Can an ECM be changed to avoid warranty refusal?

[Ken R]

I haven't had a bike that wasn't tuned using Power Vision in something like 10 years (3 motorcycles).  Now that the Motor Company voids warranties if they find that the ECM has been tuned by an unauthorized device, I'm afraid to have mine tuned.  It's under warranty for the next 5-1/2 years and my experience with the extended warranty has been fabulous on my previous two motors. 

I'm trying to learn all I can before buying a license for my PV.   I have time scheduled with my tuner on Monday.

I was wondering, could a person buy a spare ECM and simply put it into the motorcycle before taking it for any warranty work?  Do they come with the current tune? 

Currently, my motor is tuned using Screamin Eagle Pro tuner from the dealership.  Question #2:  Can the "canned" tunes for a Pro Tuner be modified?

Hope this is the right forum.  I put it here because this is M8-relative and not general tuning-relative conversation. 

Ken

[remington007]

The ECU stores vehicle mileage, Its own ID number as well as the serial number of the bike. (Who know what else) Now if you buy a new ECU it would need to be flashed by the dealer and married to the rest of the bike. Pre can-buss married to the TSSM. I think it would be a hassle to switch back and forth not to mention the mileage deal.

[Ohio HD]

Just doing that would probably void the warranty. As stated, they would know anyway.

[rigidthumper]

SE tunes have limited adjustment, and will keep you within MOCO/ESP warranty guidelines, as long as it's registered by the selling dealer on the SWR. If you want to keep the warranty, follow their rules.

[Coyote]

If you want to keep the warranty, follow their rules.

[BVHOG]

SE tunes have limited adjustment, and will keep you within MOCO/ESP warranty guidelines, as long as it's registered by the selling dealer on the SWR. If you want to keep the warranty, follow their rules.

That pretty much sums it up, when we mod our bikes then shouldn't we ourselves or our builders take some warranty responsibility?

[PoorUB]

I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.

[jrgreene1968]

I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.

I agree. Back when programmers started making big power on diesel pickups, all the companies were trying to hide there footprint so as not to void warranty. Kinda hard to expect Cummins to warranty a engine you just added 200 hp to

[Ohio HD]

If you want to keep the warranty, follow their rules.

       

And that's why I've never bought a new HD, and probably never will. I'd void the warranty within a year or sooner. If I did make changes, then I own the changes and the bike. 

[98fxstc]

Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

[Ken R]

I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.

The extended warranty purchases are a profit center for them. 

Apparently if you tune your motor with PowerVision, you're probably going to have voided the entire powertrain warranty.   That kind of sucks.  Mechanical things break; not necessarily because of a tune. 

I haven't had a motor that wasn't tuned for at least 10 to 12 years.  It's going to hard to refrain to protect my warranty and extended service plan.   
The canned maps don't take into account variances in components (like the injectors).  It gave me a good feeling knowing that my tunes were made using the components on my motor, not some lab components. 

So I'm thinking that tuners like PowerVision and TTS are going to be a thing of the past.  That there may not be enough owners of new motorcycles that want to risk their warranties that cost thousands.  And with the two major problems that the M8 engines are having (sumping and oil transfer from the transmission to the primary) the warranty seems to be very important. 

To that end, I wonder if a refused extended warranty because of non-Harley tuner can be terminated with unused portion being returned to the purchaser. 

[Ken R]

Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

Can we trust that? 

And if they can do it, why can't Dynojet? 

[Ohio HD]

The truth, I feel it's just being dishonest anyway. You buy something that has a warranty with conditions, and by buying it you agree to those conditions. Even if what is stated in warranty isn't what is believed to be a cause to another issue, you still agree when you buy it.

[kd]

Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

Can we trust that? 

And if they can do it, why can't Dynojet? 

I believe it was Steve that fixed the MOCO's earlier tuner problems (possibly just before TTS tuners were around) and IIRC he may have also done the SE tuner for them.  He may have the background to understand the key.

[Rusticwater]

Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

I've been reading this forum (and some others) pretty much on a daily basis for the past 9 years. As a TTS user (v1.57 ) to the best of my knowledge, it's never been independently verified since Harley settled with the EPA.

I assume that if it were true, it would be a huge marketing advantage that would be touted at every possibility...but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I've also read that regardless of the current state of the ECM, it can be detected if the ECM has ever been flashed, but maybe not necessarily by what.

It would be interesting to set up a controlled experiment to put these rumors to rest once and for all...

[98fxstc]

Steve Cole says TTS leaves no footprint when the oem tune is returned to the ecm.
Apparently not so with other flash tuners.
Your bike is going to be running pretty crappy when you take it in though.

I've been reading this forum (and some others) pretty much on a daily basis for the past 9 years. As a TTS user (v1.57 ) to the best of my knowledge, it's never been independently verified since Harley settled with the EPA.

I assume that if it were true, it would be a huge marketing advantage that would be touted at every possibility...but that doesn't appear to be the case.

I've also read that regardless of the current state of the ECM, it can be detected if the ECM has ever been flashed, but maybe not necessarily by what.

It would be interesting to set up a controlled experiment to put these rumors to rest once and for all...

I think Steve Cole knows more about the HD ecm than anyone
kd is pretty close to the true facts
Don't need a controlled experiment
it will only take one to prove him wrong

Don't see the need for a controlled experiment

[eddfive]

I just went through this on a 2018 CVO. The Power Vision can put the stock flash back in the bike to get around the warranty. If you have a Street Tuner, and the bike has been flashed with it, Power Vision allows you to put the exact Cal ID that is in the ECU back in. The new Digital Tech screens they look for will show ST cal ID, that the bike was tuned with Street Tuner and will give the flash date. The mistake I made was putting newer ST cal ID in the PV and when dealer/MOCO read screens the 2018 CVO showed new ST ID plus not tuned and original factory flash date. If you do not have a Street Tuner as long as the factory cal id is used, it will show not tuned and original flash date, and the Power Train Warranty will not be voided. The MOCO has updated the Digital Tech software n the last year or so to look for more stuff. I have confirmed all of this with DynoJet as well.

[rigidthumper]

And today on FB, I see this:

[Slider1950]

I just went through this on a 2018 CVO. The Power Vision can put the stock flash back in the bike to get around the warranty. If you have a Street Tuner, and the bike has been flashed with it, Power Vision allows you to put the exact Cal ID that is in the ECU back in. The new Digital Tech screens they look for will show ST cal ID, that the bike was tuned with Street Tuner and will give the flash date. The mistake I made was putting newer ST cal ID in the PV and when dealer/MOCO read screens the 2018 CVO showed new ST ID plus not tuned and original factory flash date. If you do not have a Street Tuner as long as the factory cal id is used, it will show not tuned and original flash date, and the Power Train Warranty will not be voided. The MOCO has updated the Digital Tech software n the last year or so to look for more stuff. I have confirmed all of this with DynoJet as well.

.    ?

[FSG]

Can an ECM be changed to avoid warranty refusal?

Yes, No, Maybe  .......  I've not looked into it, but if done wouldn't that then be a case of Fraud?

And if you read through the Case 1:16-cv-01687-EGS  USofA   vs   HD and Subsidiaries  noting what HD are required to do and report, HD is going to take all steps available to then to see if a bike/ECM has been modified/changed and refuse warranty accordingly and in doing so ensuring their collective arsms (management) stay out of the wringer.

For me I either leave the bike stock OR just kiss goodbye to the warranty and modify/tune away.

   

[98fxstc]

Can an ECM be changed to avoid warranty refusal?

Yes, No, Maybe  .......  I've not looked into it, but if done wouldn't that then be a case of Fraud?

And if you read through the Case 1:16-cv-01687-EGS  USofA   vs   HD and Subsidiaries  noting what HD are required to do and report, HD is going to take all steps available to then to see if a bike/ECM has been modified/changed and refuse warranty accordingly and in doing so ensuring their collective arsms (management) stay out of the wringer.

For me I either leave the bike stock OR just kiss goodbye to the warranty and modify/tune away.

Agree 100%

I like to improve the performance of any bike that I own and make it go
but in saying that, I have never had a new bike with warranty to worry about.
I guess it is becoming more of an issue now with the M8's and the known problems that they have , particularly the sumping which has destroyed engines.

[BVHOG]

The truth, I feel it's just being dishonest anyway. You buy something that has a warranty with conditions, and by buying it you agree to those conditions. Even if what is stated in warranty isn't what is believed to be a cause to another issue, you still agree when you buy it.

Why is this so hard to understand?  You buy it, you mod it for yourself and it's yours after that.   The problem I see is there is definitely an issue with the M8 oiling system/design. All the electronics in the world won't change that engineering flaw in the hard parts. In fact most modifications are making these bikes more reliable not less but then again how is the MoCo supposed to know which is being done correctly and which is not.   Maybe it needs to come down to anti tamper tags, maybe even heat patches to see if you overheated in traffic to deny warranty.  Part of the allure of the Harley Davidson motorcycle is to be able to personalize it for yourself. The MoCo has made their living off this for years and in that time have paid many bogus warranty claims just to keep good public relations. Taking this away right or wrong will cost sales.

[Ohio HD]

The truth, I feel it's just being dishonest anyway. You buy something that has a warranty with conditions, and by buying it you agree to those conditions. Even if what is stated in warranty isn't what is believed to be a cause to another issue, you still agree when you buy it.

Why is this so hard to understand?  You buy it, you mod it for yourself and it's yours after that.   The problem I see is there is definitely an issue with the M8 oiling system/design. All the electronics in the world won't change that engineering flaw in the hard parts. In fact most modifications are making these bikes more reliable not less but then again how is the MoCo supposed to know which is being done correctly and which is not.   Maybe it needs to come down to anti tamper tags, maybe even heat patches to see if you overheated in traffic to deny warranty.  Part of the allure of the Harley Davidson motorcycle is to be able to personalize it for yourself. The MoCo has made their living off this for years and in that time have paid many bogus warranty claims just to keep good public relations. Taking this away right or wrong will cost sales.

I don't know either. I'm all for making the bike run better, cooler, etc. But I realize it's my baby once I do that.

I just bought a new truck, I was on a RAM truck forum, just looking around to see if there were any bugs waiting to happen based on others experiences. Guys were pointing me to this tuner, and these headers, and what ever you can think of. All of these things will void warranty, and I'm not interested anyway.

My bikes are my toys, and I would do what ever I pleased with them, but I wouldn't expect the MOCO to take care of issues once I cross the bridge to modified against warranty.

[JMHD]

I have never understood why HD would warranty a modified motorcycle to begin with!

I just take may chances. If I had to ride a completely stock HD, I wouldn't.

The extended warranty purchases are a profit center for them. 

Apparently if you tune your motor with PowerVision, you're probably going to have voided the entire powertrain warranty.   That kind of sucks.  Mechanical things break; not necessarily because of a tune. 

I haven't had a motor that wasn't tuned for at least 10 to 12 years.  It's going to hard to refrain to protect my warranty and extended service plan.   
The canned maps don't take into account variances in components (like the injectors).  It gave me a good feeling knowing that my tunes were made using the components on my motor, not some lab components. 

So I'm thinking that tuners like PowerVision and TTS are going to be a thing of the past.  That there may not be enough owners of new motorcycles that want to risk their warranties that cost thousands.  And with the two major problems that the M8 engines are having (sumping and oil transfer from the transmission to the primary) the warranty seems to be very important. 

To that end, I wonder if a refused extended warranty because of non-Harley tuner can be terminated with unused portion being returned to the purchaser.

If your extended warranty is denied or cancelled because of an aftermarket tuner or modification you do not get your warranty plan money back.

[Hossamania]

I'm not a fan of extended warranties. I've never collected on any, never really needed one. I know, some have benefitted from them, but my guess is the majority do not.
I had one on a Jeep back in '85, you'd think that one would have been a good call, $1500 for five years. I think I collected about $350 in repairs. It had a $50 deductable, that jeep ate u-joints, they fixed them every time, $50 per u-joint, a day in the shop, a ride back and forth, pain in the ass. Turns out I could do them myself in an hour for $9.

[Hossamania]

I got a little off topic there. Having two ecms to cheat and try to keep warranty seems off putting in the ways mentioned, fraud, the constant changing of the unit, etc. You must travel with it and change it on the side of the road if you have a problem and need it towed in. Not worth it to me, if I modify it and tune it, that's how I want it to run. I do it with full knowledge of the consequences.

[jmorton10]

LOL, I have purchased two new Harleys over the years (last time in 2002) & with both I made mods that would void the warranty in less than a week.

I have never once taken my bike to a dealer to be worked on for any reason so I could care less about a warranty..........

~John

[Ken R]

I'm on my 4th Electra Glide Ultra since 2002.  We've tuned the 2002, 2010, 2013.  I'm afraid to do anything at all to the 2019 Limited.

2002, no warranty.  I had about $1,500 in out-of-warranty expense that would have been much more had I not made the repairs myself.  Maybe 3 times or more as much.
2010, 6 years total warranty.  The cost of the dealer-fixed warranty items exceeded the $1,350 cost of the ESP. 
2013, 6 years total warranty.  The cost of the dealer-fixed warranty items FAR EXCEEDED the $1,600 cost of the ESP.  New engine (minus the cases) a couple of months ago was $5,000 alone.  I also suffered a half dozen throttle by wire failures, a Harmon Kardon radio failure, a clutch pack failure, and several other covered failures totalling over $7,500! 

I bought the ESP for my 2019 Limited because of my experiences with the ESP on the prior two motorcycles.  It cost about $1,800. 
I can fix just about anything that breaks myself.  But the dealership searches for other items while it's in the shop and fixes everything whether it has totally failed or not. 

There are other reasons beyond warranty reimbursement for maintaining the ESP.  Namely, HOG Road-America has much better benefits should a covered motor break down  on a trip.   I travel maybe 10,000 miles a year more than 100 miles from home.  It's comforting to know that my out-of-pocket expense to get towed to a dealer and repaired so I can continue my trip will cover most expenses.  No esp after the initial 2 years and the rider gets no help.  Trips are expensive.  Being able to resume is a good thing.

Quite honestly, the M8 motor is as powerful as I need.  It's heads and shoulders over the TC-88 in my 2002 that couldn't climb a long Interstate hill without slowing down (WOT). 
The 2010 and 2013 tunes were simply to get the most efficiency out of my motor.  (103, CR575 cam, CVO mufflers with Fulsac baffles, and SE air cleaner).  When we compared gas mileage during trip fill-ups, I wanted to snicker at the others. 

I would like to try the Screamin' Eagle High Flow exhaust system.  But I won't spend that kind of money on a new kit without hearing it. Sound is important.  Not loud, but deep. 

So for now, I'm leaving it stock.  With the two major issues with the M8 (and maybe 3 issues if one includes the 3rd gear stripping thing), the warranty for this motorcycle could be more valuable than the rest. 

Ken

[Ancient]

I haven't had a bike that wasn't tuned using Power Vision in something like 10 years (3 motorcycles).  Now that the Motor Company voids warranties if they find that the ECM has been tuned by an unauthorized device, I'm afraid to have mine tuned.  It's under warranty for the next 5-1/2 years and my experience with the extended warranty has been fabulous on my previous two motors. 
Ken

So, if we look at it from a different perspective, your other 3 bikes should have been denied coverage also, correct? I realize you're trying to find a way around the new moco procedures but look at it this way, you porked them on the other 3 bikes repairs so your ahead for awhile yet. Congrats.

[Txwezl]

The only possible way is to use a Tmax which replaces the stock ecm and if a warranty issue arises then switch back to the original one.

[JMHD]

I would say the safest way and least amount of stress when traveling would be stock or the screaming eagle high flow exhaust with an air cleaner and the street tuner. The high flow exhaust has decibel killers that can be removed with three rivets exposing threaded inserts that you can screw the endplate back on with. It is by no means loud but it has a nice tone when riding, another bonus is it moves the cat to the mufflers so you don't cook your leg. Just my thoughts, because riding an m8 without warranty right now would be stressful enough. Hope that helps.