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Total scavenge oil change

Started by xlfan, April 13, 2019, 05:08:08 AM

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0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

xlfan

Would it cause any harm to the return side of the oil pump, to run an extra quart of oil out the oil filter mount base without the oil filter?

Dmerch

You can pull the sump plug and drain about 15 or 16 ozs from there. Between that and the oil pan, should be about all you can get.

rigidthumper

On a Twin Cam, it wastes oil- the feed side goes from the tank, to the pump, to the filter, then to the motor.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

kd

It always bothered me that I was leaving about a quart (or 25%) of the old used oil in the system when I changed the oil normally.  I saw it as contaminating the new oil and reducing the value.  Also, the dollars spent and care taken on a built engine wasn't getting the full protection of the oil change that was intended.  I read about the Rogue total oil change kit and a friend said after he started using one, at the 5000 mile oil change, his oil still looked like honey, as apposed to the dark black fluid he used to drain out.  I figured if removing that last 25% made that much difference I would try it.  I found the same and now I have the kit.  It takes a couple of minutes more to run out that last bit of oil, but as you do it you are replacing it with clean oil which actually saves time.  You end up getting a 100% oil exchange (sump . pan and lines, minus cling) every time.


https://roguechopper.com/
KD

koko3052

After watching Rogues vid I have to disagree. As the twinky  feeds oil from tank to pump to filter to engine & the vid shows the engine running & the oil running out, then how is the engine getting oil? It has to be getting some oil from the filter adapter or you are starving your engine. Now if it is doing that, then used oil is still getting mixed with the fresh. As rigidthumper says....it just wastes oil!
If you are wasting a quart every change then why not just change your oil a quarter of the mileage sooner? That will come out to the same cost. :potstir:

Ironheadmike

About 20 or so years ago I bought a scavenge . I was made of plastic and a clear hose . I paid five bucks for it . Last fall I put it in the garbage can to drain and I forgot about it . Now I  only can find one for sixty bucks , that's crazy .

Paniolo

About 30 years ago in Laughlin I watched a parking lot mechanic change oil in an EVO. He put a large cut plastic bottle over the oil filter housing and cranked the engine. Out came the used oil. He cleaned up the spillage with brake cleaner and that was it.
Life can only be lived in the present moment.

Hilly13

Quote from: koko3052 on April 13, 2019, 09:02:38 AM
After watching Rogues vid I have to disagree. As the twinky  feeds oil from tank to pump to filter to engine & the vid shows the engine running & the oil running out, then how is the engine getting oil? It has to be getting some oil from the filter adapter or you are starving your engine. Now if it is doing that, then used oil is still getting mixed with the fresh. As rigidthumper says....it just wastes oil!
If you are wasting a quart every change then why not just change your oil a quarter of the mileage sooner? That will come out to the same cost. :potstir:
You put fresh oil in the tank and start the engine, on the twin cam the oil you see exiting the hose is what would normally be returning to tank, when it runs clear you shut the engine off, works like they say, Evo was different.
I do it, most dont, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I got 99% of the old oil out.
Just because its said don't make it so

kd

Quote from: Hilly13 on April 13, 2019, 01:00:00 PM
Quote from: koko3052 on April 13, 2019, 09:02:38 AM
After watching Rogues vid I have to disagree. As the twinky  feeds oil from tank to pump to filter to engine & the vid shows the engine running & the oil running out, then how is the engine getting oil? It has to be getting some oil from the filter adapter or you are starving your engine. Now if it is doing that, then used oil is still getting mixed with the fresh. As rigidthumper says....it just wastes oil!
If you are wasting a quart every change then why not just change your oil a quarter of the mileage sooner? That will come out to the same cost. :potstir:
You put fresh oil in the tank and start the engine, on the twin cam the oil you see exiting the hose is what would normally be returning to tank, when it runs clear you shut the engine off, works like they say, Evo was different.
I do it, most dont, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I got 99% of the old oil out.



The system comes with a puck that screws on in place of the oil filter you have removed.  It channels the oil internally when you run the engine later in the process.  A fitting (in the kit) with a hose barb on one end  is screwed into the pipe plug hole next to the drain plug.  A clear hose is slipped one end onto the barb fitting and the other end is placed in a fresh quart of oil.  (the drain plug and dip stick are out)  You start the engine and the oil is instantly drawn into the engine from the fresh quart and the old oil it is replacing drains from the open drain plug hole.  When the quart is empty, you stick the hose into another quart, run it down 1/2 way and shut the engine off.  Allow the pan to drain off before reinserting the drain plug then fill to the mark on the dip stick.  If you are watching the oil drain while you feed the fresh oil in, at about the quart level you will start to see streaks of clear oil appear.  By the second 1/2 quart level it should be running out crystal clear indicating a full fresh oil system change.
KD

road-dawgs1

Quote from: Ironheadmike on April 13, 2019, 11:47:08 AM
About 20 or so years ago I bought a scavenge . I was made of plastic and a clear hose . I paid five bucks for it . Last fall I put it in the garbage can to drain and I forgot about it . Now I  only can find one for sixty bucks , that's crazy .

I have something similar, it's plastic and has a hose on it. Think I got it J&P sometime along. Can't remember the name of it.
'24 FLTRX Sharkskin blue

Hilly13

 :crash:
Quote from: kd on April 13, 2019, 04:46:30 PM
Quote from: Hilly13 on April 13, 2019, 01:00:00 PM
Quote from: koko3052 on April 13, 2019, 09:02:38 AM
After watching Rogues vid I have to disagree. As the twinky  feeds oil from tank to pump to filter to engine & the vid shows the engine running & the oil running out, then how is the engine getting oil? It has to be getting some oil from the filter adapter or you are starving your engine. Now if it is doing that, then used oil is still getting mixed with the fresh. As rigidthumper says....it just wastes oil!
If you are wasting a quart every change then why not just change your oil a quarter of the mileage sooner? That will come out to the same cost. :potstir:
You put fresh oil in the tank and start the engine, on the twin cam the oil you see exiting the hose is what would normally be returning to tank, when it runs clear you shut the engine off, works like they say, Evo was different.
I do it, most dont, it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that I got 99% of the old oil out.



The system comes with a puck that screws on in place of the oil filter you have removed.  It channels the oil internally when you run the engine later in the process.  A fitting (in the kit) with a hose barb on one end  is screwed into the pipe plug hole next to the drain plug.  A clear hose is slipped one end onto the barb fitting and the other end is placed in a fresh quart of oil.  (the drain plug and dip stick are out)  You start the engine and the oil is instantly drawn into the engine from the fresh quart and the old oil it is replacing drains from the open drain plug hole.  When the quart is empty, you stick the hose into another quart, run it down 1/2 way and shut the engine off.  Allow the pan to drain off before reinserting the drain plug then fill to the mark on the dip stick.  If you are watching the oil drain while you feed the fresh oil in, at about the quart level you will start to see streaks of clear oil appear.  By the second 1/2 quart level it should be running out crystal clear indicating a full fresh oil system change.
Well on my old 06 Dyna and the current 2016 Softail there was no bottles getting sucked up, puck on, bungs in, new oil in tank, hose on return line and into a container, on the Dyna you pulled the filler off and poked a plastic 90° fitting into the the return port with a hose on it, on the softy you pop the return pipe out of the tank and put the hose on the end of that, start bike, run till oil clear, shut it off, put it all back to normal state, top up oil and away you go, that's per the instructions in my words, perhaps your bike is different model to what I've got/had KD and the procedure is different? [attach=0]
Just because its said don't make it so

1workinman

Quote from: kd on April 13, 2019, 06:30:03 AM
It always bothered me that I was leaving about a quart (or 25%) of the old used oil in the system when I changed the oil normally.  I saw it as contaminating the new oil and reducing the value.  Also, the dollars spent and care taken on a built engine wasn't getting the full protection of the oil change that was intended.  I read about the Rogue total oil change kit and a friend said after he started using one, at the 5000 mile oil change, his oil still looked like honey, as apposed to the dark black fluid he used to drain out.  I figured if removing that last 25% made that much difference I would try it.  I found the same and now I have the kit.  It takes a couple of minutes more to run out that last bit of oil, but as you do it you are replacing it with clean oil which actually saves time.  You end up getting a 100% oil exchange (sump . pan and lines, minus cling) every time.


https://roguechopper.com/
KD that is what you use now . I might try that also . I even thought I might just machine a block of plate at work and just make me one and use the stock square cut gasket from a used oil filter to seal it with . Either way I like the idea of getting all or most of the oil out   

kd

Hilly, I have a TC-A engine am using the kit for that model.  The difference is in the oil pan vs oil bag but most of the components appear to be the same except the fitting and placement.

Workinman, that is what I use and have found it makes a huge difference with the color of the oil over the period of use.  IMO that is a huge statement on what the residual oil effect is and again IMO it should allow for extended service life.  I haven't sampled oil to confirm it but using the KISS method, clear, clean oil at 5000 miles means lots. 
KD

Ohio HD

Quote from: kd on April 13, 2019, 04:46:30 PM
The system comes with a puck that screws on in place of the oil filter you have removed.  It channels the oil internally when you run the engine later in the process.  A fitting (in the kit) with a hose barb on one end  is screwed into the pipe plug hole next to the drain plug.  A clear hose is slipped one end onto the barb fitting and the other end is placed in a fresh quart of oil.  (the drain plug and dip stick are out)  You start the engine and the oil is instantly drawn into the engine from the fresh quart and the old oil it is replacing drains from the open drain plug hole.  When the quart is empty, you stick the hose into another quart, run it down 1/2 way and shut the engine off.  Allow the pan to drain off before reinserting the drain plug then fill to the mark on the dip stick.  If you are watching the oil drain while you feed the fresh oil in, at about the quart level you will start to see streaks of clear oil appear.  By the second 1/2 quart level it should be running out crystal clear indicating a full fresh oil system change.

I want to give this a try, I ordered one just now. I guess my plan will be to use a low priced oil to be the washout quart of oil. Then use the oil type and weight on the second quart that will be used for the oil change. In my case Redline. Too expensive to use as a donor quart.

kd

Quote from: Ohio HD on April 14, 2019, 07:58:17 AM
Quote from: kd on April 13, 2019, 04:46:30 PM
The system comes with a puck that screws on in place of the oil filter you have removed.  It channels the oil internally when you run the engine later in the process.  A fitting (in the kit) with a hose barb on one end  is screwed into the pipe plug hole next to the drain plug.  A clear hose is slipped one end onto the barb fitting and the other end is placed in a fresh quart of oil.  (the drain plug and dip stick are out)  You start the engine and the oil is instantly drawn into the engine from the fresh quart and the old oil it is replacing drains from the open drain plug hole.  When the quart is empty, you stick the hose into another quart, run it down 1/2 way and shut the engine off.  Allow the pan to drain off before reinserting the drain plug then fill to the mark on the dip stick.  If you are watching the oil drain while you feed the fresh oil in, at about the quart level you will start to see streaks of clear oil appear.  By the second 1/2 quart level it should be running out crystal clear indicating a full fresh oil system change.

I want to give this a try, I ordered one just now. I guess my plan will be to use a low priced oil to be the washout quart of oil. Then use the oil type and weight on the second quart that will be used for the oil change. In my case Redline. Too expensive to use as a donor quart.



Brian, the fresh oil just pushes the old oil out by occupying the space it is left in when you drain it.  The fresh oil remains in the galleries etc  and you simply top it up.  It doesn't actually take more oil to fill in the end.  Having said that, I think a portion of the last 1/2 quart is just pushing out the residue caught the tank as it usually looks clear with a thin strand of dark oil trace flowing with it.  I have decided for the cost of that last 1/2 quart it feeds my OCD concerns and I do it any way.   :teeth:  I have been using 10/60 Liquimoly that I stocked up on (2 - 4 jug cases) at $35 per 5 liter jug (free shipping) so the cost to me is minimal ($3.50).
KD

Ohio HD

I guess I was looking along the method you mentioned, using a complete quart, then a second quart to start again. If the 2nd quart is pulled in say half as you mentioned. It should relive the cases of the balance of the donor quart. Guess I will need to measure what comes out first to get an idea if it's feasible or not.

Paniolo

So looking at the video on the web link, it didn't show the flushing quart hooked up to the fitting next to the drain hole and getting pumped IN. And he didn't explain it the way he did. All it showed was the exit hose dumping the old oil OUT. It gave me the impression that all it was doing was pumping oil out, and not replenishing it.

I understand now. I like this. I'll wait for others to report their success before deciding on making a purchase.
Life can only be lived in the present moment.

kd

As long as you remember there is no oil lost (with the exception of the clear oil you see draining out signalling the end of the process) I think it will be obvious to you how it works.  The cool oil from the fresh quart that you feed in, easily moves the thinner hot (ish) oil out and replaces it.  The hot oil has less cling and actually seems to evacuate quite well.   It will be hard to read the dipstick for a long time after your oil change when you get that last quart or so out of there.   When you start the engine to begin the process you will notice the oil light goes out immediately and the oil pressure gauge pops up like it normally would every day. 
KD

kd

Quote from: Paniolo on April 14, 2019, 08:28:12 AM
So looking at the video on the web link, it didn't show the flushing quart hooked up to the fitting next to the drain hole and getting pumped IN. And he didn't explain it the way he did. All it showed was the exit hose dumping the old oil OUT. It gave me the impression that all it was doing was pumping oil out, and not replenishing it.

I understand now. I like this. I'll wait for others to report their success before deciding on making a purchase.


The thing to remember here is there are 3 versions of the tool.  There are A & B TC engines and Evo engines.  I have the Evo and A engine versions but don't have a B engine so don't need it.  All 3 engines have differences in oil delivery so the procedure will vary between them.
KD

Paniolo

Quote from: kd on April 14, 2019, 08:40:11 AM
The thing to remember here is there are 3 versions of the tool.  There are A & B TC engines and Evo engines.  I have the Evo and A engine versions but don't have a B engine so don't need it.  All 3 engines have differences in oil delivery so the procedure will vary between them.

Mines a TCA too. I wonder what kind of fitting that is for the oil pan, size and thread pitch. Seems like it could easily be found at a good hardware store or on-line.
Life can only be lived in the present moment.

PoorUB

Quote from: Paniolo on April 14, 2019, 08:59:07 AM
Quote from: kd on April 14, 2019, 08:40:11 AM
The thing to remember here is there are 3 versions of the tool.  There are A & B TC engines and Evo engines.  I have the Evo and A engine versions but don't have a B engine so don't need it.  All 3 engines have differences in oil delivery so the procedure will vary between them.

Mines a TCA too. I wonder what kind of fitting that is for the oil pan, size and thread pitch. Seems like it could easily be found at a good hardware store or on-line.

If you look at a TCA oil pan there is an oil passage drilled behind the pipe plug. The passage is drilled horizontally to the rear of the bike, into the oil pan itself. It meets another passage the goes up into the transmission case, then on the the engine. You need a fitting to block off  the oil passage in the oil pan. That is why that fitting is long, with a slot in the side. The end of the fitting blocks off the oil pan, and the slot allows oil to flow up the oil passage to the engine. You are not going to find a fitting at a hardware store!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Paniolo

Quote from: PoorUB on April 14, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
If you look at a TCA oil pan there is an oil passage drilled behind the pipe plug. The passage is drilled horizontally to the rear of the bike, into the oil pan itself. It meets another passage the goes up into the transmission case, then on the the engine. You need a fitting to block off  the oil passage in the oil pan. That is why that fitting is long, with a slot in the side. The end of the fitting blocks off the oil pan, and the slot allows oil to flow up the oil passage to the engine. You are not going to find a fitting at a hardware store!

Got it, thanks.
Life can only be lived in the present moment.

Paniolo

Quote from: PoorUB on April 14, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Quote from: Paniolo on April 14, 2019, 08:59:07 AM

If you look at a TCA oil pan there is an oil passage drilled behind the pipe plug. The passage is drilled horizontally to the rear of the bike, into the oil pan itself. It meets another passage the goes up into the transmission case, then on the the engine. You need a fitting to block off  the oil passage in the oil pan. That is why that fitting is long, with a slot in the side. The end of the fitting blocks off the oil pan, and the slot allows oil to flow up the oil passage to the engine. You are not going to find a fitting at a hardware store!

So looking at the attached diagram, the fitting replaces item 20. Is that right?
Life can only be lived in the present moment.

PoorUB

Yep!
You can also see the passage in the pan coming out the top, right above the hole for the plug.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

koko3052

"So looking at the video on the web link, it didn't show the flushing quart hooked up to the fitting next to the drain hole and getting pumped IN. And he didn't explain it the way he did. All it showed was the exit hose dumping the old oil OUT. It gave me the impression that all it was doing was pumping oil out, and not replenishing it."

That is exactly what I saw & it wasn't very heart warming. If it is indeed like kd explained then I may see it doing some good.
I run a TC B & if it is like Hilly13 explained then that is a deal breaker for sure. I have never just been able to "pop" the return line off the tank. It is always a fight with the exhaust too.