HarleyTechTalk

While getting prepped to check pushrod adjustment discovered motor has solids and adjustment is zero las but spin with thumb and fingertips. Have put 150 miles on this bike now after fixing the bananas and flushing brake lines and cleaning calipers etc.
In keeping with not fixing what is not broken I will run these. For those of u who like the solids other than checking at each oil change should I wish to go back to hydraulics it looks like aftermarket part is Japanese.

How did you determine they were solids?

Quote from: flhs90 on August 08, 2022, 09:38:13 AMWhile getting prepped to check pushrod adjustment discovered motor has solids and adjustment is zero las but spin with thumb and fingertips. Have put 150 miles on this bike now after fixing the bananas and flushing brake lines and cleaning calipers etc.
In keeping with not fixing what is not broken I will run these. For those of u who like the solids other than checking at each oil change should I wish to go back to hydraulics it looks like aftermarket part is Japanese.

If you decide to go back to hydraulic lifters, unless you're stuck on OEM style, Jim's USA and S&S Cycle makes some performance hydraulics that will work in your Shovel.  $$$$

If everything else in the valve train is in good working order, the lash on solids never changes. I always set cold and never had a problem. I'd check them once a year.   

Solids are not a real issue with a Shovelhead, as the cylinders are iron and don't grow like aluminum cylinders do. Ironheads have always used solid tappets. They might be a little bit noisier at temperature than hydraulics, but no big deal.

-JW

What Hoss said. 

What did you do to determine they were at 0 lash, are cheap Japanese aftermarket, and at what temp did you discover the 0 lash.  Properly set solids should spin with very slight resistance (no detectable side shake) when at bottom of the lift (valve closed) cold.

Had put some 150 fun miles after all the prep. Rode it by to thank local indy for the S and S jets. He said,  "Wait a minute don't turn it off I hear something." He said, " rear rocker noise."
Said ,..."It could be solids"
I rode it home pulled pushrod covers. Rear exhaust gad some side to side slop. Used magnet there is a spring in the tappet hole.
With pushrod at lowest position following service manual I take all slack out, up and down as  well as
 side to side play, but able to spin with thumb and fingers, erring on loose is better.

Gaskets are coming for the gearcase cover and the oil pump, my 2 major leaks, then can ride it some more, fun all the way.

Quote from: Hossamania on August 08, 2022, 12:28:21 PMHow did you determine they were solids?

Hoss,  rode it home after local indy heard the noise and put it back on the lift for r and r even though it seemed to run just fine.

Quote from: kd on August 08, 2022, 06:46:32 PMWhat Hoss said. 

What did you do to determine they were at 0 lash, are cheap Japanese aftermarket, and at what temp did you discover the 0 lash.  Properly set solids should spin with very slight resistance (no detectable side shake) when at bottom of the lift (valve closed) cold.

KD, the reference to made in Japan lifters was researching if I switched back to hydraulic as some were available on the bay. I put bike back on lift and waited a day or 2 to check adjustment cold, found rear exhaust loose. After removing pushrod  pulled solid and spring below it;  photos of lifter added.

Quote from: flhs90 on August 08, 2022, 08:03:38 PMHad put some 150 fun miles after all the prep. Rode it by to thank local indy for the S and S jets. He said,  "Wait a minute don't turn it off I hear something." He said, " rear rocker noise."
Said ,..."It could be solids"
I rode it home pulled pushrod covers. Rear exhaust gad some side to side slop. Used magnet there is a spring in the tappet hole.
With pushrod at lowest position following service manual I take all slack out, up and down as  well as
 side to side play, but able to spin with thumb and fingers, erring on loose is better.

Those are for sure solids.     

Quote from: flhs90 on August 08, 2022, 08:48:40 PM

Quote from: kd on August 08, 2022, 06:46:32 PMWhat Hoss said. 

What did you do to determine they were at 0 lash, are cheap Japanese aftermarket, and at what temp did you discover the 0 lash.  Properly set solids should spin with very slight resistance (no detectable side shake) when at bottom of the lift (valve closed) cold.

KD, the reference to made in Japan lifters was researching if I switched back to hydraulic as some were available on the bay. I put bike back on lift and waited a day or 2 to check adjustment cold, found rear exhaust loose. After removing pushrod  pulled solid and spring below it;  photos of lifter added.

 

Quote from: Deye76 on August 08, 2022, 04:23:01 PMIf everything else in the valve train is in good working order, the lash on solids never changes. I always set cold and never had a problem. I'd check them once a year.   

Sounds great to me Deye76. Working from the point of reference if it ain't broken or needing replaced, leave it alone. At least4 now.

Dave, the extra pics and info is helpful.  It appears to me you have S&S solids (or a similar copy).  As the JW and others stated, solids work well in shovels and the cast cylinder expansion rate (cylider hight growth) is a big part of it.  The only difference between ironhead sporty and shovels are the aluminum heads on the shovel.  They expand a little more than the ironheads.  The consequence is a little loosening of the adjustment tolerance on the shovels when up to temp.  Being OCD on the adjustment resolves that.  Snug fit but not too tight the way that you describe doing yours is correct.  Too tight will make a kicker hard to start in cold weather because they will get tighter and bleed off compression when starting.

FWIW I have never run hydraulics in my shovel because the solids work so well and there is no worries about a future crippling failure.  I also love the sound of a well set group of solids working together. Others may disagree but not many. 

Quote from: kd on August 09, 2022, 06:53:50 AMDave, the extra pics and info is helpful.  It appears to me you have S&S solids (or a similar copy).  As the JW and others stated, solids work well in shovels and the cast cylinder expansion rate (cylider hight growth) is a big part of it.  The only difference between ironhead sporty and shovels are the aluminum heads on the shovel.  They expand a little more than the ironheads.  The consequence is a little loosening of the adjustment tolerance on the shovels when up to temp.  Being OCD on the adjustment resolves that.  Snug fit but not too tight the way that you describe doing yours is correct.  Too tight will make a kicker hard to start in cold weather because they will get tighter and bleed off compression when starting.

FWIW I have never run hydraulics in my shovel because the solids work so well and there is no worries about a future crippling failure.  I also love the sound of a well set group of solids working together. Others may disagree but not many. 

a good summary.my understanding is you can still ride with a failed hydro lifter ?

David, your link isn't working, at least for me.  I wouldn't advise anyone to continue to ride with a collapsed lifter pounding those little needle bearing rollers and lofting off the cam lobe landing hard. Maybe that's just me. 

Quote from: kd on August 09, 2022, 02:38:55 PMDavid, your link isn't working, at least for me.  I wouldn't advise anyone to continue to ride with a collapsed lifter pounding those little needle bearing rollers and lofting off the cam lobe landing hard. Maybe that's just me. 

thanks. just asking

KD is correct, you will trash the needle bearing in the wheel & they'll come spitting out inside the cam chest and go who knows where else. Don't ask me how I know this...

Also, a collapsed tappet will have far too much lash and can cause the pushrod to pop out of the socket in the rocker arm, and bend the pushrod. Don't ask how I know this...

-JW

They look like the old original Sifton solids. I ran them for years and never had an issue with them in my Pans and Shovels. I like Velva touch for hydro's. Never had an issue with them either. I have a set of Jims hydro's in my 62 Pan and it's dead quiet as far as valvetrain noise. 

Yes, Siftons.  I misspoke cuz it's been forever I guess. 

While servicing the gearcase oil leak and oil pump leak found a Sifton circa 1980-81 112 Cobra cam. Used a Hames w red silicone bead and some white lithium grease on that and the oil pump gaskets also James. They seem to be doing the job. Upon startup it took some effort to get oil pump to take prime, believe it or not the feed line was air locked as well. Also pulled check valve and tappet screen to let air and gravity help. Oil light is off, pushrods adjusted. Thanks all.

Sifton Cobra? Wow. Probably the best all around hot rod street cam ever made.

-JW

Quote from: kd on August 09, 2022, 06:53:50 AMDave, the extra pics and info is helpful.  It appears to me you have S&S solids (or a similar copy).  As the JW and others stated, solids work well in shovels and the cast cylinder expansion rate (cylider hight growth) is a big part of it.  The only difference between ironhead sporty and shovels are the aluminum heads on the shovel.  They expand a little more than the ironheads.  The consequence is a little loosening of the adjustment tolerance on the shovels when up to temp.  Being OCD on the adjustment resolves that.  Snug fit but not too tight the way that you describe doing yours is correct.  Too tight will make a kicker hard to start in cold weather because they will get tighter and bleed off compression when starting.

FWIW I have never run hydraulics in my shovel because the solids work so well and there is no worries about a future crippling failure.  I also love the sound of a well set group of solids working together. Others may disagree but not many. 

 
KD, JW, Ohio, Hoss and Deye,
Took my time going over the adjustments. For sure it is part of my getting acquainted with how the bike is set up. If I'm not mistaken the Sifton Cobra 112 cam is for solids, if anyone knows otherwise I would like 2 hear back. I do not mind the extra noise over hydraulics and am very happy doing what I can to make it reliable again.

Quote from: flhs90 on August 14, 2022, 07:29:02 AM

Quote from: kd on August 09, 2022, 06:53:50 AMDave, the extra pics and info is helpful.  It appears to me you have S&S solids (or a similar copy).  As the JW and others stated, solids work well in shovels and the cast cylinder expansion rate (cylider hight growth) is a big part of it.  The only difference between ironhead sporty and shovels are the aluminum heads on the shovel.  They expand a little more than the ironheads.  The consequence is a little loosening of the adjustment tolerance on the shovels when up to temp.  Being OCD on the adjustment resolves that.  Snug fit but not too tight the way that you describe doing yours is correct.  Too tight will make a kicker hard to start in cold weather because they will get tighter and bleed off compression when starting.

FWIW I have never run hydraulics in my shovel because the solids work so well and there is no worries about a future crippling failure.  I also love the sound of a well set group of solids working together. Others may disagree but not many. 

 
KD and Deye,
Took my time going over the adjustments. For sure it is part of my getting acquainted with how the bike is set up. If I'm not mistaken the Sifton Cobra 112 is for solids, if anyone knows otherwise I would like 2 hear back. I do not mind the extra noise over hydraulics and am very happy doing what I can to make it reliable again.

FWIW:
I ran my 65 pan with Sifton 440 cam and spring loaded solid conversion insert cups for many years with no problems.
 

Quote from: HogMike on August 14, 2022, 07:33:02 AM

Quote from: flhs90 on August 14, 2022, 07:29:02 AM

Quote from: kd on August 09, 2022, 06:53:50 AMDave, the extra pics and info is helpful.  It appears to me you have S&S solids (or a similar copy).  As the JW and others stated, solids work well in shovels and the cast cylinder expansion rate (cylider hight growth) is a big part of it.  The only difference between ironhead sporty and shovels are the aluminum heads on the shovel.  They expand a little more than the ironheads.  The consequence is a little loosening of the adjustment tolerance on the shovels when up to temp.  Being OCD on the adjustment resolves that.  Snug fit but not too tight the way that you describe doing yours is correct.  Too tight will make a kicker hard to start in cold weather because they will get tighter and bleed off compression when starting.

FWIW I have never run hydraulics in my shovel because the solids work so well and there is no worries about a future crippling failure.  I also love the sound of a well set group of solids working together. Others may disagree but not many. 

 
KD and Deye,
Took my time going over the adjustments. For sure it is part of my getting acquainted with how the bike is set up. If I'm not mistaken the Sifton Cobra 112 is for solids, if anyone knows otherwise I would like 2 hear back. I do not mind the extra noise over hydraulics and am very happy doing what I can to make it reliable again.

FWIW:
I ran my 65 pan with Sifton 440 cam and spring loaded solid conversion insert cups for many years with no problems.
 

I had a similar experience with a Sifton 468 and their solids.