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I bought a new Road glide Special Milwaukee Eight for my shop test mule, and have already posted two dyno graphs here.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,95898.0.html (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,95898.0.html)
So far it has been tuned stock, then added Street Cannon slip on's and retuned.
Future graphs and details will be posted here as I take it step by step up to cams for now.
FWIW I checked the CCP today, 215/215 dead even, I am happy about that.
The bike now has 117 miles on it and the next move is to install the SE air cleaner and retune. I will be working on this as time allows.
Eric, 1FSTRK, here is the layover graph you requested, I also added run 49 as I was able to pull the AUC back to where it was with stock mufflers.
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How does it feel when you ride it between stock and the tune so far?
Snappier, smoother, more refined?
Quote from: festus on January 12, 2017, 03:25:32 PM
How does it feel when you ride it between stock and the tune so far?
Snappier, smoother, more refined?
I have yet to ride this bike on the road after the tune, I will post my impressions when I do, but it will have the SE air cleaner added and tuned before that happens.
It is definitely snappier and smoother on the dyno.
Durwood if I may ask what engine temps are you tuning the Glide at and what is the max temp you are seeing before you let it cool down and go again
I'm torn between buying a new one or continuing to fix up my Twin Cam...I'll be watching this thread closely :pop:
How do you like the new bike so far?
Quote from: RXBOB on January 12, 2017, 09:36:23 PM
Durwood if I may ask what engine temps are you tuning the Glide at and what is the max temp you are seeing before you let it cool down and go again
I begin at 200* and shut it down when it reaches 280*.
Quote from: sfmichael on January 12, 2017, 11:38:25 PM
I'm torn between buying a new one or continuing to fix up my Twin Cam...I'll be watching this thread closely :pop:
How do you like the new bike so far?
I like it, but haven't ridden it yet. It had 1 mile on it when I put it on the dyno.
thanks for taking us along for the ride with all the details! :up:
I will be watching to see how your testing goes.
I wonder when Wes will get in the cam game for the M8? I do like his cams.
Quote from: Durwood on January 13, 2017, 04:10:51 AM
Quote from: RXBOB on January 12, 2017, 09:36:23 PM
Durwood if I may ask what engine temps are you tuning the Glide at and what is the max temp you are seeing before you let it cool down and go again
I begin at 200* and shut it down when it reaches 280*.
My Tuner does 180* to 250* and the bike gets hotter than this out on the highway, I like the fact that he is looking after the bike but by doing it the cool way is it missing anything
interesting to see what a stage I does for performance. I just installed the SE street cannons, SE heavy breather intake, and SE tuner. Smartune but no dyno or base line to compare it against. would be interesting to see how you make out once you add these things.
Durwood,
I have been reading M8 threads for the last couple months and in one, I saw something about torque management... have you seen this in the tunes? If so, how does it work?
Chris
Quote from: cmashark on January 13, 2017, 07:10:42 PM
Durwood,
I have been reading M8 threads for the last couple months and in one, I saw something about torque management... have you seen this in the tunes? If so, how does it work?
Chris
Yes, it's there. TM pulls power around 4K rpm, I could feel it kick in on the dyno in 4th gear.
I turn it off in the calibration, as well as the speed limiters.
Good stuff Darren. Can you post Speed over time? So we can see how much better it accelerates.
I got a chance to install and tune the SE stage one AC today, it picked up nicely over the stock unit, which BTW I had the vent hoses removed and had zero oil in the housing.
[attach=0]
Here's the before and after.
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Thanks for posting all this great information... have about 6300 miles on my M8 now & love it !
Quote from: twincamzz on January 14, 2017, 12:50:37 PM
Thanks for posting all this great information... have about 6300 miles on my M8 now & love it !
Mine has 175 miles on it now, It had 1 mile when I put it on the dyno for the break in.
You're welcome.
Daren
Torque on these things are nice.
I forgot to mention that I installed some stiffer clutch springs to help the Assist and Slip clutch, they improved the grip below 2500 where the torque is really coming on strong.
:up:
Quote from: Roadraceking on January 14, 2017, 09:40:27 PM
Torque on these things are nice.
Not to be the Devils Advocate but it is 107 cubic inches,it should have some Getty up go.. :SM:
Thats a nice Lookin test mule there D. Keep up the good work. :scoot:
Darn good torque, Good looking bike too. Fullsac next?
Yup, good looking bike. Bummer about the fairing..........
Quote from: Hossamania on January 17, 2017, 12:29:31 PM
Yup, good looking bike. Bummer about the fairing..........
:pop:
Quote from: Hossamania on January 17, 2017, 12:29:31 PM
Yup, good looking bike. Bummer about the fairing..........
:SM:
Quote from: Deye76 on January 17, 2017, 12:05:54 PM
Darn good torque, Good looking bike too. Fullsac next?
If I go aftermarket, I will use Fuel Moto's 2-1-2.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 17, 2017, 12:29:31 PM
Yup, good looking bike. Bummer about the fairing..........
Hoss, I didn't like them before I rode my last bike, the ability to go around big trucks at 80 mph without even a wiggle is what sold me.
She may be ugly, but she works. Function over form. :teeth:
At the risk of de-railing the thread...
I see it's cold and humid which is good for charge and power, but will admit I was surprised after all the M8 hype at how little the ****STOCK**** improvement is over my old twinkie/cv40.
The assumption therefore is that HD is yet again selling in effect a "crippled" product that the owner can then spend $$ on to release the ponies?
I'd ask the OP, dyno's are a lovely way of measuring and verifying and getting numbers, but every pukka dyno operator I know can read more into those numbers, and the seat of the pants feel from being on hand when the run was done, than the numbers alone will ever express, so does the OP think the M8 is as "tunable" as the twinkie or more so, in relative terms, and is that tuning process likely to change the characteristics of the motor in the same way as the twinkie?
Not asking for any trade secrets here, just now that someone actually has one to dyno and mess with, was all the sucking of teeth justified or did HD knock one out of the grounds with the M8?
Quote from: jbexeter on January 18, 2017, 05:15:41 AM
At the risk of de-railing the thread...
I see it's cold and humid which is good for charge and power, but will admit I was surprised after all the M8 hype at how little the ****STOCK**** improvement is over my old twinkie/cv40.
The assumption therefore is that HD is yet again selling in effect a "crippled" product that the owner can then spend $$ on to release the ponies?
I'd ask the OP, dyno's are a lovely way of measuring and verifying and getting numbers, but every pukka dyno operator I know can read more into those numbers, and the seat of the pants feel from being on hand when the run was done, than the numbers alone will ever express, so does the OP think the M8 is as "tunable" as the twinkie or more so, in relative terms, and is that tuning process likely to change the characteristics of the motor in the same way as the twinkie?
Not asking for any trade secrets here, just now that someone actually has one to dyno and mess with, was all the sucking of teeth justified or did HD knock one out of the grounds with the M8?
I am curious: are you saying your
stock TC with a CV40 carb made 100 TQ at 2000 RPM? Or was that after modifying?
Quote from: jbexeter on January 18, 2017, 05:15:41 AM
At the risk of de-railing the thread...
I see it's cold and humid which is good for charge and power, but will admit I was surprised after all the M8 hype at how little the ****STOCK**** improvement is over my old twinkie/cv40.
The assumption therefore is that HD is yet again selling in effect a "crippled" product that the owner can then spend $$ on to release the ponies?
I'd ask the OP, dyno's are a lovely way of measuring and verifying and getting numbers, but every pukka dyno operator I know can read more into those numbers, and the seat of the pants feel from being on hand when the run was done, than the numbers alone will ever express, so does the OP think the M8 is as "tunable" as the twinkie or more so, in relative terms, and is that tuning process likely to change the characteristics of the motor in the same way as the twinkie?
Not asking for any trade secrets here, just now that someone actually has one to dyno and mess with, was all the sucking of teeth justified or did HD knock one out of the grounds with the M8?
Yes, the M8 platform is solid.
I put 75 miles on it yesterday, it is smooth everywhere, and very responsive in it's current state, with only a set of mufflers, an air cleaner and a good tune.
It will be a bit, but my next move is the head pipe, I want to see for myself if there are any gains to be had there before I start testing cams.
Here is my M8 as it is now, vs a 2016 air cooled 103 I tuned, that had a head pipe change, note the torque increase right in the sweet spot where most guys ride.
Added: Robin, we were typing at the same time. :teeth:
[attach=0]
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 18, 2017, 05:34:45 AM
I am curious: are you saying your stock TC with a CV40 carb made 100 TQ at 2000 RPM? Or was that after modifying?
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,92474.msg1066688.html#msg1066688 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,92474.msg1066688.html#msg1066688)
72 rwbhp @ 4,700 (81 ft/lb)
100 ft/lb @ 3,000 (57 bhp)
at 2,000 it was about 35 bhp and 92 ft/lb
I would not call it stock, 88 to 103 stageiv kit from original owner, so yes it's modified, but it isn't exactly wild either
I understand it's not a "fair" comparison with the HD marketing policy of selling crippled bikes to compare a staged twinkie to a stock m8
edit / added - shouldn't be a surprise really, at 2/3k rpm a 40 mm throat cv carb is going to shine
Quote from: Durwood on January 18, 2017, 06:10:34 AM
Quote from: jbexeter on January 18, 2017, 05:15:41 AM
At the risk of de-railing the thread...
I see it's cold and humid which is good for charge and power, but will admit I was surprised after all the M8 hype at how little the ****STOCK**** improvement is over my old twinkie/cv40.
The assumption therefore is that HD is yet again selling in effect a "crippled" product that the owner can then spend $$ on to release the ponies?
I'd ask the OP, dyno's are a lovely way of measuring and verifying and getting numbers, but every pukka dyno operator I know can read more into those numbers, and the seat of the pants feel from being on hand when the run was done, than the numbers alone will ever express, so does the OP think the M8 is as "tunable" as the twinkie or more so, in relative terms, and is that tuning process likely to change the characteristics of the motor in the same way as the twinkie?
Not asking for any trade secrets here, just now that someone actually has one to dyno and mess with, was all the sucking of teeth justified or did HD knock one out of the grounds with the M8?
Yes, the M8 platform is solid.
I put 75 miles on it yesterday, it is smooth everywhere, and very responsive in it's current state, with only a set of mufflers, an air cleaner and a good tune.
It will be a bit, but my next move is the head pipe, I want to see for myself if there are any gains to be had there before I start testing cams.
Here is my M8 as it is now, vs a 2016 air cooled 103 I tuned, that had a head pipe change, note the torque increase right in the sweet spot where most guys ride.
Added: Robin, we were typing at the same time. :teeth:
[attach=0]
Great graph right there, thanks for posting it.
The TC would have come in a little earlier and had less hp with a little different exhaust but it does show how little is gained from the 4 valve heads in stage 1 configuration.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the removal of the Cat.
Thanks again for time you put into testing and posting these all this.
Added
If it is not asking to much, would you do a warm Cylinder Cranking Pressure test for us?
I'd say a 10-12 ft/lb tq increase right where most people ride is significant, & that is with a lot poorer exhaust system. I've ridden both the 107 & 114 & no they're not as strong as my 103 TC, but it has a non HD stage 4. It just seems like everyone wants to say it's not much better than a TC, stock vs stock I think it's a good improvement & probably even more so if they had to try to make a TC meet the new EPA standards. I also think the potential for gains per $$ spent is better.
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 18, 2017, 03:40:32 PM
I'd say a 10-12 ft/lb tq increase right where most people ride is significant, & that is with a lot poorer exhaust system. I've ridden both the 107 & 114 & no they're not as strong as my 103 TC, but it has a non HD stage 4. It just seems like everyone wants to say it's not much better than a TC, stock vs stock I think it's a good improvement & probably even more so if they had to try to make a TC meet the new EPA standards. I also think the potential for gains per $$ spent is better.
The tq you speak of is the product of a package that HD targeted and it is a good starting point but more a observation of curve not output.
If we take the emotion out of this and deal with the math the engine is bigger, has more compression, a larger, better stock exhaust, 50% better flowing heads and much more. All I am saying is all these improvements and in stage one form they yield a very small loss in hp/ci and a small increase in tq/ci.
103Ho stage one 88.55hp .859 hp/ci 104.59tq 1.015 hp/ci
107 M-8 stage one 87.19hp .814 hp/ci 109.38tq 1.022 hp/ci
These engines will make many happy just by being the latest from HD but to those that are here for the Tech in HTT, in stage one form they are not technologically advanced in their performance at this point when compared to the engine they will replace.
Thanks for the info Durwood. Just so I understand about the vent hoses when you changed air cleaners. There was no oil drip from them? Do you think we can get away without venting them to atmosphere?
Quote from: rich1 on January 18, 2017, 04:26:34 PM
Thanks for the info Durwood. Just so I understand about the vent hoses when you changed air cleaners. There was no oil drip from them? Do you think we can get away without venting them to atmosphere?
Yes, the new breather design is not letting oil pass through, at least not on mine, and I have ran it hard.
Mine is vented because I prepped the backing plate for installation way ahead of even heat cycling the engine, had I known what I know now I would not have done it.
All I get is a little moisture when it's cold, absolutely no oil.
You guys are more than welcome, I really enjoy what we are doing and look forward to the next test, the pipe.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 18, 2017, 04:15:49 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 18, 2017, 03:40:32 PM
I'd say a 10-12 ft/lb tq increase right where most people ride is significant, & that is with a lot poorer exhaust system. I've ridden both the 107 & 114 & no they're not as strong as my 103 TC, but it has a non HD stage 4. It just seems like everyone wants to say it's not much better than a TC, stock vs stock I think it's a good improvement & probably even more so if they had to try to make a TC meet the new EPA standards. I also think the potential for gains per $$ spent is better.
The tq you speak of is the product of a package that HD targeted and it is a good starting point but more a observation of curve not output.
If we take the emotion out of this and deal with the math the engine is bigger, has more compression, a larger, better stock exhaust, 50% better flowing heads and much more. All I am saying is all these improvements and in stage one form they yield a very small loss in hp/ci and a small increase in tq/ci.
103Ho stage one 88.55hp .859 hp/ci 104.59tq 1.015 hp/ci
107 M-8 stage one 87.19hp .814 hp/ci 109.38tq 1.022 hp/ci
These engines will make many happy just by being the latest from HD but to those that are here for the Tech in HTT, in stage one form they are not technologically advanced in their performance at this point when compared to the engine they will replace.
We'll see what the #s are with a full stage one exhaust, the 103 you're using for comparison has one of the best stage one exhausts available, I'm not saying it's "fantastic" but the comparison earlier was that it's no better than a TC. I've yet to see an apples to apples comparison as far as mods & $$ spent. It seems as though everyone is offended that it might be better than their TC, I love my TC but I don't think it's as good out of the box as the M8.
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 18, 2017, 05:24:09 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 18, 2017, 04:15:49 PM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 18, 2017, 03:40:32 PM
I'd say a 10-12 ft/lb tq increase right where most people ride is significant, & that is with a lot poorer exhaust system. I've ridden both the 107 & 114 & no they're not as strong as my 103 TC, but it has a non HD stage 4. It just seems like everyone wants to say it's not much better than a TC, stock vs stock I think it's a good improvement & probably even more so if they had to try to make a TC meet the new EPA standards. I also think the potential for gains per $$ spent is better.
The tq you speak of is the product of a package that HD targeted and it is a good starting point but more a observation of curve not output.
If we take the emotion out of this and deal with the math the engine is bigger, has more compression, a larger, better stock exhaust, 50% better flowing heads and much more. All I am saying is all these improvements and in stage one form they yield a very small loss in hp/ci and a small increase in tq/ci.
103Ho stage one 88.55hp .859 hp/ci 104.59tq 1.015 hp/ci
107 M-8 stage one 87.19hp .814 hp/ci 109.38tq 1.022 hp/ci
These engines will make many happy just by being the latest from HD but to those that are here for the Tech in HTT, in stage one form they are not technologically advanced in their performance at this point when compared to the engine they will replace.
We'll see what the #s are with a full stage one exhaust, the 103 you're using for comparison has one of the best stage one exhausts available, I'm not saying it's "fantastic" but the comparison earlier was that it's no better than a TC. I've yet to see an apples to apples comparison as far as mods & $$ spent. It seems as though everyone is offended that it might be better than their TC, I love my TC but I don't think it's as good out of the box as the M8.
I am not among the offended, as I said I like numbers, leave the emotion out of it.
From what I have seen the stock pipe is much better on the M-8, and the difference between a good pipe and a great pipe is not that big a player on any stage one.
The stage two has started in the dyno section and they also run parallel to the TC counter parts. Just like with the drop-in TC kits people are warm and fuzzy over the numbers until you do the math and see it nothing new, no replacement for displacement.
I'm hoping I can get my 2017 RK on my dealers dyno for it's base pulls and see how he's doing this Saturday. I should have 500 miles on it by then. I have my Eliminator 400's and FP3 here now. I have a V&H naked A/C on order. And supposedly I will have a S&S Stealth A/C kit here tomorrow. J & P swears it's S&S new A/C for the M8 but a dingle ball who claims to be with S&S says they don't make one for the M8 yet. And as of yesterday I have not seen one on the S&S website. So who knows. If the S&S unit is a failure fit wise I will return it to J & P and wait on the V&H unit to get here.
Quote from: psyshack on January 18, 2017, 07:19:31 PM
I'm hoping I can get my 2017 RK on my dealers dyno for it's base pulls and see how he's doing this Saturday. I should have 500 miles on it by then. I have my Eliminator 400's and FP3 here now. I have a V&H naked A/C on order. And supposedly I will have a S&S Stealth A/C kit here tomorrow. J & P swears it's S&S new A/C for the M8 but a dingle ball who claims to be with S&S says they don't make one for the M8 yet. And as of yesterday I have not seen one on the S&S website. So who knows. If the S&S unit is a failure fit wise I will return it to J & P and wait on the V&H unit to get here.
The real dingleball might be the one at J&P....
Agreed,,, Dingle balls everywhere. :SM:
can you explain the TM further , and what tuner are you using to shut it off?
Went on an 80 mile, 2 up ride today, one thing for sure is the new suspension for 2017 is a huge improvement over my 2011, it feels like it's on rails.
This basic stage one will be good enough for most, nice smooth low end grunt as my previous 2011 RGU displayed, but I surely miss the mid-upper rpm torque I had in my '11 stage 2, 103.
It will be a bit before I can continue as I have too much work at the moment to play, but will post the results of a full stage one with Fuel Moto's Jackpot head pipe, then the cam testing begins.
Must be nice to be able to ride in January! Enjoy! Doubt I will be able to go here until at least March. :emoGroan:
Quote from: guydoc77 on January 21, 2017, 09:42:39 PM
Must be nice to be able to ride in January! Enjoy! Doubt I will be able to go here until at least March. :emoGroan:
j
EXACTLY,,,, temp's have been okay, But the slop(salt/Calcium Chloride) on the road is NOT :SM:
Quote from: Durwood on January 21, 2017, 07:39:45 PM
Went on an 80 mile, 2 up ride today, one thing for sure is the new suspension for 2017 is a huge improvement over my 2011, it feels like it's on rails.
This basic stage one will be good enough for most, nice smooth low end grunt as my previous 2011 RGU displayed, but I surely miss the mid-upper rpm torque I had in my '11 stage 2, 103.
It will be a bit before I can continue as I have too much work at the moment to play, but will post the results of a full stage one with Fuel Moto's Jackpot head pipe, then the cam testing begins.
So we get to set inside with nothing good to read or discuss because your too busy making money and riding motorcycle to entertain us with testing. :banghead:
Good for you, you earned it. :up: :up:
I got a small window today to test a set of mufflers.
I warmed the bike and dyno and did pulls with the Street Cannon's, then swapped over to the Kerker's, they sound much better than the Cannon's, IMO, the SE offering is just too quiet for me.
Next test will be head pipes, but I have a feeling we won't see any huge improvement until we put a cam in it.
[attach=0]
:up: :up: great post, thanks for sharing it.
I will wait to see if it is the head pipe or cams that are in control at this stage.
Took some time today with the shop being closed and tried a de-catted stock head pipe.
Here where we came from and where we are now. The bike sounds much better.
[attach=0]
I am not really happy to see these great results you are getting with the new M8 engine.
I road tested one a few months back and tried really hard not to be impressed by the smoothness and power right out of the box.
Now I am trying really hard to not trade my present ride in on a new 2017.
The results of your testing are doing nothing to help my resolve .... :SM:
:up: De-cat was a nice improvement. Very respectable numbers.
that was a nice gain right there.
Keep up the great work Daren. :up:
I can't wait to see the difference when you swap the cam out.
Any thoughts on a cam yet?
Ray
I looks like from Darren's testing so far the stock a/c must go.
I've seen comparisons of my Rushmore stocker and it doesn't really seem to hold back much, but the M8 is really choked!
My buddy negotiated with the dealer he bought his Limited from up here to throw in a Stage 1 package which included that skinny Ventilator a/c, Cannons and the Street Tuner. He never rode his bike before the Stage upgrade but says it is a dream compared to his old 96" and I don't doubt it.
Thanks guys, and for clarification, the previous graph I posted the red line was completely tuned with stock AC and exhaust vs the blue line, stage one with the de-catted head pipe, SE AC and Kerker mufflers to illustrate where it was with just a tune and where it is now, sorry for the confusion.
Here's the comparison with and without the cat, note no real power gains but it sure does sound better.
[attach=0]
Quote from: No Cents on February 18, 2017, 05:17:45 PM
that was a nice gain right there.
Keep up the great work Daren. :up:
I can't wait to see the difference when you swap the cam out.
Any thoughts on a cam yet?
Ray
Yes, I will have the first of the test cams in my hands very soon. I also have a head pipe coming from Fuel moto and mufflers from RC component's.
Today it's going to be near 70*, so I feel that a road test is in order. :smiled:
Great work :up: :up: and as always thanks for your time and for sharing.
Would you post a graph showing runfile 77 from reply #15 and runfile 9 from reply #54
Thanks
Great testing Darren. Clearly this proves the new head combination despite being large can be scaled down and make very respectable horsepower and especially torque. That combination you have now would satisfy a great majority of the riders out there. The exciting element is that there is so much untapped potential.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 19, 2017, 05:24:54 AM
Great work :up: :up: and as always thanks for your time and for sharing.
Would you post a graph showing runfile 77 from reply #15 and runfile 9 from reply #54
Thanks
Thanks, here you go.
[attach=0]
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 19, 2017, 05:30:54 AM
Great testing Darren. Clearly this proves the new head combination despite being large can be scaled down and make very respectable horsepower and especially torque. That combination you have now would satisfy a great majority of the riders out there. The exciting element is that there is so much untapped potential.
Thanks Don, I agree that there is a ton of untapped potential with the Milwaukee Eight.
Herko and I devised the small methodical steps in this testing, including the break in process, so that we could compile as much data as possible, taking baby steps instead of quantum leaps.
Thanks for the additional graph.
It is looking like the exhaust is not the controlling factor at this level, the a back to back with the new head pipe be the next test?
Quote from: 1FSTRK on February 20, 2017, 03:43:11 AM
Thanks for the additional graph.
It is looking like the exhaust is not the controlling factor at this level, the a back to back with the new head pipe be the next test?
Agreed. the next test will either be more mufflers or head pipe, whichever gets here first.
Ok, let me see if I am understanding this correctly....changing to a non-cat exhaust system had no gain in performance, but did improve the perceived sound? Is that what I am reading? So another words if you put on a set of Street Cannons, left the stock head pipe with cat the bike would perform the same as if you either gutted the stock header or spent $$ to get an non cat head pipe with the same slip ons. Am I missing something here? Except for the sound the stock exhaust header with cat is as efficient as a non cat head pipe system??? How can that be? So wondering outloud if one were to go with the $1200 HD "high flow" system with the cats in the Street Cannons how that would compare to an aftermarket non cat system or the current headpipe with Street Cannons alone? If the performance is the same with or without the cat, besides the sound, why would one bother to change it...except maybe for the heat reduction? Please set my thinking straight on this as I am confused. Thanks in advance.
Quote from: spook on February 20, 2017, 01:04:12 PM
Ok, let me see if I am understanding this correctly....changing to a non-cat exhaust system had no gain in performance, but did improve the perceived sound? Is that what I am reading? So another words if you put on a set of Street Cannons, left the stock head pipe with cat the bike would perform the same as if you either gutted the stock header or spent $$ to get an non cat head pipe with the same slip ons. Am I missing something here? Except for the sound the stock exhaust header with cat is as efficient as a non cat head pipe system??? How can that be? So wondering outloud if one were to go with the $1200 HD "high flow" system with the cats in the Street Cannons how that would compare to an aftermarket non cat system or the current headpipe with Street Cannons alone? If the performance is the same with or without the cat, besides the sound, why would one bother to change it...except maybe for the heat reduction? Please set my thinking straight on this as I am confused. Thanks in advance.
Yes Spook, you are correct as far as de-catting the stock head pipe, it raised the db level only and reduced the heat, no performance gains were seen at this level, add cams and cubes, then I suspect things will change.
As far as an aftermarket head pipe, I will post the results with the Fuel Moto 2-1-2 head pipe when I receive it and perform the testing, Jamie has had gains with FM 2-1-2 over the stock pipe, so it should be interesting to see.
The Street Cannon's I tested did not have the catalyst, so it would be only speculation to say one way or the other, I personally don't care for the sound of them and if they were all that was available I would run the stock mufflers.
Daren
Quote from: spook on February 20, 2017, 01:04:12 PM
Ok, let me see if I am understanding this correctly....changing to a non-cat exhaust system had no gain in performance, but did improve the perceived sound? Is that what I am reading? So another words if you put on a set of Street Cannons, left the stock head pipe with cat the bike would perform the same as if you either gutted the stock header or spent $$ to get an non cat head pipe with the same slip ons. Am I missing something here? Except for the sound the stock exhaust header with cat is as efficient as a non cat head pipe system??? How can that be? So wondering outloud if one were to go with the $1200 HD "high flow" system with the cats in the Street Cannons how that would compare to an aftermarket non cat system or the current headpipe with Street Cannons alone? If the performance is the same with or without the cat, besides the sound, why would one bother to change it...except maybe for the heat reduction? Please set my thinking straight on this as I am confused. Thanks in advance.
:up: :up:
That is why this type of testing and posting is so important. No sales pitch or expected results, just honest testing an reporting.
Mr Sheffer is a class act for sharing this with us and HTT is the place to find this info.
Thank you very much for the clarification. I take interest in this as my 2017 CVO street glide just landed at the dealer and my parts guy and wrench would be very interested in taking this bike to a stage 4 level....all I have to do is pay for it! So before I let them rip into the bike I want to know what the cost/benefit ratio of various components. I am done chasing dyno numbers but do miss the 120 T man twin cam in my 06 Street Glide. Had a 2015 CVO SG which I left totally stock and it was ok for what it was, but just couldn't get excited about and sold it with 2000 miles on the clocks. Thanks again for the information. Keep it coming!!
Quote from: Durwood on January 15, 2017, 04:47:54 AM
I forgot to mention that I installed some stiffer clutch springs to help the Assist and Slip clutch, they improved the grip below 2500 where the torque is really coming on strong.
Daren, can you tell me more about the springs you used for this? Did they have any effect of lever pull?
Thanks,
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on February 23, 2017, 01:29:56 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 15, 2017, 04:47:54 AM
I forgot to mention that I installed some stiffer clutch springs to help the Assist and Slip clutch, they improved the grip below 2500 where the torque is really coming on strong.
Daren, can you tell me more about the springs you used for this? Did they have any effect of lever pull?
Thanks,
K.
They are Barnett red springs, they come in packs of 6, PN 501-99-06091, the lever pull isn't bad, I noticed a slight increase.
I tested the springs vs stock. Barnett's springs were 110# each, and the stock springs were 75#, compressed to the same height.
Quote from: Durwood on February 23, 2017, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on February 23, 2017, 01:29:56 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 15, 2017, 04:47:54 AM
I forgot to mention that I installed some stiffer clutch springs to help the Assist and Slip clutch, they improved the grip below 2500 where the torque is really coming on strong.
Daren, can you tell me more about the springs you used for this? Did they have any effect of lever pull?
Thanks,
K.
They are Barnett red springs, they come in packs of 6, PN 501-99-06091, the lever pull isn't bad, I noticed a slight increase.
I tested the springs vs stock. Barnett's springs were 110# each, and the stock springs were 75#, compressed to the same height.
Ok, cool... I read elsewhere that the '17 springs are a lighter weight spring versus the '13-'16 OEM springs. And also that AIM offers a heavier duty spring that is a 120# version. Any idea what the installed height is? What compressed height did you measure them at??
Thanks!
Quote from: NCTURBOS on February 23, 2017, 02:53:37 PM
Quote from: Durwood on February 23, 2017, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on February 23, 2017, 01:29:56 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 15, 2017, 04:47:54 AM
I forgot to mention that I installed some stiffer clutch springs to help the Assist and Slip clutch, they improved the grip below 2500 where the torque is really coming on strong.
Daren, can you tell me more about the springs you used for this? Did they have any effect of lever pull?
Thanks,
K.
They are Barnett red springs, they come in packs of 6, PN 501-99-06091, the lever pull isn't bad, I noticed a slight increase.
I tested the springs vs stock. Barnett's springs were 110# each, and the stock springs were 75#, compressed to the same height.
Ok, cool... I read elsewhere that the '17 springs are a lighter weight spring versus the '13-'16 OEM springs. And also that AIM offers a heavier duty spring that is a 120# version. Any idea what the installed height is? What compressed height did you measure them at??
Thanks!
This was a quick test as I just wanted to make sure they were in fact stiffer, we checked them @ 1.000"
Didn't check installed height, but I will the next time I have the derby cover off.
Excellent work Darren; Once again thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule, and coming on here posting and reporting info back to us... Really appreciated!! Keep up the good work brother.. Some sound clips would be really nice :wink:
The OEM springs from the CVO are 100 lbs each , they are now being sold as a SE item.. as I was they reduce the lbs on the 17 springs. SO you can also buy the early SE springs for a CVO .
Quote from: No Cents on February 18, 2017, 05:17:45 PM
that was a nice gain right there.
Keep up the great work Daren. :up:
I can't wait to see the difference when you swap the cam out.
Any thoughts on a cam yet?
Ray
Ray, I just received the word today, the prototype M8 cam is on the way to us from Cycle-Rama.
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on February 27, 2017, 03:08:52 PM
The OEM springs from the CVO are 100 lbs each , they are now being sold as a SE item.. as I was they reduce the lbs on the 17 springs. SO you can also buy the early SE springs for a CVO .
Steve, not sure I follow this.
Do you have the part number, lbs, and check height for the different springs?
Thanks
OEM number for the 15 spring is 11700002 retail is 4.99 each they are 100 lbs from my testing and as well what AIM has stated also.
Info on new spring is 100lbs . Buy some and check it out .
Quote from: rich1 on January 18, 2017, 04:26:34 PM
Thanks for the info Durwood. Just so I understand about the vent hoses when you changed air cleaners. There was no oil drip from them? Do you think we can get away without venting them to atmosphere?
Rich, I want to update my reply to this question, I am now seeing a very small amount of oil discharge, nothing like a Twin Cam but it is there. Very minute.
Also in the process of testing the Cycle-Rama prototype bolt in cam, I will post the graphs when completed.
The Cycle-Rama 450 cam got here before the Fuel Moto pipe, so I installed and tuned it with the Street Cannon's, SE AC, and de-catted stock head pipe, it is a huge improvement over the stock cam, 100 torque before 2K feels really good, and the way it carries out now is starting to make this fun. :teeth:
[attach=0]
This is just the beginning of testing with this cam, as I have time I will be trying different exhaust component's.
Great info glad to see it and honest numbers with the step by step..
Great work.
Looks clear at this level the cam was clearly in control of the curve. It will be interesting to see if the exhaust starts having a greater effect now with the bigger cam.
Can we see this run 26 on a graph with run 9
Thanks
Wood love to see a direct comparison swap to the M8-222... 😀
Quote from: NCTURBOS on March 09, 2017, 06:44:04 PM
Wood love to see a direct comparison swap to the M8-222... 😀
I am up for it. Just need the cam.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Great work.
Looks clear at this level the cam was clearly in control of the curve. It will be interesting to see if the exhaust starts having a greater effect now with the bigger cam.
Can we see this run 26 on a graph with run 9
Thanks
Will do Eric.
Quote from: Durwood on March 09, 2017, 06:47:17 PM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on March 09, 2017, 06:44:04 PM
Wood love to see a direct comparison swap to the M8-222... 😀
I am up for it. Just need the cam.
For high stepper like you , I would think you have 6 or 8 new cams for this bike laying around :wink:
Quote from: Durwood on March 09, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Great work.
Looks clear at this level the cam was clearly in control of the curve. It will be interesting to see if the exhaust starts having a greater effect now with the bigger cam.
Can we see this run 26 on a graph with run 9
Thanks
Will do Eric.
Here you go.
[attach=0]
Quote
For high stepper like you , I would think you have 6 or 8 new cams for this bike laying around
He probably would, but thus far, very few meet the current criteria. The CR M8 450 is definitely one that fits the category.
Quote from: Durwood on March 10, 2017, 09:24:39 AM
Quote from: Durwood on March 09, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Great work.
Looks clear at this level the cam was clearly in control of the curve. It will be interesting to see if the exhaust starts having a greater effect now with the bigger cam.
Can we see this run 26 on a graph with run 9
Thanks
Will do Eric.
Here you go.
[attach=0]
Thanks
It does show a nice gain for a stage two set up.
1 hp per cubic inch without pulling the heads will keep many guys happy with this alone.
Quote from: Herko on March 10, 2017, 11:14:32 AM
Quote
For high stepper like you , I would think you have 6 or 8 new cams for this bike laying around
He probably would, but thus far, very few meet the current criteria. The CR M8 450 is definitely one that fits the category.
[/quot
I get it I was being funny I have spoke with him on the testing I like the method that he is using ..
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 10, 2017, 12:31:33 PM
Quote from: Durwood on March 10, 2017, 09:24:39 AM
Quote from: Durwood on March 09, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Great work.
Looks clear at this level the cam was clearly in control of the curve. It will be interesting to see if the exhaust starts having a greater effect now with the bigger cam.
Can we see this run 26 on a graph with run 9
Thanks
Will do Eric.
Here you go.
[attach=0]
Thanks
It does show a nice gain for a stage two set up.
1 hp per cubic inch without pulling the heads will keep many guys happy with this alone.
Agreed, and as other exhaust systems and mufflers are tested I feel this will only get better.
I got to ride it yesterday for a bit, and it finally feels as good as my stage 2, CR-570, 103.
Quote from: Durwood on March 10, 2017, 03:27:35 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 10, 2017, 12:31:33 PM
Quote from: Durwood on March 10, 2017, 09:24:39 AM
Quote from: Durwood on March 09, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Great work.
Looks clear at this level the cam was clearly in control of the curve. It will be interesting to see if the exhaust starts having a greater effect now with the bigger cam.
Can we see this run 26 on a graph with run 9
Thanks
Will do Eric.
Here you go.
[attach=0]
Thanks
It does show a nice gain for a stage two set up.
1 hp per cubic inch without pulling the heads will keep many guys happy with this alone.
Agreed, and as other exhaust systems and mufflers are tested I feel this will only get better.
I got to ride it yesterday for a bit, and it finally feels as good as my stage 2, CR-570, 103.
Speaking of that stage two 103, I was just looking at the dyno sheets from your 57 cam and the CR-570. How about posting up the graph showing that CR-570, 103 run on top of this run 26 of the 107 with the CR-450
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 10, 2017, 03:59:51 PM
Quote from: Durwood on March 10, 2017, 03:27:35 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 10, 2017, 12:31:33 PM
Quote from: Durwood on March 10, 2017, 09:24:39 AM
Quote from: Durwood on March 09, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2017, 11:58:49 AM
Great work.
Looks clear at this level the cam was clearly in control of the curve. It will be interesting to see if the exhaust starts having a greater effect now with the bigger cam.
Can we see this run 26 on a graph with run 9
Thanks
Will do Eric.
Here you go.
[attach=0]
Thanks
It does show a nice gain for a stage two set up.
1 hp per cubic inch without pulling the heads will keep many guys happy with this alone.
Agreed, and as other exhaust systems and mufflers are tested I feel this will only get better.
I got to ride it yesterday for a bit, and it finally feels as good as my stage 2, CR-570, 103.
Speaking of that stage two 103, I was just looking at the dyno sheets from your 57 cam and the CR-570. How about posting up the graph showing that CR-570, 103 run on top of this run 26 of the 107 with the CR-450
Here you go.
[attach=0]
:up: :up:
Thanks for all the attention to detail on this and for catering to my requests.
This is just great info to have access to.
I just ordered one of these for the shop mule and there is another cam coming from Cycle-Rama as well. I am really looking forward to testing this D&D Billet Cat :teeth:
[attach=0]
Thanks for all the testing and experiments ... .. How the hell do you get any work done... Lol... Just kidding. That's a beautiful pipe by the way... Almost mistook it for a ProPipe at a quick glance.... Keep up the good work Darren... Much appreciated !!! :up: :up:
:party:
This thread is a nice break form the guys racing their engine simulators.
Quote from: lucasg on March 29, 2017, 06:01:36 PM
Thanks for all the testing and experiments ... .. How the hell do you get any work done... Lol... Just kidding. That's a beautiful pipe by the way... Almost mistook it for a ProPipe at a quick glance.... Keep up the good work Darren... Much appreciated !!! :up: :up:
:agree:
Do you still have a FM head-pipe coming that you'll be testing?
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on March 30, 2017, 07:19:56 AM
Do you still have a FM head-pipe coming that you'll be testing?
K.
Jamie is filling all of the pre-orders first, then I will be getting one.
Hmmm,.....interesting 103 vs 107 overlay. I'm thinking if that 103 was bumped up to 107 (you know, 107 vs 107) things would be even more interesting. :potstir:
Quote from: NHBAGGER on April 03, 2017, 11:11:05 AM
Hmmm,.....interesting 103 vs 107 overlay. I'm thinking if that 103 was bumped up to 107 (you know, 107 vs 107) things would be even more interesting. :potstir:
Just take a look at the HP per CI or TQ per CI at any rpm and you already have a proper comparison.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 03, 2017, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: NHBAGGER on April 03, 2017, 11:11:05 AM
Hmmm,.....interesting 103 vs 107 overlay. I'm thinking if that 103 was bumped up to 107 (you know, 107 vs 107) things would be even more interesting. :potstir:
Just take a look at the HP per CI or TQ per CI at any rpm and you already have a proper comparison.
10-4
put some mildly ported heads on the 103 and she doesn't layover @ 4500 (where the stock heads start running out of air) then the M8's real advantage (killer headflow) is accounted for (a little bit) and it's a tie
Quote from: sfmichael on April 03, 2017, 07:21:33 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 03, 2017, 03:20:41 PM
Quote from: NHBAGGER on April 03, 2017, 11:11:05 AM
Hmmm,.....interesting 103 vs 107 overlay. I'm thinking if that 103 was bumped up to 107 (you know, 107 vs 107) things would be even more interesting. :potstir:
Just take a look at the HP per CI or TQ per CI at any rpm and you already have a proper comparison.
10-4
put some mildly ported heads on the 103 and she doesn't layover @ 4500 (where the stock heads start running out of air) then the M8's real advantage (killer headflow) is accounted for (a little bit) and it's a tie
The thing that calls out is at this point the Twin cam is making more HP per CI than the M-8 for over half the rpm range and in the last 1000 or so rpm where the M-8 makes more it is only .005 hp per CI. Given that HD states the M-8 flows 50 percent more than the Twin cam, HP/CFM of head flow for the Twin cam is way up there in comparison.
The Billet Cat is out for delivery today, it should be here by noon, and I am ready for it when it gets here.
[attach=0]
Then it will get this new prototype Cycle Rama 460 cam and another round of exhaust testing.
I would like to mention for those interested, that these Cycle Rama M8 cams have the stock size base circle.
[attach=0]
:up: :up: :up: :pop:
I am liking everything about the M8 so far(for the most part), but the dam shape of the cam cover makes my OCD go crazy!!!! lol..
I am excited for the results! Thanks for doing the testing.
Here's what the Billet Cat and a some tuning did for it.
[attach=0]
:up: :up: :up:
thanks for sharing! :up:
It looks good! :up:
Ray
Damn Daren, outstanding. You have helped a lot of people with your results. Huge gains for a relatively small outlay.
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Thanks, and will do on the overlay. I wish you were closer too, I could use a helping hand...Lol
Quote from: Deye76 on April 04, 2017, 04:57:01 PM
Damn Daren, outstanding. You have helped a lot of people with your results. Huge gains for a relatively small outlay.
Thanks John, the way I see it, if this helps someone make an informed decision, that's great! I will say this, that pipe is loud.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
:agree:
:beer: great results Daren :up: :up:
I took it for a 20 mile ride today, the pipe isn't as loud as I thought, actually really mild until the wick is lit, then she makes some noise.
The bike runs killer!! I am going to ride it at least this weekend, before I install the other cam.
I can't get the video to load here , but here's a link to it on Facebook, just scroll down, it's the last video posted.
https://www.facebook.com/Sheffer-Performance-HD-LLC-1544666332477222/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel (https://www.facebook.com/Sheffer-Performance-HD-LLC-1544666332477222/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel)
Quote from: TXCHOP on April 04, 2017, 12:46:52 PM
I am liking everything about the M8 so far(for the most part), but the dam shape of the cam cover makes my OCD go crazy!!!! lol..
I agree TChop. Something ain't right there with that cover! :wtf: lol
Keep the M8 data rolling wood!
:up: :up: :up:
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
Quote from: Durwood on April 04, 2017, 07:10:03 AM
Then it will get this new prototype Cycle Rama 460 cam and another round of exhaust testing.
I would like to mention for those interested, that these Cycle Rama M8 cams have the stock size base circle.
Are they both direct bolt-ins? No spring upgrade or anything else needed??
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on April 06, 2017, 10:05:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on April 04, 2017, 07:10:03 AM
Then it will get this new prototype Cycle Rama 460 cam and another round of exhaust testing.
I would like to mention for those interested, that these Cycle Rama M8 cams have the stock size base circle.
Are they both direct bolt-ins? No spring upgrade or anything else needed??
K.
Direct bolt in. I have yet to test the 460 but that's coming real soon.
Both of these are prototype's, none available for sale as of yet.
Cams will be available once all of the testing is completed and the all the tweaks are made, then Wes will give the nod on a final production grind.
I have to say that I am very humbled to be involved in this project.
This is the best, and most informative conversation on any of the harley forums. thanks for sharing so much information. you are the man. dvr
Quote from: dsvracer on April 09, 2017, 05:06:07 AM
This is the best, and most informative conversation on any of the harley forums. thanks for sharing so much information. you are the man. dvr
:agree:
Quote from: Durwood on April 06, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
The additional hp in the upper rpm does not surprise me but the improved low end tq from a better flowing pipe says a lot about the over all design. I only wish we could have had this pipe on with the stock cams, it may have shown more low end there as well. With the pipe change we see the power peak 560 rpm sooner compared to the de-cat pipe so we may well be out of cam again.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 09, 2017, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Durwood on April 06, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
The additional hp in the upper rpm does not surprise me but the improved low end tq from a better flowing pipe says a lot about the over all design. I only wish we could have had this pipe on with the stock cams, it may have shown more low end there as well. With the pipe change we see the power peak 560 rpm sooner compared to the de-cat pipe so we may well be out of cam again.
Stock cam and Billet cat are still possible.
Sometimes you have to step back to truly see where you are, and where you are going. Herko calls it discipline.
We are also seeing the peak torque move to the left nearly 1000 rpm with the current configuration over the de-cat and the SE mufflers.
Out of cam? Possibly, I have been thinking valve springs, just a thought to ponder.
Dan Vance, thanks for your conformation, it is very much appreciated, these Milwaukee Eight's are a different animal for sure and my goal is to be ahead of the curve when they are out of warranty and to have the "go to" cam for a stage 2 107.
Quote from: Durwood on April 09, 2017, 06:40:33 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 09, 2017, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Durwood on April 06, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
The additional hp in the upper rpm does not surprise me but the improved low end tq from a better flowing pipe says a lot about the over all design. I only wish we could have had this pipe on with the stock cams, it may have shown more low end there as well. With the pipe change we see the power peak 560 rpm sooner compared to the de-cat pipe so we may well be out of cam again.
Stock cam and Billet cat are still possible.
Sometimes you have to step back to truly see where you are, and where you are going. Herko calls it discipline.
We are also seeing the peak torque move to the left nearly 1000 rpm with the current configuration over the de-cat and the SE mufflers.
Out of cam? Possibly, I have been thinking valve springs, just a thought to ponder.
Dan Vance, thanks for your conformation, it is very much appreciated, these Milwaukee Eight's are a different animal for sure and my goal is to be ahead of the curve when they are out of warranty and to have the "go to" cam for a stage 2 107.
I mentioned the early tq in the first sentence, what about the difference in the two exhausts do you attribute the torque to?
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 09, 2017, 07:11:49 PM
Quote from: Durwood on April 09, 2017, 06:40:33 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 09, 2017, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Durwood on April 06, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
The additional hp in the upper rpm does not surprise me but the improved low end tq from a better flowing pipe says a lot about the over all design. I only wish we could have had this pipe on with the stock cams, it may have shown more low end there as well. With the pipe change we see the power peak 560 rpm sooner compared to the de-cat pipe so we may well be out of cam again.
Stock cam and Billet cat are still possible.
Sometimes you have to step back to truly see where you are, and where you are going. Herko calls it discipline.
We are also seeing the peak torque move to the left nearly 1000 rpm with the current configuration over the de-cat and the SE mufflers.
Out of cam? Possibly, I have been thinking valve springs, just a thought to ponder.
Dan Vance, thanks for your conformation, it is very much appreciated, these Milwaukee Eight's are a different animal for sure and my goal is to be ahead of the curve when they are out of warranty and to have the "go to" cam for a stage 2 107.
I mentioned the early tq in the first sentence, what about the difference in the two exhausts do you attribute the torque to?
Primary tube length. I have spoken with different exhaust designers and they are seeing the same thing on the M8.
Dunwood, can you elaborate?
Quote from: Durwood on April 10, 2017, 04:22:35 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 09, 2017, 07:11:49 PM
Quote from: Durwood on April 09, 2017, 06:40:33 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 09, 2017, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: Durwood on April 06, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
The additional hp in the upper rpm does not surprise me but the improved low end tq from a better flowing pipe says a lot about the over all design. I only wish we could have had this pipe on with the stock cams, it may have shown more low end there as well. With the pipe change we see the power peak 560 rpm sooner compared to the de-cat pipe so we may well be out of cam again.
Stock cam and Billet cat are still possible.
Sometimes you have to step back to truly see where you are, and where you are going. Herko calls it discipline.
We are also seeing the peak torque move to the left nearly 1000 rpm with the current configuration over the de-cat and the SE mufflers.
Out of cam? Possibly, I have been thinking valve springs, just a thought to ponder.
Dan Vance, thanks for your conformation, it is very much appreciated, these Milwaukee Eight's are a different animal for sure and my goal is to be ahead of the curve when they are out of warranty and to have the "go to" cam for a stage 2 107.
I mentioned the early tq in the first sentence, what about the difference in the two exhausts do you attribute the torque to?
Primary tube length. I have spoken with different exhaust designers and they are seeing the same thing on the M8.
Interesting, I will have to go back and look over the intake to exhaust flow/velocity ratios and see how they compare to the Twin cam. With this quality of base runs I bet some simulator modeling would now be useful.
Thanks again.
No simulator needed, just more data, and parts.....Lol
Simulators run on data and parts, otherwise they just another computer game.
Quote from: Durwood on April 06, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 04, 2017, 05:44:46 PM
Your the man :up: :up:
Man did that pipe flatten the tq curve, talk about power every where.
How about putting this latest run on the graph with the other runs in post #89.
I kind of wish I was closer to your shop, I miss all this testing on the new stuff.
Thanks
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
Wow that`s amazing seeing max torque so low with the exhaust and almost flat right to the end. Thats got to be a fun motor.
I know it is the busy season and testing comes second to making a living but when you get back to this thread could we get a CCP reading for the CR cam in this last combination?
Thanks
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 28, 2017, 02:06:21 AM
I know it is the busy season and testing comes second to making a living but when you get back to this thread could we get a CCP reading for the CR cam in this last combination?
Thanks
CCP currently is 202/202 with the CR-450 cam, it was 215/215 stock. I agree with your thoughts on keeping the CCP up to really see the benefit of the 4 valve, dual plug heads with a good cam profile.
After the cam/exhaust tests are completed, even though a stage 2 is my favorite and best bang for the buck, the heads will be next.
We are leaving it 107", with porting and compression bump, via CC'ing the chambers to obtain the desired CCP.
I am installing another Cycle-Rama prototype cam this weekend, the CR-460. Early results are really good, I am looking forward to trying to repeat them on my dyno.
Daren
I know I'm really grateful for the testing you're doing, Daren. I have all intentions to keep mine a 107", but want the best bang possible when I add a camshaft & full exhaust to the mix.
TIA,
K.
The CR-460 is in, adjust the valves, install the pipe and AC, then to the dyno.
[attach=0]
Here's a sneak peak at a Cycle-Rama M8 head.
[attach=0]
:smilep:
Fantastic and very interesting work you are doing .
Thanks ,this is an interesting project to follow .
Its a pity that Harley will not let us "improve" our 2017 models .
Quote from: saafrican on April 29, 2017, 07:48:05 PM
Its a pity that Harley will not let us "improve" our 2017 models .
Harley is not stopping you from doing what ever you want to your motorcycle. The are just refusing to warranty it if there is a problem on a modified motorcycle, which seems reasonable to me. I have never understood why HD would allow a rider to swap out exhaust and air clearer and retune the bike and still honor warranty.
Quote from: Durwood on April 29, 2017, 11:54:04 AM
Here's a sneak peak at a Cycle-Rama M8 head.
those exhaust studs look to be the business
Quote from: PoorUB on April 29, 2017, 08:43:30 PM
Quote from: saafrican on April 29, 2017, 07:48:05 PM
Its a pity that Harley will not let us "improve" our 2017 models .
Harley is not stopping you from doing what ever you want to your motorcycle. The are just refusing to warranty it if there is a problem on a modified motorcycle, which seems reasonable to me. I have never understood why HD would allow a rider to swap out exhaust and air clearer and retune the bike and still honor warranty.
I agree and its no different than its ever been. Performance parts and aftermarket tuners habe always voided the warranty
With respect for others thoughts and opinions, hate to see this great tech thread side tracked with the same old things already beat to death in many other threads.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 30, 2017, 05:12:25 AM
With respect for others thoughts and opinions, hate to see this great tech thread side tracked with the same old things already beat to death in many other threads.
Agreed.
This thread needs to live on.
A lot of very useful info so far with a continuance in the works.
Quote from: Herko on April 30, 2017, 05:20:44 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on April 30, 2017, 05:12:25 AM
With respect for others thoughts and opinions, hate to see this great tech thread side tracked with the same old things already beat to death in many other threads.
Agreed.
This thread needs to live on.
A lot of very useful info so far with a continuance in the works.
:agree: X2
carry on Daren! :up:
Ray
Just a heads up Darren- I've had a couple reports of head bolts failing after a few R&Rs, where I never had a head bolt failure on any TC motor- don't remember many on evos, either. On and off once may be fine, but multiple swaps ( testing different bores, swapping cranks, CNC heads, etc) resulted in head bolt homicide. I believe HD is now including new head bolts in the stage 4 kits.
.
The 117 kits use MLS head gaskets, so I use Cometic procedure.
Quote from: rigidthumper on April 30, 2017, 08:16:54 AM
The 117 kits use MLS head gaskets, so I use Cometic procedure.
Think I've done my last incremental torgue sequence. Recently worked on a rusty bitch 2000 RG. You know the ones where they creek while torquing regardless of lube used. No way in hell all four studs are at the same torque but it seems to run fine and no head gasket issues. Next time X torque and 90 degrees for a more uniform stretch on the studs.This has been proven over and over to be more exacting. Gasket type matters a rat's so I really don't understand why Cometic feels the old school method is better. :idunno:
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on April 30, 2017, 10:46:53 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on April 30, 2017, 08:16:54 AM
The 117 kits use MLS head gaskets, so I use Cometic procedure.
Think I've done my last incremental torgue sequence. Recently worked on a rusty bitch 2000 RG. You know the ones where they creek while torquing regardless of lube used. No way in hell all four studs are at the same torque but it seems to run fine and no head gasket issues. Next time X torque and 90 degrees for a more uniform stretch on the studs.This has been proven over and over to be more exacting. Gasket type matters a rat's so I really don't understand why Cometic feels the old school method is better. :idunno:
Ron
On the Cometic procedure, mark the head bolts at the 14 ft lb step, marks will end up a little pass 90 degrees @42 ft lbs, gives you a visual of whats going on, and if torque is reached before it should comparing rotation of all the head bolts.
Robin, I appreciate your input. :up:
If the rest of you guys want to talk about head gasket procedures please start another thread.
Thanks Daren
As I thought, we picked up on the left and lost a couple on the right. I am in the process of swapping pipes right now, took a break for a sandwich. Lol.
[attach=0]
Exhaust change with the 460, here's where it landed.
[attach=0]
I like that trace on post 148, over 110 lbs-ft from 2200 to 5100.
That would be one fun scooter.
What pipe was that?
Quote from: K4FXD on May 02, 2017, 03:18:25 PM
I like that trace on post 148, over 110 lbs-ft from 2200 to 5100.
That would be one fun scooter.
What pipe was that?
That is with the D&D Billet Cat 2>1.
Outstanding thread Durawood Thanks
That Billet Cat looks good with that cam. It wasn't very impressive on a stock bike.
Quote from: Durwood on May 02, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
As I thought, we picked up on the left and lost a couple on the right. I am in the process of swapping pipes right now, took a break for a sandwich. Lol.
[attach=0]
Nice work
Could we see runfile 10 from post 105 on the graph with runfile 21 from post 148?
Did you get a CCP for the 460 cams?
Without giving the cam specs could you give us an indication of the difference between the 450 and 460?
Is it .010 more lift? how many more degs. duration or degrees difference in lobe CL or LSA
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 03, 2017, 07:18:50 PM
Quote from: Durwood on May 02, 2017, 11:30:30 AM
As I thought, we picked up on the left and lost a couple on the right. I am in the process of swapping pipes right now, took a break for a sandwich. Lol.
[attach=0]
Nice work
Could we see runfile 10 from post 105 on the graph with runfile 21 from post 148?
Did you get a CCP for the 460 cams?
Without giving the cam specs could you give us an indication of the difference between the 450 and 460?
Is it .010 more lift? how many more degs. duration or degrees difference in lobe CL or LSA
I will get those runfile's laid over for you soon, I haven't checked ccp yet, my remote starter switch died and I have a new one on the way. No more junk parts store stuff.
I can't get into details on the cam specs, as I gave my word, but besides the .010 more lift, the 460 is a tad shorter than the 450 everywhere.
Here's what it did with the de-catted head pipe and 2" baffles installed in my stock mufflers by Fullsac Performance.
[attach=0]
Thanks for the post and I totally understand on the cam specs, no disclosure is an important part of RnD, it's great you can share what you do. I had pretty much figured on the cams but wanted to confirm my instincts.
look forward the the rest when you get the chance.
Here you go Eric.
[attach=0]
That's a heck of a torque curve, or should I say torque line :up:
Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine.
Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.
It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine.
Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.
It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far.
There is another grind, the CR-521, he designed it with more cubes and compression in mind.
Our main goal is to have the best available cam for a stage 2 package in a 107" platform. Add an exhaust, AC, and tune.
What we need more than anything at the moment is a muffler designed around performance instead of looks or sound. Whoever comes up with the M8 Mellow will make a killing.
So far the Fullsac Performance 2" baffles have the best balance of sound and performance of any I have tried to date.
ALL of the available off the shelf mufflers with the exception of the SE Street Cannon's that I have tried, the baffles are too large to pop the torque up where I want it, but the SE offering is stock type quiet.
Thanks for the support.
Daren
Quote from: Durwood on May 04, 2017, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine.
Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.
It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far.
There is another grind, the CR-521, he designed it with more cubes and compression in mind.
Our main goal is to have the best available cam for a stage 2 package in a 107" platform. Add an exhaust, AC, and tune.
What we need more than anything at the moment is a muffler designed around performance instead of looks or sound. Whoever comes up with the M8 Mellow will make a killing.
So far the Fullsac Performance 2" baffles have the best balance of sound and performance of any I have tried to date.
ALL of the available off the shelf mufflers with the exception of the SE Street Cannon's that I have tried, the baffles are too large to pop the torque up where I want it, but the SE offering is stock type quiet.
Thanks for the support.
Daren
I agree with your thoughts on the best stage two possible. I think even with a good exhaust the limiting factor will be the static compression that EPA engines have come with for the last 30 years. With stock compression you reach the point where you have to choose between more early torque or more hp regardless of the cylinder head flow.
On the subject of exhaust systems, do they have M-8 E mufflers so that tuning them is an option during cam testing?
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 06:58:32 PM
Quote from: Durwood on May 04, 2017, 05:09:44 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 04, 2017, 04:05:17 PM
Thanks for the graph
This brings me back to post #120 where after seeing the D&D graph I questioned if the 450 was running out of cam. A cam design move in the opposite direction of the 450 to 460 may yield some additional HP above 5100 rpm but probably with small losses in the very early rpm tq. If a little compression was added or more CI's then a new cam with opposite timing would really shine.
Lots of guys out there doing head work and yet we do not see any signs of anyone reaching the power potential of the stock flow yet. I just looked at George's graph on the other site of the 107 he added the 114 kit with his heads,cams, and 62mm TB and the numbers are a valiant first effort but for all the flow that was added it doesn't make enough power to use the flow of the stock heads.
It will be interesting to see who will figure these out first, for my money you guys are on the right track so far.
There is another grind, the CR-521, he designed it with more cubes and compression in mind.
Our main goal is to have the best available cam for a stage 2 package in a 107" platform. Add an exhaust, AC, and tune.
What we need more than anything at the moment is a muffler designed around performance instead of looks or sound. Whoever comes up with the M8 Mellow will make a killing.
So far the Fullsac Performance 2" baffles have the best balance of sound and performance of any I have tried to date.
ALL of the available off the shelf mufflers with the exception of the SE Street Cannon's that I have tried, the baffles are too large to pop the torque up where I want it, but the SE offering is stock type quiet.
Thanks for the support.
Daren
I agree with your thoughts on the best stage two possible. I think even with a good exhaust the limiting factor will be the static compression that EPA engines have come with for the last 30 years. With stock compression you reach the point where you have to choose between more early torque or more hp regardless of the cylinder head flow.
On the subject of exhaust systems, do they have M-8 E mufflers so that tuning them is an option during cam testing?
Super Trapp has disc mufflers for the M8, and that would be an option for maximization, but what I would like to see is a production, non-disc muffler that has the balance of sound and performance without the additional steps during the tuning process.
Someone will do it, just a matter of time.
:up:
Cycle solutions inc. have recently tested the Tman PS200 M8 cam. TR's first level bolt in cam. The results Can be seen on facebook . It's impressive considering it's straight in to a 107.
Just sayin.
I don't have facebook, anyone have a link to the graph page?
Got thanks
https://www.facebook.com/100157792180/photos/a.10150110795352181.281640.100157792180/10154344684022181/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/100157792180/photos/a.10150110795352181.281640.100157792180/10154344684022181/?type=3&theater)
Interesting comparison on the M8-200PS vs. the stock cam.
Per graph details, was the +18/+29 run performed in a different gear vs. the stock cam run?
Looking at the gear ratio it sure looks like the old 5th gear 6th gear switch.
Also no mention if any changes to the air cleaner or exhaust system.
Quote
Looking at the gear ratio it sure looks like the old 5th gear 6th gear switch.
Yep. Well, horsepower does sell parts.
May be an honest oversight.
Oversight or not that is what makes this thread right here and all that are involved with it sooo valuable. High quality testing and reporting that gives data that can be counted on.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 14, 2017, 08:43:25 AM
Oversight or not that is what makes this thread right here and all that are involved with it sooo valuable. High quality testing and reporting that gives data that can be counted on.
Agreed.
Honest reporting and comparative data.
Referencing this particular M8-200PS test, I would have thought that with the experience of the two parties involved, they would have questioned and verified the percentage size of the FB-posted gain considering the level/parts/work involved??
Page one of this thread shows what a 107 M8 can do in Stage 1 configuration.
Quote from: Herko on May 14, 2017, 07:57:37 AM
Interesting comparison on the M8-200PS vs. the stock cam.
Per graph details, was the +18/+29 run performed in a different gear vs. the stock cam run?
Also, was the exhaust & intake changed between runs, or is this a true cam only change, with stock intake, header pipe and mufflers?
Quote from: Herko on May 14, 2017, 08:59:36 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 14, 2017, 08:43:25 AM
Oversight or not that is what makes this thread right here and all that are involved with it sooo valuable. High quality testing and reporting that gives data that can be counted on.
Agreed.
Honest reporting and comparative data.
Referencing this particular M8-200PS test, I would have thought that with the experience of the two parties involved, they would have questioned and verified the percentage size of the FB-posted gain considering the level/parts/work involved??
Page one of this thread shows what a 107 M8 can do in Stage 1 configuration.
I would have thought they would have re run the base line on that day as well The run files are like 8 months apart. , and I agree it was run in two different gears as well
Mr Durwood, based on your extensive testing, what was your cam of choice for the M8 Stage 2.? And again, were the CR cams bolt in ( as in' stock pushrods')?.
Thanks for the good work.
Quote from: Sunny Jim on May 27, 2017, 06:54:55 AM
Mr Durwood, based on your extensive testing, what was your cam of choice for the M8 Stage 2.? And again, were the CR cams bolt in ( as in' stock pushrods')?.
Thanks for the good work.
For a stage 2, I like the CR460 the best and yes, these are bolt in cams with stock base circle so stock push rod's should work, no problem.
I used adjustable ones to speed up the testing process.
I came to Indianapolis for the 500 and had a few days to spare so I couldn't resist heading down Durwood's way and saying hello. He's about 200 miles south of Indy.
We shook hands, said hello, and exchanged a few words...and then he pointed to his Road Glide and said "you gotta ride that thing". Well you don't have to ask me twice... :wink:
We warmed it up (it started very nicely and ran smooth and without issue cold) and after it built a little heat, I was off.
If choosing one word to describe it's performance, the word that comes to mind is impressive. The acceleration is instantaneous and strong. Very crisp right off the bottom and it pulls hard until you decide to shift. Yes, I was very impressed...to say the least. And having worked at a dealer for about a year, I've ridden a LOT of bikes - stock and modified.
I know a lot has to do with the fact that this one has been tuned to a gnat's ass but even the best tuning won't make power like this. Nothing special on the exhaust side of things - stock headpipe and re-cored stock mufflers. A good air cleaner to be sure. But the cam is the big player here...and the dialed-in tune.
We had lunch at a great local pizza joint and shot the sh*t some more...and then I ordered me some cams and left. :smiled:
Daren,
Any comparison thoughts between the 460 cam and the stock decat headpipe exhaust setup verses the D&D exhaust? Could you tell any difference in riding the bike versus what the dyno numbers show?
TIA,
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on June 05, 2017, 12:54:06 PM
Daren,
Any comparison thoughts between the 460 cam and the stock decat headpipe exhaust setup verses the D&D exhaust? Could you tell any difference in riding the bike versus what the dyno numbers show?
TIA,
K.
I haven't logged enough miles with the billet cat to give a real good comparison of seat of the pants, I tuned it with the BC, then swapped the pipes to get a good dyno comparison.
My wife and I went on a two up, loaded, 200 mile ride in it's current configuration this past Sunday through some twisty roads in southern Indiana and it was an absolute pleasure to ride, going into tight curves letting the rpm's drop to 1500 rpm in 4th, then I intentionally stayed in 4th and slow rolled the throttle from there, and it was immediately on the cam and into the next curve.
Never a complaint from the engine bay.
Daren,
If you don't mind me asking.....how far from Louisville are you?
Swapped out mufflers yesterday and re-tuned the bike, here it is with the Screamin Eagle Street Cannon's, de-cat head pipe, and Cycle-Rama 460 cam.
[attach=0]
that is crazy :smileo: ....it builds the torque practically right off idle :bike:
I'm excited to put the Cyclerama cams in my bike :up:
Daren,
What kind of head & engine temps. are you seeing on your bike while riding & testing?
TIA,
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 21, 2017, 08:14:22 AM
Daren,
What kind of head & engine temps. are you seeing on your bike while riding & testing?
TIA,
K.
I run it to 280 ET on the dyno, but have seen higher temps on the road.
With the temp sensor in the rear head now, like a Sportster higher temp readings will be seen, but in fact the Milwaukee Eight is running at very similar temps as it's predecessor, just reads higher.
Quote from: Durwood on July 21, 2017, 01:14:59 PM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 21, 2017, 08:14:22 AM
Daren,
What kind of head & engine temps. are you seeing on your bike while riding & testing?
TIA,
K.
I run it to 280 ET on the dyno, but have seen higher temps on the road.
I have noticed the same on my M8 ( Highway work only) see temps of 315* on the PV
With the temp sensor in the rear head now, like a Sportster higher temp readings will be seen, but in fact the Milwaukee Eight is running at very similar temps as it's predecessor, just reads higher.
Bob, that is in the normal range.
Well Darren, I bit the bullet and ordered a CR460 from Wes. It's on it's way to Western Australia. Let's put this baby to the test.
Quote from: Sunny Jim on August 11, 2017, 07:01:21 AM
Well Darren, I bit the bullet and ordered a CR460 from Wes. It's on it's way to Western Australia. Let's put this baby to the test.
:up: :up:
Any chance you can or will test tune with a Pro Pipe? I love that 2 into 1 look!
Thanks for sharing your info! Look forwards to reading new posts on this thread!
Quote from: mark61 on September 07, 2017, 11:24:01 PM
Any chance you can or will test tune with a Pro Pipe? I love that 2 into 1 look!
Thanks for sharing your info! Look forwards to reading new posts on this thread!
Unless someone brings a bike in with a pro-pipe, not likely, but I did test the D&D Billet Cat, and it did very well.
Next testing on the horizon for the stage 2, CR-460, 107" shop bike is air cleaners, once I get caught up on my work.
Daren
Daren, I've been running the V&H power pipe with the Rhinehart 4" muffs. I swap the Rhineharts from the SE muffs. If I go back to the SE muffs do you think it'll raise the left side? I'm running the Woods 222.
The thing feels like a Twinke
I would change the cam, mufflers and re-tune, the 222 doesn't hit early enough for me.
S&S just recently released a head pipe for the Milwaukee Eight that I will be testing soon. The M8 Power Tune Dual head pipe with it's 1.750" outlets on both sides allow for use of any slip on from 1995-2016, this opens up a ton of possibilities as far as muffler selection.
https://www.sscycle.com/products/sspower-tune-duals-for-2017-18-m8-fl-models---chrome/ (https://www.sscycle.com/products/sspower-tune-duals-for-2017-18-m8-fl-models---chrome/)
If you have any other questions shoot me a pm.
Every 222 hits way late in my opinion . . The specs on that cam are huge . Think a bit smaller than the SE 515 and larger than the 498. What looks good for selling parts does not always feel as good on the street
Thanks a lot guys!
Daren, looking forward to the testing. PM sent. I really don't like the SEs, there to quiet for me. But I'll use them for the power they produce.
Really appreciate all your hard work Darren on the R & D with the different combinations you're testing on the new M8 bikes. Have you had a chance to test any of the new S&S mufflers such as the MK45, Eldorado, Grand Nationals ? I've listened to some sound clips and gotta say, they sound pretty darn good, especially the MK45's.
Keep up the good work sir... :up:
Quote from: flh canuck on February 18, 2017, 10:58:24 AM
I am not really happy to see these great results you are getting with the new M8 engine.
I road tested one a few months back and tried really hard not to be impressed by the smoothness and power right out of the box.
Now I am trying really hard to not trade my present ride in on a new 2017.
The results of your testing are doing nothing to help my resolve .... :SM:
Resolve officially broken.... Rode my brand new 2018 Ultra Limited home last week. Absolutely loving the power and torque of this motor right out of the box. Of course after viewing this thread, a simple cam change, header d-cat and power vision with dyno tune is likely in my future.... I am going to see how long I can leave this machine stock but suspect it will be like the time I tried to stop drinking beer.... :wink:
Ya? How did that 10 minutes go?
"Any comparison thoughts between the 460 cam and the stock decat headpipe exhaust setup verses the D&D exhaust? Could you tell any difference in riding the bike versus what the dyno numbers show?"
Kevin, I just bolted the Billet Cat back on, taking a ride this weekend and will let you know about the SOP feel compared to the 2-1-2 exhaust I have been running.
Thank you Daren for sharing your test results.
I am re-launching JD's cycle works in eastern PA and I look forward to doing a lot of research with the M8. This is very informative information and will be a helpful resource for our new journey with these new motors.
Dave
Quote from: Jds on November 24, 2017, 01:44:20 PM
Thank you Daren for sharing your test results.
I am re-launching JD's cycle works in eastern PA and I look forward to doing a lot of research with the M8. This is very informative information and will be a helpful resource for our new journey with these new motors.
Dave
:up: :up: :up:
As I mentioned when we got to stage 2 the AC element was removed as it was holding back the power, I only had the SE stage one at the time and not much available in aftermarket air cleaners.
But since, there have been some introduced to the market. I would still like to try a Heavy breather.
Here are the results of the air cleaner testing for those that are interested.
Click on graph then maximize for full size image.
[attach=0]
Quote from: NCTURBOS on June 05, 2017, 12:54:06 PM
Daren,
Any comparison thoughts between the 460 cam and the stock decat headpipe exhaust setup verses the D&D exhaust? Could you tell any difference in riding the bike versus what the dyno numbers show?
TIA,
K.
I put 200 miles on it yesterday with the D&D and I could feel the low end difference, but on the 4 lane the noise was pretty bad. I am going to try a Rush Wrath muffler on it to see if that will tame it down some.
He's baaaack.
Post 200 is a great one, looks like we are still lacking a really good non restrictive AC for the M8 at this level. I wonder how bad they are hold back the bigger M8 builds.
What cam, pipe, and other mods to the engine at the time of the AC testing?
Almost forgot
GREAT Job thanks for posting.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:01:01 AM
He's baaaack.
Post 200 is a great one, looks like we are still lacking a really good non restrictive AC for the M8 at this level. I wonder how bad they are hold back the bigger M8 builds.
What cam, pipe, and other mods to the engine at the time of the AC testing?
Almost forgot
GREAT Job thanks for posting.
Finally got a chance to play a little.
During this testing it was with the de-cat head pipe, Fullsac 2" cores and CR-460.
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 07:09:30 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:01:01 AM
He's baaaack.
Post 200 is a great one, looks like we are still lacking a really good non restrictive AC for the M8 at this level. I wonder how bad they are hold back the bigger M8 builds.
What cam, pipe, and other mods to the engine at the time of the AC testing?
Almost forgot
GREAT Job thanks for posting.
Finally got a chance to play a little.
During this testing it was with the de-cat head pipe, Fullsac 2" cores and CR-460.
:up:
You may want to try the SE M8 Heavy breather #29400264 to see how it compares.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:17:24 AM
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 07:09:30 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:01:01 AM
He's baaaack.
Post 200 is a great one, looks like we are still lacking a really good non restrictive AC for the M8 at this level. I wonder how bad they are hold back the bigger M8 builds.
What cam, pipe, and other mods to the engine at the time of the AC testing?
Almost forgot
GREAT Job thanks for posting.
Finally got a chance to play a little.
During this testing it was with the de-cat head pipe, Fullsac 2" cores and CR-460.
:up:
You may want to try the SE M8 Heavy breather #29400264 to see how it compares.
That's in the plan for down the road.
Durwood I see of talk about cr and tman cams but not a lot about Redshift. Is there a reason?
Quote from: Neon Moon on November 26, 2017, 11:49:34 AM
Durwood I see of talk about cr and tman cams but not a lot about Redshift. Is there a reason?
The only reason is that I haven't tried one yet.
Ok. Just put a set of 576s and 10.5 piston in my 110. Has Rush 7017HO head pipes and 2.5 big Louie slip ons really has stump pulling torque at low rpms.
Using Thunder Max tuner. Someday I will get it dynoed just to see where it's at. Enjoy reading your post.
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 06:52:04 AM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on June 05, 2017, 12:54:06 PM
Daren,
Any comparison thoughts between the 460 cam and the stock decat headpipe exhaust setup verses the D&D exhaust? Could you tell any difference in riding the bike versus what the dyno numbers show?
TIA,
K.
I put 200 miles on it yesterday with the D&D and I could feel the low end difference, but on the 4 lane the noise was pretty bad. I am going to try a Rush Wrath muffler on it to see if that will tame it down some.
Gotcha... I'm in the mood for a winter upgrade to mine, just not sure exactly on the exhaust. I know I only want to buy once, assuming the future might hold for more!
If you have some extra coin laying around for air cleaner testing: https://tmanperformance.com/product/t-man-no-loss-air-cleaner/
;) :D
Thanks,
K.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on November 27, 2017, 12:57:47 PM
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 06:52:04 AM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on June 05, 2017, 12:54:06 PM
Daren,
Any comparison thoughts between the 460 cam and the stock decat headpipe exhaust setup verses the D&D exhaust? Could you tell any difference in riding the bike versus what the dyno numbers show?
TIA,
K.
I put 200 miles on it yesterday with the D&D and I could feel the low end difference, but on the 4 lane the noise was pretty bad. I am going to try a Rush Wrath muffler on it to see if that will tame it down some.
Gotcha... I'm in the mood for a winter upgrade to mine, just not sure exactly on the exhaust. I know I only want to buy once, assuming the future might hold for more!
If you have some extra coin laying around for air cleaner testing: https://tmanperformance.com/product/t-man-no-loss-air-cleaner/
;) :D
Thanks,
K.
I've seen those but they are a little on the pricey side for me. :teeth:
Quote from: Durwood on November 27, 2017, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on November 27, 2017, 12:57:47 PM
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 06:52:04 AM
Quote from: NCTURBOS on June 05, 2017, 12:54:06 PM
Daren,
Any comparison thoughts between the 460 cam and the stock decat headpipe exhaust setup verses the D&D exhaust? Could you tell any difference in riding the bike versus what the dyno numbers show?
TIA,
K.
I put 200 miles on it yesterday with the D&D and I could feel the low end difference, but on the 4 lane the noise was pretty bad. I am going to try a Rush Wrath muffler on it to see if that will tame it down some.
Gotcha... I'm in the mood for a winter upgrade to mine, just not sure exactly on the exhaust. I know I only want to buy once, assuming the future might hold for more!
If you have some extra coin laying around for air cleaner testing: https://tmanperformance.com/product/t-man-no-loss-air-cleaner/
;) :D
Thanks,
K.
I've seen those but they are a little on the pricey side for me. :teeth:
No price is too great in the pursuit of knowledge.
Oh, wait, I just saw the price.
Looks like a little less knowledge will be ok.
They must have painted over the gold plating. :hyst:
kk
looks like the air cleaner cover I fabricated for my Se Air filter... a cut off tool to the stock Harley Air cleaner and viola! guess I should etch my initials on it and sell 'em :hyst:
Looks like you'll also need the optional 3" Footboard Extension Kit. For $500, of course.
I put a Wrath muffler on the Billet Cat, it lost a little on the left, but it sure sounds different, we are getting close to the Twin Cam sound.
While I have the BC on the bike I am going to experiment with other baffles and muffler assemblies.
[attach=0]
:up: good info
smaller baffle (than 2.50) in the stock Billet Cat I assume?
Quote from: sfmichael on December 03, 2017, 02:52:10 PM
:up: good info
smaller baffle (than 2.50) in the stock Billet Cat I assume?
After further examination, the baffle in the Wrath muffler I tested is a 3.00" NOT 2.50".
I have a new 2.50" baffle here and it is in fact smaller than the one I tested...I apologize for the confusion, but I was told it was a 2.50" and should have verified prior to testing.
When time allows I will install the 2.50" baffle and retune.
Great job Darren , keep up the good work and thanks for your efforts. Have you ever done any testing with the newer Bassani Road Rage 2-1 pipes ?
Quote from: lucasg on December 05, 2017, 10:03:36 AM
Great job Darren , keep up the good work and thanks for your efforts. Have you ever done any testing with the newer Bassani Road Rage 2-1 pipes ?
Not as of yet.
Quote from: Durwood on December 04, 2017, 07:21:54 AM
Quote from: sfmichael on December 03, 2017, 02:52:10 PM
:up: good info
smaller baffle (than 2.50) in the stock Billet Cat I assume?
After further examination, the baffle in the Wrath muffler I tested is a 3.00" NOT 2.50".
I have a new 2.50" baffle here and it is in fact smaller than the one I tested...I apologize for the confusion, but I was told it was a 2.50" and should have verified prior to testing.
When time allows I will install the 2.50" baffle and retune.
thanks for the clarification - what size is in the BC?...it seems to work very well
Awesome stuff man , this is the stuff.
Do you think a small bump in compression would help or hinder the CR460/450 cams ?
Quote from: sfmichael on December 11, 2017, 07:29:03 AM
Quote from: Durwood on December 04, 2017, 07:21:54 AM
Quote from: sfmichael on December 03, 2017, 02:52:10 PM
:up: good info
smaller baffle (than 2.50) in the stock Billet Cat I assume?
After further examination, the baffle in the Wrath muffler I tested is a 3.00" NOT 2.50".
I have a new 2.50" baffle here and it is in fact smaller than the one I tested...I apologize for the confusion, but I was told it was a 2.50" and should have verified prior to testing.
When time allows I will install the 2.50" baffle and retune.
thanks for the clarification - what size is in the BC?...it seems to work very well
2.5" Best I can tell without pulling it out of the can.
Quote from: badcooky on December 17, 2017, 08:33:17 PM
Awesome stuff man , this is the stuff.
Do you think a small bump in compression would help or hinder the CR460/450 cams ?
Thanks..
A compression increase would help either cam, but I wouldn't pull heads for the sole purpose of raising the compression.
Awesome stuff man , this is the stuff.
Do you think a small bump in compression would help or hinder the CR460/450 cams ?
Thanks..
A compression increase would help either cam, but I wouldn't pull heads for the sole purpose of raising the compression.
No neither would I.
Awesome work mate.
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 09:14:50 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:17:24 AM
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 07:09:30 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:01:01 AM
He's baaaack.
Post 200 is a great one, looks like we are still lacking a really good non restrictive AC for the M8 at this level. I wonder how bad they are hold back the bigger M8 builds.
What cam, pipe, and other mods to the engine at the time of the AC testing?
Almost forgot
GREAT Job thanks for posting.
Finally got a chance to play a little.
During this testing it was with the de-cat head pipe, Fullsac 2" cores and CR-460.
:up:
You may want to try the SE M8 Heavy breather #29400264 to see how it compares.
That's in the plan for down the road.
Just a thought after looking at some other threads both here and in the dyno section I think testing a better TB and or manifold would be my next step. Just like the air cleaner, small changes to improve the intake tract will most likely give noticeable returns in HP. The stock head flow is clearly more than adequate at this level but is it flowing at 100% on the bike. I know many will feel that the stock TB is big enough but this is not about TB bore at the throttle plate it is about resistance to flow up stream of the port itself.
Thanks again for all your effort.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 12, 2018, 01:26:23 PM
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 09:14:50 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:17:24 AM
Quote from: Durwood on November 26, 2017, 07:09:30 AM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 26, 2017, 07:01:01 AM
He's baaaack.
Post 200 is a great one, looks like we are still lacking a really good non restrictive AC for the M8 at this level. I wonder how bad they are hold back the bigger M8 builds.
What cam, pipe, and other mods to the engine at the time of the AC testing?
Almost forgot
GREAT Job thanks for posting.
Finally got a chance to play a little.
During this testing it was with the de-cat head pipe, Fullsac 2" cores and CR-460.
:up:
You may want to try the SE M8 Heavy breather #29400264 to see how it compares.
That's in the plan for down the road.
Just a thought after looking at some other threads both here and in the dyno section I think testing a better TB and or manifold would be my next step. Just like the air cleaner, small changes to improve the intake tract will most likely give noticeable returns in HP. The stock head flow is clearly more than adequate at this level but is it flowing at 100% on the bike. I know many will feel that the stock TB is big enough but this is not about TB bore at the throttle plate it is about resistance to flow up stream of the port itself.
Thanks again for all your effort.
Intake manifold is already on the radar.
Quote from: Durwood on November 25, 2017, 06:02:53 AM
As I mentioned when we got to stage 2 the AC element was removed as it was holding back the power, I only had the SE stage one at the time and not much available in aftermarket air cleaners.
But since, there have been some introduced to the market. I would still like to try a Heavy breather.
Here are the results of the air cleaner testing for those that are interested.
Click on graph then maximize for full size image.
[attach=0]
Great work , thanks
re- air filters seems a lot of guys are just fitting K&N HD1717 to stock airbox for a stage 1 ( $50)
Seems to have more area than the SE stage 1 filter, wonder what that flows like ?
[/quote]
Great work , thanks
re- air filters seems a lot of guys are just fitting K&N HD1717 to stock airbox for a stage 1 ( $50)
Seems to have more area than the SE stage 1 filter, wonder what that flows like ?
[/quote]I personally haven't tested one. Sorry.
The heads flow amazing in stock form . Rick Ward who is a member on here has been CNC porting the 64 t/b and getting very nice gains there .. As all of these builds from other shops keep moving forward its going to be great data mining for sure. Where the exact point of needed head porting is where the larger t/b is 100% needed and not just that
But more so what gains or loss is going to be there with larger this or that..
We have a set of ported heads slated for a build this spring that are in the 365+ CFM range with some stock parts .. So that amount of flow is impressive . now add that to a very large bore engine say 134 what will this yield in honest real world numbers ...
Tons of guys in the HD side and several that are not are doing things for these new engines.. Its been very cool to speak with many of them and the results they are sharing are very impressive . Then you get the guys that have the contacts to make new bigger parts so to speak cylinders , design of the piston correctly . and producing something that has not been done..
A test I want to try is coming up if all goes well.. Piston dome shape is going to be something that in the past was not looked at but it showing on several builds that is can be an aid in making more power ..
Many new and exciting prodcuts coming to market . At least I think they are exciting :up:
What does any of that have to do with Darren's tests and thread?
Air cleaners on to t/b manifolds its in the previous posting that is all testing right ..
Durwood is using his bike as a step by step test mule.. manifolds in his posting . well whats next??!!.. You may not feel it has anything to do with .. your opinion.. :up:
Thread is not dead.
Additional informative testing is forthcoming.
Current focus of this thread (Daren/Durwood's thread) is on Stage 2 M8 107 builds.
His use of regimented testing procedures will continue.
:up: :up:
I did not mean for my manifold post to take this thread off topic. Thanks for all you do in testing and sharing the info in this thread.
1FSTRK, your posts bring value to the thread.
It's the me too, social media rambling type posts about non relevant items that detract from the thread's purpose.
The manifold test will fit the Stage 2 criteria of stopping short of pulling the heads. A Stage 2 plus maybe. But certainly not a Stage 3 or beyond.
Keith Would you be so kind as to delete all of my posts from this thread thank you .
On deck is testing of the M8 Heavy Breather.
Back to back comparison with the SE Stage 1 AC as depicted in reply 200 in this thread.
Hey Daren,
Have you seen the new S&S Sidewinder 2-1 exhaust? Any idea how it will perform with the CR460?
I like the looks of it better than the Billet Cat so I am leaning towards that one.
Quote from: Cagey on February 25, 2018, 09:43:07 AM
Hey Daren,
Have you seen the new S&S Sidewinder 2-1 exhaust? Any idea how it will perform with the CR460?
I like the looks of it better than the Billet Cat so I am leaning towards that one.
I have seen it, but only testing will tell us for sure as to it's effectiveness in that application..
Quote from: Durwood on February 25, 2018, 09:48:13 AM
Quote from: Cagey on February 25, 2018, 09:43:07 AM
Hey Daren,
Have you seen the new S&S Sidewinder 2-1 exhaust? Any idea how it will perform with the CR460?
I like the looks of it better than the Billet Cat so I am leaning towards that one.
I have seen it, but only testing will tell us for sure as to it's effectiveness in that application..
Sounds good. Trying to decide between that Sidewinder and Street Cannons with a Cat-less header. I haven't installed the SCs yet so I was curious. I only care about performance and not sound.
Thanks for all your testing by the way!
I got some time to do a little testing in the cam department, and here's what I ended up with.
Test done all in one day, and I thought I was going to be able to add the RS-468 to the list but time ran out on me, I am tuning it today.
[attach=0]
looks good D...thanks for sharing :up: :up: :up:
Here is the Redshift 468, it is now the leader in the sweet spot, I.E the left side of the graph.
This is a rowdy sounding cam...I like it!
[attach=0]
Here's the lay over of the two cams.
[attach=0]
Nice work Daren, you're going to corrupt me
[attach=0]
Click on graphs, then maximize for full size image.
:up: :up:
Great info, thanks for sharing. It does appear that we are seeing cam development is reaching it's limit with the engine in stock form. These cams clearly raise the area under the entire curve and I would bet if future grinds show significant gains on one side of the graph they will give some up on the other side to do it.
A+ effort to find the combinations that yield the best Stage 1 and stage 2 builds.
Thanks Eric. I agree on the cam development as well, the S&S 475 is a good example of what you said, it gives on the left but makes gains on the right as shown in Joe's latest dyno graph.
Some added compression and head work would really make that cam shine IMO.
Wes is going to do a set of heads for me when he gets caught up, and I may try them on the 107 with a new Cycle-Rama cam that will be available soon, before going bigger on the cubes.
R&D is fun, but sure does lighten the wallet..Lol.
nice work Daren! :up:
Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: Durwood on March 02, 2018, 12:38:58 PM
Here is the Redshift 468, it is now the leader in the sweet spot, I.E the left side of the graph.
This is a rowdy sounding cam...I like it!
[attach=0]
Very nice! I think I have my mind made up for this combination on my bike...
K.
Great work Daren, like the look of the RS468 in tests so far.
re- Joes 475 do you think the billet cat 2-1 would bring the left side up & hold on ?
Quote from: yobtaf103 on March 03, 2018, 02:07:30 PM
Great work Daren, like the look of the RS468 in tests so far.
re- Joes 475 do you think the billet cat 2-1 would bring the left side up & hold on ?
The Billet Cat could very well do just that, it has improved the left side of the graph on every other cam I have tried it on.
Only one way to find out. :teeth:
Very nice Daren. Just shows the great results that can be had when you spend the time to tune it and use a quality pipe. :up:
Quote from: Durwood on March 03, 2018, 07:28:08 AM
Thanks Eric. I agree on the cam development as well, the S&S 475 is a good example of what you said, it gives on the left but makes gains on the right as shown in Joe's latest dyno graph.
Some added compression and head work would really make that cam shine IMO.
Wes is going to do a set of heads for me when he gets caught up, and I may try them on the 107 with a new Cycle-Rama cam that will be available soon, before going bigger on the cubes.
R&D is fun, but sure does lighten the wallet..Lol.
This has long been the big question in the testing world because trying different cams back to back in an engine in totally stock form as you have shown will give you the best stage two bolt-in setup. It does not show what each cam is capable of doing with a particular head/port configuration on a given engine displacement when the compression is optimized. I have talked with Vic about this before and the best scenario IMHO is if the cam install is intended as a stepping stone to a later build then bolt it in and tune it. I ride with many people that have had more than one bike and have never gone beyond stage two so for them I say skip the heavier adjustable pushrods, and pull the heads to optimize the compression for that bolt in cam to get the most bang out of the total package. As explained in their video Zippers did a great job of studying the stock engine configuration and designing the cam to work with it's strong points and short comings.
Quote from: ZippersPerformance.com on March 05, 2018, 12:04:06 PM
Very nice Daren. Just shows the great results that can be had when you spend the time to tune it and use a quality pipe. :up:
Thank you..
HarleyTechTalk Forums » Technical Forums » Milwaukee-Eight » Post reply ( Re: Milwaukee Eight testing. )
Re: Milwaukee Eight testing.
Stopped by Sheffer Performance today and got an invitation to test ride the latest creative combo Daren has assembled on his M8.
Combination included the following:
Red shift 468 cam
D&D's Billet cat header
Rush wrath exhaust pipe 2.5" baffle
Heavy breather
Barnett Clutch springs
Stock heads
Full tank of gas - ha ha
Awesome combo in short form. The exhaust signature and cam lope was in my ears very similar to the SE 204 - a favorite of mine. Distinctive and strong.
To help move the exhaust front to back the D&D Billet cat craftily fitted with a Wrath exhaust pipe which was -not - obnoxious or over bearing when rolling through the Rpm's.
Throttle response was crisp and snappy - very responsive with excellent low speed manners. This combination pulls like a while not killing your ears.
With the Rush Wrath exhaust pipe one would be able to choose the baffle they would like - Daren had a 2.5" diameter installed and there may be plans for a 2.25" baffle. I would like to try the 2.25" baffle.
Bottom line - this combination is impressive. I have no idea what the dyno numbers are and frankly don't care to know. Damn thing is seriously impressive.
Final thoughts are: awesome through the gears, great manners in slow speed maneuvers, excellent exhaust note and most of all - sounds like a Harley.
For the record- I stopped by to talk about my 13 Road Glide Ultra tuning issue and a future project of installing a 114 or 117 in my M8. For me - I can confidently say the above combination would and will satisfy my touring bike requirements.
Billet cat and Wrath
Billet cat and Wrath
Greg, it was nice to put a face with a name, the next time your in town we will hit Turoni's for a pizza and a pitcher. :beer:
Did I just read that Darren has a Heavy breather, any testing with it yet?
Just saw the 468 dyno on page 10.
Very impressive curve however you can't ride paper.
Having rode the bike and then see the dyno sheet- I agree with what wrote.
It pulls like a ... Fright train and sounds awesome.
Note:
the dyno sheet identifies the breather as a Stealth AC with large element.
I have no idea who makes it.
My mistake - if it's not round it's just an ugly sucker in my book.
Quote from: woodreaux on April 20, 2018, 07:40:18 PM
HarleyTechTalk Forums » Technical Forums » Milwaukee-Eight » Post reply ( Re: Milwaukee Eight testing. )
Re: Milwaukee Eight testing.
Stopped by Sheffer Performance today and got an invitation to test ride the latest creative combo Daren has assembled on his M8.
Combination included the following:
Red shift 468 cam
D&D's Billet cat header
Rush wrath exhaust pipe 2.5" baffle
Heavy breather
Barnett Clutch springs
Stock heads
Full tank of gas - ha ha
Awesome combo in short form. The exhaust signature and cam lope was in my ears very similar to the SE 204 - a favorite of mine. Distinctive and strong.
To help move the exhaust front to back the D&D Billet cat craftily fitted with a Wrath exhaust pipe which was -not - obnoxious or over bearing when rolling through the Rpm's.
Throttle response was crisp and snappy - very responsive with excellent low speed manners. This combination pulls like a while not killing your ears.
With the Rush Wrath exhaust pipe one would be able to choose the baffle they would like - Daren had a 2.5" diameter installed and there may be plans for a 2.25" baffle. I would like to try the 2.25" baffle.
Bottom line - this combination is impressive. I have no idea what the dyno numbers are and frankly don't care to know. Damn thing is seriously impressive.
Final thoughts are: awesome through the gears, great manners in slow speed maneuvers, excellent exhaust note and most of all - sounds like a Harley.
For the record- I stopped by to talk about my 13 Road Glide Ultra tuning issue and a future project of installing a 114 or 117 in my M8. For me - I can confidently say the above combination would and will satisfy my touring bike requirements.
Thanks for your appraisal, good to hear how it performs on the road as well ,great work Daren
I purchased an S&S 124" kit for my 107 Milwaukee Eight test bike, but I had a friend that wanted it, so I installed it on his instead.
His 2018 FLTRXS had a dealer installed 114" stage 4 kit, and we swapped out the pistons/cylinders, along with adding a Bandit clutch and SE Heavy Breather, then retuned.
I have been playing with different mufflers over the last couple of days and here's what it did.
Keep in mind that this is with an out of the box set of SE CNC heads, and SE 64mm TB.
[attach=0]
That's looking good. Do you have a baseline run with the stage 4 kit.
Quote from: BUGLET on November 03, 2018, 12:53:02 PM
That's looking good. Do you have a baseline run with the stage 4 kit.
Thanks. Here it is.
[attach=0]
Thanks. That is a real nice improvement.
The Street Cannons do well up to 3K then the other slip ons take over up to 4500. Did you run it on the street? My bet the Street Cannons felt the best for general riding.
Thanks, 1st chart for a 124 kit i've seen
cool Daren...will your bike be this same recipe? :pop:
Hey D, can you show the same 3 runs with AUC? I'm curious if the Street Cannons beat the FM Street Outlaws.
:up: :up: Great stuff Daren, thanks for post it.
What I find interesting is normally exhaust that gives up bottom end tq will reward with top end hp. In this test we may have something else working as the governor because all three power curves match from 5100 rpm up. It could be cam but a muffler switch will usually help a cam some on top just like it hurts it on the bottom. What air cleaner was used?
SE Heavy Breather
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2018, 05:25:04 AM
Hey D, can you show the same 3 runs with AUC? I'm curious if the Street Cannons beat the FM Street Outlaws.
Sure Robin.
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 04, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2018, 06:03:07 AM
SE Heavy Breather
That maybe the governor right there.
After conversing with people in the know, we have determined that the SE heads are the choke point.
The CR-530 cam has been in several 140+ hp builds, and I pulled the AC element and didn't really gain anything other than more tuning time.
This R&D is fun, and we have only begun to scratch the surface.
Quote from: PoorUB on November 03, 2018, 02:22:23 PM
The Street Cannons do well up to 3K then the other slip ons take over up to 4500. Did you run it on the street? My bet the Street Cannons felt the best for general riding.
UB, I haven't ridden it, only on the dyno trying some different mufflers.
Quote from: Durwood on November 04, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
.Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 04, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2018, 06:03:07 AM
SE Heavy Breather
That maybe the governor right there.
After conversing with people in the know, we have determined that the SE heads are the choke point.
The CR-530 cam has been in several 140+ hp builds, and I pulled the AC element and didn't really gain anything other than more tuning time.
This R&D is fun, and we have only begun to scratch the surface.
Interesting, it has been the general consensuses that those cnc heads flow in the 340-350 cfm range, more than enough to support 150 hp with a proper set-up. I wonder if they may require some cam testing and development along the lines of what Redshift did with the stock castings.
Quote from: Durwood on November 04, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
UB, I haven't ridden it, only on the dyno trying some different mufflers.
Too bad you cant fit a set of Mellows for testing :)
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 04, 2018, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: Durwood on November 04, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
.Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 04, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2018, 06:03:07 AM
SE Heavy Breather
That maybe the governor right there.
After conversing with people in the know, we have determined that the SE heads are the choke point.
The CR-530 cam has been in several 140+ hp builds, and I pulled the AC element and didn't really gain anything other than more tuning time.
This R&D is fun, and we have only begun to scratch the surface.
Interesting, it has been the general consensuses that those cnc heads flow in the 340-350 cfm range, more than enough to support 150 hp with a proper set-up. I wonder if they may require some cam testing and development along the lines of what Redshift did with the stock castings.
Haven't personally seen a build with these heads to crack the 140 plateau.
I was told that stock heads would have made more power on this build, but again this is conjecture and why it's important to test.
We will be trying a set of ported heads on this build sometime in the future. Also noteworthy is that this build isn't squeezed as hard as ones we've seen.
I am checking the CCP tomorrow and will post the results.
Quote from: sfmichael on November 03, 2018, 07:10:29 PM
cool Daren...will your bike be this same recipe? :pop:
The only thing at this point I can tell you with certainty is that the shop mule will be 124". :smiled:
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2018, 08:28:43 AM
Quote from: Durwood on November 04, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
UB, I haven't ridden it, only on the dyno trying some different mufflers.
Too bad you cant fit a set of Mellows for testing :)
I have a set, all I need is the S&S Power Tune dual head pipe. Maybe on my bike. :teeth:
Quote from: Durwood on November 04, 2018, 02:47:05 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 04, 2018, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: Durwood on November 04, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
.Quote from: 1FSTRK on November 04, 2018, 06:33:08 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2018, 06:03:07 AM
SE Heavy Breather
That maybe the governor right there.
After conversing with people in the know, we have determined that the SE heads are the choke point.
The CR-530 cam has been in several 140+ hp builds, and I pulled the AC element and didn't really gain anything other than more tuning time.
This R&D is fun, and we have only begun to scratch the surface.
Interesting, it has been the general consensuses that those cnc heads flow in the 340-350 cfm range, more than enough to support 150 hp with a proper set-up. I wonder if they may require some cam testing and development along the lines of what Redshift did with the stock castings.
Haven't personally seen a build with these heads to crack the 140 plateau.
I was told that stock heads would have made more power on this build, but again this is conjecture and why it's important to test.
We will be trying a set of ported heads on this build sometime in the future. Also noteworthy is that this build isn't squeezed as hard as ones we've seen.
I am checking the CCP tomorrow and will post the results.
As always thanks for all your hard work and for sharing it with us here. With out guys like you we are left with only the advertisers.
What were the build specs on this 124,
Head cc's
gasket thickness
piston volume
deck height
Looking forward to the ccp numbers also
Added
What head pipe did you use for this muffler test?
CCP on this 124 is 191/190. and it feels great on the road.
I have mine apart right now, going 124" with stock heads and throttle body. We are correcting the deck height on it. (.015" in the hole).
Quote from: Durwood on November 09, 2018, 05:50:03 AM
CCP on this 124 is 191/190. and it feels great on the road.
I have mine apart right now, going 124" with stock heads and throttle body. We are correcting the deck height on it. (.015" in the hole).
:baby:
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2018, 05:25:04 AM
Hey D, can you show the same 3 runs with AUC? I'm curious if the Street Cannons beat the FM Street Outlaws.
Here you go Robin.
[attach=0]
Thanks, D. I was hoping to see 16, 27, and 46, like in post #261.
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 13, 2018, 08:21:15 AM
Thanks, D. I was hoping to see 16, 27, and 46, like in post #261.
My mistake. Should have looked at the graph a little closer when I got the run file numbers. :embarrassed:
Let's do this again.
[attach=0]
Thank you Sir. I Appreciate your time and effort on these things!
Now back to my bike. I installed a 124" big bore kit on it, and zero decked the cylinders, as the rear was .019" in the hole and the front was .015" when mocked up.
It now rolls over @ 230/230 CCP, with the static compression @ 11.1:1.
This is a purpose built torque build, which I named "The Tractor", and after riding it yesterday, it lived up to the billing..
Roll on power is nothing short of amazing, just twist the grip and GO!
This is a simple stage 3 build with only the cam, injectors, cylinders and pistons swapped, then a good tune.
Using stock heads and stock throttle body this time around.
[attach=0]
That like good, it should get you moving down the road. You should have no trouble passing now. Great work.
Good stuff Darren. 140 ftlb's at 2500. And affordable :SM:
Quote from: Durwood on November 19, 2018, 08:54:04 AM
Now back to my bike. I installed a 124" big bore kit on it, and zero decked the cylinders, as the rear was .019" in the hole and the front was .015" when mocked up.
It now rolls over @ 230/230 CCP, with the static compression @ 11.1:1.
This is a purpose built torque build, which I named "The Tractor", and after riding it yesterday, it lived up to the billing..
Roll on power is nothing short of amazing, just twist the grip and GO!
This is a simple stage 3 build with only the cam, injectors, cylinders and pistons swapped, then a good tune.
Using stock heads and stock throttle body this time around.
[attach=0]
:up: :up:
You are going to have to get the tailor to put longer sleeves on all your jackets.
Just for a visual could you post the run from this graph http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=95948.msg1216062#msg1216062 (http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=95948.msg1216062#msg1216062)
on the graph under the new 124" run.
Thanks
Can't wait to see your "mule" with head work...you do great work...
very nice Daren :up: :up: :up:
Are you still running the stock clutch with the heavy springs or have you upgraded to something else? Thanks for all the testing & sharing of info :up:
I just switched to a 10 plate clutch pack using the red Barnett springs after this last tuning session..
The 9 plate OE clutch was giving up at 2700. It made more torque on other runs, but the graph wasn't smooth because of clutch slip.
Next up is a larger throttle body.
Quote from: Durwood on December 13, 2018, 02:44:53 PM
I just switched to a 10 plate clutch pack using the red Barnett springs after this last tuning session..
The 9 plate OE clutch was giving up at 2700. It made more torque on other runs, but the graph wasn't smooth because of clutch slip.
Next up is a larger throttle body.
I am still in awe of your numbers from the big bore with the stock TB, we talked about a better manifold and TB way back during your 107" cam testing. The clutch upgrade and a good base line is a great start because you know that new TB was going to walk right through the other one in the middle of your test.
What is your favorite cam between the Tman P200, RS468, and the CR460
I'm really leaning toward the CR460
You're doing some really good compression! Great job! I didn't read through the whole thing. What gear are you doing the pulls in ?
Quote from: Malazan on February 21, 2019, 07:53:04 PM
What is your favorite cam between the Tman P200, RS468, and the CR460
I'm really leaning toward the CR460
The new CR-480 is on the top of the heap. It won't be available for a week or so.
You can't go wrong with the CR-460 or the RS-468 though, the 200 I have not tested.
Quote from: MakoHD on March 06, 2019, 03:52:38 PM
You're doing some really good compression! Great job! I didn't read through the whole thing. What gear are you doing the pulls in ?
6th gear.
Oh hell yeah, I just saw the Dyno for a stock exh 107 with the 480
https://m.facebook.com/1544666332477222/photos/a.1557930651150790/2312630202347494/?type=3&source=48&__tn__=EH-R :baby:
Quote from: Deye76 on January 17, 2017, 12:05:54 PM
Darn good torque, Good looking bike too. Fullsac next?
Ten years ago, we could spend thousands of dollars to soup our motors up to get anything like that. :smileo:
Made a little time for a cam swap and tune on Blue this week. Kept the stock heads and throttle body in the interest of changing one thing at a time. This is with the CR-470.
It still has that snap off the bottom that it had but now carries farther and stronger.
Can't wait to get a TB on it to see where the curve goes from there.
Here's the cam specs.
Intake open 16 Close 40 .470 lift 102LC 236 duration
Ex. Open 60 Close 14 .460 lift 113LC 254 duration
30 degree over lap 107.5LSA
[attach=0]
that is the most HP I have seen with stock TB most are low 120 very nice . From what I have tested thus far 140 seems to be the avg limit of power with stock heads . I have two large cams to test in a 128 will see what they do .
They are an odd duck however. Add a larger TB and you would expect a handsome gain. Not always the case. And ported heads, they should scale right up but again not always so. Darren and Steve, good job on the testing and great results.
Quote from: Durwood on March 29, 2019, 05:26:48 AM
Made a little time for a cam swap and tune on Blue this week. Kept the stock heads and throttle body in the interest of changing one thing at a time. This is with the CR-470.
It still has that snap off the bottom that it had but now carries farther and stronger.
Can't wait to get a TB on it to see where the curve goes from there.
Here's the cam specs.
Intake open 16 Close 40 .470 lift 102LC 236 duration
Ex. Open 60 Close 14 .460 lift 113LC 254 duration
30 degree over lap 107.5LSA
[attach=0,msg1289592]
boy, that's quite an improvement :up:
Quote from: Durwood on March 03, 2018, 02:54:06 AM
[attach=0,msg1216172]
Click on graphs, then maximize for full size image.
Darren, I'm new to the site and am really impressed with the all the work and great data you're posting. :up: After much research I decided on the WM8-22X for my 107 freewheeler which will be installed this Tuesday. Seeing this comparsion chart I'm starting to second guess my choice, but I don't think I'll be disappointed getting rid of the stock cam. Have arlen ness big sucker and CFRs with my power vision. Thanks again for your work... wish I lived a lot closer!
Quote from: Durwood on March 29, 2019, 05:26:48 AM
Made a little time for a cam swap and tune on Blue this week. Kept the stock heads and throttle body in the interest of changing one thing at a time. This is with the CR-470.
It still has that snap off the bottom that it had but now carries farther and stronger.
Can't wait to get a TB on it to see where the curve goes from there.
Here's the cam specs.
Intake open 16 Close 40 .470 lift 102LC 236 duration
Ex. Open 60 Close 14 .460 lift 113LC 254 duration
30 degree over lap 107.5LSA
[attach=0,msg1289592]
Yep that is going to be a lot of fun ! Cant wait !
I got an opportunity to test another cam in my 124 and I really like it. This is with stock heads and throttle body.
[attach=0]
out at 4700 do you think that is Ex ?? Or has the pipe stayed the same and cam swap ? Reason I ask is several of the Comp cams I have tested had an odd section in the curve .
Here is my 124 with the new CR-482 cam, stock heads and throttle body. SE 64 will be the next step, then install the WFO Larry heads.
[attach=0]
Really enjoyed reading through this thread. Lots of great information being shared.
I hope theres more to come
So you've had several cams in this motor - do you have a favorite? :scoot:
Quote from: Durwood on November 15, 2019, 08:57:06 AM
Here is my 124 with the new CR-482 cam, stock heads and throttle body. SE 64 will be the next step, then install the WFO Larry heads.
[attach=0,msg1323056]
When do you plan on testing this with the SE 64? Will Be interesting to see the gain. When do you plan to add the WFO Larry heads and test again. Should be really nice. Cant wait to see results of both.
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 15, 2020, 05:34:05 AM
Quote from: Durwood on November 15, 2019, 08:57:06 AM
Here is my 124 with the new CR-482 cam, stock heads and throttle body. SE 64 will be the next step, then install the WFO Larry heads.
[attach=0,msg1323056]
When do you plan on testing this with the SE 64? Will Be interesting to see the gain. When do you plan to add the WFO Larry heads and test again. Should be really nice. Cant wait to see results of both.
The heads are here, the 64 is on the way. This will be done in a 2-3 day period very soon.
Put the Ol girl through a workout this morning and tuned it with the 64mm SE throttle body and the SE Extreme-Flow manifold.
WFO heads are next.
[attach=0]
how much did it help?
Quote from: Durwood on January 18, 2020, 09:57:13 AM
Put the Ol girl through a workout this morning and tuned it with the 64mm SE throttle body and the SE Extreme-Flow manifold.
WFO heads are next.
[attach=0,msg1330662]
Nice improvement, looks good, and a good torque curve. Can't wait to see it with the WFO heads. What compression are you set at? Keep up the good work.
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 19, 2020, 04:32:51 AM
Quote from: Durwood on January 18, 2020, 09:57:13 AM
Put the Ol girl through a workout this morning and tuned it with the 64mm SE throttle body and the SE Extreme-Flow manifold.
WFO heads are next.
[attach=0,msg1330662]
Nice improvement, looks good, and a good torque curve. Can't wait to see it with the WFO heads. What compression are you set at? Keep up the good work.
11:1 Tuanks
thanks for all the step by step testing your doing and posting the results as you go. True unbias testing. You couldn't ask for more. :up:
I can't wait to see what the difference is after the head change. :smilep:
Quote from: No Cents on January 19, 2020, 06:31:44 AM
thanks for all the step by step testing your doing and posting the results as you go. True unbias testing. You couldn't ask for more. :up:
I can't wait to see what the difference is after the head change. :smilep:
:agree:
Quote from: sfmichael on December 24, 2019, 11:34:17 AM
So you've had several cams in this motor - do you have a favorite? :scoot:
I really like the CR-482 that is currently in it.
Honestly, the feel on the bottom isn't much different than with a shorter cam that blew the torque up early. I guess because there is no way to use all of it without blowing the tire off.
Now instead of hitting the wall early it keeps on pulling to the rev limiter.
Here it is with Larry's heads.
[attach=0]
Well there you go :up: :up:
Quote from: Durwood on January 24, 2020, 11:00:08 AM
Here it is with Larry's heads.
[attach=0,msg1331307]
Very nice. I think you may be right about it not torque not going up imeldatalty, may still be all you can use coming out of the hole. The ones with instant torque seem to blow through the back tire. I like that it just seem to keep pulling and pulling. Good work, nice to see gains of each step.
Really looking hard at using this cam in my 130 build with 12.1 compression. Should have CCP around 228. Should be good to ride cross country.
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 24, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 24, 2020, 11:00:08 AM
Here it is with Larry's heads.
[attach=0,msg1331307]
Very nice. I think you may be right about it not torque not going up imeldatalty, may still be all you can use coming out of the hole. The ones with instant torque seem to blow through the back tire. I like that it just seem to keep pulling and pulling. Good work, nice to see gains of each step.
Really looking hard at using this cam in my 130 build with 12.1 compression. Should have CCP around 228. Should be good to ride cross country.
228 is on the lower end of the ccp spectrum for these. I would have changed pistons while I had the heads off but it would have skewed the results of the one part at a time testing method.
My ccp is only 200.
Do you have any plans to do pistons and up the cap? It's still kinda hard to get my head around the difference in manageable compression on these engines compared to the TC 2 valve head.
Quote from: kd on January 24, 2020, 01:31:07 PM
Do you have any plans to do pistons and up the cap? It's still kinda hard to get my head around the difference in manageable compression on these engines compared to the TC 2 valve head.
Yes, in the future I plan to bump the compression. I have customer builds that are cranking 240-250 without issue.
I would like to get mine up there to see what it would do. :fish:
I can't wait. :fish:
:chop: :chop:
hot digity dog! :up:
your on your way now. The power is there now...with no doubt more coming.
Are you going to try a few different cams with the wfolarry heads?
Do you happen to have the specs on the CR-482 cam?
Quote from: Durwood on January 24, 2020, 01:20:57 PM
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 24, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 24, 2020, 11:00:08 AM
Here it is with Larry's heads.
[attach=0,msg1331307]
Very nice. I think you may be right about it not torque not going up imeldatalty, may still be all you can use coming out of the hole. The ones with instant torque seem to blow through the back tire. I like that it just seem to keep pulling and pulling. Good work, nice to see gains of each step.
Really looking hard at using this cam in my 130 build with 12.1 compression. Should have CCP around 228. Should be good to ride cross country.
228 is on the lower end of the ccp spectrum for these. I would have changed pistons while I had the heads off but it would have skewed the results of the one part at a time testing method.
My ccp is only 200.
My goal is that I can ride the build cross country and not worry about the gas west of the Mississippi, some times 89 octane is the best you can get. I'm usually a high mile rider, over 20K miles a year. This has steered my away from cams with rapid lift of close, want to be easy on valve train.
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 25, 2020, 04:59:53 AM
Quote from: Durwood on January 24, 2020, 01:20:57 PM
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 24, 2020, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: Durwood on January 24, 2020, 11:00:08 AM
Here it is with Larry's heads.
[attach=0,msg1331307]
Very nice. I think you may be right about it not torque not going up imeldatalty, may still be all you can use coming out of the hole. The ones with instant torque seem to blow through the back tire. I like that it just seem to keep pulling and pulling. Good work, nice to see gains of each step.
Really looking hard at using this cam in my 130 build with 12.1 compression. Should have CCP around 228. Should be good to ride cross country.
228 is on the lower end of the ccp spectrum for these. I would have changed pistons while I had the heads off but it would have skewed the results of the one part at a time testing method.
My ccp is only 200.
My goal is that I can ride the build cross country and not worry about the gas west of the Mississippi, some times 89 octane is the best you can get. I'm usually a high mile rider, over 20K miles a year. This has steered my away from cams with rapid lift of close, want to be easy on valve train.
All of the CR cams that I use are very quiet and work well with stock springs.
Quote from: Durwood on January 23, 2020, 01:33:23 PM
Quote from: sfmichael on December 24, 2019, 11:34:17 AM
So you've had several cams in this motor - do you have a favorite? :scoot:
I really like the CR-482 that is currently in it.
Honestly, the feel on the bottom isn't much different than with a shorter cam that blew the torque up early. I guess because there is no way to use all of it without blowing the tire off.
Now instead of hitting the wall early it keeps on pulling to the rev limiter.
To add to my statement. I am not dissing the early torque cam at all.
Rolling on effortlessly on the interstate in 6th gear, plus the awesome feel it has riding the two lane roads. It's definitely a pleasure to ride when in that configuration.
Do you have a spec for the 482?
Quote from: Sunny Jim on January 27, 2020, 03:06:46 PM
Do you have a spec for the 482?
Int. 480 17/49 246 dur 106 lc
Exh. 470 61.5/13.5 255 dur 114 lc
Quote from: No Cents on January 24, 2020, 05:07:58 PM
hot digity dog! :up:
your on your way now. The power is there now...with no doubt more coming.
Are you going to try a few different cams with the wfolarry heads?
Yes. It may be a bit, mostly because I want to ride it some before I take it back apart.
Can somebody post the compression these cams should be set at? I know some cams run better than others and it would probably help everyone in making decisions based on what they currently have or future setup.
I was just curious if you were going to try anything else from the stage your currently sitting at. I'd ride the piss out of it the way it sits right now. :SM: Looking at the latest dyno sheet, it shows me the bike pulls like a freight train "smoothly" all the way up thru the rpm band with the current cam. It almost looks like a pro-charged engine dyno sheet by the way it's pulling. :up: I'm sure you could get a cam that would deliver more torque off the bottom...but does anyone really need any more torque if your riding it on the street. :nix: It will no doubt melt the rear tire right now as it sits...if you wanted to.
I'm impressed with it. :chop:
Quote from: Jmd897 on January 28, 2020, 07:53:33 AM
Can somebody post the compression these cams should be set at? I know some cams run better than others and it would probably help everyone in making decisions based on what they currently have or future setup.
It is currently 11.2:1. CCP is only 200. There is more in it with a compression increase.
Quote from: No Cents on January 28, 2020, 07:54:34 AM
I was just curious if you were going to try anything else from the stage your currently sitting at. I'd ride the piss out of it the way it sits right now. :SM: Looking at the latest dyno sheet, it shows me the bike pulls like a freight train "smoothly" all the way up thru the rpm band with the current cam. It almost looks like a pro-charged engine dyno sheet by the way it's pulling. :up: I'm sure you could get a cam that would deliver more torque off the bottom...but does anyone really need any more torque if your riding it on the street. :nix: It will no doubt melt the rear tire right now as it sits...if you wanted to.
I'm impressed with it. :chop:
A D&D Billet Cat will raise the left side of the graph
I have witnessed it in every configuration.
As far as cams go, Wes is already working on another for me to test. We will see where it goes from here. :SM:
Here is how it shook out. Stock heads and TB. Stock heads with SE 64 TB. Ported heads with SE 64.
[attach=0]
great info and testing - thanks :up: :beer:
Looks like if you are driving normal it's not worth porting. Good work.
Quote from: Buglet on February 12, 2020, 05:20:40 AM
Looks like if you are driving normal it's not worth porting. Good work.
Thanks. Yes, 135tq/145hp with stock heads is great.
Is the crank stock ? Curious of how many Dyno runs and overall miles
Quote from: kcbike on March 17, 2020, 04:43:58 AM
Is the crank stock ? Curious of how many Dyno runs and overall miles
Stock crank. 13,000 total miles and probably 5k of those on the dyno. 3k miles on the 124 kit.
Very nice...your methodical testing is greatly appreciated. Casey
Quote from: kcbike on March 17, 2020, 06:02:05 PM
Very nice...your methodical testing is greatly appreciated. Casey
You're welcome. Herko devised the bulk of the steps that are shown in this thread and I really thank him for keeping me disciplined during all of this.
While we were testing on the 107" stage 2 level, I saw the big bore builds starting to come out and was very tempted to make a wrong turn but remained on course.
I am forever thankful for the extensive data that we were able to collect during this process which began early in 2017.
There will be more testing with added compression, exhaust and cams in the not too distant future.
Daren
Quote from: Durwood on January 28, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
A D&D Billet Cat will raise the left side of the graph
I have witnessed it in every configuration.
You had that on prior to the Fuelmoto Crossover setup if I followed right?
Will the Billet Cat also carry out the right also? Myabe gain? TIA :up:
Quote from: Durwood on March 18, 2020, 06:42:51 AM
Quote from: kcbike on March 17, 2020, 06:02:05 PM
Very nice...your methodical testing is greatly appreciated. Casey
You're welcome. Herko devised the bulk of the steps that are shown in this thread and I really thank him for keeping me disciplined during all of this.
While we were testing on the 107" stage 2 level, I saw the big bore builds starting to come out and was very tempted to make a wrong turn but remained on course.
I am forever thankful for the extensive data that we were able to collect during this process which began early in 2017.
There will be more testing with added compression, exhaust and cams in the not too distant future[/b].
Daren
:up: :up: :up:
Quote from: cheech on March 18, 2020, 09:45:41 AM
Quote from: Durwood on January 28, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
A D&D Billet Cat will raise the left side of the graph
I have witnessed it in every configuration.
You had that on prior to the Fuelmoto Crossover setup if I followed right?
Will the Billet Cat also carry out the right also? Myabe gain? TIA :up:
Currently, I am of the opinion that the current D&D offering is finished at 150 horsepower SAE.
Quote from: Durwood on March 18, 2020, 11:06:26 AM
Quote from: cheech on March 18, 2020, 09:45:41 AM
Quote from: Durwood on January 28, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
A D&D Billet Cat will raise the left side of the graph
I have witnessed it in every configuration.
You had that on prior to the Fuelmoto Crossover setup if I followed right?
Will the Billet Cat also carry out the right also? Myabe gain? TIA :up:
Currently, I am of the opinion that the current D&D offering is finished at 150 horsepower SAE.
So then what? Burns? Any others?
Daren, I followed your work very closely while you were testing the CR-482. After watching your work and talking with a Friend and Don who was doing my heads, I selected the CR-482 with more compression. It came out very nice and I am very pleased. I have the build posted in the Dyno Runs section once approved by Admin.
Thank you for all your testing, very helpful.
Quote from: FLSTFIDave on March 25, 2020, 04:31:31 AMDaren, I followed your work very closely while you were testing the CR-482. After watching your work and talking with a Friend and Don who was doing my heads, I selected the CR-482 with more compression. It came out very nice and I am very pleased. I have the build posted in the Dyno Runs section once approved by Admin.
Thank you for all your testing, very helpful.
I am curious about your engine temp out on the highway!
Quote from: Sunny Jim on January 07, 2022, 06:45:28 AMQuote from: FLSTFIDave on March 25, 2020, 04:31:31 AMDaren, I followed your work very closely while you were testing the CR-482. After watching your work and talking with a Friend and Don who was doing my heads, I selected the CR-482 with more compression. It came out very nice and I am very pleased. I have the build posted in the Dyno Runs section once approved by Admin.
Thank you for all your testing, very helpful.
I am curious about your engine temp out on the highway!
My engine temperature out on the highway is very close to a stock 117 or maybe slightly warmer. The rear cylinder does get hot, I do not think it is as hot as the twin cams I have built.