I'm finding anywhere from 0.010-0.020" down the hole on the drop on 110 and 117 kits when using a 0.010" gasket on cases that have been bored so no o-ring groove left. I remember a tip from RBabos a long time ago about using Permatex aviation sealant to seal up leaky rear jugs on Softails. I've used it a few times and it works great. Any one tried using it instead of a gasket on bored cases? Got to be easier than cutting those steel liners ...
Why don't you use a regular case sealer like three-bond 1184 or yamabond.
I've often wondered how well anerobic sealer would work.
Used every we're in automotive sealing. Mostly between overhead Cam Cap's & head.
86
Quote from: tdrglide on October 30, 2019, 01:35:19 AM
Why don't you use a regular case sealer like three-bond 1184 or yamabond.
:agree:
when we were racing we never used base gaskets. we would use some honda bond on the spigot and then install. never had any leaks. works like a charm.
Loctite 518 or cut the barrels.
I've used 1211 Three-Bond several times in place of base gaskets. Never a problem, or leak. :up:
John
lot of complaints about Evo base gaskets
I don't have any
I used Three Bond 1104 with Hayden's pigtails
No leaks
Quote from: MadMaxUK on October 29, 2019, 07:28:34 PM
I'm finding anywhere from 0.010-0.020" down the hole on the drop on 110 and 117 kits when using a 0.010" gasket on cases that have been bored so no o-ring groove left. I remember a tip from RBabos a long time ago about using Permatex aviation sealant to seal up leaky rear jugs on Softails. I've used it a few times and it works great. Any one tried using it instead of a gasket on bored cases? Got to be easier than cutting those steel liners ...
I don't think I'd use it as the gasket replacement. Why not trim the cyls or level the decks if they aren't perfectly flat? At .020 down, there's some dimension error somewhere as in cyls or deck. If I was to go with a base sealant, no gasket 518 loctite would be my choice. I've been reading about Hylomar also but it never hardens and it's ability to stay put under crankcase pressure pulses, makes me wonder. It too, it seems would be best suited for a sealant with gasket rather then stand alone but I'm sure it's been done. Keep in mind, having the decks 99.9% level between case halves for the cyl bases goes a long way for sealing once the O-ring has been eliminated. The O- ring was forgiving in that regard and less critical for a perfectly flat base.
Ron
Nearly all sealants work when properly applied on a clean, deburred, oil-free surface.
Threebond is also Hondabond and Yamabond and famously excellent even at sealing British case surfaces. Hylomar is famous in aviation and also excellent. An old aviation case sealing method uses Hylomar and silk (not synthetic) thread. I've done that both ways on bikes and it worked fine.
Loctite flange sealants are the modern way to seal flanges and work great, but don't use them on derby covers or anything you can't easily pry off with no damage!
IMO there is only one proper way to do this. As Ron said, trim the cylinders and or deck the cases true. "Glue" is no more than a patch up job that will be prone to failure further on down the line. At this point the engine is not assembled and it is easy to accomplish. Wait a few years for it to start seeping and then it's a big a$$$$ job and a hassle if it happens to be riding season. I know what I'd do .... put the glue back in the drawer then measure and at least send the barrels out for machining to 0 deck spec. If you want to use a sealer, use it on the gasket as it is intended and most likely to be useful and long-lived.
My only concern with a loctite aerobic sealer is if you ever had to pull it apart again. Anybody know? Might it be a PIA.
Agree with kd if you are 0.010 or 0.020 in the hole
Bit if zero deck on a trial fit with no gasket, I wouldn't take 0.010" off to use a 0.010" base gasket
I would use a smear of Three Bond
Then again, if a customer bike, I think you should use accepted procedures.
Quote from: tdrglide on October 30, 2019, 10:19:32 PM
My only concern with a loctite aerobic sealer is if you ever had to pull it apart again. Anybody know? Might it be a PIA.
It comes apart just fine. I used it on my 113 and the 120. Similar to breaking the bond of the oem silastic sealant in effort.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on October 31, 2019, 06:48:39 AM
Quote from: tdrglide on October 30, 2019, 10:19:32 PM
My only concern with a loctite aerobic sealer is if you ever had to pull it apart again. Anybody know? Might it be a PIA.
It comes apart just fine. I used it on my 113 and the 120. Similar to breaking the bond of the oem silastic sealant in effort.
Ron
So u have used it Ron?
Been told by felpro sealing it's best for machine surface joints but I've never used it for HD.
I know all three Asian automotive & other manufacturer's use it under Cam Cap's on the machined surface next to the Cam seals. Never seen silicone. Silicone sealer @ corners of valve covers.
But they use Honda bond or similar on there crank case halves just like HD does on there halves.
86
Quote from: 86fxwg on October 31, 2019, 10:14:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 31, 2019, 06:48:39 AM
Quote from: tdrglide on October 30, 2019, 10:19:32 PM
My only concern with a loctite aerobic sealer is if you ever had to pull it apart again. Anybody know? Might it be a PIA.
It comes apart just fine. I used it on my 113 and the 120. Similar to breaking the bond of the oem silastic sealant in effort.
Ron
So u have used it Ron?
Been told by felpro sealing it's best for machine surface joints but I've never used it for HD.
I know all three Asian automotive & other manufacturer's use it under Cam Cap's on the machined surface next to the Cam seals. Never seen silicone. Silicone sealer @ corners of valve covers.
But they use Honda bond or similar on there crank case halves just like HD does on there halves.
86
I've only used it on case halves, not cyl bases. Very thin smear on each half, and I mean thin. You won't see product, just a sheen on the joint. My first experience was on two stroke aircraft engines where case must seal and stand up to the pulses and fuel. Every sealant has a purpose and actually all of the ones mentioned work. I just don't like rushing with air dry "Potty mouth", like the mentioned bond products that absolutely suck in humid conditions attracting moisture on the bond surface. Some like the 518, some don't.
Ron
My 124 TC has no base gaskets and is sealed with ThreeBond 1211. Many miles and many years later, no leaks.
I used it for the same reason (to get my squish right). When I built it, S&S only offered head gaskets around .050" (no Cometics then).
I left out the base gaskets & the pistons were then proud .020", so the .050" gaskets gave me the .030" squish I wanted.
Quote from: blackhillsken on October 31, 2019, 03:25:27 PM
My 124 TC has no base gaskets and is sealed with ThreeBond 1211. Many miles and many years later, no leaks.
I used it for the same reason (to get my squish right). When I built it, S&S only offered head gaskets around .050" (no Cometics then).
I left out the base gaskets & the pistons were then proud .020", so the .050" gaskets gave me the .030" squish I wanted.
Blast from the past, good to see you post again, Ken.
What was it that Rolls Royce used/uses instead of gaskets? That must be some good stuff.
Quote from: Evo160K on November 01, 2019, 12:00:57 AM
What was it that Rolls Royce used/uses instead of gaskets? That must be some good stuff.
Halomar.
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Aerograde-version-11.pdf
They state it's the aviation version (certifications matter in that world) of
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Universal-Blue-Issue-8.pdf
It's interesting because it doesn't harden and permits shift as the sealed components grow or shrink with temperature.
Quote from: farmall on November 02, 2019, 03:41:01 PM
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Aerograde-version-11.pdf
They state it's the aviation version (certifications matter in that world) of
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Universal-Blue-Issue-8.pdf
It's interesting because it doesn't harden and permits shift as the sealed components grow or shrink with temperature.
Curious, does it seep or wick out to the outside surfaces over time or does it stay clean in the joint area?
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on November 02, 2019, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: farmall on November 02, 2019, 03:41:01 PM
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Aerograde-version-11.pdf
They state it's the aviation version (certifications matter in that world) of
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Universal-Blue-Issue-8.pdf
It's interesting because it doesn't harden and permits shift as the sealed components grow or shrink with temperature.
Curious, does it seep or wick out to the outside surfaces over time or does it stay clean in the joint area?
Ron
Stays clean used lots of it on turbines, made for metal to metal. BUT it has to be stoned flat cleaned and wiped with acetone before applying a thin even layer. Cleans off with a wipe using a cotton rag and acetone. It can be used on a gasket but same thing need to clean it with acetone before use. There were a few turbine O/E's wouldn't let you use anything but. Like all the sealers mentioned the surface prep and cleanliness is the secret to it all and more is not better! Bob
Quote from: FXDBI on November 02, 2019, 06:08:25 PM
Quote from: rbabos on November 02, 2019, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: farmall on November 02, 2019, 03:41:01 PM
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Aerograde-version-11.pdf
They state it's the aviation version (certifications matter in that world) of
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Universal-Blue-Issue-8.pdf
It's interesting because it doesn't harden and permits shift as the sealed components grow or shrink with temperature.
Curious, does it seep or wick out to the outside surfaces over time or does it stay clean in the joint area?
Ron
Stays clean used lots of it on turbines, made for metal to metal. BUT it has to be stoned flat cleaned and wiped with acetone before applying a thin even layer. Cleans off with a wipe using a cotton rag and acetone. It can be used on a gasket but same thing need to clean it with acetone before use. There were a few turbine O/E's wouldn't let you use anything but. Like all the sealers mentioned the surface prep and cleanliness is the secret to it all and more is not better! Bob
Thanks Bob. Might pick up a tube and try it on a couple of tasks. Wondered about using it on the case halves of a v rod but not sure since it never hardens if it might promote more case shifting compared to the Silastic "Potty mouth" HD uses which does bond to some extent. On the other hand while 518 is great for big twin case splits, I fear it might promote bridging in a case like the v rod where bearing crush is key if not quick enough with the torque down. Probably overthinking the whole process and all are fine.
Ron
Ron. Metal to metal sealing is all about the prep, the surface must be flat with no high spots. You are only filling the voids it should still end up metal to metal contact with the sealant squeezing out allowing the metal surfaces to contact. Using to much is more common than not enough. I stone all surfaces and check flatness and fit before assembly. Final wipe and sealant just before final assembly. I usually use a disposable glove to allow me a finger or 2 to spread the sealant thin and even. Torque in appropriate pattern after the faces are seated flat in small steps to ensure evenness. Re-torque final torque after sitting a few mins. Wipe the outside exposed joint with appropriate cleaner. Done. Sealant choice is mostly personal preference. Has been my experience has I have used all mentioned in this thread and a few more with out leaks. Its all in the prep/details. Bob
Just FYI 1800psi steam turbines only used triple boiled linseed oil on the 1/2 joint to help the seal. Fills the voids and sets. Bob
Copper-Coat spray by Permatex works VERY WELL.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on November 04, 2019, 03:38:46 AM
Copper-Coat spray by Permatex works VERY WELL.
Probably would for case halves but due to over spray there would need to be a bit of masking tape involved. You don't want it on the outer surface or inner, just the joint. I've only used it on some gaskets so far. Namely those leaky uneven Shovel rocker box things. For gaskets, it's the cats ass. While I've never done it, nor intend to , even cometic head gaskets get reused with a flash of Copper Coat.
Everybody has their own favorite goop. A to b and good to go. :hug:
Quote from: farmall on November 02, 2019, 03:41:01 PM
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Aerograde-version-11.pdf
They state it's the aviation version (certifications matter in that world) of
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar-Universal-Blue-Issue-8.pdf
It's interesting because it doesn't harden and permits shift as the sealed components grow or shrink with temperature.
Can't believe how affordable it is
https://www.amazon.com/Hylomar-Aerograde-3-5-oz-Tube/dp/B00XLWV0HQ
/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=HYLOMAR+AEROGRADE+%28PL32%29&qid=1572958031&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Valco-Cincinnati-Hylomar-Gasket-Sealant/dp/B00CFH9GZG/ref=pd_bxgy_263_img_2/140-6097134-7994427?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00CFH9GZG&pd_rd_r=7ae9f171-1ce2-42b3-9692-e3a4ba643360&pd_rd_w=kMrcZ&pd_rd_wg=9eFXM&pf_rd_p=09627863-9889-4290-b90a-5e9f86682449&pf_rd_r=87GHXS2JQS1CJVEECRZD&psc=1&refRID=87GHXS2JQS1CJVEECRZD
Quote
While I've never done it, nor intend to , even cometic head gaskets get reused with a flash of Copper Coat.
I did it on a Shovelhead to make a weekend run long ago, and it lasted several years until the top end came down for normal maintenance. Gasket was blue Fel-Pro. I think it was this forum where I read there's a better copper spray but I don't recall the brand. :oops:
When I was drag racing a monster stroker Shovel (5" stroke & 3 13/16 bore) 40 years ago I had solid copper head gaskets custom made for it so they wouldn't blow running massive doses of nitrous oxide.
I always sprayed them with coppercoat before the final assembly & never had a leak.
~John
Quote from: jmorton10 on November 06, 2019, 05:19:05 PM
When I was drag racing a monster stroker Shovel (5" stroke & 3 13/16 bore) 40 years ago I had solid copper head gaskets custom made for it so they wouldn't blow running massive doses of nitrous oxide.
I always sprayed them with coppercoat before the final assembly & never had a leak.
~John
I never built a hd motor yet but years ago when I worked for GM as a line mechanic I used that sealer on head gaskets and never had a problem . I always liked the sealer because I never had any problems using it . I got tired of warranty work and my friends making a lot more money than me in the oil field so I moved on . Glad I did also
Quote from: 1workinman on November 12, 2019, 05:20:21 PM
when I worked for GM as a line mechanic I used that sealer on head gaskets and never had a problem . I always liked the sealer because I never had any problems using it . I got tired of warranty work and my friends making a lot more money than me
I was also a flat/rate GM line mechanic for 10 years back in the day, that was my first job out of high school (in 1969). Glad I got out of it also.
~John
Loctite product has some substance that actually takes up space. Very fine media in with the anaerobic gel.
On our AHDRA Mod Class 108" bike, we ran neither a base gasket, or a cylinder head gasket.
Fact.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on December 11, 2019, 04:15:39 AM
On our AHDRA Mod Class 108" bike, we ran neither a base gasket, or a cylinder head gasket.
Fact.
No head gasket is actually not that uncommon. Air cooled VW had metal to metal. Early ones used a copper O ring but they did away with it later on. On the Rotax I use to fly with, all it had was an O-ring for sealing, with metal to metal contact. Neither of these methods caused issues.
Ron
Quote from: jmorton10 on November 13, 2019, 01:43:21 AM
Quote from: 1workinman on November 12, 2019, 05:20:21 PM
when I worked for GM as a line mechanic I used that sealer on head gaskets and never had a problem . I always liked the sealer because I never had any problems using it . I got tired of warranty work and my friends making a lot more money than me
I was also a flat/rate GM line mechanic for 10 years back in the day, that was my first job out of high school (in 1969). Glad I got out of it also.
~John
A friend of mine is a life long GM mechanic. He is a great mechanic, and fast too. He also has a shop at home and also does work there. He works four ten hour days so he has three days off every week so he moonlights on his days off. 4-5 years ago the shop manager was giving him crap about his moonlighting and told him he had to quit working on the side. He didn't. Next thing he gets called up to the owner's office. The owner of the dealership told him if he didn't quit moonlighting he was fired. He told the owner he could not fire him, be cause he just quit, did he want two weeks notice? He still works there and still moonlights!
Quote from: rbabos on December 11, 2019, 06:37:44 AM
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on December 11, 2019, 04:15:39 AM
On our AHDRA Mod Class 108" bike, we ran neither a base gasket, or a cylinder head gasket.
Fact.
No head gasket is actually not that uncommon. Air cooled VW had metal to metal. Early ones used a copper O ring but they did away with it later on. On the Rotax I use to fly with, all it had was an O-ring for sealing, with metal to metal contact. Neither of these methods caused issues.
Ron
"Crush fit" on the heads, Ron.
I bought semi-finished cylinders, established a .038" firelip, and spun the STD heads in a Trock fixture, to have a .034" depth. .004" interference, and the head bolts drew the ductile iron lip, into the aluminum head.
Even at 17.25 cr, it never had an issue.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on December 13, 2019, 03:43:01 AM
Quote from: rbabos on December 11, 2019, 06:37:44 AM
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on December 11, 2019, 04:15:39 AM
On our AHDRA Mod Class 108" bike, we ran neither a base gasket, or a cylinder head gasket.
Fact.
No head gasket is actually not that uncommon. Air cooled VW had metal to metal. Early ones used a copper O ring but they did away with it later on. On the Rotax I use to fly with, all it had was an O-ring for sealing, with metal to metal contact. Neither of these methods caused issues.
Ron
"Crush fit" on the heads, Ron.
I bought semi-finished cylinders, established a .038" firelip, and spun the STD heads in a Trock fixture, to have a .034" depth. .004" interference, and the head bolts drew the ductile iron lip, into the aluminum head.
Even at 17.25 cr, it never had an issue.
Yup. That's the method. Get the ring too narrow and it will slowly embed into the aluminum rather then work the stretch studs as it should. Good to clear that up so the group don't start eliminating the gasket and trying to make the large flat surface work. :hyst:
Ron