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Advice on 2015 RGS 103HO stage 1 with 48k on the clock

Started by Shadowbennie, January 19, 2019, 02:17:54 PM

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Shadowbennie

Hey All, first post here, but almost every search I do regarding technical advice leads me here, so I figured I'd join & come straight to the source. Forgive me for this monster first post, but I've been compiling this for some time now.

I a little over 48k on my 2015 RGS so as preventative maintenance I thought I'd take a peek at my chain case components as well as my cam chain tensioner shoes.

Now, I believe the new hydraulic tensioner design is less susceptible to failure in comparison to the old spring style, but it's not that much work to at least have a look at the outer shoe to get a gauge of the amount of wear, so I've taken off the camchest cover & had a look.  Overall, the outer shoe looks good (maybe .015" of wear), and by deduction, I assume the inner is in similar shape so I was planning on just buttoning it back up as-is; however, I was considering this as a possible opportunity for a cam upgrade. I already have a stage 1 with a Fuel Moto a/c, dragos dragula2 2-1 exhaust, & power vision. With that being said, I was really thinking of holding off another year, just because I hadn't planned on spending the dough quite yet & had debated waiting until I could afford a 107 kit to get even better power gains.

With all of that being said, I started calling around to a few shops just to get some pricing ideas, and the consensus from the shops is that not only are my lifters suspect & could be subject to failure, but also that the inner cam bearings could also be a possible "ticking time bomb" at my mileage. Part of me thinks that while there may be some kernel of truth behind the shops comments, they are also in the business of selling things, so of course there's an opportunity for them to sell some goods. By no means am I saying these places are merely trying to sell me on scare tactics, I'm just trying to be mindful of that aspect and keep it in perspective. But I also have posted this question on other forums & have received similar responses about the bearings & lifters there as well.

The root question is, what's the general consensus here about these specific internal components that are being specifically called to the mat and could hold a real potential for failure, or would y'all just button it up & ride it, taking the chance that nothing will go wrong? I realize my question is bit subjective since there are a lot of variables that come into play.

For reference, I am pretty darn religious about changing oil & filter every 5k, and have used either Castrol 20-50 vtwin syn or schaeffer 20-50 vtwin syn oil after the 1k break-in oil was changed. I don't treat my bike like a rented mule, but do twist the wick and have fun when the mood strikes. (Don't we all?)

It's tough because, would I like cams? Absolutely. Do I need them? Not really - and I feel like cams only is a marginal upgrade. But these comments coming from some respected shops & the matching feedback from other forums have me a little concerned about the chances I would be taking by running it as-is for another season, which would be approx. 15k miles.

If replacing these problem items is recommended,  then I might as well do cams while I'm at it since I'm that far in. However, this will likely delay the 107 build I was considering and I'd run it just with the cam upgrade for a while.

I have been researching cams over the last week just in case it's determined that I need to replace the lifters & such, & think I've narrowed it down to these based on where I'd like the torque, all while trying to carry that torque out as far as possible since I don't want a cam that gals flat at 4K like the stock cam does (IMO)

Fuel Moto cam package:
-woods alpha lifters (any input on these?)
-FM adjustable pushrods
-gaskets etc
Cams: here's where I'm not sure of which will be the way to go - ranked on my current 1st choice to last:

Cyclerama cr-570-2 $700 for the kit
Andrews 57h $608 for the kit
Woods tw-222 $750 for the kit
S&S MR-103 $608 for the kit

The cr-570-2 has been getting rave reviews as a bolt in for stock 103's without any additional headwork or compression bumps, and it seems the Andrews 57's are good too, but like more than stock compression & torque comes on later than the 570's, but how useful will the 570's be if or when I step up in displacement/compression, or do I just need to accept that I will be replacing cams with a 107 build?

I also called cycle Rama & the guy I talked to said that this cam starts building torque early (2200-2400) they said they could provide a kit, but they use standard S&S adjustable pushrods, but said they have their own lifters. I can't seem to find much on the cyclerama lifters, any thoughts on those?

IronButt70

Can't say for sure but you would probably save money by buying the cams, lifters, pushrods etc separately instead of a kit. Those tend to have a pretty high markup. WFOlarry(site sponsor) for lifters, S&S pusrods direct from S&S. May want to replace inner cam bearings while you're in there too. S&S sells bearings with gasket and whatever else you need for that.
If you're planning to do a 107 or larger build in the near future might be better to just save all the fun tickets for that instead of doing some of the same things twice. JMHO.
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

kd

California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'll be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.
KD

Ohio HD

Quote from: kd on January 19, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'ol be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.

   ^^^^^^^
   This is true

Tell him we sent you.

https://www.harleypartscheap.com/


1FSTRK

Welcome to HTT, great first post. With your analytical mind you will fit in around here just fine.
You are going to get a lot of information and opinions on this subject and in the end it will come down to you making the decision base on what is right for you. First off you need to be honest with yourself what your end game is and if you will really follow through with it all.

How real is the plan for the 107 build?
Will the 107 build include head work?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

hihosilver

just to give you a idea on wear my 07 has 150,000 on everything, tensioners brg motor is all stock with big sucker and true duels stage one chip
hihosilver- road whore

PoorUB

The CR570-2 is a nice boost over stock. I put a set in my 2016 Limited. Personally, I would take off the rocker arms, slap in a set of the 570-2's, use the original push rods, by the lifter of your choice, inner bearings, then get her tuned and don't look back.

The stock push rods will work great with the 570-2. I like not having to deal with adjustables and not worrying if a lock nut will come loose.

I would not bother going to the 107". Not worth the coin for four inches.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Shadowbennie

Quote from: IronButt70 on January 19, 2019, 02:32:09 PM
Can't say for sure but you would probably save money by buying the cams, lifters, pushrods etc separately instead of a kit. Those tend to have a pretty high markup. WFOlarry(site sponsor) for lifters, S&S pusrods direct from S&S. May want to replace inner cam bearings while you're in there too. S&S sells bearings with gasket and whatever else you need for that.
If you're planning to do a 107 or larger build in the near future might be better to just save all the fun tickets for that instead of doing some of the same things twice. JMHO.

I have started looking at piece part components as well, but am not that familiar with too many options other than the known brands, definitely not familiar with WFOlarry, but I'll check his stuff out. What about his lifters make them a first choice option? Just asking for informational purposes, thanks.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: kd on January 19, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'll be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.

Thanks, I'll give him a call and see what he says

Shadowbennie

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 19, 2019, 04:34:54 PM
Welcome to HTT, great first post. With your analytical mind you will fit in around here just fine.
You are going to get a lot of information and opinions on this subject and in the end it will come down to you making the decision base on what is right for you. First off you need to be honest with yourself what your end game is and if you will really follow through with it all.

How real is the plan for the 107 build?
Will the 107 build include head work?

Thanks 1FSTRK, I'm just trying to learn as now that I'm having to dig in further than stage 1 stuff, I end up asking a lot of questions & try to study all the options before making decisions.

At this time, the 107 build, (or more) is just on the radar I think. More of a "nice to have someday" thing. As much as I'd like to do it, all of the reading I've done tells me that more $$ than I want to spend in the foreseeable future will be required. So that's why I had picked the cams I did, knowing it's probably a ways off, but with some room for growth in case I decide to sell a kidney or something lol.

To be serious though, yeah, if I'm gonna do a displacement build, I'd go with headwork along with it.

klammer76

Quote from: kd on January 19, 2019, 02:37:03 PM
California Phil is your friend.   :wink:   He's a Vendor here and listed in that section.  Call him up with your list.  You'll be pleasantly surprised.  Lots of us have used his services and advise.
:agree: Calif Phil

1FSTRK

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 19, 2019, 09:12:41 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 19, 2019, 04:34:54 PM
Welcome to HTT, great first post. With your analytical mind you will fit in around here just fine.
You are going to get a lot of information and opinions on this subject and in the end it will come down to you making the decision base on what is right for you. First off you need to be honest with yourself what your end game is and if you will really follow through with it all.

How real is the plan for the 107 build?
Will the 107 build include head work?

Thanks 1FSTRK, I'm just trying to learn as now that I'm having to dig in further than stage 1 stuff, I end up asking a lot of questions & try to study all the options before making decisions.

At this time, the 107 build, (or more) is just on the radar I think. More of a "nice to have someday" thing. As much as I'd like to do it, all of the reading I've done tells me that more $$ than I want to spend in the foreseeable future will be required. So that's why I had picked the cams I did, knowing it's probably a ways off, but with some room for growth in case I decide to sell a kidney or something lol.

To be serious though, yeah, if I'm gonna do a displacement build, I'd go with headwork along with it.

That actually makes it a little easier for you to decide now. A 107 or drop-in 110 with head work would be wasteful if you reused any of the really good bolt in 103 cams.

The rest of your questions really come down to how lucky you feel. For ever guy that will post here that the OEM lifters or inner cam bearings went bad and sent hard metal shrapnel throughout the engine causing additional damage you will get a counter post about a stock engine with 100,000 plus miles of trouble free riding and both are telling the truth. It is really just a crap shoot and if you are an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure guy the only real way to be sure is to get the questionable production parts out before you find their limit.

If you remove anything more than the cam cover it is my personal preference to install new lifters and inner bearings, they really are not that expensive when you look at the big picture. I would not ever consider installing a camshaft without new bearings and lifters.

You will get plenty of other opinions here.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

FLDavetrain

To the OPs question on Cyclerama lifters. I've used several sets over 10 yrs and never one problem. And his pricing on them ain't too shabby.
currently 510ci on tap

kd

The MOCO now considers TC lifters a service item.  If the manufacturer says so .....   :unsure:   :wink: :wink:
KD

1FSTRK

Quote from: kd on January 20, 2019, 04:34:16 AM
The MOCO now considers TC lifters a service item.  If the manufacturer says so .....   :unsure:   :wink: :wink:

The problem is some factory lifters need service at 1000 miles and others need service at 125,000 miles. That makes it hard to come up with a good service interval.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

bobrk1

Didn't  they  start  to  put  in the  hd  255 at the  factory  in  2015? Check  on  that  then  check  out  the  dyno  room  to  check  out  the  cams  and  what  they  can  make  with  different  combos 

rigidthumper

Quote from: bobrk1 on January 20, 2019, 07:16:19 AM
Didn't  they  start  to  put  in the  hd  255 at the  factory  in  2015? Check  on  that  then  check  out  the  dyno  room  to  check  out  the  cams  and  what  they  can  make  with  different  combos 
No, Rushmore cams and SE255s are different products. Stage 1 Rushmore bikes with a good tune make ~105 TQ and 85 HP, +/-. He didn't say anything about his bike ever being on a drum.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Shadowbennie

Quote from: rigidthumper on January 20, 2019, 08:07:51 AM
Quote from: bobrk1 on January 20, 2019, 07:16:19 AM
Didn't  they  start  to  put  in the  hd  255 at the  factory  in  2015? Check  on  that  then  check  out  the  dyno  room  to  check  out  the  cams  and  what  they  can  make  with  different  combos 
No, Rushmore cams and SE255s are different products. Stage 1 Rushmore bikes with a good tune make ~105 TQ and 85 HP, +/-. He didn't say anything about his bike ever being on a drum.

Nope, have not had the bike dynoed after the pipes & a/c were added, just got maps from Dragos & Fuel Moto & autotuned from there. Mid to late last summer I feel that my auto tune sessions had it running pretty darn good & it felt smooth & strong (for a stage 1). I don't have any unreasonable expectations when it comes to adding cams to a stock motor, but I do feel that the stock Rushmore cams were a little soft below 2700, and fall pretty flat much above 4K-ish, so hopefully an aftermarket cam will give me a boost at lower rpm & carry out just a little further, at least the cr-570-2 appears to fit that bill. I'm gonna be in there anyway, why not at this point

rigidthumper

Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Hossamania

Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 09:28:45 AM
Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.

Well, my original realistic budget this year for the bike was $0 - however, that has changed now that I know how dangerous of a game I could be playing with the stock internals if I were to just run them for another year, so I think I'll stick with the basics for now and will just do cams with fresh lifters, cam bearings, & tensioner shoes. As much as I'd like to increase the displacement, the couple of comments about a 107 not being worth the money means I should be looking at 110" - which is definitely out of my price range, for a while anyway.

I've resolved myself to the fact that if and when I go bigger, I'm just gonna have to buy new cams to match at that point.

1FSTRK

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 21, 2019, 10:33:15 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 09:28:45 AM
Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.

Well, my original realistic budget this year for the bike was $0 - however, that has changed now that I know how dangerous of a game I could be playing with the stock internals if I were to just run them for another year, so I think I'll stick with the basics for now and will just do cams with fresh lifters, cam bearings, & tensioner shoes. As much as I'd like to increase the displacement, the couple of comments about a 107 not being worth the money means I should be looking at 110" - which is definitely out of my price range, for a while anyway.

I've resolved myself to the fact that if and when I go bigger, I'm just gonna have to buy new cams to match at that point.

The new cams will be a power difference you can feel and if/when you take them out you should get at least half the price back when you sell them used. The value of the peace of mind you get from knowing the lifters and cam bearings are changed out is priceless. Sounds like a solid plan.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Hossamania

Include a proper tune in your budget, not just a download. While a download will work, it is not optimal.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Thermodyne

At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.

1FSTRK

Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.


Are You kidding me?
There is nothing wrong with his bike, he has no problems or complaints. Thought he would do some preventive maintenance and maybe add a cam upgrade and you have the sky falling.
Cylinders are shot, crank out, rockers loose, man talk about a fear mongering sales approach. So should every person riding a bike with 48,000 miles stop beside the road an pull the engine down to look for all these problems? What about at 47,000 miles or 35,000, where should the fear start?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."


Thermodyne

I didn't say that at all.  I said he should check.   

I don't know how many times I've had people say, "it didn't do that before the cams were changed".   

PoorUB

 Boy oh boy, that went from cams to a major over haul real fast! :missed:

I wouldn't worry about dropping a set of cams in a TC with 50,000 miles on it, as long as it is running good and check the crank run out!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 03:40:26 PM
Include a proper tune in your budget, not just a download. While a download will work, it is not optimal.

Eventually, I'll pony up for a tune sometime this spring/summer, but the tune I get should from Fuel Moto should get me by. I definitely realize that I'll be leaving some power & efficiency on the table until I get it on a dyno.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 21, 2019, 05:04:40 PM
Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.


Are You kidding me?
There is nothing wrong with his bike, he has no problems or complaints. Thought he would do some preventive maintenance and maybe add a cam upgrade and you have the sky falling.
Cylinders are shot, crank out, rockers loose, man talk about a fear mongering sales approach. So should every person riding a bike with 48,000 miles stop beside the road an pull the engine down to look for all these problems? What about at 47,000 miles or 35,000, where should the fear start?

Gentlemen,

I can appreciate what Thermo is saying - adding more power (we're not talking much here, from what I understand) to an engine could cause any of the array of complimenting components to reveal additional issues waiting in the wings; however, as 1FSTRK has stated, it's not that I'm experiencing any issues with my engine at this time - in fact, it has been running well and has been a pretty quiet motor for a twin cam. My '11 FLHX was louder than this one on the top end - I used to called it the "angry sewing machine"

The primary reason I'm even going this far now is actually to avoid such a catastrophic event, especially given the known variables that could cause such an event.

I did plan on checking the crank runout on the cam side - not only out of curiosity and because my buddy has the tool, but also I'm hoping it will be a quick litmus test of the overall health of my engine, to a degree. A different buddy of mine actually suggested that once the cams are in, that I should pull the rocker boxes off and confirm that the rocker arm angle of travel with the increased lift of the new cams doesn't place stress or ride off center of the valve stem, such as riding/hitting on a spring keeper. Since pulling the rocker box tops also isn't that difficult, I'll likely do that as well. At least I'd get some eyes on those components too.

This same buddy also has a leak-down tester, so it would be easy to check that as well.



1FSTRK

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 22, 2019, 06:25:59 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 21, 2019, 05:04:40 PM
Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.


Are You kidding me?
There is nothing wrong with his bike, he has no problems or complaints. Thought he would do some preventive maintenance and maybe add a cam upgrade and you have the sky falling.
Cylinders are shot, crank out, rockers loose, man talk about a fear mongering sales approach. So should every person riding a bike with 48,000 miles stop beside the road an pull the engine down to look for all these problems? What about at 47,000 miles or 35,000, where should the fear start?

Gentlemen,

I can appreciate what Thermo is saying - adding more power (we're not talking much here, from what I understand) to an engine could cause any of the array of complimenting components to reveal additional issues waiting in the wings; however, as 1FSTRK has stated, it's not that I'm experiencing any issues with my engine at this time - in fact, it has been running well and has been a pretty quiet motor for a twin cam. My '11 FLHX was louder than this one on the top end - I used to called it the "angry sewing machine"

The primary reason I'm even going this far now is actually to avoid such a catastrophic event, especially given the known variables that could cause such an event.

I did plan on checking the crank runout on the cam side - not only out of curiosity and because my buddy has the tool, but also I'm hoping it will be a quick litmus test of the overall health of my engine, to a degree. A different buddy of mine actually suggested that once the cams are in, that I should pull the rocker boxes off and confirm that the rocker arm angle of travel with the increased lift of the new cams doesn't place stress or ride off center of the valve stem, such as riding/hitting on a spring keeper. Since pulling the rocker box tops also isn't that difficult, I'll likely do that as well. At least I'd get some eyes on those components too.

This same buddy also has a leak-down tester, so it would be easy to check that as well.

Just to be clear I did not mean to imply some of these things should not be checked. A CCP test is part of routine maintenance, crank run-out should be checked and recorded anytime cams are removed, a leak down test is quick and easy with the pushrods removed. Remember to look at all of these in regard to a 50,000 mile engine not the new factory specs, we are looking for normal wear or more to the point abnormal numbers that may call for further investigation. Most well tuned and maintained bikes will fall right in line with this mileage and after the cam upgrade go easily for another 50,000.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Shadowbennie


[/quote]

Just to be clear I did not mean to imply some of these things should not be checked. A CCP test is part of routine maintenance, crank run-out should be checked and recorded anytime cams are removed, a leak down test is quick and easy with the pushrods removed. Remember to look at all of these in regard to a 50,000 mile engine not the new factory specs, we are looking for normal wear or more to the point abnormal numbers that may call for further investigation. Most well tuned and maintained bikes will fall right in line with this mileage and after the cam upgrade go easily for another 50,000.
[/quote]

Yeah, I'm betting that most guys have done cams well before the mileage I'm at so some of the checks likely aren't done, especially the DIY'ers like me, which maybe is what ilicited Thermo's comments. And I appreciate them. These weren't things I was thinking about until brought up. Makes sense. I don't think anyone expects the unexpected until you start putting more strain on components. I'm pretty sure I can even get my hands on a bore scope (another buddy who is a Subaru mechanic) so I could even take a visual peek at the pistons.

It's down to decision time on the cam now. the CR-570-2 is the front runner for sure, but I'm still considering the Andrews 48 - it's about a hundo cheaper, but I can't seem to find dyno sheets that are similar enough to my bike setup to get a real good feel of the torque band. Lots of accolades for Andrews, but those seem to be slanted due to the fact that they are less expensive. Am I chasing numbers here? It seems to be a bit of a rabbit hole.....

I'll note the CCP, runout, & leakdown readings once I'm balls deep in it & be sure to post them up since I'm not sure where those should be for the mileage I have.

sfmichael

leave it alone for another year and then do a 110" drop in kit

CR575 cams with all the other components you mentioned

freshen the heads up, maybe have them ported if it's in the budget

and a DYNO tune, not a flash / map

Harley Davidson Street Performance (a vendor here) is offering a great deal on a 110 kit and rebuilding your heads - check it out - I don't know how long he'll be offering it

2014-2016 bikes run very well with a good set of mufflers and a good DYNO tune
Colorado Springs, CO.

rhuff

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 21, 2019, 10:33:15 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 21, 2019, 09:28:45 AM
Here's my two cents worth, being an owner of both a pretty well running 95" and stage 1 103": put a cam in it, CR570-2 will be my choice soon on mine, lifters, tensioners and bearings. Adjustable push rods. Tune it properly, and I think you will be pretty happy.
If you have more budget, and really have the horsepower bug, do a 110 bolt on, a cam to match, tune it. Need more than that, talk to a head porter here about your goals, get the headwork done, a 110 bolt on, cam to match the heads, possibly new throttle body and injectors, proper tune, smiles for a long time.
Start with a realistic budget, go from there.

Well, my original realistic budget this year for the bike was $0 - however, that has changed now that I know how dangerous of a game I could be playing with the stock internals if I were to just run them for another year, so I think I'll stick with the basics for now and will just do cams with fresh lifters, cam bearings, & tensioner shoes. As much as I'd like to increase the displacement, the couple of comments about a 107 not being worth the money means I should be looking at 110" - which is definitely out of my price range, for a while anyway.

I've resolved myself to the fact that if and when I go bigger, I'm just gonna have to buy new cams to match at that point.

Honestly, and it's probably too late to get a screaming rate on an ESP from Jim Palmer, but it's worth a shot.  I'm not a ESP kinda guy, but I bought my 2015 RGS with the intention of leaving it stock and racking up miles.  I got 5 years for $1375.  Granted, that was within the 2 year MoCo time frame. 

My guess is you could probably still get a 5 year for around 2K?  If you're not really interested in more power as primary concern, save your money and maybe see what that ESP would cost. 

**EDIT**  Just looked.  4 years for $1600.  Not pennies, but probably gonna be in line with what you have planned unless you do the labor yourself. 

PoorUB

Put the $1600 into a savings account ear marked for HD warranty type repairs. You will be farther ahead.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

1FSTRK

That is what I like about this forum, always more than one way to look at things.
For me cheap insurance is doing the maintenance. I this case I would add the cams and tune, why ride a stock bike that may or may not puke a bearing or lifter while the insurance company has you money or it sits in the bank doing nothing when you could be without that same money but riding a fully maintained stage two bike that runs better than it did when it was new and will be totally reliable for the next 50,000 miles.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

Shadowbennie

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 24, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
That is what I like about this forum, always more than one way to look at things.
For me cheap insurance is doing the maintenance. I this case I would add the cams and tune, why ride a stock bike that may or may not puke a bearing or lifter while the insurance company has you money or it sits in the bank doing nothing when you could be without that same money but riding a fully maintained stage two bike that runs better than it did when it was new and will be totally reliable for the next 50,000 miles.

I agree, it's great to get an array of opinions. The suggestion of looking into a warranty is certainly a valid one - that's just not for me. I've always been a little skeptical about buying extended warranties anyway, but given that I'm going to be doing all of the work myself, I'm still dollars ahead AND I should have a better running, reliable bike for quite some time.

Hossamania

Quote from: Shadowbennie on January 24, 2019, 02:47:29 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 24, 2019, 12:27:12 PM
That is what I like about this forum, always more than one way to look at things.
For me cheap insurance is doing the maintenance. I this case I would add the cams and tune, why ride a stock bike that may or may not puke a bearing or lifter while the insurance company has you money or it sits in the bank doing nothing when you could be without that same money but riding a fully maintained stage two bike that runs better than it did when it was new and will be totally reliable for the next 50,000 miles.

I agree, it's great to get an array of opinions. The suggestion of looking into a warranty is certainly a valid one - that's just not for me. I've always been a little skeptical about buying extended warranties anyway, but given that I'm going to be doing all of the work myself, I'm still dollars ahead AND I should have a better running, reliable bike for quite some time.

That.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

harpwrench

Don't assume that if the crank has low runout that it's good to go for another 50k or even 5k miles. The rod bearings can go bad at pretty much any time whether your runout is good or not, stock or modified, with no symptoms until they start spraying metal debris and knocking. This isn't chicken little hollering the sky is falling, it's just a reality. I just had to put a crank in my '16 at 54k, rods sticking, the only reason I caught it early is because I had the jugs off to do a big bore kit. GMR posted a video on his Facebook page last month with 16k all stock and it was worse. This is my third twin cam to have rod problems, the other two showed themselves at around 70k. I don't do burnouts holeshots or other stupid stuff.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: harpwrench on January 24, 2019, 04:25:13 PM
Don't assume that if the crank has low runout that it's good to go for another 50k or even 5k miles. The rod bearings can go bad at pretty much any time whether your runout is good or not, stock or modified, with no symptoms until they start spraying metal debris and knocking. This isn't chicken little hollering the sky is falling, it's just a reality. I just had to put a crank in my '16 at 54k, rods sticking, the only reason I caught it early is because I had the jugs off to do a big bore kit. GMR posted a video on his Facebook page last month with 16k all stock and it was worse. This is my third twin cam to have rod problems, the other two showed themselves at around 70k. I don't do burnouts holeshots or other stupid stuff.

Well, again, I think this is a matter of perspective - could any other component of my engine grenade on me at any point in the next 1 to 50k miles? Sure. What are the chances? I think 1FSTRK had stated earlier - for every person who has had an issue with their harley, there's another who has had 100k of trouble free miles that never even thought to change anything out - they're your more prototypical HD owner.

I'm not discounting the fact that the MOCO has put out its fair share of product with questionable quality at times, but my thought is that if I'm mitigating known risks with a fairly inexpensive investment now, I personally feel it's a good investment. Hey, if my engine blows up, it was meant to be - then I guess I have no choice but to do a 124"!  :bike:

Shadowbennie

February 18, 2019, 07:12:11 AM #40 Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:54:11 AM by Shadowbennie
Welp, dug into the heart of the ol' girl yesterday so I could prepare for resuscitation soon. Overall, everything looked ok - but there is some wear on the lifters & cams that appear to be a little frosting, nothing major, but enough that tells me it's probably a good thing I'm tearing into it now.

Surprisingly enough, the rear cam chain tensioner had even less wear then the front and showed no pock marking like the front. The inner cam bearings still look strong, but of course, those are gonna be replaced with torringtons. The lifter bores looked good as well.

Soon I hope to hear the engine roar to life with the new cams, and hopefully at some point I'll actually be able to ride it - forecast is calling for another round of 3-6" of snow.....those groundhogs are full of chit!

A couple of pics, hopefully these are clear enough.


motolocopat

MotoLocoPat  2015 FLTRXS, 2013FLHX, 2010FXDF
2006 Ducati S2R1000, 2004 KTM950

Shadowbennie

Quote from: motolocopat on February 19, 2019, 10:28:22 PM
hood deal. What did you decide to do in the end?

Went with the cam package from Fuel Moto in the end. I called a few places recommended by folks here, and those guys I talked to certainly were happy to discuss my desired outcome and such. But now I have a few additional options I can turn to besides FM if I ever take upgrades a little further - i.e. I'm gonna look up BVHOG for the dyno tune as he's pretty close to me.

FM was running a moving sale special which knocked down the total to under $680 for everything. Got CR-570-2 cams, Woods alpha lifters, the kit came with S&S time saver pushrods as I guess FM was out of the smith bros rods and weren't sure when they were going to get some - not really a big deal I suppose. Sticking with a basic stage 2 for now, until I can build up more fun tickets for the real deal - which will be a couple years away, at least.

e-glide90

Quote from: Shadowbennie on February 20, 2019, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: motolocopat on February 19, 2019, 10:28:22 PM
hood deal. What did you decide to do in the end?

Went with the cam package from Fuel Moto in the end. I called a few places recommended by folks here, and those guys I talked to certainly were happy to discuss my desired outcome and such. But now I have a few additional options I can turn to besides FM if I ever take upgrades a little further - i.e. I'm gonna look up BVHOG for the dyno tune as he's pretty close to me.

FM was running a moving sale special which knocked down the total to under $680 for everything. Got CR-570-2 cams, Woods alpha lifters, the kit came with S&S time saver pushrods as I guess FM was out of the smith bros rods and weren't sure when they were going to get some - not really a big deal I suppose. Sticking with a basic stage 2 for now, until I can build up more fun tickets for the real deal - which will be a couple years away, at least.
:up: :up: BV HOG  will do you right!!

Shadowbennie

Took a few of the parts out of the oil pump today, looked okay, pretty big score mark in one area tho - ok to run as-is? I will state that I'e had what I consider normal oil pressure - 35-40 ish when cold, 12 psi or so when hot
[attach=1]

ultra200922

+1 On BVHOG. I am very happy with the work he did for me. :up:
You only live once, but if you do it right once is enough.

Shadowbennie

Well hell, found my first major snafu- front cylinder head has an issue. Did a leakdown test, rear cylinder had 6% leakage, but when we did the front air was coming out of the throttle body - 70% leakage, so that's a problem! So off come the heads!

Pinion shaft runout was at .005, which is okay I guess. Will run that as-is.

Will it be wise to stick with the CR-570 even if I have the heads ported & polished, and use a Cometic .030 gasket to bump the compression? I thought I had read that the 570 is good up to about 10:2? Concerns with valve clearance with reworked heads & .030 gasket with the 570 cam?

topcat3815

I have a 14 limited twin cooled with S&S air cleaner fuel moto head pipes and supertrapp mufflers with power vision and target tune and a cr 570 cam. Talked to wes at Cr told him what I had and that I was going to put a set of street port heads with a .030  hg wanting his recommendation for a cam and he said the 570 was fine for that set up. Hope this helps

Shadowbennie

Quote from: topcat3815 on February 23, 2019, 11:30:05 AM
I have a 14 limited twin cooled with S&S air cleaner fuel moto head pipes and supertrapp mufflers with power vision and target tune and a cr 570 cam. Talked to wes at Cr told him what I had and that I was going to put a set of street port heads with a .030  hg wanting his recommendation for a cam and he said the 570 was fine for that set up. Hope this helps

Good info, I pretty much came to the same conclusion as well from the conversations I've had with a few vendors of this cam. Thx!

Shadowbennie

Quote from: topcat3815 on February 23, 2019, 11:30:05 AM
I have a 14 limited twin cooled with S&S air cleaner fuel moto head pipes and supertrapp mufflers with power vision and target tune and a cr 570 cam. Talked to wes at Cr told him what I had and that I was going to put a set of street port heads with a .030  hg wanting his recommendation for a cam and he said the 570 was fine for that set up. Hope this helps

Researching this a little further to try to confirm whether a .030 gasket will not put my CCP at an unreasonably high level as it seems I've read that the CR-570 with stock head gaskets runs around 190 CCP - according to the bigboyz calculator, if I run a .030 gasket with an otherwise stock motor with the CR 570's, it's coming up with a theoretical static compression of 9.9 to 10:1 & a CCP in the low to mid 190's at 850ft above sea level - of course the actual CC's of my stock heads as well as having some compression loss (6% compression loss in my rear cylinder) due to age of the motor will effect this, but is this a good target to try to hit or should I stick with the stock head gasket to achieve CCP more in the mid 180's to give me some wiggle room on the octane of gas I can run?

Unfortunately, my lack of experience led me to tear my bike down before establishing my baseline CCP, so I'm working off of pure conjecture and theoretical numbers, but it is what it is at this point.

PoorUB

If you have the heads off I would CC the heads and see where they end up. If they are 85CC the .030" head gasket will give you a nice bump and with a decent tune.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Durwood

Having already "been there done that" I would not remove the heads for the sole purpose of switching head gaskets to bump compression.

The work involved far outweighs the few % of power gained with the small compression increase. JMO

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Durwood on February 28, 2019, 04:40:41 AM
Having already "been there done that" I would not remove the heads for the sole purpose of switching head gaskets to bump compression.

The work involved far outweighs the few % of power gained with the small compression increase. JMO

Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, certainly a lot of work for a minimal gain. Unfortunately though, I had to pull the heads as my front cylinder had 70% loss on the compression leakdown test performed last weekend, air was rushing through the throttle body, so I pulled em both to at the very least do a valve job & freshen them up where necessary. Still deciding if I'm going to have them ported, but that's definitely more $$ than I had planned on spending  :emoGroan:

I'm chalking it up to a chunk of carbon stuck my intake valve open when I cut the pushrods to install the cams, but I don't know this for sure, so why I'm looking at the very least, a refresh of seals & lapping the valves. I'm thinking it was just a hunk of carbon sticking it open though, as there were some pretty damn big chunks on top of the piston when I removed the front head and the bike was running well last fall when I shut 'er down for the winter -

Upon visual inspection, the valves look good in their seats and I've checked for large & obvious leaks by shining a small bore light into the intake port while covering the chamber to block ambient light, and also have poured some WD-40 in the chamber over the valve - not one drop made it through, so these two tests indicate that the valve isn't really out of whack...I'm sure that doesn't tell the whole story as 100psi of air is different than just letting a liquid sit on top of the valve, but I'd think at a 70% loss, either of my two tests would've revealed something.

All moot points I guess since they're off, thus why I'm even considering the .030 gasket. Otherwise, if both cylinders would've tested good (6% loss on the rear) I would've already had it back together and not bothered with anything else.

PoorUB

Like I said, if the heads are off use the .030" head gasket. I would not even hesitate.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

rigidthumper

70% leakdown could very well have been a result of measuring with the piston at TDC overlap instead of TDC compression. If you have the heads off, prop them upright/level so you can fill the chambers with fluid- if it doesn't immediately leak into the ports, then the 70% leak down isn't accurate.


I like the additional benefits of running a tighter quench with the .030" head gaskets.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Shadowbennie

Quote from: PoorUB on February 28, 2019, 06:58:41 AM
Like I said, if the heads are off use the .030" head gasket. I would not even hesitate.

Duly noted! It was the direction I was leaning - just making sure the numbers I was seeing on the calculator weren't putting the engine under un-due stress.

I spoke with Bean at BigBoyz and he was recommending keeping CCP at 175-180 for most street applications, but seems I've been reading closer to 200 is ideal?

Durwood

If the heads are off, then by all means use the .030" head gasket.
Quote from: rigidthumper on February 28, 2019, 07:05:07 AM
70% leakdown could very well have been a result of measuring with the piston at TDC overlap instead of TDC compression. If you have the heads off, prop them upright/level so you can fill the chambers with fluid- if it doesn't immediately leak into the ports, then the 70% leak down isn't accurate.


I like the additional benefits of running a tighter quench with the .030" head gaskets.
Agreed. Leak down testing can be tricky with the push rods installed. I put them on TDC and use my crank locking tool in the CPS hole. Works great.

Shadowbennie

February 28, 2019, 07:58:07 AM #57 Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 01:59:57 PM by Shadowbennie
Quote from: rigidthumper on February 28, 2019, 07:05:07 AM
70% leakdown could very well have been a result of measuring with the piston at TDC overlap instead of TDC compression. If you have the heads off, prop them upright/level so you can fill the chambers with fluid- if it doesn't immediately leak into the ports, then the 70% leak down isn't accurate.


I like the additional benefits of running a tighter quench with the .030" head gaskets.

It couldn't have been an issue of where it was at TDC, the pushrods were cut and out, so all valves were completely closed (supposedly). When removing the pushrods, I made sure that the rear was on overlap, i.e. able to easily spin the front two with my fingers, and cut the front two, then followed the same procedure for the rears, putting the front cam on overlap.

When we tested the front, visually confirmed the piston was at TD and locked up the comp with a block of wood to keep the air from forcing the piston down - that's why the amount of loss is such a strange reading given no pushrods to potentially have the TDC at overlap vs. compression and knowing the bike ran fine last fall. If I were getting 70% loss at all late last year during riding season, I don't think the bike would've run at all, agreed?

sfmichael

agree - might have dislodged a piece of carbon or something weird

don't overthink it - I always recommend freshening up the heads as I doubt the valve job from the factory is optimum even when new

not bitching, just the results of mass production

several very talented machinists on the forum that can help you if needed

best to use a guy that well-versed in HD but any talented machinist can do what you need

Colorado Springs, CO.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: sfmichael on February 28, 2019, 06:23:26 PM
agree - might have dislodged a piece of carbon or something weird

don't overthink it - I always recommend freshening up the heads as I doubt the valve job from the factory is optimum even when new

not bitching, just the results of mass production

several very talented machinists on the forum that can help you if needed

best to use a guy that well-versed in HD but any talented machinist can do what you need

Right on, I'm calling it an anomaly at this point, but it's probably better that I took the heads off to confirm - bad things could've happened if there were actually something like a bent valve, etc. and I just slapped it together and fired it up.

I'll just re-fresh parts as necessary since they're off, run a .030 gasket, & hopefully button this up in the next couple of weeks. I freakin love this forum, so much knowledge to save the bacon of us novice's - I'm learning valuable stuff tho!

I can't wait to fire it up for the first time after all of this - I expect that my garbage will starting taking itself out, my girl will suddenly resemble Jessica Biel, and my dog will crap only in the neighbor's yard - or am I expecting too much from just a cam & head gasket swap?  :hyst:

PoorUB

My buddy and I have identical 2016 Limiteds. I put in the CR570-2 cams and decatted my head pipe. A month later we were out west in the mountains. We rode up a grade at 60 mph in 6th gear. His completely stock bike would barely pull the grade, pretty sure he was slowly losing speed. I could rollup on him, drop the throttle to get some space between us and roll up on him again.

If you don't feel the difference you need to get your butt dyno tuned up! :hyst:
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

sfmichael

Quote from: Shadowbennie on March 01, 2019, 10:38:30 AM
Quote from: sfmichael on February 28, 2019, 06:23:26 PM
agree - might have dislodged a piece of carbon or something weird

don't overthink it - I always recommend freshening up the heads as I doubt the valve job from the factory is optimum even when new

not bitching, just the results of mass production

several very talented machinists on the forum that can help you if needed

best to use a guy that well-versed in HD but any talented machinist can do what you need

Right on, I'm calling it an anomaly at this point, but it's probably better that I took the heads off to confirm - bad things could've happened if there were actually something like a bent valve, etc. and I just slapped it together and fired it up.

I'll just re-fresh parts as necessary since they're off, run a .030 gasket, & hopefully button this up in the next couple of weeks. I freakin love this forum, so much knowledge to save the bacon of us novice's - I'm learning valuable stuff tho!

I can't wait to fire it up for the first time after all of this - I expect that my garbage will starting taking itself out, my girl will suddenly resemble Jessica Biel, and my dog will crap only in the neighbor's yard - or am I expecting too much from just a cam & head gasket swap? :hyst:

no you're not - with the right dyno tune it'll do all that and more  :bike:

you're in for some fun  :teeth:
Colorado Springs, CO.

1workinman

Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.
There is a lot of truth here , I bought a used and checked out perfect 12 Street Glide with around those miles and with in less that 1 miles on a trip to the dragon the pos went to knocking rod out . From a Harley Dealer ok .   I think the guy that traded it in was smart and the guy who bought it got a education , I had several on Harleys trust me here . Me I would just drive it , the lifters and cam bearing a good idea . I not a fan of crate motors either , or the one I bought . My built engine that I have now yea it does what I want . First off if you pull the engine down to install say a 107 or a 110 kit most shops will rotate the crank assembly several time , If the rods stick up then time to go into the bottom end . Probably a SS crank shaft or who ever . Me I rather have a engine built the way I want it or just drive what you have and replace the lifters and cam bearings maybe a good used 255 and tune it . Power duals or what ever call it good . If the motor give it up me I have one built

Shadowbennie

March 31, 2019, 07:28:56 AM #63 Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 12:44:05 PM by Shadowbennie
 :bike: It's alive! Fired it up late Friday night, what a relief. The lifters were a bit noisy even after a couple of minutes of run time, but it was pretty cold at that time so maybe the oil needed more time to warm up & find its way through. But I need to look into that to make sure the pushrods are adjusted properly, but it could be something I overlooked, was thinking it could be the S&S timesaver Ross are tapping the pushrod covers, or possibly that these woods lifters just need a little more time to pump up, going to run it for more time on a warmer day.

Update: slapped the rest of the body parts on this morning, couldn't wait till it was warmer - started it and it quieted down nicely. I suspected it, but I found that a good deal of the noise I was hearing was coming through the throttle body since I don't have my air cleaner on yet. I think I'm good to go!

Next step, get it tuned!

Thanks to everyone who offered technical advice and especially to those who talked me off the ledge during this cam, bearings, lifter swap process!

Don D

 :up:
Change the cam, inner bearings, lifters, check the runout and oil pump and move on with a good pipe and tune. After that just service.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: PoorUB on March 01, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
My buddy and I have identical 2016 Limiteds. I put in the CR570-2 cams and decatted my head pipe. A month later we were out west in the mountains. We rode up a grade at 60 mph in 6th gear. His completely stock bike would barely pull the grade, pretty sure he was slowly losing speed. I could rollup on him, drop the throttle to get some space between us and roll up on him again.

If you don't feel the difference you need to get your butt dyno tuned up! :hyst:

Took a quick spin around town & a little highway to twist it a bit, hot damn! There is a noticeable improvement & I was even running my power vision in tuning mode. I swear it's louder & sounds more ballsy too.

Gonna try to run a few more tuning runs and then run it like that until I can get it to a tuner, hopefully within the month. I'm really intrigued with how this thing is gonna run with a spot on tune!

sfmichael

Quote from: Shadowbennie on April 01, 2019, 06:41:40 PM
Quote from: PoorUB on March 01, 2019, 01:24:56 PM
My buddy and I have identical 2016 Limiteds. I put in the CR570-2 cams and decatted my head pipe. A month later we were out west in the mountains. We rode up a grade at 60 mph in 6th gear. His completely stock bike would barely pull the grade, pretty sure he was slowly losing speed. I could rollup on him, drop the throttle to get some space between us and roll up on him again.

If you don't feel the difference you need to get your butt dyno tuned up! :hyst:

Took a quick spin around town & a little highway to twist it a bit, hot damn! There is a noticeable improvement & I was even running my power vision in tuning mode. I swear it's louder & sounds more ballsy too.

Gonna try to run a few more tuning runs and then run it like that until I can get it to a tuner, hopefully within the month. I'm really intrigued with how this thing is gonna run with a spot on tune!

   :baby:
Colorado Springs, CO.

Shadowbennie

Update - I've been running my new setup for a little over a month now, and it continues to impress. Had a bit of an oil weep at one of the front pushrod o-rings at the head, so switched them out, all good - then found a small oil weep at the rear cylinder at the lower rocker box gasket - dove in to perform some minor surgery on that and got it sorted out - all dry now and running great.

Still need to get it to a tuner, but work & weekend schedules have prevented me from doing so - well, along with our shitty MN weather this year.

BUT, I think I'm getting some clutch slip when I really romp on it. What's the general rule of thumb of what the the stock clutch spring can handle?

I can't imagine I'm over, or even pushing, ~115 ft/lbs of torque.....but I'm pretty sure she's slipping.

Thoughts on getting an AIM VPC?

PoorUB

What was your final choice of parts? Cams, head gasket, exhaust, AC?
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Shadowbennie

May 06, 2019, 05:39:17 PM #69 Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 05:48:30 PM by Shadowbennie
Quote from: PoorUB on May 06, 2019, 05:24:23 PM
What was your final choice of parts? Cams, head gasket, exhaust, AC?

I went with the CR-570-II, stayed with the exhaust I already had, which is Dragos Dragula 2 w/2.5” baffle. Thru the process (long story which involves my boneheaded decision to try to clean up carbon with the wrong tool) I ended up having the heads decked .009” to fix my mess-up during cleaning & to true them up, and put in new stock valves, new stock springs & seals. Tried to keep the costs low, so no port or valve job at this time. Also new woods alpha lifters, Koyo ICB’s & S&S time saver adjustable pushrods.

At the recommendation of the guy who did the headwork, and to try keep the CCP around 190-ish (assumed calc based on stock CC, minus the .009”), I did a .040” HG. Probably could’ve gone with a .030 HG, but then I would’ve been pushing 195+ CCP (calculated) & I wasn’t sure I wanted to push the CCP that high at this point. Maybe later on during the next upgrade, if I end up taking the next step.

AC is a Fuel Moto billet AC I was running before the cam upgrade.

And Poor, you were right about these CR’s , the power available in 6th with a roll on is dramatic. There’s passing power in that gear now, whereas with stock, it would just groan and sloooowly climb up in speed. These cams really shine if you kick it down a gear, she’ll throw ya back in the seat!

Chippitt68

Quote from: Shadowbennie on May 06, 2019, 10:38:41 AM
Update - I've been running my new setup for a little over a month now, and it continues to impress. Had a bit of an oil weep at one of the front pushrod o-rings at the head, so switched them out, all good - then found a small oil weep at the rear cylinder at the lower rocker box gasket - dove in to perform some minor surgery on that and got it sorted out - all dry now and running great.

Still need to get it to a tuner, but work & weekend schedules have prevented me from doing so - well, along with our shitty MN weather this year.

BUT, I think I'm getting some clutch slip when I really romp on it. What's the general rule of thumb of what the the stock clutch spring can handle?

I can't imagine I'm over, or even pushing, ~115 ft/lbs of torque.....but I'm pretty sure she's slipping.

Thoughts on getting an AIM VPC?
I'm at 115tq and stock clutch with se spring doesn't slip

Hossamania

As far as the clutch goes, you might want to pull it apart and inspect the steels and fibers, they may need replacement if original, those plus the SE spring will probably be fine, you probably won't need the vpc.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Shadowbennie

Quote from: Hossamania on May 06, 2019, 06:56:55 PM
As far as the clutch goes, you might want to pull it apart and inspect the steels and fibers, they may need replacement if original, those plus the SE spring will probably be fine, you probably won't need the vpc.

Hey Hoss (and all) - yeah, I'm guessing the steels and/or fibers might be due for replacement. I took my ride to BVHOG last friday to have it tuned, he noted he thought the clutch was slipping just a little in the final roll-ons, but the engine stayed together (whew!) and is running like a top! I will admit that I did get a little anxious before Bob did the final set of redline roll-ons, there's no better test to the job you've done, and I was gonna find out!

Bob did an excellent job, and it was fun to watch him work. I'm going to try to milk the clutch until this winter, i'll tear it down and replace with new fibers & steels & upgrade the spring at that point.

I did switch out the Schaeffer's syn primary back to formula + before the tune, think I'm gonna stick with formula + from here on out, especially if I decide to go with carbonite fiber plates as I believe you're not supposed to run syn primary with those.

Ended up at 118-120 torque/~97 HP - with a power band as flat as a table top! A nice solid outing and I'm real happy! The throttle response is smooth as butter all the way through the RPM range now, no dips, hesitation, or punchyness unless I want it!

klammer76

Quote from: Shadowbennie on July 02, 2019, 07:53:26 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on May 06, 2019, 06:56:55 PM
As far as the clutch goes, you might want to pull it apart and inspect the steels and fibers, they may need replacement if original, those plus the SE spring will probably be fine, you probably won't need the vpc.

Hey Hoss (and all) - yeah, I'm guessing the steels and/or fibers might be due for replacement. I took my ride to BVHOG last friday to have it tuned, he noted he thought the clutch was slipping just a little in the final roll-ons, but the engine stayed together (whew!) and is running like a top! I will admit that I did get a little anxious before Bob did the final set of redline roll-ons, there's no better test to the job you've done, and I was gonna find out!

Bob did an excellent job, and it was fun to watch him work. I'm going to try to milk the clutch until this winter, i'll tear it down and replace with new fibers & steels & upgrade the spring at that point.

I did switch out the Schaeffer's syn primary back to formula + before the tune, think I'm gonna stick with formula + from here on out, especially if I decide to go with carbonite fiber plates as I believe you're not supposed to run syn primary with those.

Ended up at 118-120 torque/~97 HP - with a power band as flat as a table top! A nice solid outing and I'm real happy! The throttle response is smooth as butter all the way through the RPM range now, no dips, hesitation, or punchyness unless I want it!
Nice job!

1workinman

Quote from: Thermodyne on January 21, 2019, 04:40:57 PM
At 48K, you had better do some diagnostic work before you start spending money.  Sometimes they need so much work that a crate motor become the economical fix.  Or the wallet dictates an regular budget overhaul to buy some miles and time while you build up the war chest.  At the very least, you should replace the tappets at that mileage.  The tensioners wouldn't worry me, as they tend to wear down to the rollers and then stay like that indefinitely.

Compression and leakage tests.
Bore scope it and read the piston domes.
I'd bet money on the rear jug being more than 007 out of round.  And you need to check the piston skirts at tear down.  More than a few of them show embedded metal particles, which is usually a crank pin or rod surface brinelling.   

Then you need to check the run out on the crank, both ends.  As well as see what the rod fit is like.

Adding power to a 50K twin cam can bring to light a lot of issues that really were very noticeable when it was stock.

After that you pretty much have it covered as far as the cams and valve system.  You should check the rocker shaft fit in the supports.  They tend to wear loose over time.
Words of wisdom here . I bought a used 12 Street Glide , that had some where in that range checked out and ready to go at the Harley dealer . Crank went out in less than a 1k miles . I like the guys at the dealer it was not personal but stock Harley motors I have little faith in them . If I had a stock Harley that lasted that long I would install a set of new SS or who ever not Harley lifters ,  cam bearings and buy a good used cam . 255 or what ever and tune it . I the last person to give advice on saving a dollar or two on Harleys .

sfmichael

Quote from: Shadowbennie on July 02, 2019, 07:53:26 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on May 06, 2019, 06:56:55 PM
As far as the clutch goes, you might want to pull it apart and inspect the steels and fibers, they may need replacement if original, those plus the SE spring will probably be fine, you probably won't need the vpc.

Hey Hoss (and all) - yeah, I'm guessing the steels and/or fibers might be due for replacement. I took my ride to BVHOG last friday to have it tuned, he noted he thought the clutch was slipping just a little in the final roll-ons, but the engine stayed together (whew!) and is running like a top! I will admit that I did get a little anxious before Bob did the final set of redline roll-ons, there's no better test to the job you've done, and I was gonna find out!

Bob did an excellent job, and it was fun to watch him work. I'm going to try to milk the clutch until this winter, i'll tear it down and replace with new fibers & steels & upgrade the spring at that point.

I did switch out the Schaeffer's syn primary back to formula + before the tune, think I'm gonna stick with formula + from here on out, especially if I decide to go with carbonite fiber plates as I believe you're not supposed to run syn primary with those.

Ended up at 118-120 torque/~97 HP - with a power band as flat as a table top! A nice solid outing and I'm real happy! The throttle response is smooth as butter all the way through the RPM range now, no dips, hesitation, or punchyness unless I want it!


that's a solid performer for a 103" motor - well done to all involved  :beer:
Colorado Springs, CO.