HarleyTechTalk

I installed an Ultima ignition module (the nose cone mouted one) and can't get it to time correctly. 1992 Softail. I've got it turned counter-clockwise in the nose cone as far as the slots allow, and still can only get the timing to about 40 degrees advaced at 2Krpm. If it's in the middle range of the slots, it's up around 60 degrees! Bob C was over helping, and thought perhaps the cam was off by a tooth. I pulled the nose cone, and the timing marks are dead nuts on. The cam is keyed onto the gear, and both are Crane, so I don't think that can be the issue. The timing cup is the original one.

Any ideas? Run into this before?

-JW

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First, it appears as the breather gear is not set right. That or I cannot see the thing mark on the breather. But this has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

For the ignition timing, I think you are going the wrong way with the sensor. IME, the plate usually ends up almost all the way clockwise. Have you tried using the integrated timing light to statically set the thing and then adjusting off of that?

Also, I think the VOES wire is supposed to grounded when setting the timing, if not the timing will be all over the place.

Indeed the timing mark on the breather is not very visible in that picture. There is a letter "T" stamped on it up away from the gear teeth. It's covered in oil, if you look carefully you can barely see it. Not the best method that I've seen, but there is no other marks on the gear. A punch mark right at the tooth valley seems more sensible to me.

I agree with you, usually the plate is spun clockwise around 3/4 of the travel. I did indeed set the static timing with front cyl at TDC on compression stroke, and timing plate had to be turned as far possible counter-clockwise to get the red timing light to go ON. Then just a crack from full counter-clockwise it goes OFF. So pretty much same as what I found trying to dynamic time with timing light.

I did not ground the VOES, but in the hunderd or so times that I timed a bike with VOES, have never had to do that. At 2000+ RPM and no load, there is plenty of vaccum to close the switch. Also, the greed VOES light on the module is on, indicating it is in advanced mode. Besides, the problem that I'm having is that it's way too far advanced. If the VOES signal was not grounding, it would be 10 degress retarded.

I think the next thing to try is hang the stock ignition back on and see what happens. Gut feeling is that something is wrong with this module.

-JW

Quote from: JW113 on March 10, 2019, 07:54:52 PM
Indeed the timing mark on the breather is not very visible in that picture. There is a letter "T" stamped on it up away from the gear teeth. It's covered in oil, if you look carefully you can barely see it. Not the best method that I've seen, but there is no other marks on the gear. A punch mark right at the tooth valley seems more sensible to me.

I agree with you, usually the plate is spun clockwise around 3/4 of the travel. I did indeed set the static timing with front cyl at TDC on compression stroke, and timing plate had to be turned as far possible counter-clockwise to get the red timing light to go ON. Then just a crack from full counter-clockwise it goes OFF. So pretty much same as what I found trying to dynamic time with timing light.

I did not ground the VOES, but in the hunderd or so times that I timed a bike with VOES, have never had to do that. At 2000+ RPM and no load, there is plenty of vaccum to close the switch. Also, the greed VOES light on the module is on, indicating it is in advanced mode. Besides, the problem that I'm having is that it's way too far advanced. If the VOES signal was not grounding, it would be 10 degress retarded.

I think the next thing to try is hang the stock ignition back on and see what happens. Gut feeling is that something is wrong with this module.

-JW

Go back and read the thing instructions again. That VOES grounding makes a HUGE difference. Betcha. Try it.

Looking at right marks on the wheels? Or marked elsewhere?
See this in Instructions?
If the ignition has to be rotated an extreme amount or does not have enough adjustment to bring the timing in, the engine may be on its
exhaust stroke. Remove the ignition and observe the timing rotor. The timing pickup (near the switches) should be sitting in one of the
windows with the ignition installed . The shorter distance to the other window should be CLOCKWISE. If not, rotate the crankshaft 1
revolution and check again.

Grounding the VOES wire will cause the ignition to get total advance by 1500 rpm.

"Remove the ignition and observe the timing rotor. The timing pickup (near the switches) should be sitting in one of the windows with the ignition installed ."

Yep, checked that when I could not get the light to go on. I am absolutely 100% sure the front cylinder was on the compression stroke. I had the plugs out of both cylinders, and used a hose to blow into each. Front cyl could not blow into (both valves closed), rear cyl could easily blow into (one or both valves open).

Besides, it matters not. The static timing method is only to get it "close" so the bike will start. I have had it running, and using a timing light on it. The module is pegged counter clockwise, and I have to put 5 degrees of dail back on the timing light to see the 35deg timing mark in the hole. I will try grounding the VOES as Turbo suggested, but I still do not see how that explains why the timing is so far advanced. I hope that I'm pleasantly surprised.

-JW

The first time I ever used ultima ignition I mistakenly static timed it to to the advance mark.It still ran but seemed not right so I rechecked it . Make sure its on the TDC mark.

deleted post

TDC mark: small dot
35deg advance mark: Vertical line

Both are painted bright red.

Absolutely was on the TDC mark. I also use a plastic soda straw in the spark plug hole to zero in on TDC.

-JW

If the VOES is working correctly the timing should be retarded when the motor is not running. This has the advantage of easier starting.

Perhaps there is something wrong with the VOES or the wiring?

I expect you have the trigger cup installed with the notch correctly oriented? That notch can get smashed otherwise.
Gold colored cup?
Do not use the silver ones they have different windows. (they are for an early HD setup that did not work well)

Is the light working when setting it static?

edit
sorry see it does in your second post

VOES: Since these have a habit of developing a vacuum leak, I had tested it with a Mght-T-VAC and an ohmmeter. It holds 30" of vacuum, and the switch trips at 4". I'm pretty sure it's working as expected. The wiring is simply a wire from the VOES to the new module, with a spade connector in the path. Since the green light on the module comes on when the motor is running, that says the module thinks the VOES is grounding the sense wire.

The trigger is HD p/n 32402-83, and is gold. It was the original part that came from the factory. The index notch is not damaged, fits nice and snug into the slot in the cam.

Question: Aren't these Ultima ignitions basically a re-packaged or modified Dyantek 2000i-P? The switches and lights are laid out exactly like the Dynatek, and does not have a kick-start mode switch. I was told that to enable kick-start, you have to download the Dynatec software and reprogram the Ultima, using the Dynatec cable. Sounds like samey-samey to me.

-JW

Have you tried setting the timing with the lead from the module to the VOES grounded?

I cannot remember, does your ignition have a status indicator light on it? If so you could try to static time it like the dyna ignition.
https://www.wwag.com/step/pdf/123271.pdf

Quote from: JW113 on March 11, 2019, 08:57:08 AM
TDC mark: small dot
35deg advance mark: Vertical line

Both are painted bright red.

Absolutely was on the TDC mark. I also use a plastic soda straw in the spark plug hole to zero in on TDC.

-JW

Um, I believe your issue here! My 92 manual (section 8-9) Figure 8-4. Front cylinder TDC is the line, Advanced is the Dot.
Was opposite 80 and earlier I believe.

 
 

Cheech, here's a big ol' wet smoochie right on the lips!    >o<

What an idiot!!!! Spent way to much time lately checking timing on a shovelhead, and completely forgot they changed the marks for the Evos.

THANK YOU!!!

-JW

Yay, all better now. Of course! Use the right timing mark always make things run better.

Hat's off to you Cheech!

cheers,
JW

Quote from: JW113 on March 11, 2019, 06:48:58 PM
Yay, all better now. Of course! Use the right timing mark always make things run better.

Hat's off to you Cheech!

cheers,
JW

Thanks and welcome! 

Also just so it's known.  The ultima is manufactured by Dynatek.  The only difference is the timing curves are just a little bit different.  But unless your really trying to squeeze performance out they are about the same. 

Enjoyed this thread, some great wrenches on this forum and having just installed 2000i on a 1980 Shovel my first attempt TDC was on exhaust TDC no red led light up. Hat off to Cheech and  JW. 

Quote from: flhs90 on February 18, 2023, 08:51:58 AMEnjoyed this thread, some great wrenches on this forum and having just installed 2000i on a 1980 Shovel my first attempt TDC was on exhaust TDC no red led light up. Hat off to Cheech and  JW. 

An easy way to approach TDC compression is to remove the spark plug and timing plug then slowly roll the engine forward with your finger over the plug hole.  When you feel the air escaping you are almost there. Then you can watch for the timing mark as it enters the window.

Thanks KD never too old to learn a new mechanic's trick. I have been using the large soda straw after losing that tiny red straw shooting ether in plug holes and calling Dan Baisley who said run it straw will burn up, lol.
Now I am spending time wrapping my head around grounding the purple Voes wire.
Then a toggle switch, before spending more coin on a VOES unit. Anything for the old shovel to make it happy.
Not sure how the early Magnavox V Fire I shelved factored in separate advance/ retard curves if at all.

good thread


 

Quote from: nibroc on February 18, 2023, 01:10:44 PMgood thread