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Technical Forums => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: r0de_runr on January 31, 2019, 01:36:01 PM

Title: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: r0de_runr on January 31, 2019, 01:36:01 PM
I read several boards an on a CVO board someone posted some video of a casting flaw between the two rear lifter bores that pumps oil.  I'll post a ling to the post and a nother link to the youtube video.

https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=117797.0;topicseen

https://youtu.be/tlxropf66SQ

Interesting.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: 98fxstc on January 31, 2019, 02:02:02 PM
good pickup Jason
:up:
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: joe_lyons on January 31, 2019, 04:22:14 PM
So if enough oil get into the cam compartment it could drain over into the flywheel cavity causing sumping?  That is a good catch for sure on the problem with the casting but I don't know if it would cause sumping.  Good thing the Radio only displays pretty much a 5psi dummy light.  That is a lot of oil that not going to the lifters or the oilers,  probably drops overall pressure.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: DTTJGlide on January 31, 2019, 05:13:16 PM
It's a good find, but not sure how the addition of the plate & seal would correct that & you would think the added capacity of the dual scavenge S&S would do a better job & it doesn't.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: rbabos on January 31, 2019, 06:09:54 PM
I bet someone at HD is sweating bullets now after seeing that. That can definitely overpower the scavenge side. Normally the feed side has all metered predictable leak rates to all components as in clearances or metered holes . This is a straight out heavy duty leak.
Ron
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: lickidysplit on January 31, 2019, 06:40:44 PM
That is not good! I don't know that it would cause sumping. but it would cause an overall pressure drop. That thing is bleeding internally. I sure hope this is just a one off deal ! Harley needs to get their "Potty mouth" together!
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: RoadGlideRob on February 01, 2019, 05:01:26 AM
would be really cool if some of the builders on here who have test mules that are not sumping could verify those bottom ends don't have this flaw and someone who has a sumping motor could verify theirs does.  would help put a lot of minds at ease for those of us who bought an M8. I could easily check mine once we had a little more evidence from those two groups
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: IronButt70 on February 01, 2019, 10:21:22 AM
What happened to the youtube video?
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: r0de_runr on February 01, 2019, 10:49:02 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on February 01, 2019, 10:21:22 AM
What happened to the youtube video?
Wow, yes it's gone....there are still images in the ref posting on cvo
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: rbabos on February 01, 2019, 10:51:00 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on February 01, 2019, 10:21:22 AM
What happened to the youtube video?
HD legal team. :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: DTTJGlide on February 01, 2019, 11:23:16 AM
Sorry to say, but technically what the poster is doing is illegal, it's the same thing MOCO got busted for. He may have had second thoughts about opening up that can of worms :idunno:
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Geezer_Glider on February 01, 2019, 11:43:38 AM
That leak might not overwhelm the scavenge pump but sure could screw with breathing through the push-rod tubes for that cylinder and pressure balance in the engine. Maybe even flood the head up the tube?
Just saying,
R Meyer
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Hilly13 on February 01, 2019, 11:54:26 AM
40oz out of the sump, sure sounds like the scavenging was overwhelmed, it could well be a one off or just a really bad example of "the problem", time will tell.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: 86fxwg on February 01, 2019, 12:35:31 PM
video hear.


https://www.facebook.com/158175674212864/videos/505262466666265/


86
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Txwezl on February 01, 2019, 02:23:48 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on February 01, 2019, 11:23:16 AM
Sorry to say, but technically what the poster is doing is illegal, it's the same thing MOCO got busted for. He may have had second thoughts about opening up that can of worms :idunno:

Why is it illegal? Changing the oil pump has no effect on exhaust emissions.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: 86fxwg on February 01, 2019, 02:58:44 PM
Off road use only.

86
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: turboprop on February 01, 2019, 03:54:37 PM
The video is still up on the CVO page.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: doubletrouble on February 01, 2019, 04:24:39 PM
This is exactly why we would x-ray all of our small g.m. blocks before we would sink a small fortune in them back in the early 90's when we were building flat crank 180 motors , primarly looking for core shift but occasionally we would encounter sand pockets , if that block had made in mexico on it , there was a very good chance we would just throw it out in the pile. Yup , they were that bad. Not sure if thats what we seen in this video.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: BVHOG on February 01, 2019, 05:14:50 PM
WTF?  That's a lot of oil in a running engine when it pumps out like that with a small turn.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: PoorUB on February 01, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
The YouTube video shows up for me.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on February 01, 2019, 06:25:04 PM
Maybe the OP had second thoughts about posting evidence of his breaking warranty coverage?  :nix:
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on February 01, 2019, 06:27:15 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 01, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
The YouTube video shows up for me.
That's odd. I checked this morning and it was definitely gone, now it's back  :scratch:
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: IronButt70 on February 01, 2019, 06:58:05 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on February 01, 2019, 06:27:15 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 01, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
The YouTube video shows up for me.
That's odd. I checked this morning and it was definitely gone, now it's back  :scratch:
Same here. Said video not available this morning. :nix:
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Hilly13 on February 01, 2019, 08:22:59 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on February 01, 2019, 05:14:50 PM
WTF?  That's a lot of oil in a running engine when it pumps out like that with a small turn.
You had any sumpers through the shop Bob? That's got to worth a look if one pops up aye?
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Txwezl on February 02, 2019, 04:06:55 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on February 01, 2019, 06:25:04 PM
Maybe the OP had second thoughts about posting evidence of his breaking warranty coverage?  :nix:

I see no VIN on the video. The OP was a shop. No way to prove the bike was "tampered with" if you put stock parts back on and it hasn't been tuned with a non compliant tuner.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: BVHOG on February 02, 2019, 08:17:00 AM
Quote from: Hilly13 on February 01, 2019, 08:22:59 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on February 01, 2019, 05:14:50 PM
WTF?  That's a lot of oil in a running engine when it pumps out like that with a small turn.
You had any sumpers through the shop Bob? That's got to worth a look if one pops up aye?
To be perfectly honest, I have not seen a single one yet, going to tune a 19 today that I just did cams in that didn't have the new backing plate which I installed.  Pulling a cvo 19 apart as well and will have a look at that area. Crazy to see something like that.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: HD/Wrench on February 02, 2019, 01:32:18 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on February 01, 2019, 11:23:16 AM
Sorry to say, but technically what the poster is doing is illegal, it's the same thing MOCO got busted for. He may have had second thoughts about opening up that can of worms :idunno:

How is it illegal ??  He is showing an engine case for a bike what is the legal issue there ??  I have and would again tell HD go pound sand . When I posted the new parts books I got a call  , told them to jam it , 


here is the video ,

https://www.facebook.com/158175674212864/videos/505262466666265/
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: rbabos on February 02, 2019, 02:03:26 PM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on February 02, 2019, 01:32:18 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on February 01, 2019, 11:23:16 AM
Sorry to say, but technically what the poster is doing is illegal, it's the same thing MOCO got busted for. He may have had second thoughts about opening up that can of worms :idunno:

How is it illegal ??  He is showing an engine case for a bike what is the legal issue there ??  I have and would again tell HD go pound sand . When I posted the new parts books I got a call  , told them to jam it , 


here is the video ,

https://www.facebook.com/158175674212864/videos/505262466666265/
:hyst: I have seen you tell them to move along once. They did.
Ron
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: HD/Wrench on February 02, 2019, 02:27:51 PM
V twin show ..   :hyst: :hyst:  Yes it was not a very pleasant comment , I was not asking lets put it that way
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Hilly13 on February 02, 2019, 03:00:20 PM
Yes well you have every right to tell them where to go and it's no secret even if they are in denial.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Nastytls on February 03, 2019, 12:33:20 PM
That's what bullies need, a swift backhand to put them in their place.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: bxbutch on February 04, 2019, 09:08:48 AM
Did you see the photo of the light shining thru the porous case posted yesterday  Butch
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: BVHOG on February 05, 2019, 02:33:14 PM
Just pulled down a bike to install a cam lifters, etc.  I can see where this could easily be a place for problems as it gets thing in that area of the lifter bore.
It appears that the oil passage from the lifter bore to the piston oilers is where the machining may be off or the case may have some serious core shift. Do you have any more pics of where the oil is actually getting through?
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Hilly13 on February 05, 2019, 11:32:27 PM
That pic was one Jason took Bob, was just the one pic and the vid that I saw.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: HD/Wrench on February 06, 2019, 05:40:33 AM
Quote from: BVHOG on February 05, 2019, 02:33:14 PM
Just pulled down a bike to install a cam lifters, etc.  I can see where this could easily be a place for problems as it gets thing in that area of the lifter bore.
It appears that the oil passage from the lifter bore to the piston oilers is where the machining may be off or the case may have some serious core shift. Do you have any more pics of where the oil is actually getting through?


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7840/32064294687_121e4b41ca_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QRpTH2)50794743_2289511831079227_8155061637087232000_n (https://flic.kr/p/QRpTH2) by GMR Performance (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146449314@N07/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: spunky_man on February 09, 2019, 09:59:00 PM
so forgive me if I'm wrong, but so jb weld or something to bloke the hole might fix the issue!!!. explains the sumping on high rpm runs and the supposed cavitation on the return side of the pump as if all the oils in the cam side and none the crank chest causes it to suck air. s&s pump might help but would be over whelmed when only getting oil in one return side not both
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Nastytls on February 10, 2019, 03:26:26 AM
JB Weld? I wouldn't trust that stuff inside my engine case. I'd be calling HD insisting they replace the POS that they sold me with something that doesn't have massive casting flaws.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: sandrooney on February 10, 2019, 06:47:36 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on February 10, 2019, 03:26:26 AM
JB Weld? I wouldn't trust that stuff inside my engine case. I'd be calling HD insisting they replace the POS that they sold me with something that doesn't have massive casting flaws.

Agree!!!  Hopefully the warranty is still intact .
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: spunky_man on February 11, 2019, 12:13:56 AM
 :agree: but in a few mouths the first of the m8's will be out of warranty, so looking at the cheap fix for thoughs guys that will still have the problem when there warranty runs out. would i use jb weld, probably not. but the thread had stalled and this is one important tread that needs to keep going even if it mean saying something like that to get it going again and to make people think. thank guys
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Will-Run on February 11, 2019, 05:39:17 AM
That hole could be welded up, if warranty was over. Would be a better shot than JB.Weld.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Txwezl on February 11, 2019, 05:51:00 AM
How do you propose welding it without clogging the oil gallery?
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: PoorUB on February 11, 2019, 07:44:32 AM
I have some experience with JB Weld. No warranty? I would consider JB.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: rigidthumper on February 11, 2019, 07:56:26 AM
Quote from: spunky_man on February 11, 2019, 12:13:56 AM
:agree: but in a few mouths the first of the m8's will be out of warranty, so looking at the cheap fix for those guys that will still have the problem when there warranty runs out. would i use jb weld, probably not. but the thread had stalled and this is one important tread that needs to keep going even if it mean saying something like that to get it going again and to make people think. thank guys

The first M8s (2017 models) were out of  warranty last summer, as they were bought in August of 16.  Has anybody else seen this? Is this a one off casting flaw, or a common issue? Anybody else with an M8 apart can confirm there's more than 1 like this?
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: JMHD on February 11, 2019, 08:53:27 AM
Just had a 2017 107 FLHX apart for a stg 4. Checked this area while it was apart and it was good. Lifter bores were smooth too. Have seen lifter bores that are full of pockets and pits.  I think it is hit and miss.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: Moparnut72 on February 11, 2019, 09:50:17 AM
I had a co-worker years ago that once worked in a shop that worked on new engines and components from a major auto manufacturer. He said they did all kinds of "fixes" to correct manufacturing flaws mostly resulting from core shifts. He said they did all kinds of goofy stuff to save a block. He also said he wondered what an engine rebuilder got one of these down the road for reconditioning and saw some of these one off parts to work with such things as offset cranks, cams, odd sized lifter bores etc. Unfortunately these kinds of things happen to all manufacturers. Too bad they aren't caught before the customer gets one.
kk
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: 1workinman on February 11, 2019, 04:54:31 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 11, 2019, 07:44:32 AM
I have some experience with JB Weld. No warranty? I would consider JB.
Well I was thinking that also or some kind of epoxy . I had a set of angle plugs the intake ports were some kind of epoxy that came off a g gas car that set the record a long time ago .I bought the heads and several other parts to build my street motor.  . Never gave any problems
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: 1workinman on February 11, 2019, 05:01:52 PM
Quote from: Moparnut72 on February 11, 2019, 09:50:17 AM
I had a co-worker years ago that once worked in a shop that worked on new engines and components from a major auto manufacturer. He said they did all kinds of "fixes" to correct manufacturing flaws mostly resulting from core shifts. He said they did all kinds of goofy stuff to save a block. He also said he wondered what an engine rebuilder got one of these down the road for reconditioning and saw some of these one off parts to work with such things as offset cranks, cams, odd sized lifter bores etc. Unfortunately these kinds of things happen to all manufacturers. Too bad they aren't caught before the customer gets one.
kk
True I was a mechanic for GM and I think that they had a bad run of blocks and seems like the fix was to use a stand and and under size main bearings . After all of the warranty work and crap I saw I went to work in the oil field never looked back
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: BVHOG on February 12, 2019, 06:05:30 AM
Had a tiny hole like this in a cast iron head many years ago from spring seat machining and core shift. I used one of these to fix it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0wfU4ZaKk
If it was my own bike I would use an epoxy and never look back. Customer bike is a whole different deal.
Title: Re: Could this be the cause of sumping?
Post by: cmashark on February 12, 2019, 04:58:22 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on February 12, 2019, 06:05:30 AM
Had a tiny hole like this in a cast iron head many years ago from spring seat machining and core shift. I used one of these to fix it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq0wfU4ZaKk
If it was my own bike I would use an epoxy and never look back. Customer bike is a whole different deal.

That's pretty cool.  I'd like to see what pressure it would take to make the lock stitch fail.