Question about big CI engines

[harleytq]

Just wondering if a big CI engine will make way more engine braking. I installed an S&S lc 124, in my 06 ultra, the middle of last summer and seem to be getting a massive amount of engine braking. Seriously feels like someone hitting the rear brake when I let off the throttle. Bike seems to be running great, but this kinda catches me by surprise letting off coming into a turn. Is this just something you have to get used to?

[kd]

Excessive engine braking like you describe is one of the symptoms of sumping.  My 120 at 11:1 and 200 cop is not radical on decel.

[harleytq]

This is a crate engine that has never been apart, is sumping at all common on the S&S 124? Sounds like they have some completely different camplate and oil pump, are they better or worse? Do I check for it the same as any engine, didnt really pay attention if they had the plug in the bottom of the crankcase or not?

Could an exhaust system cause the excessive engine braking? Seem unlikely, I got good HP on the dyno, but thought I would ask.

[Hossamania]

What kind of rpms are you talking about with the engine braking?
Does the bike roll easily in neutral when pushing it around the garage? Just asking to make sure it isn't brake drag or something similar.

[harleytq]

Well its noticeable at any RPM but of coarse at higher RPM it is more noticeable. I would say maybe 3000 to 4000?
Rolls easy is neutral, brakes are good.

[1FSTRK]

Is this an EFI bike?

[Don D]

There are some maps that cut the fuel at 0 throttle then come back just above idle, annoying.

[Mattbastard]

Yup, if you can add decel fuel it'll lessen the engine braking. 

[Ranze]

I sold mine 124" S&S from hot set up kit, high comp/640 cams. It went younger guy & Dyna, which maybe is better combination than -02 sledge and older guy.

What i didn't like was that it was feeling "Maserati engine on John Deere". Lots of power, but you really get it high rews and frame dont allow go extremely fast. Better buy f**ing Hayabusa. Engine braking was pretty noticeable too, even carburated engine.

Now i have new build, lil' strokie 106, S&S crank too but mild cams, original heads. Just get punch of torque when passing with passenger.

[harleytq]

Is this an EFI bike?

Yes it is EFI

[harleytq]

There are some maps that cut the fuel at 0 throttle then come back just above idle, annoying.

Are you saying in the decel, like Matt says too?
Now that I think about it, it does have this funny sound when decelerating and then I hit the throttle again, like the engine is refiring or something.
So I looked at my VE of the front cyl and at 0 throttle its at 67.0 then goes to 66.5 then back to 67.0 the rear cyl is higher I think in the 86.0 range. I'm not that good at this stuff, do these numbers appear too low?

[harpwrench]

Some calibrations shut off the injectors on decel

[harleytq]

Some calibrations shut off the injectors on decel

How do I tell if its doing that?

[harpwrench]

Do you have a supertuner or ?? Data logging will show what it's doing, if you're using a tuner that you can collect the data.

[1FSTRK]

What brand of tuner are you using?
Do you know what Calibration is in the bike?

[itsafatboy]

do those motors have the S&S reed valve in the cam chest. if so I bet its sumpiing ,  that one way valve they put behind cam plate does not work, just not sure they are still using it,   when you run a one way on the heads wich is fine , but add a one way on the bottom end it will cause problems , it will sump the cam chest   

[turboprop]

do those motors have the S&S reed valve in the cam chest. if so I bet its sumpiing ,  that one way valve they put behind cam plate does not work, just not sure they are still using it,   when you run a one way on the heads wich is fine , but add a one way on the bottom end it will cause problems , it will sump the cam chest

Thats debatable. I put one in the Smack-A-Hoe TC124. S&S case with blue pump and plate. No sumping issues. Engine is a beast. This engine also has several external one way valves. Not only does this engine not sump, but it blows very little oil into the catch can. Even after a couple thousand miles. The problem with this stuff is there are too many that are merely regurgitating what others have written online.

[harleytq]

What brand of tuner are you using?
Do you know what Calibration is in the bike?

Its a TTS tuner
Calibration FNM176-04

[itsafatboy]

yes never used the read valve on my bike , but I have put one way krank vents on my heads on a 116" and when I added one to the cam vent from the RR cam plate , it would sump the bottom end suck oil right out of the crank vent, we tried the SS read valve on some twin cams at the shop had sumping issue every time, but it could also be combo of parts since you are using the blue 3 stage blue pump maybe that would make diff over a standard two stage hd pump , I use the 3 stage billet pump on mine,  also that 124 motor might use the SS oil pump gear drive setup they have.     


I just think when you add one way vents at too many spots on bike from my experience it does different things , on mine caused issues ,   

[BVHOG]

Don't worry man, it's not sumping, simply the map we used with the tts shuts the injectors down, if you stay on the throttle just the smallest bit it won't do it. But to answer the original question, yes you will have more engine braking, not a huge amount like you describe but more than a 95 inch for sure.  And it's like 10 degrees up your way now, when did you get a chance to ride?

[harleytq]

Don't worry man, it's not sumping, simply the map we used with the tts shuts the injectors down, if you stay on the throttle just the smallest bit it won't do it. But to answer the original question, yes you will have more engine braking, not a huge amount like you describe but more than a 95 inch for sure.  And it's like 10 degrees up your way now, when did you get a chance to ride?

Just been thinking about this since last summer wondering if this is normal.
So can that be switched so it doesn't shut the injectors off?

[turboprop]

yes never used the read valve on my bike , but I have put one way krank vents on my heads on a 116" and when I added one to the cam vent from the RR cam plate , it would sump the bottom end suck oil right out of the crank vent, we tried the SS read valve on some twin cams at the shop had sumping issue every time, but it could also be combo of parts since you are using the blue 3 stage blue pump maybe that would make diff over a standard two stage hd pump , I use the 3 stage billet pump on mine,  also that 124 motor might use the SS oil pump gear drive setup they have.     


I just think when you add one way vents at too many spots on bike from my experience it does different things , on mine caused issues ,

I doubt pwmorris is following this thread so you might want to send him a PM. I know that Paul has more one-way valves on his bike than I can imagine and he has done the work to figure out what works and doesnt work on high-reving, big block street engines. Wont put words ins mouth but suspect that what he has found to work best is will probably contradict the internet experts.

[harleytq]

So lets say its not sumping.
Can the  setting in the calibration be changed, so it doesn't shut the injectors off, at closed throttle? Or do you have to start with a calibration that doesn't do that?

[joelp34252]

I have run the S&S reed valve in my bike and it sumped badly. Took it out in the parking lot of a Harley shop in Sioux city Iowa on the way to the races in Bristol Tenn.
went to the S&S race trailer there and bitched. They claimed they had never seen a problem. Thought about putting the POS back in the bike and letting the tech ride it but decided to let them learn on their own. Only happened above 75-80 but then you could watch the oil temp gauge go crazy.

Joel 2001 FLHT

[harleytq]

I have run the S&S reed valve in my bike and it sumped badly. Took it out in the parking lot of a Harley shop in Sioux city Iowa on the way to the races in Bristol Tenn.
went to the S&S race trailer there and bitched. They claimed they had never seen a problem. Thought about putting the POS back in the bike and letting the tech ride it but decided to let them learn on their own. Only happened above 75-80 but then you could watch the oil temp gauge go crazy.

Joel 2001 FLHT

I'm not even sure if mine has that valve, but I do think I have the S&S gear drive oil pump. At least they gave me a service book on it.
But mine seems to run fine cruising down the interstate. Its more of a problem when your trying to rip down a back road and ya let off the throttle, its like holy chit let off on the jake brake!