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Oil Pressure

Started by FTBY55, October 11, 2019, 03:41:56 PM

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capn

Get a regular billet S&S pump.Not the high pressure one.Also those Ultima pumps work well if you are short on cash.I have one of each no problem with either one.

thumper 823

After studying life in bars, then oils, I have not ever found one that had much of a different pour point once hot.
The oil enginemeers use 212 deg for the control point
The Viscosity label    "W" is the information for cold starts.
The "W" stands for Winter, and a higher number will stand for better shear when hot.
Pour points are measured with cold oil and hot.
The hot number means little after 212 deg*
It is a very common mistake to think 60 weight is *way thicker at 200 deg the 30 weight. 

https://www.motorstate.com/oilviscosity.htm

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/why-does-motor-oil-viscosity-matter

https://autosneed.com/oil-viscosity-and-weight/
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

JW113

As Dan said, if tappets are not clacking, there is nothing wrong with the oil supply. HD does not operate on oil pressure, but rather just pushes oil around to keep things wet. At hot idle, if the light is not on solid, you're good to. I kind of recall that in the owner's manual, it even says if the bike is hot the light might flicker, but is considered normal.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

FTBY55

So after reviewing the oiling system diagram I am concerned about increasing the spring pressure as that would leave my lower end and cam chest unoiled longer. As plunger rises the top end is oiled first plunger raises and opens passage to lower end and cam chest.
Increasing pressure is only masking the problem. I believe the pump is worn.
when I take the plunger out oil flows out fairly quick. Working with positive displacement gear pumps for forty years we would only see that when housing. wear plates or gears were worn.
Looking at the S&S Billet information and it says that the OEM drive shaft can not be used. Will the camchest have to be opened and will the motor need to be removed?

FTBY55

FROM S&S Instructions:


With engine hot, typical oil pressure reading is 3-4 PSI at 1000 RPM idle, 12-15 PSI at approximately 2500 RPM. If oil pressure reading is low, confirm with accurate mechanic's gauge . Oil pressure warning light comes on at approximately 3 PSI. Light may flicker at low RPM, but should quickly go out with slight increase in engine speed.

hbkeith

majority has said , nothing wrong , but yes pull engine do complete rebuild

rigidthumper

The pressure gauge actually only indicates resistance to flow, that's why increasing spring pressure makes the gauge go higher- you have effectively increased the resistance to flow. HD uses roller bearings, so the oil has to be able to flow through the passageways, across the rollers to lube & cool, keep the lifters full, and travel back to the bag & dissipate some of the captured heat. As has been said, the HD system relies on volume, not pressure. If the lifters are not clacking, and the light is out, you're OK. If you are hearing sounds that concern you, have an experienced rider/mechanic listen to it.


BTW, oil pressure gauges have sold more oil pumps & fancy springs than any accessory catalog :)
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

FSG

I put a pressure gauge on my Fatty years ago, I took it off not long after, best thing I ever did

OK an Evo Oil Pump has a Non Return Valve in it, the Ball that notoriously gets a bit of crud under it and leaks when the engine is not running, a small spring keeps the ball in the closed position

It takes 3 PSI to over come that spring and have oil flow

The OEM Oil Pressure Switch operates at 5 PSI so if the oil light is off then you have at least 5 PSI, if the light flickers at idle then ......  so what

NOTE: I said OEM Oil Pressure Switch,  anything else ....... Taiwan Ted, Corner Store Switch ......  I've no idea

The lower/upper oil passage plunger spring operates at 15 PSI

if no oil light and no tappet noise I'd leave things be, now I do like Synthetic Oil BUT could easily just run Dino in an Evo


Burnout

OK I'll re word my previous post.

Replacing the pressure relief spring will not raise HOT IDLE oil pressure. This is where guys are having trouble.
It relieves high pressure it won't make up for a lack of pressure.
A high idle has never damaged a Harley motor.


At a hot idle the light is coming on because

A) The oil is too thin (20-50 with no cooler is too thin)
B) The pump output is weak due to wear
C) The IDLE SPEED is too low (this is a biggie)
D) An incorrect oil light switch has been installed

I won't discuss actual pressures because that is a cesspool of argument and conjecture.

Can we agree that you can have oil FLOW at very low pressures? Pressures lower than a gauge will indicate?

Now for the part that guys cant wrap their heads around.
Any oil pressure measured on a non-twincam Harley is entirely coincidental.
A Harley oiling system is not pressure based, only FLOW.
A Harley oil pump is a feed pump not a pressure pump, it merely "lifts" the oil up to the lifters and rockers.
The pressure that turns off the oil light is created by the check valve spring and the flow resistance of that passage.
DO NOT INCREASE THE CHECK VALVE SPRING pressure as that may/will restrict oil delivery (especially if the pump is worn)

Most of a Harley's oiling is done by splash.
A Harley's crank bearings are not "pressure" lubricated. The only things that need "pressure" are the lifters and the rockers.
The big end of a Harley's rods get fed 10 times the amount of oil they need, that oil is thrown up to the pistons to lube and cool them.
A very small portion of that oil lubes the outer crank bearings as it drips down from above.
Another point is a blown up Harley will still show oil pressure until it is run far enough to damage the oil pump.

FIRST is oil
Very near the front of the manual in the maintenance section a chart is provided showing that 60w oil should be used at ambient temps over 80°F (this even applies to twincams).
So if you're going to run 20-50w You should have an oil cooler installed. If you can keep the oil temps down you can run lower weight oil.

SECOND is Idle speed
Forget the "potato potato potato" idle as cool as it sounds it is the worst thing you can do to a Harley motor.
Many leave their bike out in the driveway chugging away at less than the recommended idle speed to "warm it up" they think they are being nice to their motor.
This starves the pistons for oil and cooling.
A cold motor actually needs a higher idle speed to throw the thick cold oil up to lube and cool the pistons. 1200-1500 rpm cold.
It is much better to ride the bike away as soon as the spark plugs are warm enough that the bike won't stall.
Wait til the oil tank is hot before you "ride it like you stole it".

I have a very high mileage 87 FXR in my garage that has been ridden very hard (extremely hard).
The distance the front wheel has been in the air can be measured in miles, more than some ride on two in a year!
It does not smoke or use oil and will keep up with the fastest 80"ers and beat most stock'ers.
It has been across the central valley of California many times in temps 80-100°F over 100mph for entire tanks of gas (mileage is crap at that speed) loaded down with gear and even a passenger.
There was a time that if my rear tire lasted 2 oil changes I was happy, many tires did not last that long.
Most of my friends had smiley faces burned into the pavement in front of their houses, by me.
It has near 100k miles on it, and still has the ORIGINAL PISTONS, RINGS and VALVE JOB!
I attribute this to not ever allowing it to idle at less than 950 and it has never idled for an extended period (more than a couple of minutes)
I use 20-50 Harley Dinosaur oil because my motor runs quieter with it than with other oils and it has ALWAYS HAD AN OIL COOLER on it.
MY OIL LIGHT HAS NEVER COME ON ANY TIME IT IS RUNNING with this setup.
Harley Synth oil is not as thick (not in my bike) Harley's marketing dept says to use it in everything. (Do Not believe the marketing speak)

So check your A B C D's
And as long as your lifters are not clattering you have enough oil "pressure"
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Dan89flstc

Quote from: Burnout on October 14, 2019, 10:36:13 AM



FIRST is oil
Very near the front of the manual in the maintenance section a chart is provided showing that 60w oil should be used at ambient temps over 80°F (this even applies to twincams).

Actually, the manual says you can use SAE 60 if ambient temperature will never drop below 80 degrees Farenheight.

Nowhere does it say you should use SAE 60.

US Navy Veteran
A&P Mechanic

Burnout

October 14, 2019, 10:55:17 AM #35 Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 11:02:08 AM by Burnout
Word games. The only reason NOT to use 60w is if you cant start it because the oil is too heavy.

It's your bike run it however you like.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

JW113

Actually, even the tappets do not operate on pressure from the oil pump. That's why at even seemingly zero PSI, you don't hear the tappets clattering as long as you have oil flow. Take a dry tappet, dip it into a cup of oil and push the plunger down. Bet you can't do it more than three or four times. Tappets suck their oil in, and the check valve holds it in. They just need to be sitting in a cavity full of oil to function, which the oil pump provides.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

thumper 823

Not too be rude But I post oil stuff once in awhile, -None of you guys seem to understand an oil index OR the pour and V1 correlation
if I can I will post a very simple index.
LOOK at the dam thing.
The viscosity is all about the same hot
The pour point very a lot within breeds for cold weather start. Not hot!  (The engineers use 212 deg.)

To make this short - once oil is HOT the viscosities are all bout the same with the shear and pressure factors (not oil P,) protection change.
This is very important to understand.
Don't shoot me.
I just bring you the message, try to benefit yourselves.
It has taken me a long time to study all this and most people just repeat BS found on the net.

Read slow, read again.
Carry on.

https://www.micapeak.com/info/oiled.html
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

FTBY55

Thanks All,

Bike has been a Mobil1 20W50 user since 500 miles. Tried LiguiMoly 20w60 once last year and then went to AMSOIL 20W50.  Idle has always been set at~1050 with choke running about1500 to 1800 ride about a mile and it's off. Seldom see temps over 215 at oil tank even here in AZ. Running slightly rich.
Appreciate all the responses. Came home today, parked my other bike and pulled the shim out of the plunger. Gonna ride it like it is and not worry about those old higher pressure readings.
Will spend the money on upgrading the camchest of the '02 Ultra.

Thanks again... You guys are a wealth of information and greatly appreciated.

michael133

it aint the presure,,its the flow on ol evo..only time i see 30 lb. oil presure is in cold weather at start up...flow.....

david lee

Quote from: JW113 on October 14, 2019, 06:39:20 PM
Actually, even the tappets do not operate on pressure from the oil pump. That's why at even seemingly zero PSI, you don't hear the tappets clattering as long as you have oil flow. Take a dry tappet, dip it into a cup of oil and push the plunger down. Bet you can't do it more than three or four times. Tappets suck their oil in, and the check valve holds it in. They just need to be sitting in a cavity full of oil to function, which the oil pump provides.

-JW
another good summary

thumper 823

I have always had 10 at idle  even in Sturgis, super Hot out, flat footin through twn.
I replaced the gauge last year cause it got cloudy-the new one reads the same.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH