How to tell if a compensator is bad

[gregfxs]

02 FLSTC started hearing some noise sounds like top end but from what I've read on here could be other things like compensator. Going to pull the cover but want to know what to look for. Adjusted the chain through the inspection hole one notch was to tight the other to loose, rather have loose saves the bearing. 37g cams ported heads carb DTT 95's bike runs good but been feeling a little vibration thought it was an intake leak but no. Now I need to search for the colpret 25000 on the clock use my shovel alot so the mileage is low for an 02. If I pull the clutch in at about 2000 an let it out quick I'll hear a clunk not sure if this is normal. Thanks in advance for anyone posting any replys.

[wolf_59]

My 06 Ultra started making a thunking sound at idle and at steady speeds sounded like top end but thought i would look at the compensator first and found the compensating nut loose enough that I turned it by hand, cleaned it up and applied a dap of red loctite and torqued it to 175 FT. lbs. sounds good now

[FLHRI_2004]

What he said.  Clean the nut and crank threads really good before you apply red Loctite.

[Azgunner]

Good question. I read a post that said the spring should not be loose in the cover. Sure enough mine was so I bought a new one & it was just as loose as the old one. Oh well.

I hear a light tapping or knocking noise that sounds like it is coming front the front of the primary. It's been like that for a lot of miles thru two different engine builds, before & since I switched out the cap/spring assy. with no change in sound or performance. I've also changed out the rotor & stator too, so I'm thinking my noise is normal.

[FSG]

.....  I read a post that said the spring should not be loose in the cover. Sure enough mine was so I bought a new one & it was just as loose as the old one. Oh well.

That is true the springs shouldn't be loose in the cover, but one must realise that the position of the springs in the cover is determined by how much the cover has been crimped at the edge (in 3 places) to hold them in. 
I've a Comp cover in my hand from an '04 with maybe 2000 Kilometres on it, P/N 40384-91, and the outer spring sits approximately .300" in from the end of the cover.  Once this cover is installed the distance will increase as the Spring Pack contacts and is pushed against the Sliding Cam.

Take a measurement of the outer spring in your cover and post.

[Dennis]

My 2010 CVO Ultra makes a chirping sound in the front primary when I get of the throttle at any speed. Is this a symptom of a bad compensator? only 17000 miles on the odometer.

[wnogood]

My 06 SEUC had a light knock at idle that had gradually gotten worse over 15k. I got the compensator out and sure enough, the nut was slightly loose, and the spring pack was loose in the compensator. New compensator and nut (that comes with white loctite already in it, and that stuff is not coming loose) and noise is gone.

[Azgunner]

Checked my old comp. cap/spring height & got .315-.320 around the outside edge.
As you show in your diagram FSG there is a convex taper to the spring of approx. .070 (at least that is what mine measures) towards the center which is where the sliding cam actually locates. The old assy. had 110k miles on it. Unfortunately I neglected to make some comparison measurements on the new cap/spring assy.

[gregfxs]

Spring measures from 300 to 315 all around. So maybe the noises I'm hearing are coming from the lifters? Seems like they all got loud at once, 38-42 oil pressure.

[PkgMan]

"My 2010 CVO Ultra makes a chirping sound in the front primary when I get of the throttle at any speed. Is this a symptom of a bad compensator? only 17000 miles on the odometer."

Very interested in the responses to this.  My buds 2009 Screaming Eadle RG is making this exact noise???

PkgMan

[FSG]

The springs in the 40384-91 Cover Spring Assembly measure, OD" 4.12", ID: 3", Thk: .094" , the uncompressed stack height of the 4 springs is 4.12"  .692"



EDIT:  correct the uncompressed stack height

[Velocity1]

FSG,
Not sure I follow on the uncompressed stack height of "4.12" based on your excellent diagram.  I'd be more interested to know what the total stack thickness of the (4) belville washers in the uncompressed state is.  I'm getting ready to build a custom compensator using 1 addditional belville spring to provide more comp. assembly preload.  My stock OEM loosened up awhile back and more recently my Drag Spec. replacement seems to have let go too as the old noise has returned.  A member on here, (his handle escapes me), told me that he and a mechanic buddy built one of these and had some excellent success. I hope to get into mine towards the end of the riding season here in the NE Mid-atlantic. Seems they removed the factory crimps, installed an extra donor belville and while under pressure in a press, remade the crimps. In his bike he claims it worked like a charm and no more noise. I figure it's worth a shot.
V1

[FSG]

Ha!,    my bad uncompressed stack height is  .692" NOT 4.12" which is the OD. 

Yes I remember someone posting he'd fitted an extra spring, not such a bad idea as the belville springs will lose some tension over time.  Note: adding an extra spring will reduce the amount of rotation of the comp before they are fully compressed.

[Velocity1]

FSG,
Do you or any others in this thread happen to have a "donor" spent comp. assy. or perhaps an extra belville washer laying around from say a 2000 - 2006 that they would part with?  I'd be happy to pay shipping to 21001.  This way, I keep my bike running while I'm building my new/improved compensator.  I have the one I'm upgrading on the press ready to go.  All I need is the extra belville.  Of course I'd share lessons learned and ultimate results! 
Thanks guys!
V1

[joe_lyons]

Measure the height of the spring pack and if is less than .650'' then it is bad.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk 2

[FSG]

V1, sorry no spares here.  Today I'll try to source a spring via my local nuts & bolt shop, or at least attempt to find out where I can get one in Oz.

[Velocity1]

V1, sorry no spares here.  Today I'll try to source a spring via my local nuts & bolt shop, or at least attempt to find out where I can get one in Oz.

Roger that Sir Garfield. I appreciate your help!
Thanks, V1

[PoorUB]

My 2010 CVO Ultra makes a chirping sound in the front primary when I get of the throttle at any speed. Is this a symptom of a bad compensator? only 17000 miles on the odometer.

Check the belt tension. Any time I have heard of this the belt was loose.

[lilchief]

Along these same lines, when a compensator is changed out, can the cap with the springs & belleville washers just be changed out or is it wise to replace the entire assembly? (sprocket, etc)

Lil' Chief

[Velocity1]

Along these same lines, when a compensator is changed out, can the cap with the springs & belleville washers just be changed out or is it wise to replace the entire assembly? (sprocket, etc)

Lil' Chief

The "spring cap" that contains the belville washers can be changed out without replacing any of the other parts that make up the assembly.  Your judgement based on how much wear on the slider cams, motor shaft extension and drive gear teeth is evident for example, should dictate whether  or not you replace the entire assembly.

[FSG]

I spent 4 hours this morning attempting to find out where I can get a spring in Oz.  No luck finding any on the shelf but a few spring manufactures will make them for me, a $100 setup fee plus $x per spring.  I'll pass for now.   

[FSG]

Well I got a little further yesterday afternoon, I stumbled upon a nuts & bolts shop that also had springs and a counter guy a good 10 years my senior that knew his business.  When he measured the ID of the Beville Spring I'd put on the counter he said "Son your not going to find one of them in Australia" followed by the ID is Imperial, 3", Australia is Metric and whatever we have will be 5mm too small or 5mm too large.  Pulling out a catalog he showed me the spring range and it skips from 72mm straight to 80mm.  Nothing near 3" which is 76.xmm.

V1 if you find them in the US I'd be interested in a couple.

[rbabos]

Well I got a little further yesterday afternoon, I stumbled upon a nuts & bolts shop that also had springs and a counter guy a good 10 years my senior that knew his business.  When he measured the ID of the Beville Spring I'd put on the counter he said "Son your not going to find one of them in Australia" followed by the ID is Imperial, 3", Australia is Metric and whatever we have will be 5mm too small or 5mm too large.  Pulling out a catalog he showed me the spring range and it skips from 72mm straight to 80mm.  Nothing near 3" which is 76.xmm.

V1 if you find them in the US I'd be interested in a couple.

Back when I was monkeying with that stock comp three or more years ago I exhausted all possibilities of finding this spring disc. Dimensionally it's HD specific, to keep the parts $ cash flow intact.
Ron

[rob71458]

FSG or V1, I have a used stock 07 comp. sitting in a drawer. I could remove a spring or two and send them to you.     

[FSG]

Rob, thanks for the offer.  Isn't the '07 comp spring pack part of the Rotor ?  I don't know what size the springs are in that comp, perhaps you could do a quick measure of a spring.  I have a spare comp spring pack here so I'm OK, but I;m sure V1 will also appreciate your offer.

rgd's

[rob71458]

Yes, it is part of the rotor, but I could remove the springs.

[FSG]

I know the after '07 spring packs have 5 springs of 3 different sizes but I don't know what size the '07 springs are, can you check, measure and post?  TIA

[rob71458]

Oh Man  Measure and post? Sounds like homework! I will see what I can do.

[FSG]

   thanks   

[rbabos]

I know the after '07 spring packs have 5 springs of 3 different sizes but I don't know what size the '07 springs are, can you check, measure and post?  TIA

Only the SE comp has 5 springs with two larger, two medium and one similar to the stocker.  Stocker has 4 all the same dia and thickness stacked in series inside the can. Once the 3 can dimples are flattened with plyers the springs will come out.
To confuse it even more the SE has undergone a thickness revision on the largest and medium dia discs with no stated revision to the 08A. Could be snuck in or the supplier screwed up.
Ron

[runamuck]

I saw that one poster cleaned comp bolt and put it back in and re-torqued  but I thought those bolts were good for only one use and then replace..is that not correct?..

[rbabos]

I saw that one poster cleaned comp bolt and put it back in and re-torqued  but I thought those bolts were good for only one use and then replace..is that not correct?..

Replacing is the best option.
Ron

[rob71458]

OK, I measured the "springs". OD is 4.110, ID is 2.995, Stacked in series unloaded is .680. Like Ron said, there are a total of four in the 07's. Hope this helps.

[Velocity1]

Well I got a little further yesterday afternoon, I stumbled upon a nuts & bolts shop that also had springs and a counter guy a good 10 years my senior that knew his business.  When he measured the ID of the Beville Spring I'd put on the counter he said "Son your not going to find one of them in Australia" followed by the ID is Imperial, 3", Australia is Metric and whatever we have will be 5mm too small or 5mm too large.  Pulling out a catalog he showed me the spring range and it skips from 72mm straight to 80mm.  Nothing near 3" which is 76.xmm.

V1 if you find them in the US I'd be interested in a couple.

FSG,
Thanks for your efforts. Interesting.  Once I locate a donor comp. I'll grab the one I need and you can have the rest.
Thanks.

[FSG]

V1, Rob has the springs out of his '07 available, I'll go you halves.      thanks Rob.

[Velocity1]

OK, I measured the "springs". OD is 4.110, ID is 2.995, Stacked in series unloaded is .680. Like Ron said, there are a total of four in the 07's. Hope this helps.

Rob,

I'm interested in what you've got?   I can gift you Paypal to save expenses.  PM me with the cost.  I'm located in Northern MD zip 21001.

thanks

[rob71458]

PM answered.

[xlfan]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

[rbabos]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

[Barrett]

I have this NIB.. It was for a 2001 Night Train, my Brother traded in his bike before install..

[xlfan]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

[PC_Hater]

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

xlfan, are you saying that the comp nut should be bottomed out?
And what should it bottom out on? On my bike it was hitting the end of the shaft extension.
what follows are the notes I made while using the equations at http://springipedia.com/belleville-washers-formulas.asp

Measurements -
distance from end of nut to rotor without outer cam = 85.7mm
distance from end of nut to rotor with full comp sprocket hand tight
   = 87.0mm
gap = 1.3mm

how strong are the belleville springs?
with 1.3mm shared over 4 springs 1 spring will deflect 0.325mm

from comp4.jpg h = 2.1mm (see FSGs comp nut drawings)

http://springipedia.com/belleville-washers-formulas.asp
gives:-

the deflection of 0.325mm is about 15% of h
the ratio of h to t is 2.1 / 2.39 = 0.878
the graph shows that with 15% deflection the 0.878 ratio curve is about 22% of the load at flat deflection

So, what is the load at flat deflection?
we need to know the Diameter Ratio = OD / ID = De/Di
   = 105/76 = 1.381579
we need to know Poissons ratio mu = use 0.3
we need to know the modulus of Elasticity E, use 30,000,000psi
smax = 2.1mm

= 5235N or 1185lb so 20% = 240lb : is that enough load?

[FSG]

The nut should never bottom out.

[Velocity1]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

How does the Fisher Concepts comp. work? What's behind the gear, springs, etc?

[1FSTRK]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

[PC_Hater]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

The compensating sprocket nut should just compress the spring pack.
By bottoming out we mean that as you tighten up the compensating sprocket nut it hits metal, and so you apply 160ftlb to an unwanted metal-to metal contact.
On my bike I discovered that the end of the compensating sprocket nut was hitting the end of the shaft extension that the actual sprocket rides on.

[rbabos]

Note the red marking. You want to compress the comp assembly but not bottom the end of the nut on the end of the crank. If it does the rotor and comp will be loose on the crank.
Ron

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[1FSTRK]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

The compensating sprocket nut should just compress the spring pack.
By bottoming out we mean that as you tighten up the compensating sprocket nut it hits metal, and so you apply 160ftlb to an unwanted metal-to metal contact.
On my bike I discovered that the end of the compensating sprocket nut was hitting the end of the shaft extension that the actual sprocket rides on.

That is what it is supposed to do. The end of the sleeve nut should not contact the splines on the crank shaft, but the outer shoulder should tighten solid against the shaft extension which squeezes the inner shim, rotor washer, rotor, and seal spacer against the outer timken bearing and sets the load on the bearing. That is where the pressure from the 160 ft lbs goes. The comp spring preload is predetermined by the thickness of the spring pack. If you do not have enough spring pressure you you need a new spring pack. If you have taken the tq load off your shaft extension and placed it on your spring pack some how your running with your rotor and outer timken loose.

[rbabos]

Does anyone know the correct stack height when correct torque are applied @ sprocket shaft?

Does anyone know how much pressure applied on a shop press would equal 160 ft/lbs of torque @ sprocket shaft?

Why? Discs will be flat long before that. The torque rating on the bolt is only to stretch it beyond any cyclic loads it will see in operation. This will only compress the discs about a nominal .065 from their free stack height. 60-80'lbs will likey flatten them in operation with cam rotation. The SE is more but the pack will be fully compressed way before the 140 torque is reached. If the preload is correct, then the discs are at normal pressure and haven't weakend.
Ron

I was thinking in lines of taking the guesswork out of the comp nut bottoming question. If belleville's have lost tension, you will in effect shorten the sprocket shaft available before nut bottoming. If the belleville's are weakend without bottoming, i would like to know how they act when overcompressed and the compensator needs more compressing. Is it enough left to compress on, or will it make noise?

How does the Fisher Concepts comp. work? What's behind the gear, springs, etc?

It's a harmonic damper, not a compensator.
Ron

[PC_Hater]

The nut should never bottom out.

What do you mean by bottom out?
What surface bottoms out on what?

The compensating sprocket nut should just compress the spring pack.
By bottoming out we mean that as you tighten up the compensating sprocket nut it hits metal, and so you apply 160ftlb to an unwanted metal-to metal contact.
On my bike I discovered that the end of the compensating sprocket nut was hitting the end of the shaft extension that the actual sprocket rides on.

That is what it is supposed to do. The end of the sleeve nut should not contact the splines on the crank shaft, but the outer shoulder should tighten solid against the shaft extension which squeezes the inner shim, rotor washer, rotor, and seal spacer against the outer timken bearing and sets the load on the bearing. That is where the pressure from the 160 ft lbs goes. The comp spring preload is predetermined by the thickness of the spring pack. If you do not have enough spring pressure you you need a new spring pack. If you have taken the tq load off your shaft extension and placed it on your spring pack some how your running with your rotor and outer timken loose.

Now I'm confused again...
Discuss the merits/demerits of what the nut should and should not bottom out on amongst yourselves please!

[Velocity1]

Well I got a little further yesterday afternoon, I stumbled upon a nuts & bolts shop that also had springs and a counter guy a good 10 years my senior that knew his business.  When he measured the ID of the Beville Spring I'd put on the counter he said "Son your not going to find one of them in Australia" followed by the ID is Imperial, 3", Australia is Metric and whatever we have will be 5mm too small or 5mm too large.  Pulling out a catalog he showed me the spring range and it skips from 72mm straight to 80mm.  Nothing near 3" which is 76.xmm.

V1 if you find them in the US I'd be interested in a couple.

FSG,
I've got one now.  Haven't fooled with it as it's laying on my press next to the "suspect one." Interestingly there's subtle dimensional differences between the 2. More the outside case heights.  I'll have a spring or 2 for ya as soon as I take it apart and determine which one has lost most of its conical form and hasn't flattened out.  I'll throw them on the surface plate and measure. When I do I'll get back to you.
Waiting here in the Mid Atlantic to see if we're ground zero for hurricane Sandy.
V1

[Velocity1]

I have this NIB.. It was for a 2001 Night Train, my Brother traded in his bike before install..

I may have previously quoted the wrong post by accident. 

What is the operating principle or guts of the Fisher Concepts comp? Or is it just one of there inertial balancer devices attached to a sprocket? Anybody use one?  Results?  I too have a NIB BDL 24T comp. assy.  Reluctant to install it after what I read here about them.  That's why I'm going to build-up an OEM type comp with the extra spring and try that first.

Through all this reading and looking at the excellent diagramming, (FSG), and math equations, (PC_Hater), of the OEM comp. assy. function by design, it's quite aparent that ultimate performance of the compensator is based on many variables. At the point of final torque when installed, it is what it is whether good or bad. Granted by design it was only intended to support stock power input, however the sum of its parts are fairly robust. It seems pretty obvious the spring pack and final torque are the culprit.  BTW I've never torqued my comp. nut to more than 160 lb./ft. per my FSM. I noticed some of you here are north of this number to the tune of 175 lb./ft. if memory serves me?

[Spudislandbiker]

That is what it is supposed to do. The end of the sleeve nut should not contact the splines on the crank shaft, but the outer shoulder should tighten solid against the shaft extension which squeezes the inner shim, rotor washer, rotor, and seal spacer against the outer timken bearing and sets the load on the bearing. That is where the pressure from the 160 ft lbs goes. The comp spring preload is predetermined by the thickness of the spring pack. If you do not have enough spring pressure you you need a new spring pack. If you have taken the tq load off your shaft extension and placed it on your spring pack some how your running with your rotor and outer timken loose.
[/quote]

Very Helpful explanation.... I there anyway of checking whether spring(s) have a preload when torqued? Can you get something into where the spring is to see if it has pressure on it? Or is it all math?

[1FSTRK]

You can tighten the sprocket shaft nut until it contacts the outside of the spring pack. Make sure the to rotate the comp so the ramps are at the bottom with no load.At this point you should be able to turn the spring pack by hand and feel some drag. Now mark the nut on the outside face at 12:00. Tighten while counting the turns and with the number of turns and the threads per inch you can calculate the preload compression height. If you want to know preload lbs you will need some type of spring tester but you will now know what compression height to check pressure at.

[Velocity1]

Through all this reading and looking at the excellent diagramming, (FSG), and math equations, (PC_Hater), of the OEM comp. assy. function by design, it's quite aparent that ultimate performance of the compensator is based on many variables. At the point of final torque when installed, it is what it is whether good or bad. Granted by design it was only intended to support stock power input, however the sum of its parts are fairly robust. It seems pretty obvious the spring pack and final torque are the culprit.   BTW I've never torqued my comp. nut to more than 160 lb./ft. per my FSM. I noticed some of you here are north of this number to the tune of 175 lb./ft. if memory serves me?

Over charging the spring pack with an additional bellville washer seems like the logical minimum providing additional resistance for the higher power output to overcome in a high performance application. I may use this storm and down time as motivation to build the experimental modified OEM comp. and install it.

[arnold_schachat]

I am planning to experiment with the Belleville Spring assembly on the Rotor/Spring Cover part# 40356-07. Does anyone know the outer diameter (OD), inner diameter (ID), material thickness, overall height and spring material of the 4 Belleville spring washers installed in 40356-07?

[arnold_schachat]

2008 - FLSTC. I removed the outer primary and compensator assembly (40296-06). I removed all the 4 Belleville washers from the Rotor/Spring Cover (40356-07).

The following dimensions of the Belleville spring washers were recorded:
OD=104.47mm
ID=76mm
Thickness=2.46mm
Height=4.39mm

Answered my own question-maybe it will be of help if you are wanting to restore collapsed/broken or weak Belleville spring washers in your Rotor/Spring Cover (40356-07).

[Smarty]

I have been running with an extra medium bellevue washer placed the same direction as the outside medium bellevue washer. Been running this way for 2 fears. The wear pattern on the cams now are from the center to about half way up the cam lobe. No noise what so ever with the tensioner adjusted correctly. Quietest compensator I've had since my 04 Ultra.