Question about big CI engines

[harleytq]

Just wondering if a big CI engine will make way more engine braking. I installed an S&S lc 124, in my 06 ultra, the middle of last summer and seem to be getting a massive amount of engine braking. Seriously feels like someone hitting the rear brake when I let off the throttle. Bike seems to be running great, but this kinda catches me by surprise letting off coming into a turn. Is this just something you have to get used to?

[kd]

Excessive engine braking like you describe is one of the symptoms of sumping.  My 120 at 11:1 and 200 cop is not radical on decel.

[harleytq]

This is a crate engine that has never been apart, is sumping at all common on the S&S 124? Sounds like they have some completely different camplate and oil pump, are they better or worse? Do I check for it the same as any engine, didnt really pay attention if they had the plug in the bottom of the crankcase or not?

Could an exhaust system cause the excessive engine braking? Seem unlikely, I got good HP on the dyno, but thought I would ask.

[Hossamania]

What kind of rpms are you talking about with the engine braking?
Does the bike roll easily in neutral when pushing it around the garage? Just asking to make sure it isn't brake drag or something similar.

[harleytq]

Well its noticeable at any RPM but of coarse at higher RPM it is more noticeable. I would say maybe 3000 to 4000?
Rolls easy is neutral, brakes are good.

[1FSTRK]

Is this an EFI bike?

[Don D]

There are some maps that cut the fuel at 0 throttle then come back just above idle, annoying.

[Mattbastard]

Yup, if you can add decel fuel it'll lessen the engine braking. 

[Ranze]

I sold mine 124" S&S from hot set up kit, high comp/640 cams. It went younger guy & Dyna, which maybe is better combination than -02 sledge and older guy.

What i didn't like was that it was feeling "Maserati engine on John Deere". Lots of power, but you really get it high rews and frame dont allow go extremely fast. Better buy f**ing Hayabusa. Engine braking was pretty noticeable too, even carburated engine.

Now i have new build, lil' strokie 106, S&S crank too but mild cams, original heads. Just get punch of torque when passing with passenger.

[harleytq]

Is this an EFI bike?

Yes it is EFI

[harleytq]

There are some maps that cut the fuel at 0 throttle then come back just above idle, annoying.

Are you saying in the decel, like Matt says too?
Now that I think about it, it does have this funny sound when decelerating and then I hit the throttle again, like the engine is refiring or something.
So I looked at my VE of the front cyl and at 0 throttle its at 67.0 then goes to 66.5 then back to 67.0 the rear cyl is higher I think in the 86.0 range. I'm not that good at this stuff, do these numbers appear too low?

[harpwrench]

Some calibrations shut off the injectors on decel

[harleytq]

Some calibrations shut off the injectors on decel

How do I tell if its doing that?

[harpwrench]

Do you have a supertuner or ?? Data logging will show what it's doing, if you're using a tuner that you can collect the data.

[1FSTRK]

What brand of tuner are you using?
Do you know what Calibration is in the bike?

[itsafatboy]

do those motors have the S&S reed valve in the cam chest. if so I bet its sumpiing ,  that one way valve they put behind cam plate does not work, just not sure they are still using it,   when you run a one way on the heads wich is fine , but add a one way on the bottom end it will cause problems , it will sump the cam chest   

[turboprop]

do those motors have the S&S reed valve in the cam chest. if so I bet its sumpiing ,  that one way valve they put behind cam plate does not work, just not sure they are still using it,   when you run a one way on the heads wich is fine , but add a one way on the bottom end it will cause problems , it will sump the cam chest

Thats debatable. I put one in the Smack-A-Hoe TC124. S&S case with blue pump and plate. No sumping issues. Engine is a beast. This engine also has several external one way valves. Not only does this engine not sump, but it blows very little oil into the catch can. Even after a couple thousand miles. The problem with this stuff is there are too many that are merely regurgitating what others have written online.

[harleytq]

What brand of tuner are you using?
Do you know what Calibration is in the bike?

Its a TTS tuner
Calibration FNM176-04

[itsafatboy]

yes never used the read valve on my bike , but I have put one way krank vents on my heads on a 116" and when I added one to the cam vent from the RR cam plate , it would sump the bottom end suck oil right out of the crank vent, we tried the SS read valve on some twin cams at the shop had sumping issue every time, but it could also be combo of parts since you are using the blue 3 stage blue pump maybe that would make diff over a standard two stage hd pump , I use the 3 stage billet pump on mine,  also that 124 motor might use the SS oil pump gear drive setup they have.     


I just think when you add one way vents at too many spots on bike from my experience it does different things , on mine caused issues ,   

[BVHOG]

Don't worry man, it's not sumping, simply the map we used with the tts shuts the injectors down, if you stay on the throttle just the smallest bit it won't do it. But to answer the original question, yes you will have more engine braking, not a huge amount like you describe but more than a 95 inch for sure.  And it's like 10 degrees up your way now, when did you get a chance to ride?

[harleytq]

Don't worry man, it's not sumping, simply the map we used with the tts shuts the injectors down, if you stay on the throttle just the smallest bit it won't do it. But to answer the original question, yes you will have more engine braking, not a huge amount like you describe but more than a 95 inch for sure.  And it's like 10 degrees up your way now, when did you get a chance to ride?

Just been thinking about this since last summer wondering if this is normal.
So can that be switched so it doesn't shut the injectors off?

[turboprop]

yes never used the read valve on my bike , but I have put one way krank vents on my heads on a 116" and when I added one to the cam vent from the RR cam plate , it would sump the bottom end suck oil right out of the crank vent, we tried the SS read valve on some twin cams at the shop had sumping issue every time, but it could also be combo of parts since you are using the blue 3 stage blue pump maybe that would make diff over a standard two stage hd pump , I use the 3 stage billet pump on mine,  also that 124 motor might use the SS oil pump gear drive setup they have.     


I just think when you add one way vents at too many spots on bike from my experience it does different things , on mine caused issues ,

I doubt pwmorris is following this thread so you might want to send him a PM. I know that Paul has more one-way valves on his bike than I can imagine and he has done the work to figure out what works and doesnt work on high-reving, big block street engines. Wont put words ins mouth but suspect that what he has found to work best is will probably contradict the internet experts.

[harleytq]

So lets say its not sumping.
Can the  setting in the calibration be changed, so it doesn't shut the injectors off, at closed throttle? Or do you have to start with a calibration that doesn't do that?

[joelp34252]

I have run the S&S reed valve in my bike and it sumped badly. Took it out in the parking lot of a Harley shop in Sioux city Iowa on the way to the races in Bristol Tenn.
went to the S&S race trailer there and bitched. They claimed they had never seen a problem. Thought about putting the POS back in the bike and letting the tech ride it but decided to let them learn on their own. Only happened above 75-80 but then you could watch the oil temp gauge go crazy.

Joel 2001 FLHT

[harleytq]

I have run the S&S reed valve in my bike and it sumped badly. Took it out in the parking lot of a Harley shop in Sioux city Iowa on the way to the races in Bristol Tenn.
went to the S&S race trailer there and bitched. They claimed they had never seen a problem. Thought about putting the POS back in the bike and letting the tech ride it but decided to let them learn on their own. Only happened above 75-80 but then you could watch the oil temp gauge go crazy.

Joel 2001 FLHT

I'm not even sure if mine has that valve, but I do think I have the S&S gear drive oil pump. At least they gave me a service book on it.
But mine seems to run fine cruising down the interstate. Its more of a problem when your trying to rip down a back road and ya let off the throttle, its like holy chit let off on the jake brake!

[1FSTRK]

What brand of tuner are you using?
Do you know what Calibration is in the bike?

Its a TTS tuner
Calibration FNM176-04

You should be able to have your tuner adjust it to your liking.
I have both TTS and Power Vision and my local dyno tuner adjusted both my bikes to fix the problem.

[itsafatboy]

Ya not saying one ways wont work all depends on parts working with then , but we had 10 of those SS reed valves sitting in shop and couldn't get 10$ on ebay for them , sorry but  I have experience with the one way valves on my own bike , like I posted earlier , all I mean is when you use vacuum at multiple spots it might be issue , it didn't work for me on mine the head krank vents worked fine , but adding a vent to cam chest caused sumping , and we havn't had luck with the ss read valve mayube since they were made to run with the SS oil pump cam thing they have,  the way I see it is the reed valve is sucking all from crank area on bike if the pump is not setup to scavage that then it can be issue,  maybe their gear drive all in one oil pump works different not sure,  hope you find the issue 

[harleytq]

Is it just me or do we have 2 threads going on in one here?

[harleytq]

What brand of tuner are you using?
Do you know what Calibration is in the bike?

Its a TTS tuner
Calibration FNM176-04

You should be able to have your tuner adjust it to your liking.
I have both TTS and Power Vision and my local dyno tuner adjusted both my bikes to fix the problem.

So is this something I can do at home, and just change some setting?

[1FSTRK]

What brand of tuner are you using?
Do you know what Calibration is in the bike?

Its a TTS tuner
Calibration FNM176-04

You should be able to have your tuner adjust it to your liking.
I have both TTS and Power Vision and my local dyno tuner adjusted both my bikes to fix the problem.

So is this something I can do at home, and just change some setting?

No matter how i type this is reads like I am trying to be an a$$ about it, I am not.

What you have found is the difference between a tuning device and a tuner. The device gives access to the ecm settings, a tuner is the person that knows how to set them. If you read and follow all the instruction manuals that come with the device you should be able to trial and error your way to the right settings. I personally would rather ride so I payed a tuner to set mine.

I am sure someone here can tell you a quick thing to try or adjust. If you try different base cals, adjust decell spark and fuel, declutch settings and something else I may have missed you will find what effects it most. I think if you are serious about doing your own tuning I would start with getting very familiar with the TTS manuals, it is a powerful device and used properly will make any bike run it's best.

With big or powerful engines the acceleration and deceleration settings are as important as the air fuel and timing when it comes down to having a bike that is a pleasure to ride rather than a handful to control. I would not be look at changing engines or engine parts until I had a good tune on this one.

[Don D]

An experienced tuner can fix your problem, a shop/person. The problem is likely inherent to the calibration and would present the same way in a smaller engine build also. Changing the calibration and a retune will likely fix the problem.

[johnchev89]

Are there any down sides to having a tune like that?
Mine does it also, injectors are off till 2000 rpm.

[harleytq]

1fstrk
I didn't mean that I was tuning it myself, if thats what you though. I was just wondering if it was a quick fix.

So my question is do some of the TTS calibrations do this and some don't?

[Don D]

Yes, so do harleys.

[harleytq]

Yes, so do harleys.

So if I didn't want it to shut off the injectors, I would have to retune with a new calibration? and is there a calibration that doesn't do this for an 06 ultra?

[Don D]

I think it would be wise to engage a tuning shop for answers. Some of these things can be verified easily by people that are familiar with the software but others could be opening a can of worms

[mrmike]

From reading this thread it appears you have had your bike professionally tuned already, if that's the case just bring it back to your Tuner and explain the issue. From what was said here it should be a simple adjustment on his end.

If you haven't had it professionally tuned maybe now is a good time for it.

Mike

[harpwrench]

I don't know if he will but....wouldn't cost anything to ask Steve Cole if he can/will turn on the injectors on decel, on your tuned cal. Doubt he'd just do it for no reason. But if it's making the bike feel unsafe in certain situations then why not. If you get that done then you may have decel popping to deal with. If it's not making your bike feel unsafe but merely bugging you because it's different than before, then I'd just get used to it.

[Don D]

From reading this thread it appears you have had your bike professionally tuned already, if that's the case just bring it back to your Tuner and explain the issue. From what was said here it should be a simple adjustment on his end.

If you haven't had it professionally tuned maybe now is a good time for it.

Mike

This is not an accessable setting in the software

[mrmike]

So this is something that would have to be addressed by the manufacturer?


Mike

[1FSTRK]

So this is something that would have to be addressed by the manufacturer?


Mike

It depends on the brand of tuning device and it's software.
This question might be better addressed in the tuning section so the professional tuners may join in at this point. Personally for a specific bike I would check with his dyno tuner or directly with TTS.

[harleytq]

So this is something that would have to be addressed by the manufacturer?


Mike

That is what I was told.

I don't know if he will but....wouldn't cost anything to ask Steve Cole if he can/will turn on the injectors on decel, on your tuned cal. Doubt he'd just do it for no reason. But if it's making the bike feel unsafe in certain situations then why not. If you get that done then you may have decel popping to deal with. If it's not making your bike feel unsafe but merely bugging you because it's different than before, then I'd just get used to it.

To be honest, it does feel unsafe the way this engine brakes. Its like I bought a performance engine and now I can't really use it, when you come into a turn and let off it just about stops you, like someone is slamming on the rear brake.
I guess I don't know for sure if this is the problem, that is causing the engine braking? Guess thats what some are saying.

[Hossamania]

Has this bike been tuned by a shop? If so, have you talked with the shop that did the tuning? If not, then you should, to both questions.

[kd]

So this is something that would have to be addressed by the manufacturer?


Mike

That is what I was told.

I don't know if he will but....wouldn't cost anything to ask Steve Cole if he can/will turn on the injectors on decel, on your tuned cal. Doubt he'd just do it for no reason. But if it's making the bike feel unsafe in certain situations then why not. If you get that done then you may have decel popping to deal with. If it's not making your bike feel unsafe but merely bugging you because it's different than before, then I'd just get used to it.

To be honest, it does feel unsafe the way this engine brakes. Its like I bought a performance engine and now I can't really use it, when you come into a turn and let off it just about stops you, like someone is slamming on the rear brake.
I guess I don't know for sure if this is the problem, that is causing the engine braking? Guess thats what some are saying.

This type of decel on an off ramp on a rainy day IS dangerous.  Give Steve a call.  He's a smart guy and will discuss it with you.

My TTS tuned 120 HC at 11:1 DOES NOT do this. 

[PoorUB]

You could ask right here on AFR and Tuning section and see what pops up.

I am curious to the answer as the tune in my 2016 Limited with a stage 2 103" has severe engine braking. I haven't taken the time to look at the calibration. No need to with 2 feet of snow out side!

[BVHOG]

From reading this thread it appears you have had your bike professionally tuned already, if that's the case just bring it back to your Tuner and explain the issue. From what was said here it should be a simple adjustment on his end.

If you haven't had it professionally tuned maybe now is a good time for it.

Mike

This is not an accessable setting in the software

At least not on TTS with that particular cal, some of the tuning devices of the early year Delphi bikes (02-07)had cals that shut down the injectors completely on decel, I contribute this in part to the type of headpipe that was used back then with the Y in the rear pipe which would pull air up the left muffler and ignite the fuel in the pipe on decel.  Using a new cal is the "Fix" for this or there is software that can be used with the Power Vision to address this and I know Darren has used this before.  The whole decel injector on/off  adjustment has been beaten to death on the forums for years.  There are many things that go into the workings of this that we don't have access to with a TTS so you can change cals and potentially have a new set of issues.

[harleytq]

I'm not sure if I should post here for an update or start a new thread?
So I finally got around to checking for sumping and drained out around 11oz of oil. I wasn't sure if this might be normal for an S&S 124 so I called the S&S tech line, he said no its not normal it should be around 3-6oz.
This has the 31-6503 oil pump, looks like its integrated into the cam plate or something.
What do you guy's think on the S&S 124 is 11oz not good?
Funny I called S&S back for another question and this guy said 8-10oz is normal for the S&S twin cam engine.

[doubletrouble]

I would think that if sumping was the root cause of your complaint that you would have other issues as well , i.e. engine temp and poor acceleration ect.  Im thinking that if you explain what you are experiencing to the person who tuned your bike he will be able to make an adjustment to the decell cut , lower the rpm that its activated , simple fix and sometimes over looked.

[harleytq]

Never heard anything like that, is that something I can do with the TTS? I looked through all the tuning tables and dont see anything like that.

[C-Cat]

I had a previously good running 124 that started to sump. On tear down there was timken screws sucked into the oil  pump.

[1workinman]

do those motors have the S&S reed valve in the cam chest. if so I bet its sumpiing ,  that one way valve they put behind cam plate does not work, just not sure they are still using it,   when you run a one way on the heads wich is fine , but add a one way on the bottom end it will cause problems , it will sump the cam chest

Thats debatable. I put one in the Smack-A-Hoe TC124. S&S case with blue pump and plate. No sumping issues. Engine is a beast. This engine also has several external one way valves. Not only does this engine not sump, but it blows very little oil into the catch can. Even after a couple thousand miles. The problem with this stuff is there are too many that are merely regurgitating what others have written online.

Sir that is what I done to both my motors is the one way checks in all three lines . 2 off the heads and one off the filler neck . I silver soldered the fittings to do what I wanted and used bar on the ends and used a black plastic air line that I have used before . Works good for me . The line works well with the fittings Ray recommended on the filler neck .  Ed you do nice work I appreciate you posting them