Advice on 2015 RGS 103HO stage 1 with 48k on the clock

Started by Shadowbennie, January 19, 2019, 02:17:54 PM

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Shadowbennie

Hey All, first post here, but almost every search I do regarding technical advice leads me here, so I figured I'd join & come straight to the source. Forgive me for this monster first post, but I've been compiling this for some time now.

I a little over 48k on my 2015 RGS so as preventative maintenance I thought I'd take a peek at my chain case components as well as my cam chain tensioner shoes.

Now, I believe the new hydraulic tensioner design is less susceptible to failure in comparison to the old spring style, but it's not that much work to at least have a look at the outer shoe to get a gauge of the amount of wear, so I've taken off the camchest cover & had a look.  Overall, the outer shoe looks good (maybe .015" of wear), and by deduction, I assume the inner is in similar shape so I was planning on just buttoning it back up as-is; however, I was considering this as a possible opportunity for a cam upgrade. I already have a stage 1 with a Fuel Moto a/c, dragos dragula2 2-1 exhaust, & power vision. With that being said, I was really thinking of holding off another year, just because I hadn't planned on spending the dough quite yet & had debated waiting until I could afford a 107 kit to get even better power gains.

With all of that being said, I started calling around to a few shops just to get some pricing ideas, and the consensus from the shops is that not only are my lifters suspect & could be subject to failure, but also that the inner cam bearings could also be a possible "ticking time bomb" at my mileage. Part of me thinks that while there may be some kernel of truth behind the shops comments, they are also in the business of selling things, so of course there's an opportunity for them to sell some goods. By no means am I saying these places are merely trying to sell me on scare tactics, I'm just trying to be mindful of that aspect and keep it in perspective. But I also have posted this question on other forums & have received similar responses about the bearings & lifters there as well.

The root question is, what's the general consensus here about these specific internal components that are being specifically called to the mat and could hold a real potential for failure, or would y'all just button it up & ride it, taking the chance that nothing will go wrong? I realize my question is bit subjective since there are a lot of variables that come into play.

For reference, I am pretty darn religious about changing oil & filter every 5k, and have used either Castrol 20-50 vtwin syn or schaeffer 20-50 vtwin syn oil after the 1k break-in oil was changed. I don't treat my bike like a rented mule, but do twist the wick and have fun when the mood strikes. (Don't we all?)

It's tough because, would I like cams? Absolutely. Do I need them? Not really - and I feel like cams only is a marginal upgrade. But these comments coming from some respected shops & the matching feedback from other forums have me a little concerned about the chances I would be taking by running it as-is for another season, which would be approx. 15k miles.

If replacing these problem items is recommended,  then I might as well do cams while I'm at it since I'm that far in. However, this will likely delay the 107 build I was considering and I'd run it just with the cam upgrade for a while.

I have been researching cams over the last week just in case it's determined that I need to replace the lifters & such, & think I've narrowed it down to these based on where I'd like the torque, all while trying to carry that torque out as far as possible since I don't want a cam that gals flat at 4K like the stock cam does (IMO)

Fuel Moto cam package:
-woods alpha lifters (any input on these?)
-FM adjustable pushrods
-gaskets etc
Cams: here's where I'm not sure of which will be the way to go - ranked on my current 1st choice to last:

Cyclerama cr-570-2 $700 for the kit
Andrews 57h $608 for the kit
Woods tw-222 $750 for the kit
S&S MR-103 $608 for the kit

The cr-570-2 has been getting rave reviews as a bolt in for stock 103's without any additional headwork or compression bumps, and it seems the Andrews 57's are good too, but like more than stock compression & torque comes on later than the 570's, but how useful will the 570's be if or when I step up in displacement/compression, or do I just need to accept that I will be replacing cams with a 107 build?

I also called cycle Rama & the guy I talked to said that this cam starts building torque early (2200-2400) they said they could provide a kit, but they use standard S&S adjustable pushrods, but said they have their own lifters. I can't seem to find much on the cyclerama lifters, any thoughts on those?

IronButt70

Can't say for sure but you would probably save money by buying the cams, lifters, pushrods etc separately instead of a kit. Those tend to have a pretty high markup. WFOlarry(site sponsor) for lifters, S&S pusrods direct from S&S. May want to replace inner cam bearings while you're in there too. S&S sells bearings with gasket and whatever else you need for that.
If you're planning to do a 107 or larger build in the near future might be better to just save all the fun tickets for that instead of doing some of the same things twice. JMHO.
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

kd

California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'll be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.
KD

Ohio HD

Quote from: kd on January 19, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'ol be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.

   ^^^^^^^
   This is true

Tell him we sent you.

https://www.harleypartscheap.com/


1FSTRK

Welcome to HTT, great first post. With your analytical mind you will fit in around here just fine.
You are going to get a lot of information and opinions on this subject and in the end it will come down to you making the decision base on what is right for you. First off you need to be honest with yourself what your end game is and if you will really follow through with it all.

How real is the plan for the 107 build?
Will the 107 build include head work?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

hihosilver

just to give you a idea on wear my 07 has 150,000 on everything, tensioners brg motor is all stock with big sucker and true duels stage one chip
hihosilver- road whore

PoorUB

The CR570-2 is a nice boost over stock. I put a set in my 2016 Limited. Personally, I would take off the rocker arms, slap in a set of the 570-2's, use the original push rods, by the lifter of your choice, inner bearings, then get her tuned and don't look back.

The stock push rods will work great with the 570-2. I like not having to deal with adjustables and not worrying if a lock nut will come loose.

I would not bother going to the 107". Not worth the coin for four inches.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Shadowbennie

Quote from: IronButt70 on January 19, 2019, 02:32:09 PM
Can't say for sure but you would probably save money by buying the cams, lifters, pushrods etc separately instead of a kit. Those tend to have a pretty high markup. WFOlarry(site sponsor) for lifters, S&S pusrods direct from S&S. May want to replace inner cam bearings while you're in there too. S&S sells bearings with gasket and whatever else you need for that.
If you're planning to do a 107 or larger build in the near future might be better to just save all the fun tickets for that instead of doing some of the same things twice. JMHO.

I have started looking at piece part components as well, but am not that familiar with too many options other than the known brands, definitely not familiar with WFOlarry, but I'll check his stuff out. What about his lifters make them a first choice option? Just asking for informational purposes, thanks.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: kd on January 19, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'll be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.

Thanks, I'll give him a call and see what he says

Shadowbennie

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 19, 2019, 04:34:54 PM
Welcome to HTT, great first post. With your analytical mind you will fit in around here just fine.
You are going to get a lot of information and opinions on this subject and in the end it will come down to you making the decision base on what is right for you. First off you need to be honest with yourself what your end game is and if you will really follow through with it all.

How real is the plan for the 107 build?
Will the 107 build include head work?

Thanks 1FSTRK, I'm just trying to learn as now that I'm having to dig in further than stage 1 stuff, I end up asking a lot of questions & try to study all the options before making decisions.

At this time, the 107 build, (or more) is just on the radar I think. More of a "nice to have someday" thing. As much as I'd like to do it, all of the reading I've done tells me that more $$ than I want to spend in the foreseeable future will be required. So that's why I had picked the cams I did, knowing it's probably a ways off, but with some room for growth in case I decide to sell a kidney or something lol.

To be serious though, yeah, if I'm gonna do a displacement build, I'd go with headwork along with it.

klammer76

Quote from: kd on January 19, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'll be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.
:agree: Calif Phil

1FSTRK

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 19, 2019, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 19, 2019, 04:34:54 PM
Welcome to HTT, great first post. With your analytical mind you will fit in around here just fine.
You are going to get a lot of information and opinions on this subject and in the end it will come down to you making the decision base on what is right for you. First off you need to be honest with yourself what your end game is and if you will really follow through with it all.

How real is the plan for the 107 build?
Will the 107 build include head work?

Thanks 1FSTRK, I'm just trying to learn as now that I'm having to dig in further than stage 1 stuff, I end up asking a lot of questions & try to study all the options before making decisions.

At this time, the 107 build, (or more) is just on the radar I think. More of a "nice to have someday" thing. As much as I'd like to do it, all of the reading I've done tells me that more $$ than I want to spend in the foreseeable future will be required. So that's why I had picked the cams I did, knowing it's probably a ways off, but with some room for growth in case I decide to sell a kidney or something lol.

To be serious though, yeah, if I'm gonna do a displacement build, I'd go with headwork along with it.

That actually makes it a little easier for you to decide now. A 107 or drop-in 110 with head work would be wasteful if you reused any of the really good bolt in 103 cams.

The rest of your questions really come down to how lucky you feel. For ever guy that will post here that the OEM lifters or inner cam bearings went bad and sent hard metal shrapnel throughout the engine causing additional damage you will get a counter post about a stock engine with 100,000 plus miles of trouble free riding and both are telling the truth. It is really just a crap shoot and if you are an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure guy the only real way to be sure is to get the questionable production parts out before you find their limit.

If you remove anything more than the cam cover it is my personal preference to install new lifters and inner bearings, they really are not that expensive when you look at the big picture. I would not ever consider installing a camshaft without new bearings and lifters.

You will get plenty of other opinions here.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

FLDavetrain

To the OPs question on Cyclerama lifters. I've used several sets over 10 yrs and never one problem. And his pricing on them ain't too shabby.
currently 510ci on tap

kd

The MOCO now considers TC lifters a service item.  If the manufacturer says so .....   :unsure:   :wink: :wink:
KD

1FSTRK

Quote from: kd on January 20, 2019, 04:34:16 AM
The MOCO now considers TC lifters a service item.  If the manufacturer says so .....   :unsure:   :wink: :wink:

The problem is some factory lifters need service at 1000 miles and others need service at 125,000 miles. That makes it hard to come up with a good service interval.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

bobrk1

Didn't  they  start  to  put  in the  hd  255 at the  factory  in  2015? Check  on  that  then  check  out  the  dyno  room  to  check  out  the  cams  and  what  they  can  make  with  different  combos 

rigidthumper

Quote from: bobrk1 on January 20, 2019, 07:16:19 AM
Didn't  they  start  to  put  in the  hd  255 at the  factory  in  2015? Check  on  that  then  check  out  the  dyno  room  to  check  out  the  cams  and  what  they  can  make  with  different  combos 
No, Rushmore cams and SE255s are different products. Stage 1 Rushmore bikes with a good tune make ~105 TQ and 85 HP, +/-. He didn't say anything about his bike ever being on a drum.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Shadowbennie

Quote from: rigidthumper on January 20, 2019, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: bobrk1 on January 20, 2019, 07:16:19 AM
Didn't  they  start  to  put  in the  hd  255 at the  factory  in  2015? Check  on  that  then  check  out  the  dyno  room  to  check  out  the  cams  and  what  they  can  make  with  different  combos 
No, Rushmore cams and SE255s are different products. Stage 1 Rushmore bikes with a good tune make ~105 TQ and 85 HP, +/-. He didn't say anything about his bike ever being on a drum.

Nope, have not had the bike dynoed after the pipes & a/c were added, just got maps from Dragos & Fuel Moto & autotuned from there. Mid to late last summer I feel that my auto tune sessions had it running pretty darn good & it felt smooth & strong (for a stage 1). I don't have any unreasonable expectations when it comes to adding cams to a stock motor, but I do feel that the stock Rushmore cams were a little soft below 2700, and fall pretty flat much above 4K-ish, so hopefully an aftermarket cam will give me a boost at lower rpm & carry out just a little further, at least the cr-570-2 appears to fit that bill. I'm gonna be in there anyway, why not at this point

rigidthumper

Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Hossamania

Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 09:28:45 AM
Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.

Well, my original realistic budget this year for the bike was $0 - however, that has changed now that I know how dangerous of a game I could be playing with the stock internals if I were to just run them for another year, so I think I'll stick with the basics for now and will just do cams with fresh lifters, cam bearings, & tensioner shoes. As much as I'd like to increase the displacement, the couple of comments about a 107 not being worth the money means I should be looking at 110" - which is definitely out of my price range, for a while anyway.

I've resolved myself to the fact that if and when I go bigger, I'm just gonna have to buy new cams to match at that point.

1FSTRK

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 21, 2019, 10:33:15 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 09:28:45 AM
Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.

Well, my original realistic budget this year for the bike was $0 - however, that has changed now that I know how dangerous of a game I could be playing with the stock internals if I were to just run them for another year, so I think I'll stick with the basics for now and will just do cams with fresh lifters, cam bearings, & tensioner shoes. As much as I'd like to increase the displacement, the couple of comments about a 107 not being worth the money means I should be looking at 110" - which is definitely out of my price range, for a while anyway.

I've resolved myself to the fact that if and when I go bigger, I'm just gonna have to buy new cams to match at that point.

The new cams will be a power difference you can feel and if/when you take them out you should get at least half the price back when you sell them used. The value of the peace of mind you get from knowing the lifters and cam bearings are changed out is priceless. Sounds like a solid plan.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Hossamania

Include a proper tune in your budget, not just a download. While a download will work, it is not optimal.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Thermodyne

At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.

1FSTRK

Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.


Are You kidding me?
There is nothing wrong with his bike, he has no problems or complaints. Thought he would do some preventive maintenance and maybe add a cam upgrade and you have the sky falling.
Cylinders are shot, crank out, rockers loose, man talk about a fear mongering sales approach. So should every person riding a bike with 48,000 miles stop beside the road an pull the engine down to look for all these problems? What about at 47,000 miles or 35,000, where should the fear start?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."