My motor would sump after being run at prolonged high rpm. I installed an S&S pump and plate but still got 11 oz to drain through the crankshaft position sensor opening. I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix
Great to hear.
Now WHY should that be a "$25 fix"? It should be a warranty fix! :angry:
I might have voided my warranty when I personally tore the motor apart and made it 117"
I've been watching this sumping issues on these M8's closely.
Tman (TR) just came out with his fix for the sumping issue with a scraper that requires the cases to be split and machined to accept his fix...now the MoCo has came out with a $25.00 seal to fix it...and they are not willing to go back to fix the other M8's. :dgust: This is going to get very interesting to watch and see what it actually takes to fix the sumping issues. I hope the best for the OP and I hope he has found the fix. :up: If someone ever gets this problem truly worked out...my interest in owning a M8 will begin. :teeth:
I'm just curious, and not familiar with the M8 cases...but is there a sump plug in the bottom of the case like there is on a twin cam? I was just wondering why you pulled the crank position sensor to check it for sumping, if there is a sump plug in the bottom of the case. :nix: I'm about to learn something here.
So you removed the S&S pump?
Yes I pulled the S&S pump and reinstalled the latest HD pump I had previously ran but with the new cover.
M8 cases do have a sump drain like the Twin Cam but the crank position sensor is also at the bottom of the case, has an o ring seal, and held in place with a 1/4" ALLEN bolt
thanks for the info on the sump plug. :up:
I wasn't aware that the crank position sensor is on the bottom of the M8 cases, and not higher up on the case like a twin cam. I'm learning. :SM:
Does the M8 oil pump bolt to the crankcase, and nor like the cam plate in a TC?
Then this seal closes up the oil flow trough the main bearing into the cam chest?
I am trying to get a grasp on what this does and why it improves scavenging.
Big T, for clarity I am assuming you checked the sump at the sensor to get the one ounce?
Quote from: PoorUB on September 24, 2018, 07:46:30 PM
Does the M8 oil pump bolt to the crankcase, and nor like the cam plate in a TC?
Then this seal closes up the oil flow trough the main bearing into the cam chest?
I am trying to get a grasp on what this does and why it improves scavenging.
Same set up as the twin cam. Oil pump bolts to the cam plate. Bolting the cam plate to the cases applies pressure against the new seal that seals off oil flow throw the main bearing.
Quote from: Durwood on September 25, 2018, 04:06:28 AM
Big T, for clarity I am assuming you checked the sump at the sensor to get the one ounce?
Yes I have been checking at the sensor.
Quote from: BigT on September 25, 2018, 04:52:01 AM
Quote from: Durwood on September 25, 2018, 04:06:28 AM
Big T, for clarity I am assuming you checked the sump at the sensor to get the one ounce?
Yes I have been checking at the sensor.
Thanks.
On one of the M8 pages on Facebook, there is a guy that said that his 2019 FLHTK sumped after 1400 miles.
From what I saw of that post he "thinks" it has that issue, the dealer is evaluating it now.
I wonder why sealing off the main bearing improves scavenging?
The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.
So what path does the motor breath through after sealing off the crank area?
Quote from: BVHOG on September 25, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.
So what path does the motor breath through after sealing off the crank area?
Maybe it doesn't completely close it off, that's why I said more defined, not sealed off.
I just read the wording on the Tech Tip Bulletin in the opening post. What a bunch of weasel words. "Updated" "no action required" "for awareness only" "retrofittable to previous model year" So I ask, why in the #eII did they put the R&D into it and manufacture it? DUH
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on September 25, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.
So what path does the motor breath through after sealing off the crank area?
Maybe it doesn't completely close it off, that's why I said more defined, not sealed off.
What does the seal look like, is it a flap that allows air from the flywheel compartment to pass into the cam chest but seals if it tries to suck the other way?
Or maybe they are using any crank case pressure to push oil to the return pump.
Big T did you get a picture of the seal?
Reports on HDF of a couple 2019's sumping. There is a video of a 2019 CVO draining oil from the bottom case.
Picture of the oil pump seal in this link, post 25.
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1254847-sumping-solved-3.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1254847-sumping-solved-3.html)
Video 2019 CVO:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov)
Quote from: klammer76 on September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM
Reports on HDF of a couple 2019's sumping. There is a video of a 2019 CVO draining oil from the bottom case.
Picture of the oil pump seal in this link, post 25.
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1254847-sumping-solved-3.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1254847-sumping-solved-3.html)
Thanks
Depending on how tightly that seal is compressed it will definitely allow pressure from the flywheel compartment to escape though the pinion bearing past the bellow shape side of the seal and into the cam compartment. It looks like they want it to work just like an umbrella valve against the outside of the bearing race. It's design exposes a lot of surface area on the long beveled flap portion to any pressure/vacuum from the flywheel compartment. Basically a simpler rubber version of the S&S reed valve from the Twin cam.
https://www.sscycle.com/docs/default-source/instruction-sheets/510-0373_breather_reed_valve_20150615.pdf?sfvrsn=2 (https://www.sscycle.com/docs/default-source/instruction-sheets/510-0373_breather_reed_valve_20150615.pdf?sfvrsn=2)
I didn't take a picture of it but by the size of the seal it looked to me that it would completely seal around the bearing isolating the two sections of the cases.
Quote from: BigT on September 26, 2018, 04:40:25 AM
I didn't take a picture of it but by the size of the seal it looked to me that it would completely seal around the bearing isolating the two sections of the cases.
I am sure it seals in the direction they want it to but if they wanted to hold pressure in the flywheel section they would have hinged the flap the other way so that inside pressure pushed it tighter to the bearing surface.
Quote from: klammer76 on September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM
Video 2019 CVO:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov)
That's an awful lot of oil coming out of there.
Quote from: Nastytls on September 26, 2018, 04:57:00 AM
Quote from: klammer76 on September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM
Video 2019 CVO:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov)
That's an awful lot of oil coming out of there.
Nope, you worry too much. :hyst: Oh please , let me go out and buy one of these fkg POS M8s, NOT. Between this and trans migration the whole thing is getting a bit of comical "Potty mouth" show. Time to call Porsche for advice. :wink:
Ron
I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.
Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD. :doh:
Looks like I might have spoke too soon claiming the problem was solved. I barely got 1oz of oil to drain
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.
Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD. :doh:
You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.
I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!
I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..? :wtf:
Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...
Quote from: hattitude on September 26, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.
Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD. :doh:
You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.
I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!
I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..? :wtf:
Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...
.... Just like they increased the allowable runout on the TC cranks. :banghead: More weasel moves.
Quote from: kd on September 26, 2018, 08:48:34 AM
Quote from: hattitude on September 26, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.
Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD. :doh:
You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.
I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!
I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..? :wtf:
Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...
.... Just like they increased the allowable runout on the TC cranks. :banghead: More weasel moves.
:agree: That's what I said. Ridiculous.
Quote from: Nastytls on September 26, 2018, 04:57:00 AM
Quote from: klammer76 on September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM
Video 2019 CVO:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov)
That's an awful lot of oil coming out of there.
There is another video also but on a 2017. That one shows it better. Member here had his 2018 sump last week at Paris HD on way to Sandoval run. Said oil tank was empty and crank case full. This is just crazy.
Quote from: hattitude on September 26, 2018, 08:38:42 AM
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
I'm so glad I didn't run out and buy a M8.
I'll keep watching and waiting. I want one...but I'm not willing to drop down that kind of coin for a new bike that has the issues it has.
Someone high up top in the chain of command @ the MoCo needs to put a boot in the engineers asses and get this situation sorted out. It's a damn shame they release an engine that sumps like the one in the video. Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD. :doh:
You are not alone... I feel the same way, and know 3 other people with similar opinions... I don't think the MoCo realizes how many sales of M8s they have lost with their failure to jump on this and fix it right away.
I know that you wouldn't be able to give me, as well as my friends, a '17, '18, and now '19 M8 bike....!
I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..? :wtf:
Just a crazy lack of of response to a problem...
I too was really thinking about a 2019 hoping the issue was corrected. Just can't do it at this point. Very disappointing. I am now starting to lean toward the need to redesign the case for scavenging and venting. I feel sorry for those that just don't put on a lot of miles in a two year warranty period and then have a problem once out of warranty. Live with a stock bike for two years w/o even an exhaust change for warranty, no problem say with 10,000 miles on bike then do an exhaust, tuner etc and have sumping occur. Engine is toast (having nothing to do with the slight modifications) and a new motor is on your dime and will be the same design.... Harley still just turns a blind eye to this and moves forward. I would love to know what is being said behind closed doors during a board meeting.
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 07:30:04 AM
Those kind of results should drive customers away and the sales should plummet. Just think...I wonder how many people are out there riding around on their new M8...basically unaware of this issue. But...they do have a new shiny HD. :doh:
I have a friend that bought a '17 Ultra. He loves it. I did not mention a thing about any of the potential problems with it, I'm trying to keep out of other people's situations unless they ask. It's not easy.
So far he has had no issues, that he is aware of, of course.
I've got a few friends with new M8's too.
I don't question them about anything either. I just keep a watchful eye out and absorb all the things they say that have improved over the previous models. They tell me how the ride is so much better and the new power is simply amazing.
Then I just show them a twin cam tail light after they tell me how much quicker they are. :wink:
Hoss...I want one...but I think now is not the time for me to get one with all the issues still happening. When I retired a few years ago my plan was to buy myself a new bike. I'm still waiting and I keep hoping that the MoCo will finally step up and get the bugs worked out of them. If not...my new bike money keeps on growing in Edward Jones hands. Maybe I'll be able to buy two bikes by the time they get it straightened out. :hyst:
Hattitude "I also read on the other forum that the MoCo has now raised the allowable amount of oil to drain from the sump to 12oz...!?!?!? Didn't it start out at 3oz..?
They didn`t have to go back very far in the play book to increase the allowable .......... what ever number.
Maybe HD should go to one hole , one oil. :emoGroan:
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 11:32:34 AM
I've got a few friends with new M8's too.
I don't question them about anything either. I just keep a watchful eye out and absorb all the things they say that have improved over the previous models. They tell me how the ride is so much better and the new power is simply amazing.
Then I just show them a twin cam tail light after they tell me how much quicker they are. :wink:
Hoss...I want one...but I think now is not the time for me to get one with all the issues still happening. When I retired a few years ago my plan was to buy myself a new bike. I'm still waiting and I keep hoping that the MoCo will finally step up and get the bugs worked out of them. If not...my new bike money keeps on growing in Edward Jones hands. Maybe I'll be able to buy two bikes by the time they get it straightened out. :hyst:
Now Ray, you know where the extra money will go. It'll get 8-up. :fish: :hyst: :hyst:
you know it will kd. My whole life a new stock bike lasted me the length of the ride home from the dealership before I trashed the warranty. I can't help myself...it's a sickness. :hyst:
...if the MoCo can't get the stock M8's right...then a big block M8 looks like to me it would have even a shorter life span. I'll wait.
There are a lot of smart guys out there trying to come up with the needed fixes for these things. I'm just waiting for it all to happen. Once it does then I will cross over into the world of the M8's. Until then...my T/C will just have to suffice.
I don't know how you can stand it Ray. :wink:
Harley still just turns a blind eye to this and moves forward. I would love to know what is being said behind closed doors during a board meeting.
[/quote]
Probably saying some people will complain if you hung them with a new rope...
The'll get over it and just buy our latest and greatest M8 114.... :koolaid4:
Quote from: Hunter14 on September 26, 2018, 05:17:26 PM
Harley still just turns a blind eye to this and moves forward. I would love to know what is being said behind closed doors during a board meeting.
Probably saying some people will complain if you hung them with a new rope...
The'll get over it and just buy our latest and greatest M8 114.... :koolaid4:
[/quote]
Could very well be, but I think as time goes on and this persists and possibly becomes more main stream, that pool may get shallower & shallower.
Mine sumped two doors down from Paris . I am going to do the first service this weekend will measure all three holes this is the fifth generation oil pump . They didn't get it right in five tries I have little faith this will work . Many folk think roadglides are ugly well it may be time to say by to Harley and hello to either Honda or BMW but damn that Beemer is one ugly bike lol. Maybe I will get lucky with this damn bike. Oh wait I am waiting for them to decide how they are going to fix bubbling paint . Hey Harley hope you read this .
Just FYI, I also have an 18 RGS that is pumping. Drained a little more than 10 oz. our of the sump plug. I tore it apart with just over 3000 miles on it. The oil pump surfaces are ridiculously poor finishes. I'm receiving the S&S pump and campmate Monday. I got a call from a friend in Florida that I had told him I believed the problem was crankcase venting. He talked to one of the owners of a dealership and told him what I said. He said that his belief as well. He said EPA has put the screws to Harley and caused them to restrict the crankcase breathing and also the transmission breathing. His claim is that is reason for the migration of the transmission oil to the primary and the dumping issues on the engine. I've already screwed my warranty which I always do anyway. Will be looking at the breathing issues and adding external breathing hoses to the heads, venting to the ground. Also, removing the transmission cover and checking the size of the venting hole. I checked runout on the crank yesterday and it is an awesome .001. I've never owned a Harley with a stock crank that was that good. Will it last? Time will tell.
Smarty
:up: thanks for the info Smarty! I'll watch to see what you find.
With the sounds of the issues going on with these M8's...my initial thought was the cases were building up excessive pressure inside them which could be causing all kinds of problems. I kept my mouth shut and just kept watching to what was all going on. I think you could be very well right about the engine and tranny needing more venting to release internal pressures that seem to be building up. :up:
I know I bought a new black HD tranny cover for my 08 T/C at the dealership, which I quickly noticed when I took it out of the box it had a smaller venting hole and hose on it, than what the original chrome cover came with from the factory. With the new cover installed it built pressure up in my tranny. :kick: So I removed it, and I scuffed up the original chrome cover and I just painted it black. The tranny didn't build up any more pressure after putting the original cover back on it with the larger venting hole and hose.
Quote from: Smarty on September 27, 2018, 07:15:20 AM
Just FYI, I also have an 18 RGS that is pumping. Drained a little more than 10 oz. our of the sump plug. I tore it apart with just over 3000 miles on it. The oil pump surfaces are ridiculously poor finishes. I'm receiving the S&S pump and campmate Monday. I got a call from a friend in Florida that I had told him I believed the problem was crankcase venting. He talked to one of the owners of a dealership and told him what I said. He said that his belief as well. He said EPA has put the screws to Harley and caused them to restrict the crankcase breathing and also the transmission breathing. His claim is that is reason for the migration of the transmission oil to the primary and the dumping issues on the engine. I've already screwed my warranty which I always do anyway. Will be looking at the breathing issues and adding external breathing hoses to the heads, venting to the ground. Also, removing the transmission cover and checking the size of the venting hole. I checked runout on the crank yesterday and it is an awesome .001. I've never owned a Harley with a stock crank that was that good. Will it last? Time will tell.
Smarty
As to the external venting:
My 120 M8 with external venting to ground sumped with the 11/18 dated oil pump. After that, I installed the Feuling race series pump and plate with no other changes. That was 6500+ miles back and the bike will not sump.
I have since added PCV valves to the ends of the external breather hoses. Who knows.
I do know that the plastic breathers are indeed suspect. There is a well known builder who's name I won't mention that is supposed to be working on aftermarket replacement breathers, but no timeframe.
The stock plastic breathers are not too great. They leak. Period. You can blow
into them without much resistance. I have a new set here on the shelf and they too are the same way.
I am unfamiliar as to how the M8 vents. My 2002 came with the plastic umbrella valve blocks that would loosen up. I replaced those with the original cast two piece and later stamped version. I also vent to the ground through fittings that I installed on my AC.
Does the M8 have a umbrella valve in a plastic mount block? I would think this would be difficult with the 4 valves? Do the heads also vent into the intake the same as with the TC?
The person in the video with the 2019 CVO had posted in another forum that the dealer has told him his motor did not have the up updated seal on the pump.
Quote from: VDeuce on September 27, 2018, 12:45:53 PM
Quote from: Smarty on September 27, 2018, 07:15:20 AM
Just FYI, I also have an 18 RGS that is pumping. Drained a little more than 10 oz. our of the sump plug. I tore it apart with just over 3000 miles on it. The oil pump surfaces are ridiculously poor finishes. I'm receiving the S&S pump and campmate Monday. I got a call from a friend in Florida that I had told him I believed the problem was crankcase venting. He talked to one of the owners of a dealership and told him what I said. He said that his belief as well. He said EPA has put the screws to Harley and caused them to restrict the crankcase breathing and also the transmission breathing. His claim is that is reason for the migration of the transmission oil to the primary and the dumping issues on the engine. I've already screwed my warranty which I always do anyway. Will be looking at the breathing issues and adding external breathing hoses to the heads, venting to the ground. Also, removing the transmission cover and checking the size of the venting hole. I checked runout on the crank yesterday and it is an awesome .001. I've never owned a Harley with a stock crank that was that good. Will it last? Time will tell.
Smarty
As to the external venting:
My 120 M8 with external venting to ground sumped with the 11/18 dated oil pump. After that, I installed the Feuling race series pump and plate with no other changes. That was 6500+ miles back and the bike will not sump.
I have since added PCV valves to the ends of the external breather hoses. Who knows.
I do know that the plastic breathers are indeed suspect. There is a well known builder who's name I won't mention that is supposed to be working on aftermarket replacement breathers, but no timeframe.
The stock plastic breathers are not too great. They leak. Period. You can blow into them without much resistance. I have a new set here on the shelf and they too are the same way.
I actually spoke with that "well known engine builder" this week about the new breather setup, makes perfect sense as does a breather in the oil filler. Funny you should be mentioning the PCV valves as that came up in conversation with a buddy in the shop here yesterday.
Ok, so now we have breather issues on top of sumping and trans migration? Hell, even Briggs and Stratton was smart enough to not use plastic for a breather valve, like 50 years ago. Some use a metal reed valve. HD had issues with plastic before, yet they reverted back, it seems. I agree, controlling case pressures has a big effect on scavenging.
Ron
There have been some mention of the EPA putting a restriction on breather size, but that could be conjecture. What we do know is they are very small for the largest engine HD has ever produced.
Hey Ron, sorry to burst you bubble, but B&S had a metal breather with a plastic disc for a check valve for decades! Funny thing is they never failed.
Quote from: PoorUB on September 28, 2018, 08:24:16 AM
Hey Ron, sorry to burst you bubble, but B&S had a metal breather with a plastic disc for a check valve for decades! Funny thing is they never failed.
Sure. Plastic grade and design all play a factor. As mentioned by one, if you can blow into the engine they are defective. Size wise they don't need to be big, like even dime size per head is plenty but they must seal in both heads or the whole purpose of controlling a low case pressure is lost. This is done after a few revolutions of the crank. From there on it's a low outflow from blowby. Besides the holes in the breather bolts are the bottle neck, not the breather valves . Perfect sealing of the breather discs themselves as you know is an absolute must.
Ron
Quote from: VDeuce on September 28, 2018, 07:01:29 AM
There have been some mention of the EPA putting a restriction on breather size, but that could be conjecture. What we do know is they are very small for the largest engine HD has ever produced.
I'd say. They could mandate where the breathing enters as in where it's been for years but in order to limit the amount, this would be in the form of reducing blowby from poor ring seal or warped cyls. Something air cooled has always had a harder time with.
Ron
B&S had a spec for engine vacuum while the engine was running. I forget the number, but I remember having an oil fill plug drilled for a hose nipple and a water tube manometer to check them.
Does HD have a spec for it? :hyst:
How do the M8's vent?
They vent by way of the push rod tubes into the heads, pressurizing the rocker box, then goes through the vents into the air cleaner and TB.
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 28, 2018, 09:34:24 AM
They vent by way of the push rod tubes into the heads, pressurizing the rocker box, then goes through the vents into the air cleaner and TB.
Thanks Ohio.
Ok, I pulled the allen head plug from my case tonight and got this(//). I am hoping it was the right plug 1/4 " size allen wrench is what size it is. I have not measured it yet , but it appears to be about 14 oz. plus. Also, when I loosened the oil dipstick , more came rushing out, so not sure what that is all about. Any help here would be appreciated.
Sorry , picture did not load. Not sure how to fix that issue today.
Quote from: Helmwurst on September 30, 2018, 05:21:21 PM
Ok, I pulled the allen head plug from my case tonight and got this(//). I am hoping it was the right plug 1/4 " size allen wrench is what size it is. I have not measured it yet , but it appears to be about 14 oz. plus. Also, when I loosened the oil dipstick , more came rushing out, so not sure what that is all about. Any help here would be appreciated.
Dipstick loose - air in & oil out . Just venting
That's what I was thinking too. I went back out in the garage later and took out the allen plug again and loosened dipstick and got about 2 more ounces out of the case.
Man that's horrible. I hope they fix these things for the riders that stepped up in good faith and bought these things. I'm thinkin it won't be to long before the courts are involved.
In the last week I have read on FB that two more M8's have quit running on the road leaving them stranded and both bikes had no oil on the dip sticks when they checked them. :scratch: They were on FB asking for help as to why this happened to their bikes.
I wonder what those two guys would of found if they drained the sumps. :nix:
There is definitely an issue going on here and you know damn good and well the MoCo has to know about it.
I'm with you Reddog...if they don't get this straightened out pretty quick I can see the MoCo's lawyers getting very busy in the near future.
Mine sumped right after take off in first still leaned over taking off damn near drop it . It is now a safety issue.
My 18' Heritage sumped one time with about 100 miles on it. Loss of power but got me home. Thought it was a sump but didn't know much about it.
Next day started and ran fine. Have about 3000 miles now and has not done it since. Did the 1000 mile service at the dealer. No mention.
Have done city as well as 80mph highway since.
So, what are odds of it doing it again? If oil has sumped, one time like in my case, Has it been sucked back into the system?
Am about to do an oil change. Where is the set screw I should take out to see if there is any oil there. Or is crankhsaft sensor the place?
Drain oil then check the set screw?
I checked the amount of oil in the sump again with a heat soaked motor, EITMS kicking at lights, and did a prolonged high rpm run before checking. Less than an ounce came out. Im confident that the latest seal on the oil pump is the fix.
I have an 18 Heritage and all seems good so far. 2000 miles. Haven't read of any softails sumping till now.
Are you sure it sumped ?
Quote from: BigT on October 08, 2018, 03:52:59 AM
I checked the amount of oil in the sump again with a heat soaked motor, EITMS kicking at lights, and did a prolonged high rpm run before checking. Less than an ounce came out. Im confident that the latest seal on the oil pump is the fix.
Well that appears to be some good news. My bike is headed to the dealer today to check on this upgrade and 5000 mile service. I was going to do the service myself, but he sumping issue came up, so I decided to let them look into it. Keep us posted on your results.
Based on what I have been reading about sumping it sounds like that is what happened.
Loss of power and couldn't get the revs up. Didn't notice any high heat, but it runs hot anyway.
Got home and it was fine next day. Was ready to call the dealer to come and get it, but ran fine.
Not sure what else it would have been. Possibly something in the fuel delivery.
Been good since. So, maybe.
Who knows. Thanks
Well, got the M8 back together with the S&S oil pump and cam plate, RS-468 cam, heavy breather, and tuned with a PowerVision. Worked over the breather valves a little. It's not sumping but it's just a matter of time I feel. Every time I ride then kill the motor, it almost gives a farting sound, real juicy sounding. Next I'm trying removing the rocker box umbrella valves/vent valves(plastic at that) and vent externally with a automotive pcv valve. I feel that will give it a lot more breathing capabilities and solve the build up of pressure. I'll keep you posted. By the way, the cam and the Ful-sac 2 1/4" baffles with the entrance to the right muffler hole sawed out to 2" really made a difference in the performance. Also knocked out the cat and cleaned it up along with the crossover pipe sticking into the header.
Quote from: Helmwurst on October 08, 2018, 05:13:06 AM
Quote from: BigT on October 08, 2018, 03:52:59 AM
I checked the amount of oil in the sump again with a heat soaked motor, EITMS kicking at lights, and did a prolonged high rpm run before checking. Less than an ounce came out. Im confident that the latest seal on the oil pump is the fix.
Well that appears to be some good news. My bike is headed to the dealer today to check on this upgrade and 5000 mile service. I was going to do the service myself, but he sumping issue came up, so I decided to let them look into it. Keep us posted on your results.
Well, the service call today was very disappointing !! Not enough oil came out of the "crank position hole to warrant any changes internally to the engine on the sumping. I told them I was not going to add any more oil to it if it keeps going down on the stick!! That is BS and if a motor is sucking down 1 to 1 1/2 quarts every 4000 miles, and it is not smoking or wetting the plugs, it is going somewhere. They also said drive it another 1000 miles and bring it back in for a another look.. Oh yea, right ! Run it on the fricking dyno and check it. I guess I will buy the 30.00 fix from the parts counter and fix it myself. It is a least worth a try. Ride it long enough and it will either run out of warranty, or blow up because the oil gets sucked and does not return to the pan until you let it sit in the garage and idle for 10 mins. :wtf:
Quote from: Grayrider on October 07, 2018, 05:55:33 AM
My 18' Heritage sumped one time with about 100 miles on it. Loss of power but got me home. Thought it was a sump but didn't know much about it.
Next day started and ran fine. Have about 3000 miles now and has not done it since. Did the 1000 mile service at the dealer. No mention.
Have done city as well as 80mph highway since.
So, what are odds of it doing it again? If oil has sumped, one time like in my case, Has it been sucked back into the system?
Am about to do an oil change. Where is the set screw I should take out to see if there is any oil there. Or is crankhsaft sensor the place?
Drain oil then check the set screw?
Ride the bike, don't worry about it.
Yep if I were an M8 owner I'd keep it stock and ride the snot out of em till they blow and make em install new engines till this get made right. This should be the moco's problem not yours :angry:
Even if you are having no issues?
That's up to the M8 owner
Way back in late 2016 I bought only the second M8 road glide in Western Australia! My miles are not high but I can say it's been a pleasure to own. The smallest amount of trans oil transfer early on but that has settled. We installed a CR460, power vision with Target tune, Air cleaner and street canons. I run it on 98 and use Mobil 1 V twin in the engine.
It brakes well, corners well enough, goes good and sounds reasonable.
It whirs a bit when hot but it truly is a great bike. Incidentally I traded a 2012 sreetglide.
Quote from: No Cents on September 26, 2018, 11:32:34 AM
I've got a few friends with new M8's too.
I don't question them about anything either. I just keep a watchful eye out and absorb all the things they say that have improved over the previous models. They tell me how the ride is so much better and the new power is simply amazing.
Then I just show them a twin cam tail light after they tell me how much quicker they are. :wink:
Hoss...I want one...but I think now is not the time for me to get one with all the issues still happening. When I retired a few years ago my plan was to buy myself a new bike. I'm still waiting and I keep hoping that the MoCo will finally step up and get the bugs worked out of them. If not...my new bike money keeps on growing in Edward Jones hands. Maybe I'll be able to buy two bikes by the time they get it straightened out. :hyst:
Well after you buy one and its good then I consider one also. Going to retire in a couple of years . These Harleys have been a learning experience. If the M8 works out and is capable of staying together and makes enough power to make it a fun ride then ok
I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?
Sure sounds like it
Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?
Quote from: joe_lyons on December 07, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?
The ID of the flywheel return suction nipple where it plugs into the case is one thing they made smaller.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: joe_lyons on December 07, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?
The ID of the flywheel return suction nipple where it plugs into the case is one thing they made smaller.
That might be a good thing.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on December 08, 2018, 06:52:18 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 04:59:41 PM
Quote from: joe_lyons on December 07, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
Does anyone know what was changed with the oil pumps from 17-19 other than the back plate?
The ID of the flywheel return suction nipple where it plugs into the case is one thing they made smaller.
That might be a good thing.
Ron
It is the right idea just the wrong place to do it, but it sure won't hurt anything.
I guess I don't see where that would help because the passage going down toward the sump plug is smaller but who knows. Maybe to strengthen the nipple itself. Gonna try an updated back plate on a 2017 oil pump to see if it helps with sumping. Got 10oz out of the sump on a current one I'm working on.
I have 2 questions:
1. Why is it that not every M8 is sumping if its a manufacturing defect? just the differences in tolerances or how each engine is assembled? as bad as this seems to be you'd think every single one would do it
2. For checking for the sumping problem does it have to be done immediately after a ride or a hard ride? in other words, if I ride it hard down the interstate but then take city streets back to my garage will I see the same results as I would if I had pulled off the side of the interstate and pulled the sensor?
Quote from: joe_lyons on December 08, 2018, 09:26:40 AM
I guess I don't see where that would help because the passage going down toward the sump plug is smaller but who knows. Maybe to strengthen the nipple itself. Gonna try an updated back plate on a 2017 oil pump to see if it helps with sumping. Got 10oz out of the sump on a current one I'm working on.
They are most likely trying to regulate the return galley oil so the return gears do not loose prime because of the pressure pulses from the pistons. Think torque cones in the top of the exhaust pipe.
Quote from: RoadGlideRob on December 09, 2018, 08:59:08 AM
I have 2 questions:
1. Why is it that not every M8 is sumping if its a manufacturing defect? just the differences in tolerances or how each engine is assembled? as bad as this seems to be you'd think every single one would do it
2. For checking for the sumping problem does it have to be done immediately after a ride or a hard ride? in other words, if I ride it hard down the interstate but then take city streets back to my garage will I see the same results as I would if I had pulled off the side of the interstate and pulled the sensor?
Mine sumped just off idle leaving a gas station no pattern to me they just seam to be all over the place . Mine was basically stock and sumped 300+ miles after the 5000 mile service
Had not looked at this topic in a few weeks. Just read this morning that Fueling recommends the following steps:
(Yes,I copies these notes from their website on their 7096 pump/plate kit.)
Note: The M-Eight oil pick up port is on the right side of the engine. Letting the bike idle or warm up on the kickstand will naturally fill the engine case and skew the oil level in the tank.
We recommend the following steps to achieve proper oil level:
1. Check cold oil level.
2. Ride the bike until operating temperature is reached.
3. Shut the bike off while still in the upright position. (This insures an accurate reading)
4. Once the bike is on the kickstand check oil level.
5. Add or remove oil as needed.
Quote from: Billy on November 01, 2018, 03:58:50 AM
I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?
After installing the upgrade cover and before installing the cam drive sprocket on the pinion shaft, I turned the engine by the rear wheel and it would blow an extraordinary amount of air out the end of the pinion I haven't experienced yet, (first experience with M8, but 100's of Evo's & TC's) I'm assuming once the sprocket is bolted in place sealing this hole, the pressure from the piston downstroke will force sump oil through scavenge port to the pump eliminating excess.
Quote from: Reddog74usa on October 17, 2018, 07:34:44 AM
Yep if I were an M8 owner I'd keep it stock and ride the snot out of em till they blow and make em install new engines till this get made right. This should be the moco's problem not yours :angry:
Uh... I would say that the Moco doesn't own up to much of anything these days... maybe if you own 3 bikes and replace them every year...
Quote from: Billy on December 10, 2018, 07:38:11 AM
Quote from: Billy on November 01, 2018, 03:58:50 AM
I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?
After installing the upgrade cover and before installing the cam drive sprocket on the pinion shaft, I turned the engine by the rear wheel and it would blow an extraordinary amount of air out the end of the pinion I haven't experienced yet, (first experience with M8, but 100's of Evo's & TC's) I'm assuming once the sprocket is bolted in place sealing this hole, the pressure from the piston downstroke will force sump oil through scavenge port to the pump eliminating excess.
My findings as well. Spun motor over with stock 17 setup and then installed the updated back plate and the force needed to turn the motor over was definitely increased. Must be using the crankcase positive pressure to force oil into the sump galley.
Quote from: joe_lyons on December 11, 2018, 08:13:43 AM
Quote from: Billy on December 10, 2018, 07:38:11 AM
Quote from: Billy on November 01, 2018, 03:58:50 AM
I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?
After installing the upgrade cover and before installing the cam drive sprocket on the pinion shaft, I turned the engine by the rear wheel and it would blow an extraordinary amount of air out the end of the pinion I haven't experienced yet, (first experience with M8, but 100's of Evo's & TC's) I'm assuming once the sprocket is bolted in place sealing this hole, the pressure from the piston downstroke will force sump oil through scavenge port to the pump eliminating excess.
My findings as well. Spun motor over with stock 17 setup and then installed the updated back plate and the force needed to turn the motor over was definitely increased. Must be using the crankcase positive pressure to force oil into the sump galley.
Joe. You see the problem here? It's suppose to vent this air out into the cam chest then up the pushrod tubes. No way in hell there should be resistance from the crank cavity compressing the air to the point it can be felt with turning the engine over, especially with the cam cover off.
Starting to sound like the venting system is the root cause of sumping and how these pressures effect the inlet side of the pump. Then again wtf do I know but the cam and crank area should be a shared chamber for air exchanging and correct case breathing? :teeth:
Ron
Quote from: Billy on November 01, 2018, 03:58:50 AM
I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?
I know of a M8 that was purchased a few months back in mid to late summer. It sumped with less than 4K miles on it. It had to be trailered back to the dealership. The owner witnessed 20 ounces of oil that came out of the sump. Upon further inspection it had this latest plate with the oil seal installed in it from the factory. I personally don't think they are on target yet for the needed fix.
I'm still a firm believer that the engine cases and the cam chest are not venting properly...but what the hell do I know. :slap: I will say that this is the only thing stopping me from buying one.
added later:
their "fix" was to bolt it all back together and for him to take the bike back and ride it until it did it again...wtf :banghead:
I do believe he is getting a lawyer involved.
Quote from: No Cents on December 11, 2018, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: Billy on November 01, 2018, 03:58:50 AM
I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?
I know of a M8 that was purchased a few months back in mid to late summer. It sumped with less than 4K miles on it. It had to be trailered back to the dealership. The owner witnessed 20 ounces of oil that came out of the sump. Upon further inspection it had this latest plate with the oil seal installed in it from the factory. I personally don't think they are on target yet for the needed fix.
I'm still a firm believer that the engine cases and the cam chest are not venting properly...but what the hell do I know. :slap: I will say that this is the only thing stopping me from buying one.
added later:
their "fix" was to bolt it all back together and for him to take the bike back and ride it until it did it again...wtf :banghead:
I do believe he is getting a lawyer involved.
You only need to vent what blows by the rings. Most of the time running in the mid rpms a harley should be zero pressure to a slight vacuum in the cases.
Eric...do you think that is happening with the M8?
Something has to be keeping the oil down in the sump. Could it be a bad case design? Or maybe something else?
Quote from: No Cents on December 11, 2018, 11:18:51 AM
Eric...do you think that is happening with the M8?
Something has to be keeping the oil down in the sump. Could it be a bad case design? Or maybe something else?
I think it has to do with both ring seal and case design. The flywheel side of the pump has always been touchy on a Harley, if you read your history they have battled flywheel sumping every time they changed case or oil pump design starting with the first twin cylinder they made.
:agree:
you would think by now the MoCo would have figured this out. I'm not willing to be a beta tester for them.
With all these big bore kits coming to the market...I wonder how long it will be before the guys that put them on voiding their warranty will be happy. This engine is in it's infant stages and I hope they get a handle on this problem sooner than later. The potential of the M8 is without question...the longevity is what I question. No engine will last if it is sumping like what is happening.
One part I'm not grasping is how can it not sump for a few thousand miles...then start sumping...or does it take that long for the oil to slowly build up over time in the cases to where it is finally noticeable to the owner. :nix:
Quote from: No Cents on December 11, 2018, 10:42:34 AM
Quote from: Billy on November 01, 2018, 03:58:50 AM
I have an '18 Fat Bob Softail 114 with the stage 4 117 kit on it in my shop, drained the sump and 16 oz came out. I guess this one is a candidate for the pump cover with the seal?
I know of a M8 that was purchased a few months back in mid to late summer. It sumped with less than 4K miles on it. It had to be trailered back to the dealership. The owner witnessed 20 ounces of oil that came out of the sump. Upon further inspection it had this latest plate with the oil seal installed in it from the factory. I personally don't think they are on target yet for the needed fix.
I'm still a firm believer that the engine cases and the cam chest are not venting properly...but what the hell do I know. :slap: I will say that this is the only thing stopping me from buying one.
added later:
their "fix" was to bolt it all back together and for him to take the bike back and ride it until it did it again...wtf :banghead:
I do believe he is getting a lawyer involved.
I'll know in a few weeks if this one is still sumping, initial road test felt real strong, broke loose easily with a second gear roll on. The owner has it back now and is planning on a dyno tune at Wide Open Cycle, I believe it just has the SE canned load in it now.
Billy...the funny thing about my friends M8 was when he called the dealership and told them he was trailering it back in, they told him that they more than likely knew what the problem was...and the MoCo had came up with the needed fix. Much to their surprise it already had the new plate with the seal in it when they pulled it apart.
He said the bike ran excellent all the way up to the point when it sumped. It went from being the best running Harley he had ever owned...to his worst. His words...not mine.
Quote from: No Cents on December 11, 2018, 12:16:12 PM
Billy...the funny thing about my friends M8 was when he called the dealership and told them he was trailering it back in, they told him that they more than likely knew what the problem was...and the MoCo had came up with the needed fix. Much to their surprise it already had the new plate with the seal in it when they pulled it apart.
He said the bike ran excellent all the way up to the point when it sumped. It went from being the best running Harley he had ever owned...to his worst. His words...not mine.
The bike was new mid-late summer and had the seal? As far as I'm aware of, the seal was not used in production until at least October '18. Was this a prototype?
I don't know. I'm just passing on the info of what he told me. I know he said the dealership was quick to get a MoCo engineers involved with it.
I do know for a fact that the bike is completely stock and there had not been a bolt turned on it until it sumped...and then it was done by the dealership. The guy doesn't turn wrenches...all his work is done by the dealership on his bikes.
Wouldn't a windage baffle or tray and a few ounces of crankcase capacity, specifically at the bottom of the crankcase solve the problem? Although Harley would have a fairly major casting modification.
I keep thinking of guys running V8's with a dry dump setup. I remember guys fitting crank "scrapers" to catch the excess oil.
It is easier than that, all they need to do is look at 1999 Twin cam and copy it. Basically undo what ever they did to "make the M8 better". If this sounds familiar it is because the oil transfer problem in the primary/tran has the same cure.
There was a time that it was the first rule of engineering;
If you don't understand how it works, how are you going to make it better?
Today on FB is saw a 150 inch kit an it looked very impressive although I would prefer a little less stroke where it would be able to rpm . At any rate I have giving some thought to running the total seal rings next time as that is suppose to really help with ring seal and I was not till now the na motor benefits from pulling on the ports harder with those rings . If it is a combination of case design and ring seal , perhaps the total seal rings might help . For sure in not in the least interested in buying one till I know there fixed .
Quote from: 1workinman on December 11, 2018, 04:26:09 PM
Today on FB is saw a 150 inch kit an it looked very impressive although I would prefer a little less stroke where it would be able to rpm . At any rate I have giving some thought to running the total seal rings next time as that is suppose to really help with ring seal and I was not till now the na motor benefits from pulling on the ports harder with those rings . If it is a combination of case design and ring seal , perhaps the total seal rings might help . For sure in not in the least interested in buying one till I know there fixed .
They won't seal a warped cylinder, which is why so many have more blowby then desired.
Ron
If total seal, or gapless rings are so great, how come they are not used by the factory? :idunno:
Quote from: PoorUB on December 11, 2018, 05:49:24 PM
If total seal, or gapless rings are so great, how come they are not used by the factory? :idunno:
Simple
They require very good cylinder bores
and $$$$$$$
I realize the 2019s with a 114 are still relatively new, but i can't seem to find much discussion about them sumping?
I have an 18 Heritage 114 and so far no problems. I have only read of 2 softails sumping and one of those wasn't sure that was the problem. I just got mine in September of this year and only have 4,000 miles but the oil is always full when I check it and I have never had any of the symptoms, so I am just going to ride and enjoy.
Quote from: sandrooney on December 13, 2018, 03:28:48 AM
I have an 18 Heritage 114 and so far no problems. I have only read of 2 softails sumping and one of those wasn't sure that was the problem. I just got mine in September of this year and only have 4,000 miles but the oil is always full when I check it and I have never had any of the symptoms, so I am just going to ride and enjoy.
I would hope this is what every M8 owner wishes for. Just buy it, and ride it, with confidence that it will run great without any major issues happening. The M8 engine design has been noted that they could possibly sump, and the tranny could also transfer fluid over into the primary. These aren't little issues in my mind...but big ones that are going to take some time for them to get them right. Do I think the MoCo is working on them...hell yes...but they are also watching what is going on with guys in after market world to see what they have come up with for a fix.
Historically if you look back at the new engines that have been released by the MoCo over the decades...most of them had their issues when they were newly released, and it took some time for them to get a handle on the problems. Sometimes people not even associated with the MoCo came up with the needed fix...and then they would copy the fix.
There is not doubt in my mind that once they have the bugs completely worked out on the M8 it will go down in the history books as being the best engine they ever produced. The potential of this M8 is impressive...and I think over time we will be amazed at the results we see.
I don't think any softails have the transfer problem being they are cable operated.
Udating my findings with installing the updated oil pump backing plate on a 2017 pump resulted with 4oz less oil coming out of the sump plug. Before little over 10oz and after a little over 6oz. Still not where I would like to see it but better than before for sure.
Quote from: joe_lyons on December 18, 2018, 12:11:12 PM
Udating my findings with installing the updated oil pump backing plate on a 2017 pump resulted with 4oz less oil coming out of the sump plug. Before little over 10oz and after a little over 6oz. Still not where I would like to see it but better than before for sure.
Are you cutting the pushrods for a "quick" install or working from the top down?
Quote from: No Cents on September 24, 2018, 07:14:03 PM
thanks for the info on the sump plug. :up:
I wasn't aware that the crank position sensor is on the bottom of the M8 cases, and not higher up on the case like a twin cam. I'm learning. :SM:
I haven't looked under a M-8 at the C-Senser as of yet , two damn hard getting up.Can it be damaged by a rock on gravel roads.? Any type of shield around it ? Thanks
Quote from: Helmwurst on December 22, 2018, 06:06:35 AM
Quote from: joe_lyons on December 18, 2018, 12:11:12 PM
Udating my findings with installing the updated oil pump backing plate on a 2017 pump resulted with 4oz less oil coming out of the sump plug. Before little over 10oz and after a little over 6oz. Still not where I would like to see it but better than before for sure.
Are you cutting the pushrods for a "quick" install or working from the top down?
Adj. Pushrods.
Quote from: No Cents on December 11, 2018, 12:16:12 PM
Billy...the funny thing about my friends M8 was when he called the dealership and told them he was trailering it back in, they told him that they more than likely knew what the problem was...and the MoCo had came up with the needed fix. Much to their surprise it already had the new plate with the seal in it when they pulled it apart.
He said the bike ran excellent all the way up to the point when it sumped. It went from being the best running Harley he had ever owned...to his worst. His words...not mine.
Yep, that was my exact experience with my 2017 CVO Limited. Best damn Harley I owned.... till it wasn't! I had 4 engines all replaced under warranty. 3 engines sumped all with Stage IV kits installed by dealer. Original factory engine sumped at 5000miles, #2 sumped at 800 miles. #3 sumped at 1700 miles and I finally got rid of it with #4.
Engine ran fantastic until it sumped but eventually I learned what it takes to make it sump. Just takes about 60 to 90 mins of riding to get the engine and all accessories fully heat soaked. Combine about 60 miles of highway riding at 70-80mph followed by 20-30 miles of backroad twisties run somewhat assertively (shifting around 4-5000rpms). If an M8 engine is susceptible to sumping, I can almost guarantee this little test will make it sump. You'll know it sumped by the power loss but its also very easy to check if its sumping.
Follow the procedure straight from the owner's manual for measuring the oil in the engine before you go for a ride. Than take the test ride described above. When you finish the ride, immediately check the oil level again following the steps precisely from the owner's manual. If your oil level is exactly where it was when you left, you're engine isn't sumping and probably will never sump.
If the dipstick is just slightly down, your engine has a mild case of sumping. Tell the dealer.
If the dipstick shows you down a qt low after this test ride, you have a seriously sumping engine. (The missing oil isn't lost, its just all collected in the crankcase.) It needs to be addressed before you experience engine failure when you least expect it.
Do yourself a favor and take pictures of the dipstick BEFORE and AFTER the ride described above to show your dealer. Remember to tell the dealer you measured the oil exactly the way its described in the owner's manual. Good luck.
So, now I have a 2019 CVO Road Glide in the shop, pulled the CKP sensor and drained 11oz, then pulled the sump plug and got another 5oz, bike was built 8/18 and does not have the upgraded oil pump cover. I guess I'll install the cover upgrade and see how it plays with the FuelMoto 128 kit going on it. :pop:
I trust that you will get 'em going! Did the owner notice any heat or power loss? Please let us know how it turns out.
Just saying,
R Meyer
I know a Technician who has had one on his lift for 18 months on and off. Everytime it comes in, Engineering has them do something different. He has literally begged them to ship a replacement Motor - No go. They say they're going to get it figured out. If I were the Owner ................ Well, I'd be on the News. And, not ion a good way.
Sounds like the motor company is using the dealers labor to test their latest idea.
Ive done over 10 last summer....at first they were replacing complete short blocks....now only parts that show damage are replaced .....last time I saw things like this with a Company was just before it Tanked and shut down ......they will use ANY excuse they can find to not replace a part......or Void a warranty all together ....sure not the old MOCO for sure.....But they do have a lot of expenses ...like R&D on Electric Bikes :wink:
HV Of those 10 were any of them softail?
My 19 RGS sumped 80oz after several 120+ mph bursts on the highway.
Bike was tuned totally stock, did not have updated oil pump with seal.
Since then I have done a stage 2 with S&S oil kit, now has 16oz in sump from plug consistently when ever I check it, which is very often.
I'm new to these engines so this may be a dumb question. I am considering doing a cam upgrade with the S&S pump/plate. If I buy this new oil pump cover that is allegedly the fix, can I use it with the S&S oil pump/plate?? Or will it only work on stock stuff??
The revised rear cover only fits the MoCo pump.
But if you spring for the S&S pump, you don't need it, since that pump has two scavenging stages. One for each area of the case. And theoretically, should be immune to the issue affecting the oem pumps.
Thanks HV.
Quote from: Ccdan on January 25, 2019, 10:45:28 AM
My 19 RGS sumped 80oz after several 120+ mph bursts on the highway.
Bike was tuned totally stock, did not have updated oil pump with seal.
Since then I have done a stage 2 with S&S oil kit, now has 16oz in sump from plug consistently when ever I check it, which is very often.
Dump the S&S pump and plate and install the stock setup with the new pump cover with the oil seal.
Quote from: HV on January 25, 2019, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: sandrooney on January 25, 2019, 08:45:29 AM
HV Of those 10 were any of them softail?
NONE :teeth:
Gee, surely there's something we can take away from this...
What is different between the Softail II and Tourer motor installations?
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
I have an 18 built in I believe March of 18. What pump would be in it? Should I just do the new cover and save the cash on the S&S pump/plate OR go ahead and go with the S&S pump/plate??
My bike has only 1700 miles on it. If it has sumped I haven't known or known how to check.
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?
My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.
I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.
We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 25, 2019, 08:31:16 PM
Quote from: HV on January 25, 2019, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: sandrooney on January 25, 2019, 08:45:29 AM
HV Of those 10 were any of them softail?
NONE :teeth:
Gee, surely there's something we can take away from this...
What is different between the Softail II and Tourer motor installations?
Biggest Diff I see is there are very few New Softails out there......perhaps 1% of our sales.......If no one is riding them they are not going to Fail... :SM:
Couple months ago as I was getting ready to do my exhaust and cam I checked my oil in the crankcase. I drained it at the cp sensor and got 6 1/2 oz out of it. Didn't think that was too bad but still a little more than what I thought should be there. When I installed my cam I also installed the latest version oil pump and the new back plate with the rubber seal. I checked again yesterday but drained at the sump plug instead of the cp sensor (I know, not apples to apples) because looking under the bike the plug is actually a little lower than the sensor. I got 7 1/2 oz out. Since I'm about to do a 124 bolt on kit I'm not real confident the new seal is the answer so I'll be getting the Feuling oil pump and camplate just for peace of mind.
I also drain from the sump plug.
There is 5oz more from there after draining from the CPS.
The Fueling race pump and plate kit is the way I will probably go as well.
Is the Feuling pump a 2 or 3 cavity pump?
Quote from: Billy on January 26, 2019, 09:56:23 AM
Is the Feuling pump a 2 or 3 cavity pump?
It's a 2 stage pump.
Quote from: Durwood on January 26, 2019, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?
My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.
I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.
We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.
Thanks again for the quick reply, seems unusual that it would go that long before it decided to sump, doesn't inspire confidence.
Quote from: BigT on September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM...I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix
Could someone brighter than me please explain how SEALING OFF the location of the oil pooling (crankcase) from the point where the scavenge port picks up the sumped oil (camchest floor) can INCREASE the amount of oil scavenged?
At its simplest, this issue is the scavenge pump failing to evacuate the crankcase residual oil. Cutting off the oil flow to the scavenge side of the pump seems counter-intuitive.
I have some ideas that I want to check when I get my new M8 this week. My basic feeling is that the pressure differential between the oil tank void and the camchest void becomes greater than the scavenge pumps pressure generating capability, either that or there's some type of cavitation in the scavenge side of the pump.
I'm thinking the former. Old B motor Twinkies used a similar system for 10+ years with no issues. Can anyone shoot this theory down?
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 26, 2019, 02:44:08 PM
Quote from: BigT on September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM...I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix
Could someone brighter than me please explain how SEALING OFF the location of the oil pooling (crankcase) from the point where the scavenge port picks up the sumped oil (camchest floor) can INCREASE the amount of oil scavenged?
At its simplest, this issue is the scavenge pump failing to evacuate the crankcase residual oil. Cutting off the oil flow to the scavenge side of the pump seems counter-intuitive.
It doesn't cut off flow to the scavenge side- it seals the pinion bearing
I have some ideas that I want to check when I get my new M8 this week. My basic feeling is that the pressure differential between the oil tank void and the camchest void becomes greater than the scavenge pumps pressure generating capability, either that or there's some type of cavitation in the scavenge side of the pump.
I'm thinking the former. Old B motor Twinkies used a similar system for 10+ years with no issues. Can anyone shoot this theory down?
The seal is on the back side of the pump- it effectively reduces air movement into the cam cavity through the pinion bearing, and applies that pressure to the oil sitting in the bottom of the flywheel cavity, pushing it into the scavenge side of the oil pump, reducing cavitation.
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 27, 2019, 07:04:43 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 26, 2019, 02:44:08 PM
Quote from: BigT on September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM...I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix
Could someone brighter than me please explain how SEALING OFF the location of the oil pooling (crankcase) from the point where the scavenge port picks up the sumped oil (camchest floor) can INCREASE the amount of oil scavenged?
At its simplest, this issue is the scavenge pump failing to evacuate the crankcase residual oil. Cutting off the oil flow to the scavenge side of the pump seems counter-intuitive.
It doesn't cut off flow to the scavenge side- it seals the pinion bearing
I have some ideas that I want to check when I get my new M8 this week. My basic feeling is that the pressure differential between the oil tank void and the camchest void becomes greater than the scavenge pumps pressure generating capability, either that or there's some type of cavitation in the scavenge side of the pump.
I'm thinking the former. Old B motor Twinkies used a similar system for 10+ years with no issues. Can anyone shoot this theory down?
The seal is on the back side of the pump- it effectively reduces air movement into the cam cavity through the pinion bearing, and applies that pressure to the oil sitting in the bottom of the flywheel cavity, pushing it into the scavenge side of the oil pump, reducing cavitation.
The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of bandaid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 09:56:52 AM
The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of bandaid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron
I also don't understand how keeping the oil trapped in the crankcase cures sumping. I would really like to hear that explanation.
Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 09:56:52 AM
The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of band-aid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron
Ron, what do you think of my thought that the tank might be pressurising to the point where the scavenging side of the pump doesn't have the pressure capability to pump against the tank pressure?
If the problem was as simple as the pump design, they'd all do it. The issue is so random. :scratch:
Can anyone tell me: we're B motor Twin Cams' oil tanks vented?
Oil bag vents back to the case.
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 27, 2019, 12:06:53 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 09:56:52 AM
The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of band-aid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron
Ron, what do you think of my thought that the tank might be pressurising to the point where the scavenging side of the pump doesn't have the pressure capability to pump against the tank pressure?
If the problem was as simple as the pump design, they'd all do it. The issue is so random. :scratch:
Can anyone tell me: we're B motor Twin Cams' oil tanks vented?
Can't see that much pressure. As a pump, like any oil pump it's capable of some serious pressure if it's allowed to build up and in feed for engine. The tank, case and cam chest all share a common vent point which is the breather circuit. As Brian mentioned, the B motor like the TC version vents from top of tank to case and again the common exit point being the head breathers.
Basically the inlet and outlet sides of the pump are under the same conditions. It will pump if both are under pressure or under vacumm since there is no differential between inlet and outlet sides. At least in the real world. I've always wondered about the interaction between the feed and scavenge side as one possible cause, as in the feed side inducing oil where it shouldn't or possibly screwing the prime on the scavenge rotor. I really don't know "Potty mouth" about it but I do know in this day and age with highly qualified people with pump designs, this nonsense should have been nipped in the bud long ago.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 01:01:45 PM
Can't see that much pressure. As a pump, like any oil pump it's capable of some serious pressure if it's allowed to build up and in feed for engine. The tank, case and cam chest all share a common vent point which is the breather circuit. As Brian mentioned, the B motor like the TC version vents from top of tank to case and again the common exit point being the head breathers.
Basically the inlet and outlet sides of the pump are under the same conditions. It will pump if both are under pressure or under vacuum since there is no differential between inlet and outlet sides. At least in the real world. I've always wondered about the interaction between the feed and scavenge side as one possible cause, as in the feed side inducing oil where it shouldn't or possibly screwing the prime on the scavenge rotor. I really don't know "Potty mouth" about it but I do know in this day and age with highly qualified people with pump designs, this nonsense should have been nipped in the bud long ago.
Ron
Thanks Ron. Being new to HDs and my first M8 I'm darn keen to see it doesn't blow up. There's 37,500 reasons for that, all dollars. :crook:
It seems like S&S are on the right track with their separate scavenge systems for crank and cambox, I like that idea. If the issue is the camchest running dry and then cavitating the scavenge pump, the S&S should be the fix.
Totally agreed re: your feelings, in this age of engineering you have to wonder about a) the ability of their design engineers, and b) their testing program. This has gone on for many years from what I can gather, not good enough when they're asking $38,000 for a FLHX here.
Thanks for your input, always much appreciated. :up:
Wouldn't going from a dry sump design to and oil pan wet sump design eliminate the problem?
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 27, 2019, 07:04:43 AM
The seal is on the back side of the pump- it effectively reduces air movement into the cam cavity through the pinion bearing, and applies that pressure to the oil sitting in the bottom of the flywheel cavity, pushing it into the scavenge side of the oil pump, reducing cavitation.
So, effectively trying to force-prime the in-bye (crankcase) side of the scavenge pump, which is bridge-ported to the in-bye side (camchest). The logic of this suggests that oil will cross-flow and pool in the camchest keeping the bridge-ported in-bye side of the pump under oil.
Seems like a decent attempt, as is S&S's separation concept.
Quote from: Durwood on January 26, 2019, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?
My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.
I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.
We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.
Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped? Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.
Chris
Quote from: cmashark on February 18, 2019, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 26, 2019, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?
My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.
I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.
We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.
Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped? Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.
Chris
I haven't had an opportunity to mess with it yet. It won't be too long.
Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS, I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap. It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out. The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this? Contrary to some of what I’ve read from others, I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn’t 10 miles from my home.
I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124. I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate. With just about 500 miles on the build, when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot.
Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.
I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution.
Quote from: Vision on March 18, 2019, 09:57:32 AM
Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS, I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap. It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out. The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this? Contrary to some of what I've read from others, I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn't 10 miles from my home.
I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124. I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate. With just about 500 miles on the build, when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot.
Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.
I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution.
That right there points to the head vents not working. There should be 0 pressure build up.
Ron
Great Point! Given that, do you support the concept of using Hayden valves in conjunction with an external Breather setup to only allow air to vent out?
Or does the Hayden valve present a risk and not really worth it?
Quote from: rbabos on March 18, 2019, 10:07:07 AM
Quote from: Vision on March 18, 2019, 09:57:32 AM
Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS, I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap. It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out. The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this? Contrary to some of what I've read from others, I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn't 10 miles from my home.
I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124. I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate. With just about 500 miles on the build, when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot.
Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.
I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution.
That right there points to the head vents not working. There should be 0 pressure build up.
Ron
Do the M8's have the same style breather umbrella that the TC have? If so, they were probably installed backwards.
Quote from: Nastytls on March 18, 2019, 11:15:56 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 18, 2019, 10:07:07 AM
Quote from: Vision on March 18, 2019, 09:57:32 AM
Just adding to the conversation, prior to my Stage 4 114 setup sumping on my 2018 RGS, I started noticing a huge buildup of pressure on my oil dipstick cap. It was difficult to unscrew and would literally hiss with pressure releasing as I twisted it out. The day it sumped, it was so much pressure that I had to let the bike cool before I could get the cap off. Has anyone else noticed this? Contrary to some of what I've read from others, I by no means ran my bike hard the day it sumped. Wasn't 10 miles from my home.
I took the opportunity to upgrade while Harley was putting the engine back together and go 124. I also opted against the new pump and seal and went for the Feuling race pump and cam plate. With just about 500 miles on the build, when hot, now the cap comes off like butter with no hissing whatsoever and oil level has been consistent when hot.
Not a mechanic, but imagining how that extreme pressure could create an environment where oil takes the path of less resistance and possibly impacts the scavenging of oil into a compartment where the pressure is so high.
I definitely plan on installing one of the vent solutions for the oil tank, just as a precaution.
That right there points to the head vents not working. There should be 0 pressure build up.
Ron
Do the M8's have the same style breather umbrella that the TC have? If so, they were probably installed backwards.
I've wondered that as well but that can be checked without disassembly.
Ron
Quote from: Vision on March 18, 2019, 10:57:22 AM
Great Point! Given that, do you support the concept of using Hayden valves in conjunction with an external Breather setup to only allow air to vent out?
Or does the Hayden valve present a risk and not really worth it?
If the head breather are either not working or require an abnormal amount of force to open , then any one way valve would be a bonus.
Ron
They are different from what aI understand. With the m8 style Breathers, I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.
Quote from: Vision on March 18, 2019, 11:36:34 AM
They are different from what aI understand. With the m8 style Breathers, I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.
Thanks Ron!
Quote from: Vision on March 18, 2019, 11:36:34 AM
They are different from what aI understand. With the m8 style Breathers, I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.
they are totally different from a TC, there is a front one and a rear one,
I've not seen either one so I've no idea as to what's inside
but at 12 skins each there cant be much
the rear one
https://i.imgur.com/6uG1tr0.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/fmvJBxQ.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/edvNGMc.png(https://i.imgur.com/ZdXL0Ti.png)
Quote from: FSG on March 18, 2019, 12:17:59 PM
Quote from: Vision on March 18, 2019, 11:36:34 AM
They are different from what aI understand. With the m8 style Breathers, I'm not sure they could be installed backwards.
they are totally different from a TC, there is a front one and a rear one,
I've not seen either one so I've no idea as to what's inside
the rear one
https://i.imgur.com/6uG1tr0.png
https://i.imgur.com/fmvJBxQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/edvNGMc.png
(https://i.imgur.com/ZdXL0Ti.png)
Yup.
You would need a hammer to open one up.
Might see if I can get one just to open it up
I've got one in my hand right now, it's a plastic sealed unit & it appears to be working as designed, lets air out & seals when trying to blow back into it. One advantage I see to it is the intake for the unit is on the very top about 1.5" above the base of the head making it harder for oil to get into it. I still think ring seal has something to do with this whole issue.
Quote from: DTTJGlide on March 18, 2019, 09:35:17 PM
I've got one in my hand right now, it's a plastic sealed unit & it appears to be working as designed, lets air out & seals when trying to blow back into it. One advantage I see to it is the intake for the unit is on the very top about 1.5" above the base of the head making it harder for oil to get into it. I still think ring seal has something to do with this whole issue.
The one you have works, that's good but earlier a chap stated he was shown one that didn't seal properly, hit and miss aye? Shouldn't be surprised I guess.
That chap may have been me. Lol. Last summer I watched as a builder was able to get air going in both directions through the M8 Crank vents. He actually had a split vent exposing the inside and it the internals seemed pretty flimsy. The umbrella valve is literally the size of a small child’s finger nail. It’s nothing that could withstand any real pressure. There is a small sponge inside to catch some of the moisture/froth. I remember him teeing off the breather valves and running that into an air pressure guage, which clearly showed air going in both directions with the motor on. That’s the first time I saw an external Breather with a Hayden valve at work. When he introduced the Hayden Valve after the Tee, and checked the air pressure out of the Hayden, the needle on the air gague went in one direction and stayed there showing that there was no more fluctuation. He does suggest to swap out the umbella valve in the Hayden with the one from Harley for the EVO Crank vent due to its added durability.
For the stock motors, they’re probably fine for a while, but the Larger builds may make quick work of the stock vents.
Quote from: Vision on March 19, 2019, 07:57:12 AM
That chap may have been me. Lol. Last summer I watched as a builder was able to get air going in both directions through the M8 Crank vents. He actually had a split vent exposing the inside and it the internals seemed pretty flimsy. The umbrella valve is literally the size of a small child's finger nail. It's nothing that could withstand any real pressure. There is a small sponge inside to catch some of the moisture/froth. I remember him teeing off the breather valves and running that into an air pressure guage, which clearly showed air going in both directions with the motor on. That's the first time I saw an external Breather with a Hayden valve at work. When he introduced the Hayden Valve after the Tee, and checked the air pressure out of the Hayden, the needle on the air gague went in one direction and stayed there showing that there was no more fluctuation. He does suggest to swap out the umbella valve in the Hayden with the one from Harley for the EVO Crank vent due to its added durability.
For the stock motors, they're probably fine for a while, but the Larger builds may make quick work of the stock vents.
This poor breather stuff is part of the sumping issues we read about as far as I can tell. They need to work as intended or they are garbage. No half way around it.
Ron
Quote from: Durwood on February 19, 2019, 05:31:16 AM
Quote from: cmashark on February 18, 2019, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 26, 2019, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?
My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.
I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.
We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.
Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped? Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.
Chris
I haven't had an opportunity to mess with it yet. It won't be too long.
Daren, just wondering if you'd had any more sumping issues since installing the new oil pump cover with the seal and if you measured any compression changes since the installing the big bore. What cylinders did you use?
Chris
On these breather vents, I have my rocker covers off now and took one of the breathers out. Anyone know how to test or can explain how they are supposed to work? I am assuming the flow freely in one direction and should hold off in the other? How much pressure/vacuum?
Quote from: cmashark on March 31, 2019, 10:23:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 19, 2019, 05:31:16 AM
Quote from: cmashark on February 18, 2019, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 26, 2019, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?
My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.
I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.
We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.
Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped? Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.
Chris
I haven't had an opportunity to mess with it yet. It won't be too long.
Daren, just wondering if you'd had any more sumping issues since installing the new oil pump cover with the seal and if you measured any compression changes since the installing the big bore. What cylinders did you use?
Chris
No sumping yet after several max power runs on the dyno. S&S cylinders. My compression has been all over the place with the different cams I've ran in it as a 107 and 124.
Quote from: Nastytls on September 24, 2018, 04:37:00 PM
Great to hear.
a seal is a fix huh? how long a fix. one ride tells nothing. not that it couldn't but got to wonder
For what it's worth, my first generation Arlen Ness M-8 Big Sucker air cleaner spit oil all over the rear headpipe, right saddlebag...and my right leg. I was sent the second generation unit that fixed the spew, but pressured up the cases because the dovetail grooves machined then powder coated on the black backing plate were too small and pinched the rubber nozzels closed when you assembled it. I took it all apart, filed off the powder coating in the nozzel channels and all is well again...and no oil mist on the right side of the bike.
This thread seems to be a bit dormant and I was wondering if a fix for the sumping has been found. Are the 19's still having this issue or do we have a fix???
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs? I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Well after that reply I'm going to surmise that a fix has not been found, just band-aids. Wonder if it's some kind of inherent flaw in the casting of the cases??? :nix: All I know is there's a lot of riders being left holding the bag. Stopped by my local dealer yesterday and talked to a guy that had his bike back at the dealer for the 5th time with an 18 M8. I don't know how their going to stay afloat treating customers like this. I feel badly for those caught up in this and hope this gets resolved very soon.
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs? I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
That is not acceptable. For folks with warranty in tact, 7 ounces would be cause for Harley to break down your engine looking for damage. I have a Feuling race setup on my 124 M8 RGS with a little over a 1200 mile post stage 4 sumping event and Feuling and 124 install and the bike is running strong. I will have the CPS pulled in the first week of June when I have my 5000 mile service done. Will let you know what comes out.
I tapped out!!!! My 2018 114 started running hot and losing power after a good run on the highway. It was a fairly cool day, its never done that before. Traded it in on a Ducati. I feel kind of bad, but its someone else's problem now
I friend pointed me to a video the GMR put out about some M8 piston jets coming loose. I learned that the M8 jets are different than the twin cam because they use gaskets instead of o-rings. Apparently, the gaskets can crush down after a while and make the jets loose. If I recall, GMR said that S&S makes some better gaskets for the M8 jets.
Yes, that’s been a problem for some. I had them check the torque on the Oilers when my bike sumped and was told the torque was to spec. Some have mentioned that it has something to do with the glue on the factory oiler gaskets, which has prompted some to remove the factory gaskets, clean any residue away and re-install the oilers with cosmetic gaskets, which do not have any glue on them. Had I known that cosmetic was making gaskets that were less trouble prone at the time, I would have had them replaced. First time I’m hearing of S&S making gaskets for the oilers too. All good stuff for folks to know who’ve either dealt with or will deal with a sumping M8.
Quote from: Vision on May 16, 2019, 01:42:37 PM
Yes, that's been a problem for some. I had them check the torque on the Oilers when my bike sumped and was told the torque was to spec. Some have mentioned that it has something to do with the glue on the factory oilerer gaskets, which has prompted some to remove the factory gaskets, clean any residue away and re-install the oilers with cosmetic gaskets, which do not have any glue on them. Had I known that cosmetic was making gaskets that were less trouble prone at the time, I would have had them replaced. First time I'm hearing of S&S making gaskets for the oilers too. All good stuff for folks to know who've either dealt with or will deal with a sumping M8.
Thanks for the education about the glue. Also, maybe the S&S gaskets are really Cometic.
Glad to be of help!
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs? I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Big T you might try running your oil level a quart low.
That's what I did after mine sumped 2 quarts and now I am getting 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS.
Besides the piston oilers being loose and leaking on some bikes, I honestly believe that Harley's suggested oil level is too much and the main cause of the sumping M8's. JMO
[attach=0]
2018 built 124, stock updated oil pump, measured from sump plug
Quote from: Durwood on May 20, 2019, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs? I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Big T you might try running your oil level a quart low.
That's what I did after mine sumped 2 quarts and now I am getting 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS.
Besides the piston oilers being loose and leaking on some bikes, I honestly believe that Harley's suggested oil level is too much and the main cause of the sumping M8's. JMO
[attach=0,msg1298030]
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
Quote from: metaliser on May 21, 2019, 04:22:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on May 20, 2019, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs? I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Big T you might try running your oil level a quart low.
That's what I did after mine sumped 2 quarts and now I am getting 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS.
Besides the piston oilers being loose and leaking on some bikes, I honestly believe that Harley's suggested oil level is too much and the main cause of the sumping M8's. JMO
[attach=0,msg1298030]
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
Yes, and I can't make it sump.
Quote from: Durwood on May 21, 2019, 06:46:53 AM
Quote from: metaliser on May 21, 2019, 04:22:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on May 20, 2019, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs? I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Big T you might try running your oil level a quart low.
That's what I did after mine sumped 2 quarts and now I am getting 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS.
Besides the piston oilers being loose and leaking on some bikes, I honestly believe that Harley's suggested oil level is too much and the main cause of the sumping M8's. JMO
[attach=0,msg1298030]
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
Yes, and I can't make it sump.
Makes sense then, I also think thats the reason for so much blow-by into the breather on these things.
You are correct. IMO
Tc vs m8.
:agree: Perfect Example
Does an M8 have the same size oil pan as a Twincam?
Quote from: BigT on May 23, 2019, 12:57:54 PM
Does an M8 have the same size oil pan as a Twincam?
As far as I can tell without pulling it, yes.
I just checked...different oil pans from a Twin Cam and M8. Funny thing is the Twin Cam one looks deeper than the M8 one.
Quote from: BigT on May 23, 2019, 05:41:35 PM
I just checked...different oil pans from a Twin Cam and M8. Funny thing is the Twin Cam one looks deeper than the M8 one.
I knew they were different part numbers because of the relocation of the trans drain but they look similar in size was what I meant.
Quote from: Durwood on May 21, 2019, 06:46:53 AM
Quote from: metaliser on May 21, 2019, 04:22:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on May 20, 2019, 04:52:21 AM
Quote from: BigT on May 14, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
I started this thread last September when I thought the seal was the solution. I just pulled the crank position sensor on my 124" build and got about 7oz out. All of the prior checks on my previous 117" with the Harley cover with the seal resulted in 1 oz or less. I'm not seeing full blown sumping issues but 7oz of oil sloshing around in the lower end can't be helping performance! I wonder if anyone with the Fueling pump has checked after prolonged high rpm runs? I also have installed a vent on the oil fill....
Big T you might try running your oil level a quart low.
That's what I did after mine sumped 2 quarts and now I am getting 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS.
Besides the piston oilers being loose and leaking on some bikes, I honestly believe that Harley's suggested oil level is too much and the main cause of the sumping M8's. JMO
[attach=0,msg1298030]
So your running basically the same amount in your M8 as you did in a Twin Cam now, correct ?
Yes, and I can't make it sump.
I've always ran mike bikes on the low side, even twin cams to help with blow by. I've been running my M8 a quart low all along and haven't had any issues. Only 5k miles on it though
I've been following this thread closely. Help me out a little here...how does running the oil level 1 qt low stop it from sumping?
Just trying to learn here.... Thanks
A friend had his bike in getting tuned, they talked about a few of the issues with the M8s including sumping, and the tech took my friend over to three different bikes with motors torn down due to sumping, all three caused by failed piston oilers.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 02, 2019, 07:37:12 PM
A friend had his bike in getting tuned, they talked about a few of the issues with the M8s including sumping, and the tech took my friend over to three different bikes with motors torn down due to sumping, all three caused by failed piston oilers.
Quote from: FloridaJim5 on June 02, 2019, 12:10:21 PM
I've been following this thread closely. Help me out a little here...how does running the oil level 1 qt low stop it from sumping?
Just trying to learn here.... Thanks
I've been following this closely too, one thing to remember is there are several issues out there that result in sumping. Some have been the piston oilers loose and leaking, in this case it's an internal leak flooding the crank case which nothing will help cure the issue until the gasket is replaced and and the leak is stopped. Some of these M8's are sumping due to breathing issues and running them a quart low seems to help by giving a little bit more air space to help it breathe. At least this is the way I'm understanding things right now but that is subject to change
Quote from: FloridaJim5 on June 02, 2019, 12:10:21 PM
I've been following this thread closely. Help me out a little here...how does running the oil level 1 qt low stop it from sumping?
Just trying to learn here.... Thanks
I have built and tuned several 124" M8's and all but one sumped during tuning. What I noticed is that once they did, I would pull the dip stick to make sure they had oil and complete the tune without sumping again.
That's when I deliberately set mine at 3.5 qts and ran it like Hoss running away from a Road Glide fairing and it has not sumped. I have tried repeatedly and all is well.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 02, 2019, 07:37:12 PM
A friend had his bike in getting tuned, they talked about a few of the issues with the M8s including sumping, and the tech took my friend over to three different bikes with motors torn down due to sumping, all three caused by failed piston oilers.
Begs the question. What kind of moron would use gaskets in an o-ring age especially in this application? Talk about a step backward in sealing technology.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on June 03, 2019, 05:55:46 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 02, 2019, 07:37:12 PM
A friend had his bike in getting tuned, they talked about a few of the issues with the M8s including sumping, and the tech took my friend over to three different bikes with motors torn down due to sumping, all three caused by failed piston oilers.
Begs the question. What kind of moron would use gaskets in an o-ring age especially in this application? Talk about a step backward in sealing technology.
Ron
One less machining proce$$ in making the part?
Quote from: kd on June 03, 2019, 06:11:41 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 03, 2019, 05:55:46 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 02, 2019, 07:37:12 PM
A friend had his bike in getting tuned, they talked about a few of the issues with the M8s including sumping, and the tech took my friend over to three different bikes with motors torn down due to sumping, all three caused by failed piston oilers.
Begs the question. What kind of moron would use gaskets in an o-ring age especially in this application? Talk about a step backward in sealing technology.
Ron
One less machining proce$$ in making the part?
I'm sure the 1/4 cent the saved will make up for all the warranty claims. :hyst: Like I said, a moronic move on their part.
Ron
Quote from: Durwood on June 03, 2019, 05:21:20 AM
Quote from: FloridaJim5 on June 02, 2019, 12:10:21 PM
I've been following this thread closely. Help me out a little here...how does running the oil level 1 qt low stop it from sumping?
Just trying to learn here.... Thanks
I have built and tuned several 124" M8's and all but one sumped during tuning. What I noticed is that once they did, I would pull the dip stick to make sure they had oil and complete the tune without sumping again.
That's when I deliberately set mine at 3.5 qts and ran it like Hoss running away from a Road Glide fairing and it has not sumped. I have tried repeatedly and all is well.
Where does the oil register on the dipstick when full hot on the Kickstand with 3.5 quarts?
Quote from: Vision on June 03, 2019, 06:35:49 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 03, 2019, 05:21:20 AM
Quote from: FloridaJim5 on June 02, 2019, 12:10:21 PM
I've been following this thread closely. Help me out a little here...how does running the oil level 1 qt low stop it from sumping?
Just trying to learn here.... Thanks
I have built and tuned several 124" M8's and all but one sumped during tuning. What I noticed is that once they did, I would pull the dip stick to make sure they had oil and complete the tune without sumping again.
That's when I deliberately set mine at 3.5 qts and ran it like Hoss running away from a Road Glide fairing and it has not sumped. I have tried repeatedly and all is well.
Where does the oil register on the dipstick when full hot on the Kickstand with 3.5 quarts?
Right at the bottom of the lowest add mark.
There's generally 1/2" difference between upright and on the side stand. It's easy to confirm by doing 2 each hot and cold checks.
I just saw a video posted by a vendor here that shows the problem with the oilers. The screws are self tapping, but the holes are not quite drilled deep enough, or it may be that they will not tighten enough when installed with the oilers in place, much like the old problem with the compensator bolts being slightly too long.
The solution he used was to remove the oiler, reinstall the screws, and gently seat and unseat them a few times to get them to bite just a little deeper. That, and a slightly thicker Cometic gasket solves the problem.
Durwood, nice analogy of hard running comparing it to me running from a RoadGlide fairing! That had me laughing!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/566029816933140/permalink/1138202416382541?sfns=mo
Look at me posting links! Hope this is ok here. If not, I apologize, and it can be pulled.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 03, 2019, 07:24:42 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/566029816933140/permalink/1138202416382541?sfns=mo
Look at me posting links! Hope this is ok here. If not, I apologize, and it can be pulled.
wow! good post Hoss, and GMR
Hoss :up:
there's more to it as well, being self tapping screws they displace material back toward the flat surface so the flat surface around the hole becomes mushroomed out, too easy for the gasket to bottom to the mushroom top and still leak
better to bottom out the screw then slightly countersink the hole to remove the mushroom
so, aside from mfg cost. Why not just tap the hole? Or drill it a little deeper? or use a slightly shorter screw?
I have had them sump after addressing the oiler issue, which I do whenever the cylinders are off.
Oil pump doesn't matter, with or without updated cover with seal or S&S, they still sump.
But once the oil level dropped the sumping stopped. This is on 8 different bikes that I built and tuned.
Quote from: Durwood on June 04, 2019, 04:38:24 AM
I have had them sump after addressing the oiler issue, which I do whenever the cylinders are off.
Oil pump doesn't matter, with or without updated cover with seal or S&S, they still sump.
But once the oil level dropped the sumping stopped. This is on 8 different bikes that I built and tuned.
A friend of mine had sumping on a very long trip and once it started it kept recurring , he said the only way to get it to stop to get home was running the oil about a quart lower. Another case to confirm your findings Durwood. :up: :up:
For anyone interested, GMR has posted some other videos on his vendor page as well.
Quote from: JMHD on June 04, 2019, 05:04:22 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 04, 2019, 04:38:24 AM
I have had them sump after addressing the oiler issue, which I do whenever the cylinders are off.
Oil pump doesn't matter, with or without updated cover with seal or S&S, they still sump.
But once the oil level dropped the sumping stopped. This is on 8 different bikes that I built and tuned.
A friend of mine had sumping on a very long trip and once it started it kept recurring , he said the only way to get it to stop to get home was running the oil about a quart lower. Another case to confirm your findings Durwood. :up: :up:
:up: :up:
What I'd like to know is how some of the shops that do a lot of larger builds are claiming that they have never had a single one sump. Are they all running the oil level low?
Quote from: VDeuce on June 05, 2019, 04:37:24 PM
What I'd like to know is how some of the shops that do a lot of larger builds are claiming that they have never had a single one sump. Are they all running the oil level low?
perhaps they don't look for it.
Quote from: SixShooter14 on June 05, 2019, 08:26:24 PM
Quote from: VDeuce on June 05, 2019, 04:37:24 PM
What I'd like to know is how some of the shops that do a lot of larger builds are claiming that they have never had a single one sump. Are they all running the oil level low?
perhaps they don't look for it.
You don't have to look for it, trust me you know when it happens.
Especially when one sumps in first gear leaving a gas station merging in to traffic. Not freaking fun.
Hey Durwood. How common a problem is leaking oil jets? Once Harley increased the torque spec did that help with the later builds? Thanks.
Quote from: rich1 on June 07, 2019, 09:33:37 AM
Hey Durwood. How common a problem is leaking oil jets? Once Harley increased the torque spec did that help with the later builds? Thanks.
It's hit and miss, I tighten the screws a tad even on the ones that don't move.
Hi Durwood, Have you experimented with any of the "ventilators" out there yet? just curious if they help with the sumping and still maintain "factory oil levels"
Quote from: richbiker on June 12, 2019, 01:26:03 PM
Hi Durwood, Have you experimented with any of the "ventilators" out there yet? just curious if they help with the sumping and still maintain "factory oil levels"
They will still sump with a vented dip stick. The only thing I have found that actually stops it is oil level. The 4.5 oz from the sump plug, not the CPS is from my bike with the OE, non-vented dip stick.
We have also tried the vented cap with no success.
Quote from: Prostock on June 13, 2019, 10:34:02 AM
We have also tried the vented cap with no success.
Are these vented caps like the one A1 cycle is selling?
Ok guys, don't beat me up for this, but...
I have a 2018 RGS with a 120" I built. It sumped once. I installed the Feuling race pump and plate, no other changes. I have not sumped since, no matter how I ride it, for 8K miles (high load, high RPM, varying altitudes, 2-up, wide open throttle, you name it).
I'm not saying it's a fix, nor am I trying to sell product or convince anyone. Just trying like everyone else to figure it out and prevent it on my bike. I also understand neither Feuling or S&S will guaranty this solves sumping. Perhaps it is some odd combination of issues but for me it has solved it (for now).
I am interested in the venting ideas, but see some of you report they have not helped.
I was about to pull the trigger on a Feuling pump and plate after having bikes with the other available offerings sump.
Then I noticed on all the bikes that sumped, once the level was down I could complete the tune without it ever sumping again.
That's when I tried the lower oil level on my bike and haven't been able to make it sump.
VDeuce, your experience with Feuling is what was leading me that way, and like you I am not selling anything, just sharing what I have been witnessing. Glad the Feuling worked out for you, and curious where your oil level is on the stick?
Quote from: Durwood on June 14, 2019, 04:27:16 AM
I was about to pull the trigger on a Feuling pump and plate after having bikes with the other available offerings sump.
Then I noticed on all the bikes that sumped, once the level was down I could complete the tune without it ever sumping again.
That's when I tried the lower oil level on my bike and haven't been able to make it sump.
VDeuce, your experience with Feuling is what was leading me that way, and like you I am not selling anything, just sharing what I have been witnessing. Glad the Feuling worked out for you, and curious where your oil level is on the stick?
I believed even Tom Reiser is recommending lowering the tide on the oil level
For M8s . From memory he suggests 4 marks down from top - jiffy stand level, mark it with a hacksaw ' unquote.
I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.
Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
:chop:
Quote from: sandrooney on June 14, 2019, 08:51:43 AM
Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
7 Touring, zero Softail's.
The few Softail's that I have built barely had enough sump contents to grease a drain pan.
I check them at the sump plug, not the CPS.
Thanks Durwood for all the info you have provided.
It'd be nice to see some drilled head screws and safetywire on the piston oiler screws.
Quote from: guppymech on June 15, 2019, 07:33:10 AM
It'd be nice to see some drilled head screws and safetywire on the piston oiler screws.
Agreed.
Did them that way on Twin Cams.
If I were to start working on Milwaukee Eights, I would certainly do it on all M8s when working in that area.
Especially with their inherent situation on these mounting screws.
Seems like if that was the "REAL" solution it would be a pretty cheap and easy fix for HD. Simply ship every M8 owner a new, recalibrated engine oil dipstick and change the oil quantities in the owner and service manuals.
Quote from: JMHD on June 04, 2019, 05:04:22 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 04, 2019, 04:38:24 AM
I have had them sump after addressing the oiler issue, which I do whenever the cylinders are off.
Oil pump doesn't matter, with or without updated cover with seal or S&S, they still sump.
But once the oil level dropped the sumping stopped. This is on 8 different bikes that I built and tuned.
A friend of mine had sumping on a very long trip and once it started it kept recurring , he said the only way to get it to stop to get home was running the oil about a quart lower. Another case to confirm your findings Durwood. :up: :up:
Quote from: Durwood on June 15, 2019, 03:18:57 AM
:chop:Quote from: sandrooney on June 14, 2019, 08:51:43 AM
Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
7 Touring, zero Softail's.
The few Softail's that I have built barely had enough sump contents to grease a drain pan.
I check them at the sump plug, not the CPS.
Any theory as to why that is? Are the engine cases significantly different? Oil pump? Spec for oil quantity?
Silly thought I just had today.
Anyone thought about running a line from the sump plug directly back to the oil pan? Obviously some fittings and a good steel braided line would be needed, but that's easy.
Any thoughts from the guru's?
Unless you provide a second, in line oil pump to make it flow back to the tank, I don't see how it would accomplish much.
Yep, you would need a pump on it. Just a simple oil line will make it worse as the bottom of the crankcase and oil pan are roughly the same height. It would put more oil into the crankcase as it would flow from the tank to the crankcase.
Quote from: PoorUB on June 21, 2019, 06:07:47 AM
Yep, you would need a pump on it. Just a simple oil line will make it worse as the bottom of the crankcase and oil pan are roughly the same height. It would put more oil into the crankcase as it would flow from the tank to the crankcase.
A one way auto (spring) actuated in-line valve may evacuate on positive lapses as the pistons drop and close on the negative pulses as the pistons rise as well as provide a check valve to prevent drain back from the oil reservoir. :scratch: More stuff to maintain and go wrong if it worked but no real moving parts.
Well, after posing the question around the interweb, it doesn't seem likely that it would work.
Oh well, thought I had a brief moment genius! lol
Quote from: VDeuce on June 14, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.
VD, further to my post on castings etc, I have assembled my camchest with original. Pump and plate O ringed, and ran the bike on the bench with air cleaner off and breathers exposed.
I ran it up for several minutes with dipstick out but sitting in place. When I increased revs I noticed the dipstick being sucked back into position.
I shut it down and checked oil at CPS. - 75 ml.
I ran the bike again with. Dipstick firmly in place for several minutes. Shut it down and drained 150 ml from CPS. With dipstick in situ and the revs increased, the breather output diminished noticeably.
The vacuum in the sump is aerating the oil and preventing the pump from scavenging properly. It is also drawing oil from the tank directly into. The sump( I think)
Next step is to vent the oil tank for me.
Running a lower oil volume inadvertently increases the amount of available air space which in effect, changes the pressure differentiation.
More testing tomorrow.
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 03, 2019, 07:35:27 AM
Quote from: VDeuce on June 14, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.
VD, further to my post on castings etc, I have assembled my camchest with original. Pump and plate O ringed, and ran the bike on the bench with air cleaner off and breathers exposed.
I ran it up for several minutes with dipstick out but sitting in place. When I increased revs I noticed the dipstick being sucked back into position.
I shut it down and checked oil at CPS. - 75 ml.
I ran the bike again with. Dipstick firmly in place for several minutes. Shut it down and drained 150 ml from CPS. With dipstick in situ and the revs increased, the breather output diminished noticeably.
The vacuum in the sump is aerating the oil and preventing the pump from scavenging properly. It is also drawing oil from the tank directly into. The sump( I think)
Next step is to vent the oil tank for me.
Running a lower oil volume inadvertently increases the amount of available air space which in effect, changes the pressure differentiation.
More testing tomorrow.
That makes it sound like the oil tank is perhaps too small? Maybe the spec'd oil quantity is correct for cooling and lubrication, but the tank doesn't maintain enough air space. An interesting test :up: Keep us posted, please
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 03, 2019, 07:35:27 AM
Quote from: VDeuce on June 14, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.
VD, further to my post on castings etc, I have assembled my camchest with original. Pump and plate O ringed, and ran the bike on the bench with air cleaner off and breathers exposed.
I ran it up for several minutes with dipstick out but sitting in place. When I increased revs I noticed the dipstick being sucked back into position.
I shut it down and checked oil at CPS. - 75 ml.
I ran the bike again with. Dipstick firmly in place for several minutes. Shut it down and drained 150 ml from CPS. With dipstick in situ and the revs increased, the breather output diminished noticeably.
The vacuum in the sump is aerating the oil and preventing the pump from scavenging properly. It is also drawing oil from the tank directly into. The sump( I think)
Next step is to vent the oil tank for me.
Running a lower oil volume inadvertently increases the amount of available air space which in effect, changes the pressure differentiation.
More testing tomorrow.
Excellent testing! Some guys have been venting the dipstick by drilling a hole and adding a brake bleeder, then a hose attached. It really seems we have a venting problem with these engines. I can't take credit for those findings as TR and others have already been there.
Here is the T-Man video on venting the oil tank, not sure if you've seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni3pT5aHE4M
I have a retired engineer who has vast experience in pumps. He applies the necessary maths, where us laymen look for cause and affect.
These are fundamentally pumps. The oil tank and crank case represent a space. As we increase the displacement we offset the the original mathematic conditions and alter the pressure variables.
You can throw pumps at these left right and centre, but if you have a increasing vacuum, aeration etc, the pump struggles.
If you think you are sumping, try the inititial loose dipstick test and expose your breathers. Accelerate the engine and observe the vacuum . The breathers will reduce their output, effectively shutting off.
Further tests today with breather on Dipstick!
Oil level down to 3 litres!
Still sumped!
Science is helping!
Not happy!
"As we increase the displacement we offset the the original mathematic conditions and alter the pressure variable."
Just thinking out loud here but I wonder if removing the counter balancer when increasing displacement would be enough to offset the differences you speak of?
Right now I wouldn't have a clue.
Currently stripping it down for another. Look.
So we tried intentionally bring on sumping by opening the oil tank to the atmosphere.
We used the original pump and plate.
Keep in mind this is an early M8 RG with a CR460 and 117 CP pistons @10.75:1.
It's sumped like ther was no tomorrow. Almost 3 litres of oil out of thE CPS.
This has kind of turned me upside down , but gives me a clear insight as to how critical it is to have no air leaks.
Question,
What is an acceptable amount of residual oil in the sump at running temp when stationary. As in turned off. ?
Jim, I have my personal bike down to 4.5oz from the sump plug. Zero from the crank sensor and it sumped 2 quarts prior to that.
The norm seems to be about 8oz from the sump plug.
Quote from: Nastytls on June 18, 2019, 09:00:13 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 15, 2019, 03:18:57 AM
:chop:Quote from: sandrooney on June 14, 2019, 08:51:43 AM
Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
7 Touring, zero Softail's.
The few Softail's that I have built barely had enough sump contents to grease a drain pan.
I check them at the sump plug, not the CPS.
Any theory as to why that is? Are the engine cases significantly different? Oil pump? Spec for oil quantity?
I want to know the same thing. What is the internal differences between the touring and softail motors that would cause the touring to have the sumping issues? Oil return, venting?
Durwood , what was your remedy for your sumping issue, apart from lowering 5he oil volume.?
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 04, 2019, 07:21:01 AM
Durwood , what was your remedy for your sumping issue, apart from lowering 5he oil volume.?
Lowering the oil level has fixed every one thus far. Be sure to check the piston oilers while apart.
Like I said earlier in the thread, I noticed on the dyno that all of the sumping builds, once drained did not sump again. Didn't matter what oil pump was in them, S&S, OE without seal or OE with seal.
That's when I tried it on mine and it worked. 1200 miles and no sumping.
Further to my dilemma, I installed a new HD pump and plate.
Corrected oil level to 3.5 Qt.
Road bike
For 30 minutes on a cool day and had temps of 311 degrees F. Kept
Speed under 60mph.
Returned to garage and ran bike
Upright for 1-2 minutes. Removed CPS and drained approximately 180 mls from sump.
Are you certain the piston oilers are not leaking? I know you mentioned you tightened them, but did you replace the gaskets?
Yes VD.
Road it again today!
Carried out test as per bulletin 1450 and drained 300ml from CPS.
I am over this heap of S##t
Would/could the crankshaft seal be leaking/ as in allowing air into the crankcase?
am I not understanding your post? 180 ml is only 6 oz so If that's correct you are good once you get it tuned.
TX, I initially got approximately 150 ml. Second run I road further and drained out 300ml. It's like there is an air leak with crankcase. I am as confused as the next person,but I am thinking that possibly the drawing in of to the crankcase May be an issue,
still sumping! Especially in low revs/ traffic and rising temps. I am done!
117 kit and $3k out of pocket including to oil pumps and a host of new gaskets!
Back to 107, baby Cam and original set up.
Failing that, it's back to the future.
Seen one instance of porus lifter bore ( video on here somewhere iirc)
is this mostly happening to motors with stages added or is it common to the stock 114 also? I unfortunately didn't research before buying my 19 limited july 4th.
I have a 19 Limited with 3600 miles on it and have no issues at all. I've also installed a S&S cam and exhaust and had dynoed at 1100 miles with no issues.
After considerable effort to solve the sumping issue, including a pump engineer, lots of science jargon, some guessing and a 107 - 117 and back to 107 conversion I still have sumping as described by TSB 1450.
With a lowered oil level (3.5 litres) in an otherwise stock 107 with a 460 Cam, still getting 10-12 Oz from CPS port.
The map is sound
The oil pump is the current HD offering with seal.
Tried a vent on dipstick with no positive result.
No oil leaks
Any ideas ?
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 24, 2019, 06:37:59 AM
After considerable effort to solve the sumping issue, including a pump engineer, lots of science jargon, some guessing and a 107 - 117 and back to 107 conversion I still have sumping as described by TSB 1450.
With a lowered oil level (3.5 litres) in an otherwise stock 107 with a 460 Cam, still getting 10-12 Oz from CPS port.
The map is sound
The oil pump is the current HD offering with seal.
Tried a vent on dipstick with no positive result.
No oil leaks
Any ideas ?
Excessive feed side leakage beyond it's normal paths and more then what the scavenge side can handle is the only explanation. Have you checked into defective cam plate, loose oilers and possible casting flaw Hardtail78 pointed out in one of his vids. Sounds like it's dumping oil out of places it shouldn't. You must be very patient. I would have burnt the fker to the ground by now with all the frustration.
Ron
Thanks Ron, I have no choice but to rectify it. Oilers are good. It hasn't always done. Prior to commencing with the mods, it ran well, didn't appear to sump, and engine temps were reasonable 270 - 290f*.
Maybe TMans mod on the case regarding the scraper mind be the final solution. I am loathed the remove it from frame. ☠️
QuoteOilers are good.
did you pull them to ensure the holes are not mushroomed out and holding the oiler slightly proud ?
On the oilers. Yes we faced them and ensured a flush fit!
Sunny Jim, at this point, have you considered specifically trying the Feuling HP race series oil pump and cam plate. Both me and VDeuce experienced pretty much the same after going to the Feuling on our 120+ builds along with another friend of mine that has a 19 post seal CVO RG Sumper. No further sumping since.
I have 3000 miles now post sumping (sumped just shy of 3000 miles)and the Feuling Pump install with no issues. Had the CPS pulled at around the 5000 mark for service and barely drained 3 ounces.
Like VDeuce, I was using a Hayden check valve off my breather bolts, but have since since removed the Hayden and now vent right to a catch can. I made this change at the 5000 mile mark And added a Feuling vented dipstick at the same time which also has a check valve. Still smooth sailing and I ride pretty hard on a regular basis.
I still keep coming back to the Feuling Pump and plate being the silver bullet for me. If the Feuling out performs the factory pump with scavenging to a point where it can handle the pressure issues discussed in this thread and can effectively evacuate the crank shaft, that may be it. Just my thoughts. Also very curious about the new crank case breathers from t-Man as potentially being the root of the pressure issues.
Quote from: Vision on August 01, 2019, 12:25:15 PM
Sunny Jim, at this point, have you considered specifically trying the Feuling HP race series oil pump and cam plate. Both me and VDeuce experienced pretty much the same after going to the Feuling on our 120+ builds along with another friend of mine that has a 19 post seal CVO RG Sumper. No further sumping since.
I have 3000 miles now post sumping (sumped just shy of 3000 miles)and the Feuling Pump install with no issues. Had the CPS pulled at around the 5000 mark for service and barely drained 3 ounces.
Like VDeuce, I was using a Hayden check valve off my breather bolts, but have since since removed the Hayden and now vent right to a catch can. I made this change at the 5000 mile mark And added a Feuling vented dipstick at the same time which also has a check valve. Still smooth sailing and I ride pretty hard on a regular basis.
I still keep coming back to the Feuling Pump and plate being the silver bullet for me. If the Feuling out performs the factory pump with scavenging to a point where it can handle the pressure issues discussed in this thread and can effectively evacuate the crank shaft, that may be it. Just my thoughts. Also very curious about the new crank case breathers from t-Man as potentially being the root of the pressure issues.
I have considered feuling. I have the new SS kit siting there. I guess I am somewhat hesitant, considering the SS was unsuccessful somewhere along the line. No the bike is back to 107 I have been riding it on runs up to an hour only, and I have been getting up to 400 ml out of the CPS. .
It runs really well. It currently has HD pump and seal. The one thing that we are noticing is the oil pump is noisy when it's hot.
Anyway, no all the stress has dissipated, I am going start from scratch and DIARISE every little move. The memory can get in the way! Lol!
On Feuling pump and plate option, I see there are options.
Which part number is the recommended unit?
You want the one labeled Race Series. Both the pump(7020)and the cam plate(8017) are anodized red. The pump listed is for oil cooled.
Added Feuling per numbers above.
I get how my last post was executed. Sorry admin.
However, the assertion is that the alleged response from feuling is that their pump sorts it out.
I discussed this sumping issue with a local service manager/ technician and he informed me that HD can't cure all that sump.
The oil pump solves some problems! But they go to other extremes like removing the oil pan sump and cleaning it out _ what is that about?
And stripping 5he engine completely to just a crankcase and crank/rods only - spin it 20 times and feel for seizing etc .
- seriously?
This problem is bigger than Ben hur!
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 09, 2019, 06:42:43 AM
I get how my last post was executed. Sorry admin.
However, the assertion is that the alleged response from feuling is that their pump sorts it out.
I discussed this sumping issue with a local service manager/ technician and he informed me that HD can't cure all that sump.
The oil pump solves some problems! But they go to other extremes like removing the oil pan sump and cleaning it out _ what is that about?
And stripping 5he engine completely to just a crankcase and crank/rods only - spin it 20 times and feel for seizing etc .
- seriously?
This problem is bigger than Ben hur!
This post is kind of a mess to understand...
Plenty of builders have found sticky rods with the M8 Sunny Jim, dunno how it could have anything to do with sumping though.
Here is my 2 cents on the sumping issue. 2018 FLHTKSE CVO Limited 115th ANV, #758/1200. Purchased new March 2018. On about 6-1-2018, at 6,100 miles it sumped, thought it was bad gas cleared up at about 6,200 miles. 1/3 Loss of power, ran hot, fans ran a long time after shutting it off and gas mileage was cut in half. At 6,768 miles it did it again. Dealer replaced pistons, jugs, rings, gaskets. Oil pump was the latest version, tech dis-assembled pump, inspected it and reinstalled it. The tech said he didn't know what caused it and Harley didn't know what caused it (see H-D Service bulletin M 1450). Dealer did a 1K oil change at about 7,700 miles and oil changes at 10,000, 12,500 miles. Sump had 3-4 oz of oil each time. Then I read on one of these H-D M8 Forums that the 2019 Stage 3 & 4 M8's had the part number 25700731, gasket set, cam service and part number 62400206, oil pump assy cover that 2017 & 2018 big bore M8's did not have. My dealer found these parts at another dealer and on 10-16-2018 at 13,596 miles they added them under warranty along with a Stage 2, horse power cam (I paid for the cam, no labor charge). Today is 8-17-2019, I have 29, 500+ miles on this bike with no issues. When the crankcase position sensor is pulled a few drops of oil come out of the sump. No more fluctuating oil levels like before these parts (25700731 & 62400206) were added. The bike consumes a little oil between changes. After 4,000 plus miles the oil level is down between 4 and 5 dots on the dipstick. I always check the oil level the same way so as to compare apples to apples. Also, when the oil change is first done and I ride home 27 miles and check it it always shows 2 dots low to start with. I can't believe H-D has not had a recall of the big bore (Stage 3 &4) 2017 & 2018 M8's to do the upgrade that was done on mine. They are just waiting for these bikes to go out of warranty.
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 16, 2019, 07:17:48 AM
still sumping! Especially in low revs/ traffic and rising temps. I am done!
117 kit and $3k out of pocket including to oil pumps and a host of new gaskets!
Back to 107, baby Cam and original set up.
Failing that, it's back to the future.
Not to give up! And reading over my seemingly bewildering previous posts,
The ' sumping at low revs' issue has caused me to get back to basics.
This issue is not the same as others who seem to sump at high rpm.
Hence forth , I finally got the. Opportunity to borrow an oil pressure gauge
And check da pressure (sober).
And there it was! 75psi @ idle -hot. 100 psi @3000rpm.
Long story short.
A blockage.
We bypassed the oiling system through the heads from oil cooler to return oil line.
Ran the bike on the bench at 270*f.
Oil pressure 25-30psi.
Removed cps and NO oil flowed out.
Tested all external head plumbing - ok. Cooler -ok.
Heads off.
Big thanks to the head service tech who installed grub screws deep into pilot hole on head face. Screws blocked the oil flow through heads, thus causing a blockage , high head temps and massive oil dumping into the crankcase.
So much so that the pressure relief valve was overwhelmed with volume.
And SS pump /plate made it even worse.
So , here lies the lesson !
Read TSB carefully and follow every procedure.
I am somewhat embarrassed BUT, it is what it is.
Cheers!
W>O>W>!!!!
Glad you finally found root cause- can they be repaired?
Nice job! Glad you finally found the problem. Problems are so frustrating.
See? Piece of cake!
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 23, 2019, 09:17:59 AM
W>O>W>!!!!
Glad you finally found root cause- can they be repaired?
Yes! Remove screws, clean em' up and install screws with loctite to the correct depth OR just leave the out.
Quote from: klammer76 on August 23, 2019, 09:31:39 AM
Nice job! Glad you finally found the problem. Problems are can be so frustrating.
:agree:
nice job...I've been following your post. :up:
For an old fart like me...could you please explain to me what "grub screws" your talking about that were installed into the head face?
I just can't picture what your talking about.
Quote from: No Cents on August 23, 2019, 05:37:31 PM
nice job...I've been following your post. :up:
For an old fart like me...could you please explain to me what "grub screws" your talking about that were installed into the head face?
I just can't picture what your talking about.
E en an old fart like me too. Grub screws were a recommendation from SS as I recall, for bigger bores and head gasket issues!
You are da man. Sort of like the little train from down under that never gave up !! :up:
thanks for the reply Jim! :up:
I have never seen that before.
Quote from: klammer76 on August 23, 2019, 09:31:39 AM
Nice job! Glad you finally found the problem. Problems are so frustrating.
[/queote]
:up: :up:
The southwest regions a Western Australia makes some the best red wine in the planet.
Some of this was evident in my meandering posts.
I went with the technical ' call in the engineer ' route in an attempt to cure the common cold! But I new my sumping was not like the others.
All I new was that it didn't sump ( as I know it) before I ripped it apart.
Anyway I just need to sort out the leaky pushrod tunes, new seals and all , then it is back on the road tomorrow for test ride.
A big thanks to 'to da Max'.
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 24, 2019, 05:38:48 AM
The southwest regions a Western Australia makes some the best red wine in the planet.
Some of this was evident in my meandering posts.
I went with the technical ' call in the engineer ' route in an attempt to cure the common cold! But I new my sumping was not like the others.
All I new was that it didn't sump ( as I know it) before I ripped it apart.
Anyway I just need to sort out the leaky pushrod tunes, new seals and all , then it is back on the road tomorrow for test ride.
A big thanks to 'to da Max'.
To The Max dumbass. we learnt a lot but there is a little more to learn. would like to see how much oil comes out of the sump plug hole in 15 seconds while the motor is running and you need to post the before and after. this I think was a pivotal point in us understanding what was going on. all credit to you, you never gave up , you cried a lot :teeth:
Road test today (107 cr460 and 040 HG) .
Temp got no hotter than 288*f. Averaged temp at around 275*f.
Road for an hour or so and returned to remove CPS - no oil!
Happy!
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 25, 2019, 07:03:37 AM
Road test today (107 cr460 and 040 HG) .
Temp got no hotter than 288*f. Averaged temp at around 275*f.
Road for an hour or so and returned to remove CPS - no oil!
Happy!
[attach=0]
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 25, 2019, 07:03:37 AM
Road test today (107 cr460 and 040 HG) .
Temp got no hotter than 288*f. Averaged temp at around 275*f.
Road for an hour or so and returned to remove CPS - no oil!
Happy!
Are you going to put the 117 back on now?
Quote from: Txwezl on August 25, 2019, 01:41:26 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 25, 2019, 07:03:37 AM
Road test today (107 cr460 and 040 HG) .
Temp got no hotter than 288*f. Averaged temp at around 275*f.
Road for an hour or so and returned to remove CPS - no oil!
Happy!
Are you going to put the 117 back on now?
curious about this too
one set of heads and the tech put the screws in too deep when going from 107 to 117 ?
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 25, 2019, 03:44:20 PM
Quote from: Txwezl on August 25, 2019, 01:41:26 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 25, 2019, 07:03:37 AM
Road test today (107 cr460 and 040 HG) .
Temp got no hotter than 288*f. Averaged temp at around 275*f.
Road for an hour or so and returned to remove CPS - no oil!
Happy!
Are you going to put the 117 back on now?
curious about this too
one set of heads and the tech put the screws in too deep when going from 107 to 117 ?
The original prob was the fly cutting marks on the head were so deep , the cometic gaskets would not seal. We had the heads serviced. The grub screws were installed.
We set about solving a severe sumping issue, with no consideration for high oil pressure . The SS pump is so efficient it exacerbated the problem.
We unwound the project right back to almost original, before we test oil pressure. ( key error).
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 25, 2019, 04:18:27 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 25, 2019, 03:44:20 PM
Quote from: Txwezl on August 25, 2019, 01:41:26 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 25, 2019, 07:03:37 AM
Road test today (107 cr460 and 040 HG) .
Temp got no hotter than 288*f. Averaged temp at around 275*f.
Road for an hour or so and returned to remove CPS - no oil!
Happy!
Are you going to put the 117 back on now?
curious about this too
one set of heads and the tech put the screws in too deep when going from 107 to 117 ?
The original prob was the fly cutting marks on the head were so deep , the cometic gaskets would not seal. We had the heads serviced. The grub screws were installed.
We set about solving a severe sumping issue, with no consideration for high oil pressure . The SS pump is so efficient it exacerbated the problem.
We unwound the project right back to almost original, before we test oil pressure. ( key error).
:up:
:turd:got hit with sumping but its intermittent. I lose power, come to an idle for a couple min. and it's fine for what could be days. Its happenedv3 times. Driving along. Loses power, come to idle and it's fine. Dealer pulled case plug and 6oz came out. They say it's normal. Can not duplicate... ugh
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on September 15, 2019, 06:06:22 AM
:turd:got hit with sumping but its intermittent. I lose power, come to an idle for a couple min. and it's fine for what could be days. Its happenedv3 times. Driving along. Loses power, come to idle and it's fine. Dealer pulled case plug and 6oz came out. They say it's normal. Can not duplicate... ugh
Pump change imminent!
I'd give the new 8 gerotor pump a try. About $110 plus labor. If still under warranty, stick it to em and make them install it.
The new pump is $186.00 and the plate that must be used with it is another $27.00
https://www.surdyke.com/PartsMain.aspx?PartNumber=62400247&SubCatID=&CatID=&Name=&CatName=
$109.86
62400247 is the kit p/n which contains 62400126 gerotor assy; 62400238 oil pump assy; 62400245 oil pump assy, cover for air-cooled bikes.
The water cooled one is a lot higher. Surdyke didn't recognize the Pn when I checked their site a couple weeks ago.
It looks like S&S just added a rubber seal to their oil pump that is similar to the HD cover.
[attach=0]
What oil pump is that? I don't see that pump on their website :idunno:
Supposedly another change being released.
If it is a S&S, it should be blue anodized. I did not think they made a pump to fit the stock Harley cam plate. I will try to call them to see what is going on. Getting ready to run to BB&BBQ on Thursday and pulled about 16oz out of my case yesterday.
I've read this whole column and not once was it asked. Why not use an oil cooled oil pump on a twin cooled engine? They will pass more volume than the twin cooled model. Aren't he soft tails all using the oil cooled pump and not the twin cooled one and you never hear of any soft tails sumping?
Quote from: jstitan2017 on September 24, 2019, 09:47:32 AM
I've read this whole column and not once was it asked. Why not use an oil cooled oil pump on a twin cooled engine? They will pass more volume than the twin cooled model. Aren't he soft tails all using the oil cooled pump and not the twin cooled one and you never hear of any soft tails sumping?
The oil cooled pump has a higher pumping volume because it pumps a large volume of its oil to the cylinder heads . if you fit this pump to a twin cooled motor the larger volume will cause the oil pressure to go through the roof and the motor will sump at idle and before you get two miles down the road. going the other way will more than likely to cause oil starvation I would think. Max
Just read every post from front to back. Didn't see anything about trying a Feuling vented dipstick to relive pressure from the oil case. I have an 18 M8 that started out with oil migration. After 1 1/2 years of my warranty with oil studies and two try's from the dealer, oil is still just off the tranny dipstick, Harley call's it fix. [ Primary vent installed ] Never had a sumping issue until after the vented dipstick was installed. I check my oil levels often. I put in the vented dipstick just because, before the sumping started. Not saying that caused it, I like venting. Went on a fall trip to the other side of the state and on the way home the x-way was moving. 80 - 85 all the way home. The only time I ride like that is when I have to. [ most of the time ] Didn't feel any power loss but did notice oil almost off the engine dipstick after the ride. Dealer picked up the bike in early Nov. When the bike was started to put in trailer it started knocking. Shut off and pushed bike in. 18 oz's in crank case. Bike is coming home next week with the last and greatest oil pump and seal. When checked there wasn't any leak down to speak of and piston jets were intact. Asked dealer what the knocking was cause from....... answer.... Don't know. They never pulled the crank out, just the top end and cam chest. And to think, my warranty is up in February. Not much riding in Michigan during the winter. I know the Feuling vented dipstick didn't cause the sumping but it didn't stop the issue ether. Who knows, it might of been more sumping without it. For the folks that are interested in trying the vented dipstick, I can say it is well built and design along with an easy install but don't except great things out of venting the oil case. Didn't help with my sumping issue. Just hope HD will address this issue after the warranty sense there is a warranty history with this bike. Been riding Hd's for 54 years and just about ready to go see the Indian Stealer. I'm to old to ride in circles doing oil studies for Harley.
I'm not sure if this is the right spot for this, but I have a friend that just tore down his 2017 Ultra, 107" going to 124", and the piston oilers were loose. He's been doing a lot of research before he made his final build decision, and was aware of the sumping and transferring issues so kept an eye on both over that last couple years. No problems before tear down (he did install cam, tune, and oil tank breather last year), but he was surprised to find the oilers so obviously loose. It wasn't a "I'm not sure if they are or not" he says there was no question, and it may have even been sumping a bit, on the way to full on. This build is also getting a new HD oil pump.
I will post up his build results once finished.
Guys I want to share this information with all of you because I see you guys going back front with what pump to use and it's very simple. I've had 5 engines sump on me where I pulled out half a gallon from the crank case. I tried all different HD pump and they all continued to sump. This is with the latest pump and plate up to the very last 2019 models. The only solid fix has been the s&s pumps. Once I did the feulin because i got a stupid deal on it. I've only seen 117ci and bigger sump. I notice that they sump the most when ridding long distance at 90mph+++. Yes S&S just added the seal to the back of the pump and I've also tried it it works great, so did the original one from S&S. I've heard that the 2020 oil pump is completely different but I wouldn't wast my time on trying it out because I know that the S&S pump it's a solid fix. Also make sure you don't over fill your motor oil. Don't max out the dip stick.
Quote from: MakoHD on December 31, 2019, 03:29:08 PM
Guys I want to share this information with all of you because I see you guys going back front with what pump to use and it's very simple. I've had 5 engines sump on me where I pulled out half a gallon from the crank case. I tried all different HD pump and they all continued to sump. This is with the latest pump and plate up to the very last 2019 models. The only solid fix has been the s&s pumps. Once I did the feulin because i got a stupid deal on it. I've only seen 117ci and bigger sump. I notice that they sump the most when ridding long distance at 90mph+++. Yes S&S just added the seal to the back of the pump and I've also tried it it works great, so did the original one from S&S. I've heard that the 2020 oil pump is completely different but I wouldn't wast my time on trying it out because I know that the S&S pump it's a solid fix. Also make sure you don't over fill your motor oil. Don't max out the dip stick.
So you DID or DID NOT use the latest HD 2020 8 lobe oil pump before spending your money on the S&S oil pump???
Quote from: MakoHD on December 31, 2019, 03:29:08 PM
Guys I want to share this information with all of you because I see you guys going back front with what pump to use and it's very simple. I've had 5 engines sump on me where I pulled out half a gallon from the crank case. I tried all different HD pump and they all continued to sump. This is with the latest pump and plate up to the very last 2019 models. The only solid fix has been the s&s pumps. Once I did the feulin because i got a stupid deal on it. I've only seen 117ci and bigger sump. I notice that they sump the most when ridding long distance at 90mph+++. Yes S&S just added the seal to the back of the pump and I've also tried it it works great, so did the original one from S&S. I've heard that the 2020 oil pump is completely different but I wouldn't wast my time on trying it out because I know that the S&S pump it's a solid fix. Also make sure you don't over fill your motor oil. Don't max out the dip stick.
Not true in my case. At 5000 miles I discovered that my 19 special was sumping, carrying up to 24 oz of oil in the crankcase at all times. I tried the S&S pump and cam plate. Didn't help. I'm now building my 117 into a 128 and still haven't resolve the issue. I'm going to try the new 2020 pump that hd recently put out. Guys are having good luck with them.
So you're going to build a 128" when you know that there's already an unresolved sumping issue, one that's likely to get worse with a larger engine?? :scratch: You'll be kicking yourself when it really sumps and smokes your new engine...
Opening a can of worms is really the only thing holding me back from doing a big bore right now, otherwise I'd love to have more power. Currently mine doesn't sump ( knock wood ) and I don't want to create a sumper.
Well what choice do I have really but to tear it down and address the short comings as well as the imbalance of oil circulation. Not using the junk parts that came with the stage 4 so might as well get everything into tolerance and check all the known reasons of sumping while torn down. Btw that's an Internet myth that larger bores sump more. Have extensively done my research on this topic for a good year now and just as many stock motors have bit the dust. Riding style is also a myth at least in my case it is as well as many others. Problem doesn't go away on its own that's why mine is all torn down and any controllable variables are addressed before rebuild.
So it's a 2019? Don't you have warranty? Why are you pumping "your" money into it?
MAG19,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I’ve been there. My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump. In your case, since you already have the S&S, have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump? If not, I would make sure to try that in your rebuild. Also, the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have. If you’ve decided to ditch the S&S, which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate, the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option. Just an additional bit of info, I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder. Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders. No Sumping. Again, the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.
S&S do not sell the new "backplate", you have to purchase a new oil pump complete
Quote from: yobtaf103 on January 14, 2020, 11:27:36 AM
S&S do not sell the new "backplate", you have to purchase a new oil pump complete
Wow. That sucks! Thanks for the info! Yeah, I'd be pretty much done with them!
I'm having a strange problem. My bike is a 2019 FXLR 107", and it had the Stage 1(Bassani 2-1, SE Heavy Breather, & SE Pro Tuner w/canned map form Harley) installed by the dealer before I took ownership of it. 1350mi. Stripped outer comp. sprocket, dealer fixed. 1400mi. I(me) did an RS468 cam, Fueling HP+ CSP/oil pump, S&S pushrods, teppets, tappet cuffs, and TMax Tuner with WaveTune(Zipper's map). After I did this I added 4 quarts of oil, Redline 20w50 synthetic. Read nothing on the dipstick. Added more, checking every few ounces, stopped at 4.5qts or so. Rode it, got spray on the right side. Came back, sucked out some with vac pump, until no spray/leak. Rides good but ZERO oil on the stick, no matter what; jiffy stand, upright, ride it for 10 mins, etc.. Fueling said the vented dipstick will fix it. My factory oil pump has the o-ring, Fueling pump does not. Going to send my bottom end to Darkhorse next month, to set the foundation for a 128" build. Just doing bottom end, cylinders/pistons, HPI throttle body w/6.2g injectors, and a clutch. Anybody have any thoughts on the no oil thing? I was going to do the vented dipstick first, before tear down, hoping the lowers the pressure enough to stop the blow-by. Has anyone experienced this issue? What was your fix?
Too much oil caused blowby. With the vented dipstick your suppose to have at least between 3.5-4 quarts when using the dipstick. Are you reading the dipstick from the Feuling or the OEM dipstick? I use my OEM dipstick and warm up the engine. After riding for a few minutes I stop the engine while letting it idle for a minute or two upright. I put the OEM dipstick in and stand it up. It should read 3-4 dots below full. Also Feuling recommends using Valvoline VR1 Race Oil 20w-50 high zinc.
I took my 18 Limited in for a running light replacement. The Service Manager told he they had just received an oiling update for my bike including a new oil pump and more to cure a possible sumping issue. Said high mileage riders like me should do it. I got it done under warranty. Also said the trikes are of higher concern.
Quote from: Vision on January 14, 2020, 08:41:25 AM
MAG19,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I've been there. My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump. In your case, since you already have the S&S, have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump? If not, I would make sure to try that in your rebuild. Also, the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have. If you've decided to ditch the S&S, which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate, the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option. Just an additional bit of info, I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder. Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders. No Sumping. Again, the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.
Hey Vision thanks Im glad that you resolved the issue by using the fueling setup. Unfortunately the guys at S&S wont just send me a backing plate. (Shame on them!) My original plan was to install the fueling setup but then decided to go with the HD 2020 pump due to cost and the fact that there seems to be some success out there with it. So far I have torn down and started to rebuild the 128 and have found some ring seal issues as well as an ACR very loose in the rear cylinder ( shame on dealer tech when he installed the stage 4!) which may explain the problems going on. I will proceed with the HD pump and hopefully am successful going forward. Thanks for the input great minds think alike lol
Quote from: MAG19 on January 18, 2020, 07:54:20 AM
Quote from: Vision on January 14, 2020, 08:41:25 AM
MAG19,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I’ve been there. My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump. In your case, since you already have the S&S, have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump? If not, I would make sure to try that in your rebuild. Also, the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have. If you’ve decided to ditch the S&S, which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate, the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option. Just an additional bit of info, I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder. Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders. No Sumping. Again, the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.
Hey Vision thanks Im glad that you resolved the issue by using the fueling setup. Unfortunately the guys at S&S wont just send me a backing plate. (Shame on them!) My original plan was to install the fueling setup but then decided to go with the HD 2020 pump due to cost and the fact that there seems to be some success out there with it. So far I have torn down and started to rebuild the 128 and have found some ring seal issues as well as an ACR very loose in the rear cylinder ( shame on dealer tech when he installed the stage 4!) which may explain the problems going on. I will proceed with the HD pump and hopefully am successful going forward. Thanks for the input great minds think alike lol
Quote from: MAG19 on January 18, 2020, 07:54:20 AM
Quote from: Vision on January 14, 2020, 08:41:25 AM
MAG19,
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I’ve been there. My sumping issues were resolved by installing a Feuling HP cam plate and Oil pump. In your case, since you already have the S&S, have you installed the new backplate that S&S now offers for their pump? If not, I would make sure to try that in your rebuild. Also, the new 2020 Harley pump scavenges 40% more oil than the current pump you have. If you’ve decided to ditch the S&S, which may not be necessary with the addition of the plate, the new HD pump gives you a relatively inexpensive option. Just an additional bit of info, I salvaged my SE heads and clutch plates. Added AIM SDR lock up and slave cylinder. Swapped out everything else and running strong as a 124 with Rev Perf cylinders. No Sumping. Again, the silver bullet for me was the Feuling Setup.
Hey Vision thanks Im glad that you resolved the issue by using the fueling setup. Unfortunately the guys at S&S wont just send me a backing plate. (Shame on them!) My original plan was to install the fueling setup but then decided to go with the HD 2020 pump due to cost and the fact that there seems to be some success out there with it. So far I have torn down and started to rebuild the 128 and have found some ring seal issues as well as an ACR very loose in the rear cylinder ( shame on dealer tech when he installed the stage 4!) which may explain the problems going on. I will proceed with the HD pump and hopefully am successful going forward. Thanks for the input great minds think alike lol
That fact that S&S actually changed the design, but offered nothing to the buyers of their original pump annoys me. I’m not surprised. S&S changed their cam chest components on their twin cam LC 124 crate engine shortly after I put one in my 2014 Rushmore. I experienced major oiling issues with that engine, which ended up being its demise. My tech ruined several tools just trying to get into the cam chest and loosen the micro Allen or star bolts they used to hold the cam plate in. S&S offered no help when the engine went just after a few months past the end of the warranty. Oh, they’re help was to direct me to a vendor who had their new engines for the best price; but that’s another story for another time....
Reading accounts of out-of-round SE cylinders is exactly what made me go 124 with new cylinders after my bike Sumped. I had no confidence in the ring seal or the factory pump at that point. The loose ACR can definitely cause some starting issues for you; especially in cold weather. Good luck with everything. Would love to know how it all turns out.