HarleyTechTalk

Technical Forums => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: grnrock on February 17, 2017, 02:31:46 PM

Title: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: grnrock on February 17, 2017, 02:31:46 PM
My 17 this is leaking oil into the primary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 17, 2017, 02:36:54 PM
 Sounds like warranty work.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on February 17, 2017, 02:38:29 PM
 :agree:

are you sure it's trans and not engine
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: grnrock on February 17, 2017, 03:34:46 PM
Ok yes this has happened twice on the last services
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 17, 2017, 03:47:45 PM
?
So you are saying the transmission oil level is dropping and the primary rising? I find this surprising considering the layout.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: grnrock on February 19, 2017, 10:05:33 AM
yes trans is low primary is over full
mystery to me also
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: grnrock on February 19, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
this is after dyno tuning so all you guys testing can you check your levels and get back to me
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 22, 2017, 06:31:38 PM
 I think I would have your dealership fix it after the first service. I wouldn't risk transmission problems later down the road.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: chuck8446 on May 27, 2017, 01:35:34 PM
I'm having the same problem, my dealer called Harley, they were told to do nothing, a tech. was coming out to look at it, in 4 to 8 days? :emsad: :emsad:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Wicked on May 27, 2017, 03:11:16 PM
Well the trans can't be pressurising or the oil would come out the clutch cable adjuster I'd say.
The mainshaft/clutch pushrod clearance must be suspect....as in to free flowing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on May 27, 2017, 04:15:47 PM
Clutch Pushrod would be the only way it could get in the Primary from the Tranny
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 27, 2017, 04:37:05 PM
Quote from: HV on May 27, 2017, 04:15:47 PM
Clutch Pushrod would be the only way it could get in the Primary from the Tranny
And the only way that can happen is if the trans was overfilled, above the pushrod hole.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FP on May 27, 2017, 05:18:10 PM
Quote from: grnrock on February 19, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
this is after dyno tuning so all you guys testing can you check your levels and get back to me

Wringing em out on the dyno seems to speed the transfer. Your not alone.

Steve@fullsac.com
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: chuck8446 on May 28, 2017, 07:28:54 AM
what was the final diagnoses of your problem?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 28, 2017, 09:12:23 AM
Is there an oil slinger on the pushrod? In the olden days, that was one solution.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on May 28, 2017, 09:40:23 AM
I just drained mine this morning for the first time, 1796 miles and it had 16oz in trans and calls for 28oz for refill, the primary drained 40oz instead of the 30oz the SM calls for on a drain plug drop only.

The next drop will tell the tale as the Schaeffer 75/140 I am putting back in the trans is green and the Formula plus is gold, this along with constant monitoring of the trans level will give the needed data to approach the local dealer with.

Quote from: rbabos on May 28, 2017, 09:12:23 AM
Is there an oil slinger on the pushrod? In the olden days, that was one solution.
Ron
I think you nailed it Ron, the Milwaukee Eight clutch release pushrod #37000318 does not have the slinger as earlier models, according to my parts catalog picture.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 28, 2017, 11:14:02 AM
no slingers on hydraulic clutches as there's no room for them
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on May 28, 2017, 11:19:28 AM
Upon refilling per SM specifications, that is by eye on the primary it took 27oz to bring it to the bottom of the clutch and 24oz to fill the trans to the "Full" mark on the stick with the bike on side stand. FWIW

Edited: Typo on trans fluid amount used.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: strobeen on May 28, 2017, 03:55:03 PM
I did all 3 holes today at 6200 miles. I did the trans and primary last at 2500. I thought it odd to add trans oil a while back at ~ 4500. I'm using Severe gear 75/140 in the trans and formula plus in the primary..

The 1st thing I did was pull the derby cover before I even warmed up the engine to change fluids. The primary was overfull. Maybe 3-4oz came out. Figure it had to be gear oil. No mistaking that smell of the severe gear oil in the primary. Looks like I may have gear oil getting in the primary. I'll talk to the dealer and see how they want to proceed.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 28, 2017, 11:10:59 PM
Are the transmissions venting ok during heat cycles? I assume they have a rubber one like the TC's.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 29, 2017, 05:23:36 AM
Sounds like a reason to wait for the 2018s if they address it.  Don't worry, they will come up with a retro fix on your dime down the road or someone will. Or someone will come up with an aftermarket fix , then MoCo will sneak a version of it into production. :banghead:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on May 29, 2017, 05:58:41 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 29, 2017, 05:23:36 AM
Sounds like a reason to wait for the 2018s if they address it.  Don't worry, they will come up with a retro fix on your dime down the road or someone will. Or someone will come up with an aftermarket fix , then MoCo will sneak a version of it into production. :banghead:
Ron

I was hoping you guys would buy a M-8 and start doing some testing so we would not have to wait. You know the Moco will be a few years and half dozen patch jobs if they try to figure it out on their own rather than copy someone else's fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 29, 2017, 06:04:29 AM
 I have one and I haven't had a bit of problems with it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on May 29, 2017, 06:15:35 AM
Quote from: hd06 on May 29, 2017, 06:04:29 AM
I have one and I haven't had a bit of problems with it.

You may never have, the MoCo tested these and did not find it so it could be riding style, type, or temperature related.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: festus on May 29, 2017, 08:09:17 AM
Quote from: FSG on May 28, 2017, 11:14:02 AM
no slingers on hydraulic clutches as there's no room for them

So is this possible in Hyd twin cams also?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 29, 2017, 08:27:11 AM
Quote from: festus on May 29, 2017, 08:09:17 AM
Quote from: FSG on May 28, 2017, 11:14:02 AM
no slingers on hydraulic clutches as there's no room for them

So is this possible in Hyd twin cams also?

no slingers in TC's either
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 29, 2017, 08:29:35 AM
I wonder if the Slave is acting like a pump and pushing the trannie fluid through the mainshaft when it's actuated.   :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 29, 2017, 08:59:16 AM
Surely there's an oil seal on the pushrod?

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 29, 2017, 09:14:22 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 29, 2017, 08:59:16 AM
Surely there's an oil seal on the pushrod?
No because the primary vents through the space between the pushrod and hole in the shaft, then out the trans vent.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 29, 2017, 09:22:18 AM
Quote from: FSG on May 29, 2017, 08:29:35 AM
I wonder if the Slave is acting like a pump and pushing the trannie fluid through the mainshaft when it's actuated.   :scratch:
Should be a 0 clearance situation but the oil capture area might be higher area then say the ramp method. Hard to say for sure but any oil hanging around could be screwed in through the shaft space. Does it happen while just cruising or is it a longer term effect when the pushrod and shaft operate at different rpms, like when the clutch is pulled in and one or other acting like a lead screw pulling fluid in? You know, like those spiral groove oil seals but a reverse effect in this case. How smooth is the hole inside the main shaft and the spiral line direction from drilling it? Just cool "Potty mouth" to ponder. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on May 29, 2017, 12:33:10 PM
Well a good look at what is different between the M-8 parts and the parts from the previous thirty years that HD has run it this way.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 29, 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 29, 2017, 12:33:10 PM
Well a good look at what is different between the M-8 parts and the parts from the previous thirty years that HD has run it this way.
In that case we would have been reading this 30 years aga, right? Something is different. Haven't heard of any other models with hydro clutch doing it, or they never noticed.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on May 29, 2017, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: rbabos on May 29, 2017, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 29, 2017, 12:33:10 PM
Well a good look at what is different between the M-8 parts and the parts from the previous thirty years that HD has run it this way.
In that case we would have been reading this 30 years aga, right? Something is different. Haven't heard of any other models with hydro clutch doing it, or they never noticed.
Ron

So we agree, just have to find out what it is.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 29, 2017, 01:36:44 PM
2016 > 2017 the secondary hydraulic clutch activator and right bearing housing are different P/N's: http://www.docshd.com/OEMpartfinder.htm (http://www.docshd.com/OEMpartfinder.htm) Plus 2 P/N's for 2017.

I might be FOS so check it out.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on May 30, 2017, 03:44:52 AM
Just checked my Gearbox oil, cold on side stand as per the book. dip stick shows zero oil.
Personally, I am pissed off.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on May 30, 2017, 04:36:23 AM
Yeah checked mine today with 5000ks on it Primary High and the gearbox at the add mark, I have emailed my dealer and will see what he comes back with. I will drain next week on days of and measure what comes out fill and monitor again
here is a couple of pics

(http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj574/MMVTwin/IMAG1029_zpszzwawb2f.jpg) (http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/MMVTwin/media/IMAG1029_zpszzwawb2f.jpg.html)

(http://i.imgur.com/TJyTYie.png)


(http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj574/MMVTwin/IMAG1047_zpshgbwp63n.jpg) (http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/MMVTwin/media/IMAG1047_zpshgbwp63n.jpg.html)

(http://i.imgur.com/tguiUFO.png)


EDIT: imgur rather than photobucket
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 30, 2017, 09:52:21 AM
HD Forums has a thread on this under their M8 section. SC says it's so and rpm related.

Gary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 30, 2017, 12:37:06 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 30, 2017, 09:52:21 AM
HD Forums has a thread on this under their M8 section. SC says it's so and rpm related.

Gary
Yes, I saw that. He claims they will all do it if operated above 3500 rpms. The ones that seldom venture there will not see it , or very little. That's a BS way to operate a bike, no matter how one slices it. Fearing oil transfer always on the back of your mind on those 5+k shifts.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on May 30, 2017, 12:53:18 PM
Quote from: rbabos on May 30, 2017, 12:37:06 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 30, 2017, 09:52:21 AM
HD Forums has a thread on this under their M8 section. SC says it's so and rpm related.

Gary
Yes, I saw that. He claims they will all do it if operated above 3500 rpms. The ones that seldom venture there will not see it , or very little. That's a BS way to operate a bike, no matter how one slices it. Fearing oil transfer always on the back of your mind on those 5+k shifts.
Ron
Agreed 100%.

I called my local dealer and let him know what was happening, hopefully if enough of us complain they will do something to fix the issue.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: motorhogman on May 30, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
That stinks !  OK I give up.. Why does the trans have to vent through the primary.. I'd be drilling a hole somewhere top side on the trans and installing a fitting with a felt filter and small hose to vent the dang thing.. To simple ? 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 30, 2017, 01:51:51 PM
Mentioned above is that the primary vents around the clutch pushrod then trans and then out the rubber elbow. Don't know as I've never had one apart.

But what air goes out when the primary's heated has to come back when cooled. Any oil pooled nearby 'may' get sucked in.

Lowering the trans fluid can't be good...same for primary overfill and clutch plate soaking.

Somebody's in trouble who designed the new system as I've not heard of pre-17's with hydraulic clutches but w/o a slipper clutch unit having the problem.

Gary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on May 30, 2017, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: motorhogman on May 30, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
That stinks !  OK I give up.. Why does the trans have to vent through the primary.. I'd be drilling a hole somewhere top side on the trans and installing a fitting with a felt filter and small hose to vent the dang thing.. To simple ?
The M8 trans is vented through the top cover just like it's predecessor and the tube is the same size as the Twin Cam six speed, it is located in a different spot on the cover, but I can't see why that would matter.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: motorhogman on May 30, 2017, 03:35:06 PM
Quote from: Durwood on May 30, 2017, 02:11:59 PM
Quote from: motorhogman on May 30, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
That stinks !  OK I give up.. Why does the trans have to vent through the primary.. I'd be drilling a hole somewhere top side on the trans and installing a fitting with a felt filter and small hose to vent the dang thing.. To simple ?
The M8 trans is vented through the top cover just like it's predecessor and the tube is the same size as the Twin Cam six speed, it is located in a different spot on the cover, but I can't see why that would matter.

OH  OK   I just figured it wasn't vented.. So vent the primary separately and seal the systems from each other with this hydraulic clutch system..??

I know my 5 speed is vented on the left rear side of the cover.  Cable actuated clutch and has never had an issue.

Is there any reason not to vent the primary separately ?

TY,  I don't have an M8 but really do enjoy reading all the stuff You and others are posting here. Great info on the "new kid" on the block
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 30, 2017, 04:05:58 PM
Quote from: motorhogman on May 30, 2017, 01:36:53 PM
That stinks !  OK I give up.. Why does the trans have to vent through the primary.. I'd be drilling a hole somewhere top side on the trans and installing a fitting with a felt filter and small hose to vent the dang thing.. To simple ?
Primary vents through the trans between the pushrod and hole space in the shaft. All this air in and out from both primary and trans, from hot cold expansion and cooling of air vents at the top of the trans.
To run a form of seal on the pushrod, as seperate primary vent would be needed. Let's see what MoCo comes up with.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on May 30, 2017, 04:28:20 PM
A labyrinth Seal of some sort may work  :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 30, 2017, 05:16:04 PM
Something changed between 2016 and 2017. I see several parts of the transmission now have different numbers. Same for the clutch. Lots of dyno runs on both TC's and M8's at higher rpms so that's not new.

Maybe put a clear derby cover on and watch? Or at least regularly keep track of the trans fluid level.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on May 30, 2017, 09:09:23 PM
The problem is real,  I talked to Bill Greenrock that started this thread,  he knows what he's doing and has had to adjust his levels several times.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on May 30, 2017, 10:04:45 PM
Maybe Wes (Tattoo) could chime in. It is definitely an issue the MOCO will have to attend.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 05:20:01 AM
Look at the bright side. The trans dipstick now has a purpose.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 05:38:23 AM
The thing to remember is HD has used this vent system on all these bikes starting from the mid 1980's when they went to the wet clutch, so they just need to Identify what they changed on the M-8 that is driving oil from the trans into the primary at higher rpm.

It would be a step backward and I am not sure if there is room inside the M-8 clutch to do it but on the old dry clutch Harley's up through the early EVO's or when a primary belt drive is installed the clutch hub nut gets bored and a seal is installed in it. If this was done you would just need to vent the primary. It will be interesting to see if they figure it out or patch it by going backward.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 05:58:29 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 05:38:23 AM
The thing to remember is HD has used this vent system on all these bikes starting from the mid 1980's when they went to the wet clutch, so they just need to Identify what they changed on the M-8 that is driving oil from the trans into the primary at higher rpm.

It would be a step backward and I am not sure if there is room inside the M-8 clutch to do it but on the old dry clutch Harley's up through the early EVO's or when a primary belt drive is installed the clutch hub nut gets bored and a seal is installed in it. If this was done you would just need to vent the primary. It will be interesting to see if they figure it out or patch it by going backward.
In this case it would be going forward. :wink: The one and only shovel I worked on, I believe the pushrod had some form of sealing and the primary had it's own venting. Not a bad idea and in many ways the correct way to do things. Slinger also an option but might not be an option due to room. Clearly not worth a damn the way it is in the M8. Like you say, let's see what's coming up for the fix. It would need to be retrofit to the 17s if the 18s come standard with the update.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on May 31, 2017, 06:12:20 AM
For what it's worth, my oils were changed at dealer at 1000 miles. I checked te levels myself to ensure every
Thing wa as it should be.
Bike has now done 3000 mile and the gearbox oil needed 4.2 US ounces to bring it up to the right level as per the book.
Just saying.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 06:17:25 AM
The thing that gets me is just like the old comp sprocket, this has worked for over 30 years and they found a way to screw it up. This is not rocket science, I would like to see them actually figure out what change caused it and undo what they actually did to cause it. That would mean they understand how it works.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on May 31, 2017, 06:22:39 AM
My interest is in finding a solution! I have no investment in rubbing their nose in it even though I am not impressed.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 06:36:29 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on May 31, 2017, 06:22:39 AM
My interest is in finding a solution! I have no investment in rubbing their nose in it even though I am not impressed.

It has nothing to do with nose rubbing, often patching or fixing a problem without finding and fixing the cause will only lead to the next problem. The 07 comp sprocket is a good example of this, you could have spent hard earned money on every version they came up with until the finally sold something that worked.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 06:56:24 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 06:36:29 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on May 31, 2017, 06:22:39 AM
My interest is in finding a solution! I have no investment in rubbing their nose in it even though I am not impressed.

It has nothing to do with nose rubbing, often patching or fixing a problem without finding and fixing the cause will only lead to the next problem. The 07 comp sprocket is a good example of this, you could have spent hard earned money on every version they came up with until the finally sold something that worked.
With ideas from somewhere else for a solution, I might add. That only took 7 or so years.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 06:36:29 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on May 31, 2017, 06:22:39 AM
My interest is in finding a solution! I have no investment in rubbing their nose in it even though I am not impressed.

It has nothing to do with nose rubbing, often patching or fixing a problem without finding and fixing the cause will only lead to the next problem. The 07 comp sprocket is a good example of this, you could have spent hard earned money on every version they came up with until the finally sold something that worked.
With ideas from somewhere else for a solution, I might add. That only took 7 or so years.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on May 31, 2017, 09:14:08 AM
I get a kick out of it. They take parts that they have been using for years with no issue, change something slightly and something gets screwed up with the change.
Makes you wonder!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 09:23:59 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on May 31, 2017, 09:14:08 AM
I get a kick out of it. They take parts that they have been using for years with no issue, change something slightly and something gets screwed up with the change.
Makes you wonder!
What makes me wonder is how it was not noticed in all the development and miles of testing? Surely they did fluid changes somewhere along the time frame.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 09:46:38 AM
Once serviced few check trans and primary lubes. Why bother unless there's a visible leak? When time for change most drop the used and refill with new.

Who measures drained oil unless you have a special need to do it? Like now for M8 owners.

Any clutch incompatible lube in the trans will be a problem for some if it migrates to the primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 09:46:38 AM
Once serviced few check trans and primary lubes. Why bother unless there's a visible leak? When time for change most drop the used and refill with new.

Who measures drained oil unless you have a special need to do it? Like now for M8 owners.

Any clutch incompatible lube in the trans will be a problem for some if it migrates to the primary.
So, you giving MoCo a pass on that issue? I sure don't. No way in hell with claimed miles of testing that someone would have noticed it. The smell alone would give it away.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 11:00:29 AM
"So, you giving MoCo a pass on that issue? I sure don't. No way in hell with claimed miles of testing that someone would have noticed it. The smell alone would give it away.
Ron"

I don't get your questions. What's with this: "No way in hell with claimed miles of testing that someone would have noticed it."

Maybe you need to back up and think for a change.

And how about supporting this site?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Schex3x on May 31, 2017, 11:32:59 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 06:17:25 AM
this has worked for over 30 years and they found a way to screw it up.

Sounds like me in the early 90's at Mercury Outboard recertification classes, change the design and bring in a whole new set of problems, sad part was that 90% of the changes were to lower production cost only, not improve anything.

Well great, taking the M8 RG on a 5k trip in a few days, already slightly concerned about possible oil pump problems, now this, guess I need to dump the Spectro platinum 6 speed lube out of the trans and use formula+, unless the Spectro is clutch friendly, anyone knows off hand?

edit, just checked, no, but they have platinum STL(sportster trans lube), which is.http://spectro-oils.com/heavy-duty-platinum-stl/ (http://spectro-oils.com/heavy-duty-platinum-stl/)

probably just go with the formula+ for now
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 12:16:33 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 11:00:29 AM
"So, you giving MoCo a pass on that issue? I sure don't. No way in hell with claimed miles of testing that someone would have noticed it. The smell alone would give it away.
Ron"

I don't get your questions. What's with this: "No way in hell with claimed miles of testing that someone would have noticed it."

Maybe you need to back up and think for a change.

And how about supporting this site?
You are joking right? :wtf:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 12:33:07 PM
No joking and no pass for the MOCO. Let's try to stay on topic as this is important.

Gary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Schex3x on May 31, 2017, 03:13:21 PM
Nothing off topic here, evidently Moco's testing was not sufficient, you think they should have overlooked possible transfer issues?

I would think fluids drained should have been measured, and analysis should be routine during testing.

No way this  :turd: should of passed.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 04:42:39 PM
All I can assume is that HD expected the same results they experienced in prior years. We'll never know if they saw a different result will we? Especially as the new engine developed miles and reached production stage when return revenue $$$$ were anticipated.

Now maybe they'll alert dealers to check fluid levels prior to service to develop feedback on the problem.

I was planning to move to an M8 but will hold back until this is resolved. I've had 57 motorcycles and 14 HD's since 1960 and this is a new one for me.

Gary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on May 31, 2017, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 09:46:38 AM
Once serviced few check trans and primary lubes. Why bother unless there's a visible leak? When time for change most drop the used and refill with new.

Who measures drained oil unless you have a special need to do it? Like now for M8 owners.

Any clutch incompatible lube in the trans will be a problem for some if it migrates to the primary.

This rings true to me. I have the same A&S clutch in my '15 Limited Low. Have I had any problems? How would I know.... as said it never leaks so I never check it. My bike is out getting dyno tuned along with other things, I'll take a look when I get it back.  :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 09:05:52 PM
I admit to being more than lazy when it comes to checking motorcycle fluids unless the dealer does a service. Now I'm more motivated to.

With aircraft it's a different deal as they consume or leak oil in some cases enough to require monitoring.

I wonder if some volume vendor of HD's messed up a post-test mule build spec and now there's a problem similar to the oil pumps and coolers that were having problems? But maybe it's an OEM design problem just now being noted.

We may never know and as some suggest it will be incorporated as a new and improved feature for 2018.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on June 01, 2017, 12:13:23 AM
maybe 2019 models,,,,,,,,,,2018 models probably already made ready to ship out
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 01, 2017, 04:53:31 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on May 31, 2017, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 09:46:38 AM
Once serviced few check trans and primary lubes. Why bother unless there's a visible leak? When time for change most drop the used and refill with new.

Who measures drained oil unless you have a special need to do it? Like now for M8 owners.

Any clutch incompatible lube in the trans will be a problem for some if it migrates to the primary.

This rings true to me. I have the same A&S clutch in my '15 Limited Low. Have I had any problems? How would I know.... as said it never leaks so I never check it. My bike is out getting dyno tuned along with other things, I'll take a look when I get it back.  :idunno:
I had the same thought as you when Bike31 posted his reply. I am adding a trans fluid check to both pre and post dyno check lists.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 01, 2017, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: RXBOB on June 01, 2017, 12:13:23 AM
maybe 2019 models,,,,,,,,,,2018 models probably already made ready to ship out
Depends. They could very well been aware of it in the 17s and modified the 18s already. Production deadlines to market and all that stuff. A few more months we will know .
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hattitude on June 01, 2017, 06:21:17 PM

Does anyone know if the MoCo is even aware of this issue.....?

As mentioned, I don't think dealers have been giving the MoCo any feedback on this... who measures the fluid before dumping it when doing a change...?

Unless it's led to a failure of some type, they may be totally unaware of this.... This thread is the first I've heard of this issue...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on June 01, 2017, 08:46:27 PM
Quote from: hattitude on June 01, 2017, 06:21:17 PM

Does anyone know if the MoCo is even aware of this issue.....?

As mentioned, I don't think dealers have been giving the MoCo any feedback on this... who measures the fluid before dumping it when doing a change...?

Unless it's led to a failure of some type, they may be totally unaware of this.... This thread is the first I've heard of this issue...

I know my Dealer has informed the MoCo and he's waiting on a reply
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on June 02, 2017, 01:34:10 AM
QuoteDoes anyone know if the MoCo is even aware of this issue.....?

oh yes they know about it    :chop:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hattitude on June 02, 2017, 08:44:54 AM
Thanks......

Hopefully they will remedy the issue...  :missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: masterp on June 02, 2017, 03:36:08 PM
I'd like to know why it is happening too but I don't see this as much of an issue.  I guess if you take the facts and stretch them like ol' Armstrong then you could come up with some potential issue this could create.

In my mind a few unknowns that need to be answered come to mind.  How low does the oil level need to be in the transmission to cause an issue?  How high does the level in the primary oil need to get to cause an issue?  What effect does diluting primary oil with non-primary oil have on anything?

My take is that these bikes are great with very few issues.  This one may even get fixed at some point.  The older parts and bikes mentioned above all had their issues as well. 

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.  It's something to help fill the pages of a forum though and it's interesting to have so many interested in working to find a solution.  I'll wait on the edge of my seat.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on June 02, 2017, 11:12:48 PM
Dunno if this is helpful or not:

I have 46,000 miles on two '17 Street Glides and I have not had this issue. I check my transmission oil weekly on both bikes. I use M1 75W90 gear lube in the transmissions. I would definitely smell that oil when I do primary oil changes. Plus, my primary has not been overfull at any time. I change the primary oil every 10,000 miles.

What is different about my bikes?

Neither bike has been above 3,000 RPM except for a few brief top speed runs when I first bought them. Maybe 2-3 miles total? The fastest speed I ever run for prolonged periods of time is 75 MPH which is under 3,000 RPM. I shift at 3,000 RPM as well.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on June 02, 2017, 11:54:04 PM
SC on the HD Forum agrees...under 3500 it's minimized...over that it's accelerated to where reportedly all but ~4oz can in his experience remain in the trans when tested on a dyno.

High RPM's are the reported contributing factor.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on June 03, 2017, 12:46:29 AM
Quote..  where reportedly all but ~4oz can in his experience remain in the trans when tested on a dyno.

so the way I understand english this reads that if there's 24 oz in the trannie before the dyno workout, there will be all (24) but ~4 oz remaining in the trannie after the workout

so 24 - 4 = 20 remaining in the trannie

or did SC mean to say that ~4oz is all that will remain in the trannie after the dyno workout


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 03, 2017, 03:30:25 AM
I disagree with masterp. I am not in the habit of wasting my precious time trolling through forums for the hell of it. It's a real issue that evolved in the M8 and it needs to be resolved. The fault is clearly apparent and us M8 owners have put our trust and $ into this new product. It's us first round of owners that determine whether this product is worthy. I took the M8 over the twincam with the assurance of HD and their innovation. I want my bang for buck!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on June 03, 2017, 03:39:56 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 03, 2017, 03:30:25 AM
I disagree with masterp. I am not in the habit of wasting my precious time trolling through forums for the hell of it. It's a real issue that evolved in the M8 and it needs to be resolved. The fault is clearly apparent and us M8 owners have put our trust and $ into this new product. It's us first round of owners that determine whether this product is worthy. I took the M8 over the twincam with the assurance of HD and their innovation. I want my bang for buck!

I agree, something like this either works as designed or does not. This is technically an oil leak, it just leaks into the primary and not on the ground. If it leaked on the ground very owner would be outraged.

"If you are disappointed by our product, lower your expectations"  is not a good company policy.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Wicked on June 03, 2017, 05:27:10 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 05:58:29 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 05:38:23 AM
The thing to remember is HD has used this vent system on all these bikes starting from the mid 1980's when they went to the wet clutch, so they just need to Identify what they changed on the M-8 that is driving oil from the trans into the primary at higher rpm.

It would be a step backward and I am not sure if there is room inside the M-8 clutch to do it but on the old dry clutch Harley's up through the early EVO's or when a primary belt drive is installed the clutch hub nut gets bored and a seal is installed in it. If this was done you would just need to vent the primary. It will be interesting to see if they figure it out or patch it by going backward.
In this case it would be going forward. :wink: The one and only shovel I worked on, I believe the pushrod had some form of sealing and the primary had it's own venting. Not a bad idea and in many ways the correct way to do things. Slinger also an option but might not be an option due to room. Clearly not worth a damn the way it is in the M8. Like you say, let's see what's coming up for the fix. It would need to be retrofit to the 17s if the 18s come standard with the update.
Ron
Just an fyi Ron - back in those days the pri was designed to be a vacuum (lol!) as it collected motor oil for pri chain lube , and those who isolated the pri would normally leave the little drip hose open for a vent.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 03, 2017, 06:26:53 AM
Quote from: Wicked on June 03, 2017, 05:27:10 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 31, 2017, 05:58:29 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 31, 2017, 05:38:23 AM
The thing to remember is HD has used this vent system on all these bikes starting from the mid 1980's when they went to the wet clutch, so they just need to Identify what they changed on the M-8 that is driving oil from the trans into the primary at higher rpm.

It would be a step backward and I am not sure if there is room inside the M-8 clutch to do it but on the old dry clutch Harley's up through the early EVO's or when a primary belt drive is installed the clutch hub nut gets bored and a seal is installed in it. If this was done you would just need to vent the primary. It will be interesting to see if they figure it out or patch it by going backward.
In this case it would be going forward. :wink: The one and only shovel I worked on, I believe the pushrod had some form of sealing and the primary had it's own venting. Not a bad idea and in many ways the correct way to do things. Slinger also an option but might not be an option due to room. Clearly not worth a damn the way it is in the M8. Like you say, let's see what's coming up for the fix. It would need to be retrofit to the 17s if the 18s come standard with the update.
Ron
Just an fyi Ron - back in those days the pri was designed to be a vacuum (lol!) as it collected motor oil for pri chain lube , and those who isolated the pri would normally leave the little drip hose open for a vent.
Yes, I remember now. Maybe I wanted to forget. :wink:  I did a vacuum test for the primary on that bike. The vacuum was supplied by the engine oil scavenge pump IIRC, so the PR seal would be a must for that vacuum to take place.  It failed the test for several reasons and was converted over to the primary having it's own oil , rather then engine oil. It still had a seal for the pushrod though. A very simple mod to incorporate into the M8, I'd think with a small vent T'd into the trans vent for primary? Partial sealing would also reduce transfer to bare minimum yet allow breathing from current location. We'll see what they come up with. One thing for sure is, it can't be left as is.

Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on June 03, 2017, 07:15:10 AM
Would a heavier gear oil (75W140) migrate less?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 03, 2017, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on June 03, 2017, 07:15:10 AM
Would a heavier gear oil (75W140) migrate less?
Not really.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 02roadcling on June 03, 2017, 08:09:12 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 03, 2017, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on June 03, 2017, 07:15:10 AM
Would a heavier gear oil (75W140) migrate less?
Not really.
Ron

I filled mine with regular grease. :idea: So far, so good.

   cling
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 03, 2017, 08:38:38 AM
Quote from: 02roadcling on June 03, 2017, 08:09:12 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 03, 2017, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on June 03, 2017, 07:15:10 AM
Would a heavier gear oil (75W140) migrate less?
Not really.
Ron

I filled mine with regular grease. :idea: So far, so good.

   cling
Yes, but must be synthetic. Preferably Liquid Moly grease. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on June 03, 2017, 10:14:17 AM
Quote from: FSG on June 03, 2017, 12:46:29 AM
Quote..  where reportedly all but ~4oz can in his experience remain in the trans when tested on a dyno.

so the way I understand english this reads that if there's 24 oz in the trannie before the dyno workout, there will be all (24) but ~4 oz remaining in the trannie after the workout

so 24 - 4 = 20 remaining in the trannie

or did SC mean to say that ~4oz is all that will remain in the trannie after the dyno workout

..."If left to itself and you operate at these RPM levels for longer periods of time it will transfer all but about 4 oz out of the transmission."...

Mi Anglish Socks!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: masterp on June 03, 2017, 11:43:33 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 03, 2017, 03:30:25 AM...The fault is clearly apparent...
But is it really a fault?  That's my question.  There may be someone on here that has the inside scoop on what the design intent was and they just haven't weighed in yet.  Who knows, this oil transfer may also be a known average rate and it may be the reason the maintenance schedule was written as it was. 

If the two components were not already connected by an intentionally open pathway I may consider it a leak.  There is nothing I've read or seen yet that tells me this "fault" should not happen.  Just knowing they are connected by an open shaft I'd fully expect it to happen and would be more surprised if it didn't.

Aftermarket open and dry primary manufacturers are so confident that it is a normal occurrence that they design, build, and ship a sealed clutch basket nut to prevent the oil from leaving the transmission through the hollow shaft.  This has been the case since the beginning of the design.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on June 03, 2017, 02:09:45 PM
There were transmission part changes for 2017...housing metal and gaskets. I don't know for sure but maybe oil is being pooled or exposed where it can get transferred easier than in earlier designs?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on June 03, 2017, 02:58:45 PM
Bike31   :SM:   yes Engrish 

well my 2c is the gears on the mainshaft spinning in the forward direction are acting as impellers and thrusting oil toward the trapdoor bearing, through the bearing and against the clutch slave cylinder and from there through the mainshaft into the primary

now why didn't this occur in the 2016 models, they had a different clutch slave cylinder and o-ring, maybe the oil was thrust through the trapdoor bearing but due to the different slave it had somewhere to go other than into the mainshaft

I haven't seen one in the flesh for a while so like others I'll have to wait to see what the MoCo does

A sealed bearing in the trapdoor would fix the problem BUT who wants that   :SM: 

If I had an M8 I'd be modifying the side cover adapter so that the oil could get back into the trannie

(http://i.imgur.com/LfcIu9r.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on June 03, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
The secondary clutch actuator assembly for 2016 (37200023) was changed for 2017 to two P/N's...first it was 37200131 then superseded by 37200131A.

Maybe they fixed the oil transfer problem via 2017 actuator parts changeout and kept it a secret by bike S/N.  Speculation.

There's an O-Ring listed for 2016 (11900035) that looks like it seals the rim of the actuator to the inner side cover shown above. Maybe it's integral to the 2017 actuators but not spec'd separately?

Is there another seal around the actuator part that moves the clutch rod?

Source: http://www.docshd.com/OEMpartfinder.htm (http://www.docshd.com/OEMpartfinder.htm)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on June 03, 2017, 05:40:37 PM
I got my '15 Limited Low back today. It has (more or less) the same clutch as the M8. 7500+ miles since the fluid was changed, lots of spirited riding including some dyno time.

Trans fluid level is dead on full.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 03, 2017, 05:50:42 PM
Personally, I am seriously precious about My M8. I want it to be right. If it can't be at least as good as a twin cam then I don't want it , nor would I recommend it. It's issues like this that create doubt for me.
I think there is no arguement here. I appreciate you guys digging in to identify the problem. If it were any other vehicle eg Toyota, Yamaha BMW etc, they would be on to it. That's my experience of over 40 years.
Speaking of precious ' the wife backed over it with the 4wd on Wednesday '
Not happy !!!!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on June 03, 2017, 09:28:37 PM
If run hard enough, long enough, the trans/shifting will let you know there's a problem.

masterp,  your wasting energy arguing.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 04, 2017, 05:53:01 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on June 03, 2017, 10:14:17 AM
Quote from: FSG on June 03, 2017, 12:46:29 AM
Quote..  where reportedly all but ~4oz can in his experience remain in the trans when tested on a dyno.

so the way I understand english this reads that if there's 24 oz in the trannie before the dyno workout, there will be all (24) but ~4 oz remaining in the trannie after the workout

so 24 - 4 = 20 remaining in the trannie

or did SC mean to say that ~4oz is all that will remain in the trannie after the dyno workout

..."If left to itself and you operate at these RPM levels for longer periods of time it will transfer all but about 4 oz out of the transmission."...

Mi Anglish Socks!
This is what we are testing now, mine had 16oz in it after 1000 miles on the drum and 250 max power runs, that's a pint and if it stops there I will accept it and move on.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 04, 2017, 07:49:48 AM
HD forum gas 5 pages of discussion on this very subject.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on June 04, 2017, 08:15:14 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 01, 2017, 04:53:31 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on May 31, 2017, 08:06:46 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on May 31, 2017, 09:46:38 AM
Once serviced few check trans and primary lubes. Why bother unless there's a visible leak? When time for change most drop the used and refill with new.

Who measures drained oil unless you have a special need to do it? Like now for M8 owners.

Any clutch incompatible lube in the trans will be a problem for some if it migrates to the primary.

This rings true to me. I have the same A&S clutch in my '15 Limited Low. Have I had any problems? How would I know.... as said it never leaks so I never check it. My bike is out getting dyno tuned along with other things, I'll take a look when I get it back.  :idunno:
I had the same thought as you when Bike31 posted his reply. I am adding a trans fluid check to both pre and post dyno check lists.

Y'know, now that I think about it.... if this had ever been an issue with twin cams I think it would have surfaced by now. LOTS of people running the Pepto Bismol in their trans, with regular lube in the primary. If there was any migration seems it would be apparent at drain time.

  :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on June 04, 2017, 08:23:01 PM
Quote from: HV on May 27, 2017, 04:15:47 PM
Clutch Pushrod would be the only way it could get in the Primary from the Tranny

Ding, ding, ding. I think we have a winner here! I don't know how this could be fixed without a new pushrod being installed. This is going to be interesting as to the fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 05, 2017, 11:52:55 AM
The one I had on the drum on Sat did it as well..  One might also look at the machine work on the shaft.. IF the inner part is spiral cut in any way for some odd reason ( accidental) it will auger the fluid right on through..  It is going to be a huge issue as 5000 mile will have a trans with almost no fluid.. And I can see the fix now and they tell you that the trans really had no worn anymore than one with lube so its all good.. 

I think back to the clutch issue on the 14+ bikes that they are still dealing with problems.. and now we have a trans that pumps all the lube into the primary ..  What about the million mile testing that HD stated was done????   :hyst: :hyst:

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on June 05, 2017, 12:06:21 PM
I've always thought that if a company wants to truly test their new machines, give them to a cross section of regular riders. They will break things previously thought bulletproof.
I think test riders have a good idea of how to ride a motorcycle properly. Many regular riders do not. That will find odd weak points.
Throw in a couple cocktails (which test riders normally don't do...) and you add another dimension to the test, the "Watch this" dimension.

When testing automobiles, to simulate winter conditions the cars are put in a freeze chamber, started, run, maybe put on a shaker. Fine. But Mercedes (and others I'm sure) found out that that wasn't a real world test. When they were used in below zero conditions, the door handles would break off even when used properly. Oops.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on June 05, 2017, 12:38:11 PM
"What about the million mile testing that HD stated was done????   :hyst: :hyst:"

It was all done below 3500 RPM ;)
Had they done any steady state testing from 4500 and up? They might have found it before we did.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 05, 2017, 12:54:55 PM
Toyota just did a huge write up on a truck that had over 1 million real world miles on it.. Very good read..
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 05, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Put some dye in transmission fluid.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 05, 2017, 04:20:44 PM
Quote from: hd06 on June 05, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Put some dye in transmission fluid.

Why??
We know the tranny fluid is going into the primary. What will the dye solve? :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 05, 2017, 04:21:22 PM
Quote from: hd06 on June 05, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Put some dye in transmission fluid.
Why? It will just end up in the primary. :potstir: Crap, PoorUB typed the same thing,same time.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FXDBI on June 05, 2017, 05:14:16 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 05, 2017, 04:20:44 PM
Quote from: hd06 on June 05, 2017, 03:21:57 PM
Put some dye in transmission fluid.

Why??
We know the tranny fluid is going into the primary. What will the dye solve? :idunno:

Using the florescent oil dye that requires a black light to see might pinpoint the source if put in and run up for a short run then drained cover removed and inspected.  :scratch: stuff works pretty slick and wont hurt anything. Found a few machinery oil leaks with it.   Bob
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 05, 2017, 06:42:34 PM
 :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 05, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FXDBI on June 05, 2017, 07:02:45 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 05, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren

:up:     :pop:    Bob
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 05, 2017, 07:48:53 PM
Quote from: FXDBI on June 05, 2017, 05:14:16 PM
Using the florescent oil dye that requires a black light to see might pinpoint the source if put in and run up for a short run then drained cover removed and inspected.  :scratch: stuff works pretty slick and wont hurt anything. Found a few machinery oil leaks with it.   Bob

I am well aware of the value of florescent dye when you can not find a leak. In this case we know where the "leak" is already, so what value is the dye? There is only one passage between the transmission and the primary, through the hollow mainshaft along the clutch push rod.

The problem is not finding the leak, the problem is stopping it.


As for stopping it I wonder if just a simple o-ring slid onto the end of the push rod on the slave cylinder end would take care of it, if there is room. As the rod spins the oil would have a tendency to fling off the o-ring, stopping it from creeping along the shaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on June 05, 2017, 11:26:00 PM
 :up: :pop:
Quote from: Durwood on June 05, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on June 05, 2017, 11:27:07 PM

As for stopping it I wonder if just a simple o-ring slid onto the end of the push rod on the slave cylinder end would take care of it, if there is room. As the rod spins the oil would have a tendency to fling off the o-ring, stopping it from creeping along the shaft.
[/quote]

Had that same thought
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 06, 2017, 05:20:10 AM
Spoke to the dealer I do work with and they have repaired a few. They are going to get back with me on what it was the tech that did the work was not handy to talk with at the time
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 06, 2017, 08:53:02 AM
Quote from: RXBOB on June 05, 2017, 11:27:07 PM

As for stopping it I wonder if just a simple o-ring slid onto the end of the push rod on the slave cylinder end would take care of it, if there is room. As the rod spins the oil would have a tendency to fling off the o-ring, stopping it from creeping along the shaft.

Had that same thought
[/quote]


You cannot block that off. The primary has no way to vent pressure as it vents through the shaft into the trans and out the cover on top of trans.


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 06, 2017, 09:00:45 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on June 06, 2017, 08:53:02 AM
Quote from: RXBOB on June 05, 2017, 11:27:07 PM

As for stopping it I wonder if just a simple o-ring slid onto the end of the push rod on the slave cylinder end would take care of it, if there is room. As the rod spins the oil would have a tendency to fling off the o-ring, stopping it from creeping along the shaft.

Had that same thought


You cannot block that off. The primary has no way to vent pressure as it vents through the shaft into the trans and out the cover on top of trans.
[/quote]
True, but the right shape of ring will sling and vent when needed. Idea is to prevent accumulation down to a dull roar. Then transfer is minuscule probably not even measurable.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 06, 2017, 09:22:44 AM
It has been tried in the past where a guy installed a dry clutch set up or better to say one that can be used as dry or wet. He left the seal in the set up and it puked oil every where out the primary.  I do understand what you are saying but lets say that there is more to this than using a seal.  :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 06, 2017, 09:27:01 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on June 06, 2017, 09:22:44 AM
It has been tried in the past where a guy installed a dry clutch set up or better to say one that can be used as dry or wet. He left the seal in the set up and it puked oil every where out the primary.  I do understand what you are saying but lets say that there is more to this than using a seal.  :wink:
Agreed. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 06, 2017, 12:21:11 PM
I am not saying to seal the rod to the shaft. What I mean is if the rod sticks out of the main shaft enough to slip an o-ring over the rod, but there most likely doesn't have room.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on June 10, 2017, 11:36:05 AM
Anything more on the cause and fix?

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: YPD485 on June 15, 2017, 05:01:07 PM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on June 05, 2017, 11:52:55 AM
 
  What about the million mile testing that HD stated was done????   :hyst: :hyst:

I'm sure most if not all of that alleged million mile (which has to be bs) testing was done using hand built parts which were all hand assembled and were made to strict tolerances that they would never use on production engines.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on June 15, 2017, 05:23:38 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 05, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren

?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 17, 2017, 07:52:50 AM
On HD forum, under the M8 subtitle ' adding oil to the transmission', on page 20/21. An M8 owner has allegedly got the MoCo to come to the party with a new teansmission. Steve Cole is trying to fix the problem also.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 17, 2017, 04:14:46 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 15, 2017, 05:23:38 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 05, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren

?
Still in the testing mode with the modification we made and so far so good, I just performed another complete tune, with over 30 max power runs along with spirited riding thereafter and thus far no transfer.

As soon as we feel like we have it nailed down, I will post what we did.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 17, 2017, 05:02:20 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 17, 2017, 04:14:46 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 15, 2017, 05:23:38 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 05, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren

?
Still in the testing mode with the modification we made and so far so good, I just performed another complete tune, with over 30 max power runs along with spirited riding thereafter and thus far no transfer.

As soon as we feel like we have it nailed down, I will post what we did.
You can tell me. I can keep a secret. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Coyote on June 17, 2017, 06:45:28 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 17, 2017, 04:14:46 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 15, 2017, 05:23:38 PM
Quote from: Durwood on June 05, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
We believe we have found the source and fix for this phenomenon.

I will post pics and information as soon as we have verified our current findings.

Daren

?
Still in the testing mode with the modification we made and so far so good, I just performed another complete tune, with over 30 max power runs along with spirited riding thereafter and thus far no transfer.

As soon as we feel like we have it nailed down, I will post what we did.

You wouldn't want to let SC beat you to it.   :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Herko on June 18, 2017, 05:59:28 AM
Quote from: Coyote on June 17, 2017, 06:45:28 PM
You wouldn't want to let SC beat you to it.

Lol. He may end up taking the credit anyway...but that's ok.
As a famous president said..."You can accomplish much if you don't care who gets the credit".

Possibly, it was a bit presumptive to say a fix may be on the way. And, what's being tested to fix this on Durwood's M8 may end up being a nothing burger. However, testing will continue until certainty (or at least relative certainty) is realized. But, so far it's working. Either way, as many know, in problem/solution research...when testing the "solution(s)", much is learned along the way.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on June 20, 2017, 04:43:50 AM
I agree and would add that a true solution can only be achieved after the actual cause has been identified. Do you feel you have identified the what has changed in these transmission to cause this to happen?

Would you share the cause with us?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 20, 2017, 07:00:50 AM
 We made two changes to the system , I have had the bike for tuning and some other work. Thus far it has not transferred any fluid. i have spooled it up to 4500 and run it that way until engine temps get hot cool it down and do it again . Customer took it out over the weekend put just over 800 miles on it and its back as of monday. Level has stayed  right where it was when it left.

Now If HD has a fix that should be interesting as to how they approach it .  The dealers are very aware of this and thus far have stayed very quiet about it .. One dealer that I know has had  several customers of mine for tune take the bike in for this issue. I cold called that dealer they acted like they never heard of it  :hyst:  So best guess is they are being told to keep tight lipped about it.

My question is how much wear or damage has been done to these transmission with almost no fluid in them ???  Are we going to see a extra 2 years on warranty for the trans??  Same old deal .. its not a issue no harm came from it you will be ok ..

Makes me thing back when the rear cam plate bearings was fragging in the early TC engines.. Per the MOCO clean out cam chest replace one bearing oil change have a nice day !!!!   



Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Herko on June 20, 2017, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 20, 2017, 04:43:50 AM
...a true solution can only be achieved after the actual cause has been identified. ...

Fully agree.

Have yet to read what's been discussed about this on HDF. Maybe I should.

We're focused on a "probable" cause. Sporadic venting.
Hope to soon determine to be it the definitive cause. If not, back to the drawing board.
Have a few fix ideas for the venting issue.
One solution at a time to properly determine...regimented testing.
The simplest fix is implemented.
Has worked thus far via some serious Dyno and street operation.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 20, 2017, 08:01:32 AM
Quote from: Herko on June 20, 2017, 07:56:46 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 20, 2017, 04:43:50 AM
...a true solution can only be achieved after the actual cause has been identified. ...

Fully agree.

Have yet to read what's been discussed about this on HDF. Maybe I should.

We're focused on a "probable" cause. Sporadic venting.
Hope to soon determine to be it the definitive cause. If not, back to the drawing board.
Have a few fix ideas for the venting issue.
One solution at a time to properly determine...regimented testing.
The simplest fix is implemented.
Has worked thus far via some serious Dyno and street operation.
:agree: :agree:

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 20, 2017, 08:03:46 AM
I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 02roadcling on June 20, 2017, 08:43:26 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 20, 2017, 08:03:46 AM
I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?

Yes, they all do that. (It's how they learn.)

   cling
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 20, 2017, 08:51:11 AM
Quote from: 02roadcling on June 20, 2017, 08:43:26 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 20, 2017, 08:03:46 AM
I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?

Yes, they all do that. (It's how they learn.)

   cling
No "Potty mouth"? :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on June 20, 2017, 09:13:19 AM
Has anyone figured out what is different between these and the last twin cam parts?
The trans and primary have been connected in this fashion for a long time, the pressures should not have changed and with the trans having the vent I would think pressure from the primary would push fluid the other direction.

I would think it is a mechanical action sending fluid down the clutch rod and that comparing parts from the previous design would show what is causing it. Anyone have pictures of some actual pieces?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 20, 2017, 09:38:56 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 20, 2017, 08:03:46 AM
I wonder if techs from the MoCo read these forums?

I know their lawyers do!  :emoGroan: :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 21, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 21, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 21, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.
Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 21, 2017, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 21, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 21, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.
Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on June 22, 2017, 04:04:06 AM
Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 22, 2017, 04:40:41 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on June 21, 2017, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 21, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 21, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.
Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.
Now that's some serious fluid transfer.
Quote from: metaliser on June 22, 2017, 04:04:06 AM
Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   
Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better. :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 22, 2017, 04:52:33 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 22, 2017, 04:40:41 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on June 21, 2017, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 21, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 21, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.
Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.
Now that's some serious fluid transfer.
Quote from: metaliser on June 22, 2017, 04:04:06 AM
Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   
Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better. :up:

Remember,  Steve is developing calibrations not tuning. Big difference.  He's not just reving the bike through these RPM ranges,  he's holding them for extended times.  His bike's really take a beating for him to get us starting calibrations.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 22, 2017, 05:20:47 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 22, 2017, 04:40:41 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on June 21, 2017, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 21, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 21, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.
Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.
Now that's some serious fluid transfer.
Quote from: metaliser on June 22, 2017, 04:04:06 AM
Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   
Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better. :up:
Agree. But it must be accurate data. If in fact Coles findings are dumping all but 4 ounces out of the gear box, I find it hard to believe this much transfer can happen in the space between the pushrod and hole in the main shaft unless the space is being force fed with oil since there will be some primary venting to the gear box preventing some of this directional flow.  Almost wants to make one pull the pushrod, plug the pushrod hole and feed about 2 psi in the gear box using the vent line and verify if pushrod is the sole source. More data. One hell of a leak in any case.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 22, 2017, 05:28:28 AM
If the main gear inner seal leaks it leaks to the ground unless something has changed. I be only connection between the primary and transmission is the hollow main shaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 22, 2017, 05:36:29 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 22, 2017, 05:28:28 AM
If the main gear inner seal leaks it leaks to the ground unless something has changed. I be only connection between the primary and transmission is the hollow main shaft.
You are right. I was thinking unclearly. Modified my post so I don't sound like a complete moron. :embarrassed:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Herko on June 22, 2017, 05:46:44 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on June 22, 2017, 04:52:33 AM
Remember,  Steve is developing calibrations not tuning. Big difference.  He's not just reving the bike through these RPM ranges,  he's holding them for extended times.  His bike's really take a beating for him to get us starting calibrations.
I can tell you with certainty that Durwood does not just drive through the RPM ranges.

Some may tune by just "hitting" a given parameter, this is their choice. Go for it.

There's a lot of steady state time spent in a crosscheck method during one of Durwood's normal tunes. This is a part of a disciplined process to get the bike in an excellent state of tune...throughout the full range of operational parameters.
There's even more (a lot more) steady state time on his personal bike during a development assessment.

Granted, Cole's "bike" may be more prone to transfer fluid. But I doubt that the workout to test a solution is much different or less of a beating.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 22, 2017, 06:00:51 AM
Quote from: Herko on June 22, 2017, 05:46:44 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on June 22, 2017, 04:52:33 AM
Remember,  Steve is developing calibrations not tuning. Big difference.  He's not just reving the bike through these RPM ranges,  he's holding them for extended times.  His bike's really take a beating for him to get us starting calibrations.
I can tell you with certainty that Durwood does not just drive through the RPM ranges.

Some may tune by just "hitting" a given parameter, this is their choice. Go for it.

There's a lot of steady state time spent in a crosscheck method during one of Durwood's normal tunes. This is a part of a disciplined process to get the bike in an excellent state of tune...throughout the full range of operational parameters.
There's even more (a lot more) steady state time on his personal bike during a development assessment.

Granted, Cole's "bike" may be more prone to transfer fluid. But I doubt that the workout to test a solution is much different or less of a beating.

My post was in no way intended to criticize Durwoods method of tuning. Sorry you took it that way.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 22, 2017, 06:05:19 AM
Herko You mean I just can't flash through the cells and call it good  :potstir:  I do not think many understand ow much time it takes and the process involved to get the tune right in all of the cells .
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 22, 2017, 06:15:40 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 22, 2017, 05:20:47 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 22, 2017, 04:40:41 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on June 21, 2017, 05:38:32 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 21, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 21, 2017, 04:51:17 PM
So HDF has notes now on injecting dye into the gearbox with the intention of identifying it in the primary oil. This was varified in HD Germany and the owner is getting a new gearbox. This the second time this has happened according to HDF notes. Steve Cole ran his test bike with the dip stick out and hole covered with a breathable cover. it made no difference to the condition.
Why would it. It's a mechanical fluid transfer, not a pressure transfer.
Ron

Steve called me today and this was brought up.  He did some testing and has made improvements on his bike but hasn't tested it on others yet.  He didn't eloborate nor did i ask what he did,  He just said that his bike was pushing all bit about 4 oz. Into the primary while tuning three 4k and up RPM range.  He would have to stop and drain the primary and fill the trans in the middle of the tune.  Whatever he did didn't completely stop the problem but it got where he can get through the whole tune without having any of this issue.
Now that's some serious fluid transfer.
Quote from: metaliser on June 22, 2017, 04:04:06 AM
Friend of mine spoke to a tech from HD in Milwaukee and he said they feel it's only occurring in most of the bikes while being tuned on the dyno. They also feel it's only on the earlier bikes. He said they think it's coming in through the clutch rod if that makes sense. Fix for it, not yet unless you replace the trans.
A guy at Smith Brothers HD (East Tn.) had his whole bike replaced due to this issue, he ran the trans dry 2 times before the 1000 mile service and the HD rep. asked what would make it right, so a new bike was giving.  Also the mother-ship took the trade in back to Milwaukee for inspection.   
Again, that's way more than I saw on mine, I had 18oz remaining in the trans after several tuning sessions with 250 max power runs and close to 2000 miles.

The more data the better. :up:
Agree. But it must be accurate data. If in fact Coles findings are dumping all but 4 ounces out of the gear box, I find it hard to believe this much transfer can happen in the space between the pushrod and hole in the main shaft unless the space is being force fed with oil since there will be some primary venting to the gear box preventing some of this directional flow.  Almost wants to make one pull the pushrod, plug the pushrod hole and feed about 2 psi in the gear box using the vent line and verify if pushrod is the sole source. More data. One hell of a leak in any case.
Ron

He (Steve) Said that when he removes the derby cover south the bike upright on the dyno fluid dumps out.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 22, 2017, 10:55:42 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 22, 2017, 05:36:29 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 22, 2017, 05:28:28 AM
If the main gear inner seal leaks it leaks to the ground unless something has changed. I be only connection between the primary and transmission is the hollow main shaft.
You are right. I was thinking unclearly. Modified my post so I don't sound like a complete moron. :embarrassed:
Ron

Too late, we figured that out a long time ago!  :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 22, 2017, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 22, 2017, 10:55:42 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 22, 2017, 05:36:29 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 22, 2017, 05:28:28 AM
If the main gear inner seal leaks it leaks to the ground unless something has changed. I be only connection between the primary and transmission is the hollow main shaft.
You are right. I was thinking unclearly. Modified my post so I don't sound like a complete moron. :embarrassed:
Ron

Too late, we figured that out a long time ago!  :hyst:
That's two for you today. I will get even when you least expect it. :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on June 24, 2017, 09:48:23 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on June 03, 2017, 09:28:37 PM
If run hard enough, long enough, the trans/shifting will let you know there's a problem.

That is exactly how I discovered the problem. The transmission was problematic in shifting-all of a sudden.
I popped the derby cover off to take a peak and there was way, way more fluid in there than there was supposed to be. I  sucked out the excess to where it was supposed to be and buttoned it up. Took the bike out for a road test and it shifted normally again. While I was out riding I was trying to come up with a scenario as to where the excess Formula+ was coming from, and could not find one in my head. When I got back from testing, just for the hell of it, I checked my transmission level. Whoa! The Formula+ was way low on the stick. It was not until 3 hours later that I started connecting the dots in my head and wondered if I poured the excess fluid I took out of the primary back into the transmission would it be the correct amount. I did, and it brought the fluid right up to the mark on the X. That was back in early May of 2017. This happened again 3 weeks later, although not as much fluid was transferred that time. I have not had an M8 transmission apart yet so I am at a loss as to how the fluid is moving. The push rod seems like it might have something to do with it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on June 24, 2017, 01:17:59 PM
It's obvious that the trans oil is migrating to the primary...it just took some of the internet crowd 4-6 months to accept reality and stop arguing.

I have heard of guys pouring the excess primary oil back into the trans...I wouldn't do this as the primary is a dirty environment with a lot of clutch material debris that I wouldn't want in the trans bearings.

I would add new clean oil to the trans and save the excess primary oil in a jug to pour on the service desk at the dealer if they required additional evidence for a complete understanding.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on June 25, 2017, 06:52:01 PM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on June 24, 2017, 01:17:59 PM
I would add new clean oil to the trans and save the excess primary oil in a jug to pour on the service desk at the dealer if they required additional evidence for a complete understanding.

:up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HDDOC on June 26, 2017, 04:56:03 AM
I have a 2017 Tri and after reading this post I have been checking the trans and primary with only 1500 miles on the Tri I have no problems yet . Will continue to check it.  Thanks Doc
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: spook on June 26, 2017, 04:31:53 PM
So if HD runs Syn 3 in both the trans and primary how can one tell if the trans syn 3 is migrating except for the lowering of the trans level indicator?  Wonder what would happen if one was running a trans specific fluid like Redline and the migration occurred.  I am taking my 17 CVO in for a small oil leak tomorrow and will be interested in seeing what the chief wrench has to say about this issue. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 26, 2017, 06:21:22 PM
Quote from: spook on June 26, 2017, 04:31:53 PMWonder what would happen if one was running a trans specific fluid like Redline and the migration occurred. 

Formula + is HDs recommend tranny fluid, other than Syn 3, and they recommend it for the primary too. Unless your tranny fluid has some additive that will mess with the clutch there should not be any issue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 27, 2017, 01:20:59 AM
 So I guess nobody has figured out how trans fluid got in the primary    :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 27, 2017, 05:23:28 AM
Quote from: hd06 on June 27, 2017, 01:20:59 AM
So I guess nobody has figured out how trans fluid got in the primary    :nix:

Just the opposite, everyone knows how, we just want to know why.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: spook on June 27, 2017, 06:41:14 AM
I usually run Redline Shockproof  in the trans and Redline primary stuff in the primary.  Mobile one for the oil.  Will see what the wrench has to say about that combo....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 27, 2017, 01:50:10 PM
 OK fill me in how did it get in there.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on June 27, 2017, 01:55:33 PM
Quote from: hd06 on June 27, 2017, 01:50:10 PM
OK fill me in how did it get in there.

As stated a few times it travels through the clutch rod hole in the mainshaft. The question is why after 32 years of different versions of this system does it now transfer oil?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 27, 2017, 02:29:51 PM
Lets not forget too ....this is not in any way a huge issue with the M8s ...Aside from here ....Ive heard of NONE from any other Dealer Techs ...and have found none of our Customers with any issues  :nix: .....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on June 27, 2017, 02:43:32 PM
Quote from: HV on June 27, 2017, 02:29:51 PM
Lets not forget too ....this is not in any way a huge issue with the M8s ...Aside from here ....Ive heard of NONE from any other Dealer Techs ...and have found none of our Customers with any issues  :nix: .....

Are your techs actually checking levels before they drain fluids?

Does your dealership do thorough/extensive Dyno tuning?

Are you saying the MOCO hasn't informed the dealers,  bulletin or other?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 27, 2017, 02:50:21 PM
I just put one on the dyno for tomorrow mornings tune, his trans is at the add mark and his primary is up as well.  The dealer wasn't aware of this issue until I called them. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 27, 2017, 06:14:45 PM



Are your techs actually checking levels before they drain fluids?  Yes since the issue came up on here

Does your dealership do thorough/extensive Dyno tuning?  NO ..Are you saying only Dynos cause this issue ?

Are you saying the MOCO hasn't informed the dealers,  bulletin or other?  That is Correct
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on June 27, 2017, 06:29:55 PM
It's been noted RPM's cause the issue. Run it like Briggs & Stratton intended.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 27, 2017, 07:47:25 PM
Possibly Darren and co could give us some insight as to what they have been doing to remedy this fault.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 28, 2017, 04:59:06 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 27, 2017, 07:47:25 PM
Possibly Darren and co could give us some insight as to what they have been doing to remedy this fault.

The MoCo is  sending out complete transmissions, cases and all.  A little clearencing on the existing cases has greatly reduced the fluid migration is what we're finding on our testing. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: blackhillsken on June 28, 2017, 06:07:19 AM

The MoCo is  sending out complete transmissions, cases and all.  A little clearencing on the existing cases has greatly reduced the fluid migration is what we're finding on our testing.
[/quote]

What area have you been clearencing ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on June 28, 2017, 07:26:21 AM
we lost volume in the new case . Funny its not a issue from most dealers ... but hey here is a new trans .. That I like instead of saying well here is a fix and running ti low on fluid caused no extra wear .. That is great to hear
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 28, 2017, 07:46:08 AM
Gotta eat my words...guess what I found this AM ...YUP   Low Tranny High Primary   :doh:     
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on June 28, 2017, 08:17:28 AM
Okay, so what I'm thinking after all this is the trans vent is not venting so the trans is pressurizing. Time for a screamin eagle top cover with a high volume vent. For performance applications of course :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on June 28, 2017, 08:27:16 AM
Looks like the trans vent is a rubber hose with with a flat rubber piece that lands on the inside of the top cover. Has anyone tried pulling the vent hose out (from the inside of the top cover) and just run it open to see if it makes a difference. Maybe the flimsy piece of rubber hose is heating up and collapsing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 28, 2017, 11:25:25 AM
Quote from: Mark P on June 28, 2017, 08:27:16 AM
Looks like the trans vent is a rubber hose with with a flat rubber piece that lands on the inside of the top cover. Has anyone tried pulling the vent hose out (from the inside of the top cover) and just run it open to see if it makes a difference. Maybe the flimsy piece of rubber hose is heating up and collapsing.
If the trans isn't venting then neither is the primary. They would cancel each other out for fluid transfer. I'm not positive but the primary would be venting before the gearbox since it would heat the air up first inside and it's volume is greater. In either case a pin hole would be more then enough since air transfer is really slow relative to hot cold up and down time frames.
Ron
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 28, 2017, 01:27:53 PM
UPDATE ...Because we found one doing this we called the Factory ..they Have NOT Had a lot of reports of this and have NOT Replaced any Transmissions due to it ....so who ever told you different is feeding someone bad information ..I Tend to believe a Factory REP ..sitting in a Chair at the Factory


We have been requested to do a DYE Test to see if in fact the Tranny Fluid is migrating to the Primary Side ...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 28, 2017, 03:00:34 PM
Quote from: HV on June 28, 2017, 01:27:53 PM
UPDATE ...Because we found one doing this we called the Factory ..they Have NOT Had a lot of reports of this and have NOT Replaced any Transmissions due to it ....so who ever told you different is feeding someone bad information ..I Tend to believe a Factory REP ..sitting in a Chair at the Factory


We have been requested to do a DYE Test to see if in fact the Tranny Fluid is migrating to the Primary Side ...
I think that's been proven many times now.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 28, 2017, 03:29:30 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 28, 2017, 03:00:34 PM
Quote from: HV on June 28, 2017, 01:27:53 PM
UPDATE ...Because we found one doing this we called the Factory ..they Have NOT Had a lot of reports of this and have NOT Replaced any Transmissions due to it ....so who ever told you different is feeding someone bad information ..I Tend to believe a Factory REP ..sitting in a Chair at the Factory


We have been requested to do a DYE Test to see if in fact the Tranny Fluid is migrating to the Primary Side ...
I think that's been proven many times now.
Ron

Engineering bureaucracy at it's finest! One hole is going down, the other is going up, interconnected by one passage, but we still need proof!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 28, 2017, 04:37:58 PM
Bean counters want the Facts.. :hyst:  only other place it can come from is the Engine ...and that oil isn't going down....not sure what they didnt understand about that  :scratch:     :crook:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on June 28, 2017, 05:10:50 PM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on June 28, 2017, 07:26:21 AM
we lost volume in the new case . Funny its not a issue from most dealers ... but hey here is a new trans .. That I like instead of saying well here is a fix and running ti low on fluid caused no extra wear .. That is great to hear

I know 2 dealers that got new transmissions sent to them.  I'm friends with tech's at one of them.  I'll see if he can tell Amy difference in the cases
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borrec on June 28, 2017, 05:14:24 PM
Quote from: HV on June 28, 2017, 01:27:53 PM
UPDATE ...Because we found one doing this we called the Factory ..they Have NOT Had a lot of reports of this and have NOT Replaced any Transmissions due to it ....so who ever told you different is feeding someone bad information ..I Tend to believe a Factory REP ..sitting in a Chair at the Factory


We have been requested to do a DYE Test to see if in fact the Tranny Fluid is migrating to the Primary Side ...

On the other forum at least one dealer did the dye test to prove transfer and MoCo sent them a whole new transmission. Gentleman is waiting to get it installed and see if that cured it. Right hand not talking to left hand?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 28, 2017, 05:55:14 PM
You would think that Tech Support at the Factory would know whats been covered ...we will see that Happens with this case...... Im not a Tech from other sites ...or a guy that knows a guy that talked to a guy etc ...If they cover it Yall will know  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on June 28, 2017, 07:59:52 PM
What else is the factory mouth going to say...Houston we've got a problem (oh, that's another thread already)...and so they don't and likely deal with it on a per case basis.

It's not a problem or design defect until it costs warranty to fix, or creates a road hazard the NHTSA Feds require be taken care of. Two drops of that migrating trans oil on a rear tire and it'd be a recall.

In the meantime HD is dye testing and recapturing allegedly defective transmissions to explore. I wonder if they have run their dyno as well?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 29, 2017, 02:06:30 AM
It would be easy for them to check ......I recently got back from the M8 Factory Engine course ...after building our engines each bike was run on a  Factory Dyno and had to meet a minimum HP Reading for each Tech to pass ......those bikes had loads of runs.. ( 8 Bikes ) each course ....5 or 6 Courses .....looking back.. each bike had the primary covers off ( we had to check end play on cranks etc....) before each bike was run we checked Fluid levels......my bikes Tranny was slightly low ...enough that I had to top it up ...and we had not touched the Trannys  :doh:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 04:04:30 AM
Quote from: HV on June 28, 2017, 01:27:53 PM
UPDATE ...Because we found one doing this we called the Factory ..they Have NOT Had a lot of reports of this and have NOT Replaced any Transmissions due to it ....so who ever told you different is feeding someone bad information ..I Tend to believe a Factory REP ..sitting in a Chair at the Factory


We have been requested to do a DYE Test to see if in fact the Tranny Fluid is migrating to the Primary Side ...
Good info Brian :up:

Here's how my scenario went on my bike, and where we are today.

So that it was documented with HD I went to my local dealer after this thread started and had them put in a warranty claim, the factory rep told us to change the top cover gasket.

After removing the original and seeing that just a swap would not change anything, we decided to modify the new gasket with the 3/16" X 1" slot instead of just the 3/16" hole.

So far I have no transfer, and I have worked it very hard and will continue to do so until we feel sure it is completely cured, and if not we will go back to the drawing board.

You guys feel free to try it, it was easy to do. Here's the original gasket.

[attach=0]


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 04:05:47 AM
Here is the modified one.
[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borrec on June 29, 2017, 04:22:58 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 04:04:30 AM
Quote from: HV on June 28, 2017, 01:27:53 PM
UPDATE ...Because we found one doing this we called the Factory ..they Have NOT Had a lot of reports of this and have NOT Replaced any Transmissions due to it ....so who ever told you different is feeding someone bad information ..I Tend to believe a Factory REP ..sitting in a Chair at the Factory


We have been requested to do a DYE Test to see if in fact the Tranny Fluid is migrating to the Primary Side ...
Good info Brian :up:

Here's how my scenario went on my bike, and where we are today.

So that it was documented with HD I went to my local dealer after this thread started and had them put in a warranty claim, the factory rep told us to change the top cover gasket.

After removing the original and seeing that just a swap would not change anything, we decided to modify the new gasket with the 3/16" X 1" slot instead of just the 3/16" hole.

So far I have no transfer, and I have worked it very hard and will continue to do so until we feel sure it is completely cured, and if not we will go back to the drawing board.

You guys feel free to try it, it was easy to do. Here's the original gasket.

[attach=0]

Thank you. People like you and HV are the ones that make forums so useful to the rest of us.  :hug:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: blackhillsken on June 29, 2017, 06:05:56 AM
Durwood, is that a small notch cut into the cover web about an inch down from the top between the main compartment and vent cavity ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 06:12:21 AM
Quote from: blackhillsken on June 29, 2017, 06:05:56 AM
Durwood, is that a small notch cut into the cover web about an inch down from the top between the main compartment and vent cavity ?
No, the cover is flat, but if you look at the original gasket you will see where the notch is located in the trans case, that small notch and a slot in the lower part of the case is all that feeds the vent cavity.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: blackhillsken on June 29, 2017, 06:15:24 AM
Thank you for your testing
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 06:19:41 AM
Quote from: blackhillsken on June 29, 2017, 06:15:24 AM
Thank you for your testing
You're welcome, I hope if Herko and I don't find the solution, that someone else does.

Here's a view of the M8 trans with the cover removed.
[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 06:25:15 AM
Here is a pic of a Twin cam trans with the cover removed, note the two much larger holes that go to vent cavity? No half moon notch or smallish slot like the M8, and also the notice that the TC vent cavity is much larger. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but I thought it was noteworthy.
[attach=0]  
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 103eagle on June 29, 2017, 07:25:26 AM
Good Info, hope its this simple of a fix.  Durwood, what I assume is you feel it is a venting issue then?  How long have you run the bike with this test gasket?

Thanks

Eagle Out
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 29, 2017, 08:22:45 AM
Thankyou Darren.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on June 29, 2017, 08:23:47 AM
We will be testing the "Durwood" Fix as soon as we get another one thats doing this  :up: 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 29, 2017, 08:54:49 AM
Can't tell from the pics but are all three chambers sharing a common vent. The one closest to the trap looks to have been blocked off with the gasket until the slot was added. Note the notch in the second wall at the top to vent from one to other. One notch in the next top or the modded gasket might cure it if that last chamber wasn't vented. Somewhat unlikely since there should be openings near the bottom of each to allow fluid to find a common level throughout the case, in which case venting should still occur regardless to only having one common hole unless, no vent at top of the trap side and the two other chambers force the oil level higher then normal from the lower transfer area into the trap side section and higher then the opening of the pushrod hole.  So, what's the theory behind what the slotted gasket does?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 09:39:18 AM
Quote from: 103eagle on June 29, 2017, 07:25:26 AM
Good Info, hope its this simple of a fix.  Durwood, what I assume is you feel it is a venting issue then?  How long have you run the bike with this test gasket?

Thanks

Eagle Out
Not enough time on it yet to say this is the for sure fix, One vigorous dyno tuning session with over 30 max power runs and a couple hundred miles of very spirited riding. I have another set of mufflers on the way to test, this will add a bunch more max power runs along with the extensive Herko steady state tuning method.

Quote from: HV on June 29, 2017, 08:23:47 AM
We will be testing the "Durwood" Fix as soon as we get another one thats doing this  :up: 
That would be awesome and one of the main reasons I posted the pics. Herko said we need more than one test bike for this.

I can't take any credit as I am not the only one involved here, but thanks Brian. All I want is to get it fixed, and I am not a quitter.

Quote from: rbabos on June 29, 2017, 08:54:49 AM
Can't tell from the pics but are all three chambers sharing a common vent. The one closest to the trap looks to have been blocked off with the gasket until the slot was added. Note the notch in the second wall at the top to vent from one to other. One notch in the next top or the modded gasket might cure it if that last chamber wasn't vented. Somewhat unlikely since there should be openings near the bottom of each to allow fluid to find a common level throughout the case, in which case venting should still occur regardless to only having one common hole unless, no vent at top of the trap side and the two other chambers force the oil level higher then normal from the lower transfer area into the trap side section and higher then the opening of the pushrod hole.  So, what's the theory behind what the slotted gasket does?
Ron
Chamber's one and three vent through the half moon notch in the rib between one and two, also the small slot below it.

Chamber three has two passages that vent to the lower "common" part of the trans case, one in the very bottom of that chamber and one towards the top at the rear of it that goes at an angle back towards the rear of the trans.

When the moco suggested changing the gasket, that was when we gave the venting a hard look and this is what we came up with for now.

As I stated earlier, only with more dyno time and hard riding will we know if it is a hit or miss, but at least it can't be said we are not trying, and with more bikes involved the testing will be greatly improved.





Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 29, 2017, 09:59:57 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 09:39:18 AM
Quote from: 103eagle on June 29, 2017, 07:25:26 AM
Good Info, hope its this simple of a fix.  Durwood, what I assume is you feel it is a venting issue then?  How long have you run the bike with this test gasket?

Thanks

Eagle Out
Not enough time on it yet to say this is the for sure fix, One vigorous dyno tuning session with over 30 max power runs and a couple hundred miles of very spirited riding. I have another set of mufflers on the way to test, this will add a bunch more max power runs along with the extensive Herko steady state tuning method.

Quote from: HV on June 29, 2017, 08:23:47 AM
We will be testing the "Durwood" Fix as soon as we get another one thats doing this  :up: 
That would be awesome and one of the main reasons I posted the pics. Herko said we need more than one test bike for this.

I can't take any credit as I am not the only one involved here, but thanks Brian. All I want is to get it fixed, and I am not a quitter.

Quote from: rbabos on June 29, 2017, 08:54:49 AM
Can't tell from the pics but are all three chambers sharing a common vent. The one closest to the trap looks to have been blocked off with the gasket until the slot was added. Note the notch in the second wall at the top to vent from one to other. One notch in the next top or the modded gasket might cure it if that last chamber wasn't vented. Somewhat unlikely since there should be openings near the bottom of each to allow fluid to find a common level throughout the case, in which case venting should still occur regardless to only having one common hole unless, no vent at top of the trap side and the two other chambers force the oil level higher then normal from the lower transfer area into the trap side section and higher then the opening of the pushrod hole.  So, what's the theory behind what the slotted gasket does?
Ron
Chamber's one and three vent through the half moon notch in the rib between one and two, also the small slot below it.

Chamber three has two passages that vent to the lower "common" part of the trans case, one in the very bottom of that chamber and one towards the top at the rear of it that goes at an angle back towards the rear of the trans.

When the moco suggested changing the gasket, that was when we gave the venting a hard look and this is what we came up with for now.

As I stated earlier, only with more dyno time and hard riding will we know if it is a hit or miss, but at least it can't be said we are not trying, and with more bikes involved the testing will be greatly improved.
Thanks Darren for the detailed layout description.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Prostock on June 29, 2017, 10:05:51 AM
Good stuff Darren :up:

Scot
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on June 29, 2017, 02:32:50 PM
Had a guy on the HDforums run his with out a dipstick to test the venting theory and he still got transfer. So this is was my guess:

Has the piston for the hydraulic clutch changed in the M8's or the rod? Is the piston cutting off the ability to vent down the mainshaft when the clutch is disengaged? Creating a hydro lock if you will, then when the clutch is engaged the primary just sucks the fluid down the main shaft like a straw once the pressure is released. Like priming a pump.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on June 29, 2017, 03:43:46 PM
Interesting.  From what I've read it seems to occur during 'spirited' riding.  I'm guessing that more shifting of gears is occurring during the 'spirited' riding.  I wonder if that's why it happens for some people and not others.  Just a guess but maybe it has to do more with how many shifts are made rather than just riding at higher rpms.
I do not own a M-8, nor do I have any experience with dyno tuning/testing a bike.  I don't know how many shifts would occur during a tuning session versus how many shifts would occur on say a ride down the Tail of the Dragon.  Just a wild guess.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 103eagle on June 30, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
Here is the link to another forum, this same subject for those that are interested.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-9.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-9.html)

Eagle Out

:oil:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 01:58:08 AM
I don't have an M8 to look at but,

that hefty o-ring seals the slave to the inner side cover

(http://i.imgur.com/QS888q0.png)


but is the inside of the inner side cover RED RING AREA sealing

(http://i.imgur.com/NzySEZ7.png)


against the bearing housing RED RING AREA

(http://i.imgur.com/4VAIqJo.png)


hhmmmmm




Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on July 01, 2017, 02:03:05 AM
Interesting...that tapered splash area may be causing a slight turbine effect at high RPMs too  :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 02:55:15 AM
maybe a different gasket taking Durwoods idea to the extreme

(http://i.imgur.com/pqtzOa2.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on July 01, 2017, 03:59:34 AM
So pressure differential in trans case lower than at slave cylinder causing pumping action? Wonder if anything can be felt at clutch lever when this occurs?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on July 01, 2017, 07:09:38 AM
I know on all M8s  you can feel a pulse in the clutch lever every shift
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on July 01, 2017, 07:14:01 AM
Quote from: HV on July 01, 2017, 07:09:38 AM
I know on all M8s  you can feel a pulse in the clutch lever every shift
Yes you can, I have felt the pulse just riding down the road applying light pressure to the lever.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 01, 2017, 07:34:28 AM
Quote from: Durwood on July 01, 2017, 07:14:01 AM
Quote from: HV on July 01, 2017, 07:09:38 AM
I know on all M8s  you can feel a pulse in the clutch lever every shift
Yes you can, I have felt the pulse just riding down the road applying light pressure to the lever.
Not sure if they are using slip assist clutch but my vrod does that as well. It's the ramps in the clutch causing  some on/off locking feedback to the leaver via the slave cyl. Normal. Higher rpms in the Revoluton it will be more of a lever buzz then a pulse. In the slower revving M8 this pulsing can be some of the oil pumping effect in the pushrod area although a constant supply of oil would be needed so most likely there's a two part problem here. Shared oil in the v rod so it won't matter.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 103eagle on July 01, 2017, 07:36:16 AM
Funny but last night I posted in the other forum (listed above) that I was curious if there was a connection between the shift pulse felt in the clutch lever and oil transfer.  Reason it came to mind is some guys feel the pulse or feedback, some dont.  I do and I have oil transfer.  Some guys have oil transfer, some dont, some early production, some later.   Would be interesting to know how many that have transfer also feel pulse.  Its a longshot but just thinkin out loud.  Now if that is a connection, what is the difference?  Also the MOCO put out a informational sheet to dealers that they could give to customers to explain the slip/assist clutch and this feedback which they call normal.  Sorry but I dont have that sheet here, its at work. 

Eagle Out

:doh:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on July 01, 2017, 08:37:10 AM
Quote from: FSG on July 01, 2017, 01:58:08 AM
I don't have an M8 to look at but,

that hefty o-ring seals the slave to the inner side cover

(http://i.imgur.com/QS888q0.png)


but is the inside of the inner side cover RED RING AREA sealing

(http://i.imgur.com/NzySEZ7.png)


against the bearing housing RED RING AREA

(http://i.imgur.com/4VAIqJo.png)


hhmmmmm

It's not a sealing area.. The cover gasket will separate the 2 flat surfaces..
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 01, 2017, 08:52:23 AM
So you have seen the gasket and it does not cover that surface as well?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 12:51:36 PM
QuoteIt's not a sealing area.. The cover gasket will separate the 2 flat surfaces..

The M8 uses the 35260-06B  BEARING HOUSING,  I wonder what the difference is from the -06A 

TC and M8 use the same gasket

(http://i.imgur.com/jWnrHEo.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 01, 2017, 01:05:49 PM
One of the questions I and others raised on the HD Forum was the difference (if any) between the A (2016) and B (2017) bearing housings enough to create a new P/N. It might be revealing to compare and note changes if any. We assume the gasket thickness has remained the same between years?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 01:18:17 PM
it's not a new P/N, it's just a revision of some sort and can even be just because of a change of manufacturer   

QuoteIt might be revealing to compare and note changes if any.

:agree:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 01, 2017, 02:13:11 PM
I find it hard to believe a change of vendor alone would create a new P/N. Over time HD bids parts and manufacturers go away to be replaced by new. But ???

I do believe a comparison of A and B suffix parts would be worthwhile...same for trans shafts and slave clutch assemblies. There's also an intermediate part (release rod 37000217) between the slave and clutch rod that should be examined.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 01, 2017, 02:39:21 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on July 01, 2017, 02:13:11 PM
I find it hard to believe a change of vendor alone would create a new P/N. Over time HD bids parts and manufacturers go away to be replaced by new. But ???

I do believe a comparison of A and B suffix parts would be worthwhile...same for trans shafts and slave clutch assemblies. There's also an intermediate part (release rod 37000217) between the slave and clutch rod that should be examined.

Have you looked at the difference in the twin cam lifters from A to B to C ? Same part number and totally interchangable but not the same maunufacturer or country.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 02:40:37 PM
QuoteI find it hard to believe a change of vendor alone would create a new P/N.

like I said earlier it's not a new P/N it's a revision , most revisions are backward compatible, some aren't

release rod 37000217 was first used in the 2015 Hyd Clutches 

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 01, 2017, 02:47:08 PM
Quote from: FSG on July 01, 2017, 12:51:36 PM
QuoteIt's not a sealing area.. The cover gasket will separate the 2 flat surfaces..

The M8 uses the 35260-06B  BEARING HOUSING,  I wonder what the difference is from the -06A 

TC and M8 use the same gasket

(http://i.imgur.com/jWnrHEo.png)

Thanks for the gasket pic. Do you have access to to a list of the parts and numbers that are different in these areas? I have looked on line with little success. The bearing housing comparision would be a good start. I wonder if it somehow traps more oil compared to the earlier version.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 03:12:13 PM
just so there's no confusion as to what is a release rod and what is a pushrod, the release rod could have been named better 

(http://i.imgur.com/JA4cGDh.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 03:26:26 PM
QuoteDo you have access to to a list of the parts and numbers that are different in these areas?

Yes, it's all there online.

While I'm sure there are venting issues as Durwood is exploring, I can't help but think of the gears on both shafts acting like impellers and thrusting the oil toward the side door bearings and in the case of the rear bearing the oil can find it's way into the primary.  I've mentioned this earlier in this thread.

If I had an M8 I'd sure be modifying that Inner Side Cover so that the oil had an escape route other than just the gasket thickness.

Maybe a few drain slots

(http://i.imgur.com/oUIbbAj.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 01, 2017, 03:45:42 PM
Quote from: FSG on July 01, 2017, 03:26:26 PM
QuoteDo you have access to to a list of the parts and numbers that are different in these areas?

Yes, it's all there online.

While I'm sure there are venting issues as Durwood is exploring, I can't help but think of the gears on both shafts acting like impellers and thrusting the oil toward the side door bearings and in the case of the rear bearing the oil can find it's way into the primary.  I've mentioned this earlier in this thread.

If I had an M8 I'd sure be modifying that Inner Side Cover so that the oil had an escape route other than just the gasket thickness.

Maybe a few drain slots

(http://i.imgur.com/oUIbbAj.png)
Can't hurt.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 01, 2017, 04:21:56 PM
This may have been a design change to trap more oil and better lube the bearing, but as with most HD improvements come the unintended consquences.

Perhaps drilling a drain hole turning it from an oil sump into a splash system would help.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 01, 2017, 04:44:03 PM
If I had an M8 is be letting HD figure out out.  Last thing I would want to do is modify something and Give them a reason to void the warranty.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 01, 2017, 04:44:58 PM
We needs pics of Rev A and B for that part. It'd also be good to see the assembled position layup of the clutch and release rods and trans shaft end where allegedly the oil is being transferred.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 01, 2017, 05:16:14 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 01, 2017, 04:44:03 PM
If I had an M8 is be letting HD figure out out.  Last thing I would want to do is modify something and Give them a reason to void the warranty.

Well maybe just put an extra gasket or two on it ould suffice, but if I had one it'd be for riding not sitting in the garage waiting for HD to figure out a fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 01, 2017, 05:23:31 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on July 01, 2017, 04:44:58 PM
We needs pics of Rev A and B for that part. It'd also be good to see the assembled position layup of the clutch and release rods and trans shaft end where allegedly the oil is being transferred.

Nothing alleged about it, it is definately being tranfered and definately through the trans shaft the only question is why.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 01, 2017, 05:29:42 PM
Quote from: FSG on July 01, 2017, 05:16:14 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 01, 2017, 04:44:03 PM
If I had an M8 is be letting HD figure out out.  Last thing I would want to do is modify something and Give them a reason to void the warranty.

Well maybe just put an extra gasket or two on it ould suffice, but if I had one it'd be for riding not sitting in the garage waiting for HD to figure out a fix.

I guess that's why i don't buy the first year of major changes.  A gasket experiment is one thing. If possibly take an extra derby cover and drill a vent hole and run a tube in it as it wouldn't be permanent.  But I wouldn't do anything that would give HD an excuse.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 01, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 01, 2017, 05:29:42 PM
Quote from: FSG on July 01, 2017, 05:16:14 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 01, 2017, 04:44:03 PM
If I had an M8 is be letting HD figure out out.  Last thing I would want to do is modify something and Give them a reason to void the warranty.

Well maybe just put an extra gasket or two on it ould suffice, but if I had one it'd be for riding not sitting in the garage waiting for HD to figure out a fix.

I guess that's why i don't buy the first year of major changes.  A gasket experiment is one thing. If possibly take an extra derby cover and drill a vent hole and run a tube in it as it wouldn't be permanent.  But I wouldn't do anything that would give HD an excuse.

The last thing I would put any faith in is the factory warranty but if you are experimenting at this level and the factory beats you to a fix you can always replace the altered pieces with oem unaltered parts and your warranty will be fine.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 01, 2017, 05:43:44 PM
I'm aware of all the chatter re the clutch transfer above 4k rpm. Maybe someone with access to the parts can actually disassemble the TC and M8 trans clutch end and have a look at what's changed besides component numbers.

The assist/slip clutch units are not a new item and were used on some 2016's with the "A" side cover (mainly 110's). They are an option for 2014's and later with hydraulic clutches.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on July 02, 2017, 03:46:27 AM
 Just a though if a right hand thread was cut on the shaft if that would push the oil back in the trans.    :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 02, 2017, 07:59:19 AM
Quote from: hd06 on July 02, 2017, 03:46:27 AM
Just a though if a right hand thread was cut on the shaft if that would push the oil back in the trans.    :nix:
Careful now, then the posts will change to primary transferring to trans.  :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: sneakypete on July 02, 2017, 08:50:39 AM
I had the opportunity to talk to one of the guys at my local HD shop yesterday and I asked him if he had heard anything about this situation he said he hadn't yet. I told him he probably would at some point.  On the other hand if he did know about it he wasn't saying...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 02, 2017, 09:16:19 AM
Quote from: sneakypete on July 02, 2017, 08:50:39 AM
I had the opportunity to talk to one of the guys at my local HD shop yesterday and I asked him if he had heard anything about this situation he said he hadn't yet. I told him he probably would at some point.  On the other hand if he did know about it he wasn't saying...
To this day they probably wouldn't admit to compensator issues from 07-2013. They are sworn to secrecy.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 02, 2017, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 02, 2017, 09:16:19 AM
Quote from: sneakypete on July 02, 2017, 08:50:39 AM
I had the opportunity to talk to one of the guys at my local HD shop yesterday and I asked him if he had heard anything about this situation he said he hadn't yet. I told him he probably would at some point.  On the other hand if he did know about it he wasn't saying...
To this day they probably wouldn't admit to compensator issues from 07-2013. They are sworn to secrecy.
Ron

What compensator issues?



  :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 02, 2017, 09:52:53 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 02, 2017, 09:47:36 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 02, 2017, 09:16:19 AM
Quote from: sneakypete on July 02, 2017, 08:50:39 AM
I had the opportunity to talk to one of the guys at my local HD shop yesterday and I asked him if he had heard anything about this situation he said he hadn't yet. I told him he probably would at some point.  On the other hand if he did know about it he wasn't saying...
To this day they probably wouldn't admit to compensator issues from 07-2013. They are sworn to secrecy.
Ron

What compensator issues?



  :wink:
Exactly.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: sneakypete on July 02, 2017, 01:38:24 PM
Truth be told I had a suspicious feeling when I observed the "LOOK" on his face after asking my question...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on July 02, 2017, 04:21:50 PM
Quote from: rbabos on July 02, 2017, 09:16:19 AM
Quote from: sneakypete on July 02, 2017, 08:50:39 AM
I had the opportunity to talk to one of the guys at my local HD shop yesterday and I asked him if he had heard anything about this situation he said he hadn't yet. I told him he probably would at some point.  On the other hand if he did know about it he wasn't saying...
To this day they probably wouldn't admit to compensator issues from 07-2013. They are sworn to secrecy.
Ron

I have had that thought too. Ask a salesman about any well know issue and you will get, "I have never heard of that!"
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on July 02, 2017, 08:16:16 PM
I get the same from the local dealer when asked about any problems. Truth is, I'd expect the same at a Ford or Toyota dealer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 02, 2017, 10:22:55 PM
you might get the truth from someone out the back at the coal face but never from the sales floor or front office
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on July 03, 2017, 05:33:30 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 02, 2017, 08:16:16 PM
I get the same from the local dealer when asked about any problems. Truth is, I'd expect the same at a Ford or Toyota dealer.
That's the truth! Ford with their junk 06-10, 5.4 truck engines and the 97 up Camry 2.2 4 cylinder.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on July 03, 2017, 08:50:04 AM
 :SM:  If yall knew about all the issues we know of out back......well..... :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 04, 2017, 01:17:10 AM
As mentioned earlier the M8 uses the 35260-06B  BEARING HOUSING,

it also uses a new (for 2017) bearing 11000010 , item #23 in the top half of the below pic, while the 8970A bearing has been around since the 2012 models.

The top half of the below pic is the HD SIP Site and is correct.

The bottom half of the below pic is from an online HD Provider that is using the ARI PartStream System and is incorrect as it has items #10 and #23 transposed.

(http://i.imgur.com/pGQp5Ii.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 04, 2017, 01:34:21 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/IWtSmBM.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 04, 2017, 10:17:46 AM
Thanks FSG for the parts and pics. Good catch on the bearing transposition in the ARI fiche....which is what I've mostly been using.

One thing that has been discussed by SC on the HD Forum is how does oll get into the area next to the clutch pushrod and trans input shaft in sufficient quantity to get transferred at high rpms. It was suggested maybe the adjacent bearing (11000010) was acting as a pump of sorts.

It appears from the pics to be shielded more than in the -06A Housing or the 8907A bearing to the right. One suggestion from SC was to install a shielded bearing to replace 11000010. So now I wonder if the bearing SC wanted to shield in your pics was replaced as a running change, or is it the same as initial production for all 2017 M8 models? It could still be the source of the excess oil however.

Edit: It may also be that the two bearings were reversed at times during production? (speculation).
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on July 04, 2017, 11:12:48 AM
QuoteIt was suggested maybe the adjacent bearing (11000010) was acting as a pump of sorts.

May have not been clear.. This is not correct. It was suggested that first gear with backlash gear was somehow creating a pump that was pushing oil through the mainshaft bearing. Not the layshaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 04, 2017, 11:30:55 AM
There have been a few suggestions Max as to the source of excess oil. SC in Post #422 (and others) suggests the input shaft bearing (whatever P/N is there) acts as an oil pump. You later mentioned the new for 2017 scissor 1st gear as a potential source and SC agreed it may be possible in Post #445.

Guess it depends on who's posting and where it's located in the Thread as to what's the possible source?

All in all it's an interesting discussion. Still someone should take their M8 apart, have a look, and take some pics of what's actually there for bearings and what type they are.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 05, 2017, 01:48:28 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/hsId8ym.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 05, 2017, 10:04:55 AM
Thanks FSG for a pic of the 8970A bearing. Any pics of the new for 2017 11000010 bearing available?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 05, 2017, 12:05:41 PM
 :up:  might have better luck looking for a C2   :SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: masterp on July 05, 2017, 05:09:49 PM
Not all 8970A bearings have the same cage.  Or, at least, not all are installed with the cage facing the same direction.  Sometimes the ball bearings are visible, other times the ball bearings are covered when viewed from the outside.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: masterp on July 05, 2017, 05:21:29 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on July 04, 2017, 11:30:55 AM
... take some pics of what's actually there for bearings and what type they are.
Not mine, but a picture of a '17 touring transmission nonetheless (according to the seller).  There are pictures of all the other angles on the ad as well.  I can only make out the bearing number on the countershaft and it's an 8970A.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 05, 2017, 05:43:07 PM
Quote from: masterp on July 05, 2017, 05:21:29 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on July 04, 2017, 11:30:55 AM
... take some pics of what's actually there for bearings and what type they are.
Not mine, but a picture of a '17 touring transmission nonetheless (according to the seller).  There are pictures of all the other angles on the ad as well.  I can only make out the bearing number on the countershaft and it's an 8970A.

Interesting and thanks for the pic. Look at Post #244 above and compare. In that pic it was reported the M8 uses the 35260-06B  BEARING HOUSING. The left input shaft bearing on the -06B looks different that pic, and the ad pic appears to dupe the pre-2016 -06A housing with similar 8970A bearings.

In raised letters above the bearings is written (I think!) 35053-06. That's for earlier 6-speed units.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: masterp on July 05, 2017, 06:13:42 PM
Yep, I noticed that too.  I found that same picture of the M8, shown in post 244, online.  It's taken from a full picture of the plant assembly line and is in a bunch of places and is the only one I've found.  I edited and zoomed in and the same part number with no rev B on it either.  Who knows.  Maybe early castings were not yet revised. 

It would still be nice to see what a person with a known problem bike has/sees.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: masterp on July 05, 2017, 06:39:35 PM
Ok, I have no idea how to attach a hi res image but it's out there in Google image.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 05, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
Short of FSG's contribution of pics I've yet to see anything similar from the afflicted M8's that are transferring trans oil. On the HD Forum a member (SC) has ordered a set of current right side trans shaft bearings to compare with those installed in test bikes. Theory being they're maybe part of the problem.

If I had one doing that I'd have the Dealer take a look and pics. Some reportedly have had some or all of their trans replaced, and today it was mentioned HD has some form of heads up bulletin regarding the issue. No solution reported though.

Gary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 06, 2017, 01:21:22 AM
QuoteNot mine, but a picture of a '17 touring transmission nonetheless (according to the seller).  There are pictures of all the other angles on the ad as well.  I can only make out the bearing number on the countershaft and it's an 8970A.

While I cannot say that it's NOT a pic of a '17  P/N 35260-06B  BEARING HOUSING,  I'll say that I'd expect to be able to see the scissor on that scissor gear.

Please remember that 35260-06B is a Part Number, what we see on the housing 35053-06, is a casting number.

(http://i.imgur.com/zqdcPky.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/h6hnofo.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: masterp on July 06, 2017, 03:32:42 AM
Nope, there is definitely no scissor gear anywhere in that transmission being sold as a '17 touring. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on July 06, 2017, 03:49:58 AM
? ? ?  :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 103eagle on July 06, 2017, 04:16:10 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 04:05:47 AM
Here is the modified one.
[attach=0]

Durwood, how bout an update?  Has the gasket fix continued to work?  Been some time since you posted and were testing.

Thanks in advance

Eagle Out
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 06, 2017, 04:33:43 AM
Tune one yesterday, had the 114 kit with Head Hoggers heads and Woods cams, after tree tune I drained the trans - 20oz.  Primary - 35 oz (I spilled a little though) I currently habe the primary off, it's getting a Scorpion basket in it today).  I didn't check sumping yet but I'm suspecting it as well. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 06, 2017, 06:40:10 AM
Don't think the bearing itself has anything to do with it. More likely the amount of oil from the back side transferring through it and onto the hole area for the clutch pushrod. Where's the scissor gear and does it add extra oiling to this bearing. Something as simple as a shield on the outboard side of this bearing could solve it if there's too much oil fed in the inboard side.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 06, 2017, 09:47:58 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/79422#TRANSMISSION_GEARS

P/N 27 1st gear on the countershaft.

Gary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on July 06, 2017, 10:17:51 AM
Quote from: 103eagle on July 06, 2017, 04:16:10 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 29, 2017, 04:05:47 AM
Here is the modified one.
[attach=0]

Durwood, how bout an update?  Has the gasket fix continued to work?  Been some time since you posted and were testing.

Thanks in advance

Eagle Out
I am covered up here at the shop, will post an update when I get a chance to put some more dyno time on it.

Daren
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 06, 2017, 10:36:33 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on July 06, 2017, 09:47:58 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/79422#TRANSMISSION_GEARS

P/N 27 1st gear on the countershaft.

Gary
Thanks. Don't see any connection to the problem with that gear. For some reason there has to be a collection of oil between that bearing and the clutch slave area. Don't think venting is the issue because once hot venting is quite none existent . If the oil head is higher then the hole in this bearing/slave area it will just flow into the primary in this non venting state. Basically gravity flow. The higher the rpm, the more oil and higher head is what I'm thinking.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 06, 2017, 03:40:30 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 06, 2017, 04:33:43 AM
Tune one yesterday, had the 114 kit with Head Hoggers heads and Woods cams, after tree tune I drained the trans - 20oz.  Primary - 35 oz (I spilled a little though) I currently habe the primary off, it's getting a Scorpion basket in it today).  I didn't check sumping yet but I'm suspecting it as well.

I just saw a typo in my previous post.  It was 38 oz i drained pout of the primary.  I pulled the sump plug today and got 18 out of out and that was after idling for 3 minutes or so.   This was a dealer build and they told him its covered on the warranty.   They said they never heard of either of these issue's so i sent the owner the link to this thread as the other forum. it'll be interesting if they chime in.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 06, 2017, 11:22:46 PM
QuoteDon't think the bearing itself has anything to do with it.

:agree:    but it's a new bearing and I'd like to know what it is and perhaps why the change,  it may be beefier and have something to do with wide transmission cases that we may see in 2018

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: mchertel on July 10, 2017, 11:29:11 AM
I have read in this forum and the HDF that some believe this issue is only happening on the "older" releases?  Is there any empirical data on this as far as build dates?  Realizing that the engine build date is not the same as the stamp on the completed bike so even if this is true there will be a grey area at best?  Just curious what the data shows.

And as a note, call me stupid but the CVO 114 is so much nicer than the UL 103 I had (even after upgrades on the 103 and maybe due to the upgrades!!) I bought it even knowing about this issue.  I now have 1000 miles on it and have checked the transmission fluid every 200 miles or so and it's still good to go.  This to me proves that this issue is not happening when keeping the bike below about 3500 RPM's for 5 minute cycles etc...  I do shift at higher than 3500 at times but not close to always.  Or HD secretly fixed the later runs.....which I doubt.

Finally as mentioned previously, thanks to all that are pouring their time and attention into this issue.  For now I am going to ride more, worry less, and check for updates here!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SLAATY on July 10, 2017, 05:21:42 PM
Welp, add mine to the list. '17 FLHR currently running stage 2 - torque cams, street cannons and a heavy breather all tied together with the moco's street tuner.

8,100 mi., had the 1k service done back when. I ride conservatively, shifting around 2700 generally. Noticed low trans fluid when I did my own 5k service and topped off. After catching this post I rechecked and found it low again, so I decided to stand the bike up and pop the derby cover. Fluid came out just popping it loose, and was level with the hole. Drained enough to level it again as I used Formula + in both holes.

Gonna call my dealer tomorrow.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: misfitJason on July 11, 2017, 05:03:54 AM
Maybe this is a all a plan by the MOCO to get more fluid to the compensator!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 11, 2017, 06:00:38 AM
Quote from: misfitJason on July 11, 2017, 05:03:54 AM
Maybe this is a all a plan by the MOCO to get more fluid to the compensator!
Too late. I guess the guy never got the memo. :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on July 11, 2017, 06:03:47 AM
    Just service one the other day. Went on 900 mile trip never over 3500 lost 7 oz out of trans. into primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigal51 on July 11, 2017, 06:19:21 AM
My M-8 is doing it too.  last change 22oz in trans and 40oz in primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on July 11, 2017, 09:49:03 AM
These latest reports are encouraging, as mine still hasn't moved with the modified gasket.

400 plus miles and a complete dyno tune with 30 plus max power runs, with more dyno time coming very soon.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on July 11, 2017, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Durwood on July 11, 2017, 09:49:03 AM
These latest reports are encouraging, as mine still hasn't moved with the modified gasket.

400 plus miles and a complete dyno tune with 30 plus max power runs, with more dyno time coming very soon.
:baby:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on July 17, 2017, 04:25:01 PM
A fella on M8 owners FB page has had this issue. His dealer has diagnosed a faulty crankshaft seal and plate . It allegedly causes a vacuum in the primary causing the oil transfer from trans. His dealer insists this is the cure!
Go figure!?!?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 17, 2017, 05:37:14 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 17, 2017, 04:25:01 PM
A fella on M8 owners FB page has had this issue. His dealer has diagnosed a faulty crankshaft seal and plate . It allegedly causes a vacuum in the primary causing the oil transfer from trans. His dealer insists this is the cure!
Go figure!?!?

I wonder whee the vacuum would be coming from  as there is no suction on the bteathers
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on July 17, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
ANy bad Crank Seals Ive seen transferred Engine oil IN to the Primary  :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 17, 2017, 06:20:47 PM
I see they have a new part number on the sprocket shaft seal, is it a double spring two way seal like the twin cam or did they go back to a single spring seal like the Evo?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 18, 2017, 05:56:40 AM
The function of the breather valves is to create a low pressure in the case. The outflow from breathers on piston down stroke is what you feel at the nipples. On the up stroke there is a slight negative pressure . This is very noticable when engine is first started. With the blowby from the cyls, generally it ends up being somewhat static in the case. When you decel there is negative pressure on top of the pistons and again there will be a low pressure in the case. Entirely possible a seal can cause transfer from the trans but it will be happening on decels. Now if these fools actually used a single lip seal in the first place, well, :slap: :slap:. It would be directional in oil control. It needs control in both directions for breather function. Much like seals in a two stroke engine.  If a standard seal out and out fails , engine oil will transfer to the primary being the crank is the high point. Air would also be going both ways past the seal on pistion up and downs so it would cancel out any chance to build negative pressure in the primary.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on July 18, 2017, 06:23:05 AM
seal on the ones I have built are double lip it that matters . Never seen one engine pull oil in.. So let me get this straight its creating a vacuum through the primary and thus into the trans ,  but its not pulling the level of the primary down thats funny so its a selective one way valve  :hyst: Sorry but if its pulling on that area it would keep pulling and raise the level of the engine oil as well . 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on July 18, 2017, 07:15:19 AM
I tend to agree with GMR.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 18, 2017, 07:33:00 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 18, 2017, 06:23:05 AM
seal on the ones I have built are double lip it that matters . Never seen one engine pull oil in.. So let me get this straight its creating a vacuum through the primary and thus into the trans ,  but its not pulling the level of the primary down thats funny so its a selective one way valve  :hyst: Sorry but if its pulling on that area it would keep pulling and raise the level of the engine oil as well .

Pretty much what I was getting at.  I know of one stock bike that had the main seal replaced then ridden hard for 20 miles or so and it was still sumping.  At this point I don't think they have a clue of how to fix some of the issues they have. You have to know the cause to figure out the fix. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 18, 2017, 09:17:57 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 18, 2017, 06:23:05 AM
seal on the ones I have built are double lip it that matters . Never seen one engine pull oil in.. So let me get this straight its creating a vacuum through the primary and thus into the trans ,  but its not pulling the level of the primary down thats funny so its a selective one way valve  :hyst: Sorry but if its pulling on that area it would keep pulling and raise the level of the engine oil as well .
You can't pull fluid out of the primary because the level is quite a bit below the crank and seal, right? We both know there's next to no oil around the seal area from primary fluid. If there's already a revision on the seal, that means they fkd up somehow. It is after all a simple seal but one or two lips makes a difference if in fact the early ones came with a single lip. Who knows, but yes a single lip will act like a one way valve with umbrellas in play in the breather system.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 18, 2017, 04:35:34 PM
Quote from: rbabos on July 18, 2017, 09:17:57 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 18, 2017, 06:23:05 AM
seal on the ones I have built are double lip it that matters . Never seen one engine pull oil in.. So let me get this straight its creating a vacuum through the primary and thus into the trans ,  but its not pulling the level of the primary down thats funny so its a selective one way valve  :hyst: Sorry but if its pulling on that area it would keep pulling and raise the level of the engine oil as well .
You can't pull fluid out of the primary because the level is quite a bit below the crank and seal, right? We both know there's next to no oil around the seal area from primary fluid. If there's already a revision on the seal, that means they fkd up somehow. It is after all a simple seal but one or two lips makes a difference if in fact the early ones came with a single lip. Who knows, but yes a single lip will act like a one way valve with umbrellas in play in the breather system.
Ron

I agree there is little or no primary oil in the area around the engine sprocket shaft seal so no oil transfer to the crank case would not surprise me. There is a big difference between a single spring double lip seal like the shovels and evos used and the two way double spring seals used in the twin cams so if the M-8 went back to the single spring double lip there could very easily be an air transfer. They make a big deal about the M-8's new improved breather system and if indeed it works and the guy actually did a good breakin so the rings seal you could easily get some crank case vacuum, they would evacuate about 107ci of air on every down stroke and the only way to refill the case cavity is if you have blow by.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on July 18, 2017, 04:39:47 PM
Ok so if this is the case, how does Darren's mod to trans cover gasket weigh in to the debate?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 18, 2017, 04:45:08 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 18, 2017, 04:39:47 PM
Ok so if this is the case, how does Darren's mod to trans cover gasket weigh in to the debate?

I am only saying that this to is plausible. I do not think anyone has a real handle on the cause and without a true root cause many things may effect what is happening but a true cure will not come.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 18, 2017, 06:31:37 PM
If there's a vacuum and a leak there's a source to fill it. Maybe someone should put a gauge on the transmission breather and see what the vacuum/pressure changes are at various rpms?

Gary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 19, 2017, 03:34:51 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on July 18, 2017, 06:31:37 PM
If there's a vacuum and a leak there's a source to fill it. Maybe someone should put a gauge on the transmission breather and see what the vacuum/pressure changes are at various rpms?

Gary

Good idea, I bet you could leave the trans vent open, hook a vacuum/boost sensor to the primary and gragh the pressure right on the dyno during multiple runs just like you do to test air cleaner pressure.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bobv on July 19, 2017, 04:45:47 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on July 18, 2017, 06:31:37 PM
If there's a vacuum and a leak there's a source to fill it. Maybe someone should put a gauge on the transmission breather and see what the vacuum/pressure changes are at various rpms?

Gary

That has been my thought for quite some time. Doesn't seem like it would be real difficult but might provide some answers or at least rule that out.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 19, 2017, 05:51:37 AM
I find this all interesting. Discussions are great but seldom solve issues.  Me, I'd whip up a fitting for the primary some way and attach a vacuum gauge it to the primary and see if it pulls vacuum on hard decels or above 3500 rpms. Great test for any dyno tuners here. Should be done on a hot primay, where out venting will have already slowed from expansion.  It might also be possible to attach the gauge to the trans vent to see the same but this would be a much lower reading, I think since oil transfer within the main shaft would reduce the effect or slow it down so it could be seen. Primary would show it better. Testing will either rule it out or confirm a possible seal problem. It's entirely possible there are two issues in play here. An over abundance of oil around the main shaft hole for he pushrod and primary suction pulling gear oil from the box to the primary.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 19, 2017, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 19, 2017, 05:51:37 AM
I find this all interesting. Discussions are great but seldom solve issues.  Me, I'd whip up a fitting for the primary some way and attach a vacuum gauge it to the primary and see if it pulls vacuum on hard decels or above 3500 rpms. Great test for any dyno tuners here. Should be done on a hot primay, where out venting will have already slowed from expansion.  It might also be possible to attach the gauge to the trans vent to see the same but this would be a much lower reading, I think since oil transfer within the main shaft would reduce the effect or slow it down so it could be seen. Primary would show it better. Testing will either rule it out or confirm a possible seal problem. It's entirely possible there are two issues in play here. An over abundance of oil around the main shaft hole for he pushrod and primary suction pulling gear oil from the box to the primary.
Ron

I'm supposed to have a stage IV 114 coming in for a tune.  If he shows i'll try to find the time to test the vacuum on just the primary.  Just depends on how much time I have to mess with it and if someone is around to video the vacuum gauge while I rune the bike.  Really simple to do but i'm still messed up with this hip, so even the simple things can be a PITA.  I can test both the M* and a TC very easily. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 19, 2017, 08:36:33 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 19, 2017, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 19, 2017, 05:51:37 AM
I find this all interesting. Discussions are great but seldom solve issues.  Me, I'd whip up a fitting for the primary some way and attach a vacuum gauge it to the primary and see if it pulls vacuum on hard decels or above 3500 rpms. Great test for any dyno tuners here. Should be done on a hot primay, where out venting will have already slowed from expansion.  It might also be possible to attach the gauge to the trans vent to see the same but this would be a much lower reading, I think since oil transfer within the main shaft would reduce the effect or slow it down so it could be seen. Primary would show it better. Testing will either rule it out or confirm a possible seal problem. It's entirely possible there are two issues in play here. An over abundance of oil around the main shaft hole for he pushrod and primary suction pulling gear oil from the box to the primary.
Ron

I'm supposed to have a stage IV 114 coming in for a tune.  If he shows i'll try to find the time to test the vacuum on just the primary.  Just depends on how much time I have to mess with it and if someone is around to video the vacuum gauge while I rune the bike.  Really simple to do but i'm still messed up with this hip, so even the simple things can be a PITA.  I can test both the M* and a TC very easily.
I think it's worth a shot when you are up to it. It would have to be a known bike that does transfer from gearbox to primary. If at some point they might have changed the seal mid production so it might not show up in testing. Seems some do and some don't transfer oil. The seal could be ruled out or confirmed in testing on one that has the issue.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 19, 2017, 08:53:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 19, 2017, 08:36:33 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 19, 2017, 06:39:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 19, 2017, 05:51:37 AM
I find this all interesting. Discussions are great but seldom solve issues.  Me, I'd whip up a fitting for the primary some way and attach a vacuum gauge it to the primary and see if it pulls vacuum on hard decels or above 3500 rpms. Great test for any dyno tuners here. Should be done on a hot primay, where out venting will have already slowed from expansion.  It might also be possible to attach the gauge to the trans vent to see the same but this would be a much lower reading, I think since oil transfer within the main shaft would reduce the effect or slow it down so it could be seen. Primary would show it better. Testing will either rule it out or confirm a possible seal problem. It's entirely possible there are two issues in play here. An over abundance of oil around the main shaft hole for he pushrod and primary suction pulling gear oil from the box to the primary.
Ron

I'm supposed to have a stage IV 114 coming in for a tune.  If he shows i'll try to find the time to test the vacuum on just the primary.  Just depends on how much time I have to mess with it and if someone is around to video the vacuum gauge while I rune the bike.  Really simple to do but i'm still messed up with this hip, so even the simple things can be a PITA.  I can test both the M* and a TC very easily.
I think it's worth a shot when you are up to it. It would have to be a known bike that does transfer from gearbox to primary. If at some point they might have changed the seal mid production so it might not show up in testing. Seems some do and some don't transfer oil. The seal could be ruled out or confirmed in testing on one that has the issue.
Ron

I agree but i'll run the test weather or not it's transferring.  If it's not it will give a baseline off a known good one to compare to the next bad one. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: les on July 19, 2017, 09:20:42 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 17, 2017, 04:25:01 PM
A fella on M8 owners FB page has had this issue. His dealer has diagnosed a faulty crankshaft seal and plate . It allegedly causes a vacuum in the primary causing the oil transfer from trans. His dealer insists this is the cure!
Go figure!?!?

What is a crankshaft plate?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on July 20, 2017, 05:26:11 PM
Would a vacuum gauge in the trans breather be appropriate?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 21, 2017, 06:15:37 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 20, 2017, 05:26:11 PM
Would a vacuum gauge in the trans breather be appropriate?
Might not react fast enough . Oil being drawn in, if it actually is past the pushrod will act like a seal to the trans slowing the vacuum effect on the trans side. Primary will react instantly to vacuum if present. I would think mostly at decel conditions where the case is at it's most negative pressure. All this of course if it's main seal related. Yet to be tested and proven.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on July 21, 2017, 08:16:41 AM
Yes on HD forum - M8 section , the discussion bubbling away. Mr Cole believes it's a tranny issue. I think Max concurs.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 21, 2017, 08:55:05 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 21, 2017, 08:16:41 AM
Yes on HD forum - M8 section , the discussion bubbling away. Mr Cole believes it's a tranny issue. I think Max concurs.
OOOH. In that case I better crawl under a rock then with my far fetched ideas. Pretty sure the members here can find the cause sooner then the chrome whore site. The game is afoot, so they say. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on July 21, 2017, 03:19:54 PM
Shouldn't be too hard to drill/tap inspection cover for a pipe fitting and then adapt a vacuum gauge.  Could be an interesting test. I'd be surprised if HD doesn't do it already. Well then again, lol....

And in effect if what HD was saying about engine vacuum, then venting the primary with same fitting could be an interesting test.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on July 21, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
Mr. Cole said earlier this evening on another forum that he had a customers bike in the shop today for tuning and did modify his transmission to test out his theoretical fix to the transfer problem. He did not say what he modified. The customer is getting ready to go on a two week trip and he will prove whether or not his modification works or not. My guess is that it has something to do with modifying the tranny gasket so it breathes better and does not create a vacuum, but that is pure speculation on my part because I don't know "Potty mouth" from wild honey. I for one will be waiting patiently to see how this plays out because we are not hearing squat from the MOCO.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 22, 2017, 04:32:56 AM
Quote from: 96349 on July 21, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
Mr. Cole said earlier this evening on another forum that he had a customers bike in the shop today for tuning and did modify his transmission to test out his theoretical fix to the transfer problem. He did not say what he modified. The customer is getting ready to go on a two week trip and he will prove whether or not his modification works or not. My guess is that it has something to do with modifying the tranny gasket so it breathes better and does not create a vacuum, but that is pure speculation on my part because I don't know "Potty mouth" from wild honey. I for one will be waiting patiently to see how this plays out because we are not hearing squat from the MOCO.

The good thing is after he did his modifications he put in a new cam and ran the bike through a full tune and there was no transfer at all. The owner sms hood buddies plan on a 6000 mile trip over the next 2 weeks so that should be a good test.  This bike was running one of Steve's prototype cams (TTS200) and in the initial tune it transferred a lot of fluid.  I talked with Steve last night,  he just wants his personal bikes to be fixed.  Ones been at the dealer since he discovered the problem right after he bought it almost a year ago.  California has a lemon law and he is very close to using it.  The bike had 90 miles on it when hee took it in.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Herko on July 22, 2017, 05:00:23 AM
Quote from: 96349 on July 21, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
...modifying the tranny gasket...

Interesting.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on July 22, 2017, 05:25:13 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on May 31, 2017, 06:22:39 AM
My interest is in finding a solution! I have no investment in rubbing their nose in it even though I am not impressed.
Dog shits in the house they need there nose rubbed in it , along with a firm NO,  a slap on the nose with newspaper, and taken out side. "Potty mouth" outside  the  problem  is fixed , along with  a treat and good boy. H-D  is no different every time dealer ask when  i am going to buy a new bike . I let him know  what items the CO is  shitting all over  and i  don't like the smell. So no treats out of my wallet.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Will-Run on July 22, 2017, 07:49:07 AM
 :up: :up: If more did this. They would stop shitting where they eat.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on July 22, 2017, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: Herko on July 22, 2017, 05:00:23 AM
Quote from: 96349 on July 21, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
...modifying the tranny gasket...

Interesting.

Darren's bike still going ok with his tranny gasket mod ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on July 23, 2017, 08:28:10 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 22, 2017, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: Herko on July 22, 2017, 05:00:23 AM
Quote from: 96349 on July 21, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
...modifying the tranny gasket...

Interesting.

Darren's bike still going ok with his tranny gasket mod ?
So far so good but still not enough time for us to call it whooped....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on July 23, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Durwood on July 23, 2017, 08:28:10 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 22, 2017, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: Herko on July 22, 2017, 05:00:23 AM
Quote from: 96349 on July 21, 2017, 08:50:48 PM
...modifying the tranny gasket...

Interesting.

Darren's bike still going ok with his tranny gasket mod ?
So far so good but still not enough time for us to call it whooped....

:up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on July 23, 2017, 04:40:15 PM
I really, really hope that all this transfer of fluid just amounts to a modified gasket of sorts. That would be pretty easy to remedy by the service departments. If they have to fall all those transmissions into the shop for a complete tear down to modify them that will be a fricken nightmare and take a year or more to complete.
Still, not a peep from the  manufacturer. Not even so much as a "we are aware of the problem and are efforting to understand it  at this time". Hell, they are making new 2018 models as we speak. I guess it is possible that they will be having the same problem. Now I know what a mushroom feels like.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on July 23, 2017, 11:56:28 PM
I tend to believe that the crank oil seal in combination with the improved crank breather might be the culprit (as stated by others already). That's why the company needs time for a smart fix imho. Venting the primary would surely help but...

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 24, 2017, 04:19:11 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 23, 2017, 11:56:28 PM
I tend to believe that the crank oil seal in combination with the improved crank breather might be the culprit (as stated by others already). That's why the company needs time for a smart fix imho. Venting the primary would surely help but...

Karl

At this point it is hard to tell but one thing for sure is that finding a way to stop the fliud transfer is different than finding and fixing the cause.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 24, 2017, 04:40:23 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 23, 2017, 11:56:28 PM
I tend to believe that the crank oil seal in combination with the improved crank breather might be the culprit (as stated by others already). That's why the company needs time for a smart fix imho. Venting the primary would surely help but...

Karl

I don't think that is it.  I know of one that had the primary fluid over halfway yoo on the main seal. No fluid pulled into the cases
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 24, 2017, 05:44:11 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 24, 2017, 04:40:23 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 23, 2017, 11:56:28 PM
I tend to believe that the crank oil seal in combination with the improved crank breather might be the culprit (as stated by others already). That's why the company needs time for a smart fix imho. Venting the primary would surely help but...

Karl

I don't think that is it.  I know of one that had the primary fluid over halfway yoo on the main seal. No fluid pulled into the cases
In order to find what's going on once and for all is to slap a gauge in the primary. If the trans is actually pumping it will slowly register pressure. If it's the main seal, a vacuum will slowly develop. Either will take a while to show on the gauge.  What I did to test a shovel once was weld a barb fitting for a hose onto a spare derby bolt. Mind you the shovel didn't have blind holes in the outer cover for the bolts. In this case for a personal bike, a 1/16" hole will need to be drilled in the one blind hole the fitting is installed into. Pressure = trans issue, Vacuum = main seal. Then it can be narrowed down to one area only.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on July 24, 2017, 07:08:34 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 24, 2017, 05:44:11 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on July 24, 2017, 04:40:23 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 23, 2017, 11:56:28 PM
I tend to believe that the crank oil seal in combination with the improved crank breather might be the culprit (as stated by others already). That's why the company needs time for a smart fix imho. Venting the primary would surely help but...

Karl

I don't think that is it.  I know of one that had the primary fluid over halfway yoo on the main seal. No fluid pulled into the cases
In order to find what's going on once and for all is to slap a gauge in the primary. If the trans is actually pumping it will slowly register pressure. If it's the main seal, a vacuum will slowly develop. Either will take a while to show on the gauge.  What I did to test a shovel once was weld a barb fitting for a hose onto a spare derby bolt. Mind you the shovel didn't have blind holes in the outer cover for the bolts. In this case for a personal bike, a 1/16" hole will need to be drilled in the one blind hole the fitting is installed into. Pressure = trans issue, Vacuum = main seal. Then it can be narrowed down to one area only.
Ron

I agree completely.  I even said in here a, couple weeks ago to vent the primary separately and check out for vacuum.  I planned on testing the next one that comes in.  I was supposed to have another stage IV 114 coming but i think they found it sumping and are adressing that first.  I was going to simply drill and tap a hole in a spare derby for a barbed fitting and hook up a guage.  Other than simple tests like that I'm not going to look very far into the issue.  I still feel its HD's problem to figure out.  If I owned a m8 doing it i might be more apt to try to fix it. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: WirgmanUSMC on July 31, 2017, 06:13:21 PM
Just did a pre Sturgis fluid change today at 6,000 miles. I like to start out my long trips with fresh fluids across the board since it's a lot of hard riding. Noticed the tranny fluid was a bit short, then when I drained the primary it was certainly over full. I didn't measure the ounces, but after filling an empty quart bottle with the primary fluid, I still had a bit left and it topped off the quart bottle from the tranny.
Now I have been running this sucker HARD for the past 3,000 miles, and never thought to check the tranny levels, cause it wasn't leaking anywhere.
So, do y'all think I'm good for this trip? It'll probably be about 4,000 miles in two weeks. Maybe just check and top off the tranny from time to time? I didn't have any odd metal in the fluid when I changed it.
Also, how full can the primary get before that would cause issues?
I really wanted to take the M8 to Sturgis instead of my Dyna.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on July 31, 2017, 08:10:27 PM
Take the new bike , Me i'd take a qt of trans , if it's down a few oz's  add to it and drain a few out of  pri. P.I.A but it's under warranty . Don't let them dumb asses in milwaukee ruin your fun.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: WirgmanUSMC on August 02, 2017, 05:54:53 PM
Well, I figured it wouldn't hurt so I did the "Durwood" mod this morning. I've been riding my Street Bob for the last couple days, so the fluids are all new and correct on my SG. Gonna try this gasket mod on for size during my Sturgis trip. I leave Sat and I'll do about 750 miles the first day then I'll check my levels and post back.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 103eagle on August 03, 2017, 09:18:24 AM
Yo Durwood, any updates on your fix????

Eagle out
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 03, 2017, 10:26:12 AM
Quote from: 103eagle on August 03, 2017, 09:18:24 AM
Yo Durwood, any updates on your fix????

Eagle out
I have it on the dyno as I type.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
Well the dealer called SC and told him to come pick up his bike.  The MoCo doesn't know what's wrong with it.  They've had the bike pretty much for the last 9 months straight and have tried everything they can come up with.  The last go around the bike transferred 22 oz.  They told him if to keep an eye on the levels and to bring it back when they are off and the dealer will set the proper levels free of charge. They are hoping to have something figured out within the next couple weeks.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 05, 2017, 08:05:34 AM
Well that s very frustrating. If he brings it back three times in short order, with all the documented previous work, shouldn't it qualify for the lemon law?
And nice answer from the Moco. Yup, it's broken, we suck at figuring out what's wrong with our own product, so just ride it, but not too far, and keep bringing it back because it's real convenient for you.
The state attorney general would at least get a letter from me explaining the situation.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on August 05, 2017, 08:42:41 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
Well the dealer called SC and told him to come pick up his bike.  The MoCo doesn't know what's wrong with it.  They've had the bike pretty much for the last 9 months straight and have tried everything they can come up with.  The last go around the bike transferred 22 oz.  They told him if to keep an eye on the levels and to bring it back when they are off and the dealer will set the proper levels free of charge. They are hoping to have something figured out within the next couple weeks.
Did  they give you a free loner.?  9 Mo's is just insane . Building bikes for 114 yrs and  can't  figure out what is wrong. Some engineers need to find a different line of work.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 08:58:59 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 05, 2017, 08:05:34 AM
Well that s very frustrating. If he brings it back three times in short order, with all the documented previous work, shouldn't it qualify for the lemon law?
And nice answer from the Moco. Yup, it's broken, we suck at figuring out what's wrong with our own product, so just ride it, but not too far, and keep bringing it back because it's real convenient for you.
The state attorney general would at least get a letter from me explaining the situation.

He's already talked about considering the lemon law.  This bike was brought right at the release last year, the problem was discovered pretty much immediately with something like 30 miles on it. Other than the dealership having him pick it up to test ride it It's been at the dealership ever since. He actually had to purchase another bike to do Calibration development and product development with.  That bike also transfers fluid but he has been working on his own fix for it.  His modifications to that bike have slowed around 75% of the transfer.  He had another bike doing it (friends) that he went a little further with his mod on to test, that bike is currently on a 6,000 mile trip and should be back in the next 2 weeks, at that point Steve will know if his mod works.

This is a list of some of the things that the MoCo had the dealer do to the first bike.

- The vent system was check by pushing compressed air into the the oil fill and checking airflow out of the vent hose.
- Clutch slave removed check the rubber seal on it for cracks.
- Removed the vent cover plate and check gasket sealing and replace gasket.
- While vent plate remove inspect passageways.
- Removed clutch pushrod and inspect mainshaft hole for obstructions.
- Opened primary and check torque on Clutch basket and engine output shaft.
- Removed the primary chain and pieces to replace main seal and the sleeve it rides on, reassemble.

This was what was done at the last go at it.  They then had Steve take the pike on a ride and bring it back after 100 miles.  He brought it back after 80 miles in the mountains, 22 ounces were transferred.  That's the point the MoCo told him to come get his bike.  They don't know what else to try on it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 09:00:10 AM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on August 05, 2017, 08:42:41 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
Well the dealer called SC and told him to come pick up his bike.  The MoCo doesn't know what's wrong with it.  They've had the bike pretty much for the last 9 months straight and have tried everything they can come up with.  The last go around the bike transferred 22 oz.  They told him if to keep an eye on the levels and to bring it back when they are off and the dealer will set the proper levels free of charge. They are hoping to have something figured out within the next couple weeks.
Did  they give you a free loner.?  9 Mo's is just insane . Building bikes for 114 yrs and  can't  figure out what is wrong. Some engineers need to find a different line of work.

No loaner.  He bought another bike that does it as well.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on August 05, 2017, 10:14:23 AM
There's a bit of a problem here with an immediate repair to SC's. If HD knows the source, a fix, and does it successfully then they're committed now to others for the same. Selling a potentially defective new 2017 with a known repair might hurt sales and dealers trying to clear the floor. May be better for them to correct it later under warranty.

In a few weeks the 2018's will be on the street. They may have been modified up front or via a running production change. Any improved parts or assembly may be in short supply.  So delay the repairs on 2017's and make new bikes may be their priority. Or...they may truly be ignorant of the cause, but somehow I doubt that.

I guess we'll see when first owners of the 2018's have a scoot and do a trans lube check next month.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: WirgmanUSMC on August 05, 2017, 04:16:21 PM
So I did 680 miles today with my Durwood gasket mod and I have no notable drop in tranny levels. Mainly kept it around 3k, but there were certainly some miles put on over 90mph and some hard accelerating. I'll check it again in 1,000 when I get to Sturgis.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DTTJGlide on August 05, 2017, 07:16:34 PM
You had problems with it transferring before the gasket mod, or you just wanted to do "prevent defense" before a long trip?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: WirgmanUSMC on August 05, 2017, 08:13:50 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on August 05, 2017, 07:16:34 PM
You had problems with it transferring before the gasket mod, or you just wanted to do "prevent defense" before a long trip?
I was having problems prior. I didn't realize it till doing my 5K service. I didn't measure how many ounces had transferred, but it was substantial.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 06, 2017, 09:13:57 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
Well the dealer called SC and told him to come pick up his bike.  The MoCo doesn't know what's wrong with it.  They've had the bike pretty much for the last 9 months straight and have tried everything they can come up with.  The last go around the bike transferred 22 oz.  They told him if to keep an eye on the levels and to bring it back when they are off and the dealer will set the proper levels free of charge. They are hoping to have something figured out within the next couple weeks.

I would tell them to fix it or give me my money back, or the next person they talk to will be my attorney, lemon law or not. What the hell good is a motorcycle that you have to refill the tranny and drain the primary every 50-100 miles? I would be friggen pissed!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 06, 2017, 09:19:01 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 06, 2017, 09:13:57 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
Well the dealer called SC and told him to come pick up his bike.  The MoCo doesn't know what's wrong with it.  They've had the bike pretty much for the last 9 months straight and have tried everything they can come up with.  The last go around the bike transferred 22 oz.  They told him if to keep an eye on the levels and to bring it back when they are off and the dealer will set the proper levels free of charge. They are hoping to have something figured out within the next couple weeks.

I would tell them to fix it or give me my money back, or the next person they talk to will be my attorney, lemon law or not. What the hell good is a motorcycle that you have to refill the tranny and drain the primary every 50-100 miles? I would be friggen pissed!
I'd be riding a different brand by then. Only so much bs I can tolerate and that's well beyond my limit when it comes to the MoCo.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 06, 2017, 09:35:56 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 06, 2017, 09:19:01 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 06, 2017, 09:13:57 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 05, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
Well the dealer called SC and told him to come pick up his bike.  The MoCo doesn't know what's wrong with it.  They've had the bike pretty much for the last 9 months straight and have tried everything they can come up with.  The last go around the bike transferred 22 oz.  They told him if to keep an eye on the levels and to bring it back when they are off and the dealer will set the proper levels free of charge. They are hoping to have something figured out within the next couple weeks.

I would tell them to fix it or give me my money back, or the next person they talk to will be my attorney, lemon law or not. What the hell good is a motorcycle that you have to refill the tranny and drain the primary every 50-100 miles? I would be friggen pissed!
I'd be riding a different brand by then. Only so much bs I can tolerate and that's well beyond my limit when it comes to the MoCo.
Ron

I tend to agree. Fix it in a timely manner, or give me a new one. If it happens again, refund ALL my money, including tax and license, and show me to the nearest BMW dealer. I might even look at Japanese models.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 06, 2017, 11:01:07 AM
I haven't spoken to him on the phone since this latest development,  just via text so it's hard to get his demeaned, I don't know if he's pissed or laughing about it.  I do know he wasn't very confident with there last round of tests so I'm positive the results weren't a,surprise. I'm sure we'll be talking in the next day or 2 and ill get more.   I will day that he is a lot more patient than i am. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 06, 2017, 02:02:53 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 06, 2017, 09:35:56 AM

I tend to agree. Fix it in a timely manner, or give me a new one. If it happens again, refund ALL my money, including tax and license, and show me to the nearest BMW dealer. I might even look at Japanese models.


Shh! People get pissy when we talk about BMW's! :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: WirgmanUSMC on August 07, 2017, 07:11:01 AM
Checked oil last night after getting to Sioux Falls. 1,300 miles and no transfer yet with the gasket mod. Bike is spraying oil like crazy from the breathers from the hard highway riding, but tranny oil looks good!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: les on August 07, 2017, 10:04:11 AM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on August 07, 2017, 07:11:01 AM
Checked oil last night after getting to Sioux Falls. 1,300 miles and no transfer yet with the gasket mod. Bike is spraying oil like crazy from the breathers from the hard highway riding, but tranny oil looks good!

A few weeks ago, I rented a 2017 Limited for a 4 day ride.  1650 miles on the odometer when I picked up the bike.  Put a couple thousand miles on it during the ride.  I also had oil puking out of the bottom of the air filter that covered the front half of the cam chest cover.  Some even got down on the front exhaust pipe near the right footboard. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on August 08, 2017, 06:06:56 AM
Over 68000 views and 100 pages of comment on this issue on another forum.
I would love to get to a solution on this.
How is it going Durwood?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 08, 2017, 06:59:01 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 08, 2017, 06:06:56 AM
Over 68000 views and 100 pages of comment on this issue on another forum.
I would love to get to a solution on this.
How is it going Durwood?
The short story is that after 1200 miles and 2 dyno sessions including full tunes and over 60 max power runs my bike transferred 3oz of fluid.

This is much improved from the same transfer amount with less than 500 miles prior to modifying the gasket, so I opened the whole significantly more to see what happens.

I am not convinced as of yet that this phenomenon is exclusive to the Milwaukee Eight, I serviced a 2016 FLTRU equipped with a hydraulic clutch a couple of days ago, the primary fluid level was at the point of running out the service hole in the cover and the transmission fluid level was extremely low on the stick.

It will be a while before I can confirm, but it sure looks suspicious.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on August 09, 2017, 04:15:24 PM
Steve Cole appears to be cautiously progressing with a solution. I don't get The crankshaft seal scenario. These M8s have been around for almost 12 months now. The MoCo gas had more than enough that time and publicity to discover a solution.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 10, 2017, 05:43:39 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 09, 2017, 04:15:24 PM
Steve Cole appears to be cautiously progressing with a solution. I don't get The crankshaft seal scenario. These M8s have been around for almost 12 months now. The MoCo gas had more than enough that time and publicity to discover a solution.
The longer they play dumb, the more money they save basically.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 10, 2017, 05:56:23 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 09, 2017, 04:15:24 PM
Steve Cole appears to be cautiously progressing with a solution. I don't get The crankshaft seal scenario. These M8s have been around for almost 12 months now. The MoCo gas had more than enough that time and publicity to discover a solution.

interesting comment

Daren has posted a mod that has substantially reduced transfer
and is still being refined

SC was looking at the ball bearings up to two weeks ago
and has trialled a mod to the transmission on a customer bike that appears to show a positive result
has two personal bikes with no attempted fix that continue to transfer 'large' quantities of transmission fluid

:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on August 10, 2017, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 08, 2017, 06:59:01 AM

I am not convinced as of yet that this phenomenon is exclusive to the Milwaukee Eight, I serviced a 2016 FLTRU equipped with a hydraulic clutch a couple of days ago, the primary fluid level was at the point of running out the service hole in the cover and the transmission fluid level was extremely low on the stick.

It will be a while before I can confirm, but it sure looks suspicious.

Was the FLTRU a SE or standard?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 10, 2017, 07:56:25 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on August 10, 2017, 07:55:08 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 08, 2017, 06:59:01 AM

I am not convinced as of yet that this phenomenon is exclusive to the Milwaukee Eight, I serviced a 2016 FLTRU equipped with a hydraulic clutch a couple of days ago, the primary fluid level was at the point of running out the service hole in the cover and the transmission fluid level was extremely low on the stick.

It will be a while before I can confirm, but it sure looks suspicious.

Was the FLTRU a SE or standard?
It was a standard Road glide Ultra.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 10, 2017, 09:32:11 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 10, 2017, 05:56:23 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 09, 2017, 04:15:24 PM
Steve Cole appears to be cautiously progressing with a solution. I don't get The crankshaft seal scenario. These M8s have been around for almost 12 months now. The MoCo gas had more than enough that time and publicity to discover a solution.

interesting comment

Daren has posted a mod that has substantially reduced transfer
and is still being refined

SC was looking at the ball bearings up to two weeks ago
and has trialled a mod to the transmission on a customer bike that appears to show a positive result
has two personal bikes with no attempted fix that continue to transfer 'large' quantities of transmission fluid

:nix:

Steve did his mod on one of his personal bikes (the other had been sitting at the dealer for 9 months so he didn't do anything to that one).  On the bikie of his he did the mod to the transfer was reduced by 60-75%.  When his customer came in with the same problem he discussed the mod with him and said he wanted to do the same thing to that bike as he did to his own but take it a little further.  Customer said do it.  So far after 6400 miles into his trip, checking levels daily he hasn't noticed any transfer at all.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 10, 2017, 09:42:11 AM
I know it would really frost me if I took a trip on my brand new motorcycle and had to check the tranny every day. It would really ruin the fun.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: chipthedonkey on August 10, 2017, 03:41:52 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 10, 2017, 09:42:11 AM
I know it would really frost me if I took a trip on my brand new motorcycle and had to check the tranny every day. It would really ruin the fun.

Think how bad it would be to have to check fluids ever day, adjust and lube chains every morning in the hotel parking lot when you ride on a trip, patch your tubes on the side fo the rode and other regular stuff that no one should ever have to do on a motorcycle.  I sure am glad we never had to do stuff like that.  Checking a fluid every day?  Oh my goodness that would rune a hole trip!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 10, 2017, 04:40:12 PM
If there's not a puddle under it tree shills be no ran to check trans and primary fluids.  Especially on a bend new bike. Outs the MoCo's job to design it to keep the fluids where they belong.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Coyote on August 10, 2017, 06:28:42 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 10, 2017, 04:40:12 PM
If there's not a puddle under it tree shills be no ran to check trans and primary fluids.  Especially on a bend new bike. Outs the MoCo's job to design it to keep the fluids where they belong.

Huh?  :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on August 10, 2017, 08:22:47 PM
Until such time as somebodies transmission actually locks up and they go into a skid which causes a wreck resulting in injury the Feds are not likely to get involved. What with all the bikes that are transferring fluid I am amazed that I have not heard one instance of a transmission locking up yet. Has anyone else heard anything about one or more locking up?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 11, 2017, 04:22:49 AM
Quote from: Coyote on August 10, 2017, 06:28:42 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 10, 2017, 04:40:12 PM
If there's not a puddle under it tree shills be no ran to check trans and primary fluids.  Especially on a bend new bike. Outs the MoCo's job to design it to keep the fluids where they belong.

Huh?  :hyst:

Note to self....self, stop using the swipe feature on you phone to reply.

"If there's not a puddle under it the bike there's no reason to check trans and primary fluids.  Especially on a brand new bike. Is the MoCo's job to design it to keep the fluids where they belong."

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 11, 2017, 04:33:56 AM
Quote from: chipthedonkey on August 10, 2017, 03:41:52 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 10, 2017, 09:42:11 AM
I know it would really frost me if I took a trip on my brand new motorcycle and had to check the tranny every day. It would really ruin the fun.

Think how bad it would be to have to check fluids ever day, adjust and lube chains every morning in the hotel parking lot when you ride on a trip, patch your tubes on the side fo the rode and other regular stuff that no one should ever have to do on a motorcycle.  I sure am glad we never had to do stuff like that.  Checking a fluid every day?  Oh my goodness that would rune a hole trip!

It wouldn't ruin the trip, but I have a 17 year old bike that doesn't give me grief. Having a brand new one that does would be frustrating.
If it was one time thing and I could get it fixed, I could live with that, but knowing it seems to be a design problem and there is no fix, that would frost me.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 11, 2017, 04:41:04 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 08, 2017, 06:59:01 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 08, 2017, 06:06:56 AM
Over 68000 views and 100 pages of comment on this issue on another forum.
I would love to get to a solution on this.
How is it going Durwood?
The short story is that after 1200 miles and 2 dyno sessions including full tunes and over 60 max power runs my bike transferred 3oz of fluid.

This is much improved from the same transfer amount with less than 500 miles prior to modifying the gasket, so I opened the whole significantly more to see what happens.

I am not convinced as of yet that this phenomenon is exclusive to the Milwaukee Eight, I serviced a 2016 FLTRU equipped with a hydraulic clutch a couple of days ago, the primary fluid level was at the point of running out the service hole in the cover and the transmission fluid level was extremely low on the stick.

It will be a while before I can confirm, but it sure looks suspicious.


Interesting info, if it is a hydralic clutch issue and not a M-8 issue I would look to the pictures in this post
http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1159595#msg1159595 (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1159595#msg1159595)

I have never seen or worked on one of these late hydraulic set ups but I can see how the oil would pool in the cavity on the outside of the MS bearing and rise high enough to run down the MS into the primary. I would think a relief in the bottom of the area FSG marked with the red circle would allow fluid to drain rather then accumulate above the shaft level. Making it more of a splash system and less of a bath system. Could be as simple as your trans end cover is sumping.
Hard to tell without having pieces in hand so all just a guess on my part at this point.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on August 11, 2017, 05:03:22 AM
What FSG said in reply #221  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 11, 2017, 05:22:45 AM
Quote from: chipthedonkey on August 10, 2017, 03:41:52 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 10, 2017, 09:42:11 AM
I know it would really frost me if I took a trip on my brand new motorcycle and had to check the tranny every day. It would really ruin the fun.

Think how bad it would be to have to check fluids ever day, adjust and lube chains every morning in the hotel parking lot when you ride on a trip, patch your tubes on the side fo the rode and other regular stuff that no one should ever have to do on a motorcycle.  I sure am glad we never had to do stuff like that.  Checking a fluid every day?  Oh my goodness that would rune a hole trip!

Checking the fluids every day is no big deal, having to refill the tranny every 100 miles and drain the primary would end the trip for me.
It is not 1903 anymore. You do not have to do major maintenance every day to keep a motorcycle running. How would you feel if you bought a new car and had to put a quart of oil in the engine every 100 miles.

If I had just spent close to $30K for a motorcycle and I had to stop every 100 miles, drain the primary and refill the tranny  and the dealer said there was no repair he would get that motorcycle shoved up his backside. If your typical day of riding it to the corner bar and back it is no big deal, but I have been known to do 1,000 mile days. That would be 10 stops to drain and refill, it is not going to happen.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on August 11, 2017, 05:33:57 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 08, 2017, 06:59:01 AM
I am not convinced as of yet that this phenomenon is exclusive to the Milwaukee Eight, I serviced a 2016 FLTRU equipped with a hydraulic clutch a couple of days ago, the primary fluid level was at the point of running out the service hole in the cover and the transmission fluid level was extremely low on the stick.

It will be a while before I can confirm, but it sure looks suspicious.

Hmmm.... all twin cams got the narrow primary in '16. That said, my '15 Limited Low also has the narrow version and has never had a problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 11, 2017, 05:54:03 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 11, 2017, 04:41:04 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 08, 2017, 06:59:01 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 08, 2017, 06:06:56 AM
Over 68000 views and 100 pages of comment on this issue on another forum.
I would love to get to a solution on this.
How is it going Durwood?
The short story is that after 1200 miles and 2 dyno sessions including full tunes and over 60 max power runs my bike transferred 3oz of fluid.

This is much improved from the same transfer amount with less than 500 miles prior to modifying the gasket, so I opened the whole significantly more to see what happens.

I am not convinced as of yet that this phenomenon is exclusive to the Milwaukee Eight, I serviced a 2016 FLTRU equipped with a hydraulic clutch a couple of days ago, the primary fluid level was at the point of running out the service hole in the cover and the transmission fluid level was extremely low on the stick.

It will be a while before I can confirm, but it sure looks suspicious.


Interesting info, if it is a hydralic clutch issue and not a M-8 issue I would look to the pictures in this post
http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1159595#msg1159595 (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1159595#msg1159595)

I have never seen or worked on one of these late hydraulic set ups but I can see how the oil would pool in the cavity on the outside of the MS bearing and rise high enough to run down the MS into the primary. I would think a relief in the bottom of the area FSG marked with the red circle would allow fluid to drain rather then accumulate above the shaft level. Making it more of a splash system and less of a bath system. Could be as simple as your trans end cover is sumping.
Hard to tell without having pieces in hand so all just a guess on my part at this point.
Could very well be Eric, time will tell. I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on August 11, 2017, 05:33:57 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 08, 2017, 06:59:01 AM
I am not convinced as of yet that this phenomenon is exclusive to the Milwaukee Eight, I serviced a 2016 FLTRU equipped with a hydraulic clutch a couple of days ago, the primary fluid level was at the point of running out the service hole in the cover and the transmission fluid level was extremely low on the stick.

It will be a while before I can confirm, but it sure looks suspicious.

Hmmm.... all twin cams got the narrow primary in '16. That said, my '15 Limited Low also has the narrow version and has never had a problem.
It could be a coincidence but I have a hard time believing that someone filled that primary all the way to the service hole.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 11, 2017, 05:58:10 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on August 11, 2017, 05:03:22 AM
What FSG said in reply #221  :up:
We've been discussing doing the FSG mod after some further testing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigal51 on August 11, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
I can tell you my experience.  17 Fltru.  Went on 23 day trip to California.  Did over 8ooo miles.  Sometime on the way home I noticed It was getting a little hard to find neutral.  No big deal.  When I got home you guys already started this thread.  I read it and went to check the Tran and sure enough, the level didn't read on the dipstick.  I did another service on it and the primary was 12 oz overfilled.  Tranny was 12oz under filled.  I doubt it hurt anything.  shifts fine and neutral is easy to find.  Will try the fix soon. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 11, 2017, 11:21:36 AM
Quote from: bigal51 on August 11, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
I can tell you my experience.  17 Fltru.  Went on 23 day trip to California.  Did over 8ooo miles.  Sometime on the way home I noticed It was getting a little hard to find neutral.  No big deal.  When I got home you guys already started this thread.  I read it and went to check the Tran and sure enough, the level didn't read on the dipstick.  I did another service on it and the primary was 12 oz overfilled.  Tranny was 12oz under filled.  I doubt it hurt anything.  shifts fine and neutral is easy to find.  Will try the fix soon.

You will here the trans gears whine before any damage is done.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on August 11, 2017, 01:27:12 PM
Now have 2 with transfer to the Primary ..HD Fix......change the Crank seal...  :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 11, 2017, 01:50:39 PM
Quote from: HV on August 11, 2017, 01:27:12 PM
Now have 2 with transfer to the Primary ..HD Fix......change the Crank seal...  :emoGroan:

HV is the crank seal an update version or do they use the same seal as the original production?
Is the M-8 seal a double spring like the Twin cam or a single spring like the Evo?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on August 11, 2017, 03:03:17 PM
Same as original as far as I can find out...Ill check it out when we get the new seals....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 11, 2017, 07:15:20 PM
The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 11, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 11, 2017, 07:15:20 PM
The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet

Quote from: Durwood on August 11, 2017, 05:54:03 AM
I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.

I know you like your powervision Daren  :teeth:
but a green TTS would be very useful for this
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 12, 2017, 03:55:50 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 11, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 11, 2017, 07:15:20 PM
The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet

Quote from: Durwood on August 11, 2017, 05:54:03 AM
I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.

I know you like your powervision Daren  :teeth:
but a green TTS would be very useful for this

The Dynoware RT has the ability to run those sensors and graph them right on the dyno run. With the old WinPep 7 you could run up to 4 inputs on the graph through the analog box. The TTS green is nice if you have no dyno to use.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 04:54:38 AM
Quote from: HV on August 11, 2017, 03:03:17 PM
Same as original as far as I can find out...Ill check it out when we get the new seals....

Are you changing the spacer along with the seal?  I believe there's an updated apart number for the spacer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 12, 2017, 06:12:35 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 04:54:38 AM
Quote from: HV on August 11, 2017, 03:03:17 PM
Same as original as far as I can find out...Ill check it out when we get the new seals....

Are you changing the spacer along with the seal?  I believe there's an updated apart number for the spacer.
According to the dealer here, the part number didn't change. That's one reason why I didn't go for that yet.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 12, 2017, 07:02:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 12, 2017, 03:55:50 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 11, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 11, 2017, 07:15:20 PM
The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet

Quote from: Durwood on August 11, 2017, 05:54:03 AM
I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.

I know you like your powervision Daren  :teeth:
but a green TTS would be very useful for this

The Dynoware RT has the ability to run those sensors and graph them right on the dyno run. With the old WinPep 7 you could run up to 4 inputs on the graph through the analog box. The TTS green is nice if you have no dyno to use.

The green TTS is even better with the dyno
under controlled conditions
the pressure/vacuum gauge readings could be checked against any MAP and RPM values where migration may occur
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 07:55:35 AM
Quote from: Durwood on August 12, 2017, 06:12:35 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 04:54:38 AM
Quote from: HV on August 11, 2017, 03:03:17 PM
Same as original as far as I can find out...Ill check it out when we get the new seals....

Are you changing the spacer along with the seal?  I believe there's an updated apart number for the spacer.
According to the dealer here, the part number didn't change. That's one reason why I didn't go for that yet.

Not sure when they changed it.  The new HD checklist has replace both the seal and the spacer.  Steve verified this when they did his.  Apparently they are putting more of a bevel on the spacer, theory being that they previous sharp edge was possibly tearing the seal.  At least that's what i've been told.  How long ago did you inquire with the dealer about it?  Steve's was replaced about a week or so ago.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: steve2100 on August 12, 2017, 08:36:19 AM
Mine is migrating trans.fluid also to the primary i had gear oil in the trans.and had to add a few ounces ever so often.My clutch slipped and i drained the primary and it was over full and had the smell of gear oil.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 08:39:09 AM
I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. :scratch: I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me. :idunno:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 08:39:09 AM
I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. :scratch: I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me. :idunno:
Ron

I had planned on it but haven't had another one in with the problem.  I posted about venting through the derby cover probably a month ago but it got passed over lol
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 09:08:29 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 08:39:09 AM
I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. :scratch: I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me. :idunno:
Ron

I had planned on it but haven't had another one in with the problem.  I posted about venting through the derby cover probably a month ago but it got passed over lol
I think we were on the same on the venting as a test scenario , then we moved our thinking  into why additional venting was needed in the first place at least I did. Same page again on the gauge testing. :up: I know you will test it when the opportunity presents itself but there are several that can run it through it's paces, gauge installed however. Several sources of feedback is good also.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 09:08:29 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 08:39:09 AM
I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. :scratch: I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me. :idunno:
Ron

I had planned on it but haven't had another one in with the problem.  I posted about venting through the derby cover probably a month ago but it got passed over lol
I think we were on the same on the venting as a test scenario , then we moved our thinking  into why additional venting was needed in the first place at least I did. Same page again on the gauge testing. :up: I know you will test it when the opportunity presents itself but there are several that can run it through it's paces, gauge installed however. Several sources of feedback is good also.
Ron

My line of thought was additional venting is possible due to the smaller primary and transmission cavities.  I personally think the problem lies more in the trans than the primary, but independently venting the primary would quickly rule that whole side out.  MoCo seams to be throwing multiple things at it all at once hoping something sticks.  Problem with that is, if you try 10 different things at once and the problem is solved, which of the 10 things (or combo of) fixed it?  As I said before , i'll test the simple easy things, but it's really the MoCo's problem to solve. I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a new bike to HAVE to work on it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 12, 2017, 09:59:53 AM
A simple test on the dyno would be to record the engine pressure, primary pressure. and trans pressure while dyno tuning a bike. At the end you would be able to graph all three with rpm and see when and where the changes occur.

I more and more think this is a fliud trapped problem and not a gas pressure problem. Even with pressure you would need a lot of flow to transfer 22oz of heavey oil in vapor form.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: fwj on August 13, 2017, 06:12:06 AM
Hard to believe that HD didn't test the result of replacing the seal and the spacer before telling all dealers to change it. Sounds kind of unprofessional to me. Even a 2 man garage would work more systematically.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 13, 2017, 12:32:38 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 08:39:09 AM
I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. :scratch: I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me. :idunno:
Ron

I had planned on it but haven't had another one in with the problem.  I posted about venting through the derby cover probably a month ago but it got passed over lol
It didn't get passed over, at least not by me. I was in the middle of testing the gasket modification and didn't have an extra derby cover at the moment, but I do now.
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 12, 2017, 07:02:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 12, 2017, 03:55:50 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 11, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 11, 2017, 07:15:20 PM
The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet

Quote from: Durwood on August 11, 2017, 05:54:03 AM
I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.

I know you like your powervision Daren  :teeth:
but a green TTS would be very useful for this

The Dynoware RT has the ability to run those sensors and graph them right on the dyno run. With the old WinPep 7 you could run up to 4 inputs on the graph through the analog box. The TTS green is nice if you have no dyno to use.

The green TTS is even better with the dyno
under controlled conditions
the pressure/vacuum gauge readings could be checked against any MAP and RPM values where migration may occur
I have Winpep 8 and as Eric alluded to it has 4 analog inputs that will do the job if necessary but I honestly don't think it's needed, I believe some simple testing while monitoring the gauge will tell us what we need to know. If not, I will procure a 0-5v sensor and use the Dynaware RT to sample the data.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 02:50:08 PM
Quote from: Durwood on August 13, 2017, 12:32:38 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 12, 2017, 08:47:16 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 12, 2017, 08:39:09 AM
I really don't know why someone don't vac test the primary on a problem child and once and for all rule out or confirm a seal issue. :scratch: I don't own one so can't verify it myself. I still suspect possibly two areas. Venting, bearing drain or whatever as well as a source to multiply the oil transfer. The seal still seems to be a suspect area to me. :idunno:
Ron

I had planned on it but haven't had another one in with the problem.  I posted about venting through the derby cover probably a month ago but it got passed over lol
It didn't get passed over, at least not by me. I was in the middle of testing the gasket modification and didn't have an extra derby cover at the moment, but I do now.
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 12, 2017, 07:02:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 12, 2017, 03:55:50 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 11, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 11, 2017, 07:15:20 PM
The "half split rule" is the easiest way to trouble shoot a problem. 

It's often a problem applying the rule to motorcycles, but in the case of oil migration trannie to primary it's straight forward IMO.

It's either the primary sucking it across OR the trannie pumping it across.

I'd bang a vent into the primary and then see if the migration continues, if yes then the trannie is pumping it, if no then the primary is sucking it.

NOTE: easy for me to say this as I've no access to an M8, yet

Quote from: Durwood on August 11, 2017, 05:54:03 AM
I have a derby cover coming to modify with a nipple to use my pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor what's going on while on the dyno.

I know you like your powervision Daren  :teeth:
but a green TTS would be very useful for this

The Dynoware RT has the ability to run those sensors and graph them right on the dyno run. With the old WinPep 7 you could run up to 4 inputs on the graph through the analog box. The TTS green is nice if you have no dyno to use.

The green TTS is even better with the dyno
under controlled conditions
the pressure/vacuum gauge readings could be checked against any MAP and RPM values where migration may occur
I have Winpep 8 and as Eric alluded to it has 4 analog inputs that will do the job if necessary but I honestly don't think it's needed, I believe some simple testing while monitoring the gauge will tell us what we need to know. If not, I will procure a 0-5v sensor and use the Dynaware RT to sample the data.

Awesome,  I look forward to your results.  If you test it will you be putting the stock top gasket back on? Or issuing your modified one?   Seams like the best test would be in the state it was transferring the most.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 13, 2017, 03:24:31 PM
could test it both ways

Understand you are a busy man Daren
but no-one else is testing and sharing
I'm sure many appreciate your efforts    :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on August 13, 2017, 04:41:43 PM
Yes Darren, we are grateful for your efforts down here in OZ.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: steve2100 on August 13, 2017, 05:08:29 PM
Thanks for trying to figure this out some think they don't have this problem but i have seen people with 6,000 and then it starts.Mine does it sure hope the mods work anybody that has a m8 should thank you.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on August 13, 2017, 05:51:01 PM
So the MOCO is telling some dealers to replace the seal and the spacer thinking that the new M8 spacers may be tearing the gasket? If that were happening they must think the additional fluid in the primary must be coming from the crankcase.
So how would that explain why the transmissions are running low on fluid at the same time the primaries are filling up? Unless I am missing something here it sounds to me like the MOCO guys are lost in the woods and just fishing for things to try. Not good. I have not seen this detailed list they are giving to the dealers for things to rule out, but I wonder if they are even considering a venting problem with the cover gasket to be a possibility.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: WirgmanUSMC on August 13, 2017, 08:43:49 PM
Well, after some spirited mountain riding and lots of high speed highway riding I checked my fluid last night. Barely touching the stick. I'm on my way home, I think I'm gonna keep the tranny topped off but not bother draining the primary that way I can bring it to HD when I get back and have them drain and measure themselves to see how much fluid is over there.
I'm ready for this problem to be gone. Probably gonna put the stock pipes and cleaner back on and flash back to stock before taking it in though. I don't wanna get screwed.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: mcm on August 14, 2017, 04:58:53 AM
Wife and I went for a short ride a few days back.  She started getting a vibration and a lot of heat on the right side of her RK with less than 500 miles.  I rode it the last few miles home.  Bad vibration and cooked my leg.  Transmission just about dry and hot as hell.  Bike hasn't been on a dyno and she doesn't run high RPM.  Dealer has the bike.  I guess we'll see where it goes from here.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on August 14, 2017, 05:26:19 AM
      Here's something I found, same bike running spectro primary lube and 6 speed transmission lube it lost 6 oz. in a 1000 mi, run formula + in primary and transmission it lost 16 oz 1000 mi. Its on a 1000 mi trip now to get recheck. I'am also keeping track on another 17 FLHXS and two trikes.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 14, 2017, 05:35:14 AM
I suspect if the seal is the issue it will have a side effect of more oil carry over to the breather as well, since the umbrellas can't do their job of controlling case pressures as effectively. The pistons upward travel instead of creating a slight negative pressure will have an air opening at the main seal, pull air and fluid from the main shaft/pushrod hole in the trans to the primary. This unwanted gulped air in the case increases the amount of air in the case on the piston down stroke that has to go through the head breathers that would normally not be there. Since the trans is vented, there would be no resistance for this fluid to travel in this direction. I suspect the main seal if defective would tend to seal better in one direction then the other for most of this to play out or the result would be engine oil transfer to the primary instead.
I feel for the guys with issues. Pay that kind of coin and have to go through this BS.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 14, 2017, 05:49:34 AM
A friend of mine just bought a new RK. I really didn't want to tell him about this issue, but didn't want him blind sided by it either.
I'll keep tabs on his to see if it acts up.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: randyman on August 14, 2017, 02:46:33 PM
Drained transmission got just under 24 OZ drained primary got 28 OZ.  Completely stock 2017 M8 at 1000 miles
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on August 14, 2017, 02:49:49 PM
               Just did a 2106 FLHXS transmission down 16 oz. 500 miles. I have two more coming in in the next couple of days that I be checking.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on August 14, 2017, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 14, 2017, 05:03:36 PM
Quote from: 96349 on August 14, 2017, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.

Thanks,  I'm on ftequent contract worn Steve. His customer food check in south him a couple days back worn 4600 miles on his trip so far. Zero transfer with Steve's mod so far.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 14, 2017, 05:09:39 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 14, 2017, 05:03:36 PM
Quote from: 96349 on August 14, 2017, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.

Thanks,  I'm on ftequent contract worn Steve. His customer food check in south him a couple days back worn 4600 miles on his trip so far. Zero transfer with Steve's mod so far.

I figured out what you were saying, but you really have to double check your response before you post.   :teeth:    :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 14, 2017, 06:07:58 PM
his phone is on auto pilot Hoss   :teeth:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 14, 2017, 06:10:32 PM
My phone is a POS.  Siri hates me
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 02roadcling on August 14, 2017, 07:24:42 PM
I disabled both the Swipe feature and Autocorrect so I don't look like a 3rd grade dropout.

at lest if i skru up most guys can stil phigur out wut im tring to sae.

   cling
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 15, 2017, 05:22:28 AM
Quote from: 96349 on August 14, 2017, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.
Not at all. Like I said, the longer they play dumb, the more money they save. Worst case, the warranty runs out but I bet they will have a fix, on your dime of course. Now if the 2018s have this issue, your statement will be correct.
Ron
Ron
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on August 15, 2017, 07:09:17 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 14, 2017, 06:10:32 PM
My phone is a POS.  Siri hates me
:hyst: Siri hates my wife, she fights (curses) with her all the time, it's fun to watch, next time get Siri to take to Siri  :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on August 15, 2017, 12:08:00 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 15, 2017, 05:22:28 AM
Quote from: 96349 on August 14, 2017, 03:58:04 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
Steve Cole mentioned that his dealer wanted to replace the seal and the new type spacer in his bike. After doing so he said it made no difference. He is still of the mind it is likely a transmission issue. He has modified his transmission as well as the transmission of a customer of his. At this point he is waiting for the customer to return from vacation with his modified bike and he will re-test it on his dyno. If that looks promising he said he would have to test it out on several bikes before he is ready to declare a "fix". So we are closer than we were back in May of this year, but no fix yet. Apparently the MOCO is clueless. They have just recently started having dealers go through a bunch of steps to test out some of their theories as to what is causing the fluid to move. Not too much feedback on that yet.
Not at all. Like I said, the longer they play dumb, the more money they save. Worst case, the warranty runs out but I bet they will have a fix, on your dime of course. Now if the 2018s have this issue, your statement will be correct.
Ron
Ron
Ron

I have an absolute cure but it's timing sensitive...don't buy one until they get the basic bugs worked out.

Figuring out what is pushing or pulling fluid from one cavity to another should be easier than most grade school science fair
projects.

One thing about it if you pack the primary full of fluid the compensator should get lubed better.

At least posts stating this is a made up internet problem and not reality have stopped.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on August 15, 2017, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
After your explanation I understand. It sounds kind of far out though. At this point I guess they are trying to rule out everything.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: JYHD1 on August 16, 2017, 12:54:57 AM
After reading about the problems of trans fluid migrating to the primary, I checked the trans fluid in our 17' RK tonight and it's still at the full mark with 2,700 miles on it since the 1,000 mile service. Bel Ray 85W140 hypoid gear lube is what they put in it at the 1,000 mile service.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 16, 2017, 04:35:30 AM
Quote from: 96349 on August 15, 2017, 07:41:30 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 13, 2017, 06:53:49 PM
I believe the MoCo theory is/was the tear in the seal was allowing crankcase pressure to create a vacuum in the primary which in turn pulls the trans fluid through.   That was my point  venting the primary seperate to either prove this theory or disprove it.   Hopefully Darren will be able to test it,  I'm not sure when ill have another problem M8 in for a time to test it myself. Or if ill have the time to test even if i get one.
After your explanation I understand. It sounds kind of far out though. At this point I guess they are trying to rule out everything.

I think they are just trying anything.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on August 16, 2017, 04:50:00 AM
If you don't know where you are going, any path will take you there...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on August 16, 2017, 05:14:26 AM
     I had 3 16's in this week 2 were find 1 lose 16oz from transmission in 500 mi. The one that lost the oil had transmission work to take the neutral rattle out. There were a couple of parts that were change to the 17 part #. Now it has the oil problem. I would not think its the motor seal. Its a twin cam not a M8.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 16, 2017, 05:20:23 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on August 16, 2017, 05:14:26 AM
     I had 3 16's in this week 2 were find 1 lose 16oz from transmission in 500 mi. The one that lost the oil had transmission work to take the neutral rattle out. There were a couple of parts that were change to the 17 part #. Now it has the oil problem. I would not think its the motor seal. Its a twin cam not a M8.
I've had one 2016 which I mentioned earlier that the primary was overfull and the trans was low, but it's not had any work performed on it other than the service I just did...This one could have been a coincidence, but I honestly can't see someone filling the primary all the way to the access whole in the cover.

What parts were changed in the one you had issue with?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 16, 2017, 05:31:17 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 16, 2017, 04:50:00 AM
If you don't know where you are going, any path will take you there...

This is true. Even if the parts they are changing don't fix the problem,  its parts they can eliminate as the cause
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 16, 2017, 02:29:01 PM
Quote from: BUGLET on August 16, 2017, 05:14:26 AM
     I had 3 16's in this week 2 were find 1 lose 16oz from transmission in 500 mi. The one that lost the oil had transmission work to take the neutral rattle out. There were a couple of parts that were change to the 17 part #. Now it has the oil problem. I would not think its the motor seal. Its a twin cam not a M8.

Which 17 parts were used?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on August 16, 2017, 09:26:14 PM
Ok I'll speculate...to remove the neutral rattle noted in #403 replace the 2016's plain gear 35600104 COUNTERSHAFT XMSN 1ST GEAR with the 2017's 35600103 GEAR ASSEMBLY COUNTERSHAFT-FIRST (scissor gear). The 35467-06 INPUT SHAFT KIT is the same P/N for both years. The countershaft is the same P/N for 2016 and 2017 as well.

Ok this isn't an answer, but maybe....?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: tommy g on August 16, 2017, 10:21:23 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 16, 2017, 04:50:00 AM
If you don't know where you are going, any path will take you there...

The "quiet" Beatle.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on August 17, 2017, 07:10:21 AM
Is this oil transition issue pressure based or vacuum based?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 17, 2017, 07:44:43 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 17, 2017, 07:10:21 AM
Is this oil transition issue pressure based or vacuum based?

Therein lies the issue. It doesn't sound like it has been positively identified yet.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on August 17, 2017, 08:03:48 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on August 16, 2017, 09:26:14 PM
Ok I'll speculate...to remove the neutral rattle noted in #403 replace the 2016's plain gear 35600104 COUNTERSHAFT XMSN 1ST GEAR with the 2017's 35600103 GEAR ASSEMBLY COUNTERSHAFT-FIRST (scissor gear). The 35467-06 INPUT SHAFT KIT is the same P/N for both years. The countershaft is the same P/N for 2016 and 2017 as well.

Ok this isn't an answer, but maybe....?
I've been wondering for some time if that scissor gear is acting as a pump...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 17, 2017, 09:13:39 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 17, 2017, 07:44:43 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 17, 2017, 07:10:21 AM
Is this oil transition issue pressure based or vacuum based?

Therein lies the issue. It doesn't sound like it has been positively identified yet.
It has but mums the word. There is no way in hell all those people at MoCo haven't found out what causes it. HD is the X files and area 51 in the motorcycle world.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Scooterfish on August 17, 2017, 10:38:22 AM
I assume the longer HD remains mum the bigger the expense is for them to fix.  :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 17, 2017, 12:00:15 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 17, 2017, 09:13:39 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 17, 2017, 07:44:43 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 17, 2017, 07:10:21 AM
Is this oil transition issue pressure based or vacuum based?

Therein lies the issue. It doesn't sound like it has been positively identified yet.
It has but mums the word. There is no way in hell all those people at MoCo haven't found out what causes it. HD is the X files and area 51 in the motorcycle world.
Ron

I wouldn't be surprised if they found the problem, their probably looking for the cheapest way to fix it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dan89flstc on August 17, 2017, 02:16:15 PM
Quote from: Durwood on August 16, 2017, 05:20:23 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on August 16, 2017, 05:14:26 AM
     I had 3 16's in this week 2 were find 1 lose 16oz from transmission in 500 mi. The one that lost the oil had transmission work to take the neutral rattle out.   

Was the `16 that appeared to have the oil transfer issue a hydraulic clutch type?

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on August 17, 2017, 03:14:51 PM
   According to the paper work only two part #s where 17 #s one was 35600103 cs 1st gear and the other was 11000010 ball bearing for the cs. The rest of the part #s are the same that they changed.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on August 17, 2017, 05:32:40 PM
Quote from: BUGLET on August 17, 2017, 03:14:51 PM
   According to the paper work only two part #s where 17 #s one was 35600103 cs 1st gear and the other was 11000010 ball bearing for the cs. The rest of the part #s are the same that they changed.

And it's transferring trans oil because of the parts changeout to the 2017 1st countershaft scissor gear and bearing end housing bearing? I guess we could suspect either or both of the parts as the cause. The trans is a 2016 with factory gaskets so.......now what's the fix?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on August 17, 2017, 06:56:19 PM
Grabbed this image from a Google search. It's the countershaft scissor gear.

Speculation:

Could oil get moved to the center and through the end bearing during high rpm running? Might cause a surplus that gets transferred. Could the new 11000010 bearing allow for more oil transfer than the old? Or maybe a combination of factors.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on August 18, 2017, 11:12:20 PM
While it's spinning! I would've thought not. I guess we will see.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 19, 2017, 10:57:53 AM
I would think the cavity I circled in red would have to be full of oil up to the level of the center hole in the mainshaft to transfer the amount of oil we are seeing in the amount of time it is taking. Why not drill a drain hole back into the trans cavity at the bottom where I put the red arrow so that the oil can not be trapped and accumulate?

(http://www.harleytechtalk.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=3054)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on August 19, 2017, 11:35:24 AM
If the only changes to the 2016 transmission in Post #403 above were the two parts noted (2017 scissor gear/bearing) and if suspected lube transfer started as a result, then...why not re-install the 2016 gear and bearing...but one at a time if possible...and see what happens?

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 19, 2017, 01:22:55 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on August 19, 2017, 11:35:24 AM
If the only changes to the 2016 transmission in Post #403 above were the two parts noted (2017 scissor gear/bearing) and if suspected lube transfer started as a result, then...why not re-install the 2016 gear and bearing...but one at a time if possible...and see what happens?

Case was changed as well. It's smaller
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 19, 2017, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 19, 2017, 01:22:55 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on August 19, 2017, 11:35:24 AM
If the only changes to the 2016 transmission in Post #403 above were the two parts noted (2017 scissor gear/bearing) and if suspected lube transfer started as a result, then...why not re-install the 2016 gear and bearing...but one at a time if possible...and see what happens?

Case was changed as well. It's smaller

Chad we were talking about the 2016 bike in this post.

Quote from: BUGLET on August 16, 2017, 05:14:26 AM
     I had 3 16's in this week 2 were find 1 lose 16oz from transmission in 500 mi. The one that lost the oil had transmission work to take the neutral rattle out. There were a couple of parts that were change to the 17 part #. Now it has the oil problem. I would not think its the motor seal. Its a twin cam not a M8.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 19, 2017, 06:40:14 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 19, 2017, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 19, 2017, 01:22:55 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on August 19, 2017, 11:35:24 AM
If the only changes to the 2016 transmission in Post #403 above were the two parts noted (2017 scissor gear/bearing) and if suspected lube transfer started as a result, then...why not re-install the 2016 gear and bearing...but one at a time if possible...and see what happens?

Case was changed as well. It's smaller

Chad we were talking about the 2016 bike in this post.

Quote from: BUGLET on August 16, 2017, 05:14:26 AM
     I had 3 16's in this week 2 were find 1 lose 16oz from transmission in 500 mi. The one that lost the oil had transmission work to take the neutral rattle out. There were a couple of parts that were change to the 17 part #. Now it has the oil problem. I would not think its the motor seal. Its a twin cam not a M8.

:embarrassed: lol...oops.  at least I didn't have a bunch of typos!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 19, 2017, 06:51:41 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 19, 2017, 06:40:14 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 19, 2017, 04:59:12 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 19, 2017, 01:22:55 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on August 19, 2017, 11:35:24 AM
If the only changes to the 2016 transmission in Post #403 above were the two parts noted (2017 scissor gear/bearing) and if suspected lube transfer started as a result, then...why not re-install the 2016 gear and bearing...but one at a time if possible...and see what happens?

Case was changed as well. It's smaller

Chad we were talking about the 2016 bike in this post.

Quote from: BUGLET on August 16, 2017, 05:14:26 AM
     I had 3 16's in this week 2 were find 1 lose 16oz from transmission in 500 mi. The one that lost the oil had transmission work to take the neutral rattle out. There were a couple of parts that were change to the 17 part #. Now it has the oil problem. I would not think its the motor seal. Its a twin cam not a M8.

:embarrassed: lol...oops.  at least I didn't have a bunch of typos!!

What bothers me most is I can read the typo posts as good as the correct ones, I never was much good in english class.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on August 20, 2017, 09:47:10 AM
After reading this post I thought I would check my transmission. At 1,000 miles I changed it and filled it with 28 oz of Amsoil 75-110 severe duty and checked the level - OK. Now at 3,275 miles it was 8 oz down. Tomorrow it's going to the dealer. Also the rear drive belt goes from a tight 3/8 to over 3/4+ inches when I spin the rear wheel. I think Harley needs to fire some of the engineers and get better quality control.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on August 21, 2017, 07:59:00 AM
While I dont doubt that they hire the cheapest possible engineering labor, I think the reason they get these problems is because they cut every conceivable corner in making these bikes. They do it because they know they can, people will continue to buy Harley's whether they're garbage or not.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 21, 2017, 09:01:59 AM
I honestly don't think Harley's are garbage. I think they are a premium, comfortable, motorcycle. They try to incorporate modern features, but keep the original feel. And no manufacturer matches the paint, or fit and finish.
Yes, there are some pieces that do not seem to match the standard of the brand, but for the most part, they are pretty trouble free and dependable.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 21, 2017, 09:29:45 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 21, 2017, 09:01:59 AM
I honestly don't think Harley's are garbage. I think they are a premium, comfortable, motorcycle. They try to incorporate modern features, but keep the original feel. And no manufacturer matches the paint, or fit and finish.
Yes, there are some pieces that do not seem to match the standard of the brand, but for the most part, they are pretty trouble free and dependable.
Agreed. If we would leave them alone there would be nothing to do but change oil and ride.

As with any new model there will be a few things to work out, like this fluid transfer issue, and I for one am glad to be in on the ground floor as we discover the absolute fix for it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on August 21, 2017, 09:31:47 AM
I don't think they're garbage either, I was just attempting to make a point about where I think their priorities are. The only people that think Harley's are "premium" are Harley people, every one else pretty much thinks they are crap.  The M8 is a pretty important machine and it's absolutely mind boggling that they would let this happen. I really wanted to add a Road Glide next to my BMW and my street bob but I don't think that will be happening any time soon after reading this thread.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mulligan on August 21, 2017, 11:32:55 PM
just my 2 cts

i'm from Germany, Harley User for more than 20 years.
I bought recently a RGS (after 11 years Street Glide TC88) and put since March almost 10k KM on it. It is perfect for long distance yadda yadda yadda..... don't wanna repeat all that stuff again.

actual the RGS is standing at the dealership to get one of the first repair sets from Harley installed. Should be fixed end of week or latest next week. depends when the parts are rolling in. I'm looking really hard into this issue, checked the oil (with the dealer and mechanic) 4 times since June. evertytime some oz were missing. Oil got changed completely.

as soon as this issue is fixed on my bike, i'm going on a longer trip and check the fluids again.  I'll report.

But  i think harley will fix this issue (hope dies last), and i'm gonna enjoy the RGS again and again.

regards

Mulligan

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 22, 2017, 03:13:39 AM
Quote from: Mulligan on August 21, 2017, 11:32:55 PM
just my 2 cts

i'm from Germany, Harley User for more than 20 years.
I bought recently a RGS (after 11 years Street Glide TC88) and put since March almost 10k KM on it. It is perfect for long distance yadda yadda yadda..... don't wanna repeat all that stuff again.

actual the RGS is standing at the dealership to get one of the first repair sets from Harley installed. Should be fixed end of week or latest next week. depends when the parts are rolling in. I'm looking really hard into this issue, checked the oil (with the dealer and mechanic) 4 times since June. evertytime some oz were missing. Oil got changed completely.

as soon as this issue is fixed on my bike, i'm going on a longer trip and check the fluids again.  I'll report.

But  i think harley will fix this issue (hope dies last), and i'm gonna enjoy the RGS again and again.

regards

Mulligan

Interesting.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on August 23, 2017, 08:28:00 AM
Took my '17 RK to dealer to have them look at the transmission oil transfer problem and they said they never heard of that. Anyway they said bring it in and they will check the oil level and then for me to put on 500 miles and then they will check it again. In a few days I'll bring it back and let them check it again. I'll keep you updated on what happens.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: motorhogman on August 23, 2017, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: Bigs on August 23, 2017, 08:28:00 AM
Took my '17 RK to dealer to have them look at the transmission oil transfer problem and they said they never heard of that. Anyway they said bring it in and they will check the oil level and then for me to put on 500 miles and then they will check it again. In a few days I'll bring it back and let them check it again. I'll keep you updated on what happens.
   Bigs

Good Luck... "they said they never heard of that"   I guess that's a bit better than "they all do that"
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: les on August 23, 2017, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: motorhogman on August 23, 2017, 08:39:48 AM
Quote from: Bigs on August 23, 2017, 08:28:00 AM
Took my '17 RK to dealer to have them look at the transmission oil transfer problem and they said they never heard of that. Anyway they said bring it in and they will check the oil level and then for me to put on 500 miles and then they will check it again. In a few days I'll bring it back and let them check it again. I'll keep you updated on what happens.
   Bigs

Good Luck... "they said they never heard of that"   I guess that's a bit better than "they all do that"

I hope they took an accurate level reading of the primary fluid, and not just of the tranny fluid so they don't just have a narrow view of the tranny if the level goes down in it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on August 23, 2017, 04:44:23 PM
Another new M8 in for a first service........No tranny oil on the Dip Stick......Primary over Flowing when opened up  :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ViseGrips on August 24, 2017, 05:12:06 AM
 they all do that Brian. :wink:...so far it's a frustrating pita for some riders and techs isn't it though.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on August 24, 2017, 11:23:50 AM
I feel really sorry for anybody who takes the plunge and buys a new 2018. The transmissions have not been fixed yet so they are more than likely to have the same issue as those of us who purchased new 2017 M8 and expected a warranty fix. I have been having the problem for 4 months now and nothing has been resolved yet. Others have been dealing with it for longer than I have. It seems like the engineering staff at the MOCO has been of the opinion that it was impossible for this to happen and just wrote the complaints off as nonsense. Now as the problem is beginning to be more widespread they are having to take a closer look at it. At first they were replacing motors, then they were replacing transmissions and now they are replacing main seals with the spacer. Still no fix. I believe initially motors and transmissions were being recalled because they wanted to actually open them up for analysis. Now they are sending out the seals and spacers because they think that is where the problem is. I have not heard where replacing the seal and spacer has stopped the problem on anybodies bike yet. So where do they go now? For those people who think that something is making the fluid level rise up to the clutch push rod level and then somehow push or pull it down to the primary case...I think you have it correct. But what is making this phenomenon happen. Venting maybe? In the meantime I will just continue to check my fluid level every few days to head off any pending disaster. I just can't believe my transmission was designed to operate very long when there is zero oil on the transmission stick.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: steve2100 on August 24, 2017, 12:16:05 PM
This problem is being took care of like our government kick the can down the road my bike is a year old this month so i got a year hope it gets solved.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on August 24, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
One of the service guys from a different dealership said that the vent hole on the transmission is to small and causing the problem. I guess Harley thinks drilling it out will solve the problem. I should find out tomorrow.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on August 24, 2017, 07:09:51 PM
 The problems will be fixed with all issues, just takes time, just like the Twin Cam. What was it 2007 when Harley came out with hydraulic cam tensioners, but we still bought them. M8 will be the best motor Harley ever built, just work out a few bugs, probably catch some slack over that but what the hell. I have a RGS M8 and have issues with my transmission fluid in the primary. If I did it all over again I would still buy this bike.       


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 24, 2017, 08:05:25 PM
Quote from: Bigs on August 24, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
One of the service guys from a different dealership said that the vent hole on the transmission is to small and causing the problem. I guess Harley thinks drilling it out will solve the problem. I should find out tomorrow.
   Bigs

How big is the hole? Anything larger than a pin hole should be large enough. The only thing the vent needs to do is relieve air pressure as the primary and transmission warms up. It is not like there is a ton of air escaping.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 25, 2017, 04:43:33 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 24, 2017, 08:05:25 PM
Quote from: Bigs on August 24, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
One of the service guys from a different dealership said that the vent hole on the transmission is to small and causing the problem. I guess Harley thinks drilling it out will solve the problem. I should find out tomorrow.
   Bigs

How big is the hole? Anything larger than a pin hole should be large enough. The only thing the vent needs to do is relieve air pressure as the primary and transmission warms up. It is not like there is a ton of air escaping.

1/8" -3/16". Steve left his dipstick out and zip ties a rag over the fill hole and still transferred, I doubt it's a vent issue
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on August 25, 2017, 04:51:32 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 25, 2017, 04:43:33 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 24, 2017, 08:05:25 PM
Quote from: Bigs on August 24, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
One of the service guys from a different dealership said that the vent hole on the transmission is to small and causing the problem. I guess Harley thinks drilling it out will solve the problem. I should find out tomorrow.
   Bigs

How big is the hole? Anything larger than a pin hole should be large enough. The only thing the vent needs to do is relieve air pressure as the primary and transmission warms up. It is not like there is a ton of air escaping.

1/8" -3/16". Steve left his dipstick out and zip ties a rag over the fill hole and still transferred, I doubt it's a vent issue
The gasket vent mod slowed mine way down, but wasn't a clean kill......As soon as I get time, the pressure/vacuum test will commence just to rule out the crank seal and spacer theory.

Next step, perform a modification in the side cover like FSG and 1FSTRK suggested......
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 25, 2017, 05:51:21 AM
Quote from: Bigs on August 24, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
One of the service guys from a different dealership said that the vent hole on the transmission is to small and causing the problem. I guess Harley thinks drilling it out will solve the problem. I should find out tomorrow.
   Bigs
Good luck with that. I think he's grasping at straws for the solution. Air only requires the smallest of holes to be able to free vent as long as fluids don't bridge the hole and even that wouldn't cause pressure since the fluid would be pushed along in the hole.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on August 25, 2017, 06:23:52 AM
Remembering back in the AMF days, wasn't there a problem with engine oil draining into the primary, and that was not a seal issue, that was a casting issue with the cases? maybe throwing seals at the issue is not the solution  :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 25, 2017, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on August 25, 2017, 06:23:52 AM
Remembering back in the AMF days, wasn't there a problem with engine oil draining into the primary, and that was not a seal issue, that was a casting issue with the cases? maybe throwing seals at the issue is not the solution  :nix:

Max brought up porous cases on HDF yesterday.  Wouldn't the fluid have to travel through the trans case and the inner primary both though for this to happen?  Remember, there is a void between the 2 cases for the pulley.  I could see trans fluid getting into the engine oil pan through the bottom of the trans case.  But I don't see how it could get into the primary other than through the clutch pushrod passage
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on August 25, 2017, 07:57:42 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 25, 2017, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on August 25, 2017, 06:23:52 AM
Remembering back in the AMF days, wasn't there a problem with engine oil draining into the primary, and that was not a seal issue, that was a casting issue with the cases? maybe throwing seals at the issue is not the solution  :nix:

Max brought up porous cases on HDF yesterday.  Wouldn't the fluid have to travel through the trans case and the inner primary both though for this to happen?  Remember, there is a void between the 2 cases for the pulley.  I could see trans fluid getting into the engine oil pan through the bottom of the trans case.  But I don't see how it could get into the primary other than through the clutch pushrod passage
you're right, and I'd hate to think both cases are now made from piss porous  poor manufacturing but since no seal replacement has resolved the issue 100% I'm thinking anything is possible  :crook:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on August 25, 2017, 08:32:30 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 25, 2017, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on August 25, 2017, 06:23:52 AM
Remembering back in the AMF days, wasn't there a problem with engine oil draining into the primary, and that was not a seal issue, that was a casting issue with the cases? maybe throwing seals at the issue is not the solution  :nix:

Max brought up porous cases on HDF yesterday.  Wouldn't the fluid have to travel through the trans case and the inner primary both though for this to happen?  Remember, there is a void between the 2 cases for the pulley.  I could see trans fluid getting into the engine oil pan through the bottom of the trans case.  But I don't see how it could get into the primary other than through the clutch pushrod passage

Max ment a porous crank case acting like a bad oil seal imho

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on August 25, 2017, 08:51:14 AM
Regarding the top gasket cover vent hole: Several people who frequent here made the hole a little larger first and then elongated the  hole maybe an inch or so to add some venting to other chambers. Since elongating the hole I have not heard if it was successful or not.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on August 25, 2017, 09:04:37 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on August 25, 2017, 08:32:30 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on August 25, 2017, 07:43:28 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on August 25, 2017, 06:23:52 AM
Remembering back in the AMF days, wasn't there a problem with engine oil draining into the primary, and that was not a seal issue, that was a casting issue with the cases? maybe throwing seals at the issue is not the solution  :nix:

Max brought up porous cases on HDF yesterday.  Wouldn't the fluid have to travel through the trans case and the inner primary both though for this to happen?  Remember, there is a void between the 2 cases for the pulley.  I could see trans fluid getting into the engine oil pan through the bottom of the trans case.  But I don't see how it could get into the primary other than through the clutch pushrod passage

Max ment a porous crank case acting like a bad oil seal imho

Karl

OK wow, I didn't look at it that way.  So Max theory is possible porous engine case pulling a vacuum through primary and sucking trans fluid into primary.  We're really grabbing at straws now lol.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 25, 2017, 12:10:32 PM
The problem I have with the engine or primary vacuum therories is there would need to be air flow to carry the oil. The M/S is the air vent system for the primary so why wouldn't the engine or priamry suck air in through the trans vent and down the top of the M/S opening the same way the venting normally works, after all air is way easier to move than Formula plus.

I really wish someone around here had one of these, this is becoming way more complicated than it needs to be.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on August 25, 2017, 05:17:22 PM
Well I racked up the 500 miles the dealer asked me to do and took it to him to check. He checked it and said it was at the same level. I asked him if he checked the primary and he said no that it was to hot. Not exactly happy so I called Harley. Talked to the guy there and he didn't seem to know anything about the transfer so I told him about what was happening to my bike and not I have a file number for the problem. We'll see where it goes from here. Need more  :oil: for one and less  :oil: for the other.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on August 26, 2017, 05:04:12 AM
    Just did another 17 SGS 3K down 18 oz. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SlowRacer on August 26, 2017, 09:30:17 AM
I have 500 miles on a 2017 SG and want to try quieting down the transmission with Shockproof. In case I have migration, can Redline Shockproof hurt the clutch? Or should I just use something like Mobil 20-50 in there until I see if I have a problem?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on August 26, 2017, 12:16:45 PM
Until the transfer issue is solved, run formula + in the 17 and newer bikes.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 26, 2017, 01:33:50 PM
I would not recommend running M1 20w-50 in the transmission, it prefers gear lube rather than motor oil. Formula plus will work, for both the tranny and primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on August 26, 2017, 02:55:15 PM
Just throwing this out there
at first I thought mine had the issue,  but now I am not so sure. I have recently done a 1200km ride and where the RG was bouncing off the speed limiter for 50km stretch's (lets just say a friend on a 106ci softy couldn't keep up LOL) and to my surprise my oil levels have not changed

Have a 3000k ride coming up next month so will see how that goes :chop:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SlowRacer on August 26, 2017, 04:49:18 PM
ok thanks, will run Formula + while determining if I have transfer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on August 26, 2017, 06:20:38 PM
Yes Bobs bike did initially have the alleged fault. Interesting how the oil migration is hilighted on a dyno. I tend to ride mine through the suburbs a lot and my oil is down another 50 ml over 1000 Km. I think the vacuum gauge on the primary will help mitigate the answer to this.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on August 26, 2017, 06:33:55 PM
Verify fluid levels, then ride 50 MPH in second gear for 5 minutes, then turn around and head home same way.  Recheck fluid levels. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on August 26, 2017, 07:55:16 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 26, 2017, 06:33:55 PM
Verify fluid levels, then ride 50 MPH in second gear for 5 minutes, then turn around and head home same way.  Recheck fluid levels.

is a 195km/hr in 6th for like 5 to 10mins thae same :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: twincamzz on August 27, 2017, 03:48:57 AM
I have been reading this thread with great interest as I have a 2017 Limited Low that I purchased last August 27th when the M8 first came out.Bike now has 13,700+ miles on it. 6 months ( 7000 miles ) ago the dealer replaced the secondary clutch actuator & clutch push rod under warranty for odd noise in the diaphragm in actuator. When I got the bike home from that service I dumped the transmission fluid & refilled to spec. Yesterday I checked the fluid level in transmission & was 4 ounces low. Topped transmission fluid off & rode to dealer. Talked with service manager... surprisingly, he was aware of problem as one other person at my dealership is experiencing same issue. Service manager said the factory says the fix is the new seal & spacer at output shaft of motor, just like I have read here. Dealer noted problem exists on my bike without making me go through process of dye in transmission, etc. Parts are back ordered until October so I will ride & monitor fluid levels. In my mind it is hard to link this seal and spacer to the problem, but nothing else to do but try and let factory figure it out. Got home & drained primary fluid and refilled to spec.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: fwj on August 27, 2017, 08:42:47 PM
1000km ago I got a new transmission, new crankshaft seal and spacer. Didn't solve the issue. Had to top off approx 0,2l.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 28, 2017, 05:27:07 AM
Quote from: fwj on August 27, 2017, 08:42:47 PM
1000km ago I got a new transmission, new crankshaft seal and spacer. Didn't solve the issue. Had to top off approx 0,2l.
Good info. Let's see if the 18s have the same issue. I sure hope not.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on August 28, 2017, 05:47:50 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 28, 2017, 05:27:07 AM
Quote from: fwj on August 27, 2017, 08:42:47 PM
1000km ago I got a new transmission, new crankshaft seal and spacer. Didn't solve the issue. Had to top off approx 0,2l.
Good info. Let's see if the 18s have the same issue. I sure hope not.
Ron

I'd have to assume that since there's no fix for the '17s the '18s have it too.

Y'know.... certainly a lot of HD buyers are dirtbags like me, but there are also some pretty well heeled buyers at the top end. If it turns out HD is knowingly selling a defective product, a class action lawsuit wouldn't shock me.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on August 28, 2017, 06:35:55 AM
I'd bet the Softails do not, touring may, haven't seen any new part numbers.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mulligan on August 28, 2017, 08:39:53 AM
got new crankshaft seal and spacer  (no new trans - is still shifting :wink:)

Got the bike back on saturday, did some riding (around 300km) on the weekend, oil is still looking good... But i have to do a longer ride (time issue).

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: steve2100 on September 01, 2017, 03:51:52 PM
Need to keep this thread going need a fix bad.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on September 02, 2017, 08:16:42 AM
All we are doing now is rehashing "old" news. Until the MOCO gets off their hind quarters and devotes some engineering types to figure this out we are going nowhere. This is not the Moon Rover or the Space Shuttle. It is a damn motorcycle transmission. Defecate or get off the pot MOCO! If they think motorcycle sales have been slow up to this point, wait until word of this engineering fiasco gets around.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on September 02, 2017, 06:21:06 PM
Any of you guys call Harley and tell the problem your having and get a file number?
You can call: 1-800-258-2464 or 1-414-343-4056
I called the 1-800 number and got a guy right away told him the problem and a file number.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on September 02, 2017, 08:17:15 PM
Why not run Bel-Ray Gear Saver in both? It's designed for the transmission and the clutch. Run the 85W.

http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-gear-saver-transmission-oil (http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-gear-saver-transmission-oil)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borrec on September 03, 2017, 02:38:30 AM
Quote from: Bigs on September 02, 2017, 06:21:06 PM
Any of you guys call Harley and tell the problem your having and get a file number?
You can call: 1-800-258-2464 or 1-414-343-4056
I called the 1-800 number and got a guy right away told him the problem and a file number.
   Bigs

Yes I did, also my dealer and reported it to NHTSA.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on September 03, 2017, 08:57:07 AM
    Working OT just check another 16  SGS trans down 9 oz, 3400 mi all stock.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on September 03, 2017, 10:25:45 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 02, 2017, 08:17:15 PM
Why not run Bel-Ray Gear Saver in both? It's designed for the transmission and the clutch. Run the 85W.

http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-gear-saver-transmission-oil (http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-gear-saver-transmission-oil)

They either come with syn 3 , or formula + , trans and  pri.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on September 04, 2017, 01:03:03 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on September 03, 2017, 10:25:45 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 02, 2017, 08:17:15 PM
Why not run Bel-Ray Gear Saver in both? It's designed for the transmission and the clutch. Run the 85W.

http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-gear-saver-transmission-oil (http://www.belray.com/bel-ray-gear-saver-transmission-oil)

They either come with syn 3 , or formula + , trans and  pri.

I meant may as well run the same fluid if it's going to be recycled from one box to the other as it runs.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on September 04, 2017, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 04, 2017, 01:03:03 PM
I meant may as well run the same fluid if it's going to be recycled from one box to the other as it runs.

Pull the drain plugs for the primary and tranny, plumb them together with a small pump, and just circulate the oil! :potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on September 04, 2017, 05:38:40 PM
 I wouldn't want metal from the chain and sprocket and clutch fibers in my transmission.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on September 04, 2017, 06:00:15 PM
There's several million motorcycles with a common sump for engine, clutch, and transmission. Some even have an oil filter.  But yes, if they can be kept separate why not?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on September 04, 2017, 06:16:25 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on September 04, 2017, 06:00:15 PM
There's several million motorcycles with a common sump for engine, clutch, and transmission. Some even have an oil filter.  But yes, if they can be kept separate why not?

I agree. It's the best case scenario. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on September 05, 2017, 02:31:20 AM
Do they have a chain and sprocket.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on September 05, 2017, 04:57:45 AM
Quote from: hd06 on September 05, 2017, 02:31:20 AM
Do they have a chain and sprocket.

The primary drive is chain and sprockets, with some clutch material thrown in.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on September 07, 2017, 03:02:44 AM
   Sorry I should clarified I was thinking of other bikes then Harley.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on September 07, 2017, 11:37:20 AM
Harley is making a real statement by not rectifying this problem.  Whatta way to showcase your talent!!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on September 07, 2017, 03:39:12 PM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on September 07, 2017, 11:37:20 AM
Harley is making a real statement by not rectifying this problem.  Whatta way to showcase your talent!!!

I'd bet they don't have the slightest clue as to fixing it. They've relied on the aftermarket to fix their screw-ups in the past, why not do it again.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: boooby1744 on September 07, 2017, 05:21:46 PM
They're probably checking this thread daily...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Grayrider on September 07, 2017, 06:13:28 PM
I hope they are reading because I was in the market for an M8 but just cannot pull the trigger!
Every time I look at one I wonder if and how long it will be back at the dealer.
I know many are happy but just as many are unhappy due to problems.
And I keep looking for the fix without hearing it is there and reading about problems on the 18's now as well.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on September 08, 2017, 07:05:12 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on September 07, 2017, 11:37:20 AM
Harley is making a real statement by not rectifying this problem.  Whatta way to showcase your talent!!!
Doesn't seem to matter Rick. People keep buying regardless, just to live the dream.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on September 08, 2017, 08:36:48 AM
Quote from: rbabos on September 08, 2017, 07:05:12 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on September 07, 2017, 11:37:20 AM
Harley is making a real statement by not rectifying this problem.  Whatta way to showcase your talent!!!
Doesn't seem to matter Rick. People keep buying regardless, just to live the dream.
Ron

Most new buyers don't have a clue about any of the issues that gets a post on this site. If they have the $$ it's down the rd they go with all the chrome and go. Heard the 19 models will have a  lab top built into the gas door on the  cvo's . Now that's a seller for sure. Don't worry about running a dry tranny.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on September 08, 2017, 09:24:36 AM
Quote from: Grayrider on September 07, 2017, 06:13:28 PM
I hope they are reading because I was in the market for an M8 but just cannot pull the trigger!
Every time I look at one I wonder if and how long it will be back at the dealer.
I know many are happy but just as many are unhappy due to problems.
And I keep looking for the fix without hearing it is there and reading about problems on the 18's now as well.
Same here. In lieu of some announced fix I will be taking a serious look at the new Yamaha Transcontinental and hanging on to my softail.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdbikedoc on September 08, 2017, 07:06:39 PM
My thoughts are leaning towards the slipper clutch ,releasing causes suction pulling oil down the pushrod  :fish:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on September 09, 2017, 04:28:51 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 08, 2017, 09:24:36 AM
Quote from: Grayrider on September 07, 2017, 06:13:28 PM
I hope they are reading because I was in the market for an M8 but just cannot pull the trigger!
Every time I look at one I wonder if and how long it will be back at the dealer.
I know many are happy but just as many are unhappy due to problems.
And I keep looking for the fix without hearing it is there and reading about problems on the 18's now as well.
Same here. In lieu of some announced fix I will be taking a serious look at the new Yamaha Transcontinental and hanging on to my softail.

The Transcontinental looks like a nice bike. Well thought out
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on September 09, 2017, 05:11:10 AM
Quote from: hdbikedoc on September 08, 2017, 07:06:39 PM
My thoughts are leaning towards the slipper clutch ,releasing causes suction pulling oil down the pushrod  :fish:

I was thinking something on the clutch too, but only the clutch spinning at high RPM causing a low air pressure in the center of the clutch causing it to pull lube through the shaft/push rod. It would explain why this problem is worst the harder you run the engine.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FLHRI_2004 on September 09, 2017, 05:32:37 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 09, 2017, 04:28:51 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 08, 2017, 09:24:36 AM
Quote from: Grayrider on September 07, 2017, 06:13:28 PM
I hope they are reading because I was in the market for an M8 but just cannot pull the trigger!
Every time I look at one I wonder if and how long it will be back at the dealer.
I know many are happy but just as many are unhappy due to problems.
And I keep looking for the fix without hearing it is there and reading about problems on the 18's now as well.
Same here. In lieu of some announced fix I will be taking a serious look at the new Yamaha Transcontinental and hanging on to my softail.

The Transcontinental looks like a nice bike. Well thought out

Well, it may be a "nice" bike, but it's so damned ugly.  I just can't get used to some of the modern lines of both the Jap bikes and their cars.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on September 09, 2017, 08:13:14 AM
Trans Pressure seems to be the issue, along with a poor crankshaft seal and a vacuum issue. I am going to carry out the gasket mod Darren demonstrated. I am also going to externalise my breathers to prevent all that variable vacuum in the intake. Every little bit helps.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Grayrider on September 09, 2017, 09:21:46 AM
I will keep riding my EVO for now.
A little noisy but it starts and runs fine!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: dogger on September 10, 2017, 09:24:29 PM
Or....a K1600B
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on September 11, 2017, 04:40:31 AM
Quote from: dogger on September 10, 2017, 09:24:29 PM
Or....a K1600B

Another convert!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on September 11, 2017, 06:02:47 AM
As I get ready to enter retirement in the spring I would like to move up to a M8 from my 2002 FLHTC ( still going to keep it, they won't give me anything for it anyway) but jast can't do it with these issues out there. I really am not a fan of the hydraulic clutches. Have ridden a few and don't like the feel. Guessing maybe around 2020 would be a good time, should have most of the bugs worked out by then hopefully. TC had problems also for a few years.

I am very impressed with Durwoods results with the Cyclerama cam and exhaust👍

Not impressed with the mother ship though, disappointing. Was at a dealer last week killing some time. Hot stuff kid salesman chats me up. I ask him some questions, oil consumption was one. He tells me these motors are designed to use oil...😳. I told him he was nuts then really started with pointed questions. He quickly handed me off to the sales manager who was listening and disappeared. I asked the SM what was up with the "designed to use some oil" statement. He let out a long sigh and said " yeah, I heard him say that". We had a decent discussion from there. He admitted he his 2017 114 had sumping and other issues. Got a rebuild courtesy of HD. Hasn't tried it out yet. He has not heard of any transmission oil into the primary problems though, that was on the 2016's and earlier..😳. I left at that point.

Uh oh, probably should have put this in the buy M8 or wait thread...not enough coffee yet. Feel
free to move it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FLHRI_2004 on September 11, 2017, 09:07:40 AM
Quote from: klammer76 on September 11, 2017, 06:02:47 AM. . . I really am not a fan of the hydraulic clutches. Have ridden a few and don't like the feel. . .

I don't like 'em either.  The 2018 Heritage still has a cable clutch; rode one at the dealer demo Saturday.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Grayrider on September 12, 2017, 07:29:17 PM
I thought I might like the Heritage but the rattle can black paint job look on everything has turned me off. At least the Fatboy has some polished and chrome effects and sweet wheels.
Very disappointed in the Heritage models I have seen and over here dealers only allowed one of each for now. Checked Heritage at a few dealers on line and didn't see anything that made me look twice. Plus with the motor issues I am not ready to open my wallet yet!
Have waited for the 18's to be impressed but still waiting.
Rats! Foiled again!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Moparnut72 on September 12, 2017, 08:55:25 PM
I wasn't too keen on the Fat Boy when I first saw pictures but after seeing it in person it is really growing on me. I generally favor spoke wheels but the wheels on the Fat Boy are really nice. I wonder if that satin looking chrome would keep it's look or would go flat or easily stain.
kk
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on September 13, 2017, 07:08:32 AM
I didn't know the Fatboy had satin nacelle and exhaust, along with some of the other pieces until I saw one in person. Not really sure if I'm a fan.
I certainly don't like the brown primer on the Heritage. It used to be the premium model of the Softail line, now they are trying to rat it out. Confusing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Tollbooth on September 13, 2017, 08:27:25 AM
I am in the state of confusion. Called 2 dealers. Asked the service department about this problem,(M8 trans fluid leaking in primary). BOTH said they have not heard or had any bikes with this situation.
Was going to buy a new Limited but not this year.
No wonder sales are so low. I'm not the only non-buyer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06myway on September 13, 2017, 08:32:42 AM
this situation because it's a forum and there's like a doz people discussing the problem, doesn't make it widespread.... like the tensioner shoes.... never ran into anyone who had a problem with them before the hydraulic upgrade... reading the forums you'd think everyone had or would have had the problem already... not saying the current issue isn't real, but it may be very very isolated less then 1% of the bikes built have it.... just saying....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on September 13, 2017, 11:16:35 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on September 13, 2017, 08:32:42 AM
this situation because it's a forum and there's like a doz people discussing the problem, doesn't make it widespread.... like the tensioner shoes.... never ran into anyone who had a problem with them before the hydraulic upgrade... reading the forums you'd think everyone had or would have had the problem already... not saying the current issue isn't real, but it may be very very isolated less then 1% of the bikes built have it.... just saying....

quite true,

now for a dealer to say they had not had any bikes with this situation is plausible,

but for a dealer to say they've not heard of this situation, well that beggars disbelief.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on September 13, 2017, 12:04:24 PM
It's a real issue and it's more than any bullshit 1% comment...get real. 

When the dealer's staff starts checking fluid levels instead of just changing fluids they will figure it out...maybe.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Not-too-late on September 13, 2017, 12:31:43 PM
Have over 5K miles on a 2017 Ultra Limited. Just wrapped up a 3k plus ride and I pushed it hard in mountains, traffic and 85mph plus for hours and hours, holding at 95 for stretches and reaching 100.
Still no migrating. Running perfectly.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Grayrider on September 13, 2017, 01:04:17 PM
You must be one of the 99%
I have been to 3 dealers, 2 in Canada and one in Detroit.
Not one has heard of any oil migrating or had any M8 issues!
As if.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on September 13, 2017, 01:22:49 PM
I love how the internet perpetuates myths...must be the reason truth gets ignored at times.

If you look back in this thread HV hadn't noticed/heard any issues at the dealership he's at...then they started checking fluids and found 3 inside a few days and added another after that.

Ignorance doesn't mean there isn't an issue.

Once again I personally talked to the OP of this thread...he's been an Indy for years and the bike in question is his personal bike.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on September 13, 2017, 05:38:53 PM
Some other observations ....... Its plain to see if your not looking for it.....your not going to see it.....its not something that slaps you in the face as a BIG Failure or Stand out issue........It also looks like its not always happening on the same bikes.. all the time .....more a result of Riding Types....if the Bike is used with High RPM Engine breaking it MAY make it do it....May not .....also HD seems to be confused as to whats the Cure ...we have been waiting for over a Month for parts to fix one bike ( Customer has a loner ) Bikes ridden on long flat roads ( Cali to Vegas types ) may never see it.....Mountain areas...Yes if rode in one particular manner .... Dealers that have Staff who do not watch Forums ( 75% of them ) may never see it or notice it EVER .....and so far no Damages have been noted aside from low oil levels and high Levels ......how long this will take to really Damage a part is hard to say  :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on September 13, 2017, 06:43:54 PM
Quote from: Grayrider on September 13, 2017, 01:04:17 PM
You must be one of the 99%
I have been to 3 dealers, 2 in Canada and one in Detroit.
Not one has heard of any oil migrating or had any M8 issues!
As if.

Not heard of it? or not admitting it!

My bet is most dealers will not disclose a problem that has occurred in a relatively low number of motorcycles to a possible buyer. Admit nothing, and sell a bike. Confess that there may be a problem and a possible buyer might walk away.

In 2006 I asked a salesman about the tensioner issues on the early Twin Cam, he said he had never heard of an issue. At the same time a friend had his bike in the same dealer getting tensioners replaced under warranty.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on September 13, 2017, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: Not-too-late on September 13, 2017, 12:31:43 PM
Have over 5K miles on a 2017 Ultra Limited. Just wrapped up a 3k plus ride and I pushed it hard in mountains, traffic and 85mph plus for hours and hours, holding at 95 for stretches and reaching 100.
Still no migrating. Running perfectly.
H-D Should hire you as a test rider . Looks like you have a one of the bikes put together on a wedsday.  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on September 13, 2017, 07:33:57 PM
Ill bet most of the Sales guys at our shop have no idea this is going on....Most Sales guys have no clue what happens in the Service Dept
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on September 13, 2017, 08:18:45 PM
One of the dealers told me that like on the 1,000 mile check they don't check how much oil comes out they just drain it and refill and on a 5,000 check just drain and refill and if no leaks underneath no need to check the transmission. On the two Harleys I had before if I didn't see a leak underneath I never checked the transmission. Now on this new RK I can easily smell the Amsoil 75W-110 severe duty trans oil in the primary. This transmission deal sucks.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on September 13, 2017, 09:42:12 PM
Quote from: HV on September 13, 2017, 07:33:57 PM
Ill bet most of the Sales guys at our shop have no idea this is going on....Most Sales guys have no clue what happens in the Service Dept
Oh you have got that right!!!
Sales managers drum it into their heads-"Don't worry about what goes on back there, concentrate on making a sale out here. You are a salesman, not a mechanic".
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on September 14, 2017, 02:35:35 AM
 That's in any business.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on September 14, 2017, 04:57:40 AM
Big flat rate shops dont give techs time to do anything but drain and refill...all about the #s people....Two more local Dealers were just bought by large Car Sales Groups.....only gonna get worst my Friends
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on September 14, 2017, 07:14:26 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on September 13, 2017, 06:43:54 PM
Quote from: Grayrider on September 13, 2017, 01:04:17 PM
You must be one of the 99%
I have been to 3 dealers, 2 in Canada and one in Detroit.
Not one has heard of any oil migrating or had any M8 issues!
As if.

Not heard of it? or not admitting it!

My bet is most dealers will not disclose a problem that has occurred in a relatively low number of motorcycles to a possible buyer. Admit nothing, and sell a bike. Confess that there may be a problem and a possible buyer might walk away.

In 2006 I asked a salesman about the tensioner issues on the early Twin Cam, he said he had never heard of an issue. At the same time a friend had his bike in the same dealer getting tensioners replaced under warranty.
True. Early days of our oiler development , they would not admit to compensator issues either so the oiler was in their view unneeded. In 2014 it seemed it was the best thing since sliced bread when they came out with it. You had to know the right person for the real scoop. Beer helps.  Hell, they probably still won't admit there was a problem between 07-13. This migration thing will get resolved with time, or probably already has, unknown to most of us at this point as to how.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on September 14, 2017, 08:52:38 AM
I think a lot of you have no idea how a Dealership actually works in the real world......HD does NOT send notes or any other comments to any part of a Dealership letting them know about on going issues of any Kind......The Service Manager may know if he has been talking to a Service Rep about an exact issue ....unless its a Blatant Recall or Tech Tip sent out No one will know anything even if you think they do...Sales guys would know nothing .....Unless the Dealers employees frequent a Forum such as this they would not hear anything about on going issues and even then would not believe 90% of what they read.... Even a Tech attending a Factory Service Course will only get info related to the Repair and Trouble Shooting of the Topic at hand ....the instructors are following a course outline ...thats ALL ....and with the State of things at the MOCO right now even getting a part from the wharehouse is as easy as pulling a tooth  :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on September 14, 2017, 09:54:36 AM
Quote from: HV on September 14, 2017, 08:52:38 AM
I think a lot of you have no idea how a Dealership actually works in the real world......HD does NOT send notes or any other comments to any part of a Dealership letting them know about on going issues of any Kind......The Service Manager may know if he has been talking to a Service Rep about an exact issue ....unless its a Blatant Recall or Tech Tip sent out No one will know anything even if you think they do...Sales guys would know nothing .....Unless the Dealers employees frequent a Forum such as this they would not hear anything about on going issues and even then would not believe 90% of what they read.... Even a Tech attending a Factory Service Course will only get info related to the Repair and Trouble Shooting of the Topic at hand ....the instructors are following a course outline ...thats ALL ....and with the State of things at the MOCO right now even getting a part from the wharehouse is as easy as pulling a tooth  :banghead:
That pisses me off to no end. One reason I like HD is parts were at most one week away if needed. As you know we can't order from the states online so no gain that way even if I find it online at a dealer there, which I did.  Took me one month for a rear brake line order here in Ontario . :banghead: As bad as metrics are to get parts for time wise, if this will continue in the HD parts supply there won't be much difference. So much for some claiming having a dealer all over the place with owning a HD if trip repairs are needed  because chances of speedy fix while on a trip will be slim to nil in this case. Not happy with what I'm seeing lately.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on September 14, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
I agree 100% Ron....a few years back....over night for 90% of the parts....now.....Over a month  ( if your Lucky )
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on September 14, 2017, 12:25:39 PM
Quote from: HV on September 14, 2017, 10:51:39 AM
I agree 100% Ron....a few years back....over night for 90% of the parts....now.....Over a month  ( if your Lucky )
HV, what is the reason for this?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on September 14, 2017, 12:37:29 PM
All the whare house etc have been re organised and moved......I see the Unions pulled out too something about HD Hiring Temp Staff and cutting back #s...all = a $hit Show
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on September 14, 2017, 03:52:26 PM
Not good news for those of us considering a new bike...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Not-too-late on September 14, 2017, 04:02:32 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on September 13, 2017, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: Not-too-late on September 13, 2017, 12:31:43 PM
Have over 5K miles on a 2017 Ultra Limited. Just wrapped up a 3k plus ride and I pushed it hard in mountains, traffic and 85mph plus for hours and hours, holding at 95 for stretches and reaching 100.
Still no migrating. Running perfectly.
H-D Should hire you as a test rider . Looks like you have a one of the bikes put together on a wedsday.  :up:

I do feel fortunate, but must admit to checking the tranny level often. Never gave it a thought in the past.
I suppose its possible that the migration will happen in the future. I bought at discount an extended warrantee because its a first year motor. That may come in handy.
I suspect the bikes affected represent a small percentage. Its going to be mighty interesting to learn what the actual cause is.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on September 14, 2017, 05:18:30 PM
Quote from: HV on September 14, 2017, 12:37:29 PM
All the whare house etc have been re organised and moved......I see the Unions pulled out too something about HD Hiring Temp Staff and cutting back #s...all = a $hit Show
Wow, very disappointing. Company is in free fall. No leadership? Who knows. WE are some what spoiled here in the States, can get anything fairly quickly....for now anyway.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on September 14, 2017, 05:53:45 PM
I remember mentioning to the local dealer service manager that I did a top end rebuild in three days, including ordering parts. I asked him if they could do a top end in three days, he just laughed and said it would be at least a week, probably two weeks with time to get all the parts.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on September 14, 2017, 06:00:14 PM
Quote from: HV on September 14, 2017, 08:52:38 AM
I think a lot of you have no idea how a Dealership actually works in the real world......

Sure, but I find it hard to believe that sales would not know of cam tensioner issues by 2006! The problems with the M8 I can understand, new bike, not out to the public that long.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: lucasg on September 14, 2017, 06:40:09 PM
Quote from: Grayrider on September 13, 2017, 01:04:17 PM
You must be one of the 99%
I have been to 3 dealers, 2 in Canada and one in Detroit.
Not one has heard of any oil migrating or had any M8 issues!
As if.
Grayrider,
Not sure where you are in Canada;  I'm in Ontario.  One of the busiest dealers in the GTA has a whole whack of left over 2017 Touring models(M8).  Same answer from every dealer here as well"only thing we've had an issues with on these new bikes was the initial oil line clamp that wasn't tightened properly from the factory, otherwise they've been excellent and trouble free."  I personally don't know anyone who owns an M8 bike so I honestly can't say I heard of any problems first hand.  What's disappointing is you'd think they'd be willing to deal on left over bikes, yikes.... You'd be lucky to get $500 off... Lol😩
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: blackhillsken on September 15, 2017, 05:24:27 AM
Had a '17 FLHX 103 on the dyno for stage one tuning that just didn't sound right after lots of tuning time. I hadn't changed the trans oil. Don't remember the mileage, but it was low. Began to sort of whine (even through the headphones). Found out about this issue here after I was done. Added 20 oz to the trans & drained 20oz from the primary. He then went on a 1500 mile trip with no problems. He is having his dealer work on it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on September 15, 2017, 01:36:23 PM
Just a though could the exhaust close to trans. build a lot of heat and push the fluid in the primary.   :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Grayrider on September 15, 2017, 02:58:10 PM
'Not sure where you are in Canada;  I'm in Ontario'
Southern ON. just across from Detroit.

I know if I bought a new Harley and was having any of these problems, my salesman would be well aware of the problem - from me.
And when none of them asked me 'where did you hear that' makes me really wonder what they know!
But, as we hear, many new bikes are running good too.
So, I guess, buyer be aware.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 05cvoeg on September 19, 2017, 04:00:58 PM
I showed this to a dealer just the other day acted liked like they never heard of it
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on September 19, 2017, 04:50:10 PM
 Though he mite say they all do that.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: twincamzz on September 20, 2017, 03:49:01 AM
I picked my 2017 Ultra Limited Low up from the dealer day before yesterday. They replaced crankshaft seal & spacer for the trans fluid migration to primary problem. My motorcycle had lost 4 ounces of trans fluid in 7000 miles, not near as bad as others have reported, but still a problem in my eyes. Headed out today to Natural Bridge State Park to visit one of favorite places on Earth.  Time will tell if this really is the fix.  :chop:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on September 20, 2017, 05:14:27 PM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.

Maybe that'll keep'm from playing dumb and giv'n ya the stroke job.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on September 20, 2017, 06:29:22 PM
They are not playing dumb. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 04:49:22 AM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.
Know a club rider who couldn't convince his dealing there was a problem. He took redline tranny fluid (the pepto bismal stuff), and clear primary fluid to his dealer and paid to have them install both. Took the bike home, road it around for a couple weeks, then took it back to the dealer to check levels. His tranny was 8 ounces low. Guess what color this primary fluid was? Rhymes with pink.  Irma kinda screwed up riding here for the last few weeks but hoping to see him this weekend on his backup bike and hear the poop. Unfortunately there is no lemon law for bikes in Fla. ATM. Ridiculous considering the amount of bikes registered in this state.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: motorhogman on September 21, 2017, 07:40:20 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 04:49:22 AM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.
Know a club rider who couldn't convince his dealing there was a problem. He took redline tranny fluid (the pepto bismal stuff), and clear primary fluid to his dealer and paid to have them install both. Took the bike home, road it around for a couple weeks, then took it back to the dealer to check levels. His tranny was 8 ounces low. Guess what color this primary fluid was? Rhymes with pink.  Irma kinda screwed up riding here for the last few weeks but hoping to see him this weekend on his backup bike and hear the poop. Unfortunately there is no lemon law for bikes in Fla. ATM. Ridiculous considering the amount of bikes registered in this state.

I thought the lemon law was Federal ?   Have to look into that.. That would mean the Feds don't consider bike purchases worthy of consumer protection laws.. ? 
I have just ASSumed it covered all new motor vehicles..  Ya know what happens when Ya ASSume...

It appears lemon laws are complicated !
http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/ (http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 08:02:01 AM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 21, 2017, 07:40:20 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 04:49:22 AM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.
Know a club rider who couldn't convince his dealing there was a problem. He took redline tranny fluid (the pepto bismal stuff), and clear primary fluid to his dealer and paid to have them install both. Took the bike home, road it around for a couple weeks, then took it back to the dealer to check levels. His tranny was 8 ounces low. Guess what color this primary fluid was? Rhymes with pink.  Irma kinda screwed up riding here for the last few weeks but hoping to see him this weekend on his backup bike and hear the poop. Unfortunately there is no lemon law for bikes in Fla. ATM. Ridiculous considering the amount of bikes registered in this state.

I thought the lemon law was Federal ?   Have to look into that.. That would mean the Feds don't consider bike purchases worthy of consumer protection laws.. ? 
I have just ASSumed it covered all new motor vehicles..  Ya know what happens when Ya ASSume...

It appears lemon laws are complicated !
http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/ (http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/)
List of states which have motorcycle lemon laws. Florida? No
http://burdgelaw.com/PDF/State%20Motorcycle%20Lemon%20Law%20Summaries.pdf (http://burdgelaw.com/PDF/State%20Motorcycle%20Lemon%20Law%20Summaries.pdf)

Looks like more states don't have them then do.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: motorhogman on September 21, 2017, 09:08:06 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 08:02:01 AM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 21, 2017, 07:40:20 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 04:49:22 AM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.
Know a club rider who couldn't convince his dealing there was a problem. He took redline tranny fluid (the pepto bismal stuff), and clear primary fluid to his dealer and paid to have them install both. Took the bike home, road it around for a couple weeks, then took it back to the dealer to check levels. His tranny was 8 ounces low. Guess what color this primary fluid was? Rhymes with pink.  Irma kinda screwed up riding here for the last few weeks but hoping to see him this weekend on his backup bike and hear the poop. Unfortunately there is no lemon law for bikes in Fla. ATM. Ridiculous considering the amount of bikes registered in this state.

I thought the lemon law was Federal ?   Have to look into that.. That would mean the Feds don't consider bike purchases worthy of consumer protection laws.. ? 
I have just ASSumed it covered all new motor vehicles..  Ya know what happens when Ya ASSume...

It appears lemon laws are complicated !
http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/ (http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/)
List of states which have motorcycle lemon laws. Florida? No
http://burdgelaw.com/PDF/State%20Motorcycle%20Lemon%20Law%20Summaries.pdf (http://burdgelaw.com/PDF/State%20Motorcycle%20Lemon%20Law%20Summaries.pdf)

Looks like more states don't have them then do.

Sure looks that way..

There is the chance that Federal law may cover ?  From my few minutes of searching it appears you need a consumer protection lawyer to get answers as how that law applies.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on September 21, 2017, 01:22:25 PM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 21, 2017, 07:40:20 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 04:49:22 AM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.
Know a club rider who couldn't convince his dealing there was a problem. He took redline tranny fluid (the pepto bismal stuff), and clear primary fluid to his dealer and paid to have them install both. Took the bike home, road it around for a couple weeks, then took it back to the dealer to check levels. His tranny was 8 ounces low. Guess what color this primary fluid was? Rhymes with pink.  Irma kinda screwed up riding here for the last few weeks but hoping to see him this weekend on his backup bike and hear the poop. Unfortunately there is no lemon law for bikes in Fla. ATM. Ridiculous considering the amount of bikes registered in this state.

I thought the lemon law was Federal ?   Have to look into that.. That would mean the Feds don't consider bike purchases worthy of consumer protection laws.. ? 
I have just ASSumed it covered all new motor vehicles..  Ya know what happens when Ya ASSume...

It appears lemon laws are complicated !
http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/ (http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/)

Lemon laws for recreational vehicles are controlled on the state level.  I do have a customer was successful in a lemon law case in a state that didn't cover MC's.  He got them on an interstate commerce deal.  Somehow his lawyer convinced a judge that since HD built the bike in Milwaukee and had it shipped to Colorado with the intent to sell it it was interstate commerce, therefore covered by Federal laws. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: lucasg on September 23, 2017, 08:32:57 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on September 21, 2017, 01:22:25 PM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 21, 2017, 07:40:20 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 21, 2017, 04:49:22 AM
Quote from: WirgmanUSMC on September 20, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
My bike had been at harley for almost a month. They said they couldn't duplicate the transfer. Rode it a whole 40 miles they said. Service guy gave me a bunch of attitude and the whole "well there isn't a service bulletin on it, I know you "read about it on the internet" but nothing is wrong with your bike."
Convinced them to put dye in my tranny and took my bike home. Gonna dog on it and put some more miles on it then bring it back with a Lemon Law letter from a lawyer. I'm NC that gives them 20 days to fix the problem or buy the bike back.
Know a club rider who couldn't convince his dealing there was a problem. He took redline tranny fluid (the pepto bismal stuff), and clear primary fluid to his dealer and paid to have them install both. Took the bike home, road it around for a couple weeks, then took it back to the dealer to check levels. His tranny was 8 ounces low. Guess what color this primary fluid was? Rhymes with pink.  Irma kinda screwed up riding here for the last few weeks but hoping to see him this weekend on his backup bike and hear the poop. Unfortunately there is no lemon law for bikes in Fla. ATM. Ridiculous considering the amount of bikes registered in this state.

I thought the lemon law was Federal ?   Have to look into that.. That would mean the Feds don't consider bike purchases worthy of consumer protection laws.. ? 
I have just ASSumed it covered all new motor vehicles..  Ya know what happens when Ya ASSume...

It appears lemon laws are complicated !
http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/ (http://www.lemonlawcase.com/new-motorcycle-lemon-law/)

Lemon laws for recreational vehicles are controlled on the state level.  I do have a customer was successful in a lemon law case in a state that didn't cover MC's.  He got them on an interstate commerce deal.  Somehow his lawyer convinced a judge that since HD built the bike in Milwaukee and had it shipped to Colorado with the intent to sell it it was interstate commerce, therefore covered by Federal laws.


Awesome Chad !!   :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on September 25, 2017, 03:47:35 AM
Just did a 3500k trip through the pilbara over 4 days, got home give her a bath and checked fluids, no dramas,,,,,,,,,,,,yeap heard correct no migration
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on September 25, 2017, 08:04:27 AM
That's great news RXBob. If I know you , you would have averaged 70-80 mph.
You have external breathers too!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RXBOB on September 25, 2017, 03:44:07 PM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on September 25, 2017, 08:04:27 AM
That's great news RXBob. If I know you , you would have averaged 70-80 mph.
You have external breathers too!

YES and YES
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: randyman on September 25, 2017, 03:45:17 PM
1600 miles since last oil change all levels perfect.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on October 12, 2017, 03:26:06 PM
On HD's SIP website it shows a recent bulletin (Tech Article) regarding the transfer of trans oil into the primary.  Unfortunately I don't have access to see what the bulletin says but here's the number/name for all of those that have dealers who "never heard of that before"

TA0022: Transmission to Primary Oil Transfer
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hattitude on October 12, 2017, 07:05:50 PM
FSG beat you to it...

TA0022: Transmission to Primary Oil Transfer... it was issued on 9/27/17 and it's listed in the Tech Articles section here on this forum...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on October 13, 2017, 01:42:58 AM
What the TA0022 tells us:

- excessive oil transfer with some engines started with the 2014 TC touring models and continued with the M8 touring models (2017/2018)
- little transfer is normal
- if it is more than 5 oz in 5,000miles action is needed
- fix for affected TC engines is replacing the oil seal and spacer
- no fix for the M8 yet. Just check oil level after 1,000 miles if transfer was more than 5 oz in 5,000miles.

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 13, 2017, 04:14:59 AM
It sounds like there are two different problems and that is causing some confusion when it come to diagnosing and curing each problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on October 13, 2017, 04:44:55 AM
Thanks FSG for posting a copy of TA0022.  I was hoping that someone would and now it's available for everyone to read.

As I stated in my post, I didn't have access to the document so I couldn't read or copy it.
And as HATTITUDE was kind enough to point out, "FSG beat you to it..." Yes he certainly did because he had a copy of the document.

Looks like only HD is late since it states that the condition could exist since the release of the "Rushmore" models.

 

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on October 13, 2017, 05:18:21 AM
      Here,s one the 16 that was updated with 17 parts, first check 500 mi transferred 16 0z. Drain and refill 700.mi transferred nothing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on October 13, 2017, 03:47:24 PM
JMOOC  the problem was introduced in 2014 (see the Tech Forum) and has since been compounded with the introduction of the A&S Clutch.

(https://i.imgur.com/nSRXxjB.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on October 13, 2017, 04:40:24 PM
You're probably right.
Just a question .... Was the A&S Clutch ever used in the cable operated clutch 2014+ touring models?  I guess that would be limited to the 2014-2016 Road King.
I also wonder if the gear that eliminates the neutral rattle on the 2017+ models contributes to the condition.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ozbob on October 13, 2017, 06:45:24 PM
Are the 2018 cable operated clutch mechanisms in the softails compatible to the 17-18 tourer's
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on October 13, 2017, 07:40:04 PM
Quote from: Ozbob on October 13, 2017, 06:45:24 PM
Are the 2018 cable operated clutch mechanisms in the softails compatible to the 17-18 tourer's
Yes, you'd have to use lever/perch/cable(both halves)/side cover/ball& ramp assy/pushrod/throw out bearing/adjuster/nut. Couple hundred bucks in parts to switch over.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on October 13, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
My '15 Limited Low has the A&S clutch, as well as the narrow primary that went system wide in '16. Never a drop transferred. I don't even check the fluid level between changes any more.  :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 13, 2017, 07:52:45 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on October 13, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
My '15 Limited Low has the A&S clutch, as well as the narrow primary that went system wide in '16. Never a drop transferred. I don't even check the fluid level between changes any more.  :idunno:

Manual or hydraulic clutch?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on October 13, 2017, 08:26:37 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on October 13, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
My '15 Limited Low has the A&S clutch, as well as the narrow primary that went system wide in '16. Never a drop transferred. I don't even check the fluid level between changes any more.  :idunno:

and it has a pre Brembo Slave Cylinder which may not react as much to the A&S Clutch action

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on October 13, 2017, 08:42:06 PM
one easy thing to do is change those nyloc nuts (item #7), at least the one on the mainshaft, to a thin nut with no dome and use loctite, this would increase the clearance to the hyd inside cover and not push as much oil into the slave cylinder recess

(https://i.imgur.com/Vd6kfz1.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on October 13, 2017, 08:58:12 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on October 13, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
My '15 Limited Low has the A&S clutch, as well as the narrow primary that went system wide in '16. Never a drop transferred. I don't even check the fluid level between changes any more.  :idunno:

My '16 Limited has never transferred an measurable amount either. 10,000-15,000 miles on the tranny lube and still up on the stick. The engine uses very little oil too, 7,500 miles on the oil change and I added a few ounces when I changed the oil filter. Best Twin Cam I have owned out of the three years, '05 and '10.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on October 13, 2017, 10:42:29 PM
 After reading the SIP info I checked the oil level in the tranny of my '14 Street Glide. The dipstick was dry (>5 oz off)... :angry:

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on October 14, 2017, 06:50:39 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 19, 2017, 10:57:53 AM
I would think the cavity I circled in red would have to be full of oil up to the level of the center hole in the mainshaft to transfer the amount of oil we are seeing in the amount of time it is taking. Why not drill a drain hole back into the trans cavity at the bottom where I put the red arrow so that the oil can not be trapped and accumulate?

(http://www.harleytechtalk.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=3054)
I believe that Eric and FSG have the right idea..If the oil doesn't accumulate there is nothing to transfer. I am trying this next.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on October 14, 2017, 08:17:54 AM
So what are you actually saying? The oil accumulates in the area circled? Surely drilling out the area below the shaft , would assist with drainage.
Any thoughts.?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 14, 2017, 08:31:51 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on October 14, 2017, 08:17:54 AM
So what are you actually saying? The oil accumulates in the area circled? Surely drilling out the area below the shaft , would assist with drainage.
Any thoughts.?
Makes sense. With oil in that cavity the slave would act like a piston pump to some extent on each shift. Surely the MoCo Einsteins would have figured this out if that was the cause. Are the 18s having the same issue?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 14, 2017, 09:21:10 AM
The slave pumping would add to it but just the fact that it is designed to funnel oil in and has no return will cause oil to continuely run down the main shaft into the primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on October 14, 2017, 10:39:48 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on October 14, 2017, 08:17:54 AM
So what are you actually saying? The oil accumulates in the area circled? Surely drilling out the area below the shaft , would assist with drainage.
Any thoughts.?
That's what I am thinking...If a guy blocks the entry then the primary can't vent, so with Eric's example it shouldn't accumulate to the point where it can get to the main shaft.

This time I am going to go back to the Schaeffer's 75/140 in the trans, as it is green in color and I will be able to detect transfer without having to log a bunch of miles.

A trip to the dyno, then pull the derby cover and see if the Formula plus has changed colors and/or smell. It definitely makes sense.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on October 15, 2017, 12:05:09 AM
While the tranfer problem got worse with the M8 the problem started with the 2014 Rushmore models (Twin Cam). Comparing the pre 2014 CVO with the 2014 Rushmore (both with the same hydraulic clutch system) I can only find the pushrod as being different. A guy over here in Germany installed the pre 2014 pushrod in his M8 and stopped the oil transfer so far.  :scratch:

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on October 15, 2017, 03:49:41 AM
 I'm sure this small problem will get worked out.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on October 15, 2017, 08:05:52 AM
Quote from: hd06 on October 15, 2017, 03:49:41 AM
I'm sure this small problem will get worked out.

sure it will, when HD does the next major design change, like in 20 years! :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 15, 2017, 08:25:20 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on October 15, 2017, 08:05:52 AM
Quote from: hd06 on October 15, 2017, 03:49:41 AM
I'm sure this small problem will get worked out.

sure it will, when HD does the next major design change, like in 20 years! :hyst:
Good one. Sad but true. Based on what I'm seeing with this issue and several others, no more new HDs for me. Matter of fact, if it wasn't for my current trouble free v rod I'd be riding a different brand. Issues like this are normally dealt with in a swift manor or customers change brands. A year in and same bs.  I was really hoping the M8 would be something special. Well,  it isn't in my view.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on October 15, 2017, 08:35:16 AM
A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 15, 2017, 08:46:00 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 15, 2017, 08:35:16 AM
A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.
True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. :hyst: MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on October 15, 2017, 09:30:11 AM
"Us gearheads must really piss them off."
No doubt in my feeble mind!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: chinashop bull on October 16, 2017, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 15, 2017, 08:46:00 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 15, 2017, 08:35:16 AM
A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.
True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. :hyst: MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron

I love these elitist comments. Why should the average rider care what powers their bikes as long as it works?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on October 16, 2017, 04:57:03 AM
Quote from: chinashop bull on October 16, 2017, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 15, 2017, 08:46:00 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 15, 2017, 08:35:16 AM
A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.
True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. :hyst: MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron

I love these elitist comments. Why should the average rider care what powers their bikes as long as it works?

You lost ?
This is a tech site
Most guys don't care what makes their bike run
some do
and the tech minds on this site are a lot closer to solving the transmission fluid transfer than the Moco who prefer that the masses don't understand enough to threaten the bottom line

Grab another KoolAid 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Will-Run on October 16, 2017, 07:06:04 AM
 :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 16, 2017, 07:33:52 AM
Well, it was his first post here. We can forgive him once, but only once. :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SLAATY on October 16, 2017, 08:23:20 AM
Quote from: Durwood on October 14, 2017, 06:50:39 AMI believe that Eric and FSG have the right idea..If the oil doesn't accumulate there is nothing to transfer. I am trying this next.

Glad to see YOURE willing to try it. I'm gutless when it comes to drilling holes in tranny cases.

Please forward results.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SLAATY on October 16, 2017, 08:26:51 AM
Quote from: chinashop bull on October 16, 2017, 02:00:23 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 15, 2017, 08:46:00 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 15, 2017, 08:35:16 AM
A small thing to remember: the majority of folks either aren't having an issue, or unaware an issue exists- most folks shift @ 3K, and never go above 80 MPH, so they don't have transfer issues.
My bet? There's many more happy riders that never get heard from, than unhappy riders. Of the unhappy riders, who are having issues, I'd guess less than 10% actually change brands.
True, unaware describes it best. Most HD riders I've talked to don't even know what a compensator is. :hyst: MoCo's favorite customers. Us gearheads must really piss them off.
Ron

I love these elitist comments. Why should the average rider care what powers their bikes as long as it works?

Because for many of us, the ability to repair a bike was requisite to owning one. Ever broke down in the middle of nowhere? Probably not...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on October 16, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on October 16, 2017, 10:18:23 AM
Quote from: HV on October 16, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter
Brian, are these 2016 bikes or 2017 models?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on October 16, 2017, 11:14:44 AM
Quote from: HV on October 16, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter
I was going to try this, but the replacement seal and sleeve have the same part number as the original and supposedly some guys had this done and their problem still remains.

Thanks for posting HV.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 12:59:35 PM
Quote from: Durwood on October 16, 2017, 11:14:44 AM
Quote from: HV on October 16, 2017, 09:18:36 AM
Just a quick update on the two bikes we found with transfer Issues.....Replaced the Crank Seal and sleeve as per HD TA0022  and after re checking both bikes with more Mileage on them both seem to be OK now ....we still are checking bikes in for services but our riding season here is getting shorter
I was going to try this, but the replacement seal and sleeve have the same part number as the original and supposedly some guys had this done and their problem still remains.

Thanks for posting HV.

The replacement spacer has a bevel on it as to not tear the seal.  That's the only difference.  A lot have reported no change in migration after the change,  at least on M8's.  It seams to be a good fix in some of the Rushmores
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on October 16, 2017, 04:34:49 PM
Both 2017s    spacer is an updated one they say  :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 05:06:39 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

I stayed before that you could easily drill and tap a hole in a,derby cover, barbed fitting and vinyl tube and separately vent the primary.  I'll try it when i get another one in with a known transfer issue.   It still wouldn't be very particle for HD to go that route if it's a fix.  They'll be looking for a cheaper fix.  Or they'll just raise the spec of the acceptable transfer amount.  Right now they are saying a,transfer of 5 oz. In 5k miles is, within spec.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on October 16, 2017, 05:35:38 PM
Yep, just vent the primary on its own and I bet the problem will go away.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on October 16, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 06:09:29 PM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on October 16, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.

If you are HD and you answer to your stock holders you care about 7,000-10,000 miles.  Thais the average mileage a HD rider puts in his bike in 2 years in the US.  If they can get parts to last 20k miles they are ahead of the game financially.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 07:13:21 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 05:06:39 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

I stayed before that you could easily drill and tap a hole in a,derby cover, barbed fitting and vinyl tube and separately vent the primary.  I'll try it when i get another one in with a known transfer issue.   It still wouldn't be very particle for HD to go that route if it's a fix.  They'll be looking for a cheaper fix.  Or they'll just raise the spec of the acceptable transfer amount.  Right now they are saying a,transfer of 5 oz. In 5k miles is, within spec.

I was just sugesting a quick cheap test method without altering parts on the bike.
I think the PCV valve test would show that the fliud would still transfer, I stand by the idea that the fluid is running down the MS because it is trapped in the clutch piston compartment and cannot drain low enough, fast enough back out to the transmission case. The pressure difference may exist but lacks any real air flow to transfer heavy fliud from one compartment to another in the time and volume seen here.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 07:56:59 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 07:13:21 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 05:06:39 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed

I stayed before that you could easily drill and tap a hole in a,derby cover, barbed fitting and vinyl tube and separately vent the primary.  I'll try it when i get another one in with a known transfer issue.   It still wouldn't be very particle for HD to go that route if it's a fix.  They'll be looking for a cheaper fix.  Or they'll just raise the spec of the acceptable transfer amount.  Right now they are saying a,transfer of 5 oz. In 5k miles is, within spec.

I was just sugesting a quick cheap test method without altering parts on the bike.
I think the PCV valve test would show that the fliud would still transfer, I stand by the idea that the fluid is running down the MS because it is trapped in the clutch piston compartment and cannot drain low enough, fast enough back out to the transmission case. The pressure difference may exist but lacks any real air flow to transfer heavy fliud from one compartment to another in the time and volume seen here.

I completely agree.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 05:03:06 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed
PCV valves are not sealed one way as many think. There's a calibrated leak on the closed side, based on the engine it's designed for.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 17, 2017, 05:19:53 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 05:03:06 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed
PCV valves are not sealed one way as many think. There's a calibrated leak on the closed side, based on the engine it's designed for.
Ron

Yes but it will work to change air flow in enough to confirm if the engine is pulling the oil from the trans.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on October 17, 2017, 05:34:56 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 17, 2017, 05:19:53 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 05:03:06 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 16, 2017, 03:32:23 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 16, 2017, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: 14GuineaPig on October 16, 2017, 03:07:17 PM
If the transfer of oil is caused by vacuum in primary, which seems to be the reason for replacing the seal & spacer, why not try venting the primary independent of the transmission?  From what I have read it sounds like transmission oil is being pulled thru the center of the transmission shaft where the clutch pushrod resides.  Apparently the MoCo feels that a vacuum is created by the engine, and if the seal is damaged, a vacuum exists in the primary.  AFAIK the primary is vented thru the transmission shaft and a vent in the top of the transmission.  If oil were to accumulate inside the transmission, around the open end of the shaft, then oil could be sucked into the primary if a vacuum existed.  My guess would be that if the primary was vented, that vacuum would no longer pull the oil.
On the other hand, if the oil is actually being pumped/forced thru the shaft by the clutch actuator, then venting the primary would not solve the problem.  JMO
It would be an easy test, but not very feasible of a fix for the MoCo

Fast test would be go to your local (fill in the blank) auto parts and buy a cheap PCV valve. Stick it on the trans vent hose so it can blow out but not suck in. Fixed
PCV valves are not sealed one way as many think. There's a calibrated leak on the closed side, based on the engine it's designed for.
Ron

Yes but it will work to change air flow in enough to confirm if the engine is pulling the oil from the trans.
I have a spare derby cover now to install a fitting to test pressure/vacuum in the primary, also could hook the gauge up to the trans vent to see if there is vacuum or pressure before installing the modified derby cover.

Fortunately I have been too busy of late to get back on this, but see a little daylight now.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 06:04:10 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on October 16, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.
No kidding. Now 5cc per 5k is acceptable. That might work. Hell, they've brain washed us into thinking .005-.006 crank runout is now acceptable even though that was out of spec in the first HD engine ever built in the 1900s :banghead:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 17, 2017, 10:21:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 06:04:10 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on October 16, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.
Hell, they've brain washed us into thinking .005-.006 crank runout is now acceptable  :banghead:
Ron

Specs good up to .012" now according to HD
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 03:00:30 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 17, 2017, 10:21:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 06:04:10 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on October 16, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.
Hell, they've brain washed us into thinking .005-.006 crank runout is now acceptable  :banghead:
Ron

Specs good up to .012" now according to HD
Yes, I know that but what I meant is some now accept .006 as being ok with that new Flintstone warranty avoidance tolerance of .012 brought about by all them 07 cranks taking a dump all over the place. That new tolerance save them a lot of coin as you know.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on October 17, 2017, 04:29:16 PM
 Maybe the best thing is stop checking trans fluid if enough of them go bad they will do something about it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 17, 2017, 04:38:00 PM
Quote from: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 03:00:30 PM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 17, 2017, 10:21:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on October 17, 2017, 06:04:10 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on October 16, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
When cranks are out of spec. or oil will not stay in a given compartment change/raise the spec.

I sure wish that mentality would end up costing the MOCO more than a proper fix.
Hell, they've brain washed us into thinking .005-.006 crank runout is now acceptable  :banghead:
Ron

Specs good up to .012" now according to HD
Yes, I know that but what I meant is some now accept .006 as being ok with that new Flintstone warranty avoidance tolerance of .012 brought about by all them 07 cranks taking a dump all over the place. That new tolerance save them a lot of coin as you know.
Ron

I gotcha now.  I guess when the share holders care more about money than quality this is what you get.  17th
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on October 19, 2017, 09:54:23 AM
 Trans, there is a fix !
OK, I know some of you might not believe me on this but I'm really telling the fact's here on this. I told in another thread on HDF that HD was going to buy back a CVO from a guy I knew because of the transfer of the Trans fluid to the primary, the engineer from HD came down and said, I'll buy your bike back but I can also fix it. The OP said how you know you can fix it and the engineer said, I'll guarantee this will.
So the OP said, since bikes are higher this year than ever he's willing to take a chance on his 2017 CVO fix. Guess what the fix was, C'mon guess, LOL.
The fix was a baffle that goes in the tranny, yep, the same ole baffle that everyone has had in the trans. for years. Seems HD decided that the baffle cost too much money to install in the new models that they'd save some doe buy not installing it, so you now you get more fluid being tossed around toward the clutch rod than if you had the baffle. They also went to another dealer to do the same thing.
HD ran a bike 25,000 miles with the known problem after the fix with no issue's after the baffle was installed. Now on to this. There will not be a recall because unknown to HD, some of the bikes may never experience this issue but if and when they do, HD will step up and fix it with the baffle that should have been in there all alone.
So there you go kids, the story of the transmission fluid transfer, honestly!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 19, 2017, 09:59:45 AM
Quote from: metaliser on October 19, 2017, 09:54:23 AM
Trans, there is a fix !
OK, I know some of you might not believe me on this but I'm really telling the fact's here on this. I told in another thread on HDF that HD was going to buy back a CVO from a guy I knew because of the transfer of the Trans fluid to the primary, the engineer from HD came down and said, I'll buy your bike back but I can also fix it. The OP said how you know you can fix it and the engineer said, I'll guarantee this will.
So the OP said, since bikes are higher this year than ever he's willing to take a chance on his 2017 CVO fix. Guess what the fix was, C'mon guess, LOL.
The fix was a baffle that goes in the tranny, yep, the same ole baffle that everyone has had in the trans. for years. Seems HD decided that the baffle cost too much money to install in the new models that they'd save some doe buy not installing it, so you now you get more fluid being tossed around toward the clutch rod than if you had the baffle. They also went to another dealer to do the same thing.
HD ran a bike 25,000 miles with the known problem after the fix with no issue's after the baffle was installed. Now on to this. There will not be a recall because unknown to HD, some of the bikes may never experience this issue but if and when they do, HD will step up and fix it with the baffle that should have been in there all alone.
So there you go kids, the story of the transmission fluid transfer, honestly!

So what is the part number for this mystery baffle?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Prostock on October 19, 2017, 10:10:13 AM
 :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on October 19, 2017, 10:12:52 AM
    I think it,s the one by the throw out bearing. Look like they took it out in 14. Could be way the problem started on the 14's and later.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 19, 2017, 10:19:10 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on October 19, 2017, 10:12:52 AM
    I think it,s the one by the throw out bearing. Look like they took it out in 14. Could be way the problem started on the 14's and later.

Do you have a part number?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on October 19, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
   If it is true that Harley's  putting back in the baffle it's probable going to have a new #. I see the 18 S/T still have them in there. We have to see if they have the same problem as the touring bikes have.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on October 19, 2017, 11:31:41 AM
Is 37069-90A what's being called a baffle?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on October 19, 2017, 12:10:34 PM
Pretty sure they removed them with hydraulic clutch setup- still used with cable clutch models, to ensure throw out bearing lube.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on October 19, 2017, 12:24:18 PM
If indeed he is calling the oil slinger a baffle I would like to watch the factory guy install one in a hyd clutch set up.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on October 19, 2017, 12:38:37 PM
I have no experience in the clutch just was asking what "baffle" Metaliser referred to as an engineering fix above:

"The fix was a baffle that goes in the tranny, yep, the same ole baffle that everyone has had in the trans. for years. Seems HD decided that the baffle cost too much money to install in the new models that they'd save some doe buy not installing it, so you now you get more fluid being tossed around toward the clutch rod than if you had the baffle."

New models meaning hydraulic clutch equipped? I see that slinger part 37069-90A is still in the 2018 Softail trans with the manual clutch they offer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on October 19, 2017, 01:11:19 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on October 19, 2017, 12:24:18 PM
If indeed he is calling the oil slinger a baffle I would like to watch the factory guy install one in a hyd clutch set up.
Factory guy didn't install, tech's at the Dealership did but the Rep was there to observe.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on October 19, 2017, 01:31:42 PM
They didn't use the slinger in the hydraulic setups way back in 2007, the pushrod goes right up to the slave cylinder in the side cover.  I'd like to know how they could add it back in unless they built it on the pushrod and installed the pushrod from the right side of the bike instead of through the clutch pack.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on October 20, 2017, 02:31:43 AM
 Great now we have a fix we can go back to horsepower and torque   :bike
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on October 20, 2017, 04:16:05 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on October 19, 2017, 01:31:42 PM
They didn't use the slinger in the hydraulic setups way back in 2007, the pushrod goes right up to the slave cylinder in the side cover.  I'd like to know how they could add it back in unless they built it on the pushrod and installed the pushrod from the right side of the bike instead of through the clutch pack.
Not sure on that but as I stated the guy (REP) said he'd quarentee this would fix it and it was some sort of baffle. My friend talked to a tech. on the phone at HD and he told them that if you guys did this just to save a dime then that's sorry as hell. He said the phone went silent for a bit. LOL
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on October 20, 2017, 03:33:25 PM
  I'm game mine is in the shop for that problem. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on October 20, 2017, 04:32:08 PM
Cripes! 25 pages!

Shoot me if this was brought up, but does the pushrod protrude a bit from the mainshaft when the clutch is released? Maybe just find an o-ring or hard plastic washer that fits tight around the pushrod an slip it in place. If it falls off I doubt it would cause any damage and it may act as a slinger to keep oil from following the pushrod. :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on October 21, 2017, 08:24:06 AM
I have been thinking the very same thing for about 4 months now. What you are describing is something akin to a labyrinth seal.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on October 21, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
You cant seal the mainshaft until you provide the primary another breathing/vent path

Below is one of my pix of a trannie, but what is happening is that oil is getting into the slave cylinder cavity, it has no further path and as the slave pulsates due to the feedback from the S&A Clutch then it will get pumped through the mainshaft into the primary

The easy fix IMO is to modify the side plate the slave bolts to.

(https://i.imgur.com/P2xreUF.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on October 21, 2017, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: FSG on October 21, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
You cant seal the mainshaft until you provide the primary another breathing/vent path

I never said anything about sealing the passage. Just add a o-ring to act as an oil slinger at the end of the push rod, but I don't know if there is room for it.

Another option to correct it, at least at the manufacturing level, it to move the release mechanism to the primary cover, put in a solid main shaft and separate primary vent.

Or my preference, ditch the three separate holes and build a unitized engine and tranny like the rest of the world does, think V-Rod :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 21, 2017, 01:23:12 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on October 21, 2017, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: FSG on October 21, 2017, 12:36:57 PM
You cant seal the mainshaft until you provide the primary another breathing/vent path

I never said anything about sealing the passage. Just add a o-ring to act as an oil slinger at the end of the push rod, but I don't know if there is room for it.

Another option to correct it, at least at the manufacturing level, it to move the release mechanism to the primary cover, put in a solid main shaft and separate primary vent.

Or my preference, ditch the three separate holes and build a unitized engine and tranny like the rest of the world does, think V-Rod :banghead:
Leave my bike out of this. :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on October 21, 2017, 01:33:28 PM
why not perforate the mainshaft, plenty of length to drill vent holes   :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on October 21, 2017, 08:09:56 PM
I've followed this here and on the HD Forum since the first reports of transfer. And read it all. What's curious is there's been very little for pictures of the parts in and around the end of the trans input shaft, slave-side clutch pushrod end, and the clutch slave units before and after their recent P/N change.

Lots of speculation bafflegab but apparently those with an M8 and a problem that bothered to disassemble the trans and slave never did much documentation. SC finally released one of the inside bearing plate he puttied up, but little else. The outside of the bearing housing has been shown as have the bearings...older and new on the input.

Outside of HD's parts fiche and a few drawings like the one FSG just did there's not been much else to look at and discuss. If the clutch slave is suspected how about a left side pic of it and the clutch rod end and parts orientation?

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on October 22, 2017, 04:26:12 AM
Quote from: Bike31 on October 21, 2017, 08:09:56 PM
I've followed this here and on the HD Forum since the first reports of transfer. And read it all. What's curious is there's been very little for pictures of the parts in and around the end of the trans input shaft, slave-side clutch pushrod end, and the clutch slave units before and after their recent P/N change.

Lots of speculation bafflegab but apparently those with an M8 and a problem that bothered to disassemble the trans and slave never did much documentation. SC finally released one of the inside bearing plate he puttied up, but little else. The outside of the bearing housing has been shown as have the bearings...older and new on the input.

Outside of HD's parts fiche and a few drawings like the one FSG just did there's not been much else to look at and discuss. If the clutch slave is suspected how about a left side pic of it and the clutch rod end and parts orientation?
Spoke with the service writer at the Pigeon Forge HD and he said one of the fixes that HD tried to do to the troubled OP's bike sucked all the clutch fluid from the reservoir, go figure on that one. The rep came down though and installed the baffle on that bike so I guess they think that's it, who knows.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 22, 2017, 07:30:27 AM
Cheer up guys. There will be a fix coming to a dealer near you eventually. As with most stuff MoCo fixes, it will be on your dime once these bikes are out of warranty.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on October 22, 2017, 09:38:14 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on October 21, 2017, 12:54:57 PM

I never said anything about sealing the passage. Just add a o-ring to act as an oil slinger at the end of the push rod, but I don't know if there is room for it.

Another option to correct it, at least at the manufacturing level, it to move the release mechanism to the primary cover, put in a solid main shaft and separate primary vent.

Or my preference, ditch the three separate holes and build a unitized engine and tranny like the rest of the world does, think V-Rod :banghead:
[/quote]

SOMEONE GET A ROPE!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on October 23, 2017, 05:22:54 AM
    Is it possible to put a grove or a lip on the release rod right before it enters the mainshaft. This way the oil will drip the lip on grove and not follow the rod before entering the mainshaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on October 23, 2017, 03:03:35 PM
   Here's another one how about cutting a left handed groove up the release rod.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on October 23, 2017, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: BUGLET on October 23, 2017, 03:03:35 PM
   Here's another one how about cutting a left handed groove up the release rod.

I thought of that too, but my bet is the release rod is spinning the same speed as the main shaft about 99.99% of the time. It might slow a bit while disengaging the clutch, but I doubt it as the release has a bearing in it too. A left hand groove would only work if the rod was spinning slower that the mainshaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on October 31, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
  Harley replaced raise and seal on crank. Put dye in trans still oil transfused to primary now my Harley Dealer was told to drive till my 10,000 service but bring it in when ever I want and they will check the fluids. I just wonder what will be done after my 10,000 service. I bought a UV dye light at my parts store. I was looking all over my bike that oil will glow with dye in it. I found a trace of oil on every lobe on my belt. My dealer said he couldn't do anything with it till there is a drop of oil on the floor. Has anyone had there trans fixed with the baffle.           
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on October 31, 2017, 05:22:06 PM
Quote from: hd06 on October 31, 2017, 05:02:05 PM
  Harley replaced raise and seal on crank. Put dye in trans still oil transfused to primary now my Harley Dealer was told to drive till my 10,000 service but bring it in when ever I want and they will check the fluids. I just wonder what will be done after my 10,000 service. I bought a UV dye light at my parts store. I was looking all over my bike that oil will glow with dye in it. I found a trace of oil on every lobe on my belt. My dealer said he couldn't do anything with it till there is a drop of oil on the floor. Has anyone had there trans fixed with the baffle.         
ya think just maybe your dealer is  pulling your leg??   why would you want to keep putting oil on your belt?  its not a chain, and oil for sure not be doing a belt any good in more ways than one? 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on October 31, 2017, 05:31:08 PM
 Yes that's true my dealer put bel-ray shock prof in trans. I called bel-ray customer service about his oil in the primary he said it will cause the clutch disk to slip. WTF
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on October 31, 2017, 05:36:02 PM
 My dealer put BR in trans because its thicker fluid.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on October 31, 2017, 05:48:19 PM
Quote from: hd06 on October 31, 2017, 05:31:08 PM
Yes that's true my dealer put bel-ray shock prof in trans. I called bel-ray customer service about his oil in the primary he said it will cause the clutch disk to slip. WTF

amazing 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on October 31, 2017, 07:00:28 PM
Reading what some Dealers are doing with these Bikes just makes me shake my head.... :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on October 31, 2017, 07:22:03 PM
Quote from: HV on October 31, 2017, 07:00:28 PM
Reading what some Dealers are doing with these Bikes just makes me shake my head.... :emoGroan:

!0/4. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mulligan on November 07, 2017, 11:02:46 PM
Hi folks,

here in germany this issue is fixed (not on all bikes) with the clutch pushrod...

i had this fix a few weeks ago and no oil transfer anymore.  Some dealers changed this on all of their demo bikes and for some k km now, no transfer.

I know it is not officaly fix from HD, but whatever.
Partsnumbers:
11143              Retaining RIng
37909-90         Retaining Ring
37092-06         Clutch Release Rod
37000113        Clutch ROd End
37000112        Pushrod , Clutch Release Plate
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on November 07, 2017, 11:49:02 PM
It might help but I'm not convinced about this "fix" yet! These parts have been used in all 2014 Rushmore Touring bikes with hydraulic clutch actuation. Nonetheless my 2014 Street Glide (twin cam) suffers from a "minor" oil transfer of about 50ml (1.7oz) in 5,000 mi.

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 14, 2017, 01:18:01 AM
Quote from: FSG on October 13, 2017, 08:26:37 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on October 13, 2017, 07:47:22 PM
My '15 Limited Low has the A&S clutch, as well as the narrow primary that went system wide in '16. Never a drop transferred. I don't even check the fluid level between changes any more.  :idunno:

and it has a pre Brembo Slave Cylinder which may not react as much to the A&S Clutch action


Brakes and more for the new HARLEY-DAVIDSON FLT MY17

http://www.brembo.com/en/company/news/harley-davidson-brembo-brakes

(https://i.imgur.com/PGUBcHH.png)

HD P/N  37200131A    SECONDARY CLUTCH ACTUATOR

(https://i.imgur.com/JFoenRz.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/gdR7TCK.png)


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on November 14, 2017, 03:38:58 AM
   looks like that's the ticket   :idea:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on November 14, 2017, 05:27:23 AM
Don't think that the diaphragm of the Brembo unit made the difference.

Twincam (-2016)
[attach=0]

M8 (2017 up)
[attach=1]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on November 14, 2017, 05:52:00 AM
 At least somebody is stepping up to the plate,time will tell. I have that problem I may end up trying it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on November 14, 2017, 09:42:57 AM
Quote from: Mulligan on November 07, 2017, 11:02:46 PM
Hi folks,

here in germany this issue is fixed (not on all bikes) with the clutch pushrod...

i had this fix a few weeks ago and no oil transfer anymore.  Some dealers changed this on all of their demo bikes and for some k km now, no transfer.

I know it is not officaly fix from HD, but whatever.
Partsnumbers:
11143              Retaining RIng
37909-90         Retaining Ring
37092-06         Clutch Release Rod
37000113        Clutch ROd End
37000112        Pushrod , Clutch Release Plate

We use those parts when converting from the stock hydraulic cover to the Baker hydraulic cover. So far so good, no fluid transfer. Not sure if it is the mechanical push rod parts or our piston design but it's working.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on November 16, 2017, 01:18:07 AM
That's an important message! The problem can be safely cured by altering the pushrod and slave piston design. That should be an affordable recall work for the mothership :up:

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 16, 2017, 03:59:25 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on November 14, 2017, 05:27:23 AM
Don't think that the diaphragm of the Brembo unit made the difference.

Twincam (-2016)
[attach=0]

M8 (2017 up)
[attach=1]


I would think just the opposite,  the diaphragm looks to decrease the volume of the chamber where the oils accumulates and in the center where it is closest to the main shaft it may even  touch when the clutch is actuated. I can't believe that someone have not simply drilled a drain hole in bottom as indicated in this thread earlier. No accumulated oil, nothing to transfer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on November 16, 2017, 05:38:11 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 16, 2017, 03:59:25 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on November 14, 2017, 05:27:23 AM
Don't think that the diaphragm of the Brembo unit made the difference.

Twincam (-2016)
[attach=0]

M8 (2017 up)
[attach=1]


I would think just the opposite,  the diaphragm looks to decrease the volume of the chamber where the oils accumulates and in the center where it is closest to the main shaft it may even  touch when the clutch is actuated. I can't believe that someone have not simply drilled a drain hole in bottom as indicated in this thread earlier. No accumulated oil, nothing to transfer.
That would be a good first step. This is taking way too long to solve.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 18, 2017, 02:04:38 AM
Here's the pre Brembo Slave Cylinder, there may/was/is transfer with the previous slave cylinder BUT the diaphragm in the Brembo Slave has made a world of difference and not for the good.

The problem IMO isn't the Brembo Slave Cylinder, it's the way in which HD have used it.

(https://i.imgur.com/uKwVpfq.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/ryKVCy9.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/k6xToa4.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 19, 2017, 03:49:32 AM
I would drill the return holes myself but if someone likes testing swap the M-8 slave out for a Twin cam slave and see if the transfer decreases.
With these pictures it becomes more evident that they are trapping liquid oil right at the end of the mainshaft and the path of least resistance is right down the hollow shaft to the primary.
.
As far as the MOCO, they know what is happening with most of these problems. The task is not just to fix the problem, it is to fix it in such a way that you can say it was never a problem. You have to mask it as a manufacturing change or improvement that way you do not pay to fix the old ones.
Think 50,000 bikes at $50.00 a bike and it is a 2.5 million dollar bill
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on November 19, 2017, 04:47:27 AM
I just pulled mine apart yesterday, I was going to drill a drain hole, the problem is that the lower portion on the slave chamber will be right at the oil level...

It is still apart, and I am pondering cutting the center out of the diaphragm.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on November 19, 2017, 04:52:35 AM
[attach=0]

[attach=1]

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on November 19, 2017, 06:05:31 AM
Is the solution as easy as removing this material? Make that hole big enough, and no more carryover? IMO, they made it this way to allow slave cylinder changes without losing fluid- I'd rather have to add a few ounces in the odd event of having to replace the slave unit, than have to worry about carry over.
[smg id=3129]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 19, 2017, 12:03:36 PM
Quotethey made it this way to allow slave cylinder changes without losing fluid

I think I've said the same thing earlier   :teeth:

Yes cut the center out OR jut the bottom half out, the cover needs relieving as well so both would provide a path for the oil to return to the trannie, without relieving the cover the gasket thickness is the only gap for oil to pass thru.

(https://i.imgur.com/wpR1DSB.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/2P9Bt3c.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/0o8566C.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 19, 2017, 12:25:11 PM
Pics two and three would be my thought. I would leave all of the top to help shield oil from entering the cavity. In in pic three I would insure to remove material only in areas that had good drainage though the bearing housing into the main trans case.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on November 19, 2017, 12:28:23 PM
FSG, could you mark (if you know) where the tranny oil level is? Could be important imho.

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on November 19, 2017, 12:32:03 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on November 19, 2017, 12:28:23 PM
FSG, could you mark (if you know) where the tranny oil level is? Could be important imho.

Karl
Better still, do the function of the helical gears force the oil level higher in that area like a pumping action. If so, might be a fix that won't work.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 19, 2017, 12:35:39 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on November 19, 2017, 12:28:23 PM
FSG, could you mark (if you know) where the tranny oil level is? Could be important imho.

Karl

Sorry, I don't know, I've not seen a M8 other than in the showroom.

Darren has said "I was going to drill a drain hole, the problem is that the lower portion on the slave chamber will be right at the oil level..."   perhaps he could draw a line on a pic.

I'd have the bike on the side stand, even the wheels on 2x4s to get an angle such that the slave could be removed without loosing oil.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 19, 2017, 12:40:59 PM
Quote from: rbabos on November 19, 2017, 12:32:03 PM
Better still, do the function of the helical gears force the oil level higher in that area like a pumping action. If so, might be a fix that won't work.
Ron

I'm sure they do, I've said earlier that the gears main and counter will be acting like a screw compressor and pushing oil to the bearing.

That said if they are pushing oil then the opposite side of the gearset should be sucking.  So I'd suck it and see.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 19, 2017, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: FSG on November 19, 2017, 12:40:59 PM
Quote from: rbabos on November 19, 2017, 12:32:03 PM
Better still, do the function of the helical gears force the oil level higher in that area like a pumping action. If so, might be a fix that won't work.
Ron

I'm sure they do, I've said earlier that the gears main and counter will be acting like a screw compressor and pushing oil to the bearing.

That said if they are pushing oil then the opposite side of the gearset should be sucking.  So I'd suck it and see.

Cable clutch bikes use the same gears and do not have the problem so it is the trapping of the oil not the gears pushing it. I do not have a bike to look at either but if you leave the side by the gears that may be pumping shrouded and open the opposite side so the oil can flow back it should work as well as a cable cover does.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on November 19, 2017, 01:00:19 PM
Provided the M8 tranny has about the same (?) oil level as the TC tranny it looked like that:

[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 19, 2017, 01:11:51 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 19, 2017, 12:55:05 PM
....the problem so it is the trapping of the oil not the gears pushing it. ...  if you leave the side by the gears that may be pumping shrouded and open the opposite side so the oil can flow back it should work as well as a cable cover does.

the oil is trapped, yes, but it has to get there and it didn't walk, so IMO it's pushed

maybe I'm overthinking it remembering the days I worked on screw/reciprocating air compressors that put out 800 cfm at 3000 psi, they were driven by 12V149s, noisy baskets

BUT ......  the side cover holding the ramps doesn't seal around the end of the mainshaft like the hyd side cover does so there must be some relief rather than just rely on the gasket thickness
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 19, 2017, 01:16:28 PM
Quote from: FSG on November 19, 2017, 01:11:51 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 19, 2017, 12:55:05 PM
......  if you leave the side by the gears that may be pumping shrouded and open the opposite side so the oil can flow back it should work as well as a cable cover does.

BUT ......  the side cover holding the ramps doesn't seal around the end of the mainshaft like the hyd side cover does so there must be some relief rather than just rely on the gasket thickness

Damn internet  :banghead:
We are in complete agreement on this and have been. Both covers need to be opened up.
All I was trying to say is the machined relief could be biased toward the lower quarter that would drain back best.

I wish I had a bike local. This is a 1 hour test at Vic's shop.
Post 1 feb 17 2017
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 19, 2017, 01:18:18 PM
K and 1     :up:    :SM: 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on November 19, 2017, 02:24:45 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on November 19, 2017, 01:00:19 PM
Provided the M8 tranny has about the same (?) oil level as the TC tranny it looked like that:

[attach=0]
Karl, I'd say that's pretty close. I eyeballed the stick location from outside the trans through the passageway in the lower portion of the case.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on November 19, 2017, 07:58:02 PM
Hi guys have been following this thread for a while now and I was wondering if you removed the cover but left the slave cyl attached, and pulled the clutch leaver in would oil be forced out of the gap between the housing and the slave cylinder. Max
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: topcat3815 on November 20, 2017, 02:09:29 AM
Maybe HD should go back to a cable operated clutch
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: dogger on November 20, 2017, 08:53:23 AM
I agree with topcat. Many of the riders with hydraulic clutches have had some kind of a problem at one time or another.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: les on November 20, 2017, 09:12:03 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on November 19, 2017, 01:00:19 PM
Provided the M8 tranny has about the same (?) oil level as the TC tranny it looked like that:

[attach=0]

Those support ribs on the one on the right look a lot more restrictive than the cable housing on the left.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borno on November 20, 2017, 10:14:33 AM
The rubber on that Brembo slave cylinder looks just like a LMI pump diaphragm, no wonder it pumps oil. :oil:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 20, 2017, 10:20:55 AM
One thing to note is the problem is not more prevalent in city traffic when you are using the clutch alot, it shows up at mid to high rpm contant running.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on November 20, 2017, 10:21:36 AM
Quote from: dogger on November 20, 2017, 08:53:23 AM
I agree with topcat. Many of the riders with hydraulic clutches have had some kind of a problem at one time or another.

Cable clutches are not trouble free either. First off look at all the threads we see on adjusting a cable clutch, plus after a few miles the cable wears, then breaks. I have had both, I like the hydraulic better.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on November 20, 2017, 11:14:56 AM
FSG's post reply 656 is the most likely fix. Yup. Can't believe how friggin stupid that area is. Slave sealing boot, seriously?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on November 20, 2017, 12:32:53 PM
 :agree:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on November 20, 2017, 03:54:58 PM
I agree that the area behind the slave should be opened up. If nothing else a bunch of 1/4" holes drilled across the bottem should do it. I also wonder that if the push rod sticks out as far as it does in this picture,

(http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=96613.0;attach=84234;image)

that placing a hard plastic or a rubber o-ring that fits tight would work as a oil slinger. I would want to use something the would not destroy the tranny if it falls off. But perhaps a small steel washer spot welded on would do it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on November 21, 2017, 12:01:21 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on November 20, 2017, 03:54:58 PM
I agree that the area behind the slave should be opened up. If nothing else a bunch of 1/4" holes drilled across the bottem should do it. I also wonder that if the push rod sticks out as far as it does in this picture,

(http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=96613.0;attach=84234;image)

that placing a hard plastic or a rubber o-ring that fits tight would work as a oil slinger. I would want to use something the would not destroy the tranny if it falls off. But perhaps a small steel washer spot welded on would do it.
I was thinking the same thing , but would love to see what would happen if you ran the bike to 3000 rpm with the slave cyl off. Max
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on November 21, 2017, 04:51:19 AM
Back when the 17's came out I tried & tried to get the new slave cylinder to try on my '15, I wanted the longer rod travel to help with tranny klank. No one would sell me one... could only be sold/installed by a dealer.

Guess they did me a favor.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 26, 2017, 11:23:44 AM
(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/52/90/73/ukwvpf11.jpg)

-0.5mm in the red zone
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 01:40:39 PM
Are you saying you removed .5mm and it worked?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 26, 2017, 02:23:17 PM
It's just my opinion.

oil tranfert : 0.2L / 500km

If HD give me not solution, i try this
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 02:32:09 PM
.5mm may not be enough on the bottom and that surface is only half the problem. you need to drain the cavity between the slave and the plate also.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 26, 2017, 11:22:44 PM
(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/52/90/73/ukwvpf12.jpg)

maybe - 0.75mm with little holes

Sorry, my English is not very good.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 27, 2017, 04:15:50 AM
I would not do anything above the center line because it may let more oil in.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 27, 2017, 05:21:19 AM
so that the oil can flow more easily, it is necessary that the air can return  :scratch:

we do not know if the oil comes from above or below ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 27, 2017, 05:50:30 AM
We know that stock, the oil enters around the hole for the main shaft because that is the only hole.
We don't need more flow, we need drainage. If you create drains in the bottom and leave the
top alone any oil that enters the center hole should flow downward and out the holes.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 27, 2017, 06:02:14 AM

It may be better indeed :

(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/52/90/73/610.jpg)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 27, 2017, 06:03:45 AM
I do not know if anyone has already done it ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on November 27, 2017, 06:06:33 AM
Quote from: Bigtwin on November 27, 2017, 06:03:45 AM
I do not know if anyone has already done it ?

You may want to read the thread from the page 1
Take a look here.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192914#msg1192914 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192914#msg1192914)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 27, 2017, 06:16:22 AM

I read everything and I did not find the validation of this solution  :scratch: :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on November 27, 2017, 06:26:12 AM
Quote from: Bigtwin on November 27, 2017, 06:03:45 AM
I do not know if anyone has already done it ?

It has been done with positive results.  The 2 I know of had reduced the transfer probably about 75%.  The next step was to remove a little more material.  I have not heard of the results of the second modification yet.  They are also making some modifications to the mainshaft bearing to test as well.  You are on the right track with want you are suggesting.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 27, 2017, 06:52:00 AM

In France, my dealer told me right away that it was a known problem but that HD did not really have a solution to offer ......
I do not want to wait for months for a possible solution.
My dealer agrees that I try this solution in the meantime.
Thanks for your help.  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 28, 2017, 12:33:01 AM
(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/16/52/90/73/611.jpg)

Before drilling holes in this area, I ask myself: what is it for? Protection of the hydraulic menbrane?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 28, 2017, 12:36:53 AM
Protection against what?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 28, 2017, 01:20:25 AM
jets of oil under pressure ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 28, 2017, 01:34:56 AM
from where? there's none in the trannie.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 28, 2017, 01:38:29 AM

there must be some pressure in this area for the oil to pass through the pushrod
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 28, 2017, 01:54:13 AM
you say "jets of oil under pressure"

there are none, what we do have in my opinion is the gears on the main and countershafts spinning in toward one another acting as a screw compressor and pushing the oil toward and through the trapdoor bearing on the mainshaft, the slave cylinder is pulsing as a result of feedback from the A&S clutch via the pushrod, it's this pulsing in my opinion that is pushing the oil through to the primary
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on November 28, 2017, 02:28:47 AM

I have trouble with the translation. You mean to push the oil by disengaging, by operating the lever of the left hand?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 28, 2017, 02:39:00 AM
QuoteYou mean to push the oil by disengaging, by operating the lever of the left hand?

No

If you lightly rest your hand/fingers on the clutch lever you can feel the A&S Clutch in action, that is the feedback from the clutch via the slave cylinder.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on November 28, 2017, 03:49:48 AM

A&S Clutch was introduced on the 2013 CVO models and 2014 Tri Glide. With the M8 it became a standard feature 2017 up.

[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on November 28, 2017, 04:32:38 AM
Quote from: FSG on November 28, 2017, 02:39:00 AM
QuoteYou mean to push the oil by disengaging, by operating the lever of the left hand?

No

If you lightly rest your hand/fingers on the clutch lever you can feel the A&S Clutch in action, that is the feedback from the clutch via the slave cylinder.
Gave it some thought  :scratch: and doubt it would pump. Goes in and out on an even cycle so no directional effect. That and the feel in the lever is multiplied from the pressure reversal. Big piston feeding back to a small one. Slave movement would only be a few thou at most.
Back to the same old. There must be accumulation around the pushrod for anything to happen.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on November 28, 2017, 01:20:35 PM
Every time you shift you can feel a pulse in the lever almost like a HYD feed back of some kind
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: blackhillsken on November 28, 2017, 01:25:25 PM
Quote from: HV on November 28, 2017, 01:20:35 PM
Every time you shift you can feel a pulse in the lever almost like a HYD feed back of some kind

Used to get that lever pulsing on some 2007s and were fixed with the Baker bearing door kit.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on November 28, 2017, 01:33:32 PM
QuoteThere must be accumulation around the pushrod for anything to happen.

the gear box screw compressor will keep the slave recess full, the slave pulse will do the rest
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on November 28, 2017, 01:55:31 PM
Quote from: FSG on November 28, 2017, 01:33:32 PM
QuoteThere must be accumulation around the pushrod for anything to happen.

the gear box screw compressor will keep the slave recess full, the slave pulse will do the rest
Head from the reason you stated would bring the fluid at the bottom of the PR hole and gravity when on the kickstand too will move some also. The whole situmatation sucks , I tell you.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Advntr on December 01, 2017, 06:33:30 AM
The local service manager at the HD store told me the moco still does not know what the case of the migration is and he opined that there may be a porosity issues with the castings...i will check with my other service parts manager that i know. :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on December 01, 2017, 06:41:13 AM
Quote from: Advntr on December 01, 2017, 06:33:30 AM
The local service manager at the HD store told me the moco still does not know what the case of the migration is and he opined that there may be a porosity issues with the castings...i will check with my other service parts manager that i know. :emoGroan:

lol, porous cases?  Between the trans and primary?  Let that sink in for a minute. :doh:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 01, 2017, 08:36:45 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on December 01, 2017, 06:41:13 AM
Quote from: Advntr on December 01, 2017, 06:33:30 AM
The local service manager at the HD store told me the moco still does not know what the case of the migration is and he opined that there may be a porosity issues with the castings...i will check with my other service parts manager that i know. :emoGroan:

lol, porous cases?  Between the trans and primary?  Let that sink in for a minute. :doh:

Sure, that I certainly the cause! :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on December 01, 2017, 08:38:39 AM
Porosity between crank and primary case leading to vacuum in the primary as discussed by Max on HDF already (see #449)   :pop:

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 10:57:52 AM
Porosity may put engine oil it the primary but would not be the cause or cure for trans fluid in the primary, it just doen't work that way.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on December 01, 2017, 06:53:38 PM
 If the engine case is porous enough too draw a vacuumthrough the primary and pull trans fluid into it you would think it would pull primary fluid into the crank case.  Besides it would have to pull more air than the vent supplies.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 01, 2017, 08:43:06 PM
Not to mention that it will pull air only unless you have something causing the trans oil to be up to the level of the center hole in the mainshaft. It just keeps coming back to the changes in the side cover and slave cylinder that cover the end of the shaft with liquid trans oil. This just is not an air and vapor problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: -deuced- on December 01, 2017, 09:59:36 PM
deleted, wrong page
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on December 01, 2017, 11:29:25 PM
[attach=0]

0001-0002image.jpg
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on December 02, 2017, 02:13:54 AM
Quote from: FSG on December 01, 2017, 11:29:25 PM
[attach=0]
Great diagram could sit and watch that pumping action all day. But more to the point , from what I see there a slinger is in order. has any one tried one yet?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on December 02, 2017, 03:00:51 AM
there is no room for a slinger
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 02, 2017, 04:41:31 AM
 :idea:
There would be room for a slinger if you machine out the slinger shaped cone they added to the end cover instead of drilling holes in it.

Is it as simple as machining out what they added to the new covers and then go back to a slinger?

Maybe just one more case of you can't make it better if you don't know how it worked in the first place.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on December 02, 2017, 06:17:34 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 02, 2017, 04:41:31 AM
:idea:
There would be room for a slinger if you machine out the slinger shaped cone they added to the end cover instead of drilling holes in it.

Is it as simple as machining out what they added to the new covers and then go back to a slinger?

Maybe just one more case of you can't make it better if you don't know how it worked in the first place.
Bingo- but I wonder if that's not a cost effective solution, as they would have to replace the side cover, (few machinists left at most dealerships) push rod pieces, and gaskets, at a cost of about $230/unit.  HD has produced over two hundred thousand 2017/2018 units, so this is a 50 million dollar fix.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on December 02, 2017, 06:27:53 AM
Great diagram, FSG.

Has anyone tried a cable conversion with slinger on an M8 to prove transfer stops?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on December 02, 2017, 06:39:48 AM
Quote from: VDeuce on December 02, 2017, 06:27:53 AM
Great diagram, FSG.

Has anyone tried a cable conversion with slinger on an M8 to prove transfer stops?
Good question! Any M8 softails having transfer issues?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: crewchief25H on December 02, 2017, 06:51:20 AM
I have a 18 with transfer issues. My dealer called Harley Tech and was told they have a oil deflector prototype they are installing in the trans. I'm working thru the transfer validation to get one installed.
My bike has 600 miles on the clock. At 490 dealer filled tranny with 12 oz.  Dealer wants me to get to 1000 miles to validate TA0022 and then HD will send someone out to install the deflector..

Anybody know what this "deflector" looks like?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on December 02, 2017, 09:22:37 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 02, 2017, 06:39:48 AM
Quote from: VDeuce on December 02, 2017, 06:27:53 AM
Great diagram, FSG.

Has anyone tried a cable conversion with slinger on an M8 to prove transfer stops?
Good question! Any M8 softails having transfer issues?
From what I have heard, being cable operated, the 18 Softails don't transfer.

But, I would really like to see proof that a cable would resolve the issue on a Touring bike that has the issue. I would think it would. If it were my bike and I had a non-batwing fairing, I'd do the retrofit. The batwing would be more challenging due to having to drill hole for cable. Road Kings and Road Glides would be easy I would think.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on December 02, 2017, 09:23:39 AM
Quote from: crewchief25H on December 02, 2017, 06:51:20 AM
I have a 18 with transfer issues. My dealer called Harley Tech and was told they have a oil deflector prototype they are installing in the trans. I'm working thru the transfer validation to get one installed.
My bike has 600 miles on the clock. At 490 dealer filled tranny with 12 oz.  Dealer wants me to get to 1000 miles to validate TA0022 and then HD will send someone out to install the deflector..

Anybody know what this "deflector" looks like?
That is interesting, please update us!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on December 02, 2017, 09:50:08 AM

2 HD France technicians come to my dealer on Wednesday to install a prototype too. It must be this famous mechanical part. I asked my dealer to try to make a photo
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on December 02, 2017, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: FSG on December 02, 2017, 03:00:51 AM
there is no room for a slinger
Between the bearing and the nut  and possibly dished slightly. ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on December 02, 2017, 06:51:20 PM
I think the oil runs down the inverted cone of the  end plate on to the push rod. the oil flow needs to be minamised not stopped, maybe  :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on December 02, 2017, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: To The Max on December 02, 2017, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: FSG on December 02, 2017, 03:00:51 AM
there is no room for a slinger
Between the bearing and the nut  and possibly dished slightly. ?

still not a lot of room there, to prove a point just fit a sealed bearing after removing the inside seal

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on December 03, 2017, 04:44:22 AM
Quote from: FSG on December 02, 2017, 07:39:32 PM
Quote from: To The Max on December 02, 2017, 06:33:28 PM
Quote from: FSG on December 02, 2017, 03:00:51 AM
there is no room for a slinger
Between the bearing and the nut  and possibly dished slightly. ?

still not a lot of room there, to prove a point just fit a sealed bearing after removing the inside seal

Cole's been trying to find a sealed bearing for awhile now with no luck.  Currently testing a modifies bearing but I haven't heard the outcome.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on December 03, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
I have read about 15 of the 30 pages of postings on this subject...
As a FYI,,,I traded my 2010 Classic in last April for a 2017 Limited.

I do all my own maintenance. At 1000 miles I did the service and changed all the oils.  In June I took off for a 3000 mile trip to Utah. When I got back I changed the motor oil and primary oil. But not the transmission.

September I headed out to Eastern Pennsylvania. The day before I left I check the bike over including the transmission. And like so many others there was no oil on the dipstick. I added quite a bit maybe 5 oz or more. Mileage was at 8,000 then. I did nothing to the primary...  I'm at 12,000 miles now.  Riding season is all but over and I have three other bikes that I use for daily riders.   When I get time I'll put the Limited on the lift and properly measure the transmission and primary oil and document what I find.   

I live in Central Missouri.

Following this Thread with interest.
Herman
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jim Bronson on December 03, 2017, 07:04:14 PM
I previously mentioned that my main riding buddy didn't have the transfer problem with his '17 RK. Well I lied. I talked to him on Friday after our ride and convinced him to check the trans fluid level. He called me back yesterday and said the fluid was just barely touching the bottom of the dipstick. It was at the 'full' mark at the 5000 mile service (bike now has about 10,000). He took it in to the dealer who determined that 12 ounces had transferred to the primary. They filled the tranny and the primary to the recommended levels, and the SM told him to bring back in after another 1,000 miles. They also gave him a copy of the TA0022 document, and I was surprised that it also includes twin cam touring bikes from 2014 up. I was confused by the fix for the twin cams, which is to replace the oil seal (12068) and shaft spacer (24009-06). These parts are in the right side of the sprocket shaft. For the life of me, I can't see how that would fix the problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on December 04, 2017, 03:21:46 AM
 Just a quick note don't let them put Bel-Ray in the trans. It is bad on the clutch pads.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on December 04, 2017, 04:25:53 AM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on December 03, 2017, 07:04:14 PM
I previously mentioned that my main riding buddy didn't have the transfer problem with his '17 RK. Well I lied. I talked to him on Friday after our ride and convinced him to check the trans fluid level. He called me back yesterday and said the fluid was just barely touching the bottom of the dipstick. It was at the 'full' mark at the 5000 mile service (bike now has about 10,000). He took it in to the dealer who determined that 12 ounces had transferred to the primary. They filled the tranny and the primary to the recommended levels, and the SM told him to bring back in after another 1,000 miles. They also gave him a copy of the TA0022 document, and I was surprised that it also includes twin cam touring bikes from 2014 up. I was confused by the fix for the twin cams, which is to replace the oil seal (12068) and shaft spacer (24009-06). These parts are in the right side of the sprocket shaft. For the life of me, I can't see how that would fix the problem.

These are on the left side of the crankshaft. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 06:27:36 AM
I would think if this problem, which has been seen before M8's in very small numbers, was fixed then this issue shouldn't be that big a mystery to the Engineers.. or is it the problem is so far and few between H-D doesn't recognize it as an issue?  I mean, I NEVER came across one person who told me they had a cam shoe tensioner fail on a TC and this is before the hydraulic design.. 47k on my '06 Softail and haven't even had to change a light bulb.... just saying, Tech Forums are for people experiencing problems but that doesn't make it widespread or an issue for the Moco to recall or redesign...  there's what.. 9-10 people here discussing this issue and millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on December 04, 2017, 07:08:02 AM
While I will say the ratio of "catastrophic failure" to "no issues" is small, there are & have been issues. HD has it's reputation, due in no small part, to the fact that these beasts will run, and run decently, in poor condition- lots of owners neglect even simple maintenance.  Fella I know has 155K on his FLHT, and was complaining about the forks not feeling right. I asked him when was the last time he changed the fork oil? He just stared at me, and then said "Never, why? How often are you supposed to change fork oil"? 
As far as the tensioner problem, I've personally replaced hundreds- and a couple dozen CVO engines that were shrapnel from cam bearing failure, seen IDK how many lifter failures, stators & regulators out the wazoo, etc, compensators, etc.   Benefits of working at a dealership, maybe? Original cam bearing design was bad enough they sent kits out with new cam plates, lifters, cams, etc for the early TCs.
As far as the M8 goes, if you never go above 3K RPM, you may never have enough transfer to worry about. Most folks don't, so they have no issue. Some guys feel like they paid for the entire rev range, and are gonna use it- and should be able to, without worrying about having to remove the extra fluid from the primary, and put it back in the trans, every few miles...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harleytuner on December 04, 2017, 08:23:15 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 06:27:36 AM
I would think if this problem, which has been seen before M8's in very small numbers, was fixed then this issue shouldn't be that big a mystery to the Engineers.. or is it the problem is so far and few between H-D doesn't recognize it as an issue?  I mean, I NEVER came across one person who told me they had a cam shoe tensioner fail on a TC and this is before the hydraulic design.. 47k on my '06 Softail and haven't even had to change a light bulb.... just saying, Tech Forums are for people experiencing problems but that doesn't make it widespread or an issue for the Moco to recall or redesign...  there's what.. 9-10 people here discussing this issue and millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...

There is enough reports of HD's sumping and transferring trans fluid that HD issued bulletins for each of those issues. 

Like Rigidthumper, I have replaced many engines for failed cam shoes.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 09:26:17 AM
Quote from: harleytuner on December 04, 2017, 08:23:15 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 06:27:36 AM
I would think if this problem, which has been seen before M8's in very small numbers, was fixed then this issue shouldn't be that big a mystery to the Engineers.. or is it the problem is so far and few between H-D doesn't recognize it as an issue?  I mean, I NEVER came across one person who told me they had a cam shoe tensioner fail on a TC and this is before the hydraulic design.. 47k on my '06 Softail and haven't even had to change a light bulb.... just saying, Tech Forums are for people experiencing problems but that doesn't make it widespread or an issue for the Moco to recall or redesign...  there's what.. 9-10 people here discussing this issue and millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...

There is enough reports of HD's sumping and transferring trans fluid that HD issued bulletins for each of those issues. 

Like Rigidthumper, I have replaced many engines for failed cam shoes.

I'll believe what you said no reason not to, but a catastrophic engine failure due to cam shoe tensioner failures are pretty rare,...it would have to damage the oil pump, (as I'm sure your aware) just saying... I'm not questioning whether these issues are real or not but to the casual forum visitor, things may look a lot worse than they actually are.  It's also good to note that many of these problems accure in modified, and highly modified engines... my '06 88" was kept stock only an air filter upgrade and reflash... I'm not one to abuse my bike but I get on her pretty good in my "normal' day to day riding, never shy about twisting the throttle for high RPMs...  like any mfg, motorcycle,auto or otherwise, if the problem is rare in "normal" driving conditions, they aren't going to invest time and $ for a solution ... hopefully the Motor Co. does find a fix or the folks at this forum :)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 10:43:26 AM
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 11:02:33 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 10:43:26 AM
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on December 04, 2017, 11:04:12 AM
The problem is real,  I stated that in regards to the OP made in February.

The fact that HD has service bulletins for transfer and sumping makes it a none arguable point IMO.

The fact that HD has been dealing with this for basically a year just shows off their engineering prowess.

Dealers and Independents that do decent volume and are paying attention to their work will have a better grasp on what is happening than the internet types.  An Indy started this thread.

Having spend a good part of my youth in an HD dealership I am somewhat aware of the screw-ups HD use to be capable of especially when there was a product change/update and how difficult they can be to compensate the dealer for their "messes."  If you haven't been party to ownership or employment in a dealership or some capacity in HD you may not ackowledge or understand these issues.

The internet will not only generate myths but at times resist the truth!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on December 04, 2017, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 11:02:33 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 10:43:26 AM
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:

You have 47k on that 11 year old bike now.....   maybe you should look at those spring loaded tensioners this winter, I know I would.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borno on December 04, 2017, 12:12:28 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 04, 2017, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 11:02:33 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 10:43:26 AM
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:

You have 47k on that 11 year old bike now.....   maybe you should look at those spring loaded tensioners this winter, I know I would.

For real  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on December 04, 2017, 12:15:47 PM
 :SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 12:46:16 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 04, 2017, 11:48:52 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 11:02:33 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 10:43:26 AM
It took HD 7-8 years to come up with a better cam chain and tensioner set up and it was a big deal affecting pretty any TC with any real miles on it. Makes wonder how long it will take to fix the issues with the M8 beings it affect just a relatively small number.

Everyone I know has a TC )it seems) and I've never heard the conversation come up... and cam tensioners have been used in the auto industry for decades... again, this is a tech forum I get it. and many here own independent shops and their livelihood depends on people taking a stock H-D and hot rodding it.. most of those riders with hot bikes don't have any "real" miles on them but they have real problems..  :SM:

You have 47k on that 11 year old bike now.....   maybe you should look at those spring loaded tensioners this winter, I know I would.

I'm going to... if I don't buy an M8 ..  :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 02:26:48 PM
47k? My '05 wouldn't have made it that long. I tore it apart around 30k and the inside tensioner was about 3/4ths worn out. Pressing your luck!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FLHRI_2004 on December 04, 2017, 04:45:12 PM
Quote from: hd06myway on December 04, 2017, 06:27:36 AM. . . millions of H-D owners out there riding along.. oblivious to this and quite frankly, lucky they'll NEVER see the issue...

I know many who ride only a few thousand miles per year.  One guy has a nice (all stock) 2003 RK with fewer than 6,000 miles.  Guys who ride 500 miles per year may never experience problems.

My '04 RK had 51,000 miles when I changed the tensioners.  The inner one was 4/5 the way worn through.  I was really lucky and caught it just in time (should have changed them at 40,000).  Some have failed at 20,000 miles.

I don't ride like some (only 14,000 miles for me this year on my '14), but many on this forum ride a lot more per year.  More miles, even on a stock bike, will reveal problems that so many "out there" will never see.

. . . Just saying.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on December 04, 2017, 05:03:20 PM
Quote from: FLHRI_2004 on December 04, 2017, 04:45:12 PM

I know many who ride only a few thousand miles per year.  One guy has a nice (all stock) 2003 RK with fewer than 6,000 miles.  Guys who ride 500 miles per year may never experience problems.

My '04 RK had 51,000 miles when I changed the tensioners.  The inner one was 4/5 the way worn through.  I was really lucky and caught it just in time (should have changed them at 40,000).  Some have failed at 20,000 miles.

I don't ride like some (only 14,000 miles for me this year on my '14), but many on this forum ride a lot more per year.  More miles, even on a stock bike, will reveal problems that so many "out there" will never see.

. . . Just saying.

Exactly true, the problem is there, but some will never see it do to low usage.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DTTJGlide on December 04, 2017, 06:14:10 PM
They have come up with a small seal that goes on the clutch pushrod, there is a pic over on HDF. Looks like it's pressed on to the nut on the mainshaft bearing, owner says it was installed 11/30, too cold to test it out yet. :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: stro1965 on December 04, 2017, 06:14:22 PM
Add me to the list of folks seeing oil migrate from the transmission to the primary. Just 400 miles after the 1K service on my '17 I decided to have a look. The dipstick was dry and the primary was overflowing. I'm estimating that about 8 ounces migrated over in just 400 miles. Now, that said, I don't ride this bike like most folks do. This Road King was purchased almost exclusively as a cone competition bike, and I'm on that clutch all the time. Definitely gets ridden like a cop bike. That might explain the excess migration in my case. Dropped off at the dealership today. They claimed to have never heard of this issue and had not seen the TSB.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on December 04, 2017, 06:25:35 PM
Looks like it presses over the end of the mainshaft. Not much for it to grip to.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 04, 2017, 06:48:28 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on December 04, 2017, 06:14:10 PM
They have come up with a small seal that goes on the clutch pushrod, there is a pic over on HDF. Looks like it's pressed on to the nut on the mainshaft bearing, owner says it was installed 11/30, too cold to test it out yet. :idunno:

If they can keep it in place it will sure slow down the tranfer. It will not fix the engineering flaw that traps the oil  above the main shaft but it is a cheap bandaid so HD will use it to get the public off their case and they will quietly make a proper change on a different model year. No defect, no recall.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 07:22:21 PM
Here it is,
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on December 04, 2017, 08:04:20 PM
 :scratch:   well at least they're doing something, but ......... 

they'd be better to use a better flangenut with a mating face seal fitted to the inner side cover, but then they would need to vent the slave cavity back to the trannie

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on December 04, 2017, 08:10:24 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on December 04, 2017, 06:25:35 PM
Looks like it presses over the end of the mainshaft. Not much for it to grip to.

it'll probably press  into the mainshaft as well
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 04, 2017, 08:13:50 PM
 There is the problem with any type of seal/baffle compared to removing the trapped oil, it could turn the slave cylinder into a diaphram pump, and  they can't totally seal the end of the shaft because it is still the only primary vent. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 09:16:28 PM
I was trying to understand what they are trying to do here, seal the push rod? Seal the end of the shaft to the slave cylinder? Either way, how does the primary vent? Are they sealing the shaft to the slave and the rod, but allowing air to pass on the back side, (tranny side), of the seal? What happens if the area behind the slave eventually fills with oil?

I wonder what would happen if they drilled a 1/8" hole in the main shaft, under the output gear. They could seal the end of the mainshaft, and the mainshaft spinning would spin any oil out the hole, and the primary would still vent through the hole. :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 05, 2017, 04:18:27 AM
That would work in the future but costly as a retro on the bike that are out there.

The trouble is that they created this problem so undoing the design mistake would be a better fix, maybe they could call 1984 and find out what made this system work for over 30 years until they "fixed it"
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on December 05, 2017, 04:21:42 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on December 04, 2017, 07:22:21 PM
Here it is,
Forward progress  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on December 05, 2017, 10:48:19 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on December 04, 2017, 06:14:10 PM
They have come up with a small seal that goes on the clutch pushrod, there is a pic over on HDF. Looks like it's pressed on to the nut on the mainshaft bearing, owner says it was installed 11/30, too cold to test it out yet. :idunno:
If it in fact seals the pushrod,  the primary will not vent then. A separate vent is needed.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on December 06, 2017, 12:29:45 PM

I have this piece in my bike since earlier. Return trip of 80 Km: nothing to report. I'll tell you later if it's OK.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on December 06, 2017, 12:53:02 PM
 :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 08flstf on December 28, 2017, 06:23:55 AM
Haven't read or heard anything lately. Has this issue been resolved yet or not?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hattitude on December 28, 2017, 07:51:28 AM
Quote from: 08flstf on December 28, 2017, 06:23:55 AM
Haven't read or heard anything lately. Has this issue been resolved yet or not?

Nope....

On another forum I read, the new super fix by the MoCo is not a fix after all... it was a button-looking cap on the end of the pushrod...

It helped some, did nothing for others...

The MoCo continues to search for a band-aide fix, rather than the proper fix (which they probably know by now) that would cost way too money...

The same can be said for their sumping issue...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 28, 2017, 09:49:00 AM
And the longer they drag it out, the more bikes will need to be repaired.

They should just fix it with whatever means necessary and repair the rest as needed. It seems not all are affected so I don't see it being a recall issue, but as the bikes come in that transfer oil, fix them! Pick a number, if it transfers 4 ounces in 1,000 miles, then fix it. I don't see it affecting more than a few thousand motorcycles as it seems many out there have never heard of it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jim Bronson on December 28, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
It is kinda hard for me to believe that they have had an engineering team working on this for six+ months with no permanent fix in sight. It seems like it isn't very high on their priority list.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hattitude on December 28, 2017, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on December 28, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
It is kinda hard for me to believe that they have had an engineering team working on this for six+ months with no permanent fix in sight. It seems like it isn't very high on their priority list.

I believe they know full well how to fix it, and fix it properly...

But someone has decided the fix is too expensive, so they're experimenting with cheap, partial, band-aide fixes..... hoping to save face (not have to admit to a big engineering mistake) and money (cheap bolt-on fix v  re-engineering a part).....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 28, 2017, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: hattitude on December 28, 2017, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on December 28, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
It is kinda hard for me to believe that they have had an engineering team working on this for six+ months with no permanent fix in sight. It seems like it isn't very high on their priority list.

I believe they know full well how to fix it, and fix it properly...

But someone has decided the fix is too expensive, so they're experimenting with cheap, partial, band-aide fixes..... hoping to save face (not have to admit to a big engineering mistake) and money (cheap bolt-on fix v  re-engineering a part).....

We have a winner

To engineer a true fix is to admit the original design was flawed and that means they would have to provide the new design to all owners back to the Rushmore bikes that used it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 28, 2017, 06:49:21 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 28, 2017, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: hattitude on December 28, 2017, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on December 28, 2017, 10:47:36 AM
It is kinda hard for me to believe that they have had an engineering team working on this for six+ months with no permanent fix in sight. It seems like it isn't very high on their priority list.

I believe they know full well how to fix it, and fix it properly...

But someone has decided the fix is too expensive, so they're experimenting with cheap, partial, band-aide fixes..... hoping to save face (not have to admit to a big engineering mistake) and money (cheap bolt-on fix v  re-engineering a part).....

We have a winner

To engineer a true fix is to admit the original design was flawed and that means they would have to provide the new design to all owners back to the Rushmore bikes that used it.

Harley does "improvements" all the time and does not do anything on previous models, mainshaft on the six speeds was one, total change of the cams and chains in '06-'07. 25MM wheel bearings going to a A the B suffix, but no problems mentioned. How many different TC breather assemblies are there, four? No problems there either, just and improvement if even mentioned. I am sure there is many more.

HD will find a cure and it will show up as an running change in 2019, and mention something about "improved primary and transmission venting", it will retrofit back a couple years and nothing more will be said about it. Perhaps dealers will get a service bulletin about it getting applied to earlier models if the customer has a complaint of oil transfer. It will be touted as a great improvement over earlier models then swept under the rug like it has been done many times before.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Moparnut72 on December 29, 2017, 07:28:10 AM
Does this problem occur in all TC late models or certain ones. I have a '17 Slim. Guess I better check it.
kk
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on December 29, 2017, 09:33:52 AM
Quote from: Moparnut72 on December 29, 2017, 07:28:10 AM
Does this problem occur in all TC late models or certain ones. I have a '17 Slim. Guess I better check it.
kk

Bulletin TA0022 applies to only touring models for 2014-2018
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Moparnut72 on December 29, 2017, 09:39:11 AM
Thanks
kk
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 29, 2017, 03:57:43 PM
Quote from: Moparnut72 on December 29, 2017, 07:28:10 AM
Does this problem occur in all TC late models or certain ones. I have a '17 Slim. Guess I better check it.
kk

Touring only and limited number of motorcycles. I have 18,500 miles om my 2016 Limited and no oil transfer issues.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jim Bronson on December 29, 2017, 06:17:10 PM
22K on my 2015 RK and no transfer issues.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Coyote on December 29, 2017, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on December 29, 2017, 06:17:10 PM
22K on my 2015 RK and no transfer issues.
:doh:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 29, 2017, 07:15:39 PM
Quote from: Coyote on December 29, 2017, 06:34:09 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on December 29, 2017, 06:17:10 PM
22K on my 2015 RK and no transfer issues.
:doh:

Clutch cable on that '15 KR if I am not mistaken! :missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jim Bronson on December 29, 2017, 07:21:07 PM
^^^^ Yep.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Oz Dan on December 29, 2017, 08:19:14 PM
17,000 km on my 17 FLHR and 2 dyno tunes - no transfer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on December 29, 2017, 08:26:56 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on December 29, 2017, 07:21:07 PM
^^^^ Yep.

That's why. The oil transfer problem is on hyraulic clutches.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on January 01, 2018, 05:08:24 PM
Over Christmas break I dumped the transmission and primary oils on my 2017 Limited.  I found that 5 oz had migrated into the primary.

I stopped in at the dealers and talked to them about it. They told me that the motor company believes that the M8 engine is somehow creating the vacuum in the primary.  We were all puzzled by motor company thinking.  Like How in the Hell can that be? They told me that they (the dealer) would keep me posted.


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jim Bronson on January 01, 2018, 05:52:35 PM
Why can't they just vent the primary directly instead of through the clutch pushrod bore? If I owned an M8 with the problem, I'd find a scrap derby cover and drill it and connect a length of rubber hose for a vent. It would be quick and would verify whether pressure differential is the problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FurryOne on January 07, 2018, 03:28:44 PM
Quote from: 50Panhead on January 01, 2018, 05:08:24 PM
They told me that the motor company believes that the M8 engine is somehow creating the vacuum in the primary.  We were all puzzled by motor company thinking.  Like How in the Hell can that be?

If they have the same setup as the TC it's possible to get leakage through the seal in back of the stator since it seals to a spacer that's on the shaft instead of the shaft itself, but I'd think that leakage would pressurize the primary, not create a vacuum.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on January 07, 2018, 04:26:41 PM
Previous pages on the thread should be compulsory reading for anybody chiming in.
Really is a waste of space with comments and questions from latecomers too lazy to get up to speed on the subject.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ekb55 on January 21, 2018, 05:46:49 PM
Dealer picked up my 2017 SGS with 2,300 miles on it January 19th. No trans fluid on the dipstick. Service manager will be calling Harley on Tuesday to see what they say to do. Dealer did not hesitate to offer to pick the bike up and immediately address the issue. As far as they are concerned if it takes another bike to make me happy that will be the plan. Stay tuned.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on January 22, 2018, 06:42:32 AM
Quote from: ekb55 on January 21, 2018, 05:46:49 PM
Dealer picked up my 2017 SGS with 2,300 miles on it January 19th. No trans fluid on the dipstick. Service manager will be calling Harley on Tuesday to see what they say to do. Dealer did not hesitate to offer to pick the bike up and immediately address the issue. As far as they are concerned if it takes another bike to make me happy that will be the plan. Stay tuned.
Cudos to your dealer. Guy I ride with just had his second M8 grenade. Probably sumping again like the first but won't know for sure until they pull it apart. Dealer gave him a loner in the mean time. Keep us posted.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 08flstf on January 22, 2018, 06:58:12 AM
I've been following this thread since it started. I was really hoping this would have been resolved by now as I really like the new bikes but I'm afraid to take that expensive a chance on one of these. I was hoping this would have been cleared up by now and I might trade for one instead of spending more money on mine, but it looks like I may just bump mine up a little more to keep me satisfied another year or two. If it's not resolved by then I'll probably consider changing brands, don't really want to but damn!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Not-too-late on January 24, 2018, 10:21:56 AM
I read somewhere that MoCo has a cure.
Do they or don't they? And when are we gonna here about it?

Enough is enough already.

:emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on January 24, 2018, 03:05:29 PM
Quote from: Not-too-late on January 24, 2018, 10:21:56 AM
I read somewhere that MoCo has a cure.
Do they or don't they? And when are we gonna here about it?

Enough is enough already.

:emoGroan:

Read the last few pages here, there are some pictures of it. It does not work 100% of the time.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on January 24, 2018, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 29, 2017, 09:33:52 AM
Quote from: Moparnut72 on December 29, 2017, 07:28:10 AM
Does this problem occur in all TC late models or certain ones. I have a '17 Slim. Guess I better check it.
kk

Bulletin TA0022 applies to only touring models for 2014-2018


What is different with the Softails? There's the clue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on January 24, 2018, 08:34:29 PM
Looks like they are looking to invent something to sell. Some simple drains in the right places as discussed here in this thread will probably work just fine.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Tail Ridr on January 25, 2018, 02:16:50 AM
Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html)
263 pages on this...? :wtf:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on January 25, 2018, 08:05:11 AM
Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 04:58:53 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 29, 2017, 09:33:52 AM
Quote from: Moparnut72 on December 29, 2017, 07:28:10 AM
Does this problem occur in all TC late models or certain ones. I have a '17 Slim. Guess I better check it.
kk

Bulletin TA0022 applies to only touring models for 2014-2018


What is different with the Softails? There's the clue.
Cable instead of hydraulic clutch?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Moparnut72 on January 25, 2018, 10:20:29 AM
My Softail Slim S has an hydraulic clutch.
kk
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on January 25, 2018, 10:51:37 AM
Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html)
Don't worry about it. People will keep buying the "Potty mouth" and MoCo knows it. :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: fwj on February 06, 2018, 11:40:41 AM
I'm sure that some of you dyno tuners did also M8 softails in the past months. Are they transferring too or is it indeed a hydraulic clutch caused issue? Sharing your learnings would be very much appreciated.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on February 24, 2018, 09:19:06 AM
So I had to swap a out springs in the clutch on a 2017 .  As customer had a BB kit done and claimed clutch seemed like it was slipping    Primary pouring fluid out trans almost full ??  :scratch:

I call customer and he has been adding trans fluid did not know where it was going though  maybe a leak..  So back too many pages to search . Some one stated that no way for the fluid level to transfer into engine due to height of seal  . Well this this had  3 qts  10 0z in the primary . That is well above the sprocket shaft seal level. I checked engine oil level 1/2 qt low almost due for 5 k oil change . SO ok  .  Slotted the gasket like others .. Will see if that is able to slow this one down.

Customer is adding over 2 qts in under 5K  to trans  :banghead: :banghead: 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 24, 2018, 10:15:55 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on February 24, 2018, 09:19:06 AM
So I had to swap a out springs in the clutch on a 2017 .  As customer had a BB kit done and claimed clutch seemed like it was slipping    Primary pouring fluid out trans almost full ??  :scratch:

I call customer and he has been adding trans fluid did not know where it was going though  maybe a leak..  So back too many pages to search . Some one stated that no way for the fluid level to transfer into engine due to height of seal  . Well this this had  3 qts  10 0z in the primary . That is well above the sprocket shaft seal level. I checked engine oil level 1/2 qt low almost due for 5 k oil change . SO ok  .  Slotted the gasket like others .. Will see if that is able to slow this one down.

Customer is adding over 2 qts in under 5K  to trans  :banghead: :banghead:
But he's living the dream. :teeth:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on February 24, 2018, 10:26:38 AM
With that much transfer that quickly, it would be a very good candidate for troubleshooting the problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on February 24, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
The saga continues...here's a thread on one of the latest attempts at a cure: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html)

Last few pages, Bruce/Max/Admiral is getting involved...machining the nuts.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on February 24, 2018, 10:30:06 AM
delete
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on February 24, 2018, 10:35:54 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on February 24, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
The saga continues...here's a thread on one of the latest attempts at a cure: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html)

Last few pages, Bruce/Max/Admiral is getting involved...machining the nuts.


aware of this . At least things people are working towards a fix I know Steves bike is very bad on transfer and its been well documented .. Its odd how some may only do it to a small % and others are pushing it out at a excessive rate .
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 24, 2018, 11:34:56 AM
Well, stock primary oiling system on some year Shovelheads used a sealed pushrod nut arrangement also. What's old is new again. It's a shame customers have to fix HD fk ups while they sit back and do nothing.
This has gone on way to long now.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 04:22:35 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on February 24, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
The saga continues...here's a thread on one of the latest attempts at a cure: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html)

Last few pages, Bruce/Max/Admiral is getting involved...machining the nuts.

I may have missed it but did anyone see in that thread how they plan to vent the primary after they totally seal off it's only vent?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 05:41:40 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 04:22:35 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on February 24, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
The saga continues...here's a thread on one of the latest attempts at a cure: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html)

Last few pages, Bruce/Max/Admiral is getting involved...machining the nuts.

I may have missed it but did anyone see in that thread how they plan to vent the primary after they totally seal off it's only vent?
He drilled a hole in the top of the slave cylinder.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 05:44:58 AM
[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on February 25, 2018, 06:24:53 AM
So what was the outcome?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 06:33:37 AM
Not sure that hole does anything. Only direct line from primary to trans is the center hole in the main shaft.  Every thing else is sealed to keep each fluid in their own spaces.  A separate vent line would be needed from inner cover, t'd into the existing trans vent hose or run a hose higher up with a small filter. Between the sealed nut for the pushrod and separate vent, problem solved. Same deal worked on the Shovelheads like 40+ years ago, other then the vent connected to the oil tank high point. Build it right, then HD can steal the idea. Not like they haven't done that before.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 08flstf on February 25, 2018, 07:15:28 AM
Does anyone have any idea what percent of the bikes transfer vs what percent don't? I know some people never check their levels and are oblivious but I have a few friends that have m8's and I've mentioned this to them. They've checked their levels and they're normal.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:27:26 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 06:33:37 AM
Not sure that hole does anything. Only direct line from primary to trans is the center hole in the main shaft.  Every thing else is sealed to keep each fluid in their own spaces.  A separate vent line would be needed from inner cover, t'd into the existing trans vent hose or run a hose higher up with a small filter. Between the sealed nut for the pushrod and separate vent, problem solved. Same deal worked on the Shovelheads like 40+ years ago, other then the vent connected to the oil tank high point. Build it right, then HD can steal the idea. Not like they haven't done that before.
Ron
I believe it does. The primary vents through the main shaft then to atmosphere through the hole in the slave/actuator vs going into the trans and venting out of the hose in the top cover which appears to be similar in size.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on February 25, 2018, 09:30:29 AM
I know of one bike that they vented the primary .. Much like the trans put a small K&N filter on it .. I do not know if it solved the issue .. It was on the bike when I tuned it no issues / no transfer .. But long term ?? no idea bike has never been back ..  Tune was  sub contract  to me ..
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:37:40 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:27:26 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 06:33:37 AM
Not sure that hole does anything. Only direct line from primary to trans is the center hole in the main shaft.  Every thing else is sealed to keep each fluid in their own spaces.  A separate vent line would be needed from inner cover, t'd into the existing trans vent hose or run a hose higher up with a small filter. Between the sealed nut for the pushrod and separate vent, problem solved. Same deal worked on the Shovelheads like 40+ years ago, other then the vent connected to the oil tank high point. Build it right, then HD can steal the idea. Not like they haven't done that before.
Ron
I believe it does. The primary vents through the main shaft then to atmosphere through the hole in the slave/actuator vs going into the trans and venting out of the hose in the top cover which appears to be similar in size.
What I'm missing is how that hole can connect to the space between the pushrod and bore of the main shaft, inboard of the seal install. All I see is pocket to pocket connection within the trans case itself which does not connect to the primary itself. Primary and trans are all sealed up, except for the space between the pushrod and main shaft bore. Adding a seal to the end of the pushrod to seal the gap between the two, air needs a path to continue someplace. I must be in one of my dense moments and  missing a connection for this hole to the primary itself. :idunno: The sealed pushrod via nut and seal, good idea. The additional internal vent hole also good. There needs to be a second actual primary vent now that the original means has been sealed off.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:37:40 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:27:26 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 06:33:37 AM
Not sure that hole does anything. Only direct line from primary to trans is the center hole in the main shaft.  Every thing else is sealed to keep each fluid in their own spaces.  A separate vent line would be needed from inner cover, t'd into the existing trans vent hose or run a hose higher up with a small filter. Between the sealed nut for the pushrod and separate vent, problem solved. Same deal worked on the Shovelheads like 40+ years ago, other then the vent connected to the oil tank high point. Build it right, then HD can steal the idea. Not like they haven't done that before.
Ron
I believe it does. The primary vents through the main shaft then to atmosphere through the hole in the slave/actuator vs going into the trans and venting out of the hose in the top cover which appears to be similar in size.
What I'm missing is how that hole can connect to the space between the pushrod and bore of the main shaft, inboard of the seal install. All I see is pocket to pocket connection within the trans case itself which does not connect to the primary itself. Primary and trans are all sealed up, except for the space between the pushrod and main shaft bore. Adding a seal to the end of the pushrod to seal the gap between the two, air needs a path to continue someplace. I must be in one of my dense moments and  missing a connection for this hole to the primary itself. :idunno:
Ron
The space between the push rod and the main shaft opens up into the cavity that houses the actuator, and the primary pressure then exits the drilled hole.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:37:40 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:27:26 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 06:33:37 AM
Not sure that hole does anything. Only direct line from primary to trans is the center hole in the main shaft.  Every thing else is sealed to keep each fluid in their own spaces.  A separate vent line would be needed from inner cover, t'd into the existing trans vent hose or run a hose higher up with a small filter. Between the sealed nut for the pushrod and separate vent, problem solved. Same deal worked on the Shovelheads like 40+ years ago, other then the vent connected to the oil tank high point. Build it right, then HD can steal the idea. Not like they haven't done that before.
Ron
I believe it does. The primary vents through the main shaft then to atmosphere through the hole in the slave/actuator vs going into the trans and venting out of the hose in the top cover which appears to be similar in size.
What I'm missing is how that hole can connect to the space between the pushrod and bore of the main shaft, inboard of the seal install. All I see is pocket to pocket connection within the trans case itself which does not connect to the primary itself. Primary and trans are all sealed up, except for the space between the pushrod and main shaft bore. Adding a seal to the end of the pushrod to seal the gap between the two, air needs a path to continue someplace. I must be in one of my dense moments and  missing a connection for this hole to the primary itself. :idunno:
Ron
The space between the push rod and the main shaft opens up into the cavity that houses the actuator, and the primary pressure then exits the drilled hole.
Yes , I buy that with no nut modified for a seal as in stock setup. Seal changes everything from what I see. If the pushrod end is sealed, that hole does not really function, right?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:37:40 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:27:26 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 06:33:37 AM
Not sure that hole does anything. Only direct line from primary to trans is the center hole in the main shaft.  Every thing else is sealed to keep each fluid in their own spaces.  A separate vent line would be needed from inner cover, t'd into the existing trans vent hose or run a hose higher up with a small filter. Between the sealed nut for the pushrod and separate vent, problem solved. Same deal worked on the Shovelheads like 40+ years ago, other then the vent connected to the oil tank high point. Build it right, then HD can steal the idea. Not like they haven't done that before.
Ron
I believe it does. The primary vents through the main shaft then to atmosphere through the hole in the slave/actuator vs going into the trans and venting out of the hose in the top cover which appears to be similar in size.
What I'm missing is how that hole can connect to the space between the pushrod and bore of the main shaft, inboard of the seal install. All I see is pocket to pocket connection within the trans case itself which does not connect to the primary itself. Primary and trans are all sealed up, except for the space between the pushrod and main shaft bore. Adding a seal to the end of the pushrod to seal the gap between the two, air needs a path to continue someplace. I must be in one of my dense moments and  missing a connection for this hole to the primary itself. :idunno:
Ron
The space between the push rod and the main shaft opens up into the cavity that houses the actuator, and the primary pressure then exits the drilled hole.
Yes , I buy that with no nut modified for a seal as in stock setup. Seal changes everything from what I see. If the pushrod end is sealed, that hole does not really function, right?
Ron
It's not sealed from the cavity behind the actuator, I guess it's one of those things you need to see in person.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:57:23 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:51:24 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:45:50 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:41:48 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 09:37:40 AM
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:27:26 AM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 06:33:37 AM
Not sure that hole does anything. Only direct line from primary to trans is the center hole in the main shaft.  Every thing else is sealed to keep each fluid in their own spaces.  A separate vent line would be needed from inner cover, t'd into the existing trans vent hose or run a hose higher up with a small filter. Between the sealed nut for the pushrod and separate vent, problem solved. Same deal worked on the Shovelheads like 40+ years ago, other then the vent connected to the oil tank high point. Build it right, then HD can steal the idea. Not like they haven't done that before.
Ron
I believe it does. The primary vents through the main shaft then to atmosphere through the hole in the slave/actuator vs going into the trans and venting out of the hose in the top cover which appears to be similar in size.
What I'm missing is how that hole can connect to the space between the pushrod and bore of the main shaft, inboard of the seal install. All I see is pocket to pocket connection within the trans case itself which does not connect to the primary itself. Primary and trans are all sealed up, except for the space between the pushrod and main shaft bore. Adding a seal to the end of the pushrod to seal the gap between the two, air needs a path to continue someplace. I must be in one of my dense moments and  missing a connection for this hole to the primary itself. :idunno:
Ron
The space between the push rod and the main shaft opens up into the cavity that houses the actuator, and the primary pressure then exits the drilled hole.
Yes , I buy that with no nut modified for a seal as in stock setup. Seal changes everything from what I see. If the pushrod end is sealed, that hole does not really function, right?
Ron
It's not sealed from the cavity behind the actuator, I guess it's one of those things you need to see in person.
Could be. :up:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on February 25, 2018, 10:02:38 AM
After looking at the other thread that 01 SE Duece posted to, with the seal installed lip seal inward, I can see how a little positive pressure in the trans case would possibly increase the sealing ability of the lip seal in the mainshaft nut.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 10:29:21 AM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 10:02:38 AM
After looking at the other thread that 01 SE Duece posted to, with the seal installed lip seal inward, I can see how a little positive pressure in the trans case would possibly increase the sealing ability of the lip seal in the mainshaft nut.
I agree.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 11:02:48 AM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 10:02:38 AM
After looking at the other thread that 01 SE Duece posted to, with the seal installed lip seal inward, I can see how a little positive pressure in the trans case would possibly increase the sealing ability of the lip seal in the mainshaft nut.
There should be no pressure. Trans is vented and with that additional small hole in that cavity the whole box should be static air, just like the primary as it vents from heat expansion.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Slyde on February 25, 2018, 11:41:23 AM
Ron, I believe the primary vents directly to the slave cylinder cavity then out the drilled hole to the side cover.

Brian
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on February 25, 2018, 11:55:36 AM
My point was meant to say that there likely is a little tolerance to leaking if transmission case pressure "should" occur. IMO  :teeth:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: Slyde on February 25, 2018, 11:41:23 AM
Ron, I believe the primary vents directly to the slave cylinder cavity then out the drilled hole to the side cover.

Brian
Yes, I understand that and that's fine. It's with the addition of this seal, primary venting is stopped, assuming the seal is actually sealing.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on February 25, 2018, 12:21:22 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 12:08:17 PM
Yes, I understand that and that's fine. It's with the addition of this seal, primary venting is stopped, assuming the seal is actually sealing.
Ron

Correct, this seal is designed to isolate the trans fluid from the clutch slave cylinder.
(https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.hdforums.com-vbulletin/2000x1504/80-112ce220_199b_4a38_9fcf_40e7824aa9b6_f722f662abae99599c4d72200cdaf15bd42a5977.jpeg)



Now the primary is vented through the gap between the nut and the slave cylinder, through that newly drilled hole, to atmosphere.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: Slyde on February 25, 2018, 11:41:23 AM
Ron, I believe the primary vents directly to the slave cylinder cavity then out the drilled hole to the side cover.

Brian
Yes, I understand that and that's fine. It's with the addition of this seal, primary venting is stopped, assuming the seal is actually sealing.
Ron

:up: :up:
We are either both right or both missing the same thing on this one.
Once that seal is in the nut and the pushrod is installed, the primary is sealed. You can vent the slave cavity all you want.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 01:00:42 PM
It vents through the mainshaft, to the slave cylinder and out a small hole at the top of the slave to inside the dummy cover over the end of the tranny. The dummy cover is open to atmosphere.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 01:24:23 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: Slyde on February 25, 2018, 11:41:23 AM
Ron, I believe the primary vents directly to the slave cylinder cavity then out the drilled hole to the side cover.

Brian
Yes, I understand that and that's fine. It's with the addition of this seal, primary venting is stopped, assuming the seal is actually sealing.
Ron

:up: :up:
We are either both right or both missing the same thing on this one.
Once that seal is in the nut and the pushrod is installed, the primary is sealed. You can vent the slave cavity all you want.
Maybe we are a couple of oddballs in how we think? :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on February 25, 2018, 03:26:34 PM
Just a thought ,how is the push rod lube'd now that the seal is stopping the gearbox oil ?? max
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:02:23 PM
Quote from: To The Max on February 25, 2018, 03:26:34 PM
Just a thought ,how is the push rod lube'd now that the seal is stopping the gearbox oil ?? max
Not much needed for that. It would creep along the rod with capillary action from the other end , just from normal use.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 25, 2018, 04:04:17 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 01:24:23 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: Slyde on February 25, 2018, 11:41:23 AM
Ron, I believe the primary vents directly to the slave cylinder cavity then out the drilled hole to the side cover.

Brian
Yes, I understand that and that's fine. It's with the addition of this seal, primary venting is stopped, assuming the seal is actually sealing.
Ron

:up: :up:
We are either both right or both missing the same thing on this one.
Once that seal is in the nut and the pushrod is installed, the primary is sealed. You can vent the slave cavity all you want.
Maybe we are a couple of oddballs in how we think? :hyst:
Ron
Ron I believe it is going to vent through the push rod tube, between the actuator and the cap then to the backside of the Actuator and then back through the new hole that he drilled into the trans case the out the original vent. At least how I understand it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 25, 2018, 04:06:09 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:02:23 PM
Quote from: To The Max on February 25, 2018, 03:26:34 PM
Just a thought ,how is the push rod lube'd now that the seal is stopping the gearbox oil ?? max
Not much needed for that. It would creep along the rod with capillary action from the other end , just from normal use.
Ron
Delete
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:34:08 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 04:04:17 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 01:24:23 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 12:25:44 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 12:08:17 PM
Quote from: Slyde on February 25, 2018, 11:41:23 AM
Ron, I believe the primary vents directly to the slave cylinder cavity then out the drilled hole to the side cover.

Brian
Yes, I understand that and that's fine. It's with the addition of this seal, primary venting is stopped, assuming the seal is actually sealing.
Ron

:up: :up:
We are either both right or both missing the same thing on this one.
Once that seal is in the nut and the pushrod is installed, the primary is sealed. You can vent the slave cavity all you want.
Maybe we are a couple of oddballs in how we think? :hyst:
Ron
Ron I believe it is going to vent through the push rod tube, between the actuator and the cap then to the backside of the Actuator and then back through the new hole that he drilled into the trans case the out the original vent. At least how I understand it.
Are these pushrods not solid, unlike lifter pushrods that have a hole in the middle. If a hole, then it would vent. No hole, no venting.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 04:43:27 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 04:04:17 PM
Ron I believe it is going to vent through the push rod tube, between the actuator and the cap then to the backside of the Actuator and then back through the new hole that he drilled into the trans case the out the original vent. At least how I understand it.

Read my post, #825. It vents outside, not to the transmission. Look up an online parts retailer, and look at the tranny brake down. Once you seal the end of the shaft there is no way for oil to get back into the tranny. He was showing a hole in the top of the slave cylinder, it would vent under the dummy tranny cover.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:47:13 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 04:43:27 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 04:04:17 PM
Ron I believe it is going to vent through the push rod tube, between the actuator and the cap then to the backside of the Actuator and then back through the new hole that he drilled into the trans case the out the original vent. At least how I understand it.

Read my post, #825. It vents outside, not to the transmission. Look up an online parts retailer, and look at the tranny brake down. Once you seal the end of the shaft there is no way for oil to get back into the tranny. He was showing a hole in the top of the slave cylinder, it would vent under the dummy tranny cover.
So, is there a hole in the middle of the pushrod or not? That changes things.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 05:03:21 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:47:13 PM
So, is there a hole in the middle of the pushrod or not? That changes things.
Ron

No, it just vents around the outside of the pushrod and the hole through the main shaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 05:46:02 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 05:03:21 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:47:13 PM
So, is there a hole in the middle of the pushrod or not? That changes things.
Ron

No, it just vents around the outside of the pushrod and the hole through the main shaft.
So, it's back to how can the primary vent if a seal stops that original process.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 25, 2018, 05:49:29 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 04:43:27 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 04:04:17 PM
Ron I believe it is going to vent through the push rod tube, between the actuator and the cap then to the backside of the Actuator and then back through the new hole that he drilled into the trans case the out the original vent. At least how I understand it.

Read my post, #825. It vents outside, not to the transmission. Look up an online parts retailer, and look at the tranny brake down. Once you seal the end of the shaft there is no way for oil to get back into the tranny. He was showing a hole in the top of the slave cylinder, it would vent under the dummy tranny cover.
I believe there is a cavity in between the slave and the plate that it sits on. Do you have photo of the slave?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 25, 2018, 06:15:50 PM
Personally I Like PoorUb Idea about the slinger, except I would use a bushing inside the shaft instead of the o-ring on the shaft.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/htt/IMAG1157_zpsggvdhdu2.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/htt/IMAG1157_zpsggvdhdu2.jpg.html)

I would make it tapered so that when the shaft turned the centrifugal force would push the oil back into the transmission, make it press fit into the shaft hole, and leave enough space between the shaft and the bushing for the primary to breath.
You could also put another bushing on the shaft or O-ring on the shaft to sling the oil off the shaft before it got to the bushing inside the shaft.
Make the bushing out of Teflon.
The oil is getting into the shaft, and there is nothing to stop it from going all the way through.
And yes I know the drawing is out of porportion and that there is not much room for a bushing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on February 25, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
Without a vent from the primary isn't there a risk of pushing oil vapor into the starter?   :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 06:45:50 PM
Ok
Watch this and then reread the last two pages of this thread, then tell me what you think.
https://youtu.be/kTcRRaXV-fg
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 25, 2018, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
Without a vent from the primary isn't there a risk of pushing oil vapor into the starter?   :scratch:
Is that directed at my post? You would leave enough room between the bushing and the shaft for the primary to vent to the transmission.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 07:18:53 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 05:46:02 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 05:03:21 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:47:13 PM
So, is there a hole in the middle of the pushrod or not? That changes things.
Ron

No, it just vents around the outside of the pushrod and the hole through the main shaft.
So, it's back to how can the primary vent if a seal stops that original process.
Ron

The seal rides on the shaft nut, not the push rod.
(https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.hdforums.com-vbulletin/2000x1504/80-112ce220_199b_4a38_9fcf_40e7824aa9b6_f722f662abae99599c4d72200cdaf15bd42a5977.jpeg)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: crewchief25H on February 25, 2018, 07:25:20 PM
Here is what was done to my 18. Press fit, tapped in with a driver and mallet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=annxgu8HknQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=annxgu8HknQ)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on February 25, 2018, 07:41:59 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
Without a vent from the primary isn't there a risk of pushing oil vapor into the starter?   :scratch:
Is that directed at my post? You would leave enough room between the bushing and the shaft for the primary to vent to the transmission.


Not at all. I have been following this thread after reading the one the link was to in the other forum where they are machining a nut for a pushrod seal. My thought is, if you seal of the only vent (which is through the trans, the next likely route is through the starter armature brg.. I can't imagine that seal is spec;d for that kind of duty but maybe it is.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on February 25, 2018, 07:44:35 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 07:18:53 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 05:46:02 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 25, 2018, 05:03:21 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 25, 2018, 04:47:13 PM
So, is there a hole in the middle of the pushrod or not? That changes things.
Ron

No, it just vents around the outside of the pushrod and the hole through the main shaft.
So, it's back to how can the primary vent if a seal stops that original process.
Ron

The seal rides on the shaft nut, not the push rod.
(https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.hdforums.com-vbulletin/2000x1504/80-112ce220_199b_4a38_9fcf_40e7824aa9b6_f722f662abae99599c4d72200cdaf15bd42a5977.jpeg)



OK
One seal on the nut OD No seal on the nut ID against the pushrod, makes more sense now.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 26, 2018, 05:33:15 AM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 07:41:59 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
Without a vent from the primary isn't there a risk of pushing oil vapor into the starter?   :scratch:
Is that directed at my post? You would leave enough room between the bushing and the shaft for the primary to vent to the transmission.


Not at all. I have been following this thread after reading the one the link was to in the other forum where they are machining a nut for a pushrod seal. My thought is, if you seal of the only vent (which is through the trans, the next likely route is through the starter armature brg.. I can't imagine that seal is spec;d for that kind of duty but maybe it is.
That pic fooled me to on the sealing part. Lighten up the pic to see the inner part of the seal. It has no contact on the shaft basically so the concerns of venting are none existant since there is no sealing. This is the fix? :emoGroan:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: koko3052 on February 26, 2018, 06:06:29 AM
Stronger glasses Ron. :kick:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HOGROD on February 26, 2018, 07:37:28 AM
I drained my primary and trans last night after noticing no fluid on the trans dipstick for a while now and have mentioned it to the dealer when they had it in replacing a blown oil pressure switch that dumped all my oil on the ground and left me stranded. Yes I had it in to get fixed and they couldn't figure it out until it stranded me.

Anyways they said the level was fine, just where it should be. So I drain them, the primary had 40 ounces and the trans had 22 ounces. I'm sure the primary would have had more had I been adding fluid to it. It had been 4,200 miles since the last fluid change so I have no idea how long it had been low. I did notice the bike grinds really bad going into first gear when it's cold. I have to let it warm up before attempting to try first gear.

I seen on the HD forum where someone mentioned this fix and I'm going to ask my dealer if it will be possible to get it or I will just pay out of pocket for it. I believe they were using a 2014 CVO for the parts. I apologize if it had been posted I didn't read all the pages. I just wanted to post it in case it hadn't been linked here.

"In the German V-Twin forum some are reporting that the migration has stopped after changing the clutch pushrod to a larger diameter version of a former CVO model. Bellow the replacement parts:

11143 Retaining Ring
37909-90 Retaining Ring
37092-06 Clutch Release Rod
37000113 Clutch Rod End
37000112 Pushrod , Clutch Release Plate"

Here's the link to the post, #1898

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-190.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-190.html)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 26, 2018, 08:33:27 AM
So, what is the clearance between the pushrod and mainshaft bore in these M8s?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 26, 2018, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 26, 2018, 05:33:15 AM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 07:41:59 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
Without a vent from the primary isn't there a risk of pushing oil vapor into the starter?   :scratch:
Is that directed at my post? You would leave enough room between the bushing and the shaft for the primary to vent to the transmission.


Not at all. I have been following this thread after reading the one the link was to in the other forum where they are machining a nut for a pushrod seal. My thought is, if you seal of the only vent (which is through the trans, the next likely route is through the starter armature brg.. I can't imagine that seal is spec;d for that kind of duty but maybe it is.
That pic fooled me to on the sealing part. Lighten up the pic to see the inner part of the seal. It has no contact on the shaft basically so the concerns of venting are none existant since there is no sealing. This is the fix? :emoGroan:
Ron
Even if it works, it's to complicated, Harley will never steal it. :hyst:
I've got a main shaft, push rod and some supplies coming. Oil sling on the push rod and a dam in the hole of the cylinder.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 26, 2018, 04:02:23 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 26, 2018, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 26, 2018, 05:33:15 AM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 07:41:59 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
Without a vent from the primary isn't there a risk of pushing oil vapor into the starter?   :scratch:
Is that directed at my post? You would leave enough room between the bushing and the shaft for the primary to vent to the transmission.


Not at all. I have been following this thread after reading the one the link was to in the other forum where they are machining a nut for a pushrod seal. My thought is, if you seal of the only vent (which is through the trans, the next likely route is through the starter armature brg.. I can't imagine that seal is spec;d for that kind of duty but maybe it is.
That pic fooled me to on the sealing part. Lighten up the pic to see the inner part of the seal. It has no contact on the shaft basically so the concerns of venting are none existant since there is no sealing. This is the fix? :emoGroan:
Ron
Even if it works, it's to complicated, Harley will never steal it. :hyst:
I've got a main shaft, push rod and some supplies coming. Oil sling on the push rod and a dam in the hole of the cylinder.
They are waiting for a better option. Larger dia pushrod that only has about .0015-.002 clearance at the two outer ends  (2") of the mainshaft bore and a correct cupped slinger at the trap bearing. The posted modified nut somewhat acts that way but not as good as it could as far as slinging oil goes because it doesn't have the needed vertical surface area. The new pushrod with the reduced clearances at ends and having 1/8" wide x 1/32 deep at 1/8" spaced square grooves machined in it at the first 2" from the slave will also act as a half assed labyrinth seal. Total sealing isn't needed , just a big reduction as well as a slinger for directional control for the oil.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on February 26, 2018, 05:21:45 PM
I could be wrong but this is what I think the fix is.  The stock setup allows oil to pass into a chamber in the transmission inner side cover where the actuator is mounted.  That oil is then forced thru the inside of the mainshaft when the actuator moves during shifting.  The inside of the mainshaft is where the clutch pushrod runs and also how the primary is vented.
By changing the nut on the end of the mainshaft to a longer nut and then machining one end of that nut round, it allows the nut to sit into a seal.  That seal has been added to the transmission inner side cover.  What it does is seal the chamber that the actuator is mounted to.  Now no oil can enter that chamber around the outside of the mainshaft.  Because the chamber is now sealed, a vent hole has been added that will allow the primary to vent thru the mainshaft as it always did, but now it will vent thru the side cover.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 26, 2018, 06:05:22 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 26, 2018, 04:02:23 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 26, 2018, 03:27:28 PM
Quote from: rbabos on February 26, 2018, 05:33:15 AM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 07:41:59 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 25, 2018, 07:04:55 PM
Quote from: kd on February 25, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
Without a vent from the primary isn't there a risk of pushing oil vapor into the starter?   :scratch:
Is that directed at my post? You would leave enough room between the bushing and the shaft for the primary to vent to the transmission.


Not at all. I have been following this thread after reading the one the link was to in the other forum where they are machining a nut for a pushrod seal. My thought is, if you seal of the only vent (which is through the trans, the next likely route is through the starter armature brg.. I can't imagine that seal is spec;d for that kind of duty but maybe it is.
That pic fooled me to on the sealing part. Lighten up the pic to see the inner part of the seal. It has no contact on the shaft basically so the concerns of venting are none existant since there is no sealing. This is the fix? :emoGroan:
Ron
Even if it works, it's to complicated, Harley will never steal it. :hyst:
I've got a main shaft, push rod and some supplies coming. Oil sling on the push rod and a dam in the hole of the cylinder.
They are waiting for a better option. Larger dia pushrod that only has about .0015-.002 clearance at the two outer ends  (2") of the mainshaft bore and a correct cupped slinger at the trap bearing. The posted modified nut somewhat acts that way but not as good as it could as far as slinging oil goes because it doesn't have the needed vertical surface area. The new pushrod with the reduced clearances at ends and having 1/8" wide x 1/32 deep at 1/8" spaced square grooves machined in it at the first 2" from the slave will also act as a half assed labyrinth seal. Total sealing isn't needed , just a big reduction as well as a slinger for directional control for the oil.
Ron
That is interesting, I was under the impression that there was not enough room for a slinger. Not only do you need room for it but for it to move back and forth. If that will keep the oil out of the tunnel, however any oil that makes it way into the tunnel is pushed by centrifugal force against the wall. If you put a drop of oil an inch inside the tunnel half will be forced in half out. Hopefully the bigger end closer tolerance will keep the oil out.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on February 27, 2018, 06:03:29 AM
the ' fix" well  high speed ( rpm) tends to drastically increase transfer .. So if a given bike is babied along it may be " cured"  however is it really ???  I tune them and ask the customer  if I speak with them. I have had them tell me no its fine. I check the level,,,it  is in the proper range. I run it on the drum and the bike that had no issue no has one.. Must be the dyno monster put a hex on it ..  :hyst:


Tongue in cheek  :wink:   so operation of given bike is going to be part of the test and not just a quick rip through the gears.  Go out put 250 miles on the bike up and down through the gears having a bit of fun with it , some high rpm pulls and then see if it no longer has an issue.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: koko3052 on February 27, 2018, 08:59:36 AM
I'm kind of with you there & the "some do..some don't" mantra. They are all made by the same manufacturer, using the same parts and probably all from the same suppliers. :embarrassed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
 What if you have a lift handed thread on the shaft, it will force the oil back to the trans.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 08:10:36 AM
Quote from: hd06 on February 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
What if you have a lift handed thread on the shaft, it will force the oil back to the trans.

Left hand thread where? :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 08:48:34 AM
A left hand scroll on the end of the shaft that sits toward the primary. In theory it throws any oil back out into the transmission. As we can tell from the very many vintage bikes and cars that used the same method before they had decent oil seals - it sort of works, but only sort of. They all fitted proper oil seals in their later designs.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 11:58:44 AM
Why wouldn't the push rod spin the same RPM as the main shaft most of the time?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on February 28, 2018, 12:00:55 PM
Quote from: hd06 on February 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
What if you have a lift handed thread on the shaft, it will force the oil back to the trans.
There is not enough room, hole is .376 push rod I'd .312. Plus both the rod and the shaft hole are rotating this would force the oil onto the tunnel wall and the threads would have to be a precise fit. The hole/tunnel is not concentric with the shaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 28, 2018, 12:00:55 PM
Quote from: hd06 on February 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
What if you have a lift handed thread on the shaft, it will force the oil back to the trans.
There is not enough room, hole is .376 push rod I'd .312. Plus both the rod and the shaft hole are rotating this would force the oil onto the tunnel wall and the threads would have to be a precise fit. The hole/tunnel is not concentric with the shaft.

No. The old engineers knew that a precise fit was not needed. That left-hand scroll really does send the oil back where it came from. In this case back into the transmission. It doesn't work at all to modern standards, but in 1920 or 1942 or even 1960 it worked to everybodys satisfaction. They expected some leakage. As long as it wasn't an almighty flood of oil it was OK.

Is that particular band-aid good enough in this case? Dunno. Somebody would have to try it and see.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
No. The old engineers knew that a precise fit was not needed. That left-hand scroll really does send the oil back where it came from. In this case back into the transmission. It doesn't work at all to modern standards, but in 1920 or 1942 or even 1960 it worked to everybodys satisfaction. They expected some leakage. As long as it wasn't an almighty flood of oil it was OK.

Is that particular band-aid good enough in this case? Dunno. Somebody would have to try it and see.


Again, it only works with the two shafts turning different speeds. I would bet that about 95%+ of the time the push rod spins the same speed as the main shaft, why wouldn't it?!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 07:54:23 AM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 28, 2018, 12:00:55 PM
Quote from: hd06 on February 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
What if you have a lift handed thread on the shaft, it will force the oil back to the trans.
There is not enough room, hole is .376 push rod I'd .312. Plus both the rod and the shaft hole are rotating this would force the oil onto the tunnel wall and the threads would have to be a precise fit. The hole/tunnel is not concentric with the shaft.
Just to clarify. Is it hole .376 and the pr od .312?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 07, 2018, 10:03:19 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 07:54:23 AM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 28, 2018, 12:00:55 PM
Quote from: hd06 on February 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
What if you have a lift handed thread on the shaft, it will force the oil back to the trans.
There is not enough room, hole is .376 push rod I'd .312. Plus both the rod and the shaft hole are rotating this would force the oil onto the tunnel wall and the threads would have to be a precise fit. The hole/tunnel is not concentric with the shaft.
Just to clarify. Is it hole .376 and the pr od .312?
Ron
Yes Steve Cole said  0.376" - 0.382 and that the hole/tunnel is not concentric, push rod, .312.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 10:45:03 AM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 07, 2018, 10:03:19 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 07:54:23 AM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on February 28, 2018, 12:00:55 PM
Quote from: hd06 on February 27, 2018, 04:36:47 PM
What if you have a lift handed thread on the shaft, it will force the oil back to the trans.
There is not enough room, hole is .376 push rod I'd .312. Plus both the rod and the shaft hole are rotating this would force the oil onto the tunnel wall and the threads would have to be a precise fit. The hole/tunnel is not concentric with the shaft.
Just to clarify. Is it hole .376 and the pr od .312?
Ron
Yes Steve Cole said  0.376" - 0.382 and that the hole/tunnel is not concentric, push rod, .312.
No wonder the damn thing leaks then .  :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
No. The old engineers knew that a precise fit was not needed. That left-hand scroll really does send the oil back where it came from. In this case back into the transmission. It doesn't work at all to modern standards, but in 1920 or 1942 or even 1960 it worked to everybodys satisfaction. They expected some leakage. As long as it wasn't an almighty flood of oil it was OK.

Is that particular band-aid good enough in this case? Dunno. Somebody would have to try it and see.


Again, it only works with the two shafts turning different speeds. I would bet that about 95%+ of the time the push rod spins the same speed as the main shaft, why wouldn't it?!
No.
Now the question becomes: does the clutch pushrod rotate while riding along?
If it does, a left-hand scroll will move some oil back into the transmission.
It it doesn't, well, a left hand scroll will do nothing at all.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 11:57:17 AM
Quote from: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
No. The old engineers knew that a precise fit was not needed. That left-hand scroll really does send the oil back where it came from. In this case back into the transmission. It doesn't work at all to modern standards, but in 1920 or 1942 or even 1960 it worked to everybodys satisfaction. They expected some leakage. As long as it wasn't an almighty flood of oil it was OK.

Is that particular band-aid good enough in this case? Dunno. Somebody would have to try it and see.


Again, it only works with the two shafts turning different speeds. I would bet that about 95%+ of the time the push rod spins the same speed as the main shaft, why wouldn't it?!
No.
Now the question becomes: does the clutch pushrod rotate while riding along?
If it does, a left-hand scroll will move some oil back into the transmission.
It it doesn't, well, a left hand scroll will do nothing at all.
Key is to reduce clearance between the two. There's not enough predictable rotation difference between the two for a screw effect to work, the way I see it. Reducing the gap has obvious effects.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 07, 2018, 12:07:17 PM
 Is the tunnel have a smooth ID, If so could you use a O ring, Just a thought.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 11:57:17 AM
Quote from: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
No. The old engineers knew that a precise fit was not needed. That left-hand scroll really does send the oil back where it came from. In this case back into the transmission. It doesn't work at all to modern standards, but in 1920 or 1942 or even 1960 it worked to everybodys satisfaction. They expected some leakage. As long as it wasn't an almighty flood of oil it was OK.

Is that particular band-aid good enough in this case? Dunno. Somebody would have to try it and see.


Again, it only works with the two shafts turning different speeds. I would bet that about 95%+ of the time the push rod spins the same speed as the main shaft, why wouldn't it?!
No.
Now the question becomes: does the clutch pushrod rotate while riding along?
If it does, a left-hand scroll will move some oil back into the transmission.
It it doesn't, well, a left hand scroll will do nothing at all.
Key is to reduce clearance between the two. There's not enough predictable rotation difference between the two for a screw effect to work, the way I see it. Reducing the gap has obvious effects.
Ron
No No and thrice No! (only the english will get that...)
Owning a V-Rod has made you forget how things were done a 100 years ago.
The speed difference counts for nothing. The clearances count for almost nothing. Tight is good, loose will work.
What matters is: Does that clutch pushrod rotate when the bike is moving down the road?
If it does, a left hand scroll on that clutch pushrod WILL move oil back into the transmission. Not all of it, but some. And if some is good enough it will work.
Really. Talk to anyone you know with a proper old car or bike. They all used the left hand scroll trick instead of proper oil seals. Back then they either cost too much or didn't exist.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 01:39:33 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 12:41:22 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 11:57:17 AM
Quote from: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
No. The old engineers knew that a precise fit was not needed. That left-hand scroll really does send the oil back where it came from. In this case back into the transmission. It doesn't work at all to modern standards, but in 1920 or 1942 or even 1960 it worked to everybodys satisfaction. They expected some leakage. As long as it wasn't an almighty flood of oil it was OK.

Is that particular band-aid good enough in this case? Dunno. Somebody would have to try it and see.


Again, it only works with the two shafts turning different speeds. I would bet that about 95%+ of the time the push rod spins the same speed as the main shaft, why wouldn't it?!
No.
Now the question becomes: does the clutch pushrod rotate while riding along?
If it does, a left-hand scroll will move some oil back into the transmission.
It it doesn't, well, a left hand scroll will do nothing at all.
Key is to reduce clearance between the two. There's not enough predictable rotation difference between the two for a screw effect to work, the way I see it. Reducing the gap has obvious effects.
Ron
No No and thrice No! (only the english will get that...)
Owning a V-Rod has made you forget how things were done a 100 years ago.
The speed difference counts for nothing. The clearances count for almost nothing. Tight is good, loose will work.
What matters is: Does that clutch pushrod rotate when the bike is moving down the road?
If it does, a left hand scroll on that clutch pushrod WILL move oil back into the transmission. Not all of it, but some. And if some is good enough it will work.
Really. Talk to anyone you know with a proper old car or bike. They all used the left hand scroll trick instead of proper oil seals. Back then they either cost too much or didn't exist.
No, I haven't,  didn't forget cruditity, and being 65, even though not involved with Farmers Insurance, I've seen a thing or two.  Pushrod in this case moves with the main shaft as in the same rpm. Any screw effect sealing, the objects move at different speeds or one is stationary and the other rotates. Works quite well, actually.  Clearances count for everything in this case and a good first step to reduce transfer to an acceptable level . I also spent a week on Amarilla Discovery 2, mostly Brits so I'm almost dialed into your language too. :hyst: Only one week. Next time maybe a fortnight. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on March 07, 2018, 02:08:54 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Again, it only works with the two shafts turning different speeds. I would bet that about 95%+ of the time the push rod spins the same speed as the main shaft, why wouldn't it?!
No.
Now the question becomes: does the clutch pushrod rotate while riding along?
If it does, a left-hand scroll will move some oil back into the transmission.
It it doesn't, well, a left hand scroll will do nothing at all.

Again, I ask, why wouldn't the push rod spin along with the main shaft? If it spins slower than the main shaft why isn't there a bearing for the push rod at the clutch end? There is no reason for it not to spin the same speed. There is a reasonable amount of friction along the length, might just be lube, but the lube wants to drag it along, plus the rod has little inertia to over come so it just spins along. There is nothing to stop it from spinning with the main shaft!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on March 07, 2018, 03:31:14 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 07, 2018, 11:57:17 AM
Quote from: PC_Hater on March 07, 2018, 11:33:54 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on February 28, 2018, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on February 28, 2018, 12:54:57 PM
No. The old engineers knew that a precise fit was not needed. That left-hand scroll really does send the oil back where it came from. In this case back into the transmission. It doesn't work at all to modern standards, but in 1920 or 1942 or even 1960 it worked to everybodys satisfaction. They expected some leakage. As long as it wasn't an almighty flood of oil it was OK.

Is that particular band-aid good enough in this case? Dunno. Somebody would have to try it and see.


Again, it only works with the two shafts turning different speeds. I would bet that about 95%+ of the time the push rod spins the same speed as the main shaft, why wouldn't it?!
No.
Now the question becomes: does the clutch pushrod rotate while riding along?
If it does, a left-hand scroll will move some oil back into the transmission.
It it doesn't, well, a left hand scroll will do nothing at all.
Key is to reduce clearance between the two. There's not enough predictable rotation difference between the two for a screw effect to work, the way I see it. Reducing the gap has obvious effects.
Ron
This is why I have seen some suggest trying the '14 CVO 3-piece pushrod that is thicker in diameter. I have no other information, but if you lookup the parts fiche at Ronnies, you do see the different part numbers for a '14 CVO.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 07, 2018, 06:40:00 PM
 OK what if we tap out a left handed thread on the main shaft, centrifugal force may keep the fluid in the trans. Maybe
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: koko3052 on March 08, 2018, 08:08:02 AM
Quote from: hd06 on March 07, 2018, 06:40:00 PM
OK what if we tap out a left handed thread on the main shaft, centrifugal force may keep the fluid in the trans. Maybe

THAT would be the place to start.... because the oil is flung to the inside wall! :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 08, 2018, 09:29:12 AM
Quote from: koko3052 on March 08, 2018, 08:08:02 AM
Quote from: hd06 on March 07, 2018, 06:40:00 PM
OK what if we tap out a left handed thread on the main shaft, centrifugal force may keep the fluid in the trans. Maybe

THAT would be the place to start.... because the oil is flung to the inside wall! :up:
That is the secret, the centrifugal force is what is making the oil run down the tunnel in the shaft in the first place. The way to stop is is to use the centrifugal force and have a dam inside the tunnel that the oil has to climb and the centrifugal force will keep it from doing that.
I've modified my design slightly but the concept is the same.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/htt/IMAG1157_zpsggvdhdu2.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/htt/IMAG1157_zpsggvdhdu2.jpg.html)

The insert is tapered so that it forms a dam, it will have enough clearance so that the push rod will go through and still have enough room for the primary to vent.  Also enough room so that the non concentric tunnel will not be a problem. The oil will not climb up that taper the centrifugal force will force it back towards the opening and be flung out of the end.
There will also be a oil slinger on the push rod so that the oil can not walk down into the tunnel but be flung before getting there, it wont be very large but won't have to be.
I will have prototypes ready in the next day or so and will be looking for volunteers to test them.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 08, 2018, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD, it does not need it, here is a drawing of how the centrifugal force pushes the fluid.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg.html)

The arrows represent how the fluid moves. The fluids are pushed to the widest part of the tube.
I made this to test how the fluid acts inside the rotating shaft, its made out of half inch pvc and has a half inch cpvc bushing inside. It spins at 2000 rpm and sits at about 25-30 degrees to make sure the theory works.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg.html)

I'm trying out different shape bushing inside the tube, they are about an inch long and about a half inch from the end.
I'm using water as a test fluid, pouring it into the top opening, the water will flow right through when the motor is turned off, as soon as you turn it on the water is flung out the top end and will not go past the bushing insert.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on March 08, 2018, 01:56:46 PM
Lay it down level and put one end in a reservoir and fill it with oil above the the opening in the shaft then turn it on. If it will spin with the one end covered with oil and nothing comes out the other end you will have something, that is what is happening in the transmission.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 08, 2018, 03:38:55 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 08, 2018, 01:56:46 PM
Lay it down level and put one end in a reservoir and fill it with oil above the the opening in the shaft then turn it on. If it will spin with the one end covered with oil and nothing comes out the other end you will have something, that is what is happening in the transmission.
The shaft is way above the oil line.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
Not at 5K RPM- the turbulence from the gear set spinning inside the (now narrower than 16 and older) case causes the fluid level to be displaced- and now it's above the mainshaft center.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on March 08, 2018, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
Not at 5K RPM- the turbulence from the gear set spinning inside the (now narrower than 16 and older) case causes the fluid level to be displaced- and now it's above the mainshaft center.

Exactly all the seal and drain back testing has been because fluid is being packed in the cavity at the end of the shaft and the running level of the fluid is above the through hole in the shaft in that compartment.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 08, 2018, 05:19:11 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 08, 2018, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
Not at 5K RPM- the turbulence from the gear set spinning inside the (now narrower than 16 and older) case causes the fluid level to be displaced- and now it's above the mainshaft center.

Exactly all the seal and drain back testing has been because fluid is being packed in the cavity at the end of the shaft and the running level of the fluid is above the through hole in the shaft in that compartment.
I don't think anyone has made a clear cover to actually prove that, and it's possible but
as long as the total outflow force from the taper counters the slight head of the oil being higher trying to get in , it will act like a dam. That's all that's needed.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
A cover has been made, and transfer has occurred.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 08, 2018, 05:52:15 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
A cover has been made, and transfer has occurred.
I would be interest in seeing/reading that.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Moparnut72 on March 09, 2018, 09:16:19 AM
I think if the fluid level stays below the shaft a slinger would take care of most of the problem. In conjunction with the bushing should cure the problem. If the fluid level gets up to the shaft, not splash but actual level, all bets are off. JMO
kk
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 09, 2018, 09:54:54 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
A cover has been made, and transfer has occurred.
Yet the endless pissing around after seeing the cause and effect, when any sane person would groove the pushrod for appropriate  O ring and add a separate primary vent line t'd into the trans line. Both simple as dirt conversions.  A year from now the same old complaints will be happening by avoiding the obvious sure fire fix, the way I see it.  Pushrod only moves about .070 so the O ring will last almost forever. It will allow for pushrod alignment with that non concentric bore to the slave and best of all seal off the oil transfer. It took HD 7 years to solve the compensater oiling issues, with help I might add, so I don't see them coming up with a fix any time soon. At least not until some crafty SOB DIYR makes them look like fools. Then you will buy it at the dealer or they will sneak it into production and probably boast about the new improved.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on March 09, 2018, 12:54:35 PM
Try searching " the fix is in" in HD Forums. It's a fairly lengthy discussion. Steve, Max and others are cooking in the same kitchen. I think it's in the M8 section but not sure.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 09, 2018, 02:19:58 PM
Quote from: kd on March 09, 2018, 12:54:35 PM
Try searching " the fix is in" in HD Forums. It's a fairly lengthy discussion. Steve, Max and others are cooking in the same kitchen. I think it's in the M8 section but not sure.

I've read that a couple of time, will read it again.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 09, 2018, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html)

I will read that also.
The oil line is an inch below the input shaft, yes I can see a lot of turbulence in the oil, I can see a wave or wake in the oil, I can not see the oil coming up and inch.
The input shaft runs at 3000 rpm at 5000 motor, that is going to fling oil every place, and dissipate as much oil as the cavitation of the gears adds on the oil level.
I did read in the "fix is in thread" that the oil gets trapped behind the actuator, this is where the shaft comes in and where the tunnel ends up, there is no seal there, if this is the case then that needs to be addressed. A simple drain hole below the shaft would do it in the inner side cover.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on March 09, 2018, 02:39:32 PM
In one of the following threads a transparent cover was mentioned with which the flooding of the cavity was clearly prooven by Steve (no pics were added):

"who's been having to add Transmission fluid?"
"the fix is in"
"trans, there is a fix!"
"Transmission fluid transfer service Bulletin"
"tranny-to-primary fluid issue"

Unfortunately I cann't find the post without reading numerous pages again.  :embarrassed:

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 03:06:21 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html)

I will read that also.
The oil line is an inch below the input shaft, yes I can see a lot of turbulence in the oil, I can see a wave or wake in the oil, I can not see the oil coming up and inch.
The input shaft runs at 3000 rpm at 5000 motor, that is going to fling oil every place, and dissipate as much oil as the cavitation of the gears adds on the oil level.
I did read in the "fix is in thread" that the oil gets trapped behind the actuator, this is where the shaft comes in and where the tunnel ends up, there is no seal there, if this is the case then that needs to be addressed. A simple drain hole below the shaft would do it in the inner side cover.

You joined us here a little late, start reading here, the next few pages have some pictures.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192054#msg1192054 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192054#msg1192054)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 09, 2018, 03:33:46 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 03:06:21 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html)

I will read that also.
The oil line is an inch below the input shaft, yes I can see a lot of turbulence in the oil, I can see a wave or wake in the oil, I can not see the oil coming up and inch.
The input shaft runs at 3000 rpm at 5000 motor, that is going to fling oil every place, and dissipate as much oil as the cavitation of the gears adds on the oil level.
I did read in the "fix is in thread" that the oil gets trapped behind the actuator, this is where the shaft comes in and where the tunnel ends up, there is no seal there, if this is the case then that needs to be addressed. A simple drain hole below the shaft would do it in the inner side cover.

You joined us here a little late, start reading here, the next few pages have some pictures.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192054#msg1192054 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192054#msg1192054)
I have read that, been a while, has anyone actually tried it? That would drain most of the fluid away from the end of the shaft, I would have to think that part of the push rod is exposed between the inner cover and the shaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 03:44:23 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 03:33:46 PM
I have read that, been a while, has anyone actually tried it? That would drain most of the fluid away from the end of the shaft, I would have to think that part of the push rod is exposed between the inner cover and the shaft.

The end of the shaft actually extends into the hole in the inner side cover.
There has been some testing of return passages but the problem with a simple hole is that the oil is being piled up in that area on both sides of the inner cover so the the oil and pressure seems to be equal and this means the hole does not allow the oil to drain. It is possible that in certain conditions it allows more oil into the cavity where the end of the shaft is.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on March 09, 2018, 03:51:03 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2018, 09:54:54 AMThen you will buy it at the dealer or they will sneak it into production and probably boast about the new improved.
Ron

Pretty much what I said a long while back. HD will make a running change, call it an improvement of some sort, and sweep the while deal under the rug. Just like they have done before.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on March 09, 2018, 04:24:36 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 08, 2018, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD, it does not need it, here is a drawing of how the centrifugal force pushes the fluid.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg.html)

The arrows represent how the fluid moves. The fluids are pushed to the widest part of the tube.
I made this to test how the fluid acts inside the rotating shaft, its made out of half inch pvc and has a half inch cpvc bushing inside. It spins at 2000 rpm and sits at about 25-30 degrees to make sure the theory works.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg.html)

I'm trying out different shape bushing inside the tube, they are about an inch long and about a half inch from the end.
I'm using water as a test fluid, pouring it into the top opening, the water will flow right through when the motor is turned off, as soon as you turn it on the water is flung out the top end and will not go past the bushing insert.

Very good idea.. Don't let 1slork piss in your Wheaties..
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on March 09, 2018, 04:49:28 PM
Man, I must be gettin old. I forgot I posted that link.

I stepped away for supper and didn't post this before the last 3 responses. I'll post anyway.

My understanding is that the Admiral did some machining and was dropping it off with Steve. One of the other members was putting his bike up for a test mule and that should be happening on Steve's dyno about now.

I see Admiral Akbar (Max) is dropping in but he may be sworn to secrecy and not able to confirm how things are going on that front.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 09, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on March 09, 2018, 04:24:36 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 08, 2018, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD, it does not need it, here is a drawing of how the centrifugal force pushes the fluid.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg.html)

The arrows represent how the fluid moves. The fluids are pushed to the widest part of the tube.
I made this to test how the fluid acts inside the rotating shaft, its made out of half inch pvc and has a half inch cpvc bushing inside. It spins at 2000 rpm and sits at about 25-30 degrees to make sure the theory works.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg.html)

I'm trying out different shape bushing inside the tube, they are about an inch long and about a half inch from the end.
I'm using water as a test fluid, pouring it into the top opening, the water will flow right through when the motor is turned off, as soon as you turn it on the water is flung out the top end and will not go past the bushing insert.

Very good idea.. Don't let 1slork piss in your Wheaties..
:up:
I have most of my tooling done, I am waiting for some supplies. Who know if it will work or not, there is a lot going on inside of that transmission.
I like the idea of the seal on the main shaft that you guys are doing. I'm looking for something a little more simple.
We are kicking around a few other ideas also.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on March 09, 2018, 06:21:19 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 04:58:13 PM

:up:
I have most of my tooling done, I am waiting for some supplies. Who know if it will work or not, there is a lot going on inside of that transmission.
I like the idea of the seal on the main shaft that you guys are doing. I'm looking for something a little more simple.
We are kicking around a few other ideas also.

I cannot take any credit for the design. That's all $tonecold's. I only helped with the nuts.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 10, 2018, 04:48:30 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jacob1955 on March 10, 2018, 09:35:09 AM
 Is this supposed to stop the transmission to Primary oil transfer,,,,Is HD going to install as a upgrade on them or do we have to buy and installed or have HD do it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ancient on March 10, 2018, 09:53:07 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Saw it at Surdyke for the low $30's. Still high for what it is. But in moco prices pretty cheap.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on March 10, 2018, 09:55:20 AM
Wonder if that's being installed on new bikes and the factory?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 10, 2018, 10:08:36 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on March 10, 2018, 09:55:20 AM
Wonder if that's being installed on new bikes and the factory?
Probably is but the big question is , does it work? The public are generally the beta testers.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on March 10, 2018, 11:05:44 AM
My bike has a build date of 2/6/18 so maybe it's already in there.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 11, 2018, 06:23:29 AM
I have the centrifugal seal prototype done, the long bushing goes inside the tunnel about a half inch, it's a press fit in the transmission main shaft tunnel. You can see how it is tapered down to a snug fit on the push rod. this is before it is installed in the tunnel.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1166_1_zpsvhqerjzo.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1166_1_zpsvhqerjzo.jpg.html)

The clutch push rod moves freely in the bushing, and there is enough room for it to vent, but it is snug. It is tapered from one end to the other although that is hard to see in a photo.
The short 1/4 inch bushing on the end of the shaft is a slinger that will stop the oil from migrating down the push rod into the tunnel. The short slinger is press fit on the push rod so that once installed will not move.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1169_zpsgcpj7arl.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1169_zpsgcpj7arl.jpg.html)

You can see the tapper is enough so that the slinger can go inside the tapered bushing if necessary when the clutch is depressed and give you an idea of how much the bushing is tapered.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1173_zpsok2rhg4q.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1173_zpsok2rhg4q.jpg.html)

This is what it will look like when long tapered bushing is installed in the shaft tunnel and about where the slinger would run in relation to the end of the shaft.
In theory the slinger will keep oil from moving down the push rod into the tunnel and the spinning shaft with the tapered bushing inside will push any oil out of the shaft tunnel acting as a centrifugal seal.
Here is how the centrifugal force pushes the oil back out of the main shaft tunnel.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg.html)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Uboofer on March 12, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Am I missing something?  HD has a fluid transfer issue on the M8 motors and their solution is to have you buy the fix? 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 12, 2018, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Uboofer on March 12, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Am I missing something?  HD has a fluid transfer issue on the M8 motors and their solution is to have you buy the fix?
Oh course. Sometimes they also call it an SE part . New improved to fix a current condition and make money while at it. :wink: Use to be compensators, now it's adjustable rockers.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on March 12, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Uboofer on March 12, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Am I missing something?  HD has a fluid transfer issue on the M8 motors and their solution is to have you buy the fix?

Pretty sure if your bike is under warranty they will put the kit in for free. The MoCo put a price on it just because someone will want to buy it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 12, 2018, 02:35:33 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 12, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Uboofer on March 12, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Am I missing something?  HD has a fluid transfer issue on the M8 motors and their solution is to have you buy the fix?

Pretty sure if your bike is under warranty they will put the kit in for free. The MoCo put a price on it just because someone will want to buy it.
Likely, once proof of transfer is shown and documented.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 12, 2018, 05:04:43 PM
 If there's not a problem there's nothing to fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on March 13, 2018, 09:10:49 AM
Quote from: hd06 on March 12, 2018, 05:04:43 PM
If there's not a problem there's nothing to fix.
how long will this fix last?  then again people have to check the fluid levels themselves now and again  to see if their bike has the issue. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: pappashelby on March 13, 2018, 03:44:59 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 12, 2018, 02:35:33 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 12, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Uboofer on March 12, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Am I missing something?  HD has a fluid transfer issue on the M8 motors and their solution is to have you buy the fix?

Pretty sure if your bike is under warranty they will put the kit in for free. The MoCo put a price on it just because someone will want to buy it.
Likely, once proof of transfer is shown and documented.
Ron
Shop said I transferred 12oz in 1k miles. They ordered the kit today. Will be done under warranty
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 14, 2018, 07:00:47 AM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 13, 2018, 03:44:59 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 12, 2018, 02:35:33 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 12, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Uboofer on March 12, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Am I missing something?  HD has a fluid transfer issue on the M8 motors and their solution is to have you buy the fix?

Pretty sure if your bike is under warranty they will put the kit in for free. The MoCo put a price on it just because someone will want to buy it.
Likely, once proof of transfer is shown and documented.
Ron
Shop said I transferred 12oz in 1k miles. They ordered the kit today. Will be done under warranty
Wow. That's pretty bad.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on March 14, 2018, 08:35:46 AM
Would it be a good idea to install this kit as PM on a bike that doesn't seem to have the transfer issue at this time?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 14, 2018, 11:20:46 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on March 14, 2018, 08:35:46 AM
Would it be a good idea to install this kit as PM on a bike that doesn't seem to have the transfer issue at this time?
What I find odd the damn things are all built the same so they should all transfer or not transfer. How it's operated seems to be the only logical cause, as in higher rpms vs lower rpms operation. As for the new part , can't see it hurting and could be called an upgrade, providing it actually does what it claims to do. Jury still out on that.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on March 14, 2018, 01:18:23 PM
Funny HD doesn't sell it as an SE part! :potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 14, 2018, 02:20:02 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 14, 2018, 01:18:23 PM
Funny HD doesn't sell it as an SE part! :potstir:
Must be a part that's in current production then. I can't seem to bring up the link for that kit any more . Wonder if they are still avialable?:idunno:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Oz Dan on March 14, 2018, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 14, 2018, 11:20:46 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on March 14, 2018, 08:35:46 AM
Would it be a good idea to install this kit as PM on a bike that doesn't seem to have the transfer issue at this time?
What I find odd the damn things are all built the same so they should all transfer or not transfer. How it's operated seems to be the only logical cause, as in higher rpms vs lower rpms operation. As for the new part , can't see it hurting and could be called an upgrade, providing it actually does what it claims to do. Jury still out on that.
Ron

The rpm thing does seem logical, but my M8 has been dyno tuned twice. It didn't transfer any oil during either tune, and I watched them do the tunes......ran then right up to red line multiple times.  Nor does it transfer during regular riding, sometimes at high rpm, and I now have over 20,000 km.......I can't get my head around why most don't but some do either.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on March 14, 2018, 05:29:10 PM
Quote from: Oz Dan on March 14, 2018, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 14, 2018, 11:20:46 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on March 14, 2018, 08:35:46 AM
Would it be a good idea to install this kit as PM on a bike that doesn't seem to have the transfer issue at this time?
What I find odd the damn things are all built the same so they should all transfer or not transfer. How it's operated seems to be the only logical cause, as in higher rpms vs lower rpms operation. As for the new part , can't see it hurting and could be called an upgrade, providing it actually does what it claims to do. Jury still out on that.
Ron

The rpm thing does seem logical, but my M8 has been dyno tuned twice. It didn't transfer any oil during either tune, and I watched them do the tunes......ran then right up to red line multiple times.  Nor does it transfer during regular riding, sometimes at high rpm, and I now have over 20,000 km.......I can't get my head around why most don't but some do either.
Its been reported that some do it while sitting on the kickstand and idling, that makes since with the bike at an angle. I wonder if the ones transfuring really bad on the dyno were at an angle?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 14, 2018, 06:57:55 PM
 What about making left hand turns.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on March 15, 2018, 06:19:00 AM
Quote from: hd06 on March 14, 2018, 06:57:55 PM
What about making left hand turns.
Or even right hand turns depending on your speed because centrifugal force would tend to push fluid to the left if you're doing high speed twisties. Or maybe I'm clueless.  :doh:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 15, 2018, 07:43:07 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on March 15, 2018, 06:19:00 AM
Quote from: hd06 on March 14, 2018, 06:57:55 PM
What about making left hand turns.
Or even right hand turns depending on your speed because centrifugal force would tend to push fluid to the left if you're doing high speed twisties. Or maybe I'm clueless.  :doh:
Centrifugal force will be centered in the bike or you would fall over. Fluid remains in the same position as upright during turns at speed.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Oz Dan on March 15, 2018, 02:09:15 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 14, 2018, 05:29:10 PM
Quote from: Oz Dan on March 14, 2018, 04:47:03 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 14, 2018, 11:20:46 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on March 14, 2018, 08:35:46 AM
Would it be a good idea to install this kit as PM on a bike that doesn't seem to have the transfer issue at this time?
What I find odd the damn things are all built the same so they should all transfer or not transfer. How it's operated seems to be the only logical cause, as in higher rpms vs lower rpms operation. As for the new part , can't see it hurting and could be called an upgrade, providing it actually does what it claims to do. Jury still out on that.
Ron

The rpm thing does seem logical, but my M8 has been dyno tuned twice. It didn't transfer any oil during either tune, and I watched them do the tunes......ran then right up to red line multiple times.  Nor does it transfer during regular riding, sometimes at high rpm, and I now have over 20,000 km.......I can't get my head around why most don't but some do either.
Its been reported that some do it while sitting on the kickstand and idling, that makes since with the bike at an angle. I wonder if the ones transfuring really bad on the dyno were at an angle?

lol. I doubt it. I know many seem suspicious when people report no transfer under conditions they have witnessed it, but it is what it is. How can there be some inherent design flaw if my M8 has undergone two dyno sessions without any transfer, and covered 20,000km again without transfer?

A mystery for sure, but if anyone dynos bikes on the side stand or on an angle, I'd lmao. Would be a pretty unique set up hey?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 15, 2018, 07:35:07 PM
I cam ride mine 240 miles and loose 4 oz.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 15, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
 My bad not lose but transfer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: pappashelby on March 16, 2018, 02:00:40 PM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 13, 2018, 03:44:59 PM
Quote from: rbabos on March 12, 2018, 02:35:33 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 12, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Uboofer on March 12, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 10, 2018, 05:57:02 AM
Interesting, that kit is available in GB-36300028 retails for ~45 pounds. That's pricey, for 1 gasket and 1 plastic tube...

Am I missing something?  HD has a fluid transfer issue on the M8 motors and their solution is to have you buy the fix?

Pretty sure if your bike is under warranty they will put the kit in for free. The MoCo put a price on it just because someone will want to buy it.
Likely, once proof of transfer is shown and documented.
Ron
Shop said I transferred 12oz in 1k miles. They ordered the kit today. Will be done under warranty

Shop called today the kit is in . Probably won't take it in until Tuesday
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on March 22, 2018, 07:39:06 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on February 24, 2018, 10:29:44 AM
The saga continues...here's a thread on one of the latest attempts at a cure: https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html (https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1219654-the-fix-is-in.html)

Last few pages, Bruce/Max/Admiral is getting involved...machining the nuts.

Looks like some decent results from their work. Check last couple of pages.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on March 22, 2018, 07:59:49 AM
Actually pg 22/ 23 on will be better to get the gist of it.  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on March 22, 2018, 08:03:26 AM
Quote from: kd on March 22, 2018, 07:59:49 AM
Actually pg 22/ 23 on will be better to get the gist of it.  :up:
Yeah, that's what I meant, should have worded it that way  :embarrassed: It appears to possibly be some decent progress.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on March 25, 2018, 04:59:28 PM
Does Harley have a notice or whatever for the transmission oil deflector kit. I'm trying to get it done under warranty and the dealer cannot find anything from
Harley yet.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on March 25, 2018, 05:35:40 PM
There is no service bulletin or advisory on this at all only the Part Number.....they will have to call the factory and request it be installed ...even then its not a sure thing that they will OK it
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on March 25, 2018, 10:02:18 PM
TRANSMISSION OIL DEFLECTOR KIT
Kit Number 36300028
Instruction J06703
Date 2018-01-31
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 26, 2018, 05:52:31 AM
Quote from: HV on March 25, 2018, 05:35:40 PM
There is no service bulletin or advisory on this at all only the Part Number.....they will have to call the factory and request it be installed ...even then its not a sure thing that they will OK it
There was one. I read it for the part install. It has magically vanished from the internet. Translation, the damn thing likely never worked so they secretively dumped it.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on March 26, 2018, 06:10:46 AM
The only thing Ive seen is the Instruction sheet for that Part # ...even searching the HD Net site shows no actual Bulletin
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on March 26, 2018, 06:13:34 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 26, 2018, 05:52:31 AM
Quote from: HV on March 25, 2018, 05:35:40 PM
There is no service bulletin or advisory on this at all only the Part Number.....they will have to call the factory and request it be installed ...even then its not a sure thing that they will OK it
There was one. I read it for the part install. It has magically vanished from the internet. Translation, the damn thing likely never worked so they secretively dumped it.
Ron


..... or more likely, they are still following the 2 fixes that are being tested on the 2 Harley forums and trying to figure out which one is the cheapest and easiest to steal.  :crook:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on March 26, 2018, 06:35:41 AM
I know for a Fact they did away with their " Replace the front Main seal and spacer Fix "  :SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on March 26, 2018, 06:39:01 AM
Quote from: HV on March 26, 2018, 06:35:41 AM
I know for a Fact they did away with their " Replace the front Main seal and spacer Fix "  :SM:


That was just silly . No way was it sucking fluid only  to the primary and then stopping .  :hyst: :hyst:  Selective vacuum  :wtf:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on March 26, 2018, 07:23:45 AM
I get a little ticked off with Harley. I live about 8 miles from the York plant and the dealer is about 1 mile away and they can't get anything from Harley yet but they say they will keep trying. If worse comes to worse I'll buy the kit and put it in myself.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 26, 2018, 07:31:23 AM
Quote from: kd on March 26, 2018, 06:13:34 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 26, 2018, 05:52:31 AM
Quote from: HV on March 25, 2018, 05:35:40 PM
There is no service bulletin or advisory on this at all only the Part Number.....they will have to call the factory and request it be installed ...even then its not a sure thing that they will OK it
There was one. I read it for the part install. It has magically vanished from the internet. Translation, the damn thing likely never worked so they secretively dumped it.
Ron


..... or more likely, they are still following the 2 fixes that are being tested on the 2 Harley forums and trying to figure out which one is the cheapest and easiest to steal.  :crook:
No chit!
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on March 26, 2018, 11:29:26 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on March 26, 2018, 06:39:01 AM
Quote from: HV on March 26, 2018, 06:35:41 AM
I know for a Fact they did away with their " Replace the front Main seal and spacer Fix "  :SM:


That was just silly . No way was it sucking fluid only  to the primary and then stopping .  :hyst: :hyst:  Selective vacuum  :wtf:

I thought that was far out when I first read it. 

So easy to have tested and proved/disproved this on a known transferring bike prior to making it an official recommendation.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 26, 2018, 12:20:08 PM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on March 26, 2018, 11:29:26 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on March 26, 2018, 06:39:01 AM
Quote from: HV on March 26, 2018, 06:35:41 AM
I know for a Fact they did away with their " Replace the front Main seal and spacer Fix "  :SM:


That was just silly . No way was it sucking fluid only  to the primary and then stopping .  :hyst: :hyst:  Selective vacuum  :wtf:

I thought that was far out when I first read it. 

So easy to have tested and proved/disproved this on a known transferring bike prior to making it an official recommendation.
Yes but nobody bothered.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: justaguy on March 26, 2018, 02:36:32 PM
They are still saying to replace the front main seal and spacer for '14-'16 Models. The oil deflector kits are only for the M8 '17-'18. My service manager talked to them this at about a '16 that is transferring.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: les on March 27, 2018, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:

Hmmm...I wonder what your state lemon law specifies about the repeat count.  Three times and a new motorcycle, perhaps?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on March 27, 2018, 10:39:29 AM
Quote from: les on March 27, 2018, 10:04:39 AM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:

Hmmm...I wonder what your state lemon law specifies about the repeat count.  Three times and a new motorcycle, perhaps?

That's been brought up, evidently it doesn't always apply to motorcycles.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 27, 2018, 10:43:48 AM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:
That's the one I was talking about. I got to read it and next time I went to look it was a dead link, just like that. Also read about the same time someone had it installed and it didn't solve the problem. Coincidence?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on March 27, 2018, 11:42:48 AM
ya need better memories  or check the Instruction Sheets General & News

try https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/417967
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on March 27, 2018, 01:41:22 PM
Quote from: justaguy on March 26, 2018, 02:36:32 PM
They are still saying to replace the front main seal and spacer for '14-'16 Models. The oil deflector kits are only for the M8 '17-'18. My service manager talked to them this at about a '16 that is transferring.




Yes the oil transfer is only showing up on the M8s here so far
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: koko3052 on March 28, 2018, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:


Sounds like the dealer stroking you for 3 oil changes. :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:


Had mine in one time for the 1k check(lost 12oz) They ordered the new kit(fix) had it in about 3 days. Got installed about a week ago only have 250 miles on it, to early to tell if it will help. good luck
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: primebiker06 on March 28, 2018, 01:30:25 PM
was wondering do the m8 trans have the quad ring on main trans shaft ? could get in there?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: twincamzz on March 28, 2018, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:


Had mine in one time for the 1k check(lost 12oz) They ordered the new kit(fix) had it in about 3 days. Got installed about a week ago only have 250 miles on it, to early to tell if it will help. good luck

I dropped mine off at dealer this afternoon for first drain and refill of primary and transmission. Then have to return in 1000 miles for them to recheck fluid levels.

Thanks for your reply pappashelby. Please let us know if this kit takes care of the issue for you.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: twincamzz on March 28, 2018, 05:38:24 PM
Quote from: koko3052 on March 28, 2018, 11:50:25 AM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:


Sounds like the dealer stroking you for 3 oil changes. :wink:

Not charging me anything, all covered under warranty. Just a PITA since they have already established problem exists on my motorcycle, so why not just go ahead and install kit and be done with it ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 28, 2018, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:


Had mine in one time for the 1k check(lost 12oz) They ordered the new kit(fix) had it in about 3 days. Got installed about a week ago only have 250 miles on it, to early to tell if it will help. good luck

I dropped mine off at dealer this afternoon for first drain and refill of primary and transmission. Then have to return in 1000 miles for them to recheck fluid levels.

Thanks for your reply pappashelby. Please let us know if this kit takes care of the issue for you.

That 3 times seems bogus to me. 1 check of mine and they got the kit.  Anyway I have 350 miles and still shows full
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on April 01, 2018, 08:54:02 AM
My fix is working, after dyno testing seven cams there was no transfer or leakage. Oil did vaporize in the primary and condense in the actuator pocket, something I was hoping would happen to lube the connection between the pushrod and actuator. We added an O-ring from a '15 model to stem any leakage that might occur because of the condensation.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on April 01, 2018, 09:33:12 AM
 :up:  I followed your progress on the other site. Huge kudos to you all for your all of your efforts and sacrifices. That was great team work. Now sit back and watch the MOCO steal the idea and patent it.  :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: pappashelby on April 01, 2018, 09:48:56 AM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 28, 2018, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:


Had mine in one time for the 1k check(lost 12oz) They ordered the new kit(fix) had it in about 3 days. Got installed about a week ago only have 250 miles on it, to early to tell if it will help. good luck

I dropped mine off at dealer this afternoon for first drain and refill of primary and transmission. Then have to return in 1000 miles for them to recheck fluid levels.

Thanks for your reply pappashelby. Please let us know if this kit takes care of the issue for you.

That 3 times seems bogus to me. 1 check of mine and they got the kit.  Anyway I have 350 miles and still shows full

Seems to be working for me. 550 miles and still no transfer
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on April 01, 2018, 10:26:02 AM
Quote from: pappashelby on April 01, 2018, 09:48:56 AM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 06:34:20 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 28, 2018, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: pappashelby on March 28, 2018, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on March 27, 2018, 08:41:03 AM
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/379300

appears link is no longer valid... or at least for me. Is the MoCo trying to now pretend this part does not exist ? Too much demand ? Talked to my dealer this morning & was told to bring motorcycle in, let them drain & adjust fluid levels, then recheck in 1000 miles. Says this will have to happen at least THREE times before factory will consider installing this kit in my motorcycle, despite the fact that it has already been in for first attempt at repair under TA0022. WTF ?   :banghead:


Had mine in one time for the 1k check(lost 12oz) They ordered the new kit(fix) had it in about 3 days. Got installed about a week ago only have 250 miles on it, to early to tell if it will help. good luck

I dropped mine off at dealer this afternoon for first drain and refill of primary and transmission. Then have to return in 1000 miles for them to recheck fluid levels.

Thanks for your reply pappashelby. Please let us know if this kit takes care of the issue for you.

That 3 times seems bogus to me. 1 check of mine and they got the kit.  Anyway I have 350 miles and still shows full

Seems to be working for me. 550 miles and still no transfer

I really hope that it continues to work for you and everyone else that has the problem and gets their fix. I have no reason to want to see them fail!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on April 01, 2018, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: kd on April 01, 2018, 09:33:12 AM
:up:  I followed your progress on the other site. Huge kudos to you all for your all of your efforts and sacrifices. That was great team work. Now sit back and watch the MOCO steal the idea and patent it.  :banghead:

It wouldn't bother me if they did steal it. I have done this for my own peace of mind while riding my M8. If someone wants one and is willing to pay the price I will try to accommodate them, but I'm not trying to start a business here. I have been told they won't go with this fix because the venting through the actuator will require them to re-qualify with the EPA and CARB and that is a very expensive process. If they were to make other changes to the engine that would require this, then they might try it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jim Bronson on April 01, 2018, 02:46:31 PM
I've been following this thread with interest, even though I don't own an M8 (yet). I'll just say a big  :up: to everyone who had a hand in developing this. It makes me more confident in purchasing an M8 if I ever decide to.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on April 02, 2018, 04:31:49 AM
Quote from: $tonecold on April 01, 2018, 08:54:02 AM
My fix is working, after dyno testing seven cams there was no transfer or leakage. Oil did vaporize in the primary and condense in the actuator pocket, something I was hoping would happen to lube the connection between the pushrod and actuator. We added an O-ring from a '15 model to stem any leakage that might occur because of the condensation.
Have followed you on the other site also, good stuff. Congratulations on your work.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Deye76 on April 05, 2018, 05:09:38 AM
Is the transfer happening on all models of M8, or just the baggers?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on April 05, 2018, 01:28:17 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 05, 2018, 05:09:38 AM
Is the transfer happening on all models of M8, or just the baggers?

As far as I know it is only happening on models with a hydraulic clutch. My '15 Road Glide is also transferring, but I did replace the stock transmission with a DD7.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06myway on May 03, 2018, 12:21:00 PM
wow does this mean the fluid transfer issue is officially OVER now?!!! Yeaaaaaaaaaaaa... kidding aside I THINK U FOLKS HERE SHOULD TAKE A BOW AND DESERVE A HAND for identifying this problem and staying on it until the MOCO finaly realized it was real... :hug:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 47FL80 on June 02, 2018, 12:30:09 PM
I have a 2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited, with 13,965 miles on it.  I noted when preparing for a trip to Hyder, Alaska over Memorial Day weekend that the primary had 32 ounces of fluid and the transmission had 24.  I service my bikes and had put 28 ounces of fluid in the primary and 30 in the transmission at 8,279 miles.  I changed the fluids for the Hyder run on 24 May at about 12,000 miles on the odometer, again ensuring there was 28 in the primary and 30 in the transmission.  After short of 2,000 miles round trip, the primary again had 32 ounces and the transmission was down to 24 ounces. 

What I notice is that after a service, the primary sounds good.  After about a thousand miles, there is a rattle when taking off from a stop.  Too much drag on the clutch/primary components?

So, as a test, I put in 24 ounces of Redline Shock Proof Heavy into the transmission at the service I just did and 28 ounces of BelRay primary fluid in the primary.  My reasoning is that MAYBE the Harley spec of 30 ounces is too much fluid in the transmission.

I depart for a Big Alaska Run on 11 June, planning 21 days of riding.  I will find out if the fluid transfers from the transmission to the primary in the approximate 7,000 mile round trip.  I'm hedging my bets by taking extra transmission fluid, an empty BelRay primary fluid container, and a syringe to be able to bleed fluid out of the primary if it grows and be able to put transmission fluid into the transmission if it gets too low.  I can just detect the transmission fluid on the dip stick with the 24 ounces, so will keep an eye on both the transmission and primary.

In any case, it seems like Harley needs fix this issue with a recall.

In my opinion, this motorcycle is the best one I have ridden in over 50 years of riding.  Warts and all!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: BigMo on June 02, 2018, 02:55:29 PM
Ok, I want the fix, or the instructions to be able to install it on my 2018 Road King before it decides to start this "Potty mouth" too....so where is the parts list, method/instructions, etc. so I can do this....thanks for working this out so we can enjoy these damn machines without worry or issues while cruising the back country....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on June 06, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
Quote from: CAPNBOB on June 02, 2018, 12:30:09 PM
I have a 2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited, with 13,965 miles on it.  I noted when preparing for a trip to Hyder, Alaska over Memorial Day weekend that the primary had 32 ounces of fluid and the transmission had 24.  I service my bikes and had put 28 ounces of fluid in the primary and 30 in the transmission at 8,279 miles.  I changed the fluids for the Hyder run on 24 May at about 12,000 miles on the odometer, again ensuring there was 28 in the primary and 30 in the transmission.  After short of 2,000 miles round trip, the primary again had 32 ounces and the transmission was down to 24 ounces. 

What I notice is that after a service, the primary sounds good.  After about a thousand miles, there is a rattle when taking off from a stop.  Too much drag on the clutch/primary components?

So, as a test, I put in 24 ounces of Redline Shock Proof Heavy into the transmission at the service I just did and 28 ounces of BelRay primary fluid in the primary.  My reasoning is that MAYBE the Harley spec of 30 ounces is too much fluid in the transmission.

I depart for a Big Alaska Run on 11 June, planning 21 days of riding.  I will find out if the fluid transfers from the transmission to the primary in the approximate 7,000 mile round trip.  I'm hedging my bets by taking extra transmission fluid, an empty BelRay primary fluid container, and a syringe to be able to bleed fluid out of the primary if it grows and be able to put transmission fluid into the transmission if it gets too low.  I can just detect the transmission fluid on the dip stick with the 24 ounces, so will keep an eye on both the transmission and primary.

In any case, it seems like Harley needs fix this issue with a recall.

In my opinion, this motorcycle is the best one I have ridden in over 50 years of riding.  Warts and all!

Why don't you have your dealer fix it before you leave.? they  have the fix it kit , or should have 10 in stock at anytime . There is lots of bike out there  needing the fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on June 07, 2018, 03:02:37 AM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on June 06, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
Quote from: CAPNBOB on June 02, 2018, 12:30:09 PM
I have a 2017 FLHTK Ultra Limited, with 13,965 miles on it.  I noted when preparing for a trip to Hyder, Alaska over Memorial Day weekend that the primary had 32 ounces of fluid and the transmission had 24.  I service my bikes and had put 28 ounces of fluid in the primary and 30 in the transmission at 8,279 miles.  I changed the fluids for the Hyder run on 24 May at about 12,000 miles on the odometer, again ensuring there was 28 in the primary and 30 in the transmission.  After short of 2,000 miles round trip, the primary again had 32 ounces and the transmission was down to 24 ounces. 

What I notice is that after a service, the primary sounds good.  After about a thousand miles, there is a rattle when taking off from a stop.  Too much drag on the clutch/primary components?

So, as a test, I put in 24 ounces of Redline Shock Proof Heavy into the transmission at the service I just did and 28 ounces of BelRay primary fluid in the primary.  My reasoning is that MAYBE the Harley spec of 30 ounces is too much fluid in the transmission.

I depart for a Big Alaska Run on 11 June, planning 21 days of riding.  I will find out if the fluid transfers from the transmission to the primary in the approximate 7,000 mile round trip.  I'm hedging my bets by taking extra transmission fluid, an empty BelRay primary fluid container, and a syringe to be able to bleed fluid out of the primary if it grows and be able to put transmission fluid into the transmission if it gets too low.  I can just detect the transmission fluid on the dip stick with the 24 ounces, so will keep an eye on both the transmission and primary.

In any case, it seems like Harley needs fix this issue with a recall.

In my opinion, this motorcycle is the best one I have ridden in over 50 years of riding.  Warts and all!

Why don't you have your dealer fix it before you leave.? they  have the fix it kit , or should have 10 in stock at anytime . There is lots of bike out there  needing the fix.
From the early reports that I have heard the HD dealer fix is not working, have you heard otherwise?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 47FL80 on June 07, 2018, 11:48:41 AM
I was not aware there was a fix for this issue from Harley.  Have called my Harley dealer to ask about it.

As a follow up, I run a small shop and have a customer bike in here right now for a 10K, 2017 FLHTKUL.  Since the 5K service, the transmission has lost about 10 ounces and I measure a gain of 7 ounces in the primary.  Transmission is at about 18 ounces and the primary is at a bit over 37 ounces.  I put about 28 ounces in the transmission at 5K and told him to check the level when hot, and I put in 30 ounces in the primary.  He may have checked the transmission, or not.  I try to be sure not to over fill any of the cavities, since I believe too much is much worse than a little too low. 

Waiting to hear back from the HD store concerning a fix.

Thank you.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 47FL80 on June 07, 2018, 12:23:04 PM
Had a call back from the Harley store and they said there is no fix they are aware of, but that Harley-Davidson is aware of the issue and is working on it.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on June 07, 2018, 01:26:47 PM
Tell them to look up 36300028, HD trans oil deflector kit.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 47FL80 on June 07, 2018, 05:57:18 PM
Pulled it down, printed it, seems to be the fix being discussed.  Called the Harley store, they say they know nothing about it and when the parts guy tried to get one for me, he said only the service department can get it and had some kind of lock on it from the Motor Company.  About a $14,00 part, it seems.  Looking at the Transmission Oil Deflector Kit Instructions, it would be pretty simple to install, but I cannot get one and they do not have any.

Sad.  As noted earlier, I depart for a Big Alaska Run on my 2017 FLHTKUL on 11 June, sure would be nice to have this done before I go.  If I had the kit, I'd do it myself and not worry about any recall or warranty issues., but that does not seem to be in the cards.  So, I will stick with my plan and carry extra transmission fluid and the syringe to suck oil out of the primary every 1,000 miles or so, and get it fixed in July when I'm home from the Run.

Thank you, VERY much for guiding me to this Instruction sheet, rigidthumper.  At least, I can see down the road there will be a fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on June 09, 2018, 04:07:04 AM
Took my 17 RK to dealer for the fix. Was told they would have to drain the transmission and primary and fill with formula or Harley syn 3 and then ride 1,000 miles and check the levels. It sort of pi$$s me off since I just filled the transmission and primary to the correct levels. When I get the bike back we'll see how it goes with Harley.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 06:04:18 AM
Quote from: Bigs on June 09, 2018, 04:07:04 AM
Took my 17 RK to dealer for the fix. Was told they would have to drain the transmission and primary and fill with formula or Harley syn 3 and then ride 1,000 miles and check the levels. It sort of pi$$s me off since I just filled the transmission and primary to the correct levels. When I get the bike back we'll see how it goes with Harley.
   Bigs
I would be way beyond sort of. This has gone on way too long with these bikes.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 10, 2018, 06:09:28 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 06:04:18 AM
Quote from: Bigs on June 09, 2018, 04:07:04 AM
Took my 17 RK to dealer for the fix. Was told they would have to drain the transmission and primary and fill with formula or Harley syn 3 and then ride 1,000 miles and check the levels. It sort of pi$$s me off since I just filled the transmission and primary to the correct levels. When I get the bike back we'll see how it goes with Harley.
   Bigs
I would be way beyond sort of. This has gone on way too long with these bikes.



I wonder how many have been affected. Part of me thinks it is a small percentage, it would explain one reason why the MoCo has been so slow to come up with w repair. I am sure the cost of repairs is also on their minds. They don't want to end up with a recall and still $$ into all M8's produced with hydraulic clutches.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 07:10:01 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 10, 2018, 06:09:28 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 06:04:18 AM
Quote from: Bigs on June 09, 2018, 04:07:04 AM
Took my 17 RK to dealer for the fix. Was told they would have to drain the transmission and primary and fill with formula or Harley syn 3 and then ride 1,000 miles and check the levels. It sort of pi$$s me off since I just filled the transmission and primary to the correct levels. When I get the bike back we'll see how it goes with Harley.
   Bigs
I would be way beyond sort of. This has gone on way too long with these bikes.



I wonder how many have been affected. Part of me thinks it is a small percentage, it would explain one reason why the MoCo has been so slow to come up with w repair. I am sure the cost of repairs is also on their minds. They don't want to end up with a recall and still $$ into all M8's produced with hydraulic clutches.
Ron
Not sure I buy that. If they are all designed the same way, they either all don't or all will transfer in the right conditions.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on June 10, 2018, 07:35:01 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 07:10:01 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 10, 2018, 06:09:28 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 06:04:18 AM
Quote from: Bigs on June 09, 2018, 04:07:04 AM
Took my 17 RK to dealer for the fix. Was told they would have to drain the transmission and primary and fill with formula or Harley syn 3 and then ride 1,000 miles and check the levels. It sort of pi$$s me off since I just filled the transmission and primary to the correct levels. When I get the bike back we'll see how it goes with Harley.
   Bigs
I would be way beyond sort of. This has gone on way too long with these bikes.



I wonder how many have been affected. Part of me thinks it is a small percentage, it would explain one reason why the MoCo has been so slow to come up with w repair. I am sure the cost of repairs is also on their minds. They don't want to end up with a recall and still $$ into all M8's produced with hydraulic clutches.
Ron
Not sure I buy that. If they are all designed the same way, they either all don't or all will transfer in the right conditions.
Ron
I think the problem is greater than we think, most bikes under warranty are taken in for service every 2500 and no one checks how much fluid runs out. Most do not even know there is a problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on June 10, 2018, 07:57:36 AM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on June 10, 2018, 07:35:01 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 07:10:01 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 10, 2018, 06:09:28 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 10, 2018, 06:04:18 AM
Quote from: Bigs on June 09, 2018, 04:07:04 AM
Took my 17 RK to dealer for the fix. Was told they would have to drain the transmission and primary and fill with formula or Harley syn 3 and then ride 1,000 miles and check the levels. It sort of pi$$s me off since I just filled the transmission and primary to the correct levels. When I get the bike back we'll see how it goes with Harley.
   Bigs


I would be way beyond sort of. This has gone on way too long with these bikes.



I wonder how many have been affected. Part of me thinks it is a small percentage, it would explain one reason why the MoCo has been so slow to come up with w repair. I am sure the cost of repairs is also on their minds. They don't want to end up with a recall and still $$ into all M8's produced with hydraulic clutches.
Ron
Not sure I buy that. If they are all designed the same way, they either all don't or all will transfer in the right conditions.
Ron
I think the problem is greater than we think, most bikes under warranty are taken in for service every 2500 and no one checks how much fluid runs out. Most do not even know there is a problem.
the sumping issue is not recognized all to often   also. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 47FL80 on June 10, 2018, 02:39:24 PM
At the 5,000 mile, prescribed, service intervals, at least on one of my customer bikes, 7 ounces had migrated.  On my own 2017 FLHTKUL, in less than 2,000 miles, about 4 ounces migrated.  I believe it is significant.  Owners rarely bring their bikes in for even the 5,000 mile interval service, so with 6 or 7 ounces of extra fluid in the primary, there is significant drag on the clutch.  I believe this is happening with all M8 motorcycles IF they are equipped with a hydraulic clutch.  That is not an insignificant number of motorcycles, nor is it an insignificant problem.  I now have customers who tell me it is getting to be difficult to "find" neutral.  Some of these customers are long-time, hard-core, FAST riders, and that may contribute to the migration, I do not know.  In the less than 2,000 mile trip I describe, I ran hard, though, never over 87.99 MPH recorded on my Dyno Power Vision module, at least, not when I was looking at it!  :-)  The bike is built to run that fast, so this should not be happening at any speed.  It is an issue, as we all know.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: triumph60 on June 11, 2018, 03:56:36 PM
My 2018 streetglide 107 had 10 ounzes transfer to the primary in 4000 Klm and Harley refused to look at the problem !,, thy told me to moniter the oil level every 1000klm and have a harley tech check it and record the amounts ?..so much for any long distance touring on this 30 thousand dollar tourer .I think I solved the problem by not putting 32 ounzes in the primary just 22 and it has not transferred any transmission oil in the last 4000 klm ?? I'm no engineer but with the new clutch and narrower primary cover 32 ounzes is causing a vacuum effect with that amount of oil splashing in there !,so far it seems to have solved the transfer issue
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on June 11, 2018, 08:29:52 PM
Quote from: triumph60 on June 11, 2018, 03:56:36 PM
My 2018 streetglide 107 had 10 ounzes transfer to the primary in 4000 Klm and Harley refused to look at the problem !,, thy told me to moniter the oil level every 1000klm and have a harley tech check it and record the amounts ?..so much for any long distance touring on this 30 thousand dollar tourer .I think I solved the problem by not putting 32 ounzes in the primary just 22 and it has not transferred any transmission oil in the last 4000 klm ?? I'm no engineer but with the new clutch and narrower primary cover 32 ounzes is causing a vacuum effect with that amount of oil splashing in there !,so far it seems to have solved the transfer issue

If that were the case a simple vent on the primary, which I believe has already been tried, would have worked.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 12, 2018, 05:38:15 AM
Who and where was the primary vented. Any pics?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bobrk1 on June 12, 2018, 05:58:16 AM
Dan you  have  a  lot  of  replies  was  on a  different  site  guy has  same  problem , there  is  a  seat  that  causes  the  problem 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 12, 2018, 07:25:53 AM
I have wondered if it has something to do with the clutch acting as a "fan", spinning and producing a low pressure area at the cltch hub. Maybe if the pressure plate had more openings to let air circulate through the clutch. :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on June 12, 2018, 07:46:24 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 12, 2018, 07:25:53 AM
I have wondered if it has something to do with the clutch acting as a "fan", spinning and producing a low pressure area at the cltch hub. Maybe if the pressure plate had more openings to let air circulate through the clutch. :idunno:


Now I like that theory.  :up:  It only takes a few drops per hour to add up to ounces in a few thousand miles of spirited riding. It does seem that there is a connection to that type of use and lower clutch basket RPM would likely have little or no effect on the fan type draw scenario.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on June 12, 2018, 08:41:08 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 12, 2018, 05:38:15 AM
Who and where was the primary vented. Any pics?

The guy added an o-ring to the pushrod and vented the primary as shown. It worked!

[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on June 12, 2018, 08:58:12 AM
Makes sense- O-ring on the pushrod stopped the transfer/flow, and having the inner vented to atmosphere keeps the primary from pressurizing, and the primary gasket from seeping.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on June 12, 2018, 10:21:54 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on June 12, 2018, 08:58:12 AM
Makes sense- O-ring on the pushrod stopped the transfer/flow, and having the inner vented to atmosphere keeps the primary from pressurizing, and the primary gasket from seeping.
Agree. It's the only real fix and was discussed way back. For all those waiting for MoCo to solve it, good luck with that one. Even back in the shovelhead days, that vented method was used and a seal on the pushrod.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on June 12, 2018, 01:50:29 PM
Quote from: rbabos on June 12, 2018, 10:21:54 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on June 12, 2018, 08:58:12 AM
Makes sense- O-ring on the pushrod stopped the transfer/flow, and having the inner vented to atmosphere keeps the primary from pressurizing, and the primary gasket from seeping.
Agree. It's the only real fix and was discussed way back. For ahe ll those waiting for MoCo to solve it, good luck with that one. Even back in the shovelhead days, that vented method wiven the as used and a seal on the pushrod.
Ron
The problem with the o-ring is that while the shaft size is consitant, the tunnel in the different main shafts vary. There is not a whole lot of clearance between the two and that o-ring is very thin, given the variance, keeping the o-ring in place. plus finding the right o-ring. I ordered a half dozen different sizes, never could find one that I felt would work.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on June 12, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
I'm now running the CVO 3-piece pushrod. Too early to tell yet, only a couple hundred miles. I can tell you that the actuator side piece is a much larger diameter than the stock pushrod and fills the gap, but of course not completely. If that works I'll be a happy camper. It's cheap too.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on June 12, 2018, 08:43:23 PM
One dealer told my about the CVO pushrod and they used on a couple of bikes and it seemed to work. I don't know if it stopped the transfer completely but it must have slowed it down.

   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: marksadz on June 26, 2018, 01:21:04 PM
Hi guys new to the forum, 2018 street glide anniversary model. I have the transmission transfer problem too. At 1000 mile service had the "fix" and was told it'll be fine now. Yeah righto! Just got back from a 1000 mile trip around europe and the dip stick on the transmission was bone dry, took it to my dealer where the mechanic stuck a screw driver down the hole which was at least 3 inches longer than the dip stick and said there is oil in there (there was 1mm at the end of his screwdriver). I told him thats just plain wrong it must have caused damage and he said that he's had bike that have run for 3000 miles with no trans oil and caused no damage and not to worry about it. He's a dick! I'm throwing the bike back at the dealer theres no way it hasn't caused some damage. I'm not prepared to take the risk on the transmission going tits up just after the warranty runs out. It's not fit for purpose
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on June 26, 2018, 03:10:23 PM
2018 RG built 3/18. Trans oil was fine at 500 miles. Did 600 miles in Laconia and now no oil on dipstick.
Brought it in to dealer for 1k service ( which I usually would have done myself but they said they'd honor my warranty despite exhaust, AC, s&s cam and PV if I had them perform all service on it and no other dealer saw it ) and told them there's no oil in the trans. We'll see what they say.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: moose on June 27, 2018, 04:21:30 AM
here's the real story

MOCO is waiting for all the bikes to do it 

then

THE LOGIC WILL BE      "THEY ALL DO IT IT'S NORMAL"
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on June 27, 2018, 05:41:09 PM
Mothership told my dealer to have me come back in 1K miles and see where it's at and that I shouldn't touch anything or add any fluids... :sick:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on June 28, 2018, 05:13:47 AM
Frustrating.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: moose on June 28, 2018, 07:49:35 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on June 27, 2018, 05:41:09 PM
Mothership told my dealer to have me come back in 1K miles and see where it's at and that I shouldn't touch anything or add any fluids... :sick:

so if a lot of fluid is transferring you ride 1000 miles and it runs dry do they replace everything cause its destroyed ??
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on June 28, 2018, 08:37:21 AM
Not likely. They'll probably say I caused the damage. I don't blame the dealer for that stupid idea, I blame the factory for telling them to do it!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: moose on June 28, 2018, 01:59:57 PM
get it all in writing or it does not exist
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Reddog74usa on June 28, 2018, 02:14:15 PM
 :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 28, 2018, 05:31:32 PM
 I was told the same thing my dealer told me I was the only one having this problem and not to believe what I read on the internet.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bxbutch on June 29, 2018, 03:01:03 PM
i got a instruction sheet from dealer friend For Transmission oil deflector kit  # 36300028
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on June 30, 2018, 01:07:17 PM
Quote from: hd06 on June 28, 2018, 05:31:32 PM
I was told the same thing my dealer told me I was the only one having this problem and not to believe what I read on the internet.
Giving that dealer a link to this tread might give him an attitude adjustment.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: moose on June 30, 2018, 04:16:03 PM
Quote from: bxbutch on June 29, 2018, 03:01:03 PM
i got a instruction sheet from dealer friend For Transmission oil deflector kit  # 36300028

FSG  you have a copy of that in your bag of magic tricks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on June 30, 2018, 08:16:29 PM
I do believe HD is removing some of their Instruction Sheets re this oil transfer problem.

https://i.imgur.com/i4Un2Qi.png

https://i.imgur.com/FaS22p5.png
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: moose on July 01, 2018, 02:46:49 AM
thanks   FSG
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 47FL80 on July 03, 2018, 06:58:29 PM
When I found out about this issue, I notified all of my friends and customers with the M8 motorcycles and hydraulic clutch.  Each has had the problem.  Latest is a friend who is on the road.  Stopped at a Harley dealer in Montana and was told they knew nothing about the issue.  I sent him the link and a copy of the pdf instruction sheet.  He went back and then they knew about it.  They contacted the Motor Company and started the process by building a case file, draining his fluids and starting over, giving him guidance to stop at any Harley shop along the way after he gets 1,000 miles on the fluid change, and reference his case file so they can check the amount of fluid transfer in 1,000 miles.  His bike had 32 ounces of transmission fluid 5,000 miles ago and had 20 ounces when he went in to the Harley shop to have them check it.  It seems to me a 12 ounce transfer from the transmission to the primary in 5,000 miles is significant.  He said after they changed the fluids and the correct amounts were put into the transmission and the primary, again, the bike runs better.  The extra drag on the clutch is causing problems, I believe.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on July 04, 2018, 01:28:25 AM
Here is a post from an Aussie site

"This week on Facebook, a guy from Oregon has posted a story and a couple of photos.

A local rider with a 2018 Street Glide was having huge oil loss from his gearbox, it was all pouring into the primary. The local dealership contacted H-D. They sent out a rep from Milwaukee, who rode the bike for around 130km and recorded an 8 fluid oz transfer from transmission to primary.

The rep instructed the dealership workshop to do this primary-venting modification. They drilled into the primary casing. Attached a hose fitting at the top of the primary case. Run the tube down under the bike.

Dealership: ''This will eliminate the suctioning effect that is pulling the oil from the transmission into the primary. Something similar will be incorporated in the 2019 models coming out''

We shall see. This is what it looks like. "

[attach=0]

[attach=1]

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 04, 2018, 05:20:42 AM
Given there is no way for the primary to generate vacuum, the engine must be sucking in past the sprocket shaft seal. I do not think I would want an open hose as an air inlet to the primary or the flywheel compartment. A vent on anything should let air out but not suck anything in. Just another patch to try and stop the transfer instead of fixing the design flaw.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 04, 2018, 07:27:02 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 04, 2018, 05:20:42 AM
Given there is no way for the primary to generate vacuum, the engine must be sucking in past the sprocket shaft seal. I do not think I would want an open hose as an air inlet to the primary or the flywheel compartment. A vent on anything should let air out but not suck anything in. Just another patch to try and stop the transfer instead of fixing the design flaw.
Agree and if it was a seal issue at the crank, that would be a simple fix, done long ago. Adding a vent to the primary without sealing the pushrod will not solve anything but it's one step in a two step cure. Most likely with the primary having more free air space as in not trying to vent expanded air to the trans, the leakage will increase. Far as I'm concerned the whole thing is a chit show but people keep lining up for them.

Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on July 04, 2018, 08:30:36 AM
This got me thinking about my 1980 FLT i bought from a H-D engineer in 81 . Willey G 's buddy .Willey told me it was the best FLT that came out of the plant. Lot's of 81 updates had been put on the bike.. One of the items was  a primary breather  to the inner case with a  (auto)pcv valve  on the end of the hose.. He never gave me a real good  answer as to why.
They had issues with a dry chain , mine had a 79 oil pump with a better  frt chain oiler. Did the job on the chain but always had a bit much oil which caused the dry  clutch plates to gum up. Had to pull and clean every summer. PCV may  have been there  to vent and  try and keep the fan effect of two much oil blowing on the plates.  And it was a good bike  for 17 yrs  and lots of major trips and miles. Different issue today with the M-8 but a vented pri might have some pos -effect. That for sure should have been fixed a yr ago.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on July 04, 2018, 11:26:23 AM
Like I said close to a 1000 posts back...the Harley bunch is just show'n off their engineering prowess.

At least the posts claiming it only happens to a very small percent have stopped.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rusty Steel on July 04, 2018, 11:37:37 AM
This is scary...I just thought that Harley was just trying to save some money by not filling to the top; hey, save 4-5 oz per bike @several million bikes? that is a lot of cash! Anyway, bad theory.

@ 800+ I can barely see the trans oil on dip stick. :dgust:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: les on July 05, 2018, 10:14:47 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 04, 2018, 05:20:42 AM
Given there is no way for the primary to generate vacuum, the engine must be sucking in past the sprocket shaft seal. I do not think I would want an open hose as an air inlet to the primary or the flywheel compartment. A vent on anything should let air out but not suck anything in. Just another patch to try and stop the transfer instead of fixing the design flaw.

If the open non-filtered vent tube is going to be the fix, I can see someone riding for hours on dirt/dusty roads (done some of this out west) and the tube sucking that pulverized stone into the primary area.  I don't think internal engine components and stone agree with each other too well.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rusty Steel on July 05, 2018, 10:38:01 AM
 :agree:
I'm hoping that I over reacted about my dip stick measurement. I'll assume it is 3-4 oz from the full to the add mark. Over 30 years on 4 Harley's, I have never added any gear oil to any trans before, only changed it. So, next week I'll drain, measure, replace and hope for the best.
Good luck to all involved.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on July 05, 2018, 08:00:05 PM
My "Fix" is still working. I have about twenty kits out now.

If they are adding an O-ring to the pushrod and then venting the primary this new fix that the MOCO is doing will work. I had considered that before I went with the nut and seal solution.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on July 06, 2018, 06:53:43 AM
As little faith I have in the factory, seeing that they haven't fixed this in nearly two years; I find it exceptionally difficult to believe the factory told the dealer to drill a hole in the primary and vent it to the ground.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 07:00:05 AM
Is that vent tube pushing air out, or sucking air in?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 06, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 07:00:05 AM
Is that vent tube pushing air out, or sucking air in?
Both. Exhales as the primary heats up and sucks in on cool down. Real slow motion of air movement both ways. Pretty much static once hot and once cold.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 09:22:55 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 06, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 07:00:05 AM
Is that vent tube pushing air out, or sucking air in?
Both. Exhales as the primary heats up and sucks in on cool down. Real slow motion of air movement both ways. Pretty much static once hot and once cold.
Ron

Having it suck air in without a filter would make me nervous.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 06, 2018, 01:42:56 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 09:22:55 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 06, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 07:00:05 AM
Is that vent tube pushing air out, or sucking air in?
Both. Exhales as the primary heats up and sucks in on cool down. Real slow motion of air movement both ways. Pretty much static once hot and once cold.
Ron



Having it suck air in without a filter would make me nervous.
You worry too much. Peanuts compared to metal and clutch fiber in the oil already.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on July 06, 2018, 02:04:16 PM
I would run the vent up into the frame and find some kind of filter to put on it to keep the big chunks out. A pleated fiber gas filter perhaps.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 06, 2018, 02:20:29 PM
I see a new chrome aftermarket kit coming, more junk to bolt on that at best does nothing or at worst causes more problems.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on July 06, 2018, 03:49:43 PM
    The transmission vented out to the air with no filter and no one seams excited about ed  being that way for years.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on July 06, 2018, 04:07:48 PM
Quote from: BUGLET on July 06, 2018, 03:49:43 PM
    The transmission vented out to the air with no filter and no one seams excited about ed  being that way for years.
Yea that. I don't believe it is a vacuum issue sucking oil, I think once oil gets on the push rod and inside of the tunnel there is nothing stopping it from going over to the primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: KTA600 on July 06, 2018, 08:15:49 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 09:22:55 AM
Quote from: rbabos on July 06, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 06, 2018, 07:00:05 AM
Is that vent tube pushing air out, or sucking air in?
Both. Exhales as the primary heats up and sucks in on cool down. Real slow motion of air movement both ways. Pretty much static once hot and once cold.
Ron

Having it suck air in without a filter would make me nervous.
all our vehicles do it now...we see more rear end and trans leaks in automotive stuff when vents get clogged .    Dirt track racers have been putting small gas filters on the vent hose for years or run trans ,rear and other components into a puke tank. That has a bigger filter on it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hunter14 on July 07, 2018, 06:55:43 PM
I have an 2017 Tri-Glide [M8] And every 8 hundred miles i have to go back to my dealer to have the primary oil drained  and transmission fluid's filled up . [4 times already]...The dealer tried Haleys fix kit, Some kind of plug and gasket , If anything that made it worst...My Dealer is honest with me and says he has at least 4 other M8 Doing the same, And Harley is Stone-Walling....And they the dealer hands are tied...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hunter14 on July 07, 2018, 07:15:11 PM
Just to add.....Harley tech services requested that i ride at or above 25 hundred rpm's at all times and that will stop the carry-over of the fluids .... :wtf:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on July 07, 2018, 07:40:47 PM
Quote from: Hunter14 on July 07, 2018, 07:15:11 PM
Just to add.....Harley tech services requested that i ride at or above 25 hundred rpm's at all times and that will stop the carry-over of the fluids .... :wtf:
That's bizarre, just bizarre...
I'm betting that doesn't make it better...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on July 07, 2018, 07:55:00 PM
Taking this long is silly,  the Harley bunch may have to get a real manufacturer of powertrains to lend them a hand...it appears to have moved beyond the level of grade school science fair project.

I bet if the states with lemon laws made the dealers start doling out refunds a cure would come fairly quick.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hunter14 on July 07, 2018, 08:01:30 PM
Worst, And it made more noise, Used more gas....And most of the ridding around town and adjoining towns the speed limit is 25 to 35mph...Try to drive at 25+rpm's and at 35 mph or under...

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on July 17, 2018, 05:44:31 AM
I have the same problem and NO, it's not from over filling.  The first time I saw it, the oil was below the dipstick.  Sucked 4.5 - 5 oz of primary and re-filled tranny.  For the folks that have this problem, make sure that your tranny oil is compatible with a wet clutch or your next problem will be a clutch slipping also.  I have used AMS Gear Lube  in my tranny for years.  Wet clutches don't like that kind of lube.  Now, AMS 20/50 in all 3 holes.  Told my stealer and of course, never heard of it before and they are 3 weeks out on their service.  You would think that warranty work should take president over builds.  After all, takes more money to buy one then to do a build.  These F---ing dealers talk about loyalty but what they don't tell ya is that loyalty only goes one way when you stop throwing money at them!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 18, 2018, 04:57:10 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on July 07, 2018, 07:55:00 PM
Taking this long is silly,  the Harley bunch may have to get a real manufacturer of powertrains to lend them a hand...it appears to have moved beyond the level of grade school science fair project.

I bet if the states with lemon laws made the dealers start doling out refunds a cure would come fairly quick.
They need to dig Wolfgang out of retirement and kick some ass.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on July 23, 2018, 07:17:38 AM
I have been following this thread for a good while.  I have a 2017 Limited that I picked up a year ago last April. I now have 17,000 miles on it. Last oil change at 15,000 miles I carefully measured the primary and transmission oil. I had 10 oz of oil migrate. I photographed the volume of oil and took the photos to my dealer. We have been talking about the issue over the last year and they wanted full documentation which I provided them.  They scheduled my bike for the installation of Transmission oil deflector kit. They called me to inform me that Harley Davidson now requires full documentation of how much oil transferred, Bikes VIN # and some other information before they would send the deflector kit.   I have no problem with the company collecting data. Just hope they come through and I get the problem resolved before head to Alaska in a couple years.

This is after 5,300 miles.

Primary Oil
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1849_zpsgv2quy2l.jpg (http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1849_zpsgv2quy2l.jpg)
Transmission Oil
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1851_zpsmvizokhr.jpg (http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1851_zpsmvizokhr.jpg)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on July 23, 2018, 07:26:36 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on July 23, 2018, 07:17:38 AM
I have been following this thread for a good while.  I have a 2017 Limited that I picked up a year ago last April. I now have 17,000 miles on it. Last oil change at 15,000 miles I carefully measured the primary and transmission oil. I had 10 oz of oil migrate. I photographed the volume of oil and took the photos to my dealer. We have been talking about the issue over the last year and they wanted full documentation which I provided them.  They scheduled my bike for the installation of Transmission oil deflector kit. They called me to inform me that Harley Davidson now requires full documentation of how much oil transferred, Bikes VIN # and some other information before they would send the deflector kit.   I have no problem with the company collecting data. Just hope they come through and I get the problem resolved before head to Alaska in a couple years.

This is after 5,300 miles.

Primary Oil
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1849_zpsgv2quy2l.jpg (http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1849_zpsgv2quy2l.jpg)
Transmission Oil
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1851_zpsmvizokhr.jpg (http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1851_zpsmvizokhr.jpg)

Great , You are on top of this game for sure. :up: Hope they don't come up with some BS  this all had to be done at  your dealer.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on July 23, 2018, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on July 23, 2018, 07:26:36 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on July 23, 2018, 07:17:38 AM
I have been following this thread for a good while.  I have a 2017 Limited that I picked up a year ago last April. I now have 17,000 miles on it. Last oil change at 15,000 miles I carefully measured the primary and transmission oil. I had 10 oz of oil migrate. I photographed the volume of oil and took the photos to my dealer. We have been talking about the issue over the last year and they wanted full documentation which I provided them.  They scheduled my bike for the installation of Transmission oil deflector kit. They called me to inform me that Harley Davidson now requires full documentation of how much oil transferred, Bikes VIN # and some other information before they would send the deflector kit.   I have no problem with the company collecting data. Just hope they come through and I get the problem resolved before head to Alaska in a couple years.

This is after 5,300 miles.

Primary Oil
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1849_zpsgv2quy2l.jpg (http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1849_zpsgv2quy2l.jpg)
Transmission Oil
http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1851_zpsmvizokhr.jpg (http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm328/50Panhead/DSCF1851_zpsmvizokhr.jpg)

Great , You are on top of this game for sure. :up: Hope they don't come up with some BS  this all had to be done at  your dealer.

Guys in the Shop (Dealers Shop) say they do not check volume when they change fluids. They just dump and refill it.   Yes I hope they Motor Company does not want it all done in the Dealers Shop. If that is the case very little will happen.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hunter14 on July 23, 2018, 12:28:03 PM
After the third time  my dealer installed the kit, made it worst.....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on July 23, 2018, 12:42:34 PM
I've said it before, I would be so PO'd if that was happening to me. I honestly don't know how I would handle it. I'm pretty sure the owner of the dealership and I would have a nice talk about options going forward.
Has anybody with multiple repeat visits and fixes talked with a state's attorney general to file a complaint and try to get it resolved? At the very least, I would want a full refund, lemon law style, whether it was applicable to motorcycles or not.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Reddog74usa on July 23, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
I agree with ya Hoss. It's almost like their trying to make the MOCO fail. I took a 114 fatbob out for a test ride and really liked it. Bike did everything it was supposed to do and did it very well but I REFUSE to pay good money for a design that has so many flaws and the MOCO stonewalling or flat out refusing to make it right.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 23, 2018, 03:34:20 PM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on July 23, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
I agree with ya Hoss. It's almost like their trying to make the MOCO fail. I took a 114 fatbob out for a test ride and really liked it. Bike did everything it was supposed to do and did it very well but I REFUSE to pay good money for a design that has so many flaws and the MOCO stonewalling or flat out refusing to make it right.
I think that bugs me the most out of the whole deal . Sure issues come up but how they are dealt with is important. I give them a big fail in that regard and makes me stay clear of them.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on July 23, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on July 23, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
I agree with ya Hoss. It's almost like their trying to make the MOCO fail. I took a 114 fatbob out for a test ride and really liked it. Bike did everything it was supposed to do and did it very well but I REFUSE to pay good money for a design that has so many flaws and the MOCO stonewalling or flat out refusing to make it right.

Thinking  the  same  the other day, if there is only say a few with this issues , jump on it , fix the issue . if a design problem  recall, fix the damn thing and move on . why the policy of piss the customers off , with all the time and money  it cost the dealers and H-D itself . If this was a issue with Indian and they pulled this "Potty mouth" , it would be more than Victory riding off into the sunset for sure.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SixShooter14 on July 24, 2018, 12:52:05 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on July 23, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on July 23, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
I agree with ya Hoss. It's almost like their trying to make the MOCO fail. I took a 114 fatbob out for a test ride and really liked it. Bike did everything it was supposed to do and did it very well but I REFUSE to pay good money for a design that has so many flaws and the MOCO stonewalling or flat out refusing to make it right.

Thinking  the  same  the other day, if there is only say a few with this issues , jump on it , fix the issue . if a design problem  recall, fix the damn thing and move on . why the policy of piss the customers off , with all the time and money  it cost the dealers and H-D itself . If this was a issue with Indian and they pulled this "Potty mouth" , it would be more than Victory riding off into the sunset for sure.
Maybe HD thinks they are "too big to fail"  :doh:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on July 24, 2018, 01:06:19 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on July 24, 2018, 12:52:05 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on July 23, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on July 23, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
I agree with ya Hoss. It's almost like their trying to make the MOCO fail. I took a 114 fatbob out for a test ride and really liked it. Bike did everything it was supposed to do and did it very well but I REFUSE to pay good money for a design that has so many flaws and the MOCO stonewalling or flat out refusing to make it right.

Thinking  the  same  the other day, if there is only say a few with this issues , jump on it , fix the issue . if a design problem  recall, fix the damn thing and move on . why the policy of piss the customers off , with all the time and money  it cost the dealers and H-D itself . If this was a issue with Indian and they pulled this "Potty mouth" , it would be more than Victory riding off into the sunset for sure.
Maybe HD thinks they are "too big to fail"  :doh:
:hyst: maybe they should see what's going on in the retail world.... Sears & Roebuck come to mind...  :soda:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on July 24, 2018, 04:18:05 PM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on July 24, 2018, 01:06:19 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on July 24, 2018, 12:52:05 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on July 23, 2018, 07:37:46 PM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on July 23, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
I agree with ya Hoss. It's almost like their trying to make the MOCO fail. I took a 114 fatbob out for a test ride and really liked it. Bike did everything it was supposed to do and did it very well but I REFUSE to pay good money for a design that has so many flaws and the MOCO stonewalling or flat out refusing to make it right.

Thinking  the  same  the other day, if there is only say a few with this issues , jump on it , fix the issue . if a design problem  recall, fix the damn thing and move on . why the policy of piss the customers off , with all the time and money  it cost the dealers and H-D itself . If this was a issue with Indian and they pulled this "Potty mouth" , it would be more than Victory riding off into the sunset for sure.
Maybe HD thinks they are "too big to fail"  :doh:
:hyst: maybe they should see what's going on in the retail world.... Sears & Roebuck come to mind...  :soda:


what number  comes to mind when the word few  enters the topic?  always thought it was  in the area of 7 or eight not thousands upon thousands.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on July 24, 2018, 05:50:29 PM
Take a look at HD stock over the last 5 yrs vs. Polaris stock over the last 5 yrs. Knowing that, the idea that they continue to knowingly produce an inferior poorly designed product boggles the mind. It wasn't THAT long ago that HD was on the verge of folding yet here they are whistling past the graveyard. If the upper management was worth a damn they would be demanding results and this mess would never have happened, never mind drag on for two years....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on July 24, 2018, 06:03:28 PM
Quote from: Nastytls on July 24, 2018, 05:50:29 PM
Take a look at HD stock over the last 5 yrs vs. Polaris stock over the last 5 yrs. Knowing that, the idea that they continue to knowingly produce an inferior poorly designed product boggles the mind. It wasn't THAT long ago that HD was on the verge of folding yet here they are whistling past the graveyard. If the upper management was worth a damn they would be demanding results and this mess would never have happened, never mind drag on for two years....

it is a sad state of affairs to be sure.  it hard to imagine the  people at the top knowing there are very serious issues with the  HD yet it seems as if they think it will just go away .  it will not. when people get a few miles on more of these bikes with the wonderful m8 motors and they are out of warranty  and people are make huge payments on them and the bike sits  people will continue  to be on forums unhappy with the  product   it will only steer people away from the industry or just maybe the  HD .
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on July 25, 2018, 03:52:09 AM

Well the 19 models will all come with the Primary vented from what I heard so the Mothership feels this is the fix. They sent 2 engineers from Milwaukee to Smith Brothers to fix a guy I knows bike, they installed the vent in the upper most corner towards the rear of the primary and guaranteed it to fix the issue. Of course everytime they filled his trans they used 20w/50 SE oil which I feel is too thin for a trans but hopefully it will help his CVO. Supposedly he got a call from the Vice President of HD which is a Woman I heard, she said they will get his bike fixed and then she flew the engineers down to Tn. to do the fix.
Now before you go and shoot down my story, just remember I mentioned a long time ago about adding the slingers for the fix but I then was treated like a mangy dog but they tired the slingers and it helped some but didn't stop all the transfer. So all the 2019's will have the vent in them and they also said that if any 2017 or 18 models show the transfer they will fix them with the vent whether they are out of warranty or not.
I also found out that Cool Springs HD in Nashville Tn. has been putting the vent in for a month or so on their own anyways so they thought that was the fix also. They came up with there own venting system.
Just passing this along so don't shoot the messenger.... LOL.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 04 SE Deuce on July 25, 2018, 05:08:53 AM
Did I forget something given how long a fix for this has taken?  I thought a primary vent was one of the first steps/tests to diagnose the cause of this issue.  Wwwhhhheeeeooowwwww!!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ekb55 on July 25, 2018, 05:34:00 AM
I would like to see a photo of the fix they performed on the bike along with a work order.  I believe a lot of us would find that helpful when dealing with this issue when our own dealership. Please reach out to "the guy you know" and see if you can make this happen.

Thanks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on July 25, 2018, 05:52:22 AM
Quote from: ekb55 on July 25, 2018, 05:34:00 AM
I would like to see a photo of the fix they performed on the bike along with a work order.  I believe a lot of us would find that helpful when dealing with this issue when our own dealership. Please reach out to "the guy you know" and see if you can make this happen.

Thanks
I'll see if we could get a picture of this but no promises.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Heatwave3 on July 25, 2018, 10:49:20 AM
Quote from: 04 SE DEUCE on July 25, 2018, 05:08:53 AM
Did I forget something given how long a fix for this has taken?  I thought a primary vent was one of the first steps/tests to diagnose the cause of this issue.  Wwwhhhheeeeooowwwww!!!

Here's some pics of the primary venting .... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10216655351759385&set=pcb.902665713269547&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10216655351759385&set=pcb.902665713269547&type=3&theater&ifg=1)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on July 25, 2018, 01:52:57 PM
Whistling past the graveyard.... FIX the problems!

http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-announce-2018-q2-earnings.html (http://www.motorcycle.com/mini-features/harley-davidson-announce-2018-q2-earnings.html)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 25, 2018, 02:37:38 PM
Vent won't help a damn thing unless the pushrod has some from of seal on it. There has to be more to it then just the vent to work.  Not rocket science.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 25, 2018, 04:13:39 PM
If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 25, 2018, 05:34:59 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 25, 2018, 04:13:39 PM
If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?
Don't think it's sucking in as most of the time it's static air but rather the fluid gets raised above the pushrod hole and gravity does it's job. No doubt helped with the dam effect of the slave opposite the main shaft hole
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on July 25, 2018, 05:40:03 PM
Quote from: rbabos on July 25, 2018, 05:34:59 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 25, 2018, 04:13:39 PM
If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?
Don't think it's sucking in as most of the time it's static air but rather the fluid gets raised above the pushrod hole and gravity does it's job. No doubt helped with the dam effect of the slave opposite the main shaft hole
Ron

Ron I agree with you from what I have seen in the design but if this primary vent tube is helping them at all it would indicate that in some cases they have some vacuum in the primary from somewhere.

Added
If the primary is sealed except for the main shaft passage, any air expansion from heat would travel from the primary to the trans slowing the oil flow so venting the primary would relieve the pressure and increase the flow.

"If" there is vacuum in the primary helping the oil in the shaft to flow into the trans then venting the primary would decrease the flow to what ever gravity can pull thereby decreasing the flow.

Either way it does not address the problem of oil being in the shaft to begin with.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 26, 2018, 05:20:10 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 25, 2018, 05:40:03 PM
Quote from: rbabos on July 25, 2018, 05:34:59 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on July 25, 2018, 04:13:39 PM
If this band-aid slows the transfer enough to quiet people down they will never find and fix the actual problem.

I know the oil is packing in the transmission's hydraulic clutch cover because if it was not the only thing sucking through the trans shaft would be air. The next question is why, after all these years of the primary venting heat expansion air pressure out to the transmission, is the primary suddenly sucking in?
Don't think it's sucking in as most of the time it's static air but rather the fluid gets raised above the pushrod hole and gravity does it's job. No doubt helped with the dam effect of the slave opposite the main shaft hole
Ron

Ron I agree with you from what I have seen in the design but if this primary vent tube is helping them at all it would indicate that in some cases they have some vacuum in the primary from somewhere.

Added
If the primary is sealed except for the main shaft passage, any air expansion from heat would travel from the primary to the trans slowing the oil flow so venting the primary would relieve the pressure and increase the flow.

"If" there is vacuum in the primary helping the oil in the shaft to flow into the trans then venting the primary would decrease the flow to what ever gravity can pull thereby decreasing the flow.

Either way it does not address the problem of oil being in the shaft to begin with.
First thing I thought of too during the primary heat up stages. Not sure how much effect but the vent will not stop the source or real cause of the problem. If there is vacuum in the primary, which I doubt, then it would but again, not fixed the real problem. HD must have a big selection of band aids. Thing is band aids are suppose to work, right? I can't see this being nothing more then a customer pacifier to temporarily shut them up and run out of warranty.

Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on July 26, 2018, 05:47:38 AM
Is there any way the newer M8 transmission case could be exposed to crankcase pressure at the engine interface mounting?  As we know, some engines do have a more lasting crankcase pressure if not broken in properly.  This could account for the fact that not all engines seem to be effected.  The fact it only seems to be involved with the hydraulic clutch models also indicates some sort of connection to those model of castings and can or should not be dismissed.   To qualify my question I will say I have not seen the casting or any porting that may be at the sealing surface or gasket.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on July 26, 2018, 06:27:38 AM
For one, I do not know "Who is Who" and what they know here in all this discussion.
In other words  I do not know who Knows and who don't.
Who of you work  at dealerships  or Independent shops. Who are Engineers and who are 6 pack Joe's

Me.. I have a BS ( That's Bachelor of Science )  in Math and Physics and work as a Maintenance Supervisor / Chief Engineer for a small University.  I work on bikes as a side line after hours. I have been doing this for a long time. Two more years till retirement.

You can end the debate about pressures by attaching a digital recording Pressure/vacuum gauge to the newly vented Primary. Ride the bike for a few hours and analyze the data. Wish I had one but I don't.

At this point in time I'm going to wait until I see what HD does with the 2019. they will be out soon enough. Until them I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on July 26, 2018, 06:48:25 AM
I'm waiting for the new models to come out with "improved venting for the transmission and primary that will retrofit to earlier M8's.", with no mention of earlier issues.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on July 26, 2018, 07:23:09 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on July 26, 2018, 06:27:38 AM
For one, I do not know "Who is Who" and what they know here in all this discussion.
In other words  I do not know who Knows and who don't.
Who of you work  at dealerships  or Independent shops. Who are Engineers and who are 6 pack Joe's

Me.. I have a BS ( That's Bachelor of Science )  in Math and Physics and work as a Maintenance Supervisor / Chief Engineer for a small University.  I work on bikes as a side line after hours. I have been doing this for a long time. Two more years till retirement.

You can end the debate about pressures by attaching a digital recording Pressure/vacuum gauge to the newly vented Primary. Ride the bike for a few hours and analyze the data. Wish I had one but I don't.

At this point in time I'm going to wait until I see what HD does with the 2019. they will be out soon enough. Until them I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

  :agree:  Your thinking is on the right track.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on July 26, 2018, 12:20:26 PM
Quote from: 50Panhead on July 26, 2018, 06:27:38 AM
For one, I do not know "Who is Who" and what they know here in all this discussion.
In other words  I do not know who Knows and who don't.
Who of you work  at dealerships  or Independent shops. Who are Engineers and who are 6 pack Joe's

Me.. I have a BS ( That's Bachelor of Science )  in Math and Physics and work as a Maintenance Supervisor / Chief Engineer for a small University.  I work on bikes as a side line after hours. I have been doing this for a long time. Two more years till retirement.

You can end the debate about pressures by attaching a digital recording Pressure/vacuum gauge to the newly vented Primary. Ride the bike for a few hours and analyze the data. Wish I had one but I don't.

At this point in time I'm going to wait until I see what HD does with the 2019. they will be out soon enough. Until them I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
I discussed this like 4000 posts ago ,or at least seems that way, yet nobody I've heard of has done it. Well look at the bright side. If the vent line is incorporated, no damn excuse what's so ever to not be able to hook up a gauge. Unless the main seal is totally fkd up, you won't see much. It is after all a very simple area to seal. Another one of HD almighty attempts at fixing the problem. No real testing but let's change that seal and spacer to shut the customer up for a while and make it look like we are at least trying.  :hyst: Sure there could have been the odd one, but again it's not the real fix. Also from what I gather is the hole in the shaft varies all over the place making as seal install hit and miss on the pushrod for the real for true fix, with venting of course. Like you, I'm really curious what the 19s will bring. Probably better shaft hole QC with a seal, and no doubt will boast about it in the literature as the greatest thing since sliced bread. Retrofit with the bores all over the place on 17s and 18s, not likely happening. That would be a shame for the owners.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on July 27, 2018, 12:31:21 PM
I once suggested putting a vacuum/pressure gauge on the transmission vent. There was some talk and discussion about ballons and whatever. If there's a trend for flow through that rubber elbow it may be interesting to note.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 05, 2018, 10:48:40 AM
Quote from: metaliser on July 25, 2018, 03:52:09 AM

Well the 19 models will all come with the Primary vented from what I heard so the Mothership feels this is the fix. They sent 2 engineers from Milwaukee to Smith Brothers to fix a guy I knows bike, they installed the vent in the upper most corner towards the rear of the primary and guaranteed it to fix the issue. Of course everytime they filled his trans they used 20w/50 SE oil which I feel is too thin for a trans but hopefully it will help his CVO. Supposedly he got a call from the Vice President of HD which is a Woman I heard, she said they will get his bike fixed and then she flew the engineers down to Tn. to do the fix.
Now before you go and shoot down my story, just remember I mentioned a long time ago about adding the slingers for the fix but I then was treated like a mangy dog but they tired the slingers and it helped some but didn't stop all the transfer. So all the 2019's will have the vent in them and they also said that if any 2017 or 18 models show the transfer they will fix them with the vent whether they are out of warranty or not.
I also found out that Cool Springs HD in Nashville Tn. has been putting the vent in for a month or so on their own anyways so they thought that was the fix also. They came up with there own venting system.
Just passing this along so don't shoot the messenger.... LOL.

I have had a couple people using my transfer fix, which is a seal between the transmission and the primary located in the side cover that holds the clutch actuator, try venting by drilling a 1/16" hole in the steel part of the seal at the top. In both instances the transfer continued to happen. That means the transmission is pushing fluid against the seal to get it to the height of the hole in the seal, possibly with enough force to push oil through the vent hole. It is possible that the primary also is exerting a vacuum, but unless the transmission was pushing oil against the seal there wouldn't have been transfer. So basically, unless there's some sort of seal between the transmission and primary transfer is still possible with the primary vented.
Title: Baker Claims they Solved the Fluid Migration Issue with the M8
Post by: hdrider on August 06, 2018, 05:14:53 PM
I'm here at the Sturgis Rally and just talked to a Baker Drive Train Rep at their vendor display at Blackhills Harley in Rapid City.  The Rep "Buddy Don" said that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover solves the problem.  Buddy says that the stock M8 Hydraulic Cover uses a 1 inch piston that is close to the same size as a nut opposite the piston (around the clutch rod) and that fluid gets trapped between the piston and nut and is forced around the clutch rod.  The Baker Hydraulic Side Cover uses a 1.5 inch piston (significantly larger than the nut) and therefore doesn't trap fluid between the piston and nut.  Baker has now seen enough instances of M8 bikes with fluid migration problems being fixed with the installation of the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover that they are now convinced this is a solution.
I would greatly appreciate it if someone with this problem would independently confirm that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover is indeed a fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Reddog74usa on August 06, 2018, 06:28:33 PM
 :beer: :up:
Title: Re: Baker Claims they Solved the Fluid Migration Issue with the M8
Post by: hogpipes1 on August 06, 2018, 07:14:29 PM
Quote from: hdrider on August 06, 2018, 05:14:53 PM
I'm here at the Sturgis Rally and just talked to a Baker Drive Train Rep at their vendor display at Blackhills Harley in Rapid City.  The Rep "Buddy Don" said that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover solves the problem.  Buddy says that the stock M8 Hydraulic Cover uses a 1 inch piston that is close to the same size as a nut opposite the piston (around the clutch rod) and that fluid gets trapped between the piston and nut and is forced around the clutch rod.  The Baker Hydraulic Side Cover uses a 1.5 inch piston (significantly larger than the nut) and therefore doesn't trap fluid between the piston and nut.  Baker has now seen enough instances of M8 bikes with fluid migration problems being fixed with the installation of the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover that they are now convinced this is a solution.
I would greatly appreciate it if someone with this problem would independently confirm that the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover is indeed a fix.

I figured H-D would wait for someone eles to fix there problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on August 06, 2018, 10:01:19 PM
    Yes then they will copy it. Or should I say there own version and call it a Screamin Eagle performance part.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 07, 2018, 04:39:24 AM
I am trying to grasp the piston size difference. If the OEM is 1" and the baker 1 1/2" It will take a longer stroke on the clutch lever to move the push rod the same amount, or more fluid, over two times as much.

Something doesn't add up.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 07, 2018, 06:28:20 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 07, 2018, 04:39:24 AM
I am trying to grasp the piston size difference. If the OEM is 1" and the baker 1 1/2" It will take a longer stroke on the clutch lever to move the push rod the same amount, or more fluid, over two times as much.

Something doesn't add up.
Based on the explanation, doesn't add up to me either. Maybe it's flanged to 1.5 outboard but keeps the stock piston bore but I can't see how that would stop migration.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on August 07, 2018, 05:31:57 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 07, 2018, 06:28:20 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 07, 2018, 04:39:24 AM
I am trying to grasp the piston size difference. If the OEM is 1" and the baker 1 1/2" It will take a longer stroke on the clutch lever to move the push rod the same amount, or more fluid, over two times as much.

Something doesn't add up.
Based on the explanation, doesn't add up to me either. Maybe it's flanged to 1.5 outboard but keeps the stock piston bore but I can't see how that would stop migration.
Ron

This is what's printed on the Baker website about the Hydraulic Side Cover:

Taking design cues from our ever increasing product family known as Function Formed, we have wrapped the outer design around the functional components found inside. No garnish, or decorations, just the meat and potatoes to make this side cover look as good as it functions.

Features

FF aesthetics milled out of 6061-T6 with chrome finish.
Low profile external features for maximum exhaust clearance.
12 Point stainless steel ARP bolts and gasket included.
1.5″ diameter piston included.
Compatible with H-D or 11/16″ hydraulic master cylinders.
Fitment: BAKER DD7, BAKER GrudgeBox, Stock 6-Speed

PN DD7-106C-Kit (For Chrome)

PN DD7-106B-Kit (For Hog Black)

Screaming Eagle bikes must retrofit to the cable style center push rod system; 3pc system.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on August 07, 2018, 05:50:38 PM
When I talked to Baker we didn't get into the inherent mechanical advantage differences of the 1.5 inch vs 1 inch piston.  Maybe someone could check if the Harley stock piston is actually 1 inch -- the Baker website info simply says its compatible with the stock H-D or 11/16 Master Cylinder.  What the Baker guy was trying to explain was that the stock HD piston was so close in size to the opposing nut size, that tranny fluid had a hard time getting squished out of the gap between the piston and nut, but with the larger bore Baker piston the fluid could escape around the sides of the nut.
I'm just the messenger on this -- the Baker guy seemed to be a true believer in this solution.  I think somebody with the issue needs to try this and report back if it's really a cure or not.
I've been holding off buying an M8 just because of this problem. so I don't have an M8 to experiment on, otherwise I'd gladly do it myself.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: CarlosGGodfrog on August 07, 2018, 06:43:26 PM
I have a 2000 Heritage Springer that I converted to hydraulic clutch using H-D side cover a few years ago (4). I had to replace the piston because of a bad o-ring on the piston. I just measured it -> 1.595 inches, and I have never had a fluid transfer problem.
Do the TC 5-speed and 6-speeds (TC and M8) use the same bolt pattern on the side cover ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 07, 2018, 07:16:06 PM
Quote from: hdrider on August 07, 2018, 05:31:57 PM

This is what's printed on the Baker website about the Hydraulic Side Cover:

Taking design cues from our ever increasing product family known as Function Formed, we have wrapped the outer design around the functional components found inside. No garnish, or decorations, just the meat and potatoes to make this side cover look as good as it functions.

Features

FF aesthetics milled out of 6061-T6 with chrome finish.
Low profile external features for maximum exhaust clearance.
12 Point stainless steel ARP bolts and gasket included.
1.5″ diameter piston included.
Compatible with H-D or 11/16″ hydraulic master cylinders.
Fitment: BAKER DD7, BAKER GrudgeBox, Stock 6-Speed

PN DD7-106C-Kit (For Chrome)

PN DD7-106B-Kit (For Hog Black)

Screaming Eagle bikes must retrofit to the cable style center push rod system; 3pc system.

Sure, but what is the stock diameter? :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on August 09, 2018, 07:37:57 AM
Quote from: hdrider on August 07, 2018, 05:50:38 PM
When I talked to Baker we didn't get into the inherent mechanical advantage differences of the 1.5 inch vs 1 inch piston.  Maybe someone could check if the Harley stock piston is actually 1 inch -- the Baker website info simply says its compatible with the stock H-D or 11/16 Master Cylinder.  What the Baker guy was trying to explain was that the stock HD piston was so close in size to the opposing nut size, that tranny fluid had a hard time getting squished out of the gap between the piston and nut, but with the larger bore Baker piston the fluid could escape around the sides of the nut.
I'm just the messenger on this -- the Baker guy seemed to be a true believer in this solution.  I think somebody with the issue needs to try this and report back if it's really a cure or not.
I've been holding off buying an M8 just because of this problem. so I don't have an M8 to experiment on, otherwise I'd gladly do it myself.
I have a guy bringing his M8 over to my shop this weekend and I'm going to try and install one of our covers. I let you know how it works.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 09, 2018, 07:48:39 AM
Quote from: Mark P on August 09, 2018, 07:37:57 AM
Quote from: hdrider on August 07, 2018, 05:50:38 PM
When I talked to Baker we didn't get into the inherent mechanical advantage differences of the 1.5 inch vs 1 inch piston.  Maybe someone could check if the Harley stock piston is actually 1 inch -- the Baker website info simply says its compatible with the stock H-D or 11/16 Master Cylinder.  What the Baker guy was trying to explain was that the stock HD piston was so close in size to the opposing nut size, that tranny fluid had a hard time getting squished out of the gap between the piston and nut, but with the larger bore Baker piston the fluid could escape around the sides of the nut.
I'm just the messenger on this -- the Baker guy seemed to be a true believer in this solution.  I think somebody with the issue needs to try this and report back if it's really a cure or not.
I've been holding off buying an M8 just because of this problem. so I don't have an M8 to experiment on, otherwise I'd gladly do it myself.
I have a guy bringing his M8 over to my shop this weekend and I'm going to try and install one of our covers. I let you know how it works.
I would hope it already works or why would you be selling it? A technical explanation of how it works would suffice. Not like anything can be kept a secret for long.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on August 09, 2018, 08:15:06 AM
I just got off the phone with Baker and they told me that they don't have a tranny cover that will fit the M8.  I asked them what they thought was causing the issue with oil transfer.  They stated that Harley has made the tranny cover narrower and that it doesn't leave enough room for the oil at that end of the tranny and every time you shift it lets a little oil run over into the primary through the output shaft.  Also Baker doesn't think venting the primary case would help because venting isn't the issue in their opinion.  My bike is ready for pick up at the dealer for a 5 thousand mile oil monitoring.  We all know what that outcome will be, yep you are getting oil transfer.  The problem with that for me is that if a person was trying to give the bike back to Harley under the lemon law you would have to do this 3 to 4 times in one year to qualify for the lemon law. [ if your state has one ] Think about it, that would be 15 to 20 thousand miles in monitoring in one year, plus bet ya HD will only be willing to do the monitoring once.  Just like Harley not to fix the problem but call it normal.   Now for the crying....I have been riding Harleys for 53 years and every NEW HD I bought had issues that they would not address.  If they don't change the tolerances [ think crank runout to leak down test ] they call it normal.  Baker feels that the only fix would be a different tranny cover or maybe some machine work on the original cover. [ needs to be tested ] Never had this issue till the cover got re-design for the 17 - 18 M8's.  I don't think that Harley is going to hand out that many new, re-designed covers to fix the problem but I bet they will be on all the 2019's. Harley hopes that most people just puts gas in it and ride it to the dealer for oil changes.  I'm almost done with HD's problems and lack of fixes and their complacency with some issues.  My new name will be TRADER on a new Wing if this doesn't get fixed. Say what you want, I'm not a poser wearing a Harley shirt. The shirts will go with the bike.  I just want to ride without issues.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 10:31:51 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 09, 2018, 08:15:06 AM
I just got off the phone with Baker and they told me that they don't have a tranny cover that will fit the M8.  I asked them what they thought was causing the issue with oil transfer.  They stated that Harley has made the tranny cover narrower and that it doesn't leave enough room for the oil at that end of the tranny and every time you shift it lets a little oil run over into the primary through the output shaft.  Also Baker doesn't think venting the primary case would help because venting isn't the issue in their opinion.  My bike is ready for pick up at the dealer for a 5 thousand mile oil monitoring.  We all know what that outcome will be, yep you are getting oil transfer.  The problem with that for me is that if a person was trying to give the bike back to Harley under the lemon law you would have to do this 3 to 4 times in one year to qualify for the lemon law. [ if your state has one ] Think about it, that would be 15 to 20 thousand miles in monitoring in one year, plus bet ya HD will only be willing to do the monitoring once.  Just like Harley not to fix the problem but call it normal.   Now for the crying....I have been riding Harleys for 53 years and every NEW HD I bought had issues that they would not address.  If they don't change the tolerances [ think crank runout to leak down test ] they call it normal.  Baker feels that the only fix would be a different tranny cover or maybe some machine work on the original cover. [ needs to be tested ] Never had this issue till the cover got re-design for the 17 - 18 M8's.  I don't think that Harley is going to hand out that many new, re-designed covers to fix the problem but I bet they will be on all the 2019's. Harley hopes that most people just puts gas in it and ride it to the dealer for oil changes.  I'm almost done with HD's problems and lack of fixes and their complacency with some issues.  My new name will be TRADER on a new Wing if this doesn't get fixed. Say what you want, I'm not a poser wearing a Harley shirt. The shirts will go with the bike.  I just want to ride without issues.

Don't get to exited,
The wings have their issues as well with ghost shifting, blown transmissions, bad pulse generators stranding you in the middle of nowhere and oh yeah very very limited accessories to chose from.
I also own an F6B and while the GL1800 engine is awesome it sure as hell isn't trouble free.
Plus I am not convinced this so called oil transfer issue is a problem at all because the only place I ever here about it is right here.
Cheers
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 09, 2018, 01:01:32 PM
Only here? You must not read the other Harley forums. They all are talking about it!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hunter14 on August 09, 2018, 02:21:01 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 09, 2018, 01:01:32 PM
Only here? You must not read the other Harley forums. They all are talking about it!

Yep.....Its on every forum , And most dealers will not tell you that they have at least 3 or 4 M8's with the trans to primary transfer at their dealership.....And I'm willing to bet quite a few owners who don't  ride more than a thousand miles or so in a year even know their M8's have that problem ......
Till the warranty is up....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on August 09, 2018, 03:20:57 PM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 10:31:51 AM
Plus I am not convinced this so called oil transfer issue is a problem at all because the only place I ever here about it is right here.
Cheers

I guess the fact that HD put out Tech Article "Tech Article TA0022: Transmission to Primary Oil Transfer" means nothing because you haven't experienced the problem.  HD is not very forthcoming when admitting problems with their bikes so I have to believe that for HD to issue a Tech Article, the problem does exist and it exists on more than just a handful of bikes.  Keep living in denial
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on August 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: Jobie on August 09, 2018, 08:15:06 AM
I just got off the phone with Baker and they told me that they don't have a tranny cover that will fit the M8.  I asked them what they thought was causing the issue with oil transfer.  They stated that Harley has made the tranny cover narrower and that it doesn't leave enough room for the oil at that end of the tranny and every time you shift it lets a little oil run over into the primary through the output shaft.  Also Baker doesn't think venting the primary case would help because venting isn't the issue in their opinion.  My bike is ready for pick up at the dealer for a 5 thousand mile oil monitoring.  We all know what that outcome will be, yep you are getting oil transfer.  The problem with that for me is that if a person was trying to give the bike back to Harley under the lemon law you would have to do this 3 to 4 times in one year to qualify for the lemon law. [ if your state has one ] Think about it, that would be 15 to 20 thousand miles in monitoring in one year, plus bet ya HD will only be willing to do the monitoring once.  Just like Harley not to fix the problem but call it normal.   Now for the crying....I have been riding Harleys for 53 years and every NEW HD I bought had issues that they would not address.  If they don't change the tolerances [ think crank runout to leak down test ] they call it normal.  Baker feels that the only fix would be a different tranny cover or maybe some machine work on the original cover. [ needs to be tested ] Never had this issue till the cover got re-design for the 17 - 18 M8's.  I don't think that Harley is going to hand out that many new, re-designed covers to fix the problem but I bet they will be on all the 2019's. Harley hopes that most people just puts gas in it and ride it to the dealer for oil changes.  I'm almost done with HD's problems and lack of fixes and their complacency with some issues.  My new name will be TRADER on a new Wing if this doesn't get fixed. Say what you want, I'm not a poser wearing a Harley shirt. The shirts will go with the bike.  I just want to ride without issues.

After all the comments after my original post about the Baker fix for the fluid transfer, I went back to the Baker Vendor Display at Black Hills Harley in Rapid City and had a detailed discussion with 2 additional Baker Technicians and I believe I've finally gotten some answers.  Apparently the original technician I had talked to wasn't as clear in his explanation or he may have left some details out.

What I found out today is:

1. Baker firmly believes that their Hydraulic Side Cover design solves the M8 fluid transfer problem

2. The M8 Hydraulic Side Cover is in Production, but not available to order yet.  The covers are in final machining and still need to be chromed.  Expect them to be available to order in about a month.

3. The specs on the Baker website for the 06-17 Hydraulic Cover are for the Twin Cam Cover -- not the M8.

4.  The Piston size in the Stock H-D M8 and new M8 Baker Hydraulic Cover are the same size and slightly smaller than on the Twin Cam (don't know why H-D reduced the piston size for the M8).

5.  The big difference between the H-D cover and the Baker cover is that the H-D cover has a piston stop as part of the casting.  The stop limits the piston travel so it can't be pushed out of the bore, however this stop extends beyond the piston and literally surrounds the nut on the tranny door -- this creates a pocket that limits the movement of tranny fluid which gets pressurized and pushed past the clutch rod every time the clutch is actuated.  The Baker design doesn't have a piston stop --  the piston could theoretically be pushed out of the bore, but in reality is limited by the clutch rod travel, and finally it would hit the tranny nut before leaving the bore.  In other words the Baker design leaves the Tranny nut completely unshrouded.  At least thats the way it was explained to me by the latest Baker Technician and a bit different than my original understanding (and posting).
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on August 09, 2018, 03:39:46 PM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 10:31:51 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 09, 2018, 08:15:06 AM
I just got off the phone with Baker and they told me that they don't have a tranny cover that will fit the M8.  I asked them what they thought was causing the issue with oil transfer.  They stated that Harley has made the tranny cover narrower and that it doesn't leave enough room for the oil at that end of the tranny and every time you shift it lets a little oil run over into the primary through the output shaft.  Also Baker doesn't think venting the primary case would help because venting isn't the issue in their opinion.  My bike is ready for pick up at the dealer for a 5 thousand mile oil monitoring.  We all know what that outcome will be, yep you are getting oil transfer.  The problem with that for me is that if a person was trying to give the bike back to Harley under the lemon law you would have to do this 3 to 4 times in one year to qualify for the lemon law. [ if your state has one ] Think about it, that would be 15 to 20 thousand miles in monitoring in one year, plus bet ya HD will only be willing to do the monitoring once.  Just like Harley not to fix the problem but call it normal.   Now for the crying....I have been riding Harleys for 53 years and every NEW HD I bought had issues that they would not address.  If they don't change the tolerances [ think crank runout to leak down test ] they call it normal.  Baker feels that the only fix would be a different tranny cover or maybe some machine work on the original cover. [ needs to be tested ] Never had this issue till the cover got re-design for the 17 - 18 M8's.  I don't think that Harley is going to hand out that many new, re-designed covers to fix the problem but I bet they will be on all the 2019's. Harley hopes that most people just puts gas in it and ride it to the dealer for oil changes.  I'm almost done with HD's problems and lack of fixes and their complacency with some issues.  My new name will be TRADER on a new Wing if this doesn't get fixed. Say what you want, I'm not a poser wearing a Harley shirt. The shirts will go with the bike.  I just want to ride without issues.

Don't get to exited,
The wings have their issues as well with ghost shifting, blown transmissions, bad pulse generators stranding you in the middle of nowhere and oh yeah very very limited accessories to chose from.
I also own an F6B and while the GL1800 engine is awesome it sure as hell isn't trouble free.
Plus I am not convinced this so called oil transfer issue is a problem at all because the only place I ever here about it is right here.
Cheers

When you make comments without knowing anything about the subject that you're commenting on, you look like a fool.  :kick: There are countless posts on multiple forums spelling out this issue. HD issued a Tech bulletin about it. HD has issued "fixes" that didn't fix the problem. MY BIKE DOES IT. So it's not internet hysteria, it's a very real and significant problem with their design. "Don't get too excited"? This design is two yrs old and Harley has shown that they have no clue how to stop it other than to keep draining the primary and re-filling the fluids.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
i just don't see why I should care if a little oil transfer is goin on.
I have never heard of a trans or primary blowing up from the oils co-mingling together nor has it happened to anyone that I ride with.
Been riding these beasts for over 40 years and average 10-15k a year so i'm no newby but if ya'll want to throw good money at this be my guest.
Be safe
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 09, 2018, 04:03:40 PM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
i just don't see why I should care if a little oil transfer is goin on.
I have never heard of a trans or primary blowing up from the oils co-mingling together nor has it happened to anyone that I ride with.
Been riding these beasts for over 40 years and average 10-15k a year so i'm no newby but if ya'll want to throw good money at this be my guest.
Be safe
The MoCo loves you. :hyst:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 09, 2018, 06:48:09 PM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
i just don't see why I should care if a little oil transfer is goin on.
I have never heard of a trans or primary blowing up from the oils co-mingling together nor has it happened to anyone that I ride with.
Been riding these beasts for over 40 years and average 10-15k a year so i'm no newby but if ya'll want to throw good money at this be my guest.
Be safe

You have your head buried in the sand?

Many of these oil transfers will drain the transmission in 1,000 or less. I don't call that "a little oil transfer". That is a big deal, unless you just ride to the corner bar and back. How would you feel if you spent close to $30,000 on a touring bike that you can't travel with? I have weekends where I might put 1,500 miles on. In the next couple weeks I plan on putting on few thousand miles. I don't see stopping every 400-500 miles and draining the excess oil from the primary and adding oil to the tranny. Co-mingling of the oil is not the problem. A transmission without any lube in it is the problem. It is a problem that with today's technology shouldn't exist.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 09, 2018, 07:18:13 PM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
i just don't see why I should care if a little oil transfer is goin on.
I have never heard of a trans or primary blowing up from the oils co-mingling together nor has it happened to anyone that I ride with.
Been riding these beasts for over 40 years and average 10-15k a year so i'm no newby but if ya'll want to throw good money at this be my guest.
Be safe

[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on August 10, 2018, 05:18:41 AM
Quote from: rbabos on August 09, 2018, 07:48:39 AM
Quote from: Mark P on August 09, 2018, 07:37:57 AM
Quote from: hdrider on August 07, 2018, 05:50:38 PM
When I talked to Baker we didn't get into the inherent mechanical advantage differences of the 1.5 inch vs 1 inch piston.  Maybe someone could check if the Harley stock piston is actually 1 inch -- the Baker website info simply says its compatible with the stock H-D or 11/16 Master Cylinder.  What the Baker guy was trying to explain was that the stock HD piston was so close in size to the opposing nut size, that tranny fluid had a hard time getting squished out of the gap between the piston and nut, but with the larger bore Baker piston the fluid could escape around the sides of the nut.
I'm just the messenger on this -- the Baker guy seemed to be a true believer in this solution.  I think somebody with the issue needs to try this and report back if it's really a cure or not.
I've been holding off buying an M8 just because of this problem. so I don't have an M8 to experiment on, otherwise I'd gladly do it myself.
I have a guy bringing his M8 over to my shop this weekend and I'm going to try and install one of our covers. I let you know how it works.
I would hope it already works or why would you be selling it? A technical explanation of how it works would suffice. Not like anything can be kept a secret for long.
Ron
No secrets, had one of the engineers tell me our covers will not work on the M8's but he didn't tell me why. I'm going to find out what needs to be done to make it work if I can.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on August 10, 2018, 05:35:31 AM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
i just don't see why I should care if a little oil transfer is goin on.
I have never heard of a trans or primary blowing up from the oils co-mingling together nor has it happened to anyone that I ride with.
Been riding these beasts for over 40 years and average 10-15k a year so i'm no newby but if ya'll want to throw good money at this be my guest.
Be safe

So, in you opinion it is perfectly fine that my transmission had leaked the majority of it's oil in to the primary by the time I hit 1k miles? It is fine that my dealer has me coming back every thousand miles so they can change things out? That's just plain stupid. I bet you wouldn't have that ridiculous opinion if it were your car that was doing it. I shouldn't have to drain my primary and re-fill trans and primary every 1k miles on a $2k motorcycle, never-mind a $26K+ motorcycle..... If I do choose to ignore it my transmission will surly fail due to a total lack of oil as will parts in the primary due to being way overfilled.

Name a modern vehicle that you have to do that with other than the M8.

I actually like the bike overall and my wife is happy that I finally have something that I can ride with her, so I am happy that I bought it but this part of it is entirely unacceptable.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ckwizard on August 10, 2018, 05:51:25 AM
All i'm saying guys is everyone I know in the great state of Texas and all my ol buds in Michigan are not having this issue.
The only place I ever hear about it is right here.
Now if ya'll are truly losing a full quart of oil from your transmission that's obviously an issue, I don't have my head in the sand I just can't find anyone that is experiencing this problem live and in person.
Most folks I talk to absolutely love their M8 and are not having any issues.
I have been wanting a new Road Glide Ultra so obviously it's a concern but it's been difficult to validate anywhere off the interweb.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 14GuineaPig on August 10, 2018, 05:57:49 AM
Read the Tech Article that Harley issued or are they making up the problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on August 10, 2018, 06:05:55 AM
I never had an issue with my 93 Sporty loosing engine oil...until it did, it was a costly mistake on my part  :banghead: I have no dog in this race, both my bikes are mid 90's bikes, I'd like to have a new bike but I can't seem to justify the costs right now, but I say to you, go for it, buy what you want, don't let the folks here sway you  :up: and IF you have issues, these fine folks will still be here to help.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: les on August 10, 2018, 06:37:28 AM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 10, 2018, 05:51:25 AM
All i'm saying guys is everyone I know in the great state of Texas and all my ol buds in Michigan are not having this issue.
The only place I ever hear about it is right here.
Now if ya'll are truly losing a full quart of oil from your transmission that's obviously an issue, I don't have my head in the sand I just can't find anyone that is experiencing this problem live and in person.
Most folks I talk to absolutely love their M8 and are not having any issues.
I have been wanting a new Road Glide Ultra so obviously it's a concern but it's been difficult to validate anywhere off the interweb.

So, the guys in Texas and Michigan are measuring the amount of fluid that comes out of their primary and tranny?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 10, 2018, 06:51:25 AM
Quote from: les on August 10, 2018, 06:37:28 AM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 10, 2018, 05:51:25 AM
All i'm saying guys is everyone I know in the great state of Texas and all my ol buds in Michigan are not having this issue.
The only place I ever hear about it is right here.
Now if ya'll are truly losing a full quart of oil from your transmission that's obviously an issue, I don't have my head in the sand I just can't find anyone that is experiencing this problem live and in person.
Most folks I talk to absolutely love their M8 and are not having any issues.
I have been wanting a new Road Glide Ultra so obviously it's a concern but it's been difficult to validate anywhere off the interweb.

So, the guys in Texas and Michigan are measuring the amount of fluid that comes out of their primary and tranny?

Kind of what I was thinking, if you don't know there's a problem, that doesn't mean there isn't one.
I have a friend with one, and I'm hesitant to mention any problems he might want to keep an eye on, because I want him to enjoy the bike. That doesn't mean he won't have any. We have a trip coming up in a few weeks, I might check his tranny when we get there.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on August 10, 2018, 08:04:32 AM
Quote from: hdrider on August 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM
After all the comments after my original post about the Baker fix for the fluid transfer, I went back to the Baker Vendor Display at Black Hills Harley in Rapid City and had a detailed discussion with 2 additional Baker Technicians and I believe I've finally gotten some answers.  Apparently the original technician I had talked to wasn't as clear in his explanation or he may have left some details out.

What I found out today is:

1. Baker firmly believes that their Hydraulic Side Cover design solves the M8 fluid transfer problem

2. The M8 Hydraulic Side Cover is in Production, but not available to order yet.  The covers are in final machining and still need to be chromed.  Expect them to be available to order in about a month.

3. The specs on the Baker website for the 06-17 Hydraulic Cover are for the Twin Cam Cover -- not the M8.

4.  The Piston size in the Stock H-D M8 and new M8 Baker Hydraulic Cover are the same size and slightly smaller than on the Twin Cam (don't know why H-D reduced the piston size for the M8).

5.  The big difference between the H-D cover and the Baker cover is that the H-D cover has a piston stop as part of the casting.  The stop limits the piston travel so it can't be pushed out of the bore, however this stop extends beyond the piston and literally surrounds the nut on the tranny door -- this creates a pocket that limits the movement of tranny fluid which gets pressurized and pushed past the clutch rod every time the clutch is actuated.  The Baker design doesn't have a piston stop --  the piston could theoretically be pushed out of the bore, but in reality is limited by the clutch rod travel, and finally it would hit the tranny nut before leaving the bore.  In other words the Baker design leaves the Tranny nut completely unshrouded.  At least thats the way it was explained to me by the latest Baker Technician and a bit different than my original understanding (and posting).

This got me to thinking that if Baker says the problem with the Stock H-D M8 hydraulic side cover is the piston stop, then why couldn't the stock cover be machined to eliminate the piston stop?  Does anyone have a photo of the inside of the stock M8 hydraulic cover to see exactly what Baker is referring to and whether it's something a machinist could readily modify?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06myway on August 10, 2018, 01:13:36 PM
are these issues with the M8 real, and other ones the TC's experienced? Yes, to the people who have had them, is it 3 out of 4 owners?  No it's less than 1% of 250k bikes that are sold a year... the problem is the issues get distorted because 12 people on the internet talk about them all day long while the rest of us ride issue free for most or all of our bikes life... to this day I've never talked to anyone who had a tensioner problem with the old initial design not saying those who have are making this sh*t up but in terms of on the street... it's a non issue... if 12 people have a problem and talk about it daily on a website, it doesn't make it a crisis...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 10, 2018, 03:28:12 PM
Keep in mind you 1% comes out to 2,500 motorcycles, not a huge amount, but plenty, I would hate to be one of the 1% with a $30K motorcycle that I can not ride across the state. I can not help but think it is more than 1% or HD would not even bother look at it.

I am still betting the problem will be corrected in the 2019 bikes and the '17-'18 M8's will get ignored.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on August 10, 2018, 03:55:41 PM
Quote from: hd06myway on August 10, 2018, 01:13:36 PM
are these issues with the M8 real, and other ones the TC's experienced? Yes, to the people who have had them, is it 3 out of 4 owners?  No it's less than 1% of 250k bikes that are sold a year... the problem is the issues get distorted because 12 people on the internet talk about them all day long while the rest of us ride issue free for most or all of our bikes life... to this day I've never talked to anyone who had a tensioner problem with the old initial design not saying those who have are making this sh*t up but in terms of on the street... it's a non issue... if 12 people have a problem and talk about it daily on a website, it doesn't make it a crisis...

where did you get your numbers. curious  why  your seem to be mocking those hundreds upon hundreds of people who have had issues not only with the m8 but the many other issues that are well know.  for many years.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 10, 2018, 08:30:22 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 09, 2018, 07:18:13 PM
Quote from: ckwizard on August 09, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
i just don't see why I should care if a little oil transfer is goin on.
I have never heard of a trans or primary blowing up from the oils co-mingling together nor has it happened to anyone that I ride with.
Been riding these beasts for over 40 years and average 10-15k a year so i'm no newby but if ya'll want to throw good money at this be my guest.
Be safe


[attach=0]


That doesn't look like sand to me .......  Preacher where are you ? ?       :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: packrat56 on August 10, 2018, 08:49:02 PM
   I did not notice that the first time, your right.
But I'm no expert.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on August 11, 2018, 04:53:00 AM
What makes a crisis is that Harley WILL NOT do anything for the 2,500 / 1% of the  folks that slapped down 30K plus to buy their product.  That makes it a CRISIS for them.  Thanks for ALL your support my motorcycle brother!  Would you like to take this 2018 Road King off my hands?  These forums are the only place that this type of info gets out there.  The great Mo. Co. won't tell the public about it.  I know, Fake News!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on August 11, 2018, 07:59:36 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 11, 2018, 04:53:00 AM
What makes a crisis is that Harley WILL NOT do anything for the 2,500 / 1% of the  folks that slapped down 30K plus to buy their product.  That makes it a CRISIS for them.  Thanks for ALL your support my motorcycle brother!  Would you like to take this 2018 Road King off my hands?  These forums are the only place that this type of info gets out there.  The great Mo. Co. won't tell the public about it.  I know, Fake News!

What is truly amazing  is the laws of lack there of they get away with picking your pocket  and have for many years. You have the wonder bout  the % of of these bikes that do have issue. Got to be realistic  and have to say it a much larger number than some want you to believe. Then if you can find  the real numbers it would shock some of these nay sayers  many have had multiple motor issues  with complete motors. Then the migration issues and that is just part of it. Yes the problems if we pay attention just a little and have no reason to  live in denial would  be a much higher %  if you or when many get new motors and other parts and the same thing happens in the 17 and 18 model years there is some dishonesty  goin on.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on August 11, 2018, 10:00:07 AM
What the percentage it is is irrelevant.  The testimonies we have here from known individuals that declare the MOCO denial when we all (or many of us) have seen the initial service bulletin that has now mysteriously vanished, is enough for me. These "new motorcycle" owners are not being satisfied within the warranty period. Some have lost riding time with the bike sitting at the dealer waiting for service / repair. This compounds the problem by burning up the best riding time as well as their warranty period.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Reddog74usa on August 11, 2018, 10:26:01 AM
You have to question the logic of the moco doing this. They are in fact losing a large amount of new bike sales because of all the issues with these 17's and 18's as many are waiting for them to get this situation remedied. The longer they take to get it right the fewer units they will move and even worse is the continuous amount of damage being done to the brand as this plays out. Don't know what's going on but my local dealer is running his dealership so thin that there are very few bikes on the floor with oil filters and clothes being all they stock. Lately I have gone in for common service type parts like a crank sensor and a seat nut kit and they tell me they have to order it. I just tell em I can order it also. I have to say the seat screw kit was the straw that broke the camel's back. To me they don't exist and I now order whatever I need from whoever supports me and appreciates my business. I was told by an employee they have bikes sitting in the repair shop all apart waiting for parts just sitting there during peak riding season due to parts not being stocked. There also having a hard time retaining good techs as they can't make any money if they can't get the bikes out. I guess somebody went to college to get that smart Ehhh!!!!!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on August 11, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
Quote from: kd on August 11, 2018, 10:00:07 AM
What the percentage it is is irrelevant.  The testimonies we have here from known individuals that declare the MOCO denial when we all (or many of us) have seen the initial service bulletin that has now mysteriously vanished, is enough for me. These "new motorcycle" owners are not being satisfied within the warranty period. Some have lost riding time with the bike sitting at the dealer waiting for service / repair. This compounds the problem by burning up the best riding time as well as their warranty period.
some people  try to confuse the issues with  a 1% BS figure from how i take it.  its only the amount of people ?  then you need to multiply this several times in far too many instance, brcause of a lack of a fix just the same ole .  so then the  % goes very high. then  leave the bikes in the shop  for weeks upon weeks and  you get the same parts  again so its pete and repeat  .   people finance the bikes  often , plan vacations and get stalled out on the road causing all kinds of  issues on top of the  failed product.how much of this can people tolerate  you have to wonder.   read where people are mocking  12 peoplewho are on the internet tellinngitlike it is and seems to upset some  for exposing the truth    . pretty shameful , and then they think people should carer if they been riding for the HD braand for 40 yeras plus and had up to 50 plus bikes . makes no differance any of the big headed razzle.  there are thousands of us out here who have been riding hd andmany other brands for 60 years  and who cares.  the issue is  the product that is very costly and has issues that from what we can see there is yet to be a fix for the late models  , nothing else matters at all.  would rather stay on topic innstead of  seing  a mockery of those who shave serious issues  with the product.



Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 11, 2018, 05:12:53 PM
The things that define the fact there is a problem and it's size are the actions of the MoCo.

They do not issue bulletins on nonexistent problems.

They do not send factory reps out to dealerships to perform or monitor tests on nonexistent problems

They do not issue newly designed additional seals for nonexistent problems

They do not invent primary vent kits for nonexistent problems

What they have done in the past and still are doing here is deny, deny, deny. Then stall while they come up with any type of patch to buy time so they can find the cheapest solution not to the problem but to the outrage that the problem is causing.  As a last resort they will spend time and money on an actual cure but only if it can be sold as an upgrade and then quietly phased into production as part of never ending product improvement down the road.

If it was as limited as some here want us to believe it never would have gotten out of the denial stage.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Reddog74usa on August 11, 2018, 06:25:42 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 11, 2018, 05:12:53 PM
The things that define the fact there is a problem and it's size are the actions of the MoCo.

They do not issue bulletins on nonexistent problems.

They do not send factory reps out to dealerships to perform or monitor tests on nonexistent problems

They do not issue newly designed additional seals for nonexistent problems

They do not invent primary vent kits for nonexistent problems

What they have done in the past and still are doing here is deny, deny, deny. Then stall while they come up with any type of patch to buy time so they can find the cheapest solution not to the problem but to the outrage that the problem is causing.  As a last resort they will spend time and money on an actual cure but only if it can be sold as an upgrade and then quietly phased into production as part of never ending product improvement down the road.

If it was as limited as some here want us to believe it never would have gotten out of the denial stage.


:up: :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on August 11, 2018, 07:05:34 PM
Quote from: Reddog74usa on August 11, 2018, 06:25:42 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 11, 2018, 05:12:53 PM
The things that define the fact there is a problem and it's size are the actions of the MoCo.

They do not issue bulletins on nonexistent problems.

They do not send factory reps out to dealerships to perform or monitor tests on nonexistent problems

They do not issue newly designed additional seals for nonexistent problems

They do not invent primary vent kits for nonexistent problems

What they have done in the past and still are doing here is deny, deny, deny. Then stall while they come up with any type of patch to buy time so they can find the cheapest solution not to the problem but to the outrage that the problem is causing.  As a last resort they will spend time and money on an actual cure but only if it can be sold as an upgrade and then quietly phased into production as part of never ending product improvement down the road.

If it was as limited as some here want us to believe it never would have gotten out of the denial stage.


:up: :up:

very straight forward and to the point.  No  BS just honesty   

Thanks 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 12, 2018, 01:51:55 AM
QuoteDoes anyone have a photo of the inside of the stock M8 hydraulic cover to see exactly what Baker is referring to and whether it's something a machinist could readily modify?

yes, way back toward the start of this thread 

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1152643#msg1152643

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1159595#msg1159595

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192581#msg1192581

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1191493#msg1191493

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1186213#msg1186213
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 06:07:50 AM
I think I see whats going on with the oil transfer issue.  A friend and I took off the tranny cover on a 2018 with this issue.  What we saw was a huge size hole in the output shaft for the pushrod to go through.  Don't see how tranny oil couldn't transfer.  On others that I have taken apart the output shaft hole was a few thousands [ 10K's or less, guessing ] bigger then the pushrod.  On this output shaft the hole was about 1/4 bigger then the pushrod. With some bikes doing it and some don't, I would think HD has more then one suppler for this part and this issue was not caught in the QC Dept.. The fix for this issue from HD is a sleeve type button that just pushes into the end of the output shaft to take up space, simple fix.  I'm going through the 5K mile oil check now with my dealer.  HD will not send the fix to the dealers or sell it to the customers until this check is done.  My god man, it's a 6 dollar gasket and a 2 dollar sleeve type button.  HD needs to send the fix to the dealers or sell it over the counters to the customer so they can get on with their life and stop hating the MoCo.  If HD sold motorcycles instead of images this fix would be #1 on the menu.  Maybe next time I will buy just the shirt and F_ _ _ K the bike!   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on August 13, 2018, 06:16:58 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 06:07:50 AM
My god man, it's a 6 dollar gasket and a 2 dollar sleeve type button.  HD needs to send the fix to the dealers or sell it over the counters to the customer so they can get on with their life and stop hating the MoCo.  If HD sold motorcycles instead of images this fix would be #1 on the menu.  Maybe next time I will buy just the shirt and F_ _ _ K the bike!
BINGO!!  We have a winner.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Scooterfish on August 13, 2018, 06:25:35 AM
It`s $8 in parts. What is the warranty labor time to do the repair? I`m guessing it`s the total cost to repair under warranty is the reason they are not doing a recall. As soon as someone takes a 19 a part to check for any  changes we will know more about what is going on behind closed doors at MoCo.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 06:37:16 AM
AMI mag has an article on this in issue 366 [ latest issue ] in the Hog Helpline section.  I just now opened the mag and found it.  Best mag out there!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 13, 2018, 06:41:45 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 06:37:16 AM
AMI mag has an article on this in issue 366 [ latest issue ] in the Hog Helpline section.  I just now opened the mag and found it.  Best mag out there!
According to some, the issue only exists here on this forum. AMI mag must be fake news. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hunter14 on August 13, 2018, 07:07:04 AM
Motorcycle Consumers News made mention about the problem...
Also i had the 8 dollar fix done .....Did not work...2017 M8...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ekb55 on August 13, 2018, 07:09:14 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 06:37:16 AM
AMI mag has an article on this in issue 366 [ latest issue ] in the Hog Helpline section.  I just now opened the mag and found it.  Best mag out there!

AMI?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 13, 2018, 07:11:38 AM
Quote from: ekb55 on August 13, 2018, 07:09:14 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 06:37:16 AM
AMI mag has an article on this in issue 366 [ latest issue ] in the Hog Helpline section.  I just now opened the mag and found it.  Best mag out there!

AMI?

AIM. American Iron Magazine
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on August 13, 2018, 07:14:28 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 13, 2018, 07:11:38 AM
Quote from: ekb55 on August 13, 2018, 07:09:14 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 06:37:16 AM
AMI mag has an article on this in issue 366 [ latest issue ] in the Hog Helpline section.  I just now opened the mag and found it.  Best mag out there!

AMI?

AIM. American Iron Magazine

They probably got that inquiry at least six months ago, but print magazine being what it is, finally got around to publishing it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ekb55 on August 13, 2018, 07:18:03 AM
Thank you
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 08:06:07 AM
One other think I had notice is that the tranny vent on the top cover is smaller than the one I had on my 07 Ultra.  The vent hose on the 07 look to be 3/16 [ gas line size ]  on the 18 it looks more like the size of vacuum line hose which has a much smaller ID.  Don't know if that could be an issue also, just saying.  AMI called the part a slinger assembly and the tech sheet I have from HD is called an Transmission oil defector kit.  Maybe HD came up with something different for the fix because their first attempt didn't work.  Time will tell.

For the folks that don't know....... AIM is American Iron Mag.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 13, 2018, 08:12:16 AM
Quote from: Jobie on August 13, 2018, 08:06:07 AM
One other think I had notice is that the tranny vent on the top cover is smaller than the one I had on my 07 Ultra.  The vent hose on the 07 look to be 3/16 [ gas line size ]  on the 18 it looks more like the size of vacuum line hose which has a much smaller ID.  Don't know if that could be an issue also, just saying.  AMI called the part a slinger assembly and the tech sheet I have from HD is called an Transmission oil defector kit.  Maybe HD came up with something different for the fix because their first attempt didn't work.  Time will tell.

For the folks that don't know....... AIM is American Iron Mag.
All you really need for a vent is a pin hole to do the job. The air exchange is really slow and low key.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on August 14, 2018, 09:32:51 AM
Quote from: FSG on August 12, 2018, 01:51:55 AM
QuoteDoes anyone have a photo of the inside of the stock M8 hydraulic cover to see exactly what Baker is referring to and whether it's something a machinist could readily modify?

yes, way back toward the start of this thread 

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1152643#msg1152643

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1159595#msg1159595

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192581#msg1192581

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1191493#msg1191493

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1186213#msg1186213


Thanks for posting this info.  The referenced photos and diagrams confirm what the Baker Technician was describing in that the M8 Hydraulic Side Cover traps tranny oil around the pushrod area that then gets pumped into the primary during every clutch actuation.  It looks like Bakers claim that their new Hydraulic Side cover design that un-shrouds the pushrod area (preventing tranny oil from getting trapped) and solves the fluid transfer problem is believable. It also looks like some judicious machining of the existing M8 side cover (as suggested in earlier posts) could accomplish the same thing.  Since I don't plan to buy an M8 until the 2019 models are out, I have time to wait to see if H-D did any meaningful changes or if I just need to buy the Baker Hydraulic Side Cover (which should be available to purchase in about a month).
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 11:08:11 AM
So I have been reading the last few pages of this thread with some chagrin. I solved the transfer problem a few months ago. It doesn't really matter what causes it as long as the solution keeps it from happening. "The Fix" as it is called keeps the oil in the transmission and doesn't allow it to transfer to the primary!

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 11:17:05 AM
Here is a picture to show what "The Fix" is:



Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on August 14, 2018, 11:34:12 AM
Great R&D work.    :up:     I know you've worked on this a bit. It'll be interesting to see if the 2019 bikes have a seal there.


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 14, 2018, 11:34:12 AM
Great R&D work.    :up:     I know you've worked on this a bit. It'll be interesting to see if the 2019 bikes have a seal there.

I sent it to the MOCO about a month ago, I haven't heard anything back from them. Not that they would have to tell me anything.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ohio HD on August 14, 2018, 12:17:16 PM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 14, 2018, 11:34:12 AM
Great R&D work.    :up:     I know you've worked on this a bit. It'll be interesting to see if the 2019 bikes have a seal there.

I sent it to the MOCO about a month ago, I haven't heard anything back from them. Not that they would have to tell me anything.
Yeah your right, and doubtful that they would say anything.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 14, 2018, 12:19:24 PM
QuoteIt doesn't really matter what causes it as long as the solution keeps it from happening.

IMO Prevention is always better than a cure/fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 14, 2018, 12:19:24 PM
QuoteIt doesn't really matter what causes it as long as the solution keeps it from happening.

IMO Prevention is always better than a cure/fix.

That's all well and fine, but so far nobody has a conclusive cause for why the transfer of fluids happen on M8's. It doesn't happen to all M8's, so why does it happen to some? What changed between the '16 models and the '17 models? The complete engine, the transmission case, the clutch actuator, the first gear, the mainshaft bearing, the engine breathers, the engine main seal. So is it any one thing, a specific combination of things? Really perplexing. You can look at "The Fix" as a cure or you could look at it as a prevention. The definition of prevention is effectual hindrance. In other words something that keeps a thing from happening.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on August 14, 2018, 01:48:15 PM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 11:08:11 AM
So I have been reading the last few pages of this thread with some chagrin. I solved the transfer problem a few months ago. It doesn't really matter what causes it as long as the solution keeps it from happening. "The Fix" as it is called keeps the oil in the transmission and doesn't allow it to transfer to the primary!

OK, so I read with interest your pdf on installing the "Fix".  It refers to a machined nut, a seal and a new side cover.

So where does one obtain these parts -- are you selling them online, on this forum, elsewhere, or was this a one off grand experiment for your personal use?  If selling them where do I shop and what are they selling for?

Also, what's the function of the vent hole in the slave cylinder?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 14, 2018, 03:53:09 PM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 11:08:11 AM
So I have been reading the last few pages of this thread with some chagrin. I solved the transfer problem a few months ago. It doesn't really matter what causes it as long as the solution keeps it from happening. "The Fix" as it is called keeps the oil in the transmission and doesn't allow it to transfer to the primary!

:up:
Quite a few jump in on the tail end of the thread and don't bother reading the early stuff.
Frequent happening in this thread
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 14, 2018, 04:20:30 PM
Quote from: hdrider on November 11, 1974, 10:52:49 AM

Also, what's the function of the vent hole in the slave cylinder?

To vent the primary.

The seal separates the tranny from the primary, but the primary still vents through the mainshaft to the slave cylinder.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on August 14, 2018, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 14, 2018, 12:19:24 PM
QuoteIt doesn't really matter what causes it as long as the solution keeps it from happening.

IMO Prevention is always better than a cure/fix.

That's all well and fine, but so far nobody has a conclusive cause for why the transfer of fluids happen on M8's. It doesn't happen to all M8's, so why does it happen to some? What changed between the '16 models and the '17 models? The complete engine, the transmission case, the clutch actuator, the first gear, the mainshaft bearing, the engine breathers, the engine main seal. So is it any one thing, a specific combination of things? Really perplexing. You can look at "The Fix" as a cure or you could look at it as a prevention. The definition of prevention is effectual hindrance. In other words something that keeps a thing from happening.
would some bikes have a lot more heat generated than other due to climate  or including some ride there bikes  faster   longer than tothers therefore more heard causing the buildup of pressure?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 14, 2018, 06:41:44 PM
Quote from: happyman on August 14, 2018, 06:26:43 PM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 14, 2018, 12:57:02 PM
Quote from: FSG on August 14, 2018, 12:19:24 PM
QuoteIt doesn't really matter what causes it as long as the solution keeps it from happening.

IMO Prevention is always better than a cure/fix.

That's all well and fine, but so far nobody has a conclusive cause for why the transfer of fluids happen on M8's. It doesn't happen to all M8's, so why does it happen to some? What changed between the '16 models and the '17 models? The complete engine, the transmission case, the clutch actuator, the first gear, the mainshaft bearing, the engine breathers, the engine main seal. So is it any one thing, a specific combination of things? Really perplexing. You can look at "The Fix" as a cure or you could look at it as a prevention. The definition of prevention is effectual hindrance. In other words something that keeps a thing from happening.
would some bikes have a lot more heat generated than other due to climate  or including some ride there bikes  faster   longer than tothers therefore more heard causing the buildup of pressure?

It is not a pressure problem, it is the liquid trans fluid force and trapped above the hole in the main shaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: happyman on August 14, 2018, 08:41:43 PM
What is the difference between force and pressure?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 15, 2018, 05:00:35 AM
Quote from: happyman on August 14, 2018, 08:41:43 PM
What is the difference between force and pressure?

The liquid is pushed into the right rear corner of the trans case faster than it can drain back to the center of the case. This makes the oil level in the area of the main shaft abnormally high so the oil just runs down the center of the main shaft into the primary. There is no higher pressure in the trans case pushing oil or air to the primary, the trans case is vented to the atmosphere. Any pressure build up in the primary case would cause it to vent through the main shaft into the trans as designed and that would not move oil from trans to primary.  Maybe it would be better to say it is an oil level problem not a case pressure problem.


The cable clutch set-ups do not have this problem so all the engine, trans, primary changes are not the cause. The difference is the trans end cover that houses the clutch actuator, the hydraulic cover design creates a more confined area that causes the high fluid level at the end of the main shaft . One option is to take the already confined area and add parts to seal it off totally so the oil can not get in to accumulate. The other option is to the open the area up so it can match the better draining capabilities of the cable set-up. One way adds additional parts and maintenance the other requires a modification to the current parts to better match a design that has worked for 30 years.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 15, 2018, 08:37:41 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on August 15, 2018, 05:00:35 AM
Quote from: happyman on August 14, 2018, 08:41:43 PM
What is the difference between force and pressure?

The liquid is pushed into the right rear corner of the trans case faster than it can drain back to the center of the case. This makes the oil level in the area of the main shaft abnormally high so the oil just runs down the center of the main shaft into the primary. There is no higher pressure in the trans case pushing oil or air to the primary, the trans case is vented to the atmosphere. Any pressure build up in the primary case would cause it to vent through the main shaft into the trans as designed and that would not move oil from trans to primary.  Maybe it would be better to say it is an oil level problem not a case pressure problem.


The cable clutch set-ups do not have this problem so all the engine, trans, primary changes are not the cause. The difference is the trans end cover that houses the clutch actuator, the hydraulic cover design creates a more confined area that causes the high fluid level at the end of the main shaft . One option is to take the already confined area and add parts to seal it off totally so the oil can not get in to accumulate. The other option is to the open the area up so it can match the better draining capabilities of the cable set-up. One way adds additional parts and maintenance the other requires a modification to the current parts to better match a design that has worked for 30 years.

I think your assumption of what is taking place in the transmission has some merit, but the same inner side cover has been used since 2013. There were reported cases of transfer on earlier models, but they seem to have been rare. The MOCO's cure for the problem was to replace the engine seal, which is why they are still doing that, but without positive results.

I had a couple people that used my fix try venting the primary by drilling a 1/16" hole in the seal near the top. The transfer continued through that tiny hole. That shows that what you are saying about the oil being forced is likely correct. There is at least enough force to push the oil to the top of the seal and probably enough to push it through the 1/16" hole. Now one thing is for sure in this situation with the seal in place. Once the oil is in the actuator cavity it only has one place to go because it is not going back into the transmission.

I am going to try opening up the inner cover as you have suggested on my 2015 Road Glide. It transferred when I had it dynoed. I have installed a DD7 in it and because of the wider bearings my fix with the seal will not work without some additional machining. One thing I have considered in this transmission is installing a shielded bearing on the mainshaft. Because of the extra width that should be an option.

One thing that has not been tried to my knowledge is installing the side cover / actuator from a 2012 hydraulic clutch. It is wide open like the cable actuated side cover. It uses a different master cylinder than the later models, but if the fluid volume is close to the 13-16 models or the 17-18 models, one of those should work.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on August 22, 2018, 09:22:51 AM
Could the installation of a reverse gear solve the problem?
This might give room for oil to go elsewhere?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on August 22, 2018, 09:49:00 AM
Looking at the 2019 parts book, they have changed the secondary actuator (37200131B) , and added the oil deflector (36300026), to all models with hydraulic clutches - so I guess that is their "fix".
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on August 22, 2018, 10:28:56 AM
I wonder if that part combo has been tested on any 17's or 18's - or is the MoCo just gonna 'see' if it works  :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: CarlosGGodfrog on August 22, 2018, 05:54:20 PM
Seeing what the fix is, It is too bad a 1/16 -> 1/8 shim + gasket sandwiched in the side plate with a corresponding longer push rod would not work. Basically just shim out the side cover so the slave piston housing is not close to the end bell of the transmission.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on August 22, 2018, 10:30:54 PM
Quote from: CarlosGGodfrog on August 22, 2018, 05:54:20 PM
Seeing what the fix is, It is too bad a 1/16 -> 1/8 shim + gasket sandwiched in the side plate with a corresponding longer push rod would not work. Basically just shim out the side cover so the slave piston housing is not close to the end bell of the transmission.
You are confusing the 'fix' with a possible remedy from the MoCo
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: CarlosGGodfrog on August 23, 2018, 10:14:57 AM
call it what you will, maybe instead of 'Seeing what the fix is' I should have said 'a fix could be ->'
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigtwin on August 23, 2018, 10:23:10 AM
Quote from: CarlosGGodfrog on August 22, 2018, 05:54:20 PM
Seeing what the fix is, It is too bad a 1/16 -> 1/8 shim + gasket sandwiched in the side plate with a corresponding longer push rod would not work. Basically just shim out the side cover so the slave piston housing is not close to the end bell of the transmission.


a reverse gear can do that no?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on August 25, 2018, 08:32:31 AM
As I recall the reason for the slave cylinder change from TC to M8 was for longer throw... less KLANK into first.

Wonder if they're back to making klankers?

I tried to buy a M8 cylinder for my '15 Limited when the M8 first came out, no one would sell me one.... "dealer item only". I'm guessing the new cylinders will be the same.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 26, 2018, 10:10:38 PM
I have bought an M8 actuator, no problem. I have another one on its way. I don't know why they wouldn't sell you one unless you told them what you were going to do with it. The '15 master cylinder and the M8 actuator don't work well together. I actually put it on my '15 RGS and the pull was pretty tough. I had to switch to the M8 master cylinder and hydraulic line. The '15 hydraulic line has a different fitting on the actuator end. Had to change it when I changed the actuator. It was a pretty expensive swap, not sure it was worth it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on August 27, 2018, 04:48:00 AM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 26, 2018, 10:10:38 PM
I have bought an M8 actuator, no problem. I have another one on its way. I don't know why they wouldn't sell you one unless you told them what you were going to do with it. The '15 master cylinder and the M8 actuator don't work well together. I actually put it on my '15 RGS and the pull was pretty tough. I had to switch to the M8 master cylinder and hydraulic line. The '15 hydraulic line has a different fitting on the actuator end. Had to change it when I changed the actuator. It was a pretty expensive swap, not sure it was worth it.

Hi John,

That item can only be ordered through a dealership who has the bike in for service.

Anthony Wilson | (866)405-1164
BoardtrackerHarleyOnline.com | Return Policy
On 9/5/2016 8:37 PM, noreply@storesonlinepro.com wrote:
Date:    Mon 5 Sep 2016 8:37:51 PM CDT

Email Address: rock-out@att.net
Message: Please include part number if known.
37200131


They eventually sold to the public.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: twincamzz on August 27, 2018, 08:07:06 AM
I tried to buy an actuator from several of the online dealers and was refused as well. Local dealers were no help either.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DaddyKnuck on August 27, 2018, 07:18:10 PM
   CLUTCH ACTUATOR,SECONDARY   37200131A   

If this is the part we're talking about, i bought one July 27th from Boardtracker. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on August 28, 2018, 05:49:11 AM
You can buy them now, but not when they first came out.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on August 28, 2018, 03:51:44 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on August 27, 2018, 04:48:00 AM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 26, 2018, 10:10:38 PM
I have bought an M8 actuator, no problem. I have another one on its way. I don't know why they wouldn't sell you one unless you told them what you were going to do with it. The '15 master cylinder and the M8 actuator don't work well together. I actually put it on my '15 RGS and the pull was pretty tough. I had to switch to the M8 master cylinder and hydraulic line. The '15 hydraulic line has a different fitting on the actuator end. Had to change it when I changed the actuator. It was a pretty expensive swap, not sure it was worth it.

Hi John,

That item can only be ordered through a dealership who has the bike in for service.

Anthony Wilson | (866)405-1164
BoardtrackerHarleyOnline.com | Return Policy
On 9/5/2016 8:37 PM, noreply@storesonlinepro.com wrote:
Date:    Mon 5 Sep 2016 8:37:51 PM CDT

Email Address: rock-out@att.net
Message: Please include part number if known.
37200131


They eventually sold to the public.

This was early on and probably because JIT manufacturing required all units delivered to the production line unless for warranty work. Very common on new models and parts.
Also with them now replacing the -a with the -b they have been doing something in that area.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DTTJGlide on August 28, 2018, 09:19:15 PM
So has anyone tried the 37200131B actuator to see if that fixes the transfer problem?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: yobtaf103 on August 28, 2018, 10:49:46 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on August 28, 2018, 09:19:15 PM
So has anyone tried the 37200131B actuator to see if that fixes the transfer problem?

Maybe just a fix for the late engagement the lever ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on August 29, 2018, 02:35:55 AM
Quote from: yobtaf103 on August 28, 2018, 10:49:46 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on August 28, 2018, 09:19:15 PM
So has anyone tried the 37200131B actuator to see if that fixes the transfer problem?

Maybe just a fix for the late engagement the lever ?

That's what I think too!

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on August 29, 2018, 04:35:03 AM
The actuator I had on order turned out to be the B actuator. I can see no external difference between it and the A actuator. The difference must be internal and related to clutch action. There is nothing that would make any difference in the transfer department.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on August 29, 2018, 05:45:42 AM
When someone installs the B actuator" and puts 5000 miles on the bike and does the oil change record the volumes and let me know. Until then. :pop:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on August 29, 2018, 07:56:30 AM
Quote from: $tonecold on August 29, 2018, 04:35:03 AM
The actuator I had on order turned out to be the B actuator. I can see no external difference between it and the A actuator. The difference must be internal and related to clutch action. There is nothing that would make any difference in the transfer department.

Thanks!  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: lonegoosehonking on September 19, 2018, 03:37:54 AM
See Below.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: lonegoosehonking on September 19, 2018, 03:39:47 AM
Just saw this on facebook. Anyone try it , think it has merit?


Harley Clutch push rod to stop fluid transfer.


$50

Macomb, MI


Your transmission fluid to primary transfer worries are over! I have push rods available for the clutch to take care of the problem. After extensive testing , research and development this is the cure for the problem. This replaces the Harley clutch push rod part number 37000218 . This is the part that changed to allow the fluid to transfer. This push rod will install in 5 minutes. A total of 15 with correcting the fluids. You can order them now. I do accept PayPal. My PayPal is..
macombcountychoppers@gmail.com
They are $49.99 and $17.50 shipping to the lower 48.

All of the bikes are affected from 2014 and up with hydraulic clutch . This includes twin cams and Milwaukee 8s

Testing revealed that more City ridden motorcycles are susceptible to extensive transfer due to more turning involved.

Harley Davidson has no clue how to fix the problem. they pulled the TSB that was out. Most dealers are told to say they don't know anything about this issue. We all know it exists.

Just saying...Read Below

From Ian Macdonald
Trans fluid transfer update.

If this subject irritates you, keep scrolling.

Some of you may recall my bike was having the issue looked at by my local dealer. Long story short, it went in 3 times for 3 different attempts with ZERO success. As a matter of fact the problem got worse.
Greg Williams sent one of his first prototype pushrods to try out. I had to wait for quite a while while HD dicked me around with their futile attempts and had me sealed out of my tranny and primary so I could not tamper with fluid levels. Anyway, got the part installed a few days ago and am happy to report that after close to 1000km / 600 miles I have ZERO TRANSFER. in the past it was loosing anywhere from 12-16 oz within 500 km. I checked, measured at 500 then put on another 500 and measured again. Trans is staying right where it should be and bike is shifting smooth and running great. If anyone is on the fence about trying this fix because you are worried about your warranty, I recommend just doing it. If your concerned about what dealer says, DONT TELL THEM ! It's an easy 5 minute install and honestly with a T27 torx bit and a pair of snap ring pliers in your bag you could change it back to stock in minutes if you had to before the dealers went to work on it. I have been working with my dealer for 7 months and 30000 km trying to get this rectified and was at the end of my rope ready to get rid of the bike. Greg's piece works. Period. Will it work for every bike affected? Tough to say but what do you have to loose? Drop the $67 and put it in. I'm more than confident you won't be sorry. My hat is off to Greg and his crew at Macomb County Choppers for not only designing, and manufacturing the fix for this common problem but also his selfless attitude in helping out fellow bikers to make their machine right. Even north of the border in BC Canada 🇨🇦. Thanks again Brother
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
Know its probably not worth the hassle but applying for a patent would keep the MoCo from taking the design and calling it their own.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ekb55 on September 19, 2018, 07:47:11 AM
The utilization of the thicker clutch rod that stops the transfer means one of two things to me.  Either the HD pushrods were the victim of poor quality control and some were machined thinner than others allowing the transfer OR the transmission shaft passage that the pushrod passes through was the victim of poor quality control and were made too large allowing the transfer. I say quality control issue due to some having it and some not.

I had a 2017 Street Glide that was built December of 16 and transferred big time.  I now have a 2018 Street Glide build date of December 17, no issues.

For the record, the 107 M8 engine itself in each bike was trouble-free.

Just my 2c worth
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on September 19, 2018, 09:00:03 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
Know its probably not worth the hassle but applying for a patent would keep the MoCo from taking the design and calling it their own.
:hyst: Yes, you keep believing that.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 09:12:45 AM
Quote from: rbabos on September 19, 2018, 09:00:03 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
Know its probably not worth the hassle but applying for a patent would keep the MoCo from taking the design and calling it their own.
:hyst: Yes, you keep believing that.
Ron
I do know a very good patent attorney.  :bike:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on September 19, 2018, 09:46:03 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 09:12:45 AM
Quote from: rbabos on September 19, 2018, 09:00:03 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
Know its probably not worth the hassle but applying for a patent would keep the MoCo from taking the design and calling it their own.
:hyst: Yes, you keep believing that.
Ron
I do know a very good patent attorney.  :bike:
So did we. Point is by the time you pay for all the "Potty mouth" and how many one can actually sell, the process isn't worth it. Sell as many as you can and as fast as possible is the better option. Then there won't be need of a wheel barrow full of money to defend. Remember, HD has a room full of attorneys foaming at the mouth, waiting for something to do.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on September 19, 2018, 10:37:11 AM
Quote from: lonegoosehonking on September 19, 2018, 03:39:47 AM
Just saw this on facebook. Anyone try it , think it has merit?


Harley Clutch push rod to stop fluid transfer.


$50

Macomb, MI


Your transmission fluid to primary transfer worries are over! I have push rods available for the clutch to take care of the problem. After extensive testing , research and development this is the cure for the problem. This replaces the Harley clutch push rod part number 37000218 . This is the part that changed to allow the fluid to transfer. This push rod will install in 5 minutes. A total of 15 with correcting the fluids. You can order them now. I do accept PayPal. My PayPal is..
macombcountychoppers@gmail.com
They are $49.99 and $17.50 shipping to the lower 48.

All of the bikes are affected from 2014 and up with hydraulic clutch . This includes twin cams and Milwaukee 8s

Testing revealed that more City ridden motorcycles are susceptible to extensive transfer due to more turning involved.

Harley Davidson has no clue how to fix the problem. they pulled the TSB that was out. Most dealers are told to say they don't know anything about this issue. We all know it exists.

Just saying...Read Below

From Ian Macdonald
Trans fluid transfer update.

If this subject irritates you, keep scrolling.

Some of you may recall my bike was having the issue looked at by my local dealer. Long story short, it went in 3 times for 3 different attempts with ZERO success. As a matter of fact the problem got worse.
Greg Williams sent one of his first prototype pushrods to try out. I had to wait for quite a while while HD dicked me around with their futile attempts and had me sealed out of my tranny and primary so I could not tamper with fluid levels. Anyway, got the part installed a few days ago and am happy to report that after close to 1000km / 600 miles I have ZERO TRANSFER. in the past it was loosing anywhere from 12-16 oz within 500 km. I checked, measured at 500 then put on another 500 and measured again. Trans is staying right where it should be and bike is shifting smooth and running great. If anyone is on the fence about trying this fix because you are worried about your warranty, I recommend just doing it. If your concerned about what dealer says, DONT TELL THEM ! It's an easy 5 minute install and honestly with a T27 torx bit and a pair of snap ring pliers in your bag you could change it back to stock in minutes if you had to before the dealers went to work on it. I have been working with my dealer for 7 months and 30000 km trying to get this rectified and was at the end of my rope ready to get rid of the bike. Greg's piece works. Period. Will it work for every bike affected? Tough to say but what do you have to loose? Drop the $67 and put it in. I'm more than confident you won't be sorry. My hat is off to Greg and his crew at Macomb County Choppers for not only designing, and manufacturing the fix for this common problem but also his selfless attitude in helping out fellow bikers to make their machine right. Even north of the border in BC Canada 🇨🇦. Thanks again Brother

Sounds like the typical Facebook Scam -- if it sounds too good to be true it probably isn't true.  Also, I'd like to see someone change a clutch push rod in 5 minutes --- it'll take longer than that to get the exhaust and other crap out of the way of the clutch cover.  I'd say an hour minimum.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on September 19, 2018, 10:59:37 AM
Quote from: hdrider on September 19, 2018, 10:37:11 AM

Sounds like the typical Facebook Scam -- if it sounds too good to be true it probably isn't true.  Also, I'd like to see someone change a clutch push rod in 5 minutes --- it'll take longer than that to get the exhaust and other crap out of the way of the clutch cover.  I'd say an hour minimum.

Pull the derby cover, pull the pressure plate snap ring, remove the pushrod and replace.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DTTJGlide on September 19, 2018, 11:11:23 AM
I find it hard to trust a good samaritan that charges $17.50 to mail out his wonderful fix, when it could be thrown in a mailing tube & sent for less than half that amount. I'm lucky that mine has only transferred about 5-6 oz in 38K, I'll let somebody else be the guinea pig.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on September 19, 2018, 11:50:42 AM
Quote from: lonegoosehonking on September 19, 2018, 03:39:47 AM
Just saw this on facebook. Anyone try it , think it has merit?


Harley Clutch push rod to stop fluid transfer.


$50

Macomb, MI


Your transmission fluid to primary transfer worries are over! I have push rods available for the clutch to take care of the problem. After extensive testing , research and development this is the cure for the problem. This replaces the Harley clutch push rod part number 37000218 . This is the part that changed to allow the fluid to transfer. This push rod will install in 5 minutes. A total of 15 with correcting the fluids. You can order them now. I do accept PayPal. My PayPal is..
macombcountychoppers@gmail.com
They are $49.99 and $17.50 shipping to the lower 48.

All of the bikes are affected from 2014 and up with hydraulic clutch . This includes twin cams and Milwaukee 8s

Testing revealed that more City ridden motorcycles are susceptible to extensive transfer due to more turning involved.

Harley Davidson has no clue how to fix the problem. they pulled the TSB that was out. Most dealers are told to say they don't know anything about this issue. We all know it exists.

Just saying...Read Below

From Ian Macdonald
Trans fluid transfer update.

If this subject irritates you, keep scrolling.

Some of you may recall my bike was having the issue looked at by my local dealer. Long story short, it went in 3 times for 3 different attempts with ZERO success. As a matter of fact the problem got worse.
Greg Williams sent one of his first prototype pushrods to try out. I had to wait for quite a while while HD dicked me around with their futile attempts and had me sealed out of my tranny and primary so I could not tamper with fluid levels. Anyway, got the part installed a few days ago and am happy to report that after close to 1000km / 600 miles I have ZERO TRANSFER. in the past it was loosing anywhere from 12-16 oz within 500 km. I checked, measured at 500 then put on another 500 and measured again. Trans is staying right where it should be and bike is shifting smooth and running great. If anyone is on the fence about trying this fix because you are worried about your warranty, I recommend just doing it. If your concerned about what dealer says, DONT TELL THEM ! It's an easy 5 minute install and honestly with a T27 torx bit and a pair of snap ring pliers in your bag you could change it back to stock in minutes if you had to before the dealers went to work on it. I have been working with my dealer for 7 months and 30000 km trying to get this rectified and was at the end of my rope ready to get rid of the bike. Greg's piece works. Period. Will it work for every bike affected? Tough to say but what do you have to loose? Drop the $67 and put it in. I'm more than confident you won't be sorry. My hat is off to Greg and his crew at Macomb County Choppers for not only designing, and manufacturing the fix for this common problem but also his selfless attitude in helping out fellow bikers to make their machine right. Even north of the border in BC Canada 🇨🇦. Thanks again Brother

Yes it has merit. It is doing pretty much what the '14 three piece hydraulic pushrod does, increases the size of the pushrod. The '14 three piece hydraulic pushrod has been used with success in Germany, the German Harley riders were the first to try it, and by a couple riders at least that I am aware of in the US. The German riders have reported that there have been cases where it did not solve the transfer problem though. There have been two or three failures in about ten to twelve installations of the three piece pushrod in Germany. For what its worth the part numbers are 37000112, 37000113, & 37092-06 and combined they cost less than $30 from boardtracker. The installation does require a little more than the Williams pushrod as you will need to pull the actuator to install the piece on that side.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: lonegoosehonking on September 19, 2018, 12:48:06 PM
Agree on the shipping. Puzzles me why people do that as it can have impact on sales. He had a video that shows his product vs. the stock clutch rod. He wiggles the stock one and it is sloppy as all hell. His is a better fit as well as he says he has a .040" flat the full length of the clutch pushrod. Now I know from reading people are saying it is either a vacuum issue , or an issue of oil being pumped by clutch actuator. Could the flat provide equalization of pressure between the primary and clutch cavities ?  Surely that wouldn't aid in the argument that the larger diameter pushrod would inhibit oil flow from the trans to the primary. Could it mean that indeed there is a pressure difference that causes oil to be wicked to the primary ? I viewed pictures of Stone Colds set up and it definitely addresses the issue. Just curious if this guys rod is fact or fiction.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on September 19, 2018, 01:12:05 PM
It does address this from the aspect of finding what Harley changed to cause the problem and change that thing back rather than further complicating things and adding more unknowns.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: motorhogman on September 20, 2018, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on September 19, 2018, 11:11:23 AM
I find it hard to trust a good samaritan that charges $17.50 to mail out his wonderful fix, when it could be thrown in a mailing tube & sent for less than half that amount. I'm lucky that mine has only transferred about 5-6 oz in 38K, I'll let somebody else be the guinea pig.

:agree:

That's for sure.. There is great profits in shipping these days for some.  I ordered a needle and seat from Briggs & Stratton for my string mower.. Parts were about $4.00, shipping was almost $7.00   Those two little pieces don't even weigh an oz. They came in a little bubble envelope and the postage wasn't on it..
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on September 20, 2018, 08:30:58 AM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 20, 2018, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on September 19, 2018, 11:11:23 AM
I find it hard to trust a good samaritan that charges $17.50 to mail out his wonderful fix, when it could be thrown in a mailing tube & sent for less than half that amount. I'm lucky that mine has only transferred about 5-6 oz in 38K, I'll let somebody else be the guinea pig.

:agree:

That's for sure.. There is great profits in shipping these days for some.  I ordered a needle and seat from Briggs & Stratton for my string mower.. Parts were about $4.00, shipping was almost $7.00   Those two little pieces don't even weigh an oz. They came in a little bubble envelope and the postage wasn't on it..

Yeah he screwed up! Should have just set the price at $69.99 with free shipping and handling. Then everybody would be going on about what a great guy for shipping it free!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: motorhogman on September 21, 2018, 10:16:32 AM
Quote from: $tonecold on September 20, 2018, 08:30:58 AM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 20, 2018, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on September 19, 2018, 11:11:23 AM
I find it hard to trust a good samaritan that charges $17.50 to mail out his wonderful fix, when it could be thrown in a mailing tube & sent for less than half that amount. I'm lucky that mine has only transferred about 5-6 oz in 38K, I'll let somebody else be the guinea pig.

:agree:

That's for sure.. There is great profits in shipping these days for some.  I ordered a needle and seat from Briggs & Stratton for my string mower.. Parts were about $4.00, shipping was almost $7.00   Those two little pieces don't even weigh an oz. They came in a little bubble envelope and the postage wasn't on it..

Yeah he screwed up! Should have just set the price at $69.99 with free shipping and handling. Then everybody would be going on about what a great guy for shipping it free!

If this fix actually works and he is the one and only producer and seller of it You are absolutely right..

My point about shipping being profitable is easy to find all over the internet.


I bought a muffler for my Ford recently on line. Major suppliers had shipping charges all over the place. I did find it on Amazon with free shipping after much snooping around and for a price better than Rock Auto and anybody on ebay..

OK  we are off topic.

I hope this fix does work.. Just seems so stooopid the MOCO could not have seen this coming with all their "testing"  they do on new stuff.. LOL   Ya right.. I'm sure by 2020 they will have it all worked out.   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on September 22, 2018, 11:05:42 AM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 21, 2018, 10:16:32 AM
Quote from: $tonecold on September 20, 2018, 08:30:58 AM
Quote from: motorhogman on September 20, 2018, 08:17:44 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on September 19, 2018, 11:11:23 AM
I find it hard to trust a good samaritan that charges $17.50 to mail out his wonderful fix, when it could be thrown in a mailing tube & sent for less than half that amount. I'm lucky that mine has only transferred about 5-6 oz in 38K, I'll let somebody else be the guinea pig.

:agree:

That's for sure.. There is great profits in shipping these days for some.  I ordered a needle and seat from Briggs & Stratton for my string mower.. Parts were about $4.00, shipping was almost $7.00   Those two little pieces don't even weigh an oz. They came in a little bubble envelope and the postage wasn't on it..

Yeah he screwed up! Should have just set the price at $69.99 with free shipping and handling. Then everybody would be going on about what a great guy for shipping it free!

If this fix actually works and he is the one and only producer and seller of it You are absolutely right..

My point about shipping being profitable is easy to find all over the internet.


I bought a muffler for my Ford recently on line. Major suppliers had shipping charges all over the place. I did find it on Amazon with free shipping after much snooping around and for a price better than Rock Auto and anybody on ebay..

OK  we are off topic.

I hope this fix does work.. Just seems so stooopid the MOCO could not have seen this coming with all their "testing"  they do on new stuff.. LOL   Ya right.. I'm sure by 2020 they will have it all worked out.   
Seems two years to debug a new design isn't enough any more? Really sad.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Will-Run on September 22, 2018, 01:04:44 PM
Relax Guys. They have only been doing this :turd: for 115 years. They'll get it right sooner or later.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on October 12, 2018, 02:49:30 PM
Does anyone have or know where I can get a copy of the service bulletin HD put out for this issue and then pulled it?
TIA
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on October 12, 2018, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on October 12, 2018, 02:49:30 PM
Does anyone have or know where I can get a copy of the service bulletin HD put out for this issue and then pulled it?
TIA
FSG posted it once, a while back. I'm sure he still has a copy of it. The HD bulletin came and went real fast.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Coyote on October 12, 2018, 05:26:47 PM
Here  (http://harleytechtalk.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=3383)it is.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on October 12, 2018, 05:46:53 PM
Quote from: Coyote on October 12, 2018, 05:26:47 PM
Here  (http://harleytechtalk.com/MGalleryItem.php?id=3383)it is.
Thanks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on October 15, 2018, 06:11:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on September 19, 2018, 09:00:03 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
Know its probably not worth the hassle but applying for a patent would keep the MoCo from taking the design and calling it their own.
:hyst: Yes, you keep believing that.
Ron


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on October 15, 2018, 06:15:30 AM
 had a bike with that NEW larger rod that will stop it . well not sure about on the street but 3500 RPM 3750 on the drum well you know .  All the guy paid me to do was run in specific RPM ranges and that was it  not sure what he was up to etc  but he has tried all of the items from what I gathered to stop the transfer .
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: $tonecold on October 15, 2018, 07:05:02 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on October 15, 2018, 06:11:17 AM
Quote from: rbabos on September 19, 2018, 09:00:03 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 19, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
Know its probably not worth the hassle but applying for a patent would keep the MoCo from taking the design and calling it their own.
:hyst: Yes, you keep believing that.
Ron


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I doubt that a patent if it is possible would keep the MOCO from copying this pushrod. He basically took their pushrod and made it slightly bigger in diameter. This is the same premise that makes the 2014 three piece hydraulic pushrod a remedy for transfer. What he did was make it one piece and bigger for the whole length. It is also easier to install since it can be inserted from the clutch / primary side. Even if he had a patent all the MOCO or anyone would have to do is alter it a little, say make it bigger on the actuator end and then smaller the rest of the length.

I just installed the three piece 2014 hydraulic pushrod in my 2015 RGS that has a DD7 Baker transmission and was transferring. I also altered the inner side cover to allow the oil that is being pushed through the mainshaft bearing a larger pathway to drain back to the transmission.[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: stro1965 on November 21, 2018, 05:20:56 PM
I installed my Facebook guy clutch push rod today. I should know sometime in the spring if it helps!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 05:57:13 AM
Our new side covers are ready. $525 for the kit includes clutch push rods, throwout bearing, release plate, adjuster and fittings for the hydraulic line.

https://bakerdrivetrain.com/collections/2018-factory-compatible-products/products/hydraulic-side-cover?variant=21168926097486

Don't forget your HTT discount.

Mark
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on December 13, 2018, 06:16:14 AM
   Is this going to take care of trans fluid leaking into the primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on December 13, 2018, 06:33:15 AM
Quote from: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 05:57:13 AM
Our new side covers are ready. $525 for the kit includes clutch push rods, throwout bearing, release plate, adjuster and fittings for the hydraulic line.

https://bakerdrivetrain.com/collections/2018-factory-compatible-products/products/hydraulic-side-cover?variant=21168926097486

Don't forget your HTT discount.

Mark
:up: that's why I love this place, good deal Mark !
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on December 13, 2018, 06:16:14 AM
   Is this going to take care of trans fluid leaking into the primary.

That's the plan.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 08flstf on December 13, 2018, 01:51:31 PM
Quote from: stro1965 on November 21, 2018, 05:20:56 PM
I installed my Facebook guy clutch push rod today. I should know sometime in the spring if it helps!

Do you have a link for the fb clutch pushrod guy?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogsty on December 13, 2018, 02:38:46 PM
Quote from: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 05:57:13 AM
Our new side covers are ready. $525 for the kit includes clutch push rods, throwout bearing, release plate, adjuster and fittings for the hydraulic line.

https://bakerdrivetrain.com/collections/2018-factory-compatible-products/products/hydraulic-side-cover?variant=21168926097486

Don't forget your HTT discount.

Mark

I'm confused.  Does this cover have an integrated slave cylinder?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on December 13, 2018, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on December 13, 2018, 06:16:14 AM
   Is this going to take care of trans fluid leaking into the primary.

That's the plan.

And if it doesn't? Don't really want to light $500 on fire....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on December 13, 2018, 04:03:16 PM
Quote from: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on December 13, 2018, 06:16:14 AM
   Is this going to take care of trans fluid leaking into the primary.

That's the plan.
plan = 50/50 to me. A better word might be in order.  :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on December 13, 2018, 06:05:07 PM
Quote from: rbabos on December 13, 2018, 04:03:16 PM
Quote from: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on December 13, 2018, 06:16:14 AM
   Is this going to take care of trans fluid leaking into the primary.

That's the plan.
plan = 50/50 to me. A better word might be in order.  :wink:
Ron

Right. That's a lot of dough if I'd doesn't do anything other than look different.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Mark P on December 14, 2018, 06:41:50 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on December 13, 2018, 03:30:40 PM
Quote from: Mark P on December 13, 2018, 06:36:23 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on December 13, 2018, 06:16:14 AM
   Is this going to take care of trans fluid leaking into the primary.

That's the plan.

And if it doesn't? Don't really want to light $500 on fire....
Like everything we make it has a warranty, if it doesn't do what's it's designed to do send it back.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Scottr on December 19, 2018, 02:34:41 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 20, 2017, 09:13:19 AM
Has anyone figured out what is different between these and the last twin cam parts?
The trans and primary have been connected in this fashion for a long time, the pressures should not have changed and with the trans having the vent I would think pressure from the primary would push fluid the other direction.

I would think it is a mechanical action sending fluid down the clutch rod and that comparing parts from the previous design would show what is causing it. Anyone have pictures of some actual pieces?

The size of the primary has changed. The space to build pressure has been decreased. Hence the new slimmer primary design jmo.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Scottr on December 19, 2018, 03:03:55 PM
Quote from: sneakypete on July 02, 2017, 08:50:39 AM
I had the opportunity to talk to one of the guys at my local HD shop yesterday and I asked him if he had heard anything about this situation he said he hadn't yet. I told him he probably would at some point.  On the other hand if he did know about it he wasn't saying...
I mentioned the clutch recall fix to my dealer and he said immediately after asking that this would not fix the migration issue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Scottr on December 19, 2018, 03:24:27 PM
Quote from: rbabos on July 19, 2017, 05:51:37 AM
I find this all interesting. Discussions are great but seldom solve issues.  Me, I'd whip up a fitting for the primary some way and attach a vacuum gauge it to the primary and see if it pulls vacuum on hard decels or above 3500 rpms. Great test for any dyno tuners here. Should be done on a hot primay, where out venting will have already slowed from expansion.  It might also be possible to attach the gauge to the trans vent to see the same but this would be a much lower reading, I think since oil transfer within the main shaft would reduce the effect or slow it down so it could be seen. Primary would show it better. Testing will either rule it out or confirm a possible seal problem. It's entirely possible there are two issues in play here. An over abundance of oil around the main shaft hole for he pushrod and primary suction pulling gear oil from the box to the primary.
Ron
Not true at all ! These are brainstorming sessions mixed in with real world testing. Same thing that happens at the OEM. JMO
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on December 19, 2018, 04:34:50 PM
 Don't forget a little bit of Pixie Dust.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 19, 2018, 05:33:00 PM
Quote from: Scottr on December 19, 2018, 02:34:41 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on June 20, 2017, 09:13:19 AM
Has anyone figured out what is different between these and the last twin cam parts?
The trans and primary have been connected in this fashion for a long time, the pressures should not have changed and with the trans having the vent I would think pressure from the primary would push fluid the other direction.

I would think it is a mechanical action sending fluid down the clutch rod and that comparing parts from the previous design would show what is causing it. Anyone have pictures of some actual pieces?

The size of the primary has changed. The space to build pressure has been decreased. Hence the new slimmer primary design jmo.

:scratch:
Yes the primary size is different but it was not pressurized before and it is not pressurized now so what is the point of your post?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on December 26, 2018, 05:30:37 AM
Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.

I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 26, 2018, 05:57:30 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on December 26, 2018, 05:30:37 AM
Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.

I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on December 28, 2018, 08:39:57 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 26, 2018, 05:57:30 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on December 26, 2018, 05:30:37 AM
Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.

I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.

Maybe if 50Panhead can repeat the sumping by using full clutch action again, that might lead to a possible clue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on December 29, 2018, 05:45:36 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on December 28, 2018, 08:39:57 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 26, 2018, 05:57:30 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on December 26, 2018, 05:30:37 AM
Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.



I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.

Maybe if 50Panhead can repeat the sumping by using full clutch action again, that might lead to a possible clue.

Are you calling the oil transfer Sumping?? I thought that was a different issue with the Oil cooled models.
I'm riding a 2017 Limited just for record.
If you think about it, just how many times do you think you operate the clutch in 5000 miles. 1,000 maybe 5,000 times? I'd bet it more than that.  If just 1/2 drop of oil is pushed along the pushrod every time that adds up. There are 591.47 drop of water in a Ounce by the way.  In my way of thinking after 1000 times of of operating  the clutch one would move 1 oz of oil. In my normal ride to work I estimate I use the clutch somewhere around 70 to 80 times just to get there. It adds up faster than one thinks. The dealer has sent in my findings to HD. We are waiting to hear back from them.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on December 29, 2018, 06:51:58 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on December 29, 2018, 05:45:36 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on December 28, 2018, 08:39:57 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 26, 2018, 05:57:30 AM
Quote from: 50Panhead on December 26, 2018, 05:30:37 AM
Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.



I still say its a pumping action when depressing the clutch.

ps. the dealer just did the recall on the clutch actuator.   
They were going to forward my oil findings to the company.

It is a great theory but with one bike one time nothing is conclusive. Now add to the mix all the other bikes ridden all different ways and they still sump transfer and it becomes evident that the clutch action actually pumping the fluid through is really not a viable option.

Maybe if 50Panhead can repeat the sumping by using full clutch action again, that might lead to a possible clue.

Are you calling the oil transfer Sumping?? I thought that was a different issue with the Oil cooled models.
I'm riding a 2017 Limited just for record.
If you think about it, just how many times do you think you operate the clutch in 5000 miles. 1,000 maybe 5,000 times? I'd bet it more than that.  If just 1/2 drop of oil is pushed along the pushrod every time that adds up. There are 591.47 drop of water in a Ounce by the way.  In my way of thinking after 1000 times of of operating  the clutch one would move 1 oz of oil. In my normal ride to work I estimate I use the clutch somewhere around 70 to 80 times just to get there. It adds up faster than one thinks. The dealer has sent in my findings to HD. We are waiting to hear back from them.

You are correct, I should have said transfer not sump they are two different problems.
The rest of my statement still stands, everything you say is true but when you look at all the data you will see that bikes that transfer on the dyno do it with less than a dozen shifts and others have reported many oz's of transfer with mostly highway miles and limited shifting. For the clutch pumping theory to be the cause you would need to see a direct correlation between the number of clutch pulls and the amount of fluid transferred on most if not all bikes and there are too many cases where that does not happen.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on December 29, 2018, 07:54:34 AM
The clutch idea was tested when this first showed up, on a bike that had exhibited transfer worse than some. All he had to do to make it transfer was stay in second gear @ 50 MPH for about 10 minutes ( 5 minutes down, turn around, 5 minutes back, clutch only touched leaving the shop and pulling back in). That bike could transfer 18-20 ounces in a half hour if you wanted to.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 50Panhead on December 29, 2018, 07:47:36 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 29, 2018, 07:54:34 AM
The clutch idea was tested when this first showed up, on a bike that had exhibited transfer worse than some. All he had to do to make it transfer was stay in second gear @ 50 MPH for about 10 minutes ( 5 minutes down, turn around, 5 minutes back, clutch only touched leaving the shop and pulling back in). That bike could transfer 18-20 ounces in a half hour if you wanted to.

That is some brutal RPMs.  Oil has to be doing some serious churning.  Kind of hard to get your mind on just want is going on inside   I'll retire my idea or thoughts.    You know my old Panhead looses more oil on the ground than what these transfer.   I don't know why I'm concerned anyway.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on December 29, 2018, 09:16:07 PM
Quote from: 50Panhead on December 29, 2018, 07:47:36 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 29, 2018, 07:54:34 AM
The clutch idea was tested when this first showed up, on a bike that had exhibited transfer worse than some. All he had to do to make it transfer was stay in second gear @ 50 MPH for about 10 minutes ( 5 minutes down, turn around, 5 minutes back, clutch only touched leaving the shop and pulling back in). That bike could transfer 18-20 ounces in a half hour if you wanted to.

That is some brutal RPMs.  Oil has to be doing some serious churning.  Kind of hard to get your mind on just want is going on inside   I'll retire my idea or thoughts.    You know my old Panhead looses more oil on the ground than what these transfer.   I don't know why I'm concerned anyway.

The rpms are high in second gear at 50 mph, but it should not transfer fluid at any rpms for any amount of time. It should have other issues long before that happens.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on January 14, 2019, 05:16:09 AM
Quote from: harley_cruiser on March 11, 2018, 06:23:29 AM
I have the centrifugal seal prototype done, the long bushing goes inside the tunnel about a half inch, it's a press fit in the transmission main shaft tunnel. You can see how it is tapered down to a snug fit on the push rod. this is before it is installed in the tunnel.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1166_1_zpsvhqerjzo.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1166_1_zpsvhqerjzo.jpg.html)

The clutch push rod moves freely in the bushing, and there is enough room for it to vent, but it is snug. It is tapered from one end to the other although that is hard to see in a photo.
The short 1/4 inch bushing on the end of the shaft is a slinger that will stop the oil from migrating down the push rod into the tunnel. The short slinger is press fit on the push rod so that once installed will not move.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1169_zpsgcpj7arl.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1169_zpsgcpj7arl.jpg.html)

You can see the tapper is enough so that the slinger can go inside the tapered bushing if necessary when the clutch is depressed and give you an idea of how much the bushing is tapered.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1173_zpsok2rhg4q.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1173_zpsok2rhg4q.jpg.html)

This is what it will look like when long tapered bushing is installed in the shaft tunnel and about where the slinger would run in relation to the end of the shaft.
In theory the slinger will keep oil from moving down the push rod into the tunnel and the spinning shaft with the tapered bushing inside will push any oil out of the shaft tunnel acting as a centrifugal seal.
Here is how the centrifugal force pushes the oil back out of the main shaft tunnel.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg.html)
Just a heads up. I installed this in my bike about 500 miles ago and it is working thus far, zero transfer.

It has been on the dyno and ran very hard on the road.

I have heard of the larger diameter push rod, this is just another way to get there.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on January 14, 2019, 05:40:11 AM
A ridiculous thought bubble! Could you not solder the push rod end in the required area and machine it down to the appropriate size? Or bronze perhaps?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DTTJGlide on January 14, 2019, 08:48:16 PM
Looks good, how much was it transferring before the install?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on January 15, 2019, 08:55:36 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 14, 2019, 08:48:16 PM
Looks good, how much was it transferring before the install?
About 5oz in 1000 miles.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on January 16, 2019, 04:03:00 PM
I've just bought a '19 and have read this thread, wow, like War and Peace.

What I can't ascertain is whether the trans is pumping oil into the primary, or capillary action is drawing oil into the primary.

Assuming it's a pumping action, it's fighting the natural vent-air flow which is going in the opposite direction on the shaft.

My first mod will be to install a primary vent and primary dipstick (I made one for my Twin Cam). If the transfer of oil is worse with the primary vented its definitely pumping.

Every bike or car has their foibles, there's enough brains-trust on
HTT to lick this.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on January 16, 2019, 05:31:50 PM
 Try venting the primary drill,tap a 1/4 pipe thread. Put a hose run it up the frame and down a couple inches. That fixed mine and I been having trouble since day one, What do you have to lose a little transmission fluid.   :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 1FSTRK on January 16, 2019, 06:28:18 PM
So it is sucking air in the hose instead of trans fluid through the mainshaft, I am curious where  all that air is going?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on January 16, 2019, 06:29:53 PM
Quote from: hd06 on January 16, 2019, 05:31:50 PM
Try venting the primary drill,tap a 1/4 pipe thread. Put a hose run it up the frame and down a couple inches. That fixed mine and I been having trouble since day one, What do you have to lose a little transmission fluid.   :hyst:

I was thinking of joining my primary vent to the gearbox hat. That way I can be sure the box and primary have the same pressurisation. When I do my dyno pulls I'll put low pressure guages on both the primary and gearbox. I firstly want to eliminate gearbox turbidity as a cause.

Whilst the gearbox runs slightly less oil load than the primary, its void is way smaller and it's oil load is more viscous (if using 85W140 etc). This will cause greater turbidity and pressure build up in the gearbox than a chain rolling in 20W50.

If we can eliminate mechanical pumping or capillary transfer we've halved the search straight away...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on January 16, 2019, 08:06:20 PM
It's been my opinion from day one that the gears in the trannie are thrusting oil through the mainshaft bearing and into the slave cylinder cavity.  With few easy paths for the oil to go to get back into the trannie the easy option is through the mainshaft and into the primary.

I don't have a M8 but some of the pix I've posted indicate what I'd do if I had one.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on January 16, 2019, 08:32:33 PM
Quote from: FSG on January 16, 2019, 08:06:20 PM
It's been my opinion from day one that the gears in the trannie are thrusting oil through the mainshaft bearing and into the slave cylinder cavity.  With few easy paths for the oil to go to get back into the trannie the easy option is through the mainshaft and into the primary.

I don't have a M8 but some of the pix I've posted indicate what I'd do if I had one.

It's a decent assessment Gaz, given that very similarly engineered bikes with cable clutches didn't do it, and as far as I'm aware, Softail IIs don't do it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Billy on January 24, 2019, 01:52:27 PM
I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat :idunno:

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HD/Wrench on January 24, 2019, 03:04:35 PM
its all over FB and the guy is on one page where EVERY day he posts about how the recall is not the fix his is , it has a patent on it .. I am thinking he means patent pending ,   I have read where they claim " they who ever they are" stopped the transfer .

Test it out let me know if it really works ..
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on January 24, 2019, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: Billy on January 24, 2019, 01:52:27 PM
I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat :idunno:

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?
:hyst: Sorry , couldn't resist. I'm sure increasing the space around the tube will reduce flow.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on January 24, 2019, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 24, 2019, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: Billy on January 24, 2019, 01:52:27 PM
I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat :idunno:

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?
:hyst: Sorry , couldn't resist. I'm sure increasing the space around the tube will reduce flow.
Ron

Ron, don't feel bad, I don't get it either! :missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on January 24, 2019, 07:12:53 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on January 24, 2019, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 24, 2019, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: Billy on January 24, 2019, 01:52:27 PM
I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat :idunno:

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?
:hyst: Sorry , couldn't resist. I'm sure increasing the space around the tube will reduce flow.
Ron

Ron, don't feel bad, I don't get it either! :missed:
At least twist the damn thing into a screw so it can pretend to pull oil back into the gear box. Whoops, shouldn't give any ideas away. :doh:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Billy on January 25, 2019, 03:37:43 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on January 24, 2019, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 24, 2019, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: Billy on January 24, 2019, 01:52:27 PM
I'm mot sure how this is suppose to eliminate the transfer, guy brought it to me to install. Looks like 3/8 CRS tapered on the ends then cut flat :idunno:

Anyone have any experience with this? Thoughts?
:hyst: Sorry , couldn't resist. I'm sure increasing the space around the tube will reduce flow.
Ron

Ron, don't feel bad, I don't get it either! :missed:

Yeah, I don't get it either. It's easy enough to try, I'll take a small leap of faith (from the bottom step) and give it a shot.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on January 31, 2019, 10:09:57 AM
It seems my 2017 cvo limited is showing the same signs.
In less that 1000 miles the level went from the full mark to not showing on the dipstick.

I am confused as what the dealer is telling me verses the TA0022 bulletin:

2014-2016 shows transfer can be 5oz or more and to check in 5000 miles
2017 shows transfer should be checked in 1000 miles (no amount given, I'm assuming it's still @ 5oz or more.)
Dealer is instructed by HD to drain and measure both primary AND transmission fluids, refill to proper levels and check in 5000 miles.
Is there a newer TA than the 9-27-2017 one we see?

Anyway, bike goes in next week to get this issue started AND to fix other issues in the works.
Hate to have warranty work done on a new bike constantly.
:potstir:
I'm leery of running my bike for 5000 miles with no fluid showing on the dipstick.
:wtf:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on January 31, 2019, 01:50:30 PM
Quote from: 50Panhead on December 26, 2018, 05:30:37 AM
Just for the Record. I had 10oz transfer that was at 15,000 miles on the odometer.
Last change a month ago at 20,000 on the odometer I only had 3.5 oz transfer.
Only thing I did different is how I shift. Starting out I pull the clutch completely in.
Shifting between gears I only compress the clutch as much as it needs. Most times 1/4 to 1/3 movement of the lever.

I still say it's a pumping action when depressing the clutch....

Correct! This is as obvious as dog-doo Pan. Oil weeps into the S/C cavity and when the clutch is fully depressed the oil is pumped along the actuator shaft orifice by the S/C diaphragm and into the primary.

Oversized actuator shafts simply block this oil transfer ( the only!) passage. I can't see venting the primary as a solution. That would imply that a vacuum is developing in the primary and sucking oil down the actuator orifice, highly unlikely.

I pulled the trap-door cap/slave cylinder mount off my bike today so I can 3D map it and machine a billet version with a larger internal drain from the S/C cavity to the gearbox sump. I reckon this plus a larger gearbox hat vent will cure it.

Blocking the transfer orifice with a larger diameter rod isn't good engineering IMO. I aim to relieve the pressure differential which is causing the issue. Non-hydraulic clutch bikes don't seem to have the issue, that's the clue AFAIAC.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Oz Dan on January 31, 2019, 06:25:34 PM
 The Williams fat push rod doesn't block the main shaft......it's got a flat machined surface along its entire length to allow the primary to breath.

.......yet to hear of a single example where this fat rod didn't fix transfer issues.....seems like a winner fix to me.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on January 31, 2019, 07:55:21 PM
Quote from: Oz Dan on January 31, 2019, 06:25:34 PM
The Williams fat push rod doesn't block the main shaft......it's got a flat machined surface along its entire length to allow the primary to breathe.

I was specifically talking about oversized blocker shafts.

The only way the Williams version can be a fix is if the primary is going into vacuum (not saying this isn't so BTW)

If the primary was going into compression it'd put positive pressure on the rod orifice and stop fluid transfer.

As far as the primary 'breathing' up the rod orifice is concerned, that's unrealistic. The orifice comes to a dead-end at the S/C, the only way it can 'breathe' is through the support bearing which has a nylon seal on it from 5/18.

Not saying the product is a dud, but a technical explanation would be nice...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on January 31, 2019, 08:36:58 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 31, 2019, 07:55:21 PM
Quote from: Oz Dan on January 31, 2019, 06:25:34 PM
The Williams fat push rod doesn't block the main shaft......it's got a flat machined surface along its entire length to allow the primary to breathe.

I was specifically talking about oversized blocker shafts.

The only way the Williams version can be a fix is if the primary is going into vacuum (not saying this isn't so BTW)

If the primary was going into compression it'd put positive pressure on the rod orifice and stop fluid transfer.

As far as the primary 'breathing' up the rod orifice is concerned, that's unrealistic. The orifice comes to a dead-end at the S/C, the only way it can 'breathe' is through the support bearing which has a nylon seal on it from 5/18.

Not saying the product is a dud, but a technical explanation would be nice...

Being I'm not that familiar with the newest transmission and primary case, I can't understand how the primary can get in a vacuum and suck oil from the vented trans through the main shaft?
It was my understanding that whatever pressures build in the trans AND the primary due to heat could/would escape through the vent tube. This would indicate no pressure in either case.
What am I missing?
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on January 31, 2019, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on January 31, 2019, 08:36:58 PM

Being I'm not that familiar with the newest transmission and primary case, I can't understand how the primary can get in a vacuum and suck oil from the vented trans through the main shaft?
It was my understanding that whatever pressures build in the trans AND the primary due to heat could/would escape through the vent tube. This would indicate no pressure in either case.
What am I missing?
:nix:

Missing nothing Mike IMO. If the primary was developing pressure it'd push air along the pushrod orifice and force oil BACK into the trans. The opposite is happening, ergo, unless the primary vent mod is there to relieve vacuum it can't be doing anything.

I can see how the bigger diameter rods might help. The key IMO is eliminating oil pressure building in the S/C cavity. Pressure causes flow.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on January 31, 2019, 11:00:45 PM
Did see a post somewhere where the MoCo fix was installation of a primary vent which stopped the transfer.
Does not seem to have been implemented on a large scale.
Likely relieving vacuum in the primary but no-one has ever put a gauge on a vent to check.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on February 01, 2019, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 31, 2019, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on January 31, 2019, 08:36:58 PM

Being I'm not that familiar with the newest transmission and primary case, I can't understand how the primary can get in a vacuum and suck oil from the vented trans through the main shaft?
It was my understanding that whatever pressures build in the trans AND the primary due to heat could/would escape through the vent tube. This would indicate no pressure in either case.
What am I missing?
:nix:

Missing nothing Mike IMO. If the primary was developing pressure it'd push air along the pushrod orifice and force oil BACK into the trans. The opposite is happening, ergo, unless the primary vent mod is there to relieve vacuum it can't be doing anything.

I can see how the bigger diameter rods might help. The key IMO is eliminating oil pressure building in the S/C cavity. Pressure causes flow.


Seeing how the primary AND transmission have equal pressure (read:zero) as they share a vent to atmosphere, I would tend to believe the problem would be the slave "pumping" oil into the primary. There does not seem to be an issue with the cable clutch bikes. That is assuming that the main shaft, release rod is of similar design .
Still can't understand how the primary goes into a vacuum state while running??
:scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on February 01, 2019, 06:34:28 AM
Here is how HD has addressed it ( from the 2019 parts manuals)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on February 01, 2019, 08:09:31 AM
Just called customer service at HD, they told me to have the local dealer call and use my reference # to get some answers.
Evidently HD techs will not talk to customers directly.
:emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 01, 2019, 09:01:46 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on February 01, 2019, 06:11:57 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 31, 2019, 10:26:51 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on January 31, 2019, 08:36:58 PM

Being I'm not that familiar with the newest transmission and primary case, I can't understand how the primary can get in a vacuum and suck oil from the vented trans through the main shaft?
It was my understanding that whatever pressures build in the trans AND the primary due to heat could/would escape through the vent tube. This would indicate no pressure in either case.
What am I missing?
:nix:

Missing nothing Mike IMO. If the primary was developing pressure it'd push air along the pushrod orifice and force oil BACK into the trans. The opposite is happening, ergo, unless the primary vent mod is there to relieve vacuum it can't be doing anything.

I can see how the bigger diameter rods might help. The key IMO is eliminating oil pressure building in the S/C cavity. Pressure causes flow.


Seeing how the primary AND transmission have equal pressure (read:zero) as they share a vent to atmosphere, I would tend to believe the problem would be the slave "pumping" oil into the primary. There does not seem to be an issue with the cable clutch bikes. That is assuming that the main shaft, release rod is of similar design .
Still can't understand how the primary goes into a vacuum state while running??
:scratch:
It shouldn't. During warmup it will vent any increase in pressure from expansion through the pushrod hole and out the trans vent. During cool down the volume of air in the primary will try to contract, again letting air in from the trans vent to stabilize back to normal. If the space between the pushrod and mainshaft hole is blocked with oil, it will pull a small amount oil with it until free air exhange takes over. It will be a small amount, nowhere enough to explain the amounts posted here. So it's back to too much oil gathering around the end of the mainshaft hole for one and pumping action form the slave moving it along over to the primary. Now, if this transfer is happening without a whole lot of shifting going on, the bore machining process inside the shaft might have left a built in directional screw on the wall, constantly trying to move oil toward the primary. If oil is present at the opening, it will constantly move it along in that direction. Glad I don't have any of these issues being wet sump and integrated trans. Then again, done right, the M8s shouldn't have these issues either.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on February 01, 2019, 09:50:41 AM
Today I machined a prototype s/c housing much like the older CVO housings without an enclosed void around the end of the gearbox shaft.

I also vented the face of the diaphragm housing into the gearbox. Clutch pull is marginally different, I'll put 1000 miles and some dyno time on the mod and report back.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on February 01, 2019, 10:02:22 AM
Update: problem solved!!!

Just kidding, after calling my local dealer, the process is to get the bike in (when they have a mechanic available), drain and measure fluids from both primary and trans, fill both holes to "spec", have me ride the bike for 5000 miles, bring bike back to have them drain and measure fluids again.
If there is a change of 6oz or more, they proceed to call HD to schedule a factory rep to follow up.
We'll see how far the bike goes with just a little trans fluid,

That BMW I've been looking at is getting closer to replacing the cvo, cheaper also.

To get that mileage, I'll have to do a road trip for a few days!
Doesn't seem to me there's any urgency to fix this issue, maybe there IS no issue?

Thanks Ron for filling in some of the details on the operation of the slave to pushrod design. Still not sure why there could be a vacuum with vent clear, etc.
:emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 01, 2019, 10:20:38 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on February 01, 2019, 10:02:22 AM
Update: problem solved!!!

Just kidding, after calling my local dealer, the process is to get the bike in (when they have a mechanic available), drain and measure fluids from both primary and trans, fill both holes to "spec", have me ride the bike for 5000 miles, bring bike back to have them drain and measure fluids again.
If there is a change of 6oz or more, they proceed to call HD to schedule a factory rep to follow up.
We'll see how far the bike goes with just a little trans fluid,

That BMW I've been looking at is getting closer to replacing the cvo, cheaper also.

To get that mileage, I'll have to do a road trip for a few days!
Doesn't seem to me there's any urgency to fix this issue, maybe there IS no issue?

Thanks Ron for filling in some of the details on the operation of the slave to pushrod design. Still not sure why there could be a vacuum with vent clear, etc.
:emoGroan:
There won't be any measurable vacuum. It will vent from the trans making it impossible as long as the trans vent  is clear. Think of the expansion from heat or cooling down as more of an air exchange. It happens so slowly, there would be no readings with a gauge hooked up. It amazes me how this cluster fk can go on so long with the company. Sumping too. Almost like they are purposely trying to weasel out of looking after their customers. Wouldn't be the first time. Cranks and compensators as previous examples.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on February 01, 2019, 11:18:10 AM
But they finally fixed the compensator problem all on their own, so I have faith that they will solve these problems on their own and without an outcry from dissatisfied customers...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on February 01, 2019, 11:37:39 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on February 01, 2019, 11:18:10 AM
But they finally fixed the compensator problem all on their own, so I have faith that they will solve these problems on their own and without an outcry from dissatisfied customers...
No comment.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 01, 2019, 06:23:56 PM
  Venting the primary and problem solves the problem. [attach=0]  [attach=1]  [attach=2]   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 01, 2019, 06:28:45 PM
  This is where the vent was put. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on February 01, 2019, 07:54:57 PM
Was this a mod done by Harley?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 02, 2019, 01:35:12 AM
 Yes, Harley Rep. at a bike rally, I gave him my reference number he looked it up 13 times it's been in the shop for transfer problems. He took it in to dealer shop and put it on. He said he's had 100 % success. Problem solved no fix it kits or odd shaped clutch push rods. It didn't cost my a dime. This the only problem I've had on this bike 9/23/16 was the first noted problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on February 02, 2019, 05:29:33 AM
I have my ref # and have to go through the "official procedure " according to the dealer.
I still can't believe that this solves the problem but if that works, I'll be glad to put this behind me.

Did you get any information as why your bike was having this issue to begin with?

It goes against my limited logic how this all works.
:scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 02, 2019, 12:29:09 PM
 I didn't ask but when you complain to a rep when he is trying to to push a new bike on customers it got some attention. I had this M8 for 2 years and I can't get this transfer problem fixed had the papers in my hand. That got some people attention. I didn't think that would fix it but it did and I'm a happy camper. You could fix it yourself just drill and tap it could try a smaller hose if need be but I'm happy just the way it is.   Good Luck
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on February 03, 2019, 05:33:18 AM
Interesting you mentioned fighting this for 2 years, feedback from our SM and GM yesterday is having me rethink waiting up to 10K miles to address this issue.
This comes from the factory rep on a couple of other bikes like mine.

We have lemon laws in this state, my last go around had to deal with the front brakes (safety related).

If there is no resolution in a timely fashion there may be a new bike in my life soon. I'm not willing to have issues when I do my annual long rides.

My patience is wearing thin.

:horse:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 03, 2019, 08:25:37 AM
     If I knew this would fix my bike I would have done it the first time it transferred. I would put a smaller vent tube on it, May do that later but it's fixed.     
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HV on February 03, 2019, 08:37:59 AM
The only questions I would have is.....where does the end of the hose go ? up high ? is there a filter of any kind on it to keep dirt or rain water out ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on February 03, 2019, 08:43:29 AM
I don't know if I would get too excited about dirt or water entering the vent. I suppose you could put a vent on the end of the hose like they do for cars.
(https://www.opgi-static.com/common/C220128-lrg.jpg?v=61620151142)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 02roadcling on February 03, 2019, 09:07:02 AM
Quote from: hd06 on February 03, 2019, 08:25:37 AM
     If I knew this would fix my bike I would have done it the first time it transferred. I would put a smaller vent tube on it, May do that later but it's fixed.   

Remember our motto: Keep fixing it until it breaks again.

   cling
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 03, 2019, 10:16:49 AM
It goes up the frame then turn down about 2" to keep crap out. You could put a small inline gas filter on it but I left mine open.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on February 08, 2019, 05:05:46 PM
For the life of me I can't see how making it easier for fluid to enter the primary can solve the issue. This venting gig doesn't make sense to me. If anyone can offer a sound engineering/physics based opinion on how venting might work I'm all ears...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 08, 2019, 06:19:54 PM
 I was a bigger skeptic than you are now the rep. said this would fix it. It's fixed I put 860 miles on my 17 RGS and there's been no transfer. Now give me a engineering/physics based opinion why some bikes will transfer and some will not. Look man all I can say is this fix my bike. I have not found any one that put vent on and didn't work except a guy on another forum said a guy in Germany but I don't peek german. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on February 08, 2019, 06:44:52 PM
Quote from: hd06 on February 08, 2019, 06:19:54 PM...Now give me a engineering/physics based opinion why some bikes will transfer and some will not...

Riding style, gearbox fill level, gearbox oil type, primary oil level, hyd/cable clutch, RPMs, gear selection, road speed, cornering angle, gearbox temp, clutch actuation depth, slave cylinder diaphragm sealing, carrier bearing oil deflector seal.

Enough variables?

The ONLY way a primary vent can be a cure is if the primary void is going into vacuum. Easy enough to check. Not saying it doesn't work and vacuum isn't the reason though, but...any engineer (well maybe not the MoCo's) will attest that oil turbidity and conducted heat will both create positive pressure in a void, not vacuum.

I'm stoked it worked for you HD06, but the Engineer in me wants an answer.

It's TOTALLY possible that the heat and oil turbidity in the Primary makes the air void heat and expand, venting through the gear shaft, then as RPMs drop and the primary cools, the shrinking void creates a vacuum and sucks gearbox oil into the primary.

That theory would explain why transfer commonly occurs during dyno pulls...

I cured mine with a air-bleed hole in the gear shaft and a tight-fitting bullet cap on the S/C side of the actuator rod. I know 'where' the oil is flowing, 'why' is the issue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 08, 2019, 07:03:30 PM
 Maddo Snr,  Do you have a transfer problem?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 08, 2019, 08:05:33 PM
  Maddo Snr,   I didn't catch that bottom part of your reply how you fixed your problem, Sorry my bad. There something different about this new setup that has everybody scratching heads. This was done by a Harley rep. so will not hit my extended warranty if there is a problem with my trans. later down the road.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on February 09, 2019, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: hd06 on February 08, 2019, 07:03:30 PM
Maddo Snr,  Do you have a transfer problem?

Not on the road 06, only on the dyno. It raised the primary oil level by 1.5mm over 20 or so pulls. Last session (after mods) it didn't budge.

I'm starting to think that the primary IS going into temporary vacuum and sucking trans oil. Keen observers will note the 20% reduction in trans oil volume between TwinCams and M8s. My hunch is the MoCo were well aware of the issue during testing and dropped the oil level to get it under the shaft centres.

Thing is, filter-venting the primary can do no harm IMO, it's cheap and simple, I'm going to run one.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 10, 2019, 07:29:42 AM
  It must be a vacuum problem. My bike been in shop 13 times for this problem. Harley MoCo thought it was a crank seat, which was replaced and no change.     
  I think there is more M8's out there with this problem. I asked a lot HD dealers about it and there is a pause then they say, oh we had a few.  My local service department told me I was the only one that has this problem. I talked to a salesman one time he said this is a problem we are having with M8's, he's a pretty cool guy. This the problem I had with my bike.                                                                       
  When I talk to Harley rep. at a bike rally and he saw how many times it's been in 5 different shops. He had the solution and put the vent tube on. I haven't had any transfer problems since. This will not ding my extended warranty later down the road. It's a cheap fix. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 10, 2019, 10:04:45 AM
 Typing problem, That's crankshaft seal left side.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on February 10, 2019, 02:58:09 PM
Also 06, the primary void was drastically reduced for the M8, increasing the chance of pressure gain (and subsequently going into vacuum after the pressure event). The primary oil-fill was dropped by 10%...(1124ml to 1000ml) but the air volume decreased dramatically.

Also, filling the primary with the MoCo's prescribed fill-volume (1000ml) creates an oil level WAY above (4mm- 3/16") the MoCo's own specified fill height (bottom of pressure plate)

Next dyno pull I do I'll stick a recording Vac/Pressure sensor on the primary and see what's going on.

One last thing 06, do you think the MoCo know darn-well what the problem is but don't want to lose face fixing $40K bikes with a $2 mod? There's something fishy going on here when the Tech Rep knows exactly the right cure off the top of his head...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 10, 2019, 04:08:48 PM
 Yes,I don't know why I had to go through so much crap to get my bike fix. If I knew this would fix my bike I would have done it a long time ago myself no questions asked. I would like to know the results.    Thanks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: lonegoosehonking on February 12, 2019, 12:44:14 PM
Is that an 1/8" NPT fitting into the primary? What size hose / barb ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borno on February 12, 2019, 01:39:36 PM
Why not use a breather vent plug, like on a gearbox?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 12, 2019, 04:38:10 PM
   Yes  1/8 NPT
     I don't know about the breather plug, The Harley rep. put it on he ran the hose up the side of the frame across the top and down the other side about 3". I don't think it has to be that long but I know it works.   Good luck
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 12, 2019, 04:51:25 PM
 Hose is 1/4 it fits snug on the fitting
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: lonegoosehonking on February 13, 2019, 10:12:19 AM
Thanks for the information.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 14, 2019, 12:29:47 AM
     :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hilly13 on February 14, 2019, 04:35:06 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on February 10, 2019, 02:58:09 PM
Also 06, the primary void was drastically reduced for the M8, increasing the chance of pressure gain (and subsequently going into vacuum after the pressure event). The primary oil-fill was dropped by 10%...(1124ml to 1000ml) but the air volume decreased dramatically.

Also, filling the primary with the MoCo's prescribed fill-volume (1000ml) creates an oil level WAY above (4mm- 3/16") the MoCo's own specified fill height (bottom of pressure plate)

Next dyno pull I do I'll stick a recording Vac/Pressure sensor on the primary and see what's going on.

One last thing 06, do you think the MoCo know darn-well what the problem is but don't want to lose face fixing $40K bikes with a $2 mod? There's something fishy going on here when the Tech Rep knows exactly the right cure off the top of his head...
Maddo I'd be interested to hear what you find out re vacuum. The fat rod might be a band-aid in this.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on February 14, 2019, 05:40:38 PM
Quote from: Hilly13 on February 14, 2019, 04:35:06 AM
Maddo I'd be interested to hear what you find out re vacuum. The fat rod might be a band-aid in this.

I'm tuning a pretty warm 114 next week which has transferred since it was new.

I've made a primary vent using all KTM genuine parts (crank-vent spigot and fuel breather hose with one-way valve).

I'll do the pulls with and without the mod. The mod will force the primary to vent through the cross-shaft but breathe in through the vent hose.

The pressure/vac gauge will tell the story in two seconds...I'll drop a couple of O'rings onto the cross-shaft to seal the primary first.

I'm not a fan of the fat-rod idea, it's (partially?) sealing a void that is designed to be vented. It is obviously placing greater stress on the sealing gaskets...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on February 15, 2019, 01:12:28 AM
 Looks like you have your ducks lined up.    :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rudi_ufg on February 24, 2019, 02:07:45 AM
air vent filters work bi-directionally

https://skarke.de/en/products/air-vent-filters/air-vent-filter-series-bef-bed
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 01, 2019, 09:59:38 PM
Quote from: rudi_ufg on February 24, 2019, 02:07:45 AM
air vent filters work bi-directionally

https://skarke.de/en/products/air-vent-filters/air-vent-filter-series-bef-bed

MX bike vent valves certainly do not.

I used a YZ250 vent hose and valve attached to a KTM250SX flange.

To test we used a new primary gasket with Hylomar coating both sides and sealed the cross-shaft vent with 2x O'rings

On the dyno we saw the primary air pressure get to 5/6 psi and after bleeding it developed 8-9" of vac.

We've fitted the mod to the problem bike and it's done 500 miles now with the primary level sitting constant at 1/2" below the derby hole notch.

One bike proves very little but it was a bad transferer.

As an aside...I did a viscosity test on a new container of Formula+ and it tested 75W at 77 degrees F. I thought it was 50W?

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 02, 2019, 02:03:10 AM
    :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on March 02, 2019, 06:01:50 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 01, 2019, 09:59:38 PM
Quote from: rudi_ufg on February 24, 2019, 02:07:45 AM
air vent filters work bi-directionally

https://skarke.de/en/products/air-vent-filters/air-vent-filter-series-bef-bed

MX bike vent valves certainly do not.

I used a YZ250 vent hose and valve attached to a KTM250SX flange.

To test we used a new primary gasket with Hylomar coating both sides and sealed the cross-shaft vent with 2x O'rings

On the dyno we saw the primary air pressure get to 5/6 psi and after bleeding it developed 8-9" of vac.

We've fitted the mod to the problem bike and it's done 500 miles now with the primary level sitting constant at 1/2" below the derby hole notch.

One bike proves very little but it was a bad transferer.

As an aside...I did a viscosity test on a new container of Formula+ and it tested 75W at 77 degrees F. I thought it was 50W?


How do you feel about the pressure readings that you've found?  Are they in line with what you thought you'd find, or are the different?

Also, what do you mean by "after bleeding".

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogsty on March 03, 2019, 12:20:44 PM
You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on March 03, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
If venting is the fix why has this issue been so prevalent with the M8 hydraulic clutch bikes and not other/older models? Just curious.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 03, 2019, 12:53:28 PM
  Maddo Snr just curious If you put a vacuum gage in place of the vent on the transmission when you do the pulls on a dyno if there is a vacuum. Thinking if so this could be when the transfer is taking place.   Just a thought   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 03, 2019, 04:11:02 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on March 03, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
If venting is the fix why has this issue been so prevalent with the M8 hydraulic clutch bikes and not other/older models? Just curious.

The manual clutch has a void of about 200cc  in the hollow door cover which would act as an attenuator to vac/pressure fluctuations. The hyd clutch's diaphragm design actuality seals the RHS of the venting valley directly to the gearboxes' oil load.

Why older hyd clutches didn't transfer seems to be down to the design of the S/C housing which didn't directly seal the cross-shaft void to the oil load. It vented a lot better is my assessment.

I have a RSD hyd cover and S/C on order which I'll fit to the M8 and test. That'll prove whether the older design negates the issue.

On my own bike, as well as HD06s vent kit I've also milled a bleed path from the gearbox side of the S/C housing directly to the gearboxes' air void. The intention being that if the primary does go into vacuum, it sucks air rather than oil.

HD06: I left the box vent standard during testing so as to not affect the test. The box vent sits above the gearboxes' oil load. The transfer is occurring out of the oil load with the void above at atmo. I seriously doubt that gearbox pressure is an issue. There's a sizeable air void in the box and it's vented to atmo.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on March 03, 2019, 04:49:31 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 03, 2019, 04:11:02 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on March 03, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
If venting is the fix why has this issue been so prevalent with the M8 hydraulic clutch bikes and not other/older models? Just curious.

The manual clutch has a void of about 200cc  in the hollow door cover which would act as an attenuator to vac/pressure fluctuations. The hyd clutch's diaphragm design actuality seals the RHS of the venting valley directly to the gearboxes' oil load.

Why older hyd clutches didn't transfer seems to be down to the design of the S/C housing which didn't directly seal the cross-shaft void to the oil load. It vented a lot better is my assessment.

I have a RSD hyd cover and S/C on order which I'll fit to the M8 and test. That'll prove whether the older design negates the issue.

On my own bike, as well as HD06s vent kit I've also milled a bleed path from the gearbox side of the S/C housing directly to the gearboxes' air void. The intention being that if the primary does go into vacuum, it sucks air rather than oil.

HD06: I left the box vent standard during testing so as to not affect the test. The box vent sits above the gearboxes' oil load. The transfer is occurring out of the oil load with the void above at atmo. I seriously doubt that gearbox pressure is an issue. There's a sizeable air void in the box and it's vented to atmo.
Thanks for the explanation. Always something to learn from you guys.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 03, 2019, 06:03:42 PM
 Thanks for the follow up.   :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 03, 2019, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: hogsty on March 03, 2019, 12:20:44 PM
You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.

Exactly. 

p.s. My vent isn't ugly, it's hardly visible against the crinkle-black primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 04, 2019, 07:26:38 PM
 It looks to be part of the bike, not a add on.    :beer:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogsty on March 05, 2019, 09:32:12 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 03, 2019, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: hogsty on March 03, 2019, 12:20:44 PM
You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.

Exactly. 

p.s. My vent isn't ugly, it's hardly visible against the crinkle-black primary.

That setup looks great.   Is is venting to the ground?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 05, 2019, 10:11:25 AM
Quote from: hogsty on March 05, 2019, 09:32:12 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 03, 2019, 08:39:24 PM
Quote from: hogsty on March 03, 2019, 12:20:44 PM
You may want to ask your mate about thermal expansion of the fluid as well. 

The direction this thread has taken seems like the most plausible explanation, especially given that a Harley rep knew it off the top of his head.  If this is indeed the solution I would prefer a more pretty setup, with a painted 90 degree fitting or something.

Exactly. 

p.s. My vent isn't ugly, it's hardly visible against the crinkle-black primary.

That setup looks great.   Is is venting to the ground?

No, that'd suck dust/moisture into the primary. It goes to a black fish-tank air-line filter tucked away under the ignition packs.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rudi_ufg on March 06, 2019, 05:53:20 AM
Quote from: rudi_ufg on February 24, 2019, 02:07:45 AM
air vent filters work bi-directionally

https://skarke.de/en/products/air-vent-filters/air-vent-filter-series-bef-bed

In the meantime I got the information from the manufacturer where it can be ordered: http://www.ganter-griff.de (sorry it's a German address)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: MakoHD on March 06, 2019, 11:41:23 AM
seen it bunch of times the fix to it is Macomb county choppers 586 935 7433. its fatter clutch rod that doesn't allow the oil to sneak through the main shaft. its like $70.00 with shipping. I works, its proven...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on March 06, 2019, 11:56:39 AM
Quote from: MakoHD on March 06, 2019, 11:41:23 AM
seen it bunch of times the fix to it is Macomb county choppers 586 935 7433. its fatter clutch rod that doesn't allow the oil to sneak through the main shaft. its like $70.00 with shipping. I works, its proven...

a band-aid

(https://i.imgur.com/WwrvHf9.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 06, 2019, 12:06:06 PM
Quote from: MakoHD on March 06, 2019, 11:41:23 AM
seen it bunch of times the fix to it is Macomb county choppers 586 935 7433. its fatter clutch rod that doesn't allow the oil to sneak through the main shaft. its like $70.00 with shipping. I works, its proven...

MCCs fat rod; a) has an air passage at least as large in volume as the stock set-up when taking the machined-flat into account,  b) has no way of controlling rotation of the flat, and, c) has no technical explanation of the nature of the fault or how it can work.

'Proof' in engineering. involves identification of the fault and a sound technical explanation of how the revision achieves its aims.

Not saying it doesn't work...but if it does, and there's a sound engineering explanation of WHY it does, MCC would be doing themselves a huge favour by letting customers know.

There's north of 350,000 bikes affected, if MCC sold every one of those bike owners a $70 fix they'd be $24Million in the black.  :up:

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 06, 2019, 12:54:57 PM
I have a 2019 transferring trans oil. Other Harleys I have bought new over the past 18 years...if it is a safety issue they will admit and repair. Problems other than safety issues they don't hardly ever admit and tell dealers to reply they don't know of a problem. When I bought my bike 2.7.19 the salesman assured me the sumping and trans oil transfer were resolved on the 19 bikes. Well...that wasn't true. I have experienced several of their design flaws over the years and the results of their actions. They correct production bikes but don't have any interest in  sold bikes. Waiting is not a option for me...I already know what I won't get from them. So...I have installed the vent from this thread that appears to be working for others...of course it will take some miles for me to get the results. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: MakoHD on March 06, 2019, 01:35:24 PM
I've had over 5 bikes sump, including my bike 2019 cvo and my uncles bike 2019 cvo. both sumped several times. what I did to fix these two was i installed S&S oil pump kit. its been 5,000 miles since they each sumped with stock pumps. and those were the updated version with the seal up against the crank bearing.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hammerhandle on March 06, 2019, 10:22:58 PM
When I purchased my 19 FLTRXS i knew there was a sumping possibility, so I got it to the 1k mark and knew to kiss the warranty bye bye after that, by properly voiding the warranty with non harley parts.

Yet i didnt know about them still transferring, i thought that was solved with the 18's, and after reading all 52 pages, and getting my hopes up reading posts, then being let down with some solutions only minimizing the issue.

I was hoping MCC's part would have been the easy simple fix after seeing that advertised, but according to you guys that seems to be snake oil.

Is that primary vent the end all be all for the issue, and is physically plugging the push rod a must do? with 52 pages and 3 MYs I was hoping things kinda came to a valid rock solid conclusion, but Maddo Snr, i didnt notice if you mentioned (or i missed it, it was late and more than 3 days ago lol) how many miles you had trouble free with that vent system.

Note: I may not even have the issue, didnt notice any loss, and my dealer didnt note it on the 1K miles service before they stored it for me.

sorry, newbie q's, things went back and forth in this long thread, just trying to clarify for myself.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 06, 2019, 11:16:58 PM
Quote from: Hammerhandle on March 06, 2019, 10:22:58 PM
...Maddo Snr, i didnt notice if you mentioned (or i missed it, it was late and more than 3 days ago lol) how many miles you had trouble free with that vent system...

HH, my own bike has gone 1100 miles since the mods and the transferring has stopped dead. I'll ask the other owners, one has gone more than one service interval (5000 miles)
I pop the derby off once per week and measure primary oil height with a vernier caliper.
It has stayed spot-on 12mm below the bottom of the notch.
I also run the box oil at the bottom of the dipstick 'X' when on a lift.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 07, 2019, 02:29:08 AM
  Welcome to the forum HH as for the transfer problem. I had this problem since day 1 that's 2 years. It's been in the shop 13 times for transfer problem. When a Harley Rep. at a bike rally put the vent on it solved transfer problem.         
   As for as your Harley dealer didn't note the transfer problem. I was told by 3 different mechanics only ones I asked they just drain fluids and refill.
  You asked about plugging the head vents I wouldn't do that. I put the DK customs catch can on mine to keep the water vapor and oil mist out of the combustion chamber.
  The oil tank vent line kit looks to be working on some bikes that has a sumping problems and I will put one on mine if I have that problem. Hope this help.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 07, 2019, 10:29:35 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 06, 2019, 11:16:58 PM
Quote from: Hammerhandle on March 06, 2019, 10:22:58 PM
...Maddo Snr, i didnt notice if you mentioned (or i missed it, it was late and more than 3 days ago lol) how many miles you had trouble free with that vent system...

HH, my own bike has gone 1100 miles since the mods and the transferring has stopped dead. I'll ask the other owners, one has gone more than one service interval (5000 miles)
I pop the derby off once per week and measure primary oil height with a vernier caliper.
It has stayed spot-on 12mm below the bottom of the notch.
I also run the box oil at the bottom of the dipstick 'X' when on a lift.

did you do anything else other than the vent?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hammerhandle on March 07, 2019, 11:24:28 PM
Quote from: hd06 on March 07, 2019, 02:29:08 AMYou asked about plugging the head vents I wouldn't do that.

Not the head vents, I was referring to the pushrod, i didnt know if something needed to be plugged/sealed there in addition to the primary vent

Maddo, in your photo the vent seems to be near where the chain might be slinging oil, any "oil blow by" issues at all? have you had to swap out or service the filter?

Not that you couldnt rig a system yourself, but i wonder if Tmans new crankcase vent kit would work just as good for the primary vent
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 09, 2019, 05:32:30 AM
Had a nice chat with our SM at the dealership where I purchased my new bike.
Due to the fact that an oil transfer issue happens in the first 200 miles, the dealership and Harley customer care seems to be a little more involved getting a "fix" in place.
I purchased this bike at this time due to some long rides already booked in the next 3 months and there is NO reason for me to expect NOT to be able to take a brand new 40k+ bike on an extended ride.

I came very close to the BMW, but decided to trust my dealership who says this is the first of the 2019 cvo s that has had this issue.
We agreed on a target date to open things up this Tuesday and verify that the latest parts are in the bike, if not, the latest upgrades from the production line should be in the mechanics hand. Plan B will probably be the primary vent that seems to be working for others.

Dealership drained and measured fluids from primary and trans and refilled to specs.
I'll be riding today and will check the trans level when I get back to see how much the level changes. Updates will be coming in the next few days.
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 09, 2019, 01:23:53 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 07, 2019, 10:29:35 AM

did you do anything else other than the vent?

Not in the customer bike we dyno tested, just the vent.

My own bike was cured by milling a vent-valley between the inside of the S/C housing and the gearboxes' air void.

Both mods do the same thing though, they create an air path for the primary to suck air rather than oil and stop the S/C cavity from developing oil pressure. No suck, no blow = no transfer.

. I did add HD06s vent mod to my own bike for good measure.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: jls 64 on March 09, 2019, 01:50:20 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 09, 2019, 01:23:53 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 07, 2019, 10:29:35 AM

did you do anything else other than the vent?

Not in the customer bike we dyno tested, just the vent.

My own bike was cured by milling a vent-valley between the inside of the S/C housing and the gearboxes' air void.

Both mods do the same thing though, they create an air path for the primary to suck air rather than oil and stop the S/C cavity from developing oil pressure. No suck, no blow = no transfer.

. I did add HD06s vent mod to my own bike for good measure.
Maddo snr do you have a picture.?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 09, 2019, 01:58:19 PM
Quote from: jls 64 on March 09, 2019, 01:50:20 PM
Maddo snr do you have a picture.?

No, we were pushed for time and I forgot. I have the HAAS milling software for the mod if anyone wants it.

Its a 10mm wide valley milled to the depth where the dome joins the edge and at 30 degrees off vertical, radial from centre.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 10, 2019, 04:41:33 PM
Latest update from "reply 1299" above:

Dealer drained and measured oil from trans and primary
Refilled to factory levels and sent me on my way,

Had a short club ride yesterday about 130 miles.
Got home let the bike cool down, pulled the trans dip stick and no oil showing.
Dropped my trusty pencil in the hole and had some oil on the eraser about 1/4"
Let the SM know this is not going to work for me and the bike will be there Tuesday AM.
He assured me the parts will be there that they will possibly need.
Stay tuned for further updates!
i am slowing loosing my confidence in Harley-Davidson and my patience is very thin at this point
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 96349 on March 10, 2019, 04:58:48 PM
Countless other owners have experienced what you describe since the M8s were introduced in August of 2016 as 2017 models. The  migration primarily affects only touring bikes that have hydraulic clutches. The MOCO has made numerous attempts from time to time to fix the issue but none of them have worked so far. In short,  they refuse to spend the money to  actually come up with a fix. Threatening them does no good. The dealers are just as frustrated as you are but they have no recourse. In short, nobody actually can prove what is happening to cause the migration. My solution is to never by their half assed engineered products again. Everybody is different though. The people who drink the kool-aid everyday think it is heresy to suggest that you boycott the bastards. I might be old but I am not stupid.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on March 10, 2019, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: 96349 on March 10, 2019, 04:58:48 PM
Countless other owners have experienced what you describe since the M8s were introduced in August of 2016 as 2017 models. The  migration primarily affects only touring bikes that have hydraulic clutches. The MOCO has made numerous attempts from time to time to fix the issue but none of them have worked so far. In short,  they refuse to spend the money to  actually come up with a fix. Threatening them does no good. The dealers are just as frustrated as you are but they have no recourse. In short, nobody actually can prove what is happening to cause the migration. My solution is to never by their half assed engineered products again. Everybody is different though. The people who drink the kool-aid everyday think it is heresy to suggest that you boycott the bastards. I might be old but I am not stupid.
You need to do a bit more reading.
There appear to be at least two fixes that I have seen reported and tested, not by the MoCo but by others.
Fixes which have been based on understanding and analysis of the cause.
Certainly does not put the MoCo in a better light but speaks to the dedication and commitment of some who want to continue the journey with a HD motorcycle.
I'll stick with my Evo and TC for the time being though.  :teeth:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 10, 2019, 06:25:43 PM
 Go to page 50, 1242 that what fixed mine 2 years of transfer, check it out.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 10, 2019, 06:50:24 PM
Quote from: hd06 on March 10, 2019, 06:25:43 PM
Go to page 50, 1242 that what fixed mine 2 years of transfer, check it out.

We saw that and it seems to have worked for some but I'm getting conflicted info as to the CAUSE of the vacuum in the first place! Pumping action from the s/c through the pushrod does not seem logical to transfer 21 oz in about an hour or two with mostly freeway miles.
This is a brand new bike and I take it easy for the break in. 2000-3000 rpm, no lugging, etc etc. not my first rodeo.

I'll let the dealer do his "cure" before I try anything else.
Warranty is the issue with a bike one week old and only 300 miles!
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bike31 on March 11, 2019, 12:10:41 AM
HD delivering MC to Dealer who delivers to Owner>>>Then the Owner has to walk it back via warranty. All a downhill operation and everyone uphill knows it's a potential problem but sales are part of their business plan, so on it goes. Why bother to solve their problem?

My '18 FLDE has been ok so far but the first time it takes a dump I'm done.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 11, 2019, 01:59:15 AM
 This is warranty work a Harley Rep. done it himself at a bike rally. Where your going I've been. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: vetteandharley on March 11, 2019, 07:40:58 AM
  Just purchased a 2017 Road Glide Special which I believe after checking the transmission fluid may have the transfer issue.
I'll have to do a little more monitoring but if so I intend to try hd06's cure.  Thanks for posting!!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: CarlosGGodfrog on March 11, 2019, 08:09:15 AM
If venting the primary does the trick (pg 50 #1242) why not just put a vent in the primary cover ? You could even plumb a line to the A/C to create a positive vent.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 11, 2019, 04:45:17 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 10, 2019, 06:50:24 PM
Quote from: hd06 on March 10, 2019, 06:25:43 PM
Go to page 50, 1242 that what fixed mine 2 years of transfer, check it out.

We saw that and it seems to have worked for some but I'm getting conflicted info as to the CAUSE of the vacuum in the first place...

Hi Mike. After many hours of testing lots of variables on both dyno and road, here's my summation. I believe the primary is sucking oil from the gearbox.

These things all make the issue worse:
A) RPMs over 3000
B) gearbox oil heights above the bottom of the 'X' on the dipstick (bike level on stand)
C) thick primary lubricants
D) high primary oil levels
E) OEM slave cylinder

I tested a known problem bike with 80W140 in the trans (bottom of 'X'), 15W40 full syn in the primary (1/2" under fill notch in derby) and keeping under 2500rpm. Problem gone!

The 'fix' is to somehow kill the fluid transfer by extra air-bleeds in the S/C housing, a primary vent or a AIM light-force S/C. All seem to work.

The MoCo seems fixated on achieving a fix by disrupting the capillary through constant mods to the S/C diaphragm/piston, they're up to their THIRD version of the same part now. 

As to the exact nature of what's happening?

I believe that at (US) freeway RPMs the primary oil cavitates/aerates and expands, which decreases the air volume in the primary, which vents to the box. As revs fall the vacuum in the primary acts on the uninterrupted oil path to the box and sucks oil.

This would explain why the MCC fat-rod works...its machined flat is of a big enough volume to open the capillary...

My main issue now is testing, none of the owners whose bikes we've cured will let's us put them back to OEM so we can test.  :SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 11, 2019, 05:32:35 PM
Maddo Snr was the vent groove you machined in your side cover at the top or bottom?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 11, 2019, 06:20:59 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 11, 2019, 05:32:35 PM
Maddo Snr was the vent groove you machined in your side cover at the top or bottom?

Top. In the pic below you can see the reason. The milled passage connects the cross-shaft end to the vent hole between and above the gear shafts.

I'll pull it off and take a pic next service OB.
The mod is a 10mm wide routed passage, radially from the centre, 30 degrees off vertical toward the front of the bike. I milled it down until its depth was where the dome met the side casting.

It's no great science, it just connects the cross shaft void to the gearbox void. Pressure can no longer build in the S/C void as its now vented to the box void, similarly, it that point goes into vac it sucks air from the box void, not oil.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 11, 2019, 06:42:25 PM
Here's a better pic OB.

You can see the dome on the outer cover and how it seals the S/C cavity. Where the dome meets the edge is my machined depth.

With OEM slaves I also drill a 1/8"" hole through to the other side to relieve the pressure from box oil which has seeped into the cavity on the other side. (This is where the OEM seals split BTW)

With AIM slaves there's no need as the area around the cross-shaft end is open, not sealed as per OEM.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on March 11, 2019, 07:00:37 PM
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1159741#msg1159741
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 12, 2019, 05:40:01 AM
Thanks all for the detailed explanations WHY all this is happening in the first place.
The thing that gets me is the factory is aware of it and as yet has no cure and expecting us to just "ride it" for another "5000 miles" and "check oil levels" again!
When the cost (to the factory) gets too much having to replace damaged transmissions they will then have a fix. I would have to believe they are past that!

My bike goes in today, my healer promised to do all the checks, parts, etc to get this issue fixed today. If not, and the next 100 miles shows no change I'll have to take to next step. Not a good option as I really like the bike and the color.
I'll be updating as time progresses.
:emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on March 12, 2019, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?
That's too clever an observation for your first post. :wink:
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on March 12, 2019, 11:26:46 AM
Quote from: rbabos on March 12, 2019, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?
That's too clever an observation for your first post. :wink:
Ron

Keep an eye on him. This new guy is gonna be trouble with posts like that! :hyst:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 12:52:56 PM
Uh oh, I'm causing trouble already...

Back on topic, perhaps the MoCo thought the gap was enough. I'm sure more space there can't hurt since they weren't trying to seal it anyway.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 12:58:06 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 12:52:56 PM
Uh oh, I'm causing trouble already...

Back on topic, perhaps the MoCo thought the gap was enough. I'm sure more space there can't hurt since they weren't trying to seal it anyway.

Exactly! And the logic behind milling a bleed path...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 01:07:13 PM
Just trying to understand the issues. My dealer called this morning to say that my own RG/M8 is being built this week. I have an AIM Light Force sitting here waiting for me to install once the bike is home.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 12, 2019, 02:55:07 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...

It's a shame we have to go through all the steps one by one then the dealership calls MOCO to get a RO # for the NEXT step.
Seems to me to do "one and done."
Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?

The little white plastic "sleeve" that fits over the clutch release rod is a very loose fit on the rod will have some play. Mine had that from the factory but still has the issue. The new  sleeve is also a sloppy fit on the shaft, probably to avert any resistance along the clutch system.
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 12, 2019, 03:24:47 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 12, 2019, 02:55:07 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...

It's a shame we have to go through all the steps one by one then the dealership calls MOCO to get a RO # for the NEXT step.
Seems to me to do "one and done."
Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?

The little white plastic "sleeve" that fits over the clutch release rod is a very loose fit on the rod will have some play. Mine had that from the factory but still has the issue. The new  sleeve is also a sloppy fit on the shaft, probably to avert any resistance along the clutch system.
:nix:

my 2019 was made 11/18...it didn't have the white plastic sleeve...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 12, 2019, 03:38:12 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...

I miked a used gasket I removed...it was .019 thick...that is not much of a gap between the side cover and the transmission...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 12, 2019, 04:29:19 PM
[
[/quote]

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...
[/quote]

It's a shame we have to go through all the steps one by one then the dealership calls MOCO to get a RO # for the NEXT step.
Seems to me to do "one and done."
Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?

The little white plastic "sleeve" that fits over the clutch release rod is a very loose fit on the rod will have some play. Mine had that from the factory but still has the issue. The new  sleeve is also a sloppy fit on the shaft, probably to avert any resistance along the clutch system.
:nix:
[/quote]

my 2019 was made 11/18...it didn't have the white plastic sleeve...
[/quote]

My build date was 1/19. I was told it was a running change and if you have this issue dealer will check to see if the plastic sleeve is installed. If not they will install it under an RO number from Harley.
:scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 06:00:08 PM
Hogmike: "Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?"

Yep, it makes sense to me. They've constantly modified the S/C diaphragm (3 times) and the oil deflector (3 versions) in an attempt to create a system where air can flow both ways but oil can't flow one way. They've focused on one area of the system (not with much success).

None of their 'fixes' break the oil passage and interrupt hydraulic flow. I fitted an AIM S/C to a new FLHX yesterday and noticed that the latest oil deflector perfectly clears the AIM push-cup. That was very thoughtful of the MoCo...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 12, 2019, 07:12:04 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 06:00:08 PM
Hogmike: "Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?"

Yep, it makes sense to me. They've constantly modified the S/C diaphragm (3 times) and the oil deflector (3 versions) in an attempt to create a system where air can flow both ways but oil can't flow one way. They've focused on one area of the system (not with much success).

None of their 'fixes' break the oil passage and interrupt hydraulic flow. I fitted an AIM S/C to a new FLHX yesterday and noticed that the latest oil deflector perfectly clears the AIM push-cup. That was very thoughtful of the MoCo...

Ya know they always try to please their customers!
:potstir: :baby:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 11:20:49 PM
Maddo Snr: "I fitted an AIM S/C to a new FLHX yesterday and noticed that the latest oil deflector perfectly clears the AIM push-cup. That was very thoughtful of the MoCo..."

That problem FLHX dropped in today so I popped the derby off and checked the primary oil level, 300 miles in 85 degree heat in the hills. Oil level hadn't moved. AIM + vent + machined bypass.

The factory service regime needs to measure primary oil height at each service and record it (as well as sump drained oil volume).

We have clown service managers over here constantly saying "we've never seen it". Helllooooo, that's because you have no monitoring system in place.

They didn't find something they had no method of looking for, fancy that.  :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 13, 2019, 02:59:42 AM
  Over here too i'm the only one in N.W. Arkansas that had this problem.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 03:24:59 AM
Quote from: hd06 on March 13, 2019, 02:59:42 AM
  Over here too i'm the only one in N.W. Arkansas that had this problem.

I bet you're not!

You're the only one who has spotted it, the dealers aren't looking/have no system for checking...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 13, 2019, 04:12:38 AM
True, service department or customer isn't looking for a problem

:potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 13, 2019, 04:55:46 AM
Maddo Snr, regarding the trans to primary oil migration, can you summarize your fix?
I'll be taking delivery in about 2 weeks and one of the first things I'll be doing is adding an AIM slave cylinder. What else should I do while I'm in there?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 01:46:19 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 13, 2019, 04:55:46 AM
Maddo Snr, regarding the trans to primary oil migration, can you summarize your fix?
I'll be taking delivery in about 2 weeks and one of the first things I'll be doing is adding an AIM slave cylinder. What else should I do while I'm in there?

Sure, three pronged approach (early days yet though D, I'm calling 20+ bikes cured a fix, not 5...)
1) AIM slave
2) Primary vent (KTM250XC trans vent spigot, YZ250 fuel tank valve and hose)
3) milled by-pass in box hat.

*Gearbox oil bottom of 'X' while bike is vertical,
*Primary oil 1/2" under derby notch
*80W140 gear oil or similar in box
*20W50 full syn motor oil in primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 02:08:15 PM
Just a note:

As the box oil migrates to the primary, the primary oil level rises (obviously).
Then IMO, the primary air void then gets smaller, the oil load increases and the action of the primary in causing transfer gets worse and worse.

I believe it's a logarithmic transfer of oil which is why once it starts it seems to get worse.

Re:warranty. Here in OZ the MoCo would have to prove in a court of law that any mod had caused a particular warrantable claim, which would be near impossible given they've made 6-7 changes themselves and not fixed the issue. They clearly don't understand their own design.

Also, there's not much point in warranty when the MoCo;
1) created this design fault
2) can't fix it...after TWO YEARS.
3) has run out of parts to do repairs (slave cylinder diaphragms)
4) has employees doing independent fixes

Don't despair lads, Yamaha had WR450s compression-locking on hot start for 7 years and never lifted a finger - HotCams USA fixed it, Honda had CRF250Rs snap-bogging for 2 years before we found the issue - mis-aimed squirt mast. BMW abandoned production of the G450X because it had too many design faults to fix. KTM/WP have made SEVEN different front forks in 10 years trying to match KYBs 14 year old AOS fork.

It goes on with every brand.  :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 13, 2019, 02:57:23 PM
I'll bet none of those bikes were $40K plus, American!
:SM:

Yes other makes had/has issues. BMW comes to mind a few years ago, they had no easy fix, kept the bikes off the road, would not sell them, had a buy back program for those out of service. Other brands had issues also.

I've started a paper trail on my latest and I DO want to keep it.
I'm trying hard to let the dealer and factory fix their problem because as soon as I touch it it's then MY problem, and the MOCO and dealer will say "BUH BYE"
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on March 13, 2019, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 02:08:15 PM

I believe it's a logarithmic transfer of oil which is why once it starts it seems to get worse.


Don't you mean exponential?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 13, 2019, 03:07:56 PM
 :missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 13, 2019, 03:44:53 PM
   [/b]Maddo Snr[/b]
Sure, three pronged approach (early days yet though D, I'm calling 20+ bikes cured a fix, not 5...)

that is strong results! do you feel the AIM has a lot to do with your cure?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 04:02:26 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 13, 2019, 03:44:53 PM
   [/b]Maddo Snr[/b]
Sure, three pronged approach (early days yet though D, I'm calling 20+ bikes cured a fix, not 5...)

that is strong results! do you feel the AIM has a lot to do with your cure?

Yeh, as the AIM push spigot moves it totally opens up the area that the OEM diaphragm seals off. Although the latest HD nylon spacer seals perfectly around the AIM spigot, which in itself very fishy. The latest nylon spacer seems to be made more for the AIM S/C than the OEM version...

The AIM device is worth the price for its smoothness in traffic and low pressure action in hilly country. I love them.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 04:07:49 PM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on March 13, 2019, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 02:08:15 PM

I believe it's a logarithmic transfer of oil which is why once it starts it seems to get worse.


Don't you mean exponential?

Nah, the oil's moving DOWN from the gearbox to the primary and Log is the inverse of the Exp...  :hyst:

Guilty as charged Admiral, I stuffed up.  :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 13, 2019, 05:03:24 PM
Found this on another forum. Makes sense as does your fix Maddo Snr.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 13, 2019, 05:13:23 PM
So the gist is, keep the oil from pooling around the end of the mainshaft so it's not being sucked up or gravity fed to the primary. Venting may help some, but keeping the oil from being in the wrong place in the first place should solve the issue. Does that make sense to anyone else?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 06:55:41 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 13, 2019, 05:13:23 PM
...Venting may help some, but keeping the oil from being in the wrong place in the first place should solve the issue. Does that make sense to anyone else?

The MoCo have designed three (increasingly better sealed) versions of oil control on the out-bye side of the mainshaft bearing, without much success. Given that as RPMs rise the oil in the primary expands through turgidity AND the air void in the primary expands through heating, both these things would cause air/oil-mist to flow in a direction opposing transfer, not inducing it.

I've seen a bad bike transfer the box dry in too short a time to simply be oil running downhill. If the mainshaft RHS bearing was indeed pumping oil along the cross-shaft;
a) the early version nylon deflector would've cured the problem, and
b) we wouldn't have MoCo reps venting the primary and making it EASIER to 'pump' into the primary...

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hammerhandle on March 13, 2019, 10:54:44 PM
Maddo and others,
So whats the DIY solution for the folks that dont have access to Milling equipment or decent machine shop to take it to?
Is there a solution like the picture with channels heading from the diaphragm that could be made by hand or with a die grinder?



Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on March 14, 2019, 12:54:39 AM
nothing a hacksaw couldn't do   :SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hilly13 on March 14, 2019, 03:08:46 AM
Quote from: FSG on March 14, 2019, 12:54:39 AM
nothing a hacksaw couldn't do   :SM:
Where there is a will  :teeth:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 14, 2019, 04:44:43 AM
So venting does help some but the MoCo's seal/slinger isn't having any effect?
Given the volume moved over a short time, it does sound like a pumping action of some kind. Perhaps an augering effect? Is the mainshaft clutch rod bore very rough machined?
Apologies if I'm just dragging up previously discussed theories, I'm late to this party...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 14, 2019, 06:54:10 AM
Quote from: Hammerhandle on March 13, 2019, 10:54:44 PM
Maddo and others,
So whats the DIY solution for the folks that dont have access to Milling equipment or decent machine shop to take it to?
Is there a solution like the picture with channels heading from the diaphragm that could be made by hand or with a die grinder?
I used a die grinder...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on March 14, 2019, 09:26:12 AM
Quote from: Hammerhandle on March 13, 2019, 10:54:44 PM
Maddo and others,
So whats the DIY solution for the folks that dont have access to Milling equipment or decent machine shop to take it to?
Is there a solution like the picture with channels heading from the diaphragm that could be made by hand or with a die grinder?


Cheap die grinder and a aluminum burr. Stuff rags in all the holes and have at it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 14, 2019, 04:42:57 PM
The more I look at this issue the more I think that milling out the cover will solve the problem.

The old-style open hydraulic cover and a AIM slave is the solution I reckon.

I'll sit down this weekend and write some code to just pop it in the VMC and it'll be done in 10 minutes.

The MoCo seem intent on further sealing the vent end of the cross-shaft and it isn't working. The old open ended cover had no issues so it's worth revisiting that design IMO.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on March 14, 2019, 05:27:56 PM
I believe you're right. Keeping the oil away from the mainshaft end should be the solution. I've not been watching this situation all that closely until now, but from what I've seen, the biggest change they made is in that area.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 14, 2019, 06:52:47 PM
Quote from: grnrock on February 17, 2017, 02:31:46 PM
My 17 this is leaking oil into the primary

This was the start of this thread. And this is what was happening with my 17 also.
Over 50 pages of guessing, lots of poke a hole here and there, cut a slot, buy a aftermarket S/C, on and on.
I may have missed it but IF the primary case is going into a vacuum what's causing the vacuum?
If the clutch pushrod assembly is "pushing the oil along the mainshaft, how is it transferring 20+ oz of oil in 100 mostly freeway miles with very little clutch usage?
Things that I still don't understand. I'm going to be asking a bunch of questions to the factory rep next week and see if he's allowed to give out answers.

I'm guessing MOCO has a muzzle on him.

We shall see.
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on March 14, 2019, 07:56:06 PM
I suspect how you ask the questions will be important.  If he doesn't feel challenged he may open up a bit.  Admitting a little knowledge (enough to carry on a decent conversation) but not too much may encourage him to explain what he has found happens and works. Happy hunting.   :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 14, 2019, 08:39:42 PM
With respect Mike I believe you've underestimated the depth of engineering knowledge on HTT. Most of the questions you've asked have already been tested and examined by competent folks and peer reviewed by intelligent, experienced, sceptical, mechanical minds.

After 35 years as a Lecturer in Engineering and a Consultant, I can assure you this exactly what happens in engineering departments worldwide...

Except that instead of Millennial Graduates, HTT has folks who've ridden and wrenched HD for near 40 years. A ragtag group of amateur tinkerers they certainly are not. I'll leave this thread at this point with my respect for the fine minds on HTT intact.

You're now going to seek answers from a group of fellows that have had THREE different versions of oil control around the mainshaft support bearing and THREE different slave cylinder diaphragms, creating a total of NINE possible combinations of MoCo parts in that area. A group who have been working on this fault for darn near TWO YEARS without definitive success and who keep their failures and lack of ability top secret.

Good luck with that.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 15, 2019, 06:06:45 AM
Maddo Snr...was the pre M8 side cover open completely?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 15, 2019, 06:15:37 AM
Sorry if I offended any one of the members here on htt. I do understand where most of the engineering peoples mindset is at.
I come from a different work background and facilitated solutions to problems as quickly as possible to retain customers.
One of the most frustrating areas to deal with was having to say "our group is working on it". Does not sit well with some customers.
Yes, there was a time element involved in my job, and some PR with the client, most frustrating for me when I had to "wait".

I am aware of all the talent here on HTT and want to thank everyone for inquisitive minds and detail oriented explanations of what they found and the process of various fixes.

Too bad the factory people can't move a little faster!

Again, sorry if I offended anyone.

Mike
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on March 15, 2019, 07:01:50 AM
Not offended here Mike.   :hug:   I look forward to hearing the response (if any) you get from the MOCO rep.  If for no other reason it will have entertainment value, but hopefully may elude to something in the works. We may find out whose idea they are stealing this time.   :crook:   Like I said before, getting into a frank and honest discussion will be tough. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on March 15, 2019, 05:09:27 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 14, 2019, 08:39:42 PM
With respect Mike I believe you've underestimated the depth of engineering knowledge on HTT. Most of the questions you've asked have already been tested and examined by competent folks and peer reviewed by intelligent, experienced, sceptical, mechanical minds.

After 35 years as a Lecturer in Engineering and a Consultant, I can assure you this exactly what happens in engineering departments worldwide...

Except that instead of Millennial Graduates, HTT has folks who've ridden and wrenched HD for near 40 years. A ragtag group of amateur tinkerers they certainly are not. I'll leave this thread at this point with my respect for the fine minds on HTT intact.

You're now going to seek answers from a group of fellows that have had THREE different versions of oil control around the mainshaft support bearing and THREE different slave cylinder diaphragms, creating a total of NINE possible combinations of MoCo parts in that area. A group who have been working on this fault for darn near TWO YEARS without definitive success and who keep their failures and lack of ability top secret.

Good luck with that.
I think your on the money with this and I believe the MOCO know what the cause is as well but I can't see them removing and replacing side covers it's just to much money. they would be looking at applying the cheapest band aid they could find. hence the primary breather , the spigot bush and the slave cylinder bush. if this was a brake problem they would recall so fast your head would spin. Max
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hilly13 on March 15, 2019, 05:51:15 PM
The side cover mod makes sense to me as well Max, if my bike ever transfers that will be what I do, apparently even though it's a twin cam it could happen, I have checked a few times, nothing yet.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on March 15, 2019, 07:31:07 PM
Well after reading all these posts I decided to vent the primary, bought the oversize clutch rod and put it in and replaced the clutch slave with the AIM slave for a better clutch feel. I guess I'll find out if I get transfer in a few months. If I do get some transfer I'll take out the clutch rod and build up the milled part with brass so it will fill the trans shaft and maybe grind some spiral on it to try to keep oil from creeping down the shaft. I put Harley Formula+ in the primary and 75W-140 in the transmission so I'll see how that works out. The AIM slave is great! I now have a controllable friction zone and a light clutch. Getting in first and shifting is no different than before.
   Bigs

Thanks to all you guys for all the information
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 19, 2019, 03:57:36 PM
The factory fix is still the vented inner primary BUT nearly invisible unless you know where to look. Those wishing to keep their warranty intact should consider letting the dealer/factory rep install their vent hose.

The latest hose requires no other fittings. It's just a little curly injection molded hose that plugs into a hole drilled in the inner primary to relieve pressure from the primary (either negative or positive) symptoms known, cause undetermined.

They also recommend formula + in the primary and trans for now.

Why the primary still fills up and trans empties is still a mystery to we the consumers.

I have high hopes this at least cures my oil transfer issue until MOCO determines the final cause and fix.

I'll put some miles on mine this weekend and more on a trip to Phoenix in another week. Will be keeping a close watch on trans oil levels.

:nix:



Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 19, 2019, 04:20:38 PM
can you give us a picture? did a rep come from harley to do it...or was it a dealer tech?


Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 19, 2019, 03:57:36 PM
The factory fix is still the vented inner primary BUT nearly invisible unless you know where to look. Those wishing to keep their warranty intact should consider letting the dealer/factory rep install their vent hose.

The latest hose requires no other fittings. It's just a little curly injection molded hose that plugs into a hole drilled in the inner primary to relieve pressure from the primary (either negative or positive) symptoms known, cause undetermined.

They also recommend formula + in the primary and trans for now.

Why the primary still fills up and trans empties is still a mystery to we the consumers.

I have high hopes this at least cures my oil transfer issue until MOCO determines the final cause and fix.

I'll put some miles on mine this weekend and more on a trip to Phoenix in another week. Will be keeping a close watch on trans oil levels.

:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on March 19, 2019, 04:47:40 PM
I always thought that venting the primary through the main shaft into the transmission was a strange way. Why not seal the main shaft to the pushrod and vent the primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 19, 2019, 05:32:01 PM
I agree completely and I will tell why...The first thing I did when I brought my bike home was drain the junk oil out they put in the transmission. A good synthetic makes it shift better and find neutral easier. So...I put in Redline Trans oil...riding I could smell the trans oil venting. The trans and primary must be a lot venting out together. I had a oil transfer problem. After I vented the primary...I don't smell the trans oil anymore. It seemed like a lot of venting was going on with both before I vented the primary.



Quote from: PoorUB on March 19, 2019, 04:47:40 PM
I always thought that venting the primary through the main shaft into the transmission was a strange way. Why not seal the main shaft to the pushrod and vent the primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 21, 2019, 04:51:14 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 19, 2019, 04:47:40 PM
I always thought that venting the primary through the main shaft into the transmission was a strange way. Why not seal the main shaft to the pushrod and vent the primary.

Would seem logical to me also but for now we'll see if the cheap fix works.
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on March 21, 2019, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on June 03, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
The secondary clutch actuator assembly for 2016 (37200023) was changed for 2017 to two P/N's...first it was 37200131 then superseded by 37200131A.

.............

since superseded by 37200131B

and now superseded by 37200131C
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hilly13 on March 21, 2019, 04:51:02 PM
Quote from: FSG on March 21, 2019, 04:35:22 PM
Quote from: Bike31 on June 03, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
The secondary clutch actuator assembly for 2016 (37200023) was changed for 2017 to two P/N's...first it was 37200131 then superseded by 37200131A.

.............

since superseded by 37200131B

and now superseded by 37200131C

I think the 2016 has a different line and master cylinder as well, don't think you can just go to the newest slave cylinder without changing a few other bits because of bore ratios. I could be wrong though.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 23, 2019, 06:50:52 PM
Watch the MOCO do the easy fix.
Isolate the primary from the trans, probably just a cheap oil seal on the clutch push rod and the latest primary vent.

Not all the M8s transfered oil as fast and as much as mine I'm told.
The fix seems to be working on mine, got a little over 300 miles since the fix and still have oil on the dipstick. First time for that, don't know about the others at this point, no feedback.

:chop:
:missed:

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 24, 2019, 04:05:21 PM
do you have a pic of the vent tube on the bike to see the location?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 24, 2019, 06:54:44 PM
Very hard to see with the heat shield in place
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 25, 2019, 02:52:24 AM
  Great job.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 25, 2019, 09:17:24 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 24, 2019, 06:54:44 PM
Very hard to see with the heat shield in place

that looks great...I had to look for it...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on March 26, 2019, 12:55:36 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 24, 2019, 06:54:44 PM
Very hard to see with the heat shield in place

This is the position of the vent hose bore imho

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on March 26, 2019, 04:27:44 PM
     :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on March 26, 2019, 04:59:38 PM
I hope the vent works since I put one on my '17RK. I drilled and taped a 1/8 pipe thread and then screwed in the fitting.
   Bigs
[attach=0]
[attach=0]
[attach=0]
[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on March 26, 2019, 05:01:36 PM
Don't know what happened. I put in 4 different pics.
   Bigs
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on March 26, 2019, 06:15:48 PM
Where did you run the hose to?  And did you have enough room to tap the pipe thread without taking off the inner primary?

I'm assuming you had a transfer issue - let us know if it eliminated the issue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on March 26, 2019, 06:24:56 PM
I ran the hose back and up along the frame and then down with some old foam filter on the end. This is a picture of where I drilled and tapped.
   Bigs [attach=0]




Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Bigs on March 26, 2019, 06:29:00 PM
Here's a picture of the fitting - a 1/8 close nipple, 90 el and 1/8 barbed fitting.
   Bigs [attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 26, 2019, 07:18:01 PM
Either before or after the starter hole, works the same to relieve the vacuum.
The factory fix is a lot harder to see, and it's got a little molded (shoe) to keep it from rotating and plug the hole.
I'm satisfied with the factory fix at this point, as I  got to put some miles on the bike and checked tonight, still have oil on my dipstick. That's a first for this bike, I just may keep it!!
If you paint the brass fittings black they blend right in.
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rudi_ufg on March 27, 2019, 03:24:37 AM
@hogmike: is it a really factory fix, done by your dealer or is it a dealer fix?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 27, 2019, 05:13:50 AM
Quote from: rudi_ufg on March 27, 2019, 03:24:37 AM
@hogmike: is it a really factory fix, done by your dealer or is it a dealer fix?

There is a TA about this issue with a procedure to check oil levels. The TA list of bikes that MAY be affected goes back a couple years.

The dealer calls the factory after following the test and check.
If it's determined that the oil transfer is "excessive" a factory tech will do the fix at the dealership.
This will keep a paper trail and warranty in place.

The root cause of the problem has not been made public yet, but I'll guess the factory is trying to figure out the cheapest way to fix it.
The various fixes on the web all seem to work in one way or another but none are "factory approved " and MAY void your warranty if there's a problem.

This information is what I've learned from our service manager, GM, factory tech and lead tech from history on some of the bikes that the TA references at the local dealership.

JMHO of course.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 27, 2019, 06:03:22 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 21, 2019, 04:51:14 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 19, 2019, 04:47:40 PM
I always thought that venting the primary through the main shaft into the transmission was a strange way. Why not seal the main shaft to the pushrod and vent the primary.

Would seem logical to me also but for now we'll see if the cheap fix works.
:nix:

looks like harley has these hoses in production for this application...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on March 27, 2019, 08:48:20 AM
Quote from: Bigs on March 26, 2019, 06:29:00 PM
Here's a picture of the fitting - a 1/8 close nipple, 90 el and 1/8 barbed fitting.
   Bigs [attach=0,msg1289202]
A straight 90 el 1/8th barbed fitting would eliminate the need for a close nipple and 90 el or is there not enough distance from the case for that.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hdrider on March 27, 2019, 10:08:00 AM
If Harley has a vent hose in production for this application,  does anyone have a part number or a way to order this?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 27, 2019, 01:38:26 PM
Maddo Snr I hope you are still reading. Thank you...with the vent and slotting my side cover I have no more transfer. Also I got a AIM...wow what a difference it makes...i appreciate the help. It's a pretty good bike now.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 27, 2019, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 27, 2019, 01:38:26 PM
Maddo Snr I hope you are still reading. Thank you...with the vent and slotting my side cover I have no more transfer. Also I got a AIM...wow what a difference it makes...i appreciate the help. It's a pretty good bike now.

I agree
AIM is on my list also
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 27, 2019, 02:08:53 PM
Quote from: hdrider on March 27, 2019, 10:08:00 AM
If Harley has a vent hose in production for this application,  does anyone have a part number or a way to order this
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 27, 2019, 02:09:29 PM
Quote from: hdrider on March 27, 2019, 10:08:00 AM
If Harley has a vent hose in production for this application,  does anyone have a part number or a way to order this?

I don't believe that part is in production at this time
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 27, 2019, 04:23:59 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 27, 2019, 01:38:26 PM
Maddo Snr I hope you are still reading. Thank you...with the vent and slotting my side cover I have no more transfer. Also I got a AIM...wow what a difference it makes...i appreciate the help. It's a pretty good bike now.

You're welcome OB. We're up to 11 bikes done now. Milled cover, AIM, vent.

Cured every one of them.

Until such time as it doesn't work I'm not thinking about the issue any more.
We're lucky here in Australia, to void warranty the MoCo would need to prove in a court of law that the mod caused a failure. With the MoCo's track record they'd be struggling to prove the Earth is round.

Applying ourselves to sumping now, made some neat discoveries there too.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: oldbag on March 27, 2019, 04:39:25 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 27, 2019, 04:23:59 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 27, 2019, 01:38:26 PM
Maddo Snr I hope you are still reading. Thank you...with the vent and slotting my side cover I have no more transfer. Also I got a AIM...wow what a difference it makes...i appreciate the help. It's a pretty good bike now.

You're welcome OB. We're up to 11 bikes done now. Milled cover, AIM, vent.

Cured every one of them.

Until such time as it doesn't work I'm not thinking about the issue any more.
We're lucky here in Australia, to void warranty the MoCo would need to prove in a court of law that the mod caused a failure. With the MoCo's track record they'd be struggling to prove the Earth is round.

Applying ourselves to sumping now, made some neat discoveries there too.

does MoCo have a warranty?!?! I thought they were sold as is!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 27, 2019, 06:29:12 PM
There is a 2 year unlimited mile warranty from bumper to bumper.
All inclusive unless.....

You start the engine or sit on the bike or move it more than 1 foot then the warranty is void.

:potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Ozbob on March 27, 2019, 10:40:27 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 27, 2019, 04:23:59 PM
Quote from: oldbag on March 27, 2019, 01:38:26 PM
Maddo Snr I hope you are still reading. Thank you...with the vent and slotting my side cover I have no more transfer. Also I got a AIM...wow what a difference it makes...i appreciate the help. It's a pretty good bike now.

You're welcome OB. We're up to 11 bikes done now. Milled cover, AIM, vent.

Cured every one of them.

Until such time as it doesn't work I'm not thinking about the issue any more.
We're lucky here in Australia, to void warranty the MoCo would need to prove in a court of law that the mod caused a failure. With the MoCo's track record they'd be struggling to prove the Earth is round.

Applying ourselves to sumping now, made some neat discoveries there too.
Give it up cobber, you been eyeballin them lifter bores, I seen some picx n vids showing bad machining and excessive oil flow back to lifter blocks.
Do tell what's happening in your neck of the woods
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on March 29, 2019, 03:07:05 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 26, 2019, 07:18:01 PM
Either before or after the starter hole, works the same to relieve the vacuum.

Vac, yes. But not oil-mist Mike.

If installed at the rearward side of the starter pinion, that section of the primary cover is loaded with oil picked up by the clutch basket and it mists a fair swag of oil out of the breather. If the vent is in front of the pinion that part of the primary cover is much drier and a smaller vent diameter can be used.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 29, 2019, 03:36:38 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 29, 2019, 03:07:05 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 26, 2019, 07:18:01 PM
Either before or after the starter hole, works the same to relieve the vacuum.

Vac, yes. But not oil-mist Mike.

If installed at the rearward side of the starter pinion, that section of the primary cover is loaded with oil picked up by the clutch basket and it mists a fair swag of oil out of the breather. If the vent is in front of the pinion that part of the primary cover is much drier and a smaller vent diameter can be used.

I understand, never thought of the rotating mass with the oil flinging everywhere.
I'm doing a long ride tomorrow, some hiway some mountain roads and everything in between. I'll be curious if there's ANY signs of oil discharge at the hose opening.
You would think that if there WAS an excessive oil mist coming out the breather, it would coat the drive belt and surrounding area. I thought of that at the install that the hose had a loop back downwards right near the drive belt.
Since there is the vacuum (I'm told mine was excessive, whatever that means) I'm thinking any mist or vapor would be sucked in, not discharged.
I haven't any feedback from the others out here that had the same factory fix.

We shall see.  :missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 29, 2019, 04:17:58 PM
One other thing: I'm not sure we have the same definition of "swag"
We may have a different meaning here!
:SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hilly13 on March 29, 2019, 07:07:12 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 29, 2019, 04:17:58 PM
One other thing: I'm not sure we have the same definition of "swag"
We may have a different meaning here!
:SM:

Oz slang for a fair bit, it's also roll up camp bedding, what's it mean over there?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on March 29, 2019, 07:28:22 PM
Couple of meanings
I'm used to "Scientific Wild Ass Guess"
Used when we had to talk to the engineers on the job!
LOL
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on April 01, 2019, 07:54:48 AM
Latest update:
After about 1000 miles after the factory authorized "fix" for my oil transfer issue there is now oil on my dipstick (as per the check in the owners manual).
There is still no official word as to WHY the vacuum is happening in the first place. MOCO is still "working" on the issue I'm told.
MSur:. No oil visible on the vent tube, or adjacent areas. I'm still thinking of cutting the tube short and installing my little filter, but have to wait (warranty).

I now have my Fullsac exhaust system installed along with the new dyno map (thanks, Steve for the tune)
With the new parts and tune the bike now runs without the hesitation off idle and pulls strong uphill, BSR, headwind, 5000 ft. Etc.
I'm told the cam in the 117 is the 25400199 (torque) in the stage 2 kit. Don't know for sure but it pulls pretty good with the stock engine.
Going to bike week this week, we'll see how the long ride goes.
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on April 01, 2019, 08:01:57 AM
One of our riders at breakfast yesterday asked me about my oil transfer issue
I gave him the condensed version and he told me he just had the 1000 mile dealer oil change and his bike was fine.
I asked him "how long ago"? He said about 500 miles ago, after we ate he wanted to check and he pulls the dipstick. No oil showing. Stuck a pencil in the hole and found some oil!
He's planning to go to the dealership today, LOL
:potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on April 01, 2019, 11:04:06 PM
  Dealers don't check oil levels they drain and replace.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on April 02, 2019, 12:09:23 AM
Quote from: hd06 on April 01, 2019, 11:04:06 PM
  Dealers don't check oil levels they drain and replace.

Exactly right. This is why they can honestly say "We've never seen it", because they don't look...

Most dealers also use Formula+ in both holes making it impossible to spot until it's too late.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on April 02, 2019, 05:34:43 AM
Quote from: hd06 on April 01, 2019, 11:04:06 PM
  Dealers don't check oil levels they drain and replace.
and sometime they don't even do that...ask me how I know  :angry:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RLS on April 11, 2019, 11:34:00 AM
Been following this transfer issue on another forum, but recently rejoined this one.  Anyway, from what I gathered from this thread is that venting the primary eliminates the transfer.  With that said then something is causing a vaccum to form in the primary.  It would seem that as the motor warmed up the pressure would increase.  What am I missing here?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on April 11, 2019, 12:51:21 PM
Quote from: RLS on April 11, 2019, 11:34:00 AM
Been following this transfer issue on another forum, but recently rejoined this one.  Anyway, from what I gathered from this thread is that venting the primary eliminates the transfer.  With that said then something is causing a vaccum to form in the primary.  It would seem that as the motor warmed up the pressure would increase.  What am I missing here?
Pressure could also force oil to transfer. Which hole heats the fluid up the most. I would guess the tranny but who knows. All I do know is that forgoing the M8 for my current TC was one of my better choices lately.  :scoot:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on April 12, 2019, 05:32:31 AM
My '19 RG has the migration issue. I checked the trans fluid level at delivery and at about 200 miles, it was in the middle of the add and full marks. Checked it again on Monday at 631 miles, nothing on the stick. It took 16 ozs to put it in the middle.
I rode 200 miles and checked it the next morning, down another 5 ozs.

So I pulled the derby cover and removed the excess. Then pulled the pushrod and modified it. Just trying the simplest fix first. I'll modify the trans side cover if this doesn't work, or doesn't work well enough.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
 :up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Wood on April 13, 2019, 05:19:27 AM
New kit released from the MOCO; found this info on another forum.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on April 13, 2019, 06:39:02 AM
And now the dealers are allowed to do the "fix".
You don't have to wait for a factory tech :missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on April 13, 2019, 07:36:23 AM
They must be having success with it to get to the point of having hoses molded etc. Would be nice if you could buy the hose separately, their primary gaskets are pretty spendy & can be reused many times in my experience. Aftermarket will be along shortly I bet.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on April 13, 2019, 09:54:46 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on April 13, 2019, 07:36:23 AM
They must be having success with it to get to the point of having hoses molded etc. Would be nice if you could buy the hose separately, their primary gaskets are pretty spendy & can be reused many times in my experience. Aftermarket will be along shortly I bet.
It took then into the 3rd year of bike production to perfect the shape of the hose. :hyst: In reality they were once again shamed by experimenters into doing something to fix the issue. So, is this going to be on the owners dime for the fix or will they do it in good faith?
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on April 13, 2019, 02:08:32 PM
Quote from: rbabos on April 13, 2019, 09:54:46 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on April 13, 2019, 07:36:23 AM
They must be having success with it to get to the point of having hoses molded etc. Would be nice if you could buy the hose separately, their primary gaskets are pretty spendy & can be reused many times in my experience. Aftermarket will be along shortly I bet.
It took then into the 3rd year of bike production to perfect the shape of the hose. :hyst: In reality they were once again shamed by experimenters into doing something to fix the issue. So, is this going to be on the owners dime for the fix or will they do it in good faith?
Ron

I just happened to be talking to our SM this morning. Their procedure is to call the factory, request a RO and hose "kit" is over nighted. Seems they don't keep them in stock.
2yr warranty kicks in. Those out of warranty the dealer will eat the cost "minimal" good faith for future business.
Too bad the motor company can't follow the lead from some of the dealers to promote future business.
:wtf:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: To The Max on April 13, 2019, 06:25:35 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:
Yes I felt the same if he had talked to me like that I would not have been nice about it. Max
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on April 13, 2019, 08:38:11 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:

I didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling from him either!
I don't care for his style of making videos either. Too much B.S., not enough substance. Although he has a following so I guess he is doing what the general population likes.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on April 15, 2019, 06:06:32 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:
:dgust: well he does work for the MoCo, after viewing again, I never saw him talk about the 'solution' that HD came up with to solve the non issue - sorry guys
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Scooterfish on April 15, 2019, 10:33:06 AM
The video was posted July 25 2018, so 9 mos old. I have seen some of his other videos and they appear to be  hawking a lot of general bolt on parts.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:

Man, do you have in inferiority complex?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on April 16, 2019, 12:46:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:

Man, do you have in inferiority complex?

I'm ok Max.
Why would you think otherwise ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on April 16, 2019, 07:49:49 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 16, 2019, 12:46:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:

Man, do you have in inferiority complex?

I'm ok Max.
Why would you think otherwise ?

Because John Maxwell rates a lot lower on the axehole scale and you think he's condescending?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on April 16, 2019, 08:02:26 PM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 16, 2019, 07:49:49 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 16, 2019, 12:46:12 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:12 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 13, 2019, 07:02:32 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 12, 2019, 07:48:11 AM
:up: another honest HD tech
https://youtu.be/Rm57U2SUYaE
Don't agree Pete
I think he is a condescending wanker
peddling the typical MoCo response, nothing to worry about  :nix:

Man, do you have in inferiority complex?

I'm ok Max.
Why would you think otherwise ?

Because John Maxwell rates a lot lower on the axehole scale and you think he's condescending?

How would you rate the content and his delivery Max ?
Who do you think the target audience is ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on April 17, 2019, 07:10:15 PM
Add another one to the list, My 2019 Roadking with 559 miles on it and all the trans fluid is in the primary!! What really grinds my gears is how the service dept folks think we no nothing about how these things work!!!😖
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on April 18, 2019, 04:49:26 AM
 They know we are up to them most Harley riders are gearheads they're playing it down. My service department tells me I'm the only one that they seen with this problem. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on April 18, 2019, 05:18:04 AM
Quote from: hd06 on April 18, 2019, 04:49:26 AM
They know we are up to them most Harley riders are gearheads they're playing it down. My service department tells me I'm the only one that they seen with this problem.
Yeah mine had that put on purlexed look on his face
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on April 18, 2019, 07:20:25 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on April 16, 2019, 08:02:26 PM

How would you rate the content and his delivery Max ?
Who do you think the target audience is ?

Content - low tech
Delivery - I like it. IMO he don't come across as a "know it all". Reminds of a couple guys I knew when I worked in a shop.
Audience - the average guy that wants to know a little more about his bike and what goes on in the service department. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on April 18, 2019, 12:03:25 PM
even though I don't have a dog in this fight I've been following this thread, some very good insight here, lots of folks attempting to diagnose a strange issue, design a solution, and put it out to the forum, some really great talented folks here that have taken the time, to start from scratch, dump all 3 holes, check and measure periodically to prove there's something afoot, R&D after the fact, but R&D non the less and hopefully this info will help someone down the road, check the fluid levels and contact the MoCo concerning the issue.
nothing gets solved by just ignoring the 'non issue' and waiting for the MoCo to solve a  'non issue'   :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on April 18, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on April 18, 2019, 12:03:25 PM
even though I don't have a dog in this fight I've been following this thread, some very good insight here, lots of folks attempting to diagnose a strange issue, design a solution, and put it out to the forum, some really great talented folks here that have taken the time, to start from scratch, dump all 3 holes, check and measure periodically to prove there's something afoot, R&D after the fact, but R&D non the less and hopefully this info will help someone down the road, check the fluid levels and contact the MoCo concerning the issue.
nothing gets solved by just ignoring the 'non issue' and waiting for the MoCo to solve a  'non issue'   :wink:

:agree:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: vetteandharley on April 18, 2019, 12:51:17 PM
 Recently purchased a 2017 Road Glide Special privately.  I asked if he had any fluid migration issues with the bike and got what I believe was an honest answer, just had the 10,000 mile check done and everything was good to go.  After putting a few more miles on it I checked the transmission and it was low.  Drained the transmission and got 24 ounces out of it, at this point I haven't checked the primary so I'm not sure if it wasn't fully filled or I have migration.  I'm 90 miles away from any Harley dealer but happened to be by one on Saturday.  Went to the parts department and asked about the primary venting kit.  He'd never heard of it and went back to talk to the service department, meanwhile I went out and retrieved my phone.  Pulled up Woods post with the part number and they weren't able to find it even with it.   :scratch:  :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on April 18, 2019, 04:54:22 PM
Quote from: vetteandharley on April 18, 2019, 12:51:17 PM
  He'd never heard of it and went back to talk to the service department, meanwhile I went out and retrieved my phone.  Pulled up Woods post with the part number and they weren't able to find it even with it.   :scratch:  :nix:

Yeah, mine went back to Tucson Harley and the did the normal act surprised routine as well. So I pulled up the post with the Harley version of the primary vent and showed it to them. So fast forward to today, I get a phone call and the tech tells me the MoCo had him drain and measure fluids and pending their approval they will overnight them the "kit"!!!🤔
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on April 18, 2019, 05:00:04 PM
Quote from: vetteandharley on April 18, 2019, 12:51:17 PM
Recently purchased a 2017 Road Glide Special privately.  I asked if he had any fluid migration issues with the bike and got what I believe was an honest answer, just had the 10,000 mile check done and everything was good to go.  After putting a few more miles on it I checked the transmission and it was low.  Drained the transmission and got 24 ounces out of it, at this point I haven't checked the primary so I'm not sure if it wasn't fully filled or I have migration.  I'm 90 miles away from any Harley dealer but happened to be by one on Saturday.  Went to the parts department and asked about the primary venting kit.  He'd never heard of it and went back to talk to the service department, meanwhile I went out and retrieved my phone.  Pulled up Woods post with the part number and they weren't able to find it even with it.   :scratch:  :nix:

There is a tech article TA0022 you may want to check out, most dealer techs either don't read that or don't care, this will give you the sequence that you can verify a transfer issue. Just because they serviced the bike doesn't mean you don't have a problem. Best to follow the article IMHO
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on April 19, 2019, 09:41:10 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on November 14, 2017, 05:27:23 AM
Don't think that the diaphragm of the Brembo unit made the difference.

Twincam (-2016)
[attach=0,msg1191526]

M8 (2017 up)
[attach=1,msg1191526]
one has a rubber diaphragm and the other does not! HUGE difference if you ask me!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Txwezl on April 19, 2019, 03:23:08 PM
Quote from: Wood on April 13, 2019, 05:19:27 AM
New kit released from the MOCO; found this info on another forum.
I expect we'll see this as standard equipment on the next year models. Then It will be ez to get.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on April 20, 2019, 06:11:54 PM
Maddo Snr., I'm curious as to the success you've had with the milling of the tranny end covers on the M8s. Also I read a post where you referred to an additional drain hole in the s/c mating surface. I have a 2019 Roadking with 559 miles on it  currently awaiting the MOCO vent install and I am going to do the mod you have posted that connects to the trans air void. Again I am just curious as to if it is worth it for me to also do your mod. Also would like to thank you for posting the results and details regarding your testing on the subject

Thank you,
Dan.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on April 20, 2019, 09:38:27 PM
Quote from: Harley Pilot on April 20, 2019, 06:11:54 PM
Maddo Snr., I'm curious as to the success you've had with the milling of the tranny end covers on the M8s. Also I read a post where you referred to an additional drain hole in the s/c mating surface. I have a 2019 Roadking with 559 miles on it  currently awaiting the MOCO vent install and I am going to do the mod you have posted that connects to the trans air void. Again I am just curious as to if it is worth it for me to also do your mod. Also would like to thank you for posting the results and details regarding your testing on the subject

Thank you,
Dan.

Dan, I'll pop the hat off and take some pics of the modded part and post it up. The bleed hole he's the OEM diaphragm but isn't required if running the AIM slave.

RSD have a replacement M8 cover coming which also has the bleed passages milled in.

The milled cover alone does solve the issue IMO, but once you've ridden a AIM-equpped bike it's hard to put up with a stock slave, even the '19.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on April 21, 2019, 04:07:58 AM
QuoteDan, I'll pop the hat off and take some pics of the modded part and post it up. The bleed hole he's the OEM diaphragm but isn't required if running the AIM slave.

RSD have a replacement M8 cover coming which also has the bleed passages milled in.

The milled cover alone does solve the issue IMO, but once you've ridden a AIM-equpped bike it's hard to put up with a stock slave, even the '19.
Quote

Thank you.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: chuck8446 on April 22, 2019, 11:05:00 AM
had the same problem on 17 & 19 cvo, Harley put a breather on the primary case, 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RoadGlide18 on April 23, 2019, 12:38:23 PM
Do a search for Greg Williams.  Just search pushrod, you may find the answer and fix your looking for.

JK
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hotbo on April 23, 2019, 01:58:29 PM
Hes is all over the M8 forums on Facebook. I just ordered his clutch  pushrod for my 19... I have not seen or heard a complaint yet about his larger diameter pushrod not working! Travis
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on April 25, 2019, 03:09:36 PM
Well the dealer got the vent tube fix installed and I'll be putting around 500 miles on it this weekend, but boy they sure didn't want to give me any paperwork and what they  did give me was very obscure. They maintain there is no part no. For the kit and there is no mention of it on the paperwork!🤔
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on April 25, 2019, 03:47:31 PM
Quote from: Harley Pilot on April 25, 2019, 03:09:36 PM
Well the dealer got the vent tube fix installed and I'll be putting around 500 miles on it this weekend, but boy they sure didn't want to give me any paperwork and what they  did give me was very obscure. They maintain there is no part no. For the kit and there is no mention of it on the paperwork!🤔

94100065   :emsad:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RoadGlide18 on April 25, 2019, 04:08:49 PM
Just installed GW's push rod. Way better than the stock one.  Took 10 minutes to install. Took 60 mile ride no issues yet. Will keep my eye on it but lost 3 oz at 200 miles before the install.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Thermodyne on April 26, 2019, 06:16:50 PM
Quote from: Wood on April 13, 2019, 05:19:27 AM
New kit released from the MOCO; found this info on another forum.

Hey I've seen those before...

Update, this kit is not in general release yet.  What ever that means.

Factory reps can request them, and then there is some required follow up after they are installed. 

SO I'm thinking this is one of those shots in the dark. Another poke and hope.

After getting up close and personal with the clutch on my 18, I found that the hub and pressure plate probably pump oil too.  The is a small drain hole in the hub, But I think its too small to work well, especially when the oil is cold.  The pressure plate rides on a cylinder shaped area as it moves in and out or twists with the slipper ramps.  Its a close fit, that's what keeps the plate centered.

Its the machined area around the nut.

(https://i.imgur.com/MICLyzB.jpg)

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Admiral Akbar on April 26, 2019, 07:13:21 PM
Quote from: Thermodyne on April 26, 2019, 06:16:50 PM
Quote from: Wood on April 13, 2019, 05:19:27 AM
New kit released from the MOCO; found this info on another forum.

Hey I've seen those before...

Update, this kit is not in general release yet.  What ever that means.

Factory reps can request them, and then there is some required follow up after they are installed. 

SO I'm thinking this is one of those shots in the dark. Another poke and hope.

After getting up close and personal with the clutch on my 18, I found that the hub and pressure plate probably pump oil too.  The is a small drain hole in the hub, But I think its too small to work well, especially when the oil is cold.  The pressure plate rides on a cylinder shaped area as it moves in and out or twists with the slipper ramps.  Its a close fit, that's what keeps the plate centered.

Its the machined area around the nut.

(https://i.imgur.com/MICLyzB.jpg)

Been saying this fer a long time
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RedDog on April 27, 2019, 04:10:46 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 26, 2019, 07:13:21 PM


Hey I've seen those before...

Update, this kit is not in general release yet.  What ever that means.

Factory reps can request them, and then there is some required follow up after they are installed. 

SO I'm thinking this is one of those shots in the dark. Another poke and hope.

After getting up close and personal with the clutch on my 18, I found that the hub and pressure plate probably pump oil too.  The is a small drain hole in the hub, But I think its too small to work well, especially when the oil is cold.  The pressure plate rides on a cylinder shaped area as it moves in and out or twists with the slipper ramps.  Its a close fit, that's what keeps the plate centered.

Its the machined area around the nut

Been saying this fer a long time
[/quote]

Inner primary vent kit sent to dealer from the MOCO. Dealer installs it.  No follow up needed!

Vent kit was installed in my '19 Limited last week at 1,000 miles.  After 700 miles it appears to have solved my transfer issue!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on April 27, 2019, 05:08:27 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on April 18, 2019, 09:24:30 AM
thought this thread was dead?  How long are we going to rag on this subject...ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

Why would it be dead? There is still an issue without resolution form the company that manufactures the product.

We get it, you think HD can do no wrong, so maybe you shouldn't bother reading threads like this; it must be full of lies and people that just want to bash your beloved MoCo.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on April 27, 2019, 05:50:37 AM
Harley has been very quiet as to WHY the oil is leaving the transmission and ending up in the primary.
Inquiring minds want to know WHY this is happening when there was never a problem in the past design change.
Ask yourself why does the primary case go into a vacuum state, or why is the transmission "pushing oil" along the main shaft?
Factory field technicians have tried different "fixes" to address the issue but the latest 5 cent hose is the cheapest and easiest band aid to keep the oil where it belongs.

Follow the money.

JMHO as usual
:missed:


Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on May 01, 2019, 06:20:30 AM
Quote from: Harley Pilot on April 25, 2019, 03:09:36 PM
Well the dealer got the vent tube fix installed and I'll be putting around 500 miles on it this weekend, but boy they sure didn't want to give me any paperwork and what they  did give me was very obscure. They maintain there is no part no. For the kit and there is no mention of it on the paperwork!🤔
So far no transfer with the vent tube installed,got about 700 miles in last weekend.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ziggy24 on May 06, 2019, 06:29:53 AM
My 2019 FLHXS is also transferring! Not sure when Harley will get their  crap together. Almost 30 grand for a bike and dealing with nonsense!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: jamminhd2000 on May 06, 2019, 09:21:49 AM
Quote from: ziggy24 on May 06, 2019, 06:29:53 AM
My 2019 FLHXS is also transferring! Not sure when Harley will get their  crap together. Almost 30 grand for a bike and dealing with nonsense!
Any more updates on this harley pilot? Thanks....jimmy
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Harley Pilot on May 08, 2019, 05:45:12 AM
Quote from: jamminhd2000 on May 06, 2019, 09:21:49 AM
Quote from: ziggy24 on May 06, 2019, 06:29:53 AM
My 2019 FLHXS is also transferring! Not sure when Harley will get their  crap together. Almost 30 grand for a bike and dealing with nonsense!
Any more updates on this harley pilot? Thanks....jimmy

Wrong guy, I have the FLHR my bike got the vent tube fix the first time I took it in at 564mi. So far so good at 800mi.on the "fix"
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on May 08, 2019, 06:16:02 AM
Checked then changed my 2019 cvo oils yesterday at 4500 miles.
All oil levels are where they are supposed to be.
Oil transfer was first noticed at 200 miles when I noticed increased hard shifting and clutch release problems.

Fast forward after convincing my dealer that there IS a problem and complaining to Harley, the "cheap fix" is keeping the oil where it's supposed to be.
Starting on my annual summer trips next week and hopefully there will be NO MORE issues on the new bike.
I really like the rest of the bike it's just a shame to have to jump through all the hoops to get it operating the way that was promised at sale time.
Customer service is still very poor compared to other companies.
JMHO
:potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hotbo on May 09, 2019, 02:52:27 AM
2019 FLHX 886 miles transferred 16 ounces tranny fluid into primary  :angry: I bought Greg Williams clutch pushrod and installed. 200 miles later and no transfer.  :up: He sells the fire outta these pushrods  :idunno: Travis

Harley and this vented Primary band aid fix are full of BS IMO!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 09, 2019, 04:15:50 AM
  Hotbo,  Did you try the primary vent on your bike.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: crusinmann on May 09, 2019, 04:28:28 AM
Quote from: hotbo on May 09, 2019, 02:52:27 AM
2019 FLHX 886 miles transferred 16 ounces tranny fluid into primary  :angry: I bought Greg Williams clutch pushrod and installed. 200 miles later and no transfer.  :up: He sells the fire outta these pushrods  :idunno: Travis

Harley and this vented Primary band aid fix are full of BS IMO!
I seen on another board a guy with the fatrod  says still transfers not saying how much but he used dye with infrared red light to see it coming thru. I put fatrod in and had dealer installed vent put in.I'll get some miles on next weekend and we will see. I had 60oz taken out of my primary with 400 miles on. I had to add to trans 2 x's in those miles. At that rate I would need a qt of trans oil at every fill up
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hotbo on May 09, 2019, 06:16:02 AM
Quote from: crusinmann on May 09, 2019, 04:28:28 AM
Quote from: hotbo on May 09, 2019, 02:52:27 AM
2019 FLHX 886 miles transferred 16 ounces tranny fluid into primary  :angry: I bought Greg Williams clutch pushrod and installed. 200 miles later and no transfer.  :up: He sells the fire outta these pushrods  :idunno: Travis

Harley and this vented Primary band aid fix are full of BS IMO!
I seen on another board a guy with the fatrod  says still transfers not saying how much but he used dye with infrared red light to see it coming thru. I put fatrod in and had dealer installed vent put in.I'll get some miles on next weekend and we will see. I had 60oz taken out of my primary with 400 miles on. I had to add to trans 2 x's in those miles. At that rate I would need a qt of trans oil at every fill up

Im sure his pushrod is not the ultimate fix... any case it seems to really slow the transfer rate down.I am closely monitoring mine.Draining primary after every short and decedent ride.Rain wont stop long enough for me get over 75-100 miles on the weekends. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: MakoHD on May 09, 2019, 06:25:56 AM
once again you guys can keep braking your head about this but i would like to state it again for the ones that haven't seen what i posted. i have installed on 5 different bikes the push rods i always keep some in stock. it fixes the problem for me 100% i do not consider it a band-aid. i consider it a perfect fix unless you would like to create a new transmission shaft with smaller ID. the bikes that i have down this to are in my riding group and we cruise at 95 mph on cruise control  thanks to the TTS tuner that allows us to do so.


buy it from
macomb county choppers
589 935 7433
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on May 09, 2019, 06:39:59 AM
Quote from: MakoHD on May 09, 2019, 06:25:56 AM
once again you guys can keep braking your head about this but i would like to state it again for the ones that haven't seen what i posted. i have installed on 5 different bikes the push rods i always keep some in stock. it fixes the problem for me 100% i do not consider it a band-aid. i consider it a perfect fix unless you would like to create a new transmission shaft with smaller ID. the bikes that i have down this to are in my riding group and we cruise at 95 mph on cruise control  thanks to the TTS tuner that allows us to do so.


buy it from
macomb county choppers
589 935 7433
:scratch: sorry this is the first post I've seen of the M8 transfer issue on this Forum - added later:  :oops: guess I didn't see ALL the posts  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on May 09, 2019, 08:35:58 AM
The "fat rod" is not a 100% fix.

I am the guy mentioned that used a UV dye kit.

While the following pic doesn't show the yellow tint the UV dye added to the trans fluid, what it does show is how high the primary fluid is on the clutch assembly. When I installed the "fat rod" I corrected the primary and transmission fluid levels and added the UV dye to only the transmission. I measured 10oz of transfer in about 100-150 miles.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 09, 2019, 02:02:15 PM
 Hotbo, Do you have a dog in this fight.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hotbo on May 10, 2019, 07:31:19 AM
Quote from: hd06 on May 09, 2019, 02:02:15 PM
Hotbo, Do you have a dog in this fight.

:wtf: I have a new 19 that is/was Transferring. I bought the fatrod from greg and it has fixed mine so far... Travis  :beer:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 10, 2019, 02:41:32 PM
the fat rod may stop the transfer, the vented primary may stop the transfer, BUT both are Band-Aids

the mainshaft has been the vent path for the primary since waaaayyyyyy back

cable operated clutches don't have the transfer problem, only the hydraulic clutches

so HD has caused the problem by creating a space where trannie lube can pool at the right end of the mainshaft and be pushed/sucked through into the primary

the cure to the problem is to remove that space, if there's no pool then there's nothing to transfer, the primary just vents as normal
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on May 10, 2019, 03:24:58 PM
Quote from: FSG on May 10, 2019, 02:41:32 PM
the fat rod may stop the transfer, the vented primary may stop the transfer, BUT both are Band-Aids

the mainshaft has been the vent path for the primary since waaaayyyyyy back

cable operated clutches don't have the transfer problem, only the hydraulic clutches

so HD has caused the problem by creating a space where trannie lube can pool at the right end of the mainshaft and be pushed/sucked through into the primary

the cure to the problem is to remove that space, if there's no pool then there's nothing to transfer, the primary just vents as normal

Sounds reasonable to me. Obviously Harley has been aware of the problem for some time. Seems one of the fixes was the white plastic button sleeve on the right side of the clutch push rod. Late December 2018 cvo's didn't have it, early 2019 did.
Didn't solve the problem with ALL the bikes but maybe helped slow it down a bit.
The vent on the primary relieved the negative pressure and kept the oil from being sucked down the main shaft.
Fixing the root cause would cost too much. Lots cheaper to do a 10c hose and drill a hole!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Nastytls on May 11, 2019, 04:26:30 AM
Would fixing the problem really cost that much? If the problem is as FSG states it is ( pooling oil ), couldn't they design a drain in at the bottom of where it's pooling so it goes back to the trans vs. down the main shaft? This doesn't help people like me with 17-18-19's but it fixes the problem going forward.

This is laughable, Indian is designing VVT in to their air cooled engines and HD can even figure out how to stop uncontrolled oil movement in theirs.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on May 11, 2019, 06:11:14 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on May 11, 2019, 04:26:30 AM
Would fixing the problem really cost that much? If the problem is as FSG states it is ( pooling oil ), couldn't they design a drain in at the bottom of where it's pooling so it goes back to the trans vs. down the main shaft? This doesn't help people like me with 17-18-19's but it fixes the problem going forward.

This is laughable, Indian is designing VVT in to their air cooled engines and HD can even figure out how to stop uncontrolled oil movement in theirs.

One of the known fixes, is to modify the inner trans cover to allow the trans fluid to drain back down to the transmission. Basically milling/grinding out a passage where the "pooling" will occur.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 11, 2019, 06:14:58 AM
Quote from: FSG on May 10, 2019, 02:41:32 PM
the fat rod may stop the transfer, the vented primary may stop the transfer, BUT both are Band-Aids

the mainshaft has been the vent path for the primary since waaaayyyyyy back

cable operated clutches don't have the transfer problem, only the hydraulic clutches

so HD has caused the problem by creating a space where trannie lube can pool at the right end of the mainshaft and be pushed/sucked through into the primary

the cure to the problem is to remove that space, if there's no pool then there's nothing to transfer, the primary just vents as normal
I agree but it should have been that way from day one. Surely they tested them, right? Rush to market and bring on the band-aids seems to be the way they operate now.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on May 11, 2019, 06:31:31 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on May 11, 2019, 04:26:30 AM
Would fixing the problem really cost that much? If the problem is as FSG states it is ( pooling oil ), couldn't they design a drain in at the bottom of where it's pooling so it goes back to the trans vs. down the main shaft? This doesn't help people like me with 17-18-19's but it fixes the problem going forward.

This is laughable, Indian is designing VVT in to their air cooled engines and HD can even figure out how to stop uncontrolled oil movement in theirs.
I see their 1200 rt has equaled the v rod hp/torque at 100lbs lighter bike. That's engineering at it's best. Should be a good seller. Still love the v rod but damn.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HDDOC on May 11, 2019, 07:08:32 AM
I have a 2019 Tri Glide and with the 1000 miles service done no oil transfer and now about 3300 on it still no oil transfer . I have talked to other Tri Glide owners that are aware of the transfer and they see none also. It maybe that the Trikes do not lean and for the the most part always level.  JMO   Doc
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on May 13, 2019, 05:00:17 PM
Does anyone have any pictures of the official MoCo vent hole as seen from the cavity side of the primary?
I'm interested in the actual location within the cavity.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on May 13, 2019, 06:20:11 PM
See reply 1411, it has pix of the instructions with hole location... https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1292053#msg1292053 (https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1292053#msg1292053)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on May 14, 2019, 03:53:05 PM
Thanks, I was hoping for a straight-on shot of one that's just been drilled. I'll guesstimate and plug a hole thru unless I can get my dealer to actually get me one I can install. Otherwise I'll make my own, nothing that critical about it. Just rather do it myself than screw around taking it back 3 times when they should just get you in and do it in one shot.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on May 14, 2019, 04:49:16 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on May 14, 2019, 03:53:05 PM
Thanks, I was hoping for a straight-on shot of one that's just been drilled. I'll guesstimate and plug a hole thru unless I can get my dealer to actually get me one I can install. Otherwise I'll make my own, nothing that critical about it. Just rather do it myself than screw around taking it back 3 times when they should just get you in and do it in one shot.

Let the dealer do it.
You'll get 2 qts of oil and new rings and gasket all under warranty.
JMHO
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HDDOC on May 15, 2019, 06:11:38 AM
I have no oil transfer on my 2019 Tri Glide I wonder if the dealer would install the vent kit with no problem with transfer.?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on May 15, 2019, 07:47:11 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on May 15, 2019, 06:11:38 AM
I have no oil transfer on my 2019 Tri Glide I wonder if the dealer would install the vent kit with no problem with transfer.?

Probably not. But why would you if it's not a problem?
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HDDOC on May 15, 2019, 08:16:52 AM
Just incase   LOL
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on May 15, 2019, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on May 15, 2019, 06:11:38 AM
I have no oil transfer on my 2019 Tri Glide I wonder if the dealer would install the vent kit with no problem with transfer.?
I read somewhere on another forum about a triglide owner on a cross country trip grenading his tranny because of the migration issue. I would keep a close eye on it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Reddog74usa on May 15, 2019, 12:45:45 PM
 :down: :down: :down: :angry:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HDDOC on May 17, 2019, 03:54:29 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on May 15, 2019, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on May 15, 2019, 06:11:38 AM
I have no oil transfer on my 2019 Tri Glide I wonder if the dealer would install the vent kit with no problem with transfer.?
I read somewhere on another forum about a triglide owner on a cross country trip grenading his tranny because of the migration issue. I would keep a close eye on it.

I am aware of the problem and do check the trans oil offten,   Thanks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on May 17, 2019, 05:43:49 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on May 17, 2019, 03:54:29 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on May 15, 2019, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on May 15, 2019, 06:11:38 AM
I have no oil transfer on my 2019 Tri Glide I wonder if the dealer would install the vent kit with no problem with transfer.?
I read somewhere on another forum about a triglide owner on a cross country trip grenading his tranny because of the migration issue. I would keep a close eye on it.

I am aware of the problem and do check the trans oil offten,   Thanks

It's ridiculous that you should have to do that.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on May 17, 2019, 05:54:35 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on May 17, 2019, 05:43:49 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on May 17, 2019, 03:54:29 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on May 15, 2019, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: HDDOC on May 15, 2019, 06:11:38 AM
I have no oil transfer on my 2019 Tri Glide I wonder if the dealer would install the vent kit with no problem with transfer.?
I read somewhere on another forum about a triglide owner on a cross country trip grenading his tranny because of the migration issue. I would keep a close eye on it.

I am aware of the problem and do check the trans oil offten,   Thanks

It's ridiculous that you should have to do that.
1000%  :agree:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HDDOC on May 18, 2019, 07:00:17 AM
I agree it is a pain but if it ever does transfer I know now there is a fix.   Thanks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on May 18, 2019, 07:56:47 AM
Quote from: harley_cruiser on March 08, 2018, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD, it does not need it, here is a drawing of how the centrifugal force pushes the fluid.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1164_zpskhcz5ozt.jpg.html)

The arrows represent how the fluid moves. The fluids are pushed to the widest part of the tube.
I made this to test how the fluid acts inside the rotating shaft, its made out of half inch pvc and has a half inch cpvc bushing inside. It spins at 2000 rpm and sits at about 25-30 degrees to make sure the theory works.

(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll49/autonews2/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg) (http://s285.photobucket.com/user/autonews2/media/Rocker%20Lockers/IMAG1162_zpsoajfywdz.jpg.html)

I'm trying out different shape bushing inside the tube, they are about an inch long and about a half inch from the end.
I'm using water as a test fluid, pouring it into the top opening, the water will flow right through when the motor is turned off, as soon as you turn it on the water is flung out the top end and will not go past the bushing insert.
For anyone interested I used Steve's bushing in the main shaft along with his little slinger on the push rod and all migration has ended.
By now it would normally be down 4 oz, but upon inspection this morning I have lost zero in 1200 miles or so.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on May 19, 2019, 09:29:28 PM
Milled trans cover, fat rod and AIM has, so far, cured my transfer issue.

I will keep monitoring fluid levels, but I think I have this problem licked. I am also under a firm OPINION that just doing the mill work on the trans cover will cure the problem alone. I am however, to busy/lazy to do all the testing to prove my theory.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on May 21, 2019, 04:54:03 AM
Quote from: bigcraig on May 19, 2019, 09:29:28 PM
Milled trans cover, fat rod and AIM has, so far, cured my transfer issue.

I will keep monitoring fluid levels, but I think I have this problem licked. I am also under a firm OPINION that just doing the mill work on the trans cover will cure the problem alone. I am however, to busy/lazy to do all the testing to prove my theory.
That's a good job Craig but wouldn't drilling a few holes on that same side for a poor mans fix basically do the same ? Just Curious.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on May 21, 2019, 11:19:03 AM
Quote from: metaliser on May 21, 2019, 04:54:03 AM
Quote from: bigcraig on May 19, 2019, 09:29:28 PM
Milled trans cover, fat rod and AIM has, so far, cured my transfer issue.

I will keep monitoring fluid levels, but I think I have this problem licked. I am also under a firm OPINION that just doing the mill work on the trans cover will cure the problem alone. I am however, to busy/lazy to do all the testing to prove my theory.
That's a good job Craig but wouldn't drilling a few holes on that same side for a poor mans fix basically do the same ? Just Curious.

Maybe, but I think removing as much material as possible is too beneficial. And drilling all those holes would be a pain unless you use a mill, but if you have access to a mill why not just create a much larger area for the trans fluid to go.

It is my opinion that the stock trans cover design, along with the transmission pushing fluid up into that dome cavity, high enough to be level with the push rod, and a small bit of primary vacuum is what causes the migration problem. I would bet a shiny new penny on it!

While it is terrible to say, I hope one of my local buddies finds he has this issue, and I will try and talk them into just letting me put a milled trans cover on it with none of the other known "possible" remedies.  (I have two more trans covers I am going to mill out, just to have around for friends.)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 21, 2019, 03:01:35 PM
  How come you don't just put a vent on the primary and be done with it.   :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 98fxstc on May 21, 2019, 11:45:28 PM
Quote from: hd06 on May 21, 2019, 03:01:35 PM
  How come you don't just put a vent on the primary and be done with it.   :nix:

I would guess pretty much the same amount of work for each fix
I would take the invisible fix any day of the week
and no vent to worry about clogging or allowing dirt, water in.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 22, 2019, 12:06:28 AM
Quote from: hd06 on May 21, 2019, 03:01:35 PM
  How come you don't just put a vent on the primary and be done with it.   :nix:

if it were me I'd fix the problem at the source rather than Bandaid it elsewhere
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: RedDog on May 22, 2019, 03:40:04 AM
Quote from: FSG on May 22, 2019, 12:06:28 AM

if it were me I'd fix the problem at the source rather than Bandaid it elsewhere

What is the source of the problem that needs to be fixed?  How do we fix it? Is your M8 transferring?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on May 22, 2019, 04:50:53 AM
Quote from: RedDog on May 22, 2019, 03:40:04 AM
Quote from: FSG on May 22, 2019, 12:06:28 AM

if it were me I'd fix the problem at the source rather than Bandaid it elsewhere

What is the source of the problem that needs to be fixed?  How do we fix it? Is your M8 transferring?

Start at the beginning of this thread. All explained in great detail.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on May 22, 2019, 12:14:30 PM
Quote from: hd06 on May 21, 2019, 03:01:35 PM
  How come you don't just put a vent on the primary and be done with it.   :nix:

Honestly, I might later down the road if the issue raises it's head again.

Also, while my dealer is aware of my problem, they can't get me in until June 11th. I also specifically ask about getting the vent kit installed, hell I gave them the part number, but they are unclear if the moco will just send the vent kit for them to install, or if I have to go thru the whole "correct fluids, come back in 1k miles" nonsense. I took matters into my own hands. Frankly, after researching the problem and paying attention to what other folks have done, I personally feel I have it fixed.

Right now my only real concern is with the AIM s/c, as I just read on another forum of one failing, it is pushing dot4 past the piston seal. And, I know of one other person who returned their AIM for replacement, as the  advertised "wider friction zone" returned to stock characteristics. AIM replaced it, and the new one is working as it should, but the issue is being noted by other folks as well.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 23, 2019, 02:18:33 AM
  What part number is it.  Thanks for the reply
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 23, 2019, 03:02:13 AM
INNER PRIMARY VENT SERVICE KIT    P/N  94100065

(https://i.imgur.com/DZWpIXm.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 23, 2019, 12:08:30 PM
 Harley should relieve these kits in in 2 or 3 weeks what i'm told. Harley Rep. drilled and taped my primary last september and put a vent hose and that fixed the problem that I had from the last 2 years on mine.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 23, 2019, 01:40:32 PM
to be found in the Section 

(https://i.imgur.com/d7FQY3B.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on May 24, 2019, 11:48:28 AM
 :up:  :up: :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on May 25, 2019, 03:23:45 PM
Harley could fix this problem on new bikes very easily by machining a taper in the main shaft end on the transmission side or just machine a counter sink about an inch in the tunnel creating a step in the tunnel. Centrifugal force will keep the oil from climbing that step and it would act as a dam regardless of if it is drawn in by a vacuum or just splashed in on the clutch push rod. Once oil gets inside the tunnel there is nothing to stop it and centrifugal force pushes it into the primary.
They should also mill a grove in the push rod just at the edge of the tunnel. This would act as a slinger keep oil from entering the tunnel via the push rod.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on May 26, 2019, 02:36:17 PM
Quote from: harley_cruiser on May 25, 2019, 03:23:45 PM
Harley could fix this problem on new bikes very easily by machining a taper in the main shaft end on the transmission side or just machine a counter sink about an inch in the tunnel creating a step in the tunnel. Centrifugal force will keep the oil from climbing that step and it would act as a dam regardless of if it is drawn in by a vacuum or just splashed in on the clutch push rod. Once oil gets inside the tunnel there is nothing to stop it and centrifugal force pushes it into the primary.
They should also mill a grove in the push rod just at the edge of the tunnel. This would act as a slinger keep oil from entering the tunnel via the push rod.
Common sense seems to be an option at MoCo these days.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Durwood on May 27, 2019, 04:40:29 AM
Here's a better illustration of what I did to mine.

http://rockerlockers.com/wordpress/?page_id=215
[attach=0,msg1299245]

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 27, 2019, 03:38:08 PM
 I prefer the primary vent it works but it's a bandaid.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: harley_cruiser on May 28, 2019, 02:06:56 AM
Quote from: hd06 on May 27, 2019, 03:38:08 PM
I prefer the primary vent it works but it's a bandaid.

While the vent has fixed your problem, the vent has not been 100%, that is good for you but not for the one guy who's bike didn't get fixed. The fat rod is the same, not a 100%.
The winner of the prize/prestige will be fast, easy, CHEAP and most important 100%.
And I am not talking about a fifty bikes but all the bikes having problems.
Stonecold came close but his fix did not meet all the criteria.
FSG hit it on the nose, you have to address the problem, oil entering the tunnel, you have to stop the oil but still let the primary breath.
Otherwise you will never hit 100%
That will be the winner.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on May 28, 2019, 03:18:46 AM
    I've read somewhere that somebody said that somebody tried the vent and it didn't work but I couldn't the actual post on the internet. I fought this problem for 2 years with Harley played there little game of maybe it's driver error. I could ride my bike 600 miles and only have 6 oz. in the trans. September of 18 I fronted a Harley Rep. at a bike rally he put the vent on my bike and problem solved. Where did you find the post on this problem .    Thanks 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on May 29, 2019, 08:09:14 PM
Pulled the transmission outer side cover and milled some oil drainback reliefs.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: blacktop37 on May 30, 2019, 05:52:03 AM
Looks great, I was curious why you thought the top area needed opened up, or am I looking at it wrong?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on May 30, 2019, 10:32:50 AM
Just wanted to unshroud the area.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on May 31, 2019, 02:13:23 AM
well the vent kit is now available to buy

(https://i.imgur.com/8eCK38g.png)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Maddo Snr on June 02, 2019, 11:35:34 PM
Quote from: FSG on May 31, 2019, 02:13:23 AM
well the vent kit is now available to buy

(https://i.imgur.com/8eCK38g.png)

Something funky here. Where did the previous part number go?
And why? (94100065)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on June 03, 2019, 12:16:26 AM
Part Numbers, Kit Numbers, ........   :SM:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 03, 2019, 06:17:02 AM
Quote from: FSG on June 03, 2019, 12:16:26 AM
Part Numbers, Kit Numbers, ........   :SM:

Just curious, how much are they charging for the hose?
And why buy the hose or kit when Harley will install everything including oil under warranty?
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on June 03, 2019, 06:29:33 AM
https://estore.chester-harley-davidson.co.uk/buy-hosevent-brthrprimary-26500027-p143198.html
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: ziggy24 on June 03, 2019, 08:49:17 AM
Quote from: MakoHD on May 09, 2019, 06:25:56 AM
once again you guys can keep braking your head about this but i would like to state it again for the ones that haven't seen what i posted. i have installed on 5 different bikes the push rods i always keep some in stock. it fixes the problem for me 100% i do not consider it a band-aid. i consider it a perfect fix unless you would like to create a new transmission shaft with smaller ID. the bikes that i have down this to are in my riding group and we cruise at 95 mph on cruise control  thanks to the TTS tuner that allows us to do so.


buy it from
macomb county choppers



I have 2091 FLHXS that had a transfer issue. I tried the fat rod approach, to no avail. Checked trans after 1000 or so miles. It was not on the stick. Drained the primary, got almost 48 oz of it. I went to the dealer to try and get it recorded, they wanted me to drop it of so they could record the oil, change it and have me come back within 50 miles of 1000 miles. Nothing like being inconvenienced after spending stupid money on a motorcycle. I do all my own work and can pretty much figure out that a magic fairy didn't steal the oil out of my transmission while I slept. The dealer  told me they need to see it for themselves, per the MoCo.

Maybe they figure I was bored and made up the whole thing!
589 935 7433
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 03, 2019, 10:23:34 AM
Quote from: JMHD on June 03, 2019, 09:29:24 AM
Quote from: rbabos on June 03, 2019, 06:35:01 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on June 03, 2019, 06:17:02 AM
Quote from: FSG on June 03, 2019, 12:16:26 AM
Part Numbers, Kit Numbers, ........   :SM:

Just curious, how much are they charging for the hose?
And why buy the hose or kit when Harley will install everything including oil under warranty?
:missed:
Because HD knows people will buy it and they can turn a profit from their mistakes, once again.
Ron
Yup, now the owners of 2017 models that are out of warranty have to install this kit on their own dime. :wtf:

My 17 cvo was doing the same transfer and the service bulletin said to drain and measure oil, refill, ride 5000 miles and repeat. Didn't want the warranty to run out, BUT if you have a paper trail, the factory must fix it.

My dealer offered a good deal on my 19 saying how all that was fixed on the new models, not a true statement on his part, but he was unaware of the issues.
The vent tube fixed the problem for ME and the others they did it for in our club.
As long as the oil stays where it's supposed to stay I'm ok.
Just wish the factory would admit they have a problem.
:gob:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: JMHD on June 03, 2019, 08:31:41 PM
Seen a primary vent tube on a 2019 Tri-glide that was fresh out of the crate. Running change possibly?  :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DTTJGlide on June 03, 2019, 10:08:05 PM
Yes all bikes are coming from the factory with the vent installed as of some time in May. The vent kit comes with O-ring for drain plug, a pattern for installation, & oh yeah that overpriced primary gasket that Moco says you need every time. They couldn't sell just the hose since they don't want you to believe you could reuse the gasket, wonder how many millions they've made on selling primary gaskets over the years :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: JMHD on June 04, 2019, 05:32:35 AM
Quote from: Dmerch on May 13, 2019, 05:00:17 PM
Does anyone have any pictures of the official MoCo vent hole as seen from the cavity side of the primary?
I'm interested in the actual location within the cavity.
I know this was asked a while ago, here are some pics.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 04, 2019, 06:57:03 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on June 03, 2019, 10:08:05 PM
Yes all bikes are coming from the factory with the vent installed as of some time in May. The vent kit comes with O-ring for drain plug, a pattern for installation, & oh yeah that overpriced primary gasket that Moco says you need every time. They couldn't sell just the hose since they don't want you to believe you could reuse the gasket, wonder how many millions they've made on selling primary gaskets over the years :emoGroan:

I think you can buy the hose separately. I don't have the part number handy but Harley wants $39.00 for that little piece of rubber tube!
For those that have a paper trail of transfer issues for warranty, let the dealer do the install. Much cheaper than having the customer do it and potentially voiding your warranty.
JMHO of course
:potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: yobtaf103 on June 04, 2019, 09:42:43 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on June 03, 2019, 08:12:43 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on June 03, 2019, 06:29:33 AM
https://estore.chester-harley-davidson.co.uk/buy-hosevent-brthrprimary-26500027-p143198.html

Wow!
$39.00 for a 10 cent hose!
:potstir:
Thats my local dealer here in UK, so be about $30
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on June 04, 2019, 10:06:13 AM
I don't have an M8 but am curious, Does the inner primary need to be pulled to install this "fix"?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 04, 2019, 12:03:28 PM
Quote from: klammer76 on June 04, 2019, 10:06:13 AM
I don't have an M8 but am curious, Does the inner primary need to be pulled to install this "fix"?

No
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on June 05, 2019, 11:57:48 AM
Sorry that I'm getting in at the end of this but are all M8's having this issue?  I have a 2018 RG ultra... 8K on it.  Gonna def check my fluid when I get home tonight.  Going on a 4500 mile ride next week to PEI
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: JMHD on June 05, 2019, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 05, 2019, 11:57:48 AM
Sorry that I'm getting in at the end of this but are all M8's having this issue?  I have a 2018 RG ultra... 8K on it.  Gonna def check my fluid when I get home tonight.  Going on a 4500 mile ride next week to PEI
Just about everyone I have worked on has had it to some degree, some worse than others. Just remember to check the trans on the side stand with the dipstick threaded in till the oring just touches the case (dipstick has markings)and the primary is checked with the bike straight up and level with the bottom of the pressure plate. Hope that helps and have a safe trip to the east coast. 👍👍
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 05, 2019, 05:01:17 PM
  I believe you check both with the bike upright.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: jamminhd2000 on June 05, 2019, 05:38:33 PM
Quote from: JMHD on June 05, 2019, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 05, 2019, 11:57:48 AM
Sorry that I'm getting in at the end of this but are all M8's having this issue?  I have a 2018 RG ultra... 8K on it.  Gonna def check my fluid when I get home tonight.  Going on a 4500 mile ride next week to PEI
Just about everyone I have worked on has had it to some degree, some worse than others. Just remember to check the trans on the side stand with the dipstick threaded in till the oring just touches the case (dipstick has markings)and the primary is checked with the bike straight up and level with the bottom of the pressure plate. Hope that helps and have a safe trip to the east coast. 👍👍
:agree: in Touring Models
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: JMHD on June 05, 2019, 07:04:43 PM
Quote from: jamminhd2000 on June 05, 2019, 05:38:33 PM
Quote from: JMHD on June 05, 2019, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 05, 2019, 11:57:48 AM
Sorry that I'm getting in at the end of this but are all M8's having this issue?  I have a 2018 RG ultra... 8K on it.  Gonna def check my fluid when I get home tonight.  Going on a 4500 mile ride next week to PEI
Just about everyone I have worked on has had it to some degree, some worse than others. Just remember to check the trans on the side stand with the dipstick threaded in till the oring just touches the case (dipstick has markings)and the primary is checked with the bike straight up and level with the bottom of the pressure plate. Hope that helps and have a safe trip to the east coast. 👍👍
:agree: in Touring Models
Sorry I forgot to mention that part, just touring models.🍻
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: JMHD on June 05, 2019, 07:10:01 PM
Quote from: hd06 on June 05, 2019, 05:01:17 PM
  I believe you check both with the bike upright.
5 speeds were straight up ,6 speeds on the jiffy stand.🍻
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on June 07, 2019, 05:36:08 AM
Guess what?  50oz in my Primary and down to about 10oz in the trans.  Called my dealer and they are getting me in tomorrow to do the update!  Hope it works well!  Glad I read this thread!  Thanks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: cbumdumb on June 08, 2019, 12:42:46 PM
My 19 RGU has and appointment on the 19th this month Trans was down a half quart in 3200 miles I hope the install the vent kit
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 08, 2019, 05:58:10 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 07, 2019, 05:36:08 AM
Guess what?  50oz in my Primary and down to about 10oz in the trans.  Called my dealer and they are getting me in tomorrow to do the update!  Hope it works well!  Glad I read this thread!  Thanks


It would be to your dealers benefit to educate them how to Change oils

Pull trans dipstick
Remove clutch cover (have a drain pan under)
Pull engine oil dipstick
THEN drain and measure each tank.
If they LOOK for any oil transfer the may see it BEFORE they just pull all 3 plugs and replace oils which is what most dealers do.
JMHO
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SluggoMagoo on June 10, 2019, 08:04:46 AM
I know this thread is a few months old. I purchased a 2017 Road Glide with 5k back in January from out of state about 45 miles north of me. I didn't take delivery on it for a couple of month and took my first road trip on it in April. After 600 miles the transmission started to get clunky and hard to shift into neutral. After getting it home, upon inspection of the transmission dip stick, there was no fluid on it. It took 7oz to get it to show. Long story short there's a dealer 1 mile from me so I took it to them. The primary cover was pulled and when it came off they found the missing transmission fluid. They told me that they're going to order a vent kit like you all are talking about. I'm really concerned about the previous 5k miles. It must have had a fluid change at 1k and either nobody notice the issue or the issues wasn't occurring. The Harley Dealer I purchased it from won't even talk to me about this problem so I'm dealing with the guy around the corner.  So I guess my question is, does this problem crop up all of a sudden or maybe a different riding style make it happen?!?! There's no service record about this issue on the VIN when I had it pulled.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on June 10, 2019, 05:56:35 PM
Quote from: SluggoMagoo on June 10, 2019, 08:04:46 AM
I know this thread is a few months old. I purchased a 2017 Road Glide with 5k back in January from out of state about 45 miles north of me. I didn't take delivery on it for a couple of month and took my first road trip on it in April. After 600 miles the transmission started to get clunky and hard to shift into neutral. After getting it home, upon inspection of the transmission dip stick, there was no fluid on it. It took 7oz to get it to show. Long story short there's a dealer 1 mile from me so I took it to them. The primary cover was pulled and when it came off they found the missing transmission fluid. They told me that they're going to order a vent kit like you all are talking about. I'm really concerned about the previous 5k miles. It must have had a fluid change at 1k and either nobody notice the issue or the issues wasn't occurring. The Harley Dealer I purchased it from won't even talk to me about this problem so I'm dealing with the guy around the corner.  So I guess my question is, does this problem crop up all of a sudden or maybe a different riding style make it happen?!?! There's no service record about this issue on the VIN when I had it pulled.

My CVO didn't start this migration problem for the first 6k miles, after that, I could correct fluid levels, ride 20 miles and 12-14oz would transfer then stop.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on June 12, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
I'm guessing the 20's will come with the vent standard. I just got my 19 and have a trip for VT to KS and back the end of July. Once I get 1k miles on it I'm going to check it real good. I wish you could simply go purchase the vent and do it yourself as I would just do it right off.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borrec on June 12, 2019, 03:41:17 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on June 12, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
I'm guessing the 20's will come with the vent standard. I just got my 19 and have a trip for VT to KS and back the end of July. Once I get 1k miles on it I'm going to check it real good. I wish you could simply go purchase the vent and do it yourself as I would just do it right off.

You can, Part # 26500027. I installed it yesterday.  :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on June 12, 2019, 05:27:15 PM
Quote from: borrec on June 12, 2019, 03:41:17 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on June 12, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
I'm guessing the 20's will come with the vent standard. I just got my 19 and have a trip for VT to KS and back the end of July. Once I get 1k miles on it I'm going to check it real good. I wish you could simply go purchase the vent and do it yourself as I would just do it right off.

You can, Part # 26500027. I installed it yesterday.  :up:

Sweet, I thought you had to bring it in and go through the whole process.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: cbumdumb on June 22, 2019, 11:15:35 AM
Well dealer installed vent kit ....I would like to know what else was done it never shifted this effortlessly, quite as well doesn't sound like a Harley any more .
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: yobtaf103 on June 22, 2019, 12:01:58 PM
probably activated the auto tensioner, while in there?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on June 22, 2019, 02:19:23 PM
Quote from: cbumdumb on June 22, 2019, 11:15:35 AM
Well dealer installed vent kit ....I would like to know what else was done it never shifted this effortlessly, quite as well doesn't sound like a Harley any more .
Maybe changed your primary fluid to the new juice?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on June 22, 2019, 02:27:51 PM
Dealer did mine this past week. Haven't checked the levels, but assume all is well.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on June 22, 2019, 02:28:38 PM
Without the excessive primary fluid level the clutch is now releasing properly.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: cbumdumb on June 22, 2019, 03:08:42 PM
Even when I set fluids my self it was harsh noisy
They change the blown clutch slave it was worse .
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: 6speed96 on June 23, 2019, 06:20:21 AM
I was at my dealer last week to pick up some parts and the service manager called me over to show me a bike they had in for service. I had asked him awhile back about trans oil migrating to the primary after I had one for service with that problem and he said hadn't heard of it. But now he showed me a vent kit that the company is supplying and they were installing on the primary to stop the migration.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on June 23, 2019, 07:24:17 AM
Why hasn't the real problem been addressed?  When all the first so called fixes came in looking at the excessively large size hole in the main shaft thinking that was the cause of the oil transfer.  That was only one part of the problem. [ maybe ]  The main cause of the problem is....... ready for this......... Pressure building up in the tranny forcing oil through the main shaft into the primary.  When HD and others came up with the bushing or bigger pushrods that shoved into the main shaft to make the hole smaller [ fill the hole ] to stop or lessen oil transfer, all it did was make pressure build even more. [ think of a squirt gun ]   That's why the problem can get even worse, more pressure, faster transfer.  The second and current fix HD has is to vent the primary along with taking out the first fix.  Why would HD take out the first fix along with the venting the primary?  They take it out because that will "still" allow presser to build even more and "still" transfer oil into the primary.  With just venting the primary only, that will greatly slow down pressure building in the tranny and transfer will be greatly reduced.  When oil pressure is vented to the primary, it will "still" take some oil mist from the tranny along with it and "still" show some sign of oil transfer....... hence bandaid.
Why not put a bigger, more efficient vent in the tranny top cover?  Over the last few years HD went from a 3/16 [ gas line size ] vent down to 1/8 [ vacuum line size ] in the top cover.  The bigger hose the more the vent or less resistance.  With a bigger vent in the top cover along with HD's first fix....... Fill the hole because we all know what big holes do, they leak, would totally fix this issue by reliving pressure at the SOURCE.  Not sure if filling the hole would be necessary but it wouldn't hurt.   As we all know HD has to meet the E5 EPA police requirements.  One think EPA hates is venting to the atmosphere and allows a very limited amount of venting.

Pressure building up in the tranny is whats causing the so called migration.  FIX THE PROBLEM...... and forget the bandaids!  But is HD allowed to do it? 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on June 23, 2019, 08:10:49 AM
Jobie, while I think your theory about the trans creating pressure has some merit. I am of the belief that the main problem is the design of the trans side cover and how much trans fluid is pushed against it. This causes the trans fluid to "pool up" high enough to the mainshaft hole where the push rod passes thru it.

Basically it is a combination of things.

Eliminate trans fluid from pooling up, add proper venting for the primary AND the transmission, problem solved.

Hell, I managed to completely stop the problem by modifying the trans cover, using the AIM s/c and the 'fat rod" with NO venting. (Note, that "fat rod" was tried first, it didn't work at all really, I left it in purely from sheer laziness and believe that I could put the stock clutch rod back in the bike and I would still not have a problem.)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on June 23, 2019, 08:31:22 AM
Quote from: bigcraig on June 23, 2019, 08:10:49 AM
Jobie, while I think your theory about the trans creating pressure has some merit. I am of the belief that the main problem is the design of the trans side cover and how much trans fluid is pushed against it. This causes the trans fluid to "pool up" high enough to the mainshaft hole where the push rod passes thru it.

Basically it is a combination of things.

Eliminate trans fluid from pooling up, add proper venting for the primary AND the transmission, problem solved.

Hell, I managed to completely stop the problem by modifying the trans cover, using the AIM s/c and the 'fat rod" with NO venting. (Note, that "fat rod" was tried first, it didn't work at all really, I left it in purely from sheer laziness and believe that I could put the stock clutch rod back in the bike and I would still not have a problem.)

So adding the Aim light force slave also aids in prevention aside from what it was designed to do?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 23, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
 The trans has vent on it there isn't any pressure pushing fluid to the primary.   :slap:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on June 23, 2019, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on June 23, 2019, 08:31:22 AM
Quote from: bigcraig on June 23, 2019, 08:10:49 AM
Jobie, while I think your theory about the trans creating pressure has some merit. I am of the belief that the main problem is the design of the trans side cover and how much trans fluid is pushed against it. This causes the trans fluid to "pool up" high enough to the mainshaft hole where the push rod passes thru it.

Basically it is a combination of things.

Eliminate trans fluid from pooling up, add proper venting for the primary AND the transmission, problem solved.

Hell, I managed to completely stop the problem by modifying the trans cover, using the AIM s/c and the 'fat rod" with NO venting. (Note, that "fat rod" was tried first, it didn't work at all really, I left it in purely from sheer laziness and believe that I could put the stock clutch rod back in the bike and I would still not have a problem.)

So adding the Aim light force slave also aids in prevention aside from what it was designed to do?

Yep, although that was not AIMs intention.

If you look at the AIM s/c compared to the stock HD s/c you will see the differences. The AIM is cup shaped, much like a piston on a brake caliper, thus it increases the volume of the area where the trans fluid pools up. The stock HD s/c has a diaphram that sits almost flush with the dish of an un-modified trans side cover.

So, with the AIM installed creating more volume in that area and modifying the trans side cover so that trans fluid has an easier path to return to the transmission, you eliminate the trans fluid from ever getting pushed high enough to the main shaft. If trans fluid can't make it to the hole in the main shaft, then it can't transfer over to the primary.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: bigcraig on June 23, 2019, 12:09:31 PM
Quote from: hd06 on June 23, 2019, 11:34:15 AM
The trans has vent on it there isn't any pressure pushing fluid to the primary.   :slap:

While the transmission is vented, the transmission to relieve pressure, in fact the trans vent is supposed to do double duty and be the vent for the primary as well.

The way it is supposed to work is primary vents thru main shaft hole where the clutch push rod lives to the transmission, transmission vent on top of the transmission vents for both.

Again, the real issue is the trans fluid that is pushed out around the main shaft bearing, it pools up in the convex area of the transmission side cover. Eliminate the pooling affect and transfer can't happen.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on June 23, 2019, 01:13:26 PM
Don't agree with the side cover theory.  If that was the case, why does the primary vent stop the oil migration to the primary using the same stock setup that believers are thinking is what's causing the problem.  If the problem wasn't pressure why does the vent work?  A vent will not change a thing if it wasn't pressure related.  Remember, some folks make and sell new style side covers with no "guarantee" in writing of stoping oil migration.  Strange, isn't that what the new cover is for?  Maybe not.  It's not rocket science, high pressure wins over low pressure.  It's like water or electricity, it takes the path of least resistance every time.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on June 23, 2019, 01:56:41 PM
  The trans has a vent it can't build up pressure, let me give you another one .  :slap:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on June 23, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
Then why does venting the primary work?  Because the tranny needs more venting to relieve more pressure.  That goes back to what I was saying before.......... Hd went from a 3/16 to a 1/8 vent in the top cover.  Just like water in a hoes, want more water get a bigger hose.  In this case, size does matter.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 23, 2019, 04:22:46 PM
Quote from: Jobie on June 23, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
Then why does venting the primary work?  Because the tranny needs more venting to relieve more pressure.  That goes back to what I was saying before.......... Hd went from a 3/16 to a 1/8 vent in the top cover.  Just like water in a hoes, want more water get a bigger hose.  In this case, size does matter.

Harley transmissions have had a vent since 1926 IIRC. The trans vent is to keep the inside at atmospheric pressure regardless of heat, altitude, etc.
there should be no positive pressure in the trans case, unless the vent is clogged, not likely.
The primary case will go into a negative pressure during some running conditions. Some are looking at the causes to be engine sprocket shaft seal allowing crankcase negative pressure to impact the primary case through the lip seal.
One fix a factory tech tried is a different seal and a double seal. Didn't really fix the issue but slowed it down a bit.
Cheapest and easiest fix was to relieve the NEGATIVE pressure in the primary case.
Harley doesn't have to do a massive recall (non safety related) AND they get to profit buy selling a rubber hose and directions to their loyal customers.
Win win for Harley.
Dad always said "follow the money"!
JMHO
:potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 23, 2019, 05:48:34 PM
Quote from: Jobie on June 23, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
Then why does venting the primary work?  Because the tranny needs more venting to relieve more pressure.  That goes back to what I was saying before.......... Hd went from a 3/16 to a 1/8 vent in the top cover.  Just like water in a hoes, want more water get a bigger hose.  In this case, size does matter.

If the transmission was building pressure, venting the primary should make it worse! Trust me, any sized vent on the tranny is enough. The tranny building pressure is just short of ridiculous. The gradual increase in heat and then pressure in the tranny is slow and minuscule.

Some speculate the engine is pulling air through the crankcase seal, causing a vacuum in the primary, pulling oil from the tranny. Makes sense if the primary vent works. Funny it does not pull primary lube into the engine.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 23, 2019, 06:10:41 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 23, 2019, 05:48:34 PM
Quote from: Jobie on June 23, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
Then why does venting the primary work?  Because the tranny needs more venting to relieve more pressure.  That goes back to what I was saying before.......... Hd went from a 3/16 to a 1/8 vent in the top cover.  Just like water in a hoes, want more water get a bigger hose.  In this case, size does matter.



If the transmission was building pressure, venting the primary should make it worse! Trust me, any sized vent on the tranny is enough. The tranny building pressure is just short of ridiculous. The gradual increase in heat and then pressure in the tranny is slow and minuscule.

Some speculate the engine is pulling air through the crankcase seal, causing a vacuum in the primary, pulling oil from the tranny. Makes sense if the primary vent works. Funny it does not pull primary lube into the engine.

One theory is the alternator "flings" whatever oil happens to make up far enough to the seal. Mostly air/vapor at that point.
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: JMHD on June 23, 2019, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on June 23, 2019, 05:48:34 PM
Quote from: Jobie on June 23, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
Then why does venting the primary work?  Because the tranny needs more venting to relieve more pressure.  That goes back to what I was saying before.......... Hd went from a 3/16 to a 1/8 vent in the top cover.  Just like water in a hoes, want more water get a bigger hose.  In this case, size does matter.

If the transmission was building pressure, venting the primary should make it worse! Trust me, any sized vent on the tranny is enough. The tranny building pressure is just short of ridiculous. The gradual increase in heat and then pressure in the tranny is slow and minuscule.

Some speculate the engine is pulling air through the crankcase seal, causing a vacuum in the primary, pulling oil from the tranny. Makes sense if the primary vent works. Funny it does not pull primary lube into the engine.
I wonder if the theory of the engine pulling air through the seal causing the transfer is directly related to the sumping problem? Sure seems like this engine is having difficulty breathing and is fairly choked up by the extremely small breather assemblies. Just a thought.  :scratch: :nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 23, 2019, 08:34:17 PM
Quote from: JMHD on June 23, 2019, 07:06:50 PM
I wonder if the theory of the engine pulling air through the seal causing the transfer is directly related to the sumping problem? Sure seems like this engine is having difficulty breathing and is fairly choked up by the extremely small breather assemblies. Just a thought.  :scratch: :nix:

Too small breathers would add to crankcase pressure, which also would likely stop any air being drawn from the primary. All engines have some blow by the rings, the crankcase vents are there to relive it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jobie on June 24, 2019, 05:57:44 AM
Two small breathers would not add to crankcase pressure.  FYI........ Vents relieve pressure not build it.  What goes on in the tranny and primary has nothing to do with the venting or pressure in the crankcase.  Crankcase pressure is caused by SUCK/SQUEEZE/BANG/BLOW... Google it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on June 24, 2019, 06:29:28 AM
TOO small, not TWO small.

Jobie, I have been rebuilding engines for 50 years. I know what a crankcase breather does. I am not certain some others here do.

Re-read my posts.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on June 24, 2019, 10:22:38 AM
All of this goes back to the original question of WHY the primary case goes into a negative pressure while running. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the transmission building "too much pressure" .
In theory, the gearbox vent will also vent the primary.
Think that when the primary goes into a negative pressure, whatever oil is pooled in the pushrod cavity will get pulled into the primary.
Thus the idea that the primary is influenced by the "suck" part of the 4 stroke process. How else would you explain how the negative pressure happens?
:slap:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on June 27, 2019, 05:23:32 AM
New, new update was done to my bike yesterday.  Primary vent installed and trans side seal.  Will be reporting back.  I typically ride 70 miles per day M/F so it should rear its head pretty quick.

One note though... For some reason, it shifts more quietly :scratch: on both up and downshift.  Maybe it's me...  Dunno.  But I did notice that when its cold the primary is relatively quiet but when warmed up if I blip the throttle slightly I hear a primary rattle now... :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: cbumdumb on June 27, 2019, 09:32:49 AM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 27, 2019, 05:23:32 AM
New, new update was done to my bike yesterday.  Primary vent installed and trans side seal.  Will be reporting back.  I typically ride 70 miles per day M/F so it should rear its head pretty quick.

One note though... For some reason, it shifts more quietly :scratch: on both up and downshift.  Maybe it's me...  Dunno.  But I did notice that when its cold the primary is relatively quiet but when warmed up if I blip the throttle slightly I hear a primary rattle now... :scratch:

My rgu up shifts almost silently now with breather tube installed in primary....almost a thousand miles so for and no change in oil levels or shift feel .
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on June 27, 2019, 02:22:30 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 27, 2019, 05:23:32 AM
  Primary vent installed and trans side seal. 

Do you mean vent installed and trans oil deflector removed? Or something else
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on June 27, 2019, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 27, 2019, 05:23:32 AM
New, new update was done to my bike yesterday.  Primary vent installed and trans side seal.  Will be reporting back.  I typically ride 70 miles per day M/F so it should rear its head pretty quick.

One note though... For some reason, it shifts more quietly :scratch: on both up and downshift.  Maybe it's me...  Dunno.  But I did notice that when its cold the primary is relatively quiet but when warmed up if I blip the throttle slightly I hear a primary rattle now... :scratch:


Primary cover has been off. You probably have new oil and perhaps the tensioner was adjusted. Seems reasonable.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HDDOC on June 28, 2019, 07:02:41 AM
I use Redline in my 2019 Tri and have no issues.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on July 01, 2019, 06:43:08 AM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on June 27, 2019, 02:22:30 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 27, 2019, 05:23:32 AM
  Primary vent installed and trans side seal. 

Do you mean vent installed and trans oil deflector removed? Or something else

I see a new Vent installed in the back top edge of the primary.  Oil deflector removed and updated seal installed in the Trans.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on July 01, 2019, 06:51:32 AM
Quote from: Sunny Jim on June 27, 2019, 04:01:31 PM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on June 27, 2019, 05:23:32 AM
New, new update was done to my bike yesterday.  Primary vent installed and trans side seal.  Will be reporting back.  I typically ride 70 miles per day M/F so it should rear its head pretty quick.

One note though... For some reason, it shifts more quietly :scratch: on both up and downshift.  Maybe it's me...  Dunno.  But I did notice that when its cold the primary is relatively quiet but when warmed up if I blip the throttle slightly I hear a primary rattle now... :scratch:


Primary cover has been off. You probably have new oil and perhaps the tensioner was adjusted. Seems reasonable.

Dunno..  :scratch:  I brought it back to them on Saturday and the noise int he primary when hot is "Normal" Compensator noise when I lightly blip the throttle..  LOL  Hey,  They own the bike for 18 more months of warany and I already have about 11,500 miles on it in 6 months.  I figure something else is going to fail on it with the amount I ride and it'll surely be back.. 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 10, 2019, 04:01:15 PM
If you are on a trip, nowhere near a lift and tools, and your M8 starts to transfer oil, will adding oil to the transmission as needed be okay?

Or will it continue to go into the primary and fill that up and possibly leak into the engine area?

My guess is it will stabilize at some point, maybe half full? The shifting would be a bit rough but at least you could complete the trip.

Or am I missing something?

I don't mind checking the transmission every night.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Coyote on July 10, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
I'm sure it will stop transferring once the primary gets full.  :oops:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 10, 2019, 04:11:42 PM
Would it literally fill up entirely?

Or just to the point that the primary and transmission are at the same level?

Could the oil migrate then to the cam chest?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Coyote on July 10, 2019, 04:23:00 PM
How could the oil migrate to the CAM chest?    :doh:

I doubt you'll fill the primary if you keep adding transmission oil but I doubt the clutch is gonna like being half buried in it. Why not find out if you are having this issue before heading out on a long trip?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 10, 2019, 04:36:26 PM
I was just thinking of what to do if the unexpected happens.

:smilep:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on July 10, 2019, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: Xyzzy on July 10, 2019, 04:36:26 PM
I was just thinking of what to do if the unexpected happens.

:smilep:

You drain the primary, you fill the transmission, and you get pissed off that you can't take a small trip without carrying a few quarts of different types of oil and having to work on your bike every night. Don't forget your tools.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on July 11, 2019, 05:25:53 AM
Maybe they'll go to unit construction, like the Sportsters, to fix this issue? Pri & trans will then share fluid- no problem!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Moparnut72 on July 11, 2019, 06:42:26 AM
Yeah that and go one more and get rid of the stinkin primary chain. Get rid of all the chains for that matter.
kk
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on July 11, 2019, 02:16:09 PM
Just installed the primary vent today; pretty easy job. Noticed a slight amount of transfer with the CVO 3-piece pushrod, though very little. This should solve it completely I think.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hd06 on July 11, 2019, 03:43:47 PM
 The vent is all you need.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on July 17, 2019, 03:55:17 AM
Ok,  Had Primary vent and trans seal installed 6/27 at dealer.  Its now 7/17 and about 1500 miles later and the dip stick level is exactly where it was when the trans was filed.  Fix worked for me.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SixShooter14 on July 17, 2019, 06:13:23 AM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on July 17, 2019, 03:55:17 AM
Ok,  Had Primary vent and trans seal installed 6/27 at dealer.  Its now 7/17 and about 1500 miles later and the dip stick level is exactly where it was when the trans was filed.  Fix worked for me.
:up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: crewchief25H on July 17, 2019, 05:45:49 PM
Quote from: VDeuce on July 11, 2019, 02:16:09 PM
Just installed the primary vent today; pretty easy job. Noticed a slight amount of transfer with the CVO 3-piece pushrod, though very little. This should solve it completely I think.

VD
Did you leave the CVO rod installed, or go back to oem?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on July 18, 2019, 07:55:00 AM
Quote from: crewchief25H on July 17, 2019, 05:45:49 PM
Quote from: VDeuce on July 11, 2019, 02:16:09 PM
Just installed the primary vent today; pretty easy job. Noticed a slight amount of transfer with the CVO 3-piece pushrod, though very little. This should solve it completely I think.

VD
Did you leave the CVO rod installed, or go back to oem?
Left the CVO rod in place.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 05:11:16 AM
I bought a 2019 RK about a week ago. I have previously owned three other M8 touring bikes that did not have the transfer issue. My new RK has a build date of 4/19 and did not have the vent installed from the factory.

I rode the bike home (210 miles) and checked the transmission. It was 12 ounces low. I refilled the transmission and ordered the vent kit from Surdyke. I'm sure the dealer would do it under warranty, but I prefer to do my own work. Plus all of the dealers "near" me are booked up solid. And, every time I have a dealer work on something they do a crappy job.

I continued to ride the bike. Every day I refilled the transmission. I was curious how the additional oil would affect the primary so I just let it build up in there. Surprisingly, the shifting was still pretty good, and finding neutral was easy. As a test, I rolled to a stop in sixth gear and I was able to downshift to first without loading the transmission, so that indicated to me that the additional oil in the primary was spinning the clutch.

Log:
12 ounces @ 210 miles
12 ounces @ 421 miles
12 ounces @ 700 miles
20 ounces @ 991 miles
14 ounces @ 1434 miles

At this point I received the vent kit. I drained the primary. I didn't measure the oil that came out, but it was a lot! The vent install went smooth. The only catch to the install is to make sure the vent is seated in the hole fully. I've attached a picture of the hole that is drilled in the inner primary.

So I took the bike 370 miles yesterday after the install and when I checked the transmission this morning the oil was right where it is supposed to be.

Theory: My previous bikes did not transfer oil. Perhaps they had a very minor (pinhole?) "leak" somewhere in the primary system that vented the primary?

It is crazy to have a few bikes that do not transfer any oil in 20,000+ miles each and then get a bike that transfers oil at the rate of 12 ounces every 200 miles!

[attach=0]
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Norton Commando on July 19, 2019, 05:34:26 AM
Thanks for the feedback. It sure sounds like venting the primary is the cure to stop transmission fluid from migrating into the primary.

I assume you drilled the vent hole from the primary side? Did you need an extra long drill bit?

Jason
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 05:52:39 AM
Yes, from the primary side.

I used a bunch of small bits working my way up to an 11/32" bit.

They were normal-length bits.

I should have just bought the vent tube. I didn't need the template or the gaskets. (Inspection cover, primary and drain bolt gaskets.)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on July 19, 2019, 08:06:49 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 05:52:39 AM
Yes, from the primary side.

I used a bunch of small bits working my way up to an 11/32" bit.

They were normal-length bits.

I should have just bought the vent tube. I didn't need the template or the gaskets. (Inspection cover, primary and drain bolt gaskets.)
No threading of the vent hole needed?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 10:14:07 AM
It is just a smooth weirdly-shaped plastic/rubber tube. You just snake it in and make sure it is seated properly.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Hossamania on July 19, 2019, 10:27:18 AM
So a guy could probably make his own pretty cheaply?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on July 19, 2019, 11:46:02 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 19, 2019, 10:27:18 AM
So a guy could probably make his own pretty cheaply?


Unlikely, but you COULD achieve the same results with a couple of fittings, length of hose, drill and tap!
I had all the parts ready to do my own, but got the factory tech to do it under warranty including primary gasket, o-ring, quart of oil. Cheaper than I could do it.
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on July 19, 2019, 12:11:29 PM
Quote from: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 10:14:07 AM
It is just a smooth weirdly-shaped plastic/rubber tube. You just snake it in and make sure it is seated properly.
Saw the beveled lip in the pic. I would just be a little concerned about fluid maybe seeping out from around the plastic over time.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: VDeuce on July 19, 2019, 01:12:36 PM
Kit is only around $30, so not too cost prohibitive and a whole lot cleaner install than with fittings.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on July 19, 2019, 01:18:28 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on July 19, 2019, 12:11:29 PM
Quote from: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 10:14:07 AM
It is just a smooth weirdly-shaped plastic/rubber tube. You just snake it in and make sure it is seated properly.
Saw the beveled lip in the pic. I would just be a little concerned about fluid maybe seeping out from around the plastic over time.


Not very likely as the hose and primary case is under a slight negative pressure.
The hose is pretty soft

:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 20, 2019, 04:50:17 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 05:11:16 AM
So I took the bike 370 miles yesterday after the install and when I checked the transmission this morning the oil was right where it is supposed to be.

I rode 400 miles yesterday. I checked the oil again this morning. It hasn't moved!

At this point I consider it a done deal.

:wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on July 23, 2019, 03:07:44 PM
    Just had a new 19 from dealer come in, it has the vent in the primary all ready in it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on July 23, 2019, 06:24:27 PM
Quote from: BUGLET on July 23, 2019, 03:07:44 PM
    Just had a new 19 from dealer come in, it has the vent in the primary all ready in it.
Dealer or factory installed?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on July 24, 2019, 05:08:20 AM
   Knowing the dealer I would said that is the way it came from the factory. But without being there I can say 100%.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Xyzzy on July 24, 2019, 05:32:25 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on July 20, 2019, 04:50:17 AM
Quote from: Xyzzy on July 19, 2019, 05:11:16 AM
So I took the bike 370 miles yesterday after the install and when I checked the transmission this morning the oil was right where it is supposed to be.

I rode 400 miles yesterday. I checked the oil again this morning. It hasn't moved!

At this point I consider it a done deal.

:wink:

I rode 625 miles on the interstate yesterday and the oil is still right where it is supposed to be!

:koolaid:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on July 24, 2019, 06:10:18 AM
Quote from: BUGLET on July 24, 2019, 05:08:20 AM
   Knowing the dealer I would said that is the way it came from the factory. But without being there I can say 100%.

Checked a cvo limited yesterday
Build date of 4/19
No vent hose.
They don't have anything newer on the floor.
:nix:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Buglet on July 24, 2019, 09:44:14 AM
       Build date on this one is 5/19.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SixShooter14 on July 24, 2019, 09:47:56 AM
I would be interested in hearing from Tomcat about whether he's received any with the hose pre-installed.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: pendo31 on July 25, 2019, 04:05:33 AM
My local dealer said that the new bikes coming in have the vent installed from the factory showing me one that they just received with it.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: hogpipes1 on July 26, 2019, 10:28:33 AM
 Well this tells me they H-D finally came out of the denial closet. :gob:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on July 26, 2019, 03:05:14 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on July 26, 2019, 10:28:33 AM
Well this tells me they H-D finally came out of the denial closet. :gob:

Maybe I missed it but I still haven't heard the factory explaining WHY this hose is needed and/or WHY the oil is moving.
??
:gob:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on July 27, 2019, 05:11:42 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on July 26, 2019, 03:05:14 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on July 26, 2019, 10:28:33 AM
Well this tells me they H-D finally came out of the denial closet. :gob:

Maybe I missed it but I still haven't heard the factory explaining WHY this hose is needed and/or WHY the oil is moving.
??
:gob:

They realized the primary creates a Neg pressure AKA Vacuum .  The vent eliminates the Vacuum thus "Not" drawing fluid front the clutch shaft into the primary.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on July 27, 2019, 05:25:17 AM
There is only one possible source for the vacuum in the primary imho: the crankcase. Most likely the press fittet spacer on which the crank shaft oil seal rides is not allways perfectly seated and airtight. A dealer here solved the problem by using a sealant between spacer and shaft (before the vent was released).

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on July 27, 2019, 06:12:32 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 27, 2019, 05:25:17 AM
There is only one possible source for the vacuum in the primary imho: the crankcase. Most likely the press fittet spacer on which the crank shaft oil seal rides is not allways perfectly seated and airtight. A dealer here solved the problem by using a sealant between spacer and shaft (before the vent was released).

Karl


I've always thought the sumping and transfer problem were related and the crankcase seal was the suspect (with K I S S methodology applied).  The seal makes sense but I have never had any opportunity to compare the M8 component fit so just followed the threads.  Several members here suggested using a gauge to track pressure changes but I never ever saw anyone do it and report their results.  Obviously the MOCO engineers did.!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on July 27, 2019, 06:35:46 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 27, 2019, 05:25:17 AM
There is only one possible source for the vacuum in the primary imho: the crankcase. Most likely the press fittet spacer on which the crank shaft oil seal rides is not allways perfectly seated and airtight. A dealer here solved the problem by using a sealant between spacer and shaft (before the vent was released).

Karl

Karl , can you elaborate please?
I, too, am beginning to think the Crankshaft seal may contribute to sumping. Given that this phenomenon has evolved over time( miles), there could be some truth in it. When I increased my displacement( after clocking up 6000 miles on same seal, bearings etc), the sumping was amplified dramatically. Considering there would be an increase in crank case pressure or vacuum, the seal may contribute.
The primary vent solves transfer but sumping remains.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on July 27, 2019, 09:21:30 AM
I have no conclusive idea how transfer and sumping could have a common root. The improved crankcase venting system of the M8 might contribute to the vacuum build up in the primary but should not affect the oil flow from crankcase to oil tank imho. The air in the crankcase is linked to the air cavity of the oil tank. So both have no differential pressure which could influence the pumping performance of the oil pump.

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on July 27, 2019, 10:35:41 AM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on July 27, 2019, 05:11:42 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on July 26, 2019, 03:05:14 PM
Quote from: hogpipes1 on July 26, 2019, 10:28:33 AM
Well this tells me they H-D finally came out of the denial closet. :gob:

Maybe I missed it but I still haven't heard the factory explaining WHY this hose is needed and/or WHY the oil is moving.
??
:gob:

They realized the primary creates a Neg pressure AKA Vacuum .  The vent eliminates the Vacuum thus "Not" drawing fluid front the clutch shaft into the primary.

I'm not too sure the "primary creates a Neg pressure "
I'm more inclined to believe what Karl noted about tracing the SOURCE of the vacuum to be the shaft seal.
I had talked to a factory tech who mentioned addressing that seal and trying different options to install a double lip seal, etc
The only way the primary can go to the vacuum state is when there is a vacuum applied to the primary. If the passage through the mainshaft is restricted (like with trans oil) the primary will suck the oil through the shaft before the passage is clear enough to let the negative pressure vent out the transmission vent as designed.
I see nothing either in the primary OR the trans that will make any pressure either negative or positive.
Just my 2cents
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Fat11Lo on July 28, 2019, 05:08:38 AM
Just my opinion but I have been following these transfer/sumping discussions for quite a while now. As far as the transfer issue goes IMO if the trans oil did not have the chance to collect at the slave cylinder end it would not transfer to the primary. A vent's purpose is to let the compartment breathe positive or negative pressure in or out. The oil that collects at the slave cylinder end effectively seals off the primary's means of breathing. So far the most successful "fixes" have either let the oil drain from the slave cylinder area or let the primary breathe on its own. Either way prevents the trans oil from sealing off the slave cylinder end and transferring into the primary. Go back to high school physics air pressure in a confined space will increase or decrease proportionate to temperature. think about what it means to breathe, we draw air in and exhale it out. breathing is a two part motion so why wouldn't this same principal apply.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on July 28, 2019, 09:42:45 AM
H-D has officialy explained that the rare transfer issues with the Twincam can be solved by a new crankshaft oil seal. So they committed that the negative crankcase pressure ist the source of the transfer problem with the Twincam. The design principles around the cranshaft seal are the same with the M8. I'm sure that the press fitted spacer combined with the higher negative crankcase pressure (better M8 venting system) and manufacturing tolerances can lead to an air leak between crankshaft and spacer. A dealer here successfully stopped the transfer on several bikes by sealing the gap.

Karl
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on July 28, 2019, 09:53:13 AM
Maybe I am crazy, but stopping the vacuum leak between the engine and primary seems like a better idea than just adding a breather on the primary, and allowing the leak to continue.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on July 28, 2019, 04:21:59 PM
So I had the vent installed on my 19 at 500 miles. I did the 1k service myself at about 1400 miles. Now at 2k miles I just checked the tranny fluid and the stick is dry. I just double checked my receipt for the warranty work and only see the vent kit and 1 qt of syn3 listed on the parts used. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being a 19 I believe it should have had the deflector installed which is supposed to be removed (at minimum, checked to see if it's there). If they indeed had checked to verify and/or had removed it, wouldn't there be exhaust gaskets and tranny side cover gasket listed on the parts list? I read that leaving the oil deflector installed with the vent could cause the transfer to continue. I'm headed out Tuesday for a 4K mile trip and was hoping to not have to worry about this crap.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on July 29, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
Have you reached around the back side of the primary to make sure the vent tube is actually there?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on July 29, 2019, 10:36:52 AM
Quote from: Dmerch on July 29, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
Have you reached around the back side of the primary to make sure the vent tube is actually there?

It's there, I checked it out when I picked it up.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Dmerch on July 29, 2019, 10:47:28 AM
Ok, then I got nothing...
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on July 29, 2019, 01:37:04 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 28, 2019, 04:21:59 PM
So I had the vent installed on my 19 at 500 miles. I did the 1k service myself at about 1400 miles. Now at 2k miles I just checked the tranny fluid and the stick is dry. I just double checked my receipt for the warranty work and only see the vent kit and 1 qt of syn3 listed on the parts used. Correct me if I'm wrong, but being a 19 I believe it should have had the deflector installed which is supposed to be removed (at minimum, checked to see if it's there). If they indeed had checked to verify and/or had removed it, wouldn't there be exhaust gaskets and tranny side cover gasket listed on the parts list? I read that leaving the oil deflector installed with the vent could cause the transfer to continue. I'm headed out Tuesday for a 4K mile trip and was hoping to not have to worry about this crap.

If it was me and leaving tomorrow I'd put some trans fluid in, blow through the new rubber tube to see if it's blocked, ride out and hit the next Harley dealer on your route and have them tell you "why" it's not working.
OR take it back to your dealer today and ask for a loaner bike.
Good luck
:potstir:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on July 29, 2019, 06:06:32 PM
So I went to the dealer and bought a qt of gear lube to bring with me. While there I stopped into service and asked about not seeing any side cover gasket on the warranty parts list and asked if they indeed checked like the instructions advised to. After a round-about discussion regarding the existence of the oil deflector being a standard running change in the 19 model year that I won't get into here, they conceded and got me in and checked for the deflector.....low and behold it was still there. They removed it, buttoned it up and I was on my way. Im still bringing the gear lube (and 1 qt of engine oil) with me just in case. I'll be on my tomorrow morning with a little peace of mind.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 29, 2019, 06:19:40 PM
well who'd of thunk it   :SM:

just as well you knew what the Service Bulletin was all about   :teeth:

enjoy the trip   :chop:   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on July 30, 2019, 03:52:16 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 28, 2019, 09:42:45 AM
H-D has officialy explained that the rare transfer issues with the Twincam can be solved by a new crankshaft oil seal. So they committed that the negative crankcase pressure ist the source of the transfer problem with the Twincam. The design principles around the cranshaft seal are the same with the M8. I'm sure that the press fitted spacer combined with the higher negative crankcase pressure (better M8 venting system) and manufacturing tolerances can lead to an air leak between crankshaft and spacer. A dealer here successfully stopped the transfer on several bikes by sealing the gap.

Karl


Confirmation that they "say" it's the seal.  Why then doesn't the softail transfer?  Different seal assembly or crankcase volume ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on July 30, 2019, 04:26:50 AM
Quote from: kd on July 30, 2019, 03:52:16 AM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 28, 2019, 09:42:45 AM
H-D has officialy explained that the rare transfer issues with the Twincam can be solved by a new crankshaft oil seal. So they committed that the negative crankcase pressure ist the source of the transfer problem with the Twincam. The design principles around the cranshaft seal are the same with the M8. I'm sure that the press fitted spacer combined with the higher negative crankcase pressure (better M8 venting system) and manufacturing tolerances can lead to an air leak between crankshaft and spacer. A dealer here successfully stopped the transfer on several bikes by sealing the gap.

Karl


Confirmation that they "say" it's the seal.  Why then doesn't the softail transfer?  Different seal assembly or crankcase volume ?

Tranfer can only occur with the hydraulic clutch actuator where enough oil is provided at the tranny side of the mainshaft.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on July 30, 2019, 05:27:24 AM
Did they
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 29, 2019, 06:06:32 PM
So I went to the dealer and bought a qt of gear lube to bring with me. While there I stopped into service and asked about not seeing any side cover gasket on the warranty parts list and asked if they indeed checked like the instructions advised to. After a round-about discussion regarding the existence of the oil deflector being a standard running change in the 19 model year that I won't get into here, they conceded and got me in and checked for the deflector.....low and behold it was still there. They removed it, buttoned it up and I was on my way. Im still bringing the gear lube (and 1 qt of engine oil) with me just in case. I'll be on my tomorrow morning with a little peace of mind.


Did they check/set fluid levels in both the trans and primary, too?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Sunny Jim on July 30, 2019, 06:15:41 AM
Here we go again.
Has anyone put a vacuum gauge on a primary vent?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: shysterorange on July 30, 2019, 06:22:22 AM
Wouldn't a good crankcase vent, eliminate the negative primary pressure which is drawing tranny oil? Feuling or A1?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PFWiz on July 30, 2019, 07:26:33 AM
Had the vent mod installed under warranty on my 2018 CVO Limited 3 weeks ago after discovering my tranny dipstick was dry. Just got back from a 4800 mile ride and it appears that my transfer issue has been solved.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on July 30, 2019, 07:27:30 AM
But having a slight vacuum in the engine crankcase is a good thing.

I still wonder why not fix the leak between the engine and primary? :idunno:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on July 30, 2019, 08:21:29 AM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 29, 2019, 06:06:32 PM
So I went to the dealer and bought a qt of gear lube to bring with me. While there I stopped into service and asked about not seeing any side cover gasket on the warranty parts list and asked if they indeed checked like the instructions advised to. After a round-about discussion regarding the existence of the oil deflector being a standard running change in the 19 model year that I won't get into here, they conceded and got me in and checked for the deflector.....low and behold it was still there. They removed it, buttoned it up and I was on my way. Im still bringing the gear lube (and 1 qt of engine oil) with me just in case. I'll be on my tomorrow morning with a little peace of mind.
Unbelievable what some of these dealerships do. I swear, most of the old time actual mechanics are gone, just kids bolting on parts nowadays.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Karl H. on July 30, 2019, 10:35:58 AM
Right! And dealing with liquid sealants on the production line is a mess. It also makes it difficult to exchange a worn spacer in the shop.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on July 30, 2019, 11:05:16 AM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on July 30, 2019, 08:48:44 AM

Follow the money! It's a 25c hose
Exactly. If you can cut corners and save $100 per bike and you build 200k bikes that's $20 million to the bottom line.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on July 30, 2019, 02:47:06 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on July 30, 2019, 10:35:58 AM
Right! And dealing with liquid sealants on the production line is a mess. It also makes it difficult to exchange a worn spacer in the shop.

No sealant required. A chamfer on the inside of the spacer and a small cross section o-ring will seal the spacer to the shaft. No added parts other than a 25 cent o-ring.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on July 30, 2019, 04:26:41 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on July 30, 2019, 07:27:30 AM
But having a slight vacuum in the engine crankcase is a good thing.

I still wonder why not fix the leak between the engine and primary? :idunno:

why not fix the right side hyd clutch slave area that is allowing the oil to build up  :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on July 30, 2019, 06:19:18 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on July 30, 2019, 05:27:24 AM
Did they
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 29, 2019, 06:06:32 PM
So I went to the dealer and bought a qt of gear lube to bring with me. While there I stopped into service and asked about not seeing any side cover gasket on the warranty parts list and asked if they indeed checked like the instructions advised to. After a round-about discussion regarding the existence of the oil deflector being a standard running change in the 19 model year that I won't get into here, they conceded and got me in and checked for the deflector.....low and behold it was still there. They removed it, buttoned it up and I was on my way. Im still bringing the gear lube (and 1 qt of engine oil) with me just in case. I'll be on my tomorrow morning with a little peace of mind.


Did they check/set fluid levels in both the trans and primary, too?

They did set the levels as appropriate. Did 400+ miles today on my first leg and all seems well. Didn't check the levels again, I'll do so after tomorrow's leg. The Muller Hydro Clutch is working very well too.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on July 31, 2019, 09:39:43 AM
 :up:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: cbumdumb on July 31, 2019, 03:00:53 PM
1500 miles trans at same level and this is stop and go,back and forth to work. Not saying it is fixed but so far so good. :sheep:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on July 31, 2019, 06:11:46 PM
Checked the trans fluid tonight after 850 miles into the trip and all is well.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on July 31, 2019, 07:13:53 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 31, 2019, 06:11:46 PM
Checked the trans fluid tonight after 850 miles into the trip and all is well.

Nice when everything is working properly huh?
Now that I've got some miles with your same setup (hydro clutch and primary vent) my oil migration has stopped and the touchy clutch has been addressed.
It's actually a fun bike to ride as it should be!
:missed:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: jamminhd2000 on July 31, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 31, 2019, 06:11:46 PM
Checked the trans fluid tonight after 850 miles into the trip and all is well.
What was done to your bike to solve migration problem? Just venting primary? Thanks....jimmy
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jaycee1964 on August 01, 2019, 04:49:19 AM
This will end up being a full blown recall sooner or later.  Someone will run their trans dry, lock it up due to lack of lube and wipe out.  NTSB will chime in and "In the interest of rider safety the MOCO will do the mods free of charge!"..... :emsad:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on August 01, 2019, 06:38:52 AM
Quote from: Jaycee1964 on August 01, 2019, 04:49:19 AM
This will end up being a full blown recall sooner or later.  Someone will run their trans dry, lock it up due to lack of lube and wipe out.  NTSB will chime in and "In the interest of rider safety the MOCO will do the mods free of charge!"..... :emsad:
I heard of a trike rider who already grenaded his tranny. Just had the bike "serviced" at his local dealer before heading out on a cross country trip. Luckily he didn't wipe out. Just ended up stuck out in the middle of BFE.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on August 01, 2019, 06:45:59 PM
Quote from: jamminhd2000 on July 31, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 31, 2019, 06:11:46 PM
Checked the trans fluid tonight after 850 miles into the trip and all is well.
What was done to your bike to solve migration problem? Just venting primary? Thanks....jimmy

Well first they installed the vent, but it was still migrating a little and I found that the dealer didn't follow the instructions on the kit to remove the oil deflector on the mainshaft. Once they removed it, it has been fine. I also run the Muller Hydro Clutch, not sure if that helps or not. Does make it much nicer to ride though.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on August 01, 2019, 06:47:52 PM
Quote from: HOGMIKE on July 31, 2019, 07:13:53 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on July 31, 2019, 06:11:46 PM
Checked the trans fluid tonight after 850 miles into the trip and all is well.

Nice when everything is working properly huh?
Now that I've got some miles with your same setup (hydro clutch and primary vent) my oil migration has stopped and the touchy clutch has been addressed.
It's actually a fun bike to ride as it should be!
:missed:

Yes, a lot better to ride. We are now in St. Charles, MO and have logged about 1200 miles and it has been great.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 04, 2019, 08:25:46 AM
The vent is still a bandaid to two other possible flaws in the same area that can cause the same condition. Vent is the easiest work around for now to mask it. I'm not going to comment on it, however. The MoCo can fix their own "Potty mouth" without using other peoples ideas for solutions.
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: DTTJGlide on August 04, 2019, 10:21:05 AM
Sadly the engineers don't have the final say on things, I feel they know what the problems are, but management & the bean counters ask for a range of possible fixes & the  choice comes down to cost. They tried the plastic plug first because it was the least costly, they may have been told it wasn't a sure fix, but they'll try the cheapest first anyway.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 04, 2019, 10:25:07 AM
QuoteThe vent is still a bandaid ................................ 

:agree:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 04, 2019, 10:49:54 AM
And mean while more motorcycles are hitting the roads with no "real" repair or update, just the band aid.

It makes me wonder if the bean counters would have let the engineers do there job three years ago that the real problem would be cured and at less cost when you count the time and energy wasted.

Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rbabos on August 04, 2019, 04:34:52 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 04, 2019, 10:49:54 AM
And mean while more motorcycles are hitting the roads with no "real" repair or update, just the band aid.

It makes me wonder if the bean counters would have let the engineers do there job three years ago that the real problem would be cured and at less cost when you count the time and energy wasted.
Don't forget improved M8 reputation as well. Last I checked they are in business to sell bikes and all of this crap isn't helping that. Speaking of engineers, wonder who designed this cluster fk for battery R&R?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v46lis2gGho
Ron
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on August 04, 2019, 05:11:04 PM
Quote from: rbabos on August 04, 2019, 04:34:52 PM
Don't forget improved M8 reputation as well. Last I checked they are in business to sell bikes and all of this crap isn't helping that. Speaking of engineers, wonder who designed this cluster fk for battery R&R?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v46lis2gGho
Ron

Damn near as bad as a BMW! :hyst:

I wonder where that negative terminal screw went? Down into the oil tank? :banghead:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 04, 2019, 06:46:50 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on August 04, 2019, 05:11:04 PM

I wonder where that negative terminal screw went? Down into the oil tank? :banghead:

yeppers

if'n the dip stick needs to be removed the oil tank needs a condom or a flush fitting plug

not covering it is just asking for trouble 
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Rockout Rocker Products on August 04, 2019, 06:49:05 PM
Assembly is the reverse of disassembly  :hyst:

I'm guessing those clips don't jump back on there as easily as they come off.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SixShooter14 on August 08, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
FWIW, I just saw a video from Sturgis that showed a 2019 Street Glide 114 that had the primary vent tube pre-installed.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on August 08, 2019, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on August 08, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
FWIW, I just saw a video from Sturgis that showed a 2019 Street Glide 114 that had the primary vent tube pre-installed.

I've read that 5/19 and after build dates came with the vent.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on August 09, 2019, 01:34:49 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on August 08, 2019, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on August 08, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
FWIW, I just saw a video from Sturgis that showed a 2019 Street Glide 114 that had the primary vent tube pre-installed.

I've read that 5/19 and after build dates came with the vent.
Was roaming around the local dealer this AM looking to see if any on the floor had the vent. Nope. Salesman saw me and asked what I was looking for. I told him primary vents. He said OK and walked away. Think he knew what I was talking about?  :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SixShooter14 on August 09, 2019, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on August 09, 2019, 01:34:49 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on August 08, 2019, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on August 08, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
FWIW, I just saw a video from Sturgis that showed a 2019 Street Glide 114 that had the primary vent tube pre-installed.

I've read that 5/19 and after build dates came with the vent.
Was roaming around the local dealer this AM looking to see if any on the floor had the vent. Nope. Salesman saw me and asked what I was looking for. I told him primary vents. He said OK and walked away. Think he knew what I was talking about?  :scratch:
That's pretty funny...and sad
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Pete_Vit on August 12, 2019, 06:03:16 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on August 09, 2019, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on August 09, 2019, 01:34:49 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on August 08, 2019, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on August 08, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
FWIW, I just saw a video from Sturgis that showed a 2019 Street Glide 114 that had the primary vent tube pre-installed.

I've read that 5/19 and after build dates came with the vent.
Was roaming around the local dealer this AM looking to see if any on the floor had the vent. Nope. Salesman saw me and asked what I was looking for. I told him primary vents. He said OK and walked away. Think he knew what I was talking about?  :scratch:
That's pretty funny...and sad
so if you buy a bike on the dealership floor and it does not have the vent, are they going to charge you to install it? part of the 'DEALER PREP'  :emoGroan:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on August 12, 2019, 09:47:17 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on August 12, 2019, 06:03:16 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on August 09, 2019, 01:49:18 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on August 09, 2019, 01:34:49 PM
Quote from: road-dawgs1 on August 08, 2019, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on August 08, 2019, 05:28:49 PM
FWIW, I just saw a video from Sturgis that showed a 2019 Street Glide 114 that had the primary vent tube pre-installed.

I've read that 5/19 and after build dates came with the vent.
Was roaming around the local dealer this AM looking to see if any on the floor had the vent. Nope. Salesman saw me and asked what I was looking for. I told him primary vents. He said OK and walked away. Think he knew what I was talking about?  :scratch:
That's pretty funny...and sad
so if you buy a bike on the dealership floor and it does not have the vent, are they going to charge you to install it? part of the 'DEALER PREP'  :emoGroan:

That would be sad. However, if it is a migrator it would be done under warranty.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: grizbo on August 13, 2019, 04:29:32 PM
Old HTT member but new guy here. Wife just got a new FLRT (01/19 build) and we're wondering what the chances are of dealing with this migration issue. I've been fully aware of it the last few weeks after following this thread, but haven't seen any stats on how common it is overall on the M8 bikes. After finishing with the finance dude I asked the service manager and he said they've seen it only a few times...so pretty rare. Anybody know %-ages? Really hope he's right!
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: borrec on August 13, 2019, 04:58:50 PM
Quote from: grizbo on August 13, 2019, 04:29:32 PM
Old HTT member but new guy here. Wife just got a new FLRT (01/19 build) and we're wondering what the chances are of dealing with this migration issue. I've been fully aware of it the last few weeks after following this thread, but haven't seen any stats on how common it is overall on the M8 bikes. After finishing with the finance dude I asked the service manager and he said they've seen it only a few times...so pretty rare. Anybody know %-ages? Really hope he's right!

Must be happening enough that Harley is now shipping bikes with Primary vent.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: kd on August 13, 2019, 05:07:38 PM
Only a few times too many AFAIC.  This has been going on since the inception of the M8 touring bikes.  It appears there is now a cheap bandaid repair to mask the problem.  How many M8 touring bikes is the dealer seeing?  How many have lost use of their new motorcycles waiting for a remedy?  How many are out there running around undetected because "who checks their transmission and primary levels every few hundred miles or less"?     :scratch:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 13, 2019, 08:11:37 PM
QuoteI asked the service manager and he said they've seen it only a few times.

well he's towing the Party (HD) Line with that "..  seen it only a few times."

does your wifes FLRT have a vent tube off the primary ?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: grizbo on August 14, 2019, 05:47:36 AM
No vent tube (yet!), but as I understand only those built after May 1 do...correct me if wrong. We got a decent discount since they wanna move 19s so willing to chase this if necessary. I agree its BS though, and thought it sucked they lied about it. Definitely not good for the tranny to operate dry so we'll monitor the level very closely.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: klammer76 on August 14, 2019, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: grizbo on August 13, 2019, 04:29:32 PM
Old HTT member but new guy here. Wife just got a new FLRT (01/19 build) and we're wondering what the chances are of dealing with this migration issue. I've been fully aware of it the last few weeks after following this thread, but haven't seen any stats on how common it is overall on the M8 bikes. After finishing with the finance dude I asked the service manager and he said they've seen it only a few times...so pretty rare. Anybody know %-ages? Really hope he's right!
They all say that  :wink:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on August 14, 2019, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: grizbo on August 13, 2019, 04:29:32 PM
Old HTT member but new guy here. Wife just got a new FLRT (01/19 build) and we're wondering what the chances are of dealing with this migration issue. I've been fully aware of it the last few weeks after following this thread, but haven't seen any stats on how common it is overall on the M8 bikes. After finishing with the finance dude I asked the service manager and he said they've seen it only a few times...so pretty rare. Anybody know %-ages? Really hope he's right!

Ride a few miles, pull the trans dipstick and see if there's any oil on it.
Repeat as necessary up to 5k miles and check along the way to see when and if and how much is migrating.
As soon as you get a dry dipstick take it to the dealer and have them install the vent hose kit.
:gob:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: metaliser on August 15, 2019, 03:47:57 AM
From what I just heard, if you have transfer now, just tell the dealer and they will fix without a fuss, or at least without all the fill up, bring it back crap.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: stro1965 on August 15, 2019, 10:01:29 PM
I had transfer in the first 500 miles on my new '19. The selling dealer wanted to play games and beat around the bush so I went to a different one, he ordered the vent kit that day and it was installed 3 days later. I then called the selling dealership to tell them that their competition took care of me.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: HogMike on August 16, 2019, 07:02:15 AM
Quote from: stro1965 on August 15, 2019, 10:01:29 PM
I had transfer in the first 500 miles on my new '19. The selling dealer wanted to play games and beat around the bush so I went to a different one, he ordered the vent kit that day and it was installed 3 days later. I then called the selling dealership to tell them that their competition took care of me.

Just like my new one!
Sometimes you have to "educate " the dealer to a real problem. The end customer is the survival for the dealership. It's hard to run a company with no repeat customers!
If you can get the service manager to LOOK for the problem AND run it up the ladder AND get a fix either temporary or permanent it really helps with customer relations.
JME :chop:
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 21, 2019, 07:52:58 PM
well now that the 2020's have been released anyone wanting to do the Primary Vent themselves can just get the Hose (Vent) rather than the Vent Kit

Hose  26500026   $3.xx

Vent Kit  26500027   $37.xx

Destructions (https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document-pdf-print/1280946960640898220/94100065_1297750_en_US.blaise)
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on August 22, 2019, 03:20:14 AM
Quote from: FSG on August 21, 2019, 07:52:58 PM
well now that the 2020's have been released anyone wanting to do the Primary Vent themselves can just get the Hose (Vent) rather than the Vent Kit

Hose  26500026   $3.xx

Vent Kit  26500027   $37.xx

Sooooo that means the template was worth $34?  :hyst: In all seriousness, this is a good deal for those that reuse the primary cover gasket and save a few bucks.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: msnyder on August 22, 2019, 06:36:13 AM
   Tried to look up the hose only #.. I was wondering if they would still include the template?
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: FSG on August 22, 2019, 11:18:24 AM
Quote from: msnyder on August 22, 2019, 06:36:13 AM
   Tried to look up the hose only #.. I was wondering if they would still include the template?

template will only be in the kit

BUT there's enough info around on it that you could print your own

IMO you wont need it
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: msnyder on August 23, 2019, 05:00:35 AM
   Thank you.  Max
   
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PFWiz on August 23, 2019, 07:09:04 AM
My CVO did not migrate until it had about 7500 plus miles on it. Got the vent kit installed (under warranty) and went on a 4800 mile ride. All the fluid is still where it belongs....
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jfab6969 on August 28, 2019, 04:21:02 PM
Does anyone who has installed the kit themselves know if all the 18's have the oil deflector in the trans? I just picked up a used 18 CVO and purchased the kit as a preventative measure. Just trying to figure out if I need to pull the trans cover off or not. I do not see a deflector in the parts phische.
Thanks
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: road-dawgs1 on August 28, 2019, 04:40:45 PM
Quote from: Jfab6969 on August 28, 2019, 04:21:02 PM
Does anyone who has installed the kit themselves know if all the 18's have the oil deflector in the trans? I just picked up a used 18 CVO and purchased the kit as a preventative measure. Just trying to figure out if I need to pull the trans cover off or not. I do not see a deflector in the parts phische.
Thanks

The oil deflector came standard on the 19's. An 18 would only have it if it was installed as one of the earlier attempts at a fix.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jfab6969 on August 28, 2019, 05:08:16 PM
Thank you
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: dogger on September 02, 2019, 08:26:21 AM
IronButt70, I did the same thing. Out of all the bikes in two dealerships only one had what looked like a rubber vent hose of some kind. The sales guy also asked what I was looking for. After I told him, he tried to BS me into believing the problem was nipped in the budd. I'm gonna wait till this is properly taken care of before I spend one dime.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: IronButt70 on September 02, 2019, 01:45:51 PM
Quote from: dogger on September 02, 2019, 08:26:21 AM
IronButt70, I did the same thing. Out of all the bikes in two dealerships only one had what looked like a rubber vent hose of some kind. The sales guy also asked what I was looking for. After I told him, he tried to BS me into believing the problem was nipped in the budd. I'm gonna wait till this is properly taken care of before I spend one dime.
When are sales people going to figure out that they can't BS people who do their homework and know the issues. Hurts sales and makes them look foolish.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: Jim Bronson on September 02, 2019, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 02, 2019, 01:45:51 PM
When are sales people going to figure out that they can't BS people who do their homework and know the issues. Hurts sales and makes them look foolish.
It wouldn't be the first time.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: PoorUB on September 02, 2019, 08:08:31 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 02, 2019, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 02, 2019, 01:45:51 PM
When are sales people going to figure out that they can't BS people who do their homework and know the issues. Hurts sales and makes them look foolish.
It wouldn't be the first time.

Yeah, but its is the same line of B.S. dealer sales people have been spouting for years. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Sell motorcycles and sort it out later. A salesman on the floor is the last place I look for credible information.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: SixShooter14 on September 03, 2019, 06:50:09 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on September 02, 2019, 08:08:31 PM
Quote from: Jim Bronson on September 02, 2019, 06:44:13 PM
Quote from: IronButt70 on September 02, 2019, 01:45:51 PM
When are sales people going to figure out that they can't BS people who do their homework and know the issues. Hurts sales and makes them look foolish.
It wouldn't be the first time.

Yeah, but its is the same line of B.S. dealer sales people have been spouting for years. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Sell motorcycles and sort it out later. A salesman on the floor is the last place I look for credible information.
Same goes for many/most car dealers.
Title: Re: M8 trans fluid leaking in primary
Post by: rigidthumper on September 03, 2019, 07:40:31 AM
I spent almost 20 years at a dealership, educating the Sales/F&I/Parts guys as much as possible. Cost me money (as flat rate wrench) but it reduced the BS, and helped with expectations.