So why is the 06 and later heads sooooooooo! much better than the 05 and earlier.
What`s your take on these heads...........then I`ll give ya mine.
In 100% stock form the 06 have bigger exhaust port and the floor is raised on the intake. After they have been worked probably the same or close to it.
Quote from: hardyheadscom on March 16, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
So why is the 06 and later heads sooooooooo! much better than the 05 and earlier.
I think that "soooo! much better" only applies to "as stock". Meaning if no additional work is being done, then the -06 castings are better. The stock -06 heads intake flow about 22cfm @28" more at .500" than the -99 castings, plus they include lighter valves and slightly better springs that can handle more lift. The exhaust flow more as well, but some might suggest too well. Once a pro like your self gets a hold of either, then all bets are off. :wink:
Quote from: Jeffd on March 16, 2009, 12:32:01 PM
In 100% stock form the 06 have bigger exhaust port and the floor is raised on the intake. After they have been worked probably the same or close to it.
\what does the raised floor do?/
well I am only guessing but I am guessing it helps with keeping the gas/air going in instead of getting pushed back out (reversion) increasing VE a bit by making an easier path into the combustion chamber. just a WAG on my part tho.
if I mind correctly, most porters would prefer that the floor was not raised.
here's some data on "as stock" TC head comparison:
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/wannabmayor/HTT%20hosted%20pictures/HDTCHeads_1.jpg)
truthfully, I don't think this particular author has a clue. :wink:
edited to add new information from the -99 casting and -06 casting heads tested on the same bench.
Quote from: Jeffd on March 16, 2009, 12:32:01 PM
In 100% stock form the 06 have bigger exhaust port..... After they have been worked probably the same or close to it.
I think you hit this right on the head! The exhaust on the 99-05 needs work to bring it to the same level of performance as the stock 06 and up. Both are the same once you go to a stage 2 or up. Not sure about the raised intake floor?
Cause everyone on HTT says so :gob:
Hardy
What is your take? What is your opinion?
My guess is that the raised intake floor improves the angle in which the gas enters the cylinder. The direction does change from horizontal to verticle. Maybe it also allows the gases not to favor just one side of the valve opening. :bf:
Ummm, the raised floor increases port velocity and the larger exhaust lets it get out....How am I doing? :wink:
Quote from: mayor on March 16, 2009, 12:58:20 PM
if I mind correctly, most porters would prefer that the floor was not raised.
here's some data on "as stock" TC head comparison:
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/wannabmayor/HTT%20hosted%20pictures/FlowStudy_1.jpg)
truthfully, I don't think this particular author has a clue. :wink:
Mayor, where did you find this? I would like to read the rest of it. thanks jeff
Check this comparison out -
http://bbhp.bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=91
Steve
Quote from: maineultraclassic on March 16, 2009, 05:24:36 PM
Check this comparison out -
http://bbhp.bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=91
Steve
Yeh.............. big boys said it pretty good.
Quote from: Jeffd on March 16, 2009, 04:58:23 PM
Mayor, where did you find this? I would like to read the rest of it. thanks jeff
I can check with the author, but I don't think it's ready for prime time yet. :teeth:
Reading that link, doesn't make the 05's sound so bad?
If you were to work over some 05's should they converted to the larger valve stem? Sounds like what they did to the valves and guides were to pick up a little flow and reduce weight. Is this not a good thing?
Quote from: hardyheadscom on March 16, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
So why is the 06 and later heads sooooooooo! much better than the 05 and earlier.
What`s your take on these heads...........then I`ll give ya mine.
we are waiting LOL. give us your take.
Quote from: Jeffd on March 16, 2009, 12:50:30 PM
well I am only guessing but I am guessing it helps with keeping the gas/air going in instead of getting pushed back out (reversion) increasing VE a bit by making an easier path into the combustion chamber. just a WAG on my part tho.
Very good.....the higher and rounder the floor as far a s HD heads go it picks up the air speed creating velocity thus VE. Velocity can be your enemy too. Air doesn`t like corners .Air can only hug a corner so long. then add fuel to the mix.Two things you can do.Radios the corner larger and angel back or split the port "wedge". CFM will continue in the higher valve lift but will suffer in the low lift flows which can be ok depending how much flow you have at low lift flow .There is a give and take with these 05 or 06 harley heads . The 06 `s raised port isn`t a bad thing. it`s easier to take away than add in this case.The 06 head `s floor causes allot of velocity . With what most of us call stg 1 this works pretty well. To about .450 lift with what I do .Then the crooked floor and lopsided port......... then add core shift "in most of the heads " gives me fits with the stock valve seat. The 05 port is smaller and more consistant in the shape........still add in core shift.
The 05 ex port requires a fare amount of time to prepare over the 06 but out come is the same.
If I had a choice I would want to start out with an 06....... less work on the exhaust. Intake seems to be the same time wise, outcome`s the same
Picks up the air speed where?
OK hardy your playing games again
This is how much I thought of my 07 heads. I sold them on ebay to all the people who think their so great and bought me a 03 set for half the price to have them ported. The exhaust ports start out to big for shaping them sometimes as you would like.
Quote from: POORBOY on March 16, 2009, 09:25:03 PM
OK hardy your playing games again
sorry had somebody come in to the shop.
Quote from: wfolarry on March 16, 2009, 08:10:10 PM
Picks up the air speed where?
The air pics up speed over the hump of the floor ....Like an airplane wing......... the faster the air flows over the top "hump" of the wing it causes lift.
I get a great deal of air movement by opening the mouth of the valve seat making the short side of the port steeper picking up air speed .
It`s time to go home I can`t remember if I Tboed OC Choppers or OC Housewifes tonight :pop:
"the faster the air flows over the top "hump" of the wing it causes lift."
And separation. The speed on the floor is already too fast. I don't try to make it faster. As a matter of fact after I re-shape the floor the speed on the roof increases. I must be doing something wrong. I even stay with the little stock valves in a lot of applications. 100/100 no problem.
And for all those guys that think the new heads are WAY better than the old ones I hate to be a heartbreaker but ask me who set a new world's record last year with those lousy '03 heads & that little stock throttle body on a little 95" bagger.
Bigger ain't always better.
Quote from: wfolarry on March 17, 2009, 04:30:34 AM
And for all those guys that think the new heads are WAY better than the old ones I hate to be a heartbreaker but ask me who set a new world's record last year with those lousy '03 heads & that little stock throttle body on a little 95" bagger.
Bigger ain't always better.
Larry, I did not read anyone saying they are "way better", but it is a fact that the 06 and up STOCK heads flow more/better than the 99-05. From a Stage 1 standpoint, that is better....marginally. To get the older ones to flow the same, you got to work on the exhaust port.
QuoteI hate to be a heartbreaker but ask me who set a new world's record last year with those lousy '03 heads & that little stock throttle body on a little 95" bagger.
Not to :potstir: but was this using untouched 03 heads? Trying to compare apples to apples.
Excellent thread. Thanks to all.
Max, Mayor, you two learn anything?
the faster the air flows over the top "hump" of the wing it causes lift."
And separation. The speed on the floor is already too fast. I don't try to make it faster. As a matter of fact after I re-shape the floor the speed on the roof increases. I must be doing something wrong. I even stay with the little stock valves in a lot of applications. 100/100 no problem.
More to it than meets the eye...... or the flow bench :up:
QuoteMax, Mayor, you two learn anything?
Yeah,
I like the Larries theories better than yours... :wink:
Max
(just kidding :teeth: )
Lots of ways to get there ... if any one person had the ultimate "hot setup" there wouldn't be any need for more than one source.
FWIW, I had a set of Mondello SBC heads that were considered to be the "best" for the application I had in mind. It was found thru test/tweak/tune that even those heads could be improved upon. Does that mean that Mr. Mondello didn't know what he was doing or the heads were crap? Heck no, it just means that the generic solution could be made better if one put the time and effort into it.
Good heads that are appropriate for the application are the starting point for any performance upgrades, IMO. Considering the cost versus benefit ratio it doesn't make sense to me why at least a cleanup or "street port" job should not be in the budget for even the mildest builds. JMHO
Quote from: wfolarry on March 17, 2009, 04:30:34 AM
I even stay with the little stock valves in a lot of applications. 100/100 no problem.
I can attest to that... :up:
Quote from: PanHeadRed on March 17, 2009, 05:45:47 AM
Max, Mayor, you two learn anything?
yep, I learned that Max likes to :potstir: other than that, yep lots of good stuff here.
Quoteyep, I learned that Max likes to :potstir: other than that, yep lots of good stuff here.
Mayor, You just figure that out? :teeth: Max
Quote from: MaxHeadflow on March 17, 2009, 12:53:00 PM
Mayor, You just figure that out? :teeth: Max
nope. :teeth:
I thought the raised floor actually slowed the air flow down a bit so it could make the turn into the valve. I thought otherwise the air flow would be traveling too fast to make the bend.
Hardy, you saying you make the short side steeper,no wonder you get so much tuburlance.
Is it the "raised floor" or the larger radius created by having more material? Or increased port volume? Or the smaller curtain?
Maybe it has less of a turn to make? Maybe it's a straighter shot at the valve?
Just wonder'n.
no wonder you get so much tuburlance
My thoughts. been there and seen that (and heard that)
I hear so much negative of the '05 heads, but to save some $$ I reused my '05 heads on my Ultra this winter, just milled them to 83cc. It really depends on what you are looking for in your build. Sure the '06 heads may get you a couple more HP at high RPM, but I am riding a bagger that sees 90% of its time at 2500-3000 RPM. I was not convinced I needed to drop more money into heads to achieve the results I wanted. Now after the build is done, and I have ridden my Ultra, I am glad I saved my money. The bike has all the top end HP I need, and more.
Quote from: PoorUB on March 17, 2009, 04:02:42 PM
I hear so much negative of the '05 heads, but to save some $$ I reused my '05 heads on my Ultra this winter, just milled them to 83cc. It really depends on what you are looking for in your build.
IIRC most of the negatives with those heads are valve stem seal related.
The most efficient port is a straight shot. However, the H-D port just can't happen like that. If you cut the floor down too much then you have the mixture hitting the valve at too much of an angle. The proper floor allows the mixture to be brought around and drop down on the valve to the greatest extent considering the curved port.
QuoteThe proper floor allows the mixture to be brought around and drop down on the valve to the greatest extent considering the curved port.
While this seems to be the theory.. I've followed that theory and it increases low lift flow but makes the port stall at higher lifts due to the differences in velocity when looking at a cross section of the port.. It seems that killing the flow at lower lifts by making the turn sharper helps at higher lifts. I think that the issue is that mass air flow is lazy and always want to take the shortest path...
Max
>air flow is lazy and always want to take the shortest path...<
Kinda, sorta, "path of least resistance".
>heads........the cost versus benefit<
Sounds like a excellent topic/title for another thread.
>>Sounds like a excellent topic/title for another thread<<
Probably could be a good thread. I don't think it would get very far before it would degenerate into something very different than it's intent ... I'll pass, I'd rather be fishing :>)
Awww, come on Ed, you'd make a great pivot man for that one.
Let's go to the general section, I LOVE talk'n fish'n.
There is a way to maximize the port and obtain laminar flow. When that happens there is not an either or situation airflow picks up across the lift range. When the flow goes turbulent is when problems arise. Just measuring airflow with very low resolution (low test pressures) doesn't always show these ugly animals to us however.
It is an interesting topic however better suited to a forum such as Gofastnews.com.
Here the guys generally don't want to hear the labor pains and all the grueling details they just want to get a part and bolt it on. There are the technologists among us though that really get off on the stuff.
All good.
For the bottom line guy
The 05 heads are just another year. They are not the best or the worst. For that matter IMO there is no windfall "BEST" year of OEM production head. They are different than a 00-04 and 06up. They are a transition year and ANY of the heads can be made to work a lot better and suit the application with time and money. They ALL benefit from tailoring the design to the intended end result. Sometimes this is just minimal and other times very evasive and costly.
Here's a question. My heads are the early (99-04)castings, with the later valves, guides, springs, seals, etc. Is this good, bad, or indifferent? I'm asking because I don't know.
Quote from: PanHeadRed on March 18, 2009, 06:00:01 AM
Let's go to the general section, I LOVE talk'n fish'n.
let me know if you need an expert's opinion. :potstir:
:teeth:
Dan
You have created a 05 head, simple as that. The 7mm valves are lighter but no airflow windfall. The beehives work fine. The 7mm valves are gone from any serious HP makers in my book. The higher lift cams need a bigger stem, better valve locks, and spring pads. When under .600 lift cams and less than or = 1.900 intake valves are the order then the 7mm stuff works well. Have even cut the tops for viton seals and put conventional spring cups under them. Then no more of the oil buildup under the seal hat.
So I guess the answer is if it is working well for you it is fine and sounds like you have duplicated the 05 configuration with better seals hopefully.
All good.
Might be of interest to the "technologists" out there:
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0812_cylinder_head_flow_testing/index.html
I haven't actually got to play with one of these yet, but I know someone who will be getting the setup and they let me play with their toys if i ask nice :>) Could prove interesting, a heads up compare of pitot tube vs the valve data may prove a point I've often made ... the old adage of making a measurement can often introduce an error that must be accounted for. Anyway, read and enjoy, or not.
No "fishtalk" on General, the threads on there are "fishy" enough already :>)
>Hardy, you saying you make the short side steeper,no wonder you get so much turbulence. <
Yep, I` bring it to the ragged edge with the stock HD heads. When ya learn how to control the turbulence the reward is CFM. Every head varies a bit .
Without my flow bench I couldn`t hit 150 cfm by .450 @10" using a 1.900 valve
Yep, I` bring it to the ragged edge with the stock HD heads. When ya learn how to control the turbulence the reward is CFM. Every head varies a bit .
Without my flow bench I couldn`t hit 150 cfm by .450 @10" using a 1.900 valve
Just pulled one off the bench (08 head) with 1.940 valve,Radius cuts flowed 296@ 600 lift, used to go back and forth from bench to bench til I finally figured out how to get rid of the tuburlance, seems to be worst with Radius cuts for me,I gott"er now, How come everything is so dam simple after you once figure it out.
There is a way to maximize the port and obtain laminar flow
Poorboy
This is what you have effectively done