aI understand.  With the m8 style Breathers,  I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.

they are totally different from a TC, there is a front one and a rear one,

I've not seen either one so I've no idea as to what's inside

but at 12 skins each there cant be much

the rear one

https://i.imgur.com/6uG1tr0.png

https://i.imgur.com/fmvJBxQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/edvNGMc.png

[Billy]

They are different from what aI understand.  With the m8 style Breathers,  I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.

they are totally different from a TC, there is a front one and a rear one,

I've not seen either one so I've no idea as to what's inside

the rear one

https://i.imgur.com/6uG1tr0.png

https://i.imgur.com/fmvJBxQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/edvNGMc.png

Yup.

You would need a hammer to open one up.

[Hilly13]

Might see if I can get one just to open it up

[DTTJGlide]

I've got one in my hand right now, it's a plastic sealed unit & it appears to be working as designed, lets air out & seals when trying to blow back into it. One advantage I see to it is the intake for the unit is on the very top about 1.5" above the base of the head making it harder for oil to get into it. I still think ring seal has something to do with this whole issue.

[Hilly13]

I've got one in my hand right now, it's a plastic sealed unit & it appears to be working as designed, lets air out & seals when trying to blow back into it. One advantage I see to it is the intake for the unit is on the very top about 1.5" above the base of the head making it harder for oil to get into it. I still think ring seal has something to do with this whole issue.

The one you have works, that's good but earlier a chap stated he was shown one that didn't seal properly, hit and miss aye? Shouldn't be surprised I guess.

[Vision]

That chap may have been me.  Lol.  Last summer I watched as a builder was able to get air going in both directions through the M8 Crank vents.  He actually had a split vent exposing the inside and it the internals seemed pretty flimsy. The umbrella valve is literally the size  of a small child’s finger nail.  It’s nothing that could withstand any real pressure.  There is a small sponge inside to catch some of the moisture/froth.  I remember him teeing off the breather valves and running that into an air pressure guage, which clearly showed air going in both directions with the motor on.  That’s the first time I saw an external Breather with a Hayden valve at work.  When he introduced the Hayden Valve after the Tee,  and checked the air pressure out of the Hayden, the needle on the air gague went in one direction and stayed  there showing that there was no more fluctuation.  He does suggest to swap out the umbella valve in the Hayden with the one from Harley for the EVO Crank vent due to its added durability.

For the stock motors, they’re probably fine for a while, but the Larger builds may make quick work of the stock vents.

[rbabos]

That chap may have been me.  Lol.  Last summer I watched as a builder was able to get air going in both directions through the M8 Crank vents.  He actually had a split vent exposing the inside and it the internals seemed pretty flimsy. The umbrella valve is literally the size  of a small child's finger nail.  It's nothing that could withstand any real pressure.  There is a small sponge inside to catch some of the moisture/froth.  I remember him teeing off the breather valves and running that into an air pressure guage, which clearly showed air going in both directions with the motor on.  That's the first time I saw an external Breather with a Hayden valve at work.  When he introduced the Hayden Valve after the Tee,  and checked the air pressure out of the Hayden, the needle on the air gague went in one direction and stayed  there showing that there was no more fluctuation.  He does suggest to swap out the umbella valve in the Hayden with the one from Harley for the EVO Crank vent due to its added durability.

For the stock motors, they're probably fine for a while, but the Larger builds may make quick work of the stock vents.

This poor breather stuff is part of the sumping issues we read about as far as I can tell. They need to work as intended or they are garbage. No half way around it.
Ron

[cmashark]

Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA

My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?

My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.

I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.

We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.

Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped?  Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.

Chris

I haven't had an opportunity to mess with it yet. It won't be too long.

Daren, just wondering if you'd had any more sumping issues since installing the new oil pump cover with the seal and if you measured any compression changes since the installing the big bore. What cylinders did you use?

Chris

[Helmwurst]

On these breather vents, I have my rocker covers off now and took one of the breathers out. Anyone know how to test or can explain how they are supposed to work? I am assuming the flow freely in one direction and should hold off in the other? How much pressure/vacuum?

[Durwood]

Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA

My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?

My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.

I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.

We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.

Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped?  Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.

Chris

I haven't had an opportunity to mess with it yet. It won't be too long.

Daren, just wondering if you'd had any more sumping issues since installing the new oil pump cover with the seal and if you measured any compression changes since the installing the big bore. What cylinders did you use?

Chris

No sumping yet after several max power runs on the dyno. S&S cylinders. My compression has been all over the place with the different cams I've ran in it as a 107 and 124.

[happyman]

Great to hear.

a seal is a fix  huh?  how long a fix. one ride tells nothing.  not that it couldn't but got to wonder

[codyshop]

For what it's worth, my first generation Arlen Ness M-8 Big Sucker air cleaner spit oil all over the rear headpipe, right saddlebag...and my right leg.   I was sent the second generation unit that fixed the spew, but pressured up the cases because the dovetail grooves machined then powder coated on the black backing plate were too small and pinched the rubber nozzels closed when you assembled it.   I took it all apart, filed off the powder coating in the nozzel channels and all is well again...and no oil mist on the right side of the bike.   

[Reddog74usa]

This thread seems to be a bit dormant and I was wondering if a fix for the sumping has been found. Are the 19's still having this issue or do we have a fix???

[BigT]

I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs?  I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....

[Reddog74usa]

Well after that reply I'm going to surmise that a fix has not been found, just band-aids. Wonder if it's some kind of inherent flaw in the casting of the cases??? All I know is there's a lot of riders being left holding the bag. Stopped by my local dealer yesterday and talked to a guy that had his bike back at the dealer for the 5th time with an 18 M8. I don't know how their going to stay afloat treating customers like this. I feel badly for those caught up in this and hope this gets resolved very soon.

[Vision]

I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs?  I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....

That is not acceptable.  For folks with warranty in tact,  7 ounces would be cause for Harley to break down your engine looking for damage.  I have a Feuling race setup on my 124 M8 RGS with a little over a 1200 mile post stage 4 sumping event and Feuling and 124 install and the bike is running strong.   I will have the CPS pulled in the first week of June when I have my 5000 mile service done.  Will let you know what comes out.