I have a 07 ultra with 24,000 on the clock. No problems as of yet with the compensator. I read on a previous post where the owner of a 07 is running 8 oz extra in the primary for extra lubing of the comp. Any reason not to do this? Can any harm happen by doing this? Oil is cheap!
I think that you may have "clutch drag" and then shifting issues.
Quote from: koko3052 on May 18, 2019, 11:32:40 AM
I think that you may have "clutch drag" and then shifting issues.
I've read that too, but I have no experience. You could give it a try and have a turkey baster handy.
I've found that if you overfill the primary shifting becomes difficult and you end up with clutch drag. Best to stop filling when the fluid touches the clutch plates. I go by visual versus ounces. when the fluid touches the bottom of the clutch plate, I stop filling.
Quote from: Boe Cole on May 18, 2019, 06:10:56 PM
I've found that if you overfill the primary shifting becomes difficult and you end up with clutch drag. Best to stop filling when the fluid touches the clutch plates. I go by visual versus ounces. when the fluid touches the bottom of the clutch plate, I stop filling.
:agree:
If the fluid is any higher than the edge of the plates, the oil tends to get between the plates and cause sticking through surface tension.
When I first started riding bikes I always liked to 'improve' on the manufacturers instructions. After more than 50 years in the saddle (I'm 70) I've learned the manufacturer puts a great deal of research into their recommendations. I'm sure improvements can be made, but when the manufacturers says to use 'this much' oil, it's usually for a good reason.
PC
Quote from: Boe Cole on May 18, 2019, 06:10:56 PM
I've found that if you overfill the primary shifting becomes difficult and you end up with clutch drag. Best to stop filling when the fluid touches the clutch plates. I go by visual versus ounces. when the fluid touches the bottom of the clutch plate, I stop filling.
:up: Yep, agree.
Last summer my 09 SG with 89K and original compensator had a mainshaft seal that was leaking motor oil into primary filling the primary...when I removed the derby cover oil would come out...Finding neutral at a dead stop was nearly impossible but much easier while rolling to a stop and shifted hard at times...from my experience I'd go with recommended level...Seal was replaced over the winter and now back to normal
I'm the guy with the 2007 Ultra classic. Yes I over filled the primary 8 oz. I have no clutch drag at all. This bike has been a daily runner due to my truck in the shop. I did install the Twin Power Manuel primary chain adjuster Thanks California Phil and being an Amsoil dealer I'm using their Torque Drive ATF
I do not do this with my 124 RKC which has a rivera pro clutch I actually have to run it lower due to drag. When I get back to NJ going to set up that Mueller clutch hardware.
I have logged over 1000 miles on the 2007 Ultra. I have experienced no "clutch" dragging, no leakage, no extra heat , no slippage.
Just smooth reliable shifts and the piece of mind that the compensater is bathed in oil sitting level when stopped and most likely seeing oil at highway speeds.
This worked out well for me.......
MIKE
Torque Drive ATF...is the only thing that will work with my clutch! :up:
Quote from: tbird on May 18, 2019, 10:58:47 AM
I have a 07 ultra with 24,000 on the clock. No problems as of yet with the compensator. I read on a previous post where the owner of a 07 is running 8 oz extra in the primary for extra lubing of the comp. Any reason not to do this? Can any harm happen by doing this? Oil is cheap!
Not sure why anyone would bother trying to save the 07 comp. It's pretty useless as far as function goes, not to mention that hideous bang on startups.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on May 20, 2019, 07:57:03 AM
Quote from: tbird on May 18, 2019, 10:58:47 AM
I have a 07 ultra with 24,000 on the clock. No problems as of yet with the compensator. I read on a previous post where the owner of a 07 is running 8 oz extra in the primary for extra lubing of the comp. Any reason not to do this? Can any harm happen by doing this? Oil is cheap!
Not sure why anyone would bother trying to save the 07 comp. It's pretty useless as far as function goes, not to mention that hideous bang on startups.
Ron
Maybe some want to save money and try to make a go of what they have.
If this works for me maybe give it a try bet it works for you too.
Quote from: MIKEL on May 20, 2019, 09:35:57 AM
Quote from: rbabos on May 20, 2019, 07:57:03 AM
Quote from: tbird on May 18, 2019, 10:58:47 AM
I have a 07 ultra with 24,000 on the clock. No problems as of yet with the compensator. I read on a previous post where the owner of a 07 is running 8 oz extra in the primary for extra lubing of the comp. Any reason not to do this? Can any harm happen by doing this? Oil is cheap!
Not sure why anyone would bother trying to save the 07 comp. It's pretty useless as far as function goes, not to mention that hideous bang on startups.
Ron
Maybe some want to save money and try to make a go of what they have.
If this works for me maybe give it a try bet it works for you too.
Didn't work for me. I couldn't rip that pos off fast enough for no other reason to get rid of the 5th gear clatter in my 07 softail. The SE version solved that but as for oil, there's a whole long story to that. Old history now. Saving money and owning a Harley can't be used in the same sentence. :hyst:
Ron
The lube is primarily for the chain . The clutch should be barely in the oil .
Quote from: Ironheadmike on May 21, 2019, 08:02:41 AM
The lube is primarily for the chain . The clutch should be barely in the oil .
It`s also for the compensator on the 6 speed bikes...
OK I know this is an old thread, but I did a search and this was the most relevant. So here goes.
I put a Late Evo/TC clutch in my '92 softail. Not knowing any different, I dumped a full quart of Type F ATF in the primary. At first, everything was great, shift like butter, snick into gear from neutral no noise, and easily find neutral whether moving or not. But things started going down hill, going into gear from neutral would make a loud crunch and the bike would shake, shifting would "grind a little" between gears, and forget neutral at a dead stop. A couple weeks ago, noticed it wanted to creep in gear at a stop. OK, classic symptoms of dragging clutch, but why?
I drained the primary oil, looked quite normal. I readjusted the clutch at both the release disk and the cable. The other thing on my mind, was there perhaps too much oil in it? I surfed a bit, and found that in '98 and later softails, the primary only takes ~26oz of fluid. And I had put 32oz in. OK,that HAS to be the problem. Right?
Not! When I refilled the oil, I used a flashlight and very, very carefully only filled it until I could see the oil level right at the edge of the clutch shell. Which was about 23oz. After a little test ride, it didn't really seem to function much differently. Same grind into gear, same difficultly into neutral, same clunkyness between shifts. WTH??? I put maybe 100 or more miles on it to see if time/miles would improve the clutch drag. Nope.
When I installed the late model clutch, I put in new Alta "red" friction disks and stock HD steel plates. So even though I overfilled the primary fluid, do you think that with the clutch plates getting soaked in oil, they are now saturated and ruined?
-JW
They could be saturated, but I doubt ruined. I have pulled them out and used brake clean on them. Let them dry overnight and try again.
How many miles, or how long before you saw the grabby clutch issue? I ask because when I have done that in the past, usually within 50 to 75 or so miles it started acting up.
Yeah, for me maybe closer to 100 and change. This was a few months ago, what with the Covid and all have not been putting the miles on it for commute to work, and I ain't much of a "joy rider" anymore. I'll pull the primary and try cleaning the plates, thanks.
-JW
JW, was there more than normal play that developed at the lever before you adjusted it?
Wonder if the throw out bearing disintegrated.
Years ago I snagged this diagram from HTT, use it whenever I fill the primary.
Primary Fluid Level.jpg
Quote from: cheech on June 22, 2020, 08:41:58 PM
JW, was there more than normal play that developed at the lever before you adjusted it?
Wonder if the throw out bearing disintegrated.
No, the lever felt fine. It just starting showing the obvious signs of clutch drag. So for sure I over filled it, but didn't expect it to keep dragging after I put the right level in.
Chaos, yes that is the correct way to fill no doubt. I didn't think about this later style clutch taking more space up in the primary, and requiring less oil. Just threw a quart in like I've been doing on the early type. Whoops! That picture on the left is interesting, but not accurate for my situation. You can't hardly see between the clutch and primary opening, it's really close, purt near impossible to see where the oil level is on the basket.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on June 23, 2020, 07:52:56 AM
Quote from: cheech on June 22, 2020, 08:41:58 PM
JW, was there more than normal play that developed at the lever before you adjusted it?
Wonder if the throw out bearing disintegrated.
No, the lever felt fine. It just starting showing the obvious signs of clutch drag. So for sure I over filled it, but didn't expect it to keep dragging after I put the right level in.
Chaos, yes that is the correct way to fill no doubt. I didn't think about this later style clutch taking more space up in the primary, and requiring less oil. Just threw a quart in like I've been doing on the early type. Whoops! That picture on the left is interesting, but not accurate for my situation. You can't hardly see between the clutch and primary opening, it's really close, purt near impossible to see where the oil level is on the basket.
-JW
I make up a dipstick from a piece of thin cardboard.
Mark the outside diameter of the clutch basket on it, referenced against the clutch basket and slip it into the gap as you fill.
2013 Road Glide Custom. I was changing fluids prior to a long, hot road trip. Figured I would overfill primary to cover the hot riding conditions. Used Red Line. After about 200 miles, neutral was very hard to get, and had significant clutch creep out of nowhere. Clutch cable had been adjusted prior to trip. So, my lesson was that over filling the primary, even by 4-5 ounces, can screw up your bike.
:up: too much in the primary turns the clutch into a viscous coupling
I have a 2007 se ultra and have run 48 oz of harley primary fluid in it since day 1 on my fluid changes.
No problem finding neutral and no clutch drag. Maybe you guys using fluid other the the hd stuff is causing your problems.
To each his own. But I'm curious as to where you came up with the 48 oz., I had a 2007 Ultra and I don't remember the SM saying to put in near that much fluid back when I used to measure.
Quote from: chico on June 30, 2020, 12:44:43 PM
I have a 2007 se ultra and have run 48 oz of harley primary fluid in it since day 1 on my fluid changes.
No problem finding neutral and no clutch drag. Maybe you guys using fluid other the the hd stuff is causing your problems.
48 oz is way too much for a service change. Manual calls for 38oz but a quart will work fine.
I am absolutely amazed that you are not having a dragging clutch issue with 48 oz's. Are you sure on that measure?
Quote from: kd on June 30, 2020, 06:57:01 PM
I am absolutely amazed that you are not having a dragging clutch issue with 48 oz's. Are you sure on that measure?
I have always followed the manual on how much fluid in the primary. That is until I saw the picture in Post #19. On my 07 Roadglide the level was as shown following the manual, but when I got my '13 RoadKing to get it up to the clutch basket as shown in that diagram it takes 48 ozs. I have done this since new.
2013 RKC 44,300 miles original compensator. Easy into neutral and no dragging I am aware of.
Quote from: kd on June 30, 2020, 06:57:01 PM
I am absolutely amazed that you are not having a dragging clutch issue with 48 oz's. Are you sure on that measure?
Positive on that amount , 1 full and another 1/2 qt. Have to stand bike up, straight to fill it. Bike has 75000 miles, original clutch, first new version of the se comp. 117 hp 126tq. My feeling is the comp needs the extra fluid to lube it properly. A little extra fluid does good, but Harley can save lots of money by convincing everybody that 1 qt is all that's needed. I used that amount because that's what my 94 bagger fill was and never had clutch issues with that bike either.
Quote from: Ridgerunner on July 01, 2020, 05:49:24 AM
I have always followed the manual on how much fluid in the primary. That is until I saw the picture in Post #19. On my 07 Roadglide the level was as shown following the manual, but when I got my '13 RoadKing to get it up to the clutch basket as shown in that diagram it takes 48 ozs. I have done this since new.
2013 RKC 44,300 miles original compensator. Easy into neutral and no dragging I am aware of.
Your 13 has a different comp vs the 07 for one.
Everyone overfilling and having no issues. :idunno: That's good I guess.
Reason for the post though is everyone referring to that level pic. I've seen it in the SM, but only pertaining to the 06 down.
I have a 07 Softail SM, 09 Touring SM, 09 Dyna SM, and a 15 Touring SM opened up.
I can't find that level reference figure in any of them. :nix:
So why are people referring to that image when it may not be pertinent to their year bike?
You may not see that pair of pics but the first one is there and you can clearly see the oil level up to the rim of the basket as described in the 2nd pic. There is also a bold print warning about over filling the primary. :nix:
I don't feel as though I overfill my Roadking as the level is exactly as shown in that diagram.
When I drop the old fluid I let it drain overnight and fill the next day. Maybe the extended drain is closer to a dry fill rather than a wet fill. I don't know, but running it lower than shown doesn't seem like a good option to me since I don't have any symptoms mentioned.
When I installed my Bandit clutch it said to use 14 oz of primary fluid.
That sure seemed like a small amount, but I figured I might as well try it.
I have a solid engine sprocket so I wasn't worried about lubing a compensator & a Baker Grudgebox. I put in 14oz of Spectro primary oil & it shifts better than any other Harley I have ever ridden. I could reach down & put it into neutral at a red light with two fingers if I wanted to.
~John
So, taking the clutch pack out and washing the parts with solvent did indeed help. A lot. It still has more of a 'klunk' going from neutral to 1st than my TC Road Glide, which is odd to me. But better than before, and the shifting is back to what I consider normal.
I put 24oz of fluid in the primary, it just barely touches the clutch basket. It is really hard to see down in there, have to use a flashlight to see the fluid level. Not clear to me how you could make some sort of dipstick, there is essentially no room between the clutch and outer primary.
clutch.jpg
-JW
I sorta get a kick out of the primary lube level. some guys take the service manual as a bible, it is says 38 ounces, then put in 38, no consideration for what or why. Me? I dump a quart in it and run it. If there is enough lube for the ring gear and chain to sling it around it is probably enough.
Quote from: JW113 on July 05, 2020, 11:35:15 AM
So, taking the clutch pack out and washing the parts with solvent did indeed help. A lot. It still has more of a 'klunk' going from neutral to 1st than my TC Road Glide, which is odd to me. But better than before, and the shifting is back to what I consider normal.
I put 24oz of fluid in the primary, it just barely touches the clutch basket. It is really hard to see down in there, have to use a flashlight to see the fluid level. Not clear to me how you could make some sort of dipstick, there is essentially no room between the clutch and outer primary.
[attach=0,msg1353661]
-JW
Go back and have a look at reply 21
get a strip of cardboard similar in shape to a hacksaw blade
mark the outside diameter of clutch plates on it, or centre of clutch to outside of clutch plates. and check oil level as it nears fill level by referencing against clutch pack