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95 inch ping

Started by egstandard, December 04, 2018, 10:40:09 AM

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egstandard

2004 carbed flht. Did a bore and 95 inch flat top stock compression pistons last july. 2006 stock heads. .030 head gasket. Andrews 26 cams. It pings under load sometimes now. Only when it is really hot outside. Thinking i should have gone with the .040 head gasket? Stock ignition.

rigidthumper

Stock curve may be slightly aggressive, but it should be close, as it as designed to be safe/proper for an 8.8:1 engine with a 30° intake close, and you now have a 9.3:1 engine with a 35° intake close.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

PoorUB

I did a 95" with Andrew's 26 cams, milled the head .030" and used a.030" head gasket plus got it tuned. It would ping occasionally. 

Get it tuned!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

jls 64

Aftermarket ignition plus  get it tuned
js

egstandard

Like a Daytona Twin Tech?

1FSTRK

Quote from: egstandard on December 04, 2018, 01:43:13 PM
Like a Daytona Twin Tech?

I had great luck with DTT, all my local builder uses.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Hossamania

If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

I'm assuming the stock cv40 carb, was it rejected, possibly a different needle?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

egstandard

Yes, it's jetted and running a cvp velocity needle in a cv 40.

Hossamania

Next step is ignition, then. The DTT is a good unit. It has manual adjustments that are easily used, and it can be programmed with a custom tune as well.
Putting it on a Dyno would help dial it in and verify that your fuel is correct.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

jls 64

Ignition fron ultima is cheap.but a dyno tune is need it.
js

Y2KRKNG

A DYNATEK tc2000 would get you where you need to be also. It has preset timing tables on 3 different zones and a rev limit setting. That's it, pretty simple.
If you're not going to "take it to the tuner" at a cost of $1G+tuning devise, then the Dynatek will fit the bill.
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

egstandard

I should also mention that these andrews 26 cams were in the bike when it was 88 inches. Also with a .030 head gasket and the 2006 heads. Never had any ping with that combo.

Y2KRKNG

Sounds like the stock timing is serving you well then. Just leave it and use some octane booster on real hot days or a quart of race/Av gas.
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

1FSTRK

Quote from: egstandard on December 05, 2018, 07:25:04 AM
I should also mention that these andrews 26 cams were in the bike when it was 88 inches. Also with a .030 head gasket and the 2006 heads. Never had any ping with that combo.

Your compression was lower with that combo.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Y2KRKNG

Quote from: egstandard on December 04, 2018, 10:40:09 AM
2004 carbed flht. Did a bore and 95 inch flat top stock compression pistons last july. 2006 stock heads. .030 head gasket. Andrews 26 cams. It pings under load sometimes now. Only when it is really hot outside. Thinking i should have gone with the .040 head gasket? Stock ignition.
A little more description would help. You MAY be able to skate by without a new IGN module. Does it ever ping at WOT? Is it only in high gear(4th or 5th) at high load low rpm(below 3k)? Have you gone to a colder plug and smaller gap with the higher compression?
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

egstandard

Never at WOT. Higher load low rpm ping, yes. I'm  not a lugger though. Slow roll of throttle and it usually won't ping. Stock plugs, gapped in the middle of spec. Octane boost does help.

muskwa

As Y2KRKNG says, try a colder plug before you spend money on the aftermarket ignition.  I run autolite XS4162 in mine. (2 heat ranges colder than stock replacement XS4164).  An NGK in the 9 heat range would be equivalent.

egstandard

I'll look for some of those plugs. What gap you running?

jls 64

js

1FSTRK

If you are getting ping on a long hard pull the plug may be over heating so the colder plug could help a touch, If you get ping during roll-on or coming into a grade that is pure timing and closing the gap will add timing to an already too advanced curve. If it is ever so slight and only in the hottest weather you could try running maximum plug gap but it would be a long shot.

You have done this build over time making improvements every step of the way, maybe you owe yourself and your engine one more performance step and add the DTT. It will bring out the power from the build you have, be adjustable for anything you may change in the future, and protect your investment no matter what you are running.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

jls 64

js

bobo

If you go for a DTT do not forget the cable so you can fine tune the ignition
24FH 33Chief 59Pan 2005FLHTC 2007 1200 sporty

egstandard


Hillside Motorcycle

Set the DTT at 1, 2, 2 and 6000 rpm limit for starters, until dyno tuned, if need be.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Y2KRKNG

I can tell you the Dynatek is idiot proof and cheaper. You will be on 34A or 32A setting, 36A is basically the stock curve. If you would never justify the Dyno time then the DTT will be much more of a headache for you, guaranteed. 
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

1FSTRK

Quote from: Y2KRKNG on December 06, 2018, 07:14:36 AM
I can tell you the Dynatek is idiot proof and cheaper. You will be on 34A or 32A setting, 36A is basically the stock curve. If you would never justify the Dyno time then the DTT will be much more of a headache for you, guaranteed.

Not sure where you opinion is coming from, more choices does not mean more complicated. Changing the factory settings on the DTT by turning the dials is no different than picking a setting on the Dynatek other than there are more maps to choose from giving a better chance of finding the closest match even if you do not dyno tune. If you choose to dyno tune it can be programmed with a custom map. 
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Y2KRKNG

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 06, 2018, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: Y2KRKNG on December 06, 2018, 07:14:36 AM
I can tell you the Dynatek is idiot proof and cheaper. You will be on 34A or 32A setting, 36A is basically the stock curve. If you would never justify the Dyno time then the DTT will be much more of a headache for you, guaranteed.

Not sure where you opinion is coming from, more choices does not mean more complicated. Changing the factory settings on the DTT by turning the dials is no different than picking a setting on the Dynatek other than there are more maps to choose from giving a better chance of finding the closest match even if you do not dyno tune. If you choose to dyno tune it can be programmed with a custom map.

You have to juggle 3 dials on the DTT
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

Hossamania

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 06, 2018, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: Y2KRKNG on December 06, 2018, 07:14:36 AM
I can tell you the Dynatek is idiot proof and cheaper. You will be on 34A or 32A setting, 36A is basically the stock curve. If you would never justify the Dyno time then the DTT will be much more of a headache for you, guaranteed.

Not sure where you opinion is coming from, more choices does not mean more complicated. Changing the factory settings on the DTT by turning the dials is no different than picking a setting on the Dynatek other than there are more maps to choose from giving a better chance of finding the closest match even if you do not dyno tune. If you choose to dyno tune it can be programmed with a custom map.

I found it pretty easy to dial in the DTT, and I'm no tuner, for sure. There are really only two dials to deal with for timing, and they are easy to figure out. 5/5 is stock timing and curve, go from there. I think mine ended up 1(multi spark), 1(initial timing), 2(curve or slope), 1 (6100 rpm redline). Banged that redline thousands of times. Thought about 6200, but figured it would blow to hell after all this time at 6100.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

Quote from: Y2KRKNG on December 06, 2018, 01:02:14 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 06, 2018, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: Y2KRKNG on December 06, 2018, 07:14:36 AM
I can tell you the Dynatek is idiot proof and cheaper. You will be on 34A or 32A setting, 36A is basically the stock curve. If you would never justify the Dyno time then the DTT will be much more of a headache for you, guaranteed.

Not sure where you opinion is coming from, more choices does not mean more complicated. Changing the factory settings on the DTT by turning the dials is no different than picking a setting on the Dynatek other than there are more maps to choose from giving a better chance of finding the closest match even if you do not dyno tune. If you choose to dyno tune it can be programmed with a custom map.

You have to juggle 3 dials on the DTT

Like I said, really only two for timing, the first is for single or multi spark.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

egstandard

Well guys, I haven't messed with timing since my shovel days. I like to keep things simple. That's why i have a carbed 04. So I basically know nothing about these programmable modules. Sounds like I'm gonna have to learn to get the most out of this bike. I appreciate everything you all have said so far. Anything else you can tell me will be greatly appreciated also. I've watched the DTT installation video, and that looks simple enough. I can use my stock coil and plug wires, correct?

Y2KRKNG

I actually would leave things alone. For a modified carbed bike to never-ever ping under any circumstance you'd have to pull a lot of timing. If you're talking about a slight ping in the beginning of a heavy load roll-on  under the most extreme condition then just try to ride around it or carry some octane boost.
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

1FSTRK

December 06, 2018, 02:50:55 PM #32 Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 03:07:41 PM by 1FSTRK
Quote from: egstandard on December 06, 2018, 02:03:30 PM
Well guys, I haven't messed with timing since my shovel days. I like to keep things simple. That's why i have a carbed 04. So I basically know nothing about these programmable modules. Sounds like I'm gonna have to learn to get the most out of this bike. I appreciate everything you all have said so far. Anything else you can tell me will be greatly appreciated also. I've watched the DTT installation video, and that looks simple enough. I can use my stock coil and plug wires, correct?

Correct.
Simple plug in, set the dials and ride. If you have some ping note the rpm and adjust the curve dial then retest. It is all in the instructions, if you can read you can dial in the timing.

The instructions will tell you how to set the dials to mimic a stock curve. You can start there and just back the timing down a little bit in the rpm you have ping until you get it right. You may it needs a touch more adjustment once you get to the rally hot part of summer.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

rking1550

Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.
124"@ 11.1 to 1, T-man 662-2, T-man thumper, woods CV 51 carb,  Bassini RR

1FSTRK

Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

rking1550

 :scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.
124"@ 11.1 to 1, T-man 662-2, T-man thumper, woods CV 51 carb,  Bassini RR

1FSTRK

Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
:scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.

What engine are you running it on?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

rking1550

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
:scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.

What engine are you running it on?

A custom built 120" @ 11.3, t-man 662-2 cams and thumper heads, woods cv 51 carb. 2 into 1 exhaust.
124"@ 11.1 to 1, T-man 662-2, T-man thumper, woods CV 51 carb,  Bassini RR

1FSTRK

Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 10:37:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
:scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.

What engine are you running it on?

A custom built 120" @ 11.3, t-man 662-2 cams and thumper heads, woods cv 51 carb. 2 into 1 exhaust.

Did you ever get it dyno tuned back when you were trying to get the ping out with the DTT or did you just put on the S&S because you had it laying on the shelf?

I am sure it took care of the ping, that is what it was made to do, that and save create engines that are under warranty but I do not see how a canned map from a different engine can be considered a performance timing map on a custom engine.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

rking1550

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 10:37:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
:scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.

What engine are you running it on?

A custom built 120" @ 11.3, t-man 662-2 cams and thumper heads, woods cv 51 carb. 2 into 1 exhaust.

Did you ever get it dyno tuned back when you were trying to get the ping out with the DTT or did you just put on the S&S because you had it laying on the shelf?

I am sure it took care of the ping, that is what it was made to do, that and save create engines that are under warranty but I do not see how a canned map from a different engine can be considered a performance timing map on a custom engine.

Yes. Had it tuned, tried the dials and some custom maps   for the DTT.  Ping was light and only in one area,  but there.
From what I understand  the s&s unit isn't a canned map thing, it learns and adjusts all the time. Not a load it and forget type of thing.  Its constantly Adjusting for all condition, from new mods, fuel, elevation.
124"@ 11.1 to 1, T-man 662-2, T-man thumper, woods CV 51 carb,  Bassini RR

1FSTRK

Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 10:37:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
:scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.

What engine are you running it on?

A custom built 120" @ 11.3, t-man 662-2 cams and thumper heads, woods cv 51 carb. 2 into 1 exhaust.

Did you ever get it dyno tuned back when you were trying to get the ping out with the DTT or did you just put on the S&S because you had it laying on the shelf?

I am sure it took care of the ping, that is what it was made to do, that and save create engines that are under warranty but I do not see how a canned map from a different engine can be considered a performance timing map on a custom engine.

Yes. Had it tuned, tried the dials and some custom maps   for the DTT.  Ping was light and only in one area,  but there.
From what I understand  the s&s unit isn't a canned map thing, it learns and adjusts all the time. Not a load it and forget type of thing.  Its constantly Adjusting for all condition, from new mods, fuel, elevation.

Yes it constantly uses the knock sensor to pull timing when ever detonation occurs which means there was too much timing in the cal to begin with and it can only pull timing after there was already a knock event. This is the same thing that is going on when people run EFI without a tune and just let the Ion sensors pull what ever is needed after the fact.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

rking1550

Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 10:37:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
:scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.

What engine are you running it on?

A custom built 120" @ 11.3, t-man 662-2 cams and thumper heads, woods cv 51 carb. 2 into 1 exhaust.

Did you ever get it dyno tuned back when you were trying to get the ping out with the DTT or did you just put on the S&S because you had it laying on the shelf?

I am sure it took care of the ping, that is what it was made to do, that and save create engines that are under warranty but I do not see how a canned map from a different engine can be considered a performance timing map on a custom engine.

Yes. Had it tuned, tried the dials and some custom maps   for the DTT.  Ping was light and only in one area,  but there.
From what I understand  the s&s unit isn't a canned map thing, it learns and adjusts all the time. Not a load it and forget type of thing.  Its constantly Adjusting for all condition, from new mods, fuel, elevation.

Yes it constantly uses the knock sensor to pull timing when ever detonation occurs which means there was too much timing in the cal to begin with and it can only pull timing after there was already a knock event. This is the same thing that is going on when people run EFI without a tune and just let the Ion sensors pull what ever is needed after the fact.

But along with the knock sensor it uses  a head temp sensor, so I would think its watching more than just knock. I'm  no expert by any means. But my experience it seems to do its job well. Runs cool , smooth, starts easy. Makes the same hp I did with the dtt. Using the dials, not a custom map.
But sounds like you don't like it or thing it's a good system ?
124"@ 11.1 to 1, T-man 662-2, T-man thumper, woods CV 51 carb,  Bassini RR

1FSTRK

Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 04:59:43 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:13:14 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 10:37:57 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 06:00:18 AM
:scoot: hi
Quote from: 1FSTRK on December 07, 2018, 03:50:34 AM
Quote from: rking1550 on December 07, 2018, 03:43:25 AM
Or you could go with the S&S  IST ignition. Not cheap but I'm running one on a 01 roadking and loving it. It replaced a DTT system that I couldn't get a slight ping out of with it. Just using the dials. But with the s&s unit I'm getting easier starts and no ping. It uses a knock and head temp sensors. Learns and adjusts on it's own. Change cams, exhaust, it'll make any adjustments needed. Imhoits the best unit out there for a carbed bike.

That system will help save the engine from ping but just like the EFI bikes with ION or knock sensors it will not tune for power, you do not always make the smoothest running best power with spark timing curves that are on the edge of pinging.

I asked S&S about that before I bought it. They claim it's programmed for a performance tune. I agree a safe ignition curve isn't always the best performance curve. But I do know this,  while I didn't really gain any hp over the DTT , I definately didnt loose any and have better starting, a cooler running bike and no ping now.

What engine are you running it on?

A custom built 120" @ 11.3, t-man 662-2 cams and thumper heads, woods cv 51 carb. 2 into 1 exhaust.

Did you ever get it dyno tuned back when you were trying to get the ping out with the DTT or did you just put on the S&S because you had it laying on the shelf?

I am sure it took care of the ping, that is what it was made to do, that and save create engines that are under warranty but I do not see how a canned map from a different engine can be considered a performance timing map on a custom engine.

Yes. Had it tuned, tried the dials and some custom maps   for the DTT.  Ping was light and only in one area,  but there.
From what I understand  the s&s unit isn't a canned map thing, it learns and adjusts all the time. Not a load it and forget type of thing.  Its constantly Adjusting for all condition, from new mods, fuel, elevation.

Yes it constantly uses the knock sensor to pull timing when ever detonation occurs which means there was too much timing in the cal to begin with and it can only pull timing after there was already a knock event. This is the same thing that is going on when people run EFI without a tune and just let the Ion sensors pull what ever is needed after the fact.

But along with the knock sensor it uses  a head temp sensor, so I would think its watching more than just knock. I'm  no expert by any means. But my experience it seems to do its job well. Runs cool , smooth, starts easy. Makes the same hp I did with the dtt. Using the dials, not a custom map.
But sounds like you don't like it or thing it's a good system ?

It is an advanced system and serves it's purpose of saving un-tuned engines from extreme damage. Given S&S has no control over how people tune or don't tune the crate engines that they have to stand behind I can understand why they require it be used, it also satisfies the EPA. For those with one off builds that have no way to write a custom timing map it is probably one of the safer choices available. 
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

egstandard

I'll be trailering it down to Florida in Feb. for the Daytona 500 and staying through bike week. I'll bring some different plugs to experiment with, and really take note of the rpm's, gear I'm in, and how I am throttling when it pings. I'll take all your comments into consideration and should have an idea of which direction I want to go when I get back to Illinois at the end of March. Thank you Gentleman!

barny7655

do a comp test, you may  find it higher than was when new , run a can of  carbon cleaner through the motor, while  at 2000 revs through intake to rid the carbon build up ,do another comp test if lower  great , have a scope, have a look through plug holes ,also you may have a leaking valve seal  look at them ,take it for a good run out on the road ,  after this  if your happy change the oil and filter,cheers
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

Trouble

Did similar work on my '04 RK, except used stock head gaskets and SE203 cam with the recommended sportster needle for the CV. Used SE ignition module that retards timing 5* under load. Never a ping. Those thinner head gaskets may require better timing control. Upped the main jet a size or two also.
You can try and make something idiot-proof, but those idiots are so darn clever

BanditLoon2003

2003 FLHT 95 cu in ,Andrews 21, DDT ignition, also had ping . took it to Brian at Valley Racing and have been running it for quite a few years on his tune with no ping and it proved to be a great highway cruiser.

trex

Quote from: egstandard on December 04, 2018, 01:43:13 PM
Like a Daytona Twin Tech?
I have a 95in, 2003 with 10.5-1 and Wood Tw8 cams and had ping issues with DTT ignitions, went through two of them. Changed to Dynatek and no more ping

Hossamania

Quote from: trex on January 20, 2019, 09:03:05 AM
Quote from: egstandard on December 04, 2018, 01:43:13 PM
Like a Daytona Twin Tech?
I have a 95in, 2003 with 10.5-1 and Wood Tw8 cams and had ping issues with DTT ignitions, went through two of them. Changed to Dynatek and no more ping

Interesting. When I do a rebuild, I will look into the Dynatek if I still have ping issues. Only have 112,000 abusive miles, so no time soon........
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Don D

Have a look at the plugs. Oil in the combustion will effectively lower octane

trex

Quote from: Hossamania on January 20, 2019, 09:38:07 AM
Quote from: trex on January 20, 2019, 09:03:05 AM
Quote from: egstandard on December 04, 2018, 01:43:13 PM
Like a Daytona Twin Tech?
I have a 95in, 2003 with 10.5-1 and Wood Tw8 cams and had ping issues with DTT ignitions, went through two of them. Changed to Dynatek and no more ping

Interesting. When I do a rebuild, I will look into the Dynatek if I still have ping issues. Only have 112,000 abusive miles, so no time soon........
Hoss I had two DTT ignitions and the first one went out and they sent me another free of charge. The second one still had ping and then it quit after a year or so and I sent it to them. They sent it back claiming there was nothing wrong with it, but while it was away I put my stock ignition in and it ran ok. When I got theirs back it still wouldn't run so I sold it to a guy on this site that said he would take it if DTT said it was good, sure buddie. I've had the Dynatek for a couple or 3 years now with no issues and NO ping. Very happy with it. Plus they are closer to my Hawaii home, Las Vegas.

egstandard

Well, I've changed the equation. Got rid of the V&H True Duals and Cobra slipons. I have installed a Supertrapp Supermeg with the recommended 20 discs and closed end cap. Don't know if that will change things, and i haven't ridden it. (Snow and Ice). But I'll be in Florida in a few weeks and excited to see how it does.

sharkoilfield

Have installed S&S IST ignition on 2 different builds. Wouldn't consider anything else on a carbed bike now...

egstandard

Ok, so nothing has changed with the new pipe in the ping department. Like I said previously, not bad, but I have decided to buy a new ignition. I'm pretty sure I won't put it on a dyno do to money considerations. That being said, should it be the Dynatek or Daytona Twin Tec? And why?
Thanks.

Hillside Motorcycle

Quote from: BanditLoon2003 on December 24, 2018, 04:20:42 PM
2003 FLHT 95 cu in ,Andrews 21, DDT ignition, also had ping . took it to Brian at Valley Racing and have been running it for quite a few years on his tune with no ping and it proved to be a great highway cruiser.

Just got off the phone with Brian.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Hossamania

Quote from: egstandard on February 26, 2019, 07:10:53 AM
Ok, so nothing has changed with the new pipe in the ping department. Like I said previously, not bad, but I have decided to buy a new ignition. I'm pretty sure I won't put it on a dyno do to money considerations. That being said, should it be the Dynatek or Daytona Twin Tec? And why?
Thanks.

Trex recommends the Dynatek after past experiences with the DTT, so I would tend to lean toward the Dynatek. My experience with the DTT has not gotten completely rid of ping, so if replaced, I will probably go with the Dynatek.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Y2KRKNG

They're both going to let you retard the timing(also set your rpm limit) and get rid of ping. If one is $100 less, get it.

I'd say on the Dynatek you'll want 34A in the summer and 36A in winter
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

jmorton10

Not to be negative here, but years back I built an Underground Head 95" motor with Wood TW-6HG cams that was an absolute ping monster (& was VERY hard to start with constant kickbacks even with compression releases).

I swapped from a DTT ignition to the IST at considerable cost & it made absolutely no difference whatever.  It was still hard to start & still pinged on roll-on hard throttle.  I finally swapped out the Wood cams for a Wild Thing set that Mike Roland recommended & all the problems disappeared.

The new cams made it start so easily I didn't even need the CR's & all the pinging was totally gone.

~John
HC 124", Dragula, Pingel air shift W/Dyna Shift Minder & onboard compressor, NOS

trex

March 04, 2019, 08:40:58 AM #58 Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 08:50:03 AM by trex
Quote from: Hossamania on February 26, 2019, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: egstandard on February 26, 2019, 07:10:53 AM
Ok, so nothing has changed with the new pipe in the ping department. Like I said previously, not bad, but I have decided to buy a new ignition. I'm pretty sure I won't put it on a dyno do to money considerations. That being said, should it be the Dynatek or Daytona Twin Tec? And why?
Thanks.

Trex recommends the Dynatek after past experiences with the DTT, so I would tend to lean toward the Dynatek. My experience with the DTT has not gotten completely rid of ping, so if replaced, I will probably go with the Dynatek.
Hoss, I'd like to hear your opinion of the Dynatek if you get one, like I wrote I could never get rid of a ping no matter what settings I tried and talked to DTT on the phone, then two quit working. NO problems and NO ping with the Dynatek AND it is easier to set. No I don't work for them either. Also the dials are accessible  by just taking off the seat and with the DTT the side cover and electrical panel have to come off on my 03 FXD to get to the dials. Half hour job and pain in the az.

Hossamania

Quote from: trex on March 04, 2019, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on February 26, 2019, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: egstandard on February 26, 2019, 07:10:53 AM
Ok, so nothing has changed with the new pipe in the ping department. Like I said previously, not bad, but I have decided to buy a new ignition. I'm pretty sure I won't put it on a dyno do to money considerations. That being said, should it be the Dynatek or Daytona Twin Tec? And why?
Thanks.

Trex recommends the Dynatek after past experiences with the DTT, so I would tend to lean toward the Dynatek. My experience with the DTT has not gotten completely rid of ping, so if replaced, I will probably go with the Dynatek.
Hoss, I'd like to hear your opinion of the Dynatek if you get one, like I wrote I could never get rid of a ping no matter what settings I tried and talked to DTT on the phone, then two quit working. NO problems and NO ping with the Dynatek AND it is easier to set. No I don't work for them either. Also the dials are accessible  by just taking off the seat and with the DTT the side cover and electrical panel have to come off on my 03 FXD to get to the dials. Half hour job and pain in the az.

Trex, if my DTT craps out, then I'll let you know. Until then, the DTT stays. Easy to access under the side panel on the RoadKing. Payed for and working, so no new one just to spend money. For now, and the last 14 years, I just downshift, ping gone.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

egstandard

I got the dynatek TC88-3. Installed on my bike. A few trial and error runs on different settings, and I have found one that I and my bike are happy with. What a world of difference. All ping gone, pulls hard through the entire rpm range. Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

Hossamania

Really glad to hear that worked for you. Maybe I'll have to look at getting one sooner than I thought.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

speedzter

Quote from: Hossamania on March 05, 2019, 03:05:33 PM
Really glad to hear that worked for you. Maybe I'll have to look at getting one sooner than I thought.

Or you could buy a cable and customise your map on the DTT  :SM:

egstandard

I should mention that it was an 86 degree day, fresh tank of 93 octane, and no octane boost. Boy it will be nice to not carry octane boost around with me. And hopefully 95 degree days won't change anything.

Hossamania

Quote from: speedzter on March 05, 2019, 05:24:35 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on March 05, 2019, 03:05:33 PM
Really glad to hear that worked for you. Maybe I'll have to look at getting one sooner than I thought.

Or you could buy a cable and customise your map on the DTT  :SM:

That was always on my list, never quite got to it.

Quote from: egstandard on March 06, 2019, 08:51:21 AM
I should mention that it was an 86 degree day, fresh tank of 93 octane, and no octane boost. Boy it will be nice to not carry octane boost around with me. And hopefully 95 degree days won't change anything.

The octane boost never did help with mine. The weird thing is that it seems to have stopped pinging for the most part. I've been working on a vacuum leak for a while, maybe I got it fixed and that was part of the issue the whole time.
Or, it has burned a dish into the Pistons and lowered the compression, and I'm one good detonation away from burning a hole through them!
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

egstandard

God I hope not! I found that the Amsoil octane boost would help it some. And the Lucas in the individual bottles for 6 gallons for motorcycles was decent also. But the stuff from the auto parts store did not help. And I kept a small measuring cup with me for proper dosage per gallon.

trex

Quote from: Hossamania on March 04, 2019, 10:38:56 AM
Quote from: trex on March 04, 2019, 08:40:58 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on February 26, 2019, 08:46:12 AM
Quote from: egstandard on February 26, 2019, 07:10:53 AM
Ok, so nothing has changed with the new pipe in the ping department. Like I said previously, not bad, but I have decided to buy a new ignition. I'm pretty sure I won't put it on a dyno do to money considerations. That being said, should it be the Dynatek or Daytona Twin Tec? And why?
Thanks.

Trex recommends the Dynatek after past experiences with the DTT, so I would tend to lean toward the Dynatek. My experience with the DTT has not gotten completely rid of ping, so if replaced, I will probably go with the Dynatek.
Hoss, I'd like to hear your opinion of the Dynatek if you get one, like I wrote I could never get rid of a ping no matter what settings I tried and talked to DTT on the phone, then two quit working. NO problems and NO ping with the Dynatek AND it is easier to set. No I don't work for them either. Also the dials are accessible  by just taking off the seat and with the DTT the side cover and electrical panel have to come off on my 03 FXD to get to the dials. Half hour job and pain in the az.

Trex, if my DTT craps out, then I'll let you know. Until then, the DTT stays. Easy to access under the side panel on the RoadKing. Payed for and working, so no new one just to spend money. For now, and the last 14 years, I just downshift, ping gone.
On a Dyna ,my 03 FXD anyway the side panel AND electric panel need to come off, that include s the coil too. It's a pain but the Dynatek you just take off the seat and can see the adjusters and use a needle nose to turn them. Much easier

Don D

Be sure there is no oil consumption. Oil in the burn can cause this.

Hossamania

Quote from: HD Street Performance on March 06, 2019, 11:17:51 AM
Be sure there is no oil consumption. Oil in the burn can cause this.

I use some oil, but very little, maybe 1/2 quart in 2000 miles of spirited riding.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

muskwa

What settings did you finally land on with the Dynatek, just out of curiosity?

muskwa

And what is your CCP?

egstandard

30B. Don't know the CCP offhand.

trex

Quote from: egstandard on March 07, 2019, 12:48:11 PM
30B. Don't know the CCP offhand.
I also have my Dynatek set at 30B on my 95incher, 10.5-1 comp CCP 200 when checked couple years ago